YOU HAVE A VERY SOFT VOICE, SUSAN-Susan Fensten

its permutations and cruelest forms. A story begins with Susan Fenstone's online search for her father's family asserts that soon turns into a two year, frightening odyssey of internet stalking and threats when a posting on a genealogy message board brings her into contact with what she thinks are distant cousins, but what turns out to be a through email correspondence with her new family, evidence of mental illness, dark family secrets,

a struggle over wealth, and bizarre criminal histories emerge. She quickly becomes the focus of sexual obsession and suspicion, and her life is completely turned upside down. She soon becomes a target of dozens of frightening characters, including real, verifiable, convicted sex offenders, in an elaborate cyber hoax that includes

threats of kidnap, apping, murder, rape, torture, and cannibalism. Remarkable in its complexity, this story of Internet stalking is also a sinister and shocking journal of madness, described by the FBI as a case in a category by itself. This book is a story about the Internet, the search for family, a friendship, and a journey into the underbelly of American crime that raises questions about safety online and pushes the boundaries of our perceptions of what is real and what

is not. The book that we're featuring this sevening is you have a very soft voice, Susan, A shocking true story of Internet stalking with my special guest, publicist and author, Susan Fensten. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for a green toi's interview. Susan Fensten.

a creative challenge. It's a very tough story. It's a bit of a jungle with twists and turns and subplots. It was difficult to write, but in doing so I was able to understand what happened to me even better because for a long time I really wasn't able to understand what happened to me. It was just too complex, too over my head, and I was just too close to it. Of course, it's a lot of it takes

place online and in the writing of the book. I started it about ten years ago and I wrote twenty five chapters in about four months, and I was shopping it around trying to get attention for it, admittedly taking a big risk as an unknown with a wild story signing. It frustrated and got turned down by a very big agent. So I actually put the book away for three years and I just didn't want to finish it. I didn't

want to deal with it. I had a lot going on at work, I was very busy, and I just thought, oh, I just don't want to deal with this anymore. And

that three years, something really amazing happened. It was the emergence of social media Facebook, Twitter, etc. I wasn't on any of that, and what started to sort of I realized after three years when I decided to finish the book, was that the world had changed and any concern that I had about strange happenings online and real real life drama taking place on the internet were dispelled because the world had really changed. The Internet had happened, and everything

was changed forever. So it was kind of an interesting genesis of laying fallow and then returning to the crime, the book of the Crime, and finishing it and deciding just to publish it once and for all.

City to study fashion illustration at Parsons. And when she came to New York City in nineteen fifty nine, she met my father, John, who was trying his hand at acting, and he was a very talented person, very interesting person, and he was at the Actors Studio with the Strasburgs

and was making some headway. Had managed to do some Playhouse ninety, which is in a critically acclaimed live television program from the nineteen fifties, and my mother and he just fell in love and had my sister, and then I came along, and by the time I came along,

things had kind of started to fall apart. He was having trouble dealing with the pressure of having children and being married and maybe didn't have any other skills, and acting, of course, is not a way to pay the bills, and he began to kind of disappear and there were some absences, and he was sort of coming apart emotionally mentally, and made many trips to Bellevue Hospital in New York City, which is pretty well known as a psychiatric clinic, and

that was making things incredibly difficult for us. My mother did her best to keep everything together, but when she had an opportunity, she thought it would be better if they si. She separated, and then we went our own way, and life was still tough. She was working as a waitress, making about thirty five bucks a week and holding down two children by herself with no other help, so it was really bare bones. We didn't have much we lived in.

After we lu moved to the lower we were sort of bouncing around from apartment to apartment, barely able to keep up with the rent. And we lived on Saint Mark's Place, which is a pretty well known street in Manhattan. In the village, and though the rent was super cheap, we were robbed nine times. We'd come home often from school and the apartment would we'd be ransacked. Sometimes the couch would be slashed open, uh pills thrown around, aspirin.

A beautiful fur coat that my mother had sent her from my mother had sent my mother's gr mother had center from Maine was stolen, the television was stolen. We were robbed quite often.

You know, childhood is that special time when you can make the worth of situations seem great if you can, you know, if you have a little bit of spunk and a little bit of imagination and if you believe in something. But you know, my mother, who was struggling very hard, was still an incredibly talented and brilliant person. And we struggled a lot, but you know, it was sort of like a badge of honor growing up during

those times with no support. And there was actually one time when we were robbed in our hallway at nice point by a young kid and he he threatened to cut our tongues out if we told anyone, as he reached into my sister's pocket and took out her cash. So I we we did not live live a sheltered life. I mean, we really got full force reality. I mean, nothing was spared. That's kind of the way things started out,

as rough as it all was. I was always very interested in art and books and going to museums, and I was kind of an introverted kid in a way. I sort of took after my mother's artistics bent. My sister, on the other hand, was much more of a hell raiser.

Ran away from home at a very early age at age thirteen, moved from New York to Detroit in the early nineteen seventies with her boyfriend, who was older and at least eighteen years old, and she lived there for a year and a half with gypsy's in a Hispanic Puerto Rican neighborhood. I'm sure it was very rough. I've never been to Detroit, but I can imagine what it was like back then. And when she came back, she

was still kind of on the run. She was a hell raiser and running away and finding ways to make money that you know, you didn't want to tell your parents about. She lived with the Hell's Angels, she got thrown out of the Hell's Angels clubhouse. It was more I wouldn't say colorful, doesn't really even describe it. But this is this is my life. You know, my threshold for reality at a very young age was very different from maybe others, you know, living in a better situations

or even slightly better situations. Nevertheless, though all of this was just this was just life, right, There was nothing you can really change about it. I certainly wasn't a much of a hell raiser, but I really wasn't afraid of very much. You know, New York City in the nineteen sixties and nineteen seventies was a much different place than it is now. So that's kind of where I

come from. Rough beginnings, but always with my eye on you know, the sort of transcendental you know, occupations of art, music, books, et cetera. So that's how it all kind of began. My sister and I were never really all that close. She got pregnant at age twenty five, she had a son, and then we began to get close again, and that was really important for me because I don't have any other brothers and sisters, and she was it. My father

was never around. I didn't see him for decades at a time, but my sister really meant a lot to me, and she and I became close, and then one day I got a call from a detective and who similar friend left a note on my door and said that to call this detective. And I called this number, and this detective was not like it is in the movies where they come to your house and they knock on your door and gently bring you the news. It's really not like that at all. I called this detective. I

was in a phone booth out in the street. I didn't have a phone at the time, and he just said, your sister's dead and you have to come down and identify the body. Well, that was for the worst day of my life, and I still find it very hard to talk about now. As you can imagine, she had shot herself in the head and killed herself. I was just destroyed, and it was you know, grief takes a long time. I'm still going through it. But you know, when I lost my sister, I lost like half of myself.

