Bonus: One Belt, One Road, Part 2

South Asia, Central Asia. So yeah, quite interesting. Well, it's been quite a right that the show starts in Mumbai, and I thought it was actually really very interesting about you know, how India is sort of resisting the Chinese Belton Road innovations or initialve if so, tell us just a little bit about what what's happening with with India and how India used this. I think India is pretty uncomfortable, pretty apprehensive. China's putting a lot of money into infrastructure

and India's immediate neighbors. We're talking about the likes of Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Moldives and as you know, David, some of these borders are pretty contentious and we've seen political tensions between Indian Pakistan, for example, that's been going on for years. So India fields pretty uncomfortable. China is helping to develop these countries which it could have trouble with, you know, down the road, and there's also the risk of debt.

If these countries go into debt, then India could be in trouble as well, right right, right, But you know, some of the shots that we see in the program are just stunning. But there's one where you're in in the Mumbai railway station and I just wondered to myself and I saw all these crowd surging around you. You know, what was it like actually doing that stand up? Oh my god, it was crazy. It was actually very facult. It was rush hour. It was so crowded you could

hardly see me. I was. I was really lost in the sea of morning commuters. We actually had to wait for a time when it eased a little so I could be in shot, you know, even know what I mean, even if it's just for for a moment. It was difficult because security was also tight, so we had to find that perfect moment where you could see me and security wasn't really looking at us. So we got creative and it was one take. We didn't have any other options. Yes, it was one probably had to do it in one take.

I could certainly see you because you were wearing one of your trademark eye popping colored drisk That's just that's a funny one because you know, I thought I was gonna pop, but you know, if you know Indian and Indians, there were a lot of colors as well, so I didn't really pop that much, but popped enough to be seen on camp. But tell me, look at you also came out with some extraordinary statistics about India's rail travel

and India's rail network. Just give us a little taste of what were you know what it's it's pretty mind blowing, right if you take a look at the numbers. I mean, in his railway one of the largest railway networks in the world. I didn't know that until I did this series. If you put the tracks back to back, then they will circle the globe one and a half times. And if that is not enough, eight billion passengers a year. That's the official number. The unofficial could be even more.

You're not even the ones riding on the roof ron, yes, the roof everywhere. I mean, you know, it's amazing how many people they can pack in that in that in the in each what's that cubicle or each box you know. But when the interesting thing also that came out of there was that actually there is Chinese investment going into infrastructure in India. That you mentioned that the aii B is investing in in the in the in the metro

in Mumbai. The ai B of being, of course, the Asia Infrastructure Investment Bank, which we started up by China a couple of years ago. Well, yeah, in fact, India is one of the founding members. I think they have twenty one founding members. And AIB has actually committed a lot of money I think in access of you know, three billion dollars to invest in India and infrastructure projects. And I think part of the reason for that is

that India's infrastructure needs are so great. I mean, India can't put the bill itself, so it needs a lot of help. So it gets AIB, It gets you know, funding from the Asian Development the World Bank, so it gets a lot of help. And I be being the new kid on the blog in terms of you know, financing, being able to finance these projects. It's it's come to

India's rescue in a way. There was also an interesting point made by one of the guests who you interviewed, um who drew the distinction between investing for commercial reasons, you know, investing in these infrastructure projects for commercial reasons and strategic reasons. Just tae that out a bit. What

was that about? Well, I guess you know, like if you take a look at the Belt and Road initiative, there are some people who say that China's in it because as strategic reasons, it wants to be in some of these countries because it wants to be there for political and strategic reasons. Um So people are pretty cautious. It's not just about economics, it's not just about helping a country get to where it wants to be, get to the growth it wants to be at, but also

for China's own reasons. I think that that is the distinction that make I think a lot of people also talk about the case of Jibouty, where China's invested a lot of money and infrastructure about it also has its first military base there. Well, you're right, and you know, in a way, you know, if not China, then who if you talk about Jibouti, would the US want to

invest infrastructure there? You know, so as much as you want to be suspicious of China, you also have to think who ealth if not China, well, Kazakhstan noting the doing the investment, but who has in terms of a completely different story in terms of whether they're going to welcome uh, you know, in terms of welcoming China's investment or not. And I have to say those opening shots of Astana are absolutely extraordinary. I was just amazed by how modern this city is. What was it like there?

You were surprised, I was really surprised. I mean it was interesting to see because it's so desperate. You know, on the one hand, you have the Kazak steps, you know, vast open mouth and mouth and mouth of grassland where sheep, cows, horses, grape like in Mongolia. Really yeah, right, and you know you almost can see, I don't know, you can see how it was how it was before. And there on the other hand, you have such amazing modern infrastructure, the skyline.