And I, you know, have a small family to begin with, and she had her son and helping out with him and as best I could. But yet you know, still walking around like like the walking wounded. You know, I felt like the walking destroyed. So I have a lot of losses, big holes in my life and took me years and years to sort of just begin to live with it. So that's that's the story with that. At the time, I was living in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.

nineteen eighty five. It was an old, beautiful, old neighborhood that had sort of was an industrial giant at one time that just just decayed and decayed from the nineteen fifties and nineteen sixties and seventies, et cetera. A lot of drugs, so, you know, so much crime, but there was still, you know, thriving communities there. You know, I didn't move into an empty lot. I mean there was life there and it was a real neighborhood. I loved it.

Certainly wasn't for the faint of heart, and it wasn't very different really from where I'd grown up in the city, so I really enjoyed it. And bouncing around trying to find the right place to live back then was easy because everything was cheap and it was available. And I moved into a building on South Fores Street, and I met one of my upstairs neighbors, and he was living with a friend. He had a roommate upstairs, and he was loads of fun, very very talkative, very entertaining, very engaging.

He could hold the whole room talking with his colorful stories and his way of being. He was very funny, and we got along right away, and we were good friends pretty pretty quickly. So it was that night I I I found out my sister died. I ran to his building and I ran and knocked on his door, and I said, I got to use your phone. He was having a party and noise and people. It was

all kind of a blur to me. But he put me in a back room in the apartment and he let me use his telephone, where I was able to call my mother and tell her the news. So I was there in his apartment that night, and that was kind of, you know, the first of the you know, many cementing steps in our friendship. And he was pretty supportive and I was a wreck and dysfunctional, but I felt safe in his apartment, calling my mother and bringing

her the news. Of course, then I had to take a taxi downstairs and tell my father the terrible news in person because he didn't have a phone. You know, he was very reclusive. He lived alone, uh, liked to take pictures, worked as a bike messenger, lived in the East village, and he was just very much urban high planes drift or a real loan er. UH didn't want to be bothered, didn't have So I had to go down and tell them in person the terrible news. So I was in the middle of like for the worst

transformative experiences of my life. Slowly but surely got on my feet, got better jobs, learned some skills, some computer skills, and then I landed a temp job working in publishing, which was one of the best things that's ever happened to me. I've worked in a lot of places in the city, a lot of industries. Temping is a great way to get into different types of industries banking, finance, fashion, advertising, movies, television. I mean, and then there's the boring stuff too, but

there's a lot of exciting opportunity. I found a job in publishing, and I knew this is what I wanted to do. It was great books, media, interesting people, interesting all the time. Work is never boring, and I just basically made myself indispensable to the publicity department at Doubleday Publishing.

It was at the sixty six to sixth building on Fifth Avenue at the time, so I really enjoyed that I was exposed to all kinds of things that I always loved, you know, I was I was type of kid that would go to bookstores and be lost in bookstores for hours like that. I'd never get bored. So working for a book publisher was like a dream come true. And I'd get off the elevator in the morning and I'd see Isaac Asimov sitting there waiting in the reception

area every Wednesday to meet with his editor. Jack yo Nassis was an editor there at the time, and she was a real attractor for all kinds of you know, big personalities, well known people, and it was just like became a common everyday thing, and it was exciting, and it's still exciting. I still love it. But that was the beginning of like, it was really a golden break for me to find something I really love to do and something that I continued to do. So that's that's

how I got into the publishing world. I mean, I went to art school, you know, I didn't go to college.

And he would often sort of say that we were like brother and sister in a way, and we laughed a lot. We shared a lot of things, and we would go up into his apartment in his loft and watch horror movies really cheap, you know, videos rented from the little cheap video store down the street, and we'd have a great old time. And there was one particular movie that we loved the most, and it was called

The Honeymoon Killers. And it's a great movie. It's classic, and we'd watch it over and over and we knew every line and we would recite every line in the film and just roll over laughing. It was just the greatest camp sort of campy horror Honeymoon Killers, a pair of murderers traveling the country, ripping off widows for their money and having to kill them sometimes. I mean, he dually doesn't get any better than that great cast. It became sort of like our word mantra, you know, our

shared you know, our shared thing, our space. I was always interested in true crime, but not like heavily at the time. I was more into like horror movies. My interest in true crime wouldn't come until a little bit later in life. You know. It was I read a lot, but I wasn't reading a lot of true crime until like maybe the seven oh, like the nineteen nineties. And Bobby's interest in true crime was a little more than mine.

He was really interested in serial killers. And everyone's interested in serial killers, of course, tons of books about them, movies, documentaries, but this was a guy who really liked them and actually started writing to them. But that wouldn't come until a little bit later into our friendship. But I might be getting a little bit ahead of myself. But he obviously had more interest in true crime than I did. I love a good scary story, don't get me wrong,

I really do. But there's a big difference between reading about them and then, you know, communicating with them. It's very different. Yeah, it's a place where I don't want to go. I know that all this stuff is very sellable, marketable. It's chic in some circles, it's cool. I you know, I prefer a distance to it because, you know, let's

not ever forget to all of these killers. We always remember their names, but really it's the victims the mountains and mountains of victims, most of them women, seems to be so when you really get into what the reality is, it's just a far different experience. And I don't really have any tolerance for communicating with murderers.

was never any of that. It was just like no information, no nothing, but it wasn't until the Internet kind of got its footing and that I realized that there was an outlet now for me to kind of poke around a little bit on. It was genealogy dot com. Now, websites back then were very clunky, not like they are today. Everything's very slick, everything moves today. Back then, it was just like this sort of message board with threads counting

down like. It was very crude. It was very primitive, and there were hundreds and hundreds of messages on every family page. And it seemed like the very beginning of what is now the huge ancestry search thing. It's just now tremendous, But I wasn't really expecting much, so I thought, well, I'm gonna just leave a message here and see what happens.

So my name is fenced in, but originally back in my ancestry, the name was Feinstein, and there were no fenced in pages on this website, but there was a big Feinstein page and there were lots of activity on this page. So I left a message, thinking, no one's ever going to answer. It's just I'll get nowhere. But that's okay. I'm just sort of curious about it, and I left a message asking has anyone any memory of my grandfather Morris, who was born in New York City

and the turn of the century. Gave very little information, and you know, and that was it. And within within about seven days I got out a message, and that really surprised me. And I got a message from someone named Karen Gardner, and she said that in her message replied to me on this long thread, I was just searching for my own family, and when I saw yours,

I almost fell out of my chair, you know. There she said they were we had the same grandfather on my father's side, which was certainly plausible because my father's father had two marriages and there were two older daughters that came before my father and his brother. He had been widowed apparently and remarried. Had my father and his brother larry within nine months of each other, to a much younger woman in her twenties. Her name was Violet, and after she had them, she left, she just split.

So that sort of began, like all sorts of terrible emotional disasters with people, as we know, this happened. So I got this reply from this woman, so her comments seemed plausible, like, yeah, this is plausible this certainly could be distant cousins because there was extended family there. So we started corresponding with each other and it was kind

of exhilarating and kind of pleasant. I was curious, I was cautious, but more I think I was letting it all kind of get the better of me, like just truly giving myself over to messages from someone that I didn't know, that who seemed to be giving me information that they we were on the same family family tree line somewhere. But I thought, okay, you know this is nice.

From a distance, Karen. It seemed to be very middle class, upper middle class, married, two children, lived in a house, and they all seemed very suburban and very distant and

separate from what my life was like. I wasn't really sure if we would get along or She sent me a family photo with all family there, brothers, sister's children, the seven or seven people in this picture with some children, and they were very conservative and very well dressed, and the formal portrait of family portrait, and I thought, gee, this is this is interesting. This is nothing that really I would ever do, but you know, people do this, and it was very believable. So now I had faces

to go with the names. You know. Now, it was sort of picking out who who Karen was and who her husband was, and pictures of her little children there and then her sister. So it was all building and solidifying, and we exchanged photos, we exchanged family stories, and then she said, you know, she talked about her brother and sister. Karen had a sister named Sharon and a brother named Leonard. Sharon lived in Massachusetts along with Karen. Leonard lived in

New Jersey. And she thought, well, she hadn't told anyone about me yet. She was kind of saving it. Maybe she felt she shouldn't be doing this, or maybe she would get in trouble with her family for sharing their story with me. But she kind of kept it to herself for a while and then eventually told her brother and sister about me. And this is all correspondens through email. And I like writing letters. I've always liked writing letters.

I've had pen pals in the past where we would write physical letters to each other back in the old days, and you would wait six days to get a letter and then you'd write back. And I mean, there's something really wonderful about that art. And I really enjoyed doing that, and there's something nice about not having them right there. The letter writing and in the learning was really the most exciting thing for me. Meeting people is a whole

other thing. So I was sort of intrigued by Leonard because he was closer by, and if he were working in Manhattan, it would be really easy for us to go have a coffee downtown. I would be willing to do that. And I think that was the time when in the Internet, when people were sort of beginning to meet each other through all sorts of sites. It's just a normal human experience. Yeah, you have to be cautious, of course, but they all seemed very down to earth, normal,

very normal. My family, by contrast, was kind of almost wild. You know, the artists, you know, the suicide, you know, the instability, all that stuff. My life was certainly never perfect. So I was kind of excited about meeting Leonard and getting to know Leonard a little bit. And we were supposed to meet and he was supposed to write me back at one point, and then then he just stopped writing back to me, and I was I was kind of hurt, you know. I remember I was belief is

a fluid thing. I was completely unbeliefed. All of this was completely legitimate, and I was kind of sad that Leonard wasn't writing back to me, and Karen was kind of making excuses a little bit, but she told me, you know, if you do meet him, he might cry. He's a little emotional and he can be a little mysterious. So I thought, I'm a little mysterious. What does that mean?

You know this wasn't really sure what that meant. So we get further into our correspondence, we're writing about the holidays. What are you doing for Thanksgiving? Or then there was sort of a little bit of talk about me going up to Massachusetts to meet with them, and though that sounds nice on its face, I really didn't want to go to massa Chusetts to meet anybody. Though I was sort of curious about all this. I do have somewhat reclusive qualities, like my father had a little bit of

a hermit sometimes. I was tending to stay to myself a lot. So the thought of traveling up there and meeting them and dealing with all those expectations and who knows what they would even think about me. I didn't really see myself as the most conventional person in the world. So we're getting further into this, and then suddenly Sharon, the sister in this trio of siblings, decides that I'm just a scam artist. And then I'm just looking to infiltrate the family to do what I don't know. I

couldn't even imagine take their money. I don't even know how it's possible. But she started going off on me to her sister, and this got sent to me in a carryover of an email exchange that she was having with her sister. I wasn't really intend intended to see it, but when I got this email from the strange email from cam and I scrolled down a ways to see what was going on, and like, Sharon was going really ballistic.