It's it's just amazing. It's it's so futuristic. So it was really kind of, um, I don't know, it was a bit mind boggling. It was desperate and away. I couldn't I couldn't really put the two together. But it is a very interesting space a very interesting country and a country we should all be watching because I think it is on its way to making its mark, if not you know, in Central Asia, but the rest of the world as well. Kazakhstan seems to be really buying

into the whole project. Though you know, some of the other numbers that came out were pretty boggling. Twenty eight billion dollars being invested on fifty one projects. How is it changing Kazakhstan's economy has I think it's changing the

economy in a huge way. If you walk around the city, if you just walk around the streets, you'd be surprised to see, you know, branded shops you get, you know, your max Mara, you have your I didn't quite see Chanelle, but I saw a lot of the branded goods there, and I think that is a reflection of how the country has grown, and I think it has aspirations to grow even faster. I mean, this is a country pretty

much based on oil and gas. I think that's driving the economy, but it also wants to be I guess the middleman, you know, in terms of trade, because a lot of countries, if you want to move your goods from east to west, Kazakhstan is possibly is where it's

possibly the middle ground, the meeting point. Yeah. Well, I mean another thing that came out actually was a conversation with the deputy Foreign Minister who said that the volume of container traffic going through Kazakhstan has doubled every year for the past seven years and that they're looking to take five billion a year and revenues is just mind boggling. Yeah, and and it's precisely what we talked about Kazakhstan being the buckle of the belt and Road, so you can

kind of visualize the role it plays. I mean, that's that's one side of it. The other side is that it wants to be I guess, the hub for financial markets, capital markets. I mean, this is a new ambition. I think it started maybe about five years ago when UH President neural Nur Sultan as A Byef by the way, he's been the only president of the country has had um you know, he he came up with this planned this vision to make Kazakhstan play a regional role and

you know that and trade. I think that's what's going to drive Kazakhstan going forward. It's a pretty interesting, I guess ambition because you never ever think Kazakhstan was going to be a financial hub, right, I mean when you think Kazakhstan, what do you think of definitely not a financial hub. It wants to be a hub for Islamic finance, for instance. So it is a role it is really pursuing.

And so that's that brings me back to the question I had actually about the opening shots when you go into the into the Kazakhstan part, because you've got these drones that are flying over. I think that's a new international financial center, right with that big circular building. Well,

you're right, it's it's huge from whatever what I understand. Well, I mean to those who are listening to this podcast, I can absolutely recommend that you take a look at at this Built and Road episode because of some of the pictures are just amazing, the dry port for example. Actually we don't even know whether we were allowed to have drones, but we did anyways, um, because I think it's the only way we can show how immense the place really is. I mean, you don't get a sense

of kazakhstann until you see it from the sky. I mean that that drone shot. I mean, if you don't have that drone shot. You can never imagine how huge and VARs and you know, the potential of the country just really quite quite quite quite extraordinary. Now, from Kazakhstan, we go to Southeast Asia and the next time I see you, you're in Bangkok standing in the middle of a of a road. The places that they get you

to stand as quite extraordinary sometimes. But tell me more about Thailand and how this sort fits into the whole built and road strategy. I think the Belton Road is applicable not just to Talent, but the rest of Southeast Asia. I think, as you can imagine, most of the countries here in Southeast Asia, emerging economies in need, in desperate

need of infrastructure. I think the countries here need in access and I don't know, I think, uh, the number, the exact number escapes me, but a few hundred billion dollars. So that's the magnitude of what is needed in terms of infrastructure in Southeast Asia. And Thialand is just one of them. I think as it pursues growth, it also needs to address its infrastructure needs, which are kind of bursting at the team's old. It needs to move more goods,

it needs to move more people across the country. So you know, this is where bodies like organizations like a I be coming to effect again, I mean coming to play. They provide some kind of funding so that infrastructure can be built. I think that the Philippine Finance Secretary made a good point because he says that in the Philippines, for example, we're not building airports and hoping people will come to them. We're building airports because we are absolutely

bursting at the scenes. And I suppose he's making the distinction against say the airport that was built in Sri Lanka, which I believe Harvard gets any airplanes coming to it, and the port there as well, which has very few ships visiting every week. So as you say the Southeast Asian situation is we need infrastructure because our capacity is so tight. Well, you're right, Um, even take at the Philippines. Just take a look at the airport. I mean it's

it's really old. It's not meeting demands. And he made that point precisely. Each country really has to look at it at its own interests, and right now it's trying to meet the needs of the people a rising middle class. Uh, And that story is Southeast Asia really the rise of the middle class in everybody now is more mobile. People want to move, so infrastructure like roads, railways, airports really need to be upgraded. It has been slow for the

Philippines in particular. I think infrastructure projects have been slow to get off the ground, uh, and they've run into all sorts of issues, and that is quite a reflection on what's happening in emerging markets. Indonesia is another country in need of infrastructure but having a lot of trouble getting these infrastructure projects off the ground. Yeah. Well, I suppose we have to, like say, it's not completely smooth sailing. We've also it just had the new Prime Minister in

Malaysia pushing back on some Chinese infrastructure projects. That has to do with debt as well. I think where Malaysia's concern. Uh. They're looking at a huge debt which was not expected, which was passed on from the previous government. UH. Martin Mohammad, the Prime Minister, has had to review all these projects with China because it's costing the country a lot of money. And by reviewing, I think he's kind of delaying most

of these projects. He can't take on both these projects right now because they just don't have the capacity financially, so that will have to wait. But in terms of infrastructure needs, I mean even Malaysia has to build these infrastructure if it wants to remain one of the tigers in Southeast Asia. Well, the other I suppose you have other point is that China looks on this as a decades long project. It's not something it's going to be happening,

and they're in lies, and therein lies the risk. I think infrastructure projects are so long and people are reluctant to because there are changes in governments there it's you know, when it comes to imaging markets, you see changes every other year, sometimes in terms of for you know, who's in power, and policies change, and there in lies the

risk has Thanks very much for speaking to us. That brings us to the end of our second podcast on the Built and Road series of Limburger is running at the moment, but next time we're going to be talking about episode three, which takes us all the way to Africa. Thanks for listening, guys. M