Who is this person? You don't know her, Why are you telling our family about telling her about our family? Why are you doing this? She's nothing but you know, dirt, and you should not be associating with her and everything. And I was really shocked, saddened, and I couldn't imagine what I was doing or saying that would give anyone this impression at all. I mean, it was never any talk of money or anything. It was just holidays? How are you? I would you do? I made a pie

this weekend, you know that kind of thing. And so I wrote back to thinking I was all full of pepper and beans. You know. I was just going to write back to to Sharon and tell her off, like how dare you? And I did, how dare you say this about me? It was really insulted. It was really hurt. It hurt me. I felt bad. Why would you say anything like this about me? It was so untrue, just when I was kind of enjoying the whole thing. So that caused a big, big cloud to form over everything.

Leonard stopped writing to me, and Sharon just kind of disappeared off the radar, back to whatever she was doing. And Karen would continue to write to me once in a while, and she said to me once, isn't Leonard writing to you? And I said, no, Leonard is not writing to me at all. He's not interested in meeting with me. And she says, well, I guess Sharon must have gotten to him by now, and I thought, well,

what do you mean, gotten to him? And it seemed that Sharon was poisoning Leonard against me, telling him all sorts of things about me that weren't true and that would scare anyone off. So everything just kind of stopped and died away. Now meanwhile, I'm excited about this, and I'm telling friends about this at work. Hey, I met family online and it's so interesting. And this is kind of cool because I was used to losing people, you know.

I mean I didn't talk about this before, but my father died of lung cancer in two thousand and one. My father was gone, his brother died before that, my sister was gone. I didn't have a lot of family, so I was lose to losing people. But now suddenly I was gaining people, and that was a different feeling, and I was excited about it, and I was telling people about it, and then suddenly it all just kind

of fell apart. But I was also sharing all of this with Bobby, who was really interested in all of this. Oh what are you going to tell the next or what do they say? Or let me see what they look like. So it became like I wouldn't say it, like became like a soap opera right away, but it was definitely, you know, like real stuff that was happening, stuff that was worth talking about. And we we talked about it a lot.

once again myself. I mean, but Nolan was a really sweet, easy young guy who was a New Yorker like me. It was really easy going. We'd hang out, we'd have hamburgers. He was a really good company, and I really enjoyed having someone who was easy to be with. I was not used to having someone who was easy to be with, so I was I felt safe, I felt comfortable. Well, it was uh wasn't heavy, and we we were We enjoyed it. We enjoyed each other as people. We really did. He was he was a nice kid, and he was

not I mean. I was sort of telling him about this the time, but he wasn't really all that interested. I mean, I mean, nobody could really make that big of a deal out of it, really, cause it wasn't at first, it wasn't a big deal at all now and then suddenly it took a very dark turn. Bobby, of course, I kept abreast of all of the things that were happening. And Bobby and I were always online chit chatting on AOL Messenger, which goes back to you know,

pre social media, like AOL Messenger, instant message, uh. And we would be chatting online and you can add people to your friend list or your buddy list and then you could chat with them. It was just the progenitor for all of the things that are online today. And

I he started getting strange messages. I started getting a lot of pornography suddenly out of nowhere, really triple X, quadruple X, super dirty, super freaky crazy porn all the time, All day long, I was I was being subscribed to all sorts of strange list serves and everything under the sun, you know, I mean, you've heard of a lot of things, but then there's things you've never heard of, and you're like, wow, man,

this is really crazy. This stuff really exists, but someone was out there adding me to list and sending me

porn and I couldn't figure out what it is. And and Bobby and I would be chatting online talking about all of this, and I had previously gotten Leonard's instant message account, so he was part of my buddy list of Aol Messenger, and I would though he wasn't communicating with me anymore, I would see him kind of pop on and off like I would be on chatting with Bobby, and Leonard would just suddenly peer like you would see

someone come on. A little door would open, a little icon would pop out like they're in, like they were here, and even sometimes there was a sound of like a door closing, and you could customize these things to make all the sounds you want. I mean, it was, you know, it was like a little gang like all this stuff is. So we would watch Leonard pop on and off, and anytime he would pop on in Messenger, all of this porn would start flooding into my inbox, like really dirty,

dirty stuff. And then at one point Leonard wrote to me directly and said, I can make you moan, you know, something like that, And it was really arresting and really awful. And it turned out that it was Leonard adding me to all of these porn sites and spanning me and sending me all this stuff and just harassing me. So I finally I didn't want to tell Karen about it,

but I finally had to. I wrote to Karen, Look, I don't want to cause any problems with you and your family, but I have reason to believe that Leonard is behind all of these terrible things are happening to my email, and I just really wish it would stop. Well, a few days after that, I heard back from Karen, and she was horrified, and she said apologized over and over, and she said that I'm sorry I never told you,

but Leonard has a lot of problems. You know, Leonard has been diagnosed with mental illness since she was a really young boy. And though he is a Wall Street whiz and a math prodigy, he has severe psychiatric history. And she laid out in a letter to me that I will never forget, and it really described all of Leonard's not only his psychiatric history, which was troubling and

upsetting and disturbing. And not to say that people who are mentally ill are prone towards bad you know, bad crime or evil or harm.

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But nobody in my family had criminal histories or heard anyone or did anything like that. But Leonard's history was really shocking and really troubling. And she had mentioned the names of the other two offenders that were involved in this crime, and it was like a bomb go going off in my face. So, of course, like everything that was happening in this saga, I would immediately show it to Bobby. Oh my god, look at this. Tell me what you think. I'm too scared to even read it.

It's just too upsetting. And I would often do that. As things got worse and worse, I would be so afraid and so rattled. I would just send things to him, like here, you read this for me, and then you give me the cliff notes, because I can't handle all of this. I mean, it really got to the point as it got deeper and deeper and deeper, I just

couldn't handle anything anymore. So, like I did to Bobby, we started googling, and we started searching around, and we did find the names of these two offenders in New Jersey, and they were indeed registered sex offenders, with pages on the New Jersey Police Department describing their crimes, describing the dates they were incarcerated, the dates they were released. But

these are frightening, frightening character their pictures. I don't know it was more frightening their rap sheets or their photos, but together all at once, and the two of them and only a few miles away in New Jersey, was just too overwhelming for me. So that's where it all began to go into that dark spiral.

of neighbors clothing lines, and wearing women's clothing. He also was prone to peeping in windows. And what was the other thing he said, I'm sort of losing track. He he he was sent away. He was sent away to Greystone. Actually he had been incarcerated or hospitalized a few times. But what went back to the original genesis of all of this was there was another child in the family and her name was Sondra, and she was like the

apple of everyone's eye. And one day, while the child was sleeping and the mother wasn't paying attention, the room or the part of the house that they were in had mysteriously set on fire, and the child was killed, and it sent the mother into a terrible depression and she would carry around a doll with her all the time. This is what Karen was telling me. Her mother was carrying a doll in her terrible state of grief to

somehow food what happened. And there was some thought in the family that Leonard may have started the fire himself. They never offered actual proof, but you know a family says something, it's because they're kind of operating on instinct, like something's wrong here. You know, something was very wrong with all of this. So that's what sort of started the domino effect of the pat that Leonard was on, which wasn't good.

And Karen's always in the middle, like running interference, trying to just put out little fires everywhere and take care of everyone and explain everything away and try to smooth everything out, and very belatedly giving me vital information that about him that I wished I had known the for so I. After looking at these offender profiles and looking at everything, it was really becoming clear to me that this was just a very bad situation. And now suddenly

they all know me, they know where I live. I only know certain things about them, but I seemed like I had given away so much of myself, what I do, where I live, that suddenly I was on their radar and I wasn't going away because I had impacted them in such a way. Now, Leonard going back into Greystone sent the other sister off into a complete breakdown, and she was on a war path basically for my head. So that had sort of gone on for a while.

Finding out about these offenders was just devastating. The last thing I needed was someone just like a hop skip over the Hudson River and I would be toast, you know. I mean, these were sex offenders, and it was just too terrifying to even believe that this was happening. At a certain point, Leonard was in Graystone sort of bouncing off the walls and still commiserating over his you know,

his lost little cousin me. He had sort of become his sexual obsession with me had turned into you know, a maybe a possible real affection for me tinged with all sorts of other troubling elements too. None of this was ever like completely sweet and easy. Karen was always sort of explained to me that I should just smile and be friendly when Leonard gets out. Should he just show up at my door unexpected as he's been known

to do, just show up on people. So here I was thinking, all right, this guy may get let out soon and he could just pop at my door on an ounced You know what am I gonna do if that happens. So Leonard starts painting a painting of me in this psychiatric facility. He's painting a painting. It's not really supposed to No one wants to really tell me it's me, but I have a feeling it's me, and he wants to give me this painting when he gets out, and I don't know what to do. You know, part

of me wants to run and hide. The other part is just too scared to fight, and another part, which is part of my nature too, which is just I just want to straighten this out. I just want to calm everybody down and straighten it out, because it was I could not look away. Was I just could not just look away because I was afraid of what was gonna happen next. He stort of, keep your enemies close. You know, you keep your friends close, but you keep

your enemies closer. I felt I had to kind of keep my eye on them because I did not want to get sandbagged in the middle of you know, in the middle of out of the Blue. So Leonard gets into a bunch of fights with a sister. I mean, the drama in this is so thick and so deep that you would have to have like sixteen professional soap opera writers to move this story forward. So just to jump ahead just a little bit for you know, your listener's sake, Leonard is out of Graystone and he is

now back in his element. He's back in his realm. He turns out that he is also a sort of an expert in the bdsm arts. You know, he's really submerged in the S and M world, in the fetish world, and like stress up in you know, trends. Mode goes back and forth, and he's apparently still in touch with his two former cohorts, mccawtree and Burr. Now Leonard is about to throw the biggest kink party of all parties in the Western Hemisphere, and he somehow tells mccawtree about me.

And now this guy, this registered sex offender, now has my email address. He's seen pictures of me, he knows where I live. He's seen Leonard's little cousin and he thinks she's cute. And I get an email from him, you know, sort of like, hey, pretty little lady, you know your cousin's told me lots about you. You know, how would you, you know, like me to, you know, come and pick you up some time and we can go

out together. So I'm just like blown away. I'm getting emails now from real criminals, right, I mean, Leonard was acquitted for his crime, and Haron kind of smooths all that out, making it seem like it was not that big of a deal. He was in the wrong place in the wrong time, though I know I didn't really believe her completely. You know, some people do the crime but don't do the time. These guys who had done the time, now one of them at least has his

eyes on me. That is just just horrifying, horrifying, beyondbelieved. So I'm in the midst of trying to put out all these fires now too. Write what Karen had been doing probably all her life. Now I'm doing too, keeping one person at day soothing the other, trying to run my own life. I mean, I had a busy life. I'm working, I'm self supporting, I have a very busy job, and I'm preoccupied by this, this dark, dark saga that was just overtaking me, and it was just overtaking my everyday life.

very troubling family life with his wife's family. How was often in communication with me, and he felt, I guess some obligation just because he's human to sort of warn me about things, protect me a little bit as much as he possibly could, because this is apparently an old story for him. Leonard in and out of either jail or either out of Graystone or wandering around or off his medicaid or anything. I mean, Leonard was a handful. But Leonard also had a lot of really bad friends.

It wasn't so much the one, but when you got one, you deal with the whole clan of his world. It was not pretty. So hal they kind of befriended me and would often be the you know, the good guy. You know, Oh, I told Leonard to leave you alone. I said you should stop bothering you. But I also, you know, want to warn you that Sharon Is doesn't have a good character. There was talk about her maybe

you know, she was going to get remarried. Maybe there was some questions about what happened to her first husband. No one was completely sure, but she was about to get remarried again, and all of this turmoil and trouble in the family with Leonard and his sisters had short

short circuited her plans to get married. The guy she was engaged to husband to be suddenly was getting cold feet looking at all of this, right, does he want to end up like how, you know, with a boulder load of you know, a boatload of incredible problems non stop for the rest of your life. So he actually backed out of the wedding that sent Sharon over the edge.

So how was kind of like the rock, you know, he was like warning me against Sharon, giving me information, you know, taking care care of Karen, smoothing things out with Leonard, and then had you know, often had to take extra steps, you know, to like go that extra measure. As the events continued to unfold, at one point, House said, look, I really got a level with you. You know, Karen's told you only so much about Leonard. There's actually more. And apparently there was a murder of a young girl

in New Jersey. She wasn't a young girl. She's a twenty two year old mother and she had a toddler child, and she was a single mother, and she was in New Jersey and it's a terrible, terrible violent crime and that Leonard may be linked to that because they had dated. Leonard had apparently crossed paths with her, was very excited about her, was talking to the family about this new woman he had met, and he thought she was wonderful

and they were all very excited for him. And then suddenly he just stopped talking about her completely, and then she ended up murdered. Now I just thought at that point that I had heard all I can hear and seeing all I can see. At that point, I said, I've had enough. I'm changing my email accounts. I'm changing my I called up what was it, Verizon, I changed to some other carrier. I changed everything. I just locked up, shut it all out, and then said enough, I can't.

It was just too much for me. The pictures of this young woman who was murdered, and she was about my height, you know, she's blonde, light hair, blue eyes, and there were similarities there that were just chilling, chilling, and I felt like I was somehow being ever ever, you know, pushed into this thing that seemed to have a momentum of its own and that was going to escalate, and it was just too it was just too terrifying. That was a wreck.

that familiar with what's going on internet. There really weren't even any laws on the books to prevent anything from happening. You know, I think the laws have just are continuing to evolve with internet crime. So I got a police officer, and she was a female police officer, and I explained to her what was happening. And I printed out some of the photos that I was getting and some of the pictures I was being sent and explaining the whole thing, and she said she was very sympathetic, but she knew

that her hands were tied. There was only so much that she could do, so I felt better that at least I made a report. And she said, look, I'm not really sure what we can do with this, but let me show these pictures to some of the officers at the precinct. So she said, wait right here, and she took my folder that I have of images I'd printed out, and showed it to a bunch of officers,

all male officers in the precinct that were there. And she came back after a few moments, and it was all very embarrassing for me, very upsetting and embarrassing, and it was just a total violation of just my whole sensibility to even have to go and talk about this to police, and also feeling very helpless at the same time. And she said, look, though the pictures are crude and there's nothing really we can do, but I'll take the

report anyway, and I gave her my information. But then I actually had made multiple trips back as as things just sort of progressed. I had been back and I met with another police officer. This time. They said I could talk to a detective, detective Fronenburger, and he was your hard boiled New York City detective. And he listened to my story with very straight face, very serious. But I could tell that, and you know, when I was

talking about it, it all just seemed completely absurd. But I felt like I had no recourse, like it, I have to do something. I can't not report this to the police at this point. But he said, you know, look, we don't know you know people. You know, he was a little he was a lot wiser than me. He says, you know, sometimes people take this stuff up the Internet and it's you know, it's something that they find and you know, there's really nothing provable here, and there's there's

really nothing I can do. So, you know, the second or third time, I went home from the police precinct just feeling hopeless more hopeless.

feeling even more hopeless. Nolan, though, had had enough and he went and he made a phone call to the FBI. Now this was like a few months in. We're getting to like October two thousand and four, and this has been going on for months. Nolan had already been getting frightening a terrifying phone phone calls on his cell phone.

No one would have known his cell phone number. I would never have given it to anyone, So it was really odd and really perplexing that they had it, and they were leaving terrifying, threatening messages for him and very upsetting and very very disturbing. So he had managed to get through to the FBI, and he talked about some of the stuff that was going on to them, you know,

threats of kidnapping, threats of murder, threats of rape. There was some sort of cult that they were mentioning in all of these threatening emails about some cult of state, and it was the mention of the cult element in this that got their attention, and we actually got a meeting with the FBI because Nolan had persevered and so grateful that he did, so important.

as well. They become far more sinister than invitations to a sex party that you're clearly not interested in, doesn't it.

There's a dominance, there's submission, there's many categories, there's many approaches, and there's all kinds of wild and crazy and sometimes disturbing things going on. And I was getting emails, really terrible emails from people about, you know, how would you like to be tortured this way? And how would you like to be tortured that way? And it sort of went on and on, and one of these characters sort of got it into her head that I was, you know, I was bad. I was sort of infilstrating I was

going to get involved with her guy. They had a master enslave relationship. Of course, I had no interest in any of that, and ignoring them and rebuffing them never

really seemed to make any difference. In addition to this, this kink party was a whole other thing called the false Laughter, and that's where it really started to take on some terrifying shades that there was talk amongst mccawtree and his other cohort Burr about getting involved in the kidnapping myself and Nolan and taking a substate and to do what with us Not sure, but there were so many threatening phone calls. So all of that is what

really prompted us to go to the FBI. And once we got that meeting, I felt like, Okay, at least I have a chance. So of course, like everything else I told, I told Bobby about it, like wow. He was like, didn't really know what to say. He was like, really, wow, that's great. FBI, Well what are they gonna do? And they're not gonna believe you? And this is all too crazy, and boy, where do you know, where are they even

going to begin? And so I I met with the FBI and we we I sat there with my piles of papers and my emails all printed out and everything, and this very kind special agent named Brandon Waller, who was very patient, very serious, took my whole account, very soberly, made notes as I opened my folder and showed him one thing after the other, each character in this story, all of the things that were going on, and his eyes were wide. I sat there for an hour telling

him everything. So after that I felt, Okay, at least I have this. Anything happens to us, they will know everything, will be on file if we're found dead in a ditch somewhere, and we still have some places to start. So I had to write up. After the meeting with the FBI agent, he asked me to write up a synopsis of all of this. So that was where I had to really just sit down and sketch it all out. First first scene, what happens here, next person, next person?

What led us here? Why is all this going on? So I had to spell all this out for the FBI agent and send it in to him. So of course I told Bobby about everything, because he was my main confidant through this whole story, like my wingman, you know, who's there for everything. He says, well, i'd like to see this outline that you're sending the FBI. And I thought, and I said, why, you know the whole story. I

don't have to show this to you. Agent Waller had asked me to keep it confidential, so I'm always going by the letter. I'm not going to mess up my chance, my one and only chance, by doing the wrong thing and disobeying this this federal law enforcement officer. So I'm like, no, I'm just going to keep it to myself and I'm going to send it to him. And Bobby was really

quite insensed about that, and I couldn't believe. Like, I know he was a busy body, and I know that this was just way too juicy for him to miss, Like he probably wanted to see everything that happened. Of course I would too as a friend, Like what did you say? But I didn't think it would have upset him that much that I didn't want to show it

to him. And he was really quite indignant about it, and we argued about it, you know, he was like, well, look, after all we've been through, how could you not show me this letter? And I was like, well, I'm sorry. You know the whole story, and I promised that I wouldn't show it to anybody. So that's just the way it's going to be. And that was that, and then things went silent, a completely silent no emails, no warnings,

no weird calls, no nothing. Everything just completely stopped. That was weird, Like it went from operatic levels to just flatline just within a day. It was really weird. And there's a lot of other going on. I mean, this is a very densely packed story. We're doing the cliff note version of it, so safe to say when you read the book, you're going to get every bit of nuance in what led me, every step of the way

and all the turns of events. But everything went dead, like if you flip the switch right, the stage just goes dark. It's nothing that was very eerie adopted, but it was strange that it just stopped.

attention to this. I mean, they've got big fish to fry, right, They've got gangsters and corporate crime and terrorism and a lot of things going on. This is just this weird noir tale that just seemed to never die. So the fact that he was interested in at all was like really important to me. And I didn't want to burn that bridge for any reason. But he was diligent, and he started looking into like any law enforcement agent would, who's interested in getting to the bottom of this, Like

who are these these these offenders? Right? Who are who is mccawtree and who is Burr? And he started looking into Burr. And then we got the news that actually mccawtrey had never left prison, right, was something I was not expecting because I had looked at his offender profiles in the New Jersey Police Department dot website, where he says they show in released, out, reincarcerated, when for what I mean, it's pretty detailed. It's like, there's no way he's out, How can they how can he how can

he be in prison? If I don't know he's in prison? And how can he be in prison if he's emailing me about Kinkfest and how you know, suddenly this was another bombshell, Like wait a minute, If this one piece of the puzzle falls away, it doesn't everything else can't

support because everybody was in this together. All their relationships were very clear, you know, through their correspondences through Sharon, through Hall, through Karen, through Leonard, and through various other members of this Kinkfest world that were communicating with me. They all knew each other and all of these events were revolving around all of their activity in this this cauldron.

And so with one of the prisoners, one of the elements still in prison, this was completely it was just changed everything.

great with them. But he throughout all of this, I had I had contacted He contacted me, and I wrote back to him that I was not interested in any of this. You know though, Leonard is my cousin, we don't share this. I respectfully don't want to be involved in any of this. So I think that's sort of opened him up a little bit, and he started kind of treating me more like a person throughout this, and

he wrote back, I'm really sorry. I didn't realize. Yeah, you know, Leonard Leona, as as Leonard liked to be sometimes he was either Leonard or Leona in whatever form he liked to be in. He's like, you know, Leona's cool, and if he's if you're his cousin, you're cool. And then he started sort of confiding in me a little bit more. And because he was kind of turning on

everyone there, they didn't like it. His girlfriend, she had some very bad contacts as well, and he was sort of blowing the whistle on all of them with me, and he ended up being threatened and then ended up being grabbed off the street and given a hot shot as it was called, which is I can only imagine, you know, being sort of shanghaied, grabbed, hit with a needle, hit with some kind of crazy juice, knocked out, and

kind of let to the street. So this was just one part, one more part of this tornado of activity that was going on since I started all of this, and now I've got someone hurt, someone injured, his girlfriend running a muck. She's out for me, Sharon's out for blood. I'm just dodging. I feel like I'm just dodging glass everywhere I go. It was really hard. I'm not really I mean the fear. I mean, it's hard to reconjure

that fear that I was feeling. But it was just like being completely under siege by too many things going on at once. He started telling me more Carl about what was going on with mccawtree and Burr and the Tribe of Twelve, which was a cult Upstate that was started probably back in the nineteen forties the nineteen fifties

by a former Carnival Barker. And as most cults do, they kind of go off and create their own little compound, their own little world, where the cult leader is, you know, the ruler of all, like a god, and they do bizarre things, and there were there was talk of some nefarious activity with this cult. Not only were they like had their their cult members kind of brainwashed, but they were also involved in some really bad stuff like kidnapping,

you know, like murder. And that's how that's really what got the FBI's interest was the mention of the tribe of twelve upstate. And I felt like they were all involved in all of these things, Carl and his girlfriend and Leonard's friends, and it was all becoming like, you know, like a volcano like pressure building like something like I was irritant in this mix, and my just my mere presence was causing them all to kind of implode. So it was baffling. It was overwhelming.

What do you surmise after that? What is your only conclusion after that, after all of that conversations and everything that you assessed and poured over and rethought of, what did you think?

mccawtrey had been released from prison. But it turned out that there are certain types of offenders that though they complete their prison sentences, they are deemed too dangerous to release, so they're put into something that is called civil confinement, where you've done your time, you've done your twenty seventeen whatever years, but they just cannot let you go. So I don't know how that works with our constitution, but they can keep you if you're deemed too dangerous to release.

And mccartrey was deemed too dangerous to release, and he was being held in this facility in New Jersey. So with all of that, there was only one conclusion, and the conclusion was that all of this was fake, None of this was happening. But was for sure was that some thing someone some ones were behind this, and that became even more strange, like how could why who could be doing this? Who would even care about me? I'm no one famous, I'm just some New York publicists, living

of life and not under anyone's watch or concern. Why would anyone care about me? Why would anyone hate me this much? Why would anyone bother? So it became more of like, first there's all these monsters and then there's none, But there has to be someone. There has to be someone doing this. Could not figure out who, who would be able to even find them. I didn't think we'd ever be able to find out who. I could not imagine anyone in my life who would do this to me.

He told me that his computer was sort of turning on at night and it was sending messages out that he did not write, like somehow something someone had hacked into his computer turned it on in the middle of the night and started using it as a you know, like a like a third party, just operating it from remote. And he said, well, I had to clear out my trojans and I had to delete all the stuff, and I reworked my whole operating system. And I'm thinking, that's weird.

How could that happen? I don't really I didn't really know that you could turn on computers by remote. I really And this was like two thousand and four, two thousand and five. It really wasn't with technology, wasn't really there, but just sounded really strange, and it sounded really small compared to all the stuff that I was going through. I was like, Okay, sorry, you're having problem with your computer, but I have bigger problems right now to deal with.

So it seemed like suddenly there's this sort of story emerging that I didn't even know why. But it was sort of like Okay. It was like, okay, whatever, Shore, alright, you're having problems with your computer. So do I welcome to the club?

notifications that I was sending these things out. I mean, there was a Yahoo greeting at one time where you could type in any email in the world and there was nothing to confirm that it was really you the center. It just sent them out and you would say, it would say your greeting was sent, and you're like, I didn't send any greeting and it's like, oh, your greeting was picked up, Like I don't even know what the heck this is, but you're still getting it. You can,

you could have. I'm sure they've changed it since then. But this went on for a few days, and it was this terrible attack at me at work, and that was the trip wire by which the FBI could obtain a subpoena to the email address from where these were coming, or one of the emails along the way, because there were so many, you know, where do I'm surprised that you even know where to start. But they sent a subpoena out, And of course I was telling Bobby all

of this as it was happening. Oh, the FBI is sending out a subpoena, and that kind of got us tackled up a little bit. Was like, why what are you doing that for? I was like, well, what do you mean why? I want to know what. I want this to stop. This has to stop. I want to be left alone. I want this to end. So I came home from work. Adrian Waller was on the phone.

He says, we got a hit on the subpoena and I was elated, But then I was also he said, you know, I had prior warned me like, look, just because we get a hit on this on this IP address, doesn't mean that we will pinpoint it. If this person is sending this from a computer in a college library, let's say we can't find the actual person, right, we can locate the computer, So don't get your hopes up. But when he called me and said that they had a hit, and I was like great, And he said

do you know anyone in DC? And I said yeah, it wasn't surprising because I did. I know, I knew two people in DC, you know, particularly, but it was a big city. I mean, anything can happen, right, I mean, it was a big, wide open question. And he said, well, who do you know? And I said, I gave him Bobby's name and he goes, well, what's his address. It was like thinking, wait a minute, what do you mean what is his address? So I just gave him his address,

Like why would he still be pursuing this? And he says, well, what what's his phone number? And what the and he went down list and he said, look, we have to come out. I'm gonna come out to Brooklyn. I'm gonna bring another agent with me and we're going to have a meeting. Well it was that was just the most shocking, incredible phone call that I'd had in this all of this, that that it was it was my friend, that it

was Bobby. So I'm just devastated. I mean, I'm I'm just in shock, like true shock, because it was so much hitting me all at once, all of them, Where what ifs? Why?

we went through everything and they were very sympathetic. I mean, if at first, you know, this other agent was looking at me like he really wanted information about the Whipke murder. The young woman who was murdered in New Jersey. That's why he was there. Because in the middle of talking to Agent Waller about while all of this was about and what do we do and what else do I know? I had this other FBI agent saying, well, what do you know about a truck driver in New Jersey? You know?

And what do you know about this? I mean, clearly he was after something that I did not have. You know, they were that murder was not solved and they wanted to solve it. He was hitting me with these questions, looking at me kind of skeptically. But by the end of our meeting, this other agent has just been sat there just like almost with his mouth open, listening to the stories that I was telling about everything that I

knew about Bobby. I knew Bobby was. You know, he was a busy body, he was a little nosy, he was a little bit of a pot stir But I would never think that he would do anything like that to me. So that was the beginning of what came next. What came next, well, I was brought down to the FBI headquarters and had a meeting with Agent Waller in his office, and I drew out a scheme of Bobby and his boyfriend's apartment in DC. Every door, every window,

every drawer, every closet, every room. What was in this room, what was in that room? Where's the balcony, where's the elevator. I'm in everything by detail, if I knew it very well, because I've been down there many times over the course of the story, visiting, trying to get away from all this. So I really wasn't sure what was going to happen next. They weren't telling me anything. They were just talking to

me about things. But they weren't saying we are going to do X, Y and C. They just because I'm sure they're worried about me tripping people off. But Agent Waller also said, look, I want you to continue to act normal with Bobby. Don't don't let on that, you know, just act normal. And that was not easy because I was just whatever compassion or humanity I had for him, it's just gone. I had no friendship left. I mean, what would he even say. I didn't even know what

to say. I was afraid to talk to him to terrify me. But we had to still maintain communication with each other because we emailed all the time. What are you doing, how's your day, it's raining, it's sunny, how's work, blah blah blah. So he starts to sort of get the sense that I'm not really myself, even though I'm trying to act like myself. I'm not jovial, I'm not funny. Everything's like really short. And then he's like, is that thing I'll write with you? Because he knows me so well.

I mean, he's been playing me like a violin, so of course he's going to see detect any subtle changes in my demeanor. And I was like, no, everything's fine. I got problems, I got taxes to worry about, I got job, this that, you know, all the normal stuff. I was just downplaying it. And I was like, I can't talk right now. I got to go. So it was a Friday, the thirteenth. I was on my way

to work. I was a little bit late. And I get to work and I get to the reception desk and the receptionist is sitting there and she's looking at me, and she's like, you've been getting a lot of calls. Somebody's been calling you here over and over two hundred times,

two hundred, three hundred times. And I said what, and she showed me a post it that was stuck to her phone with the number with DC number that was calling over and over again, so much so that the president of the company had to call him back and say, if you don't stop calling here, I'm going to contact my lawyer. I mean, it was just a barrage of rapid fire phone calls. So I get to my desk and my boss is actually on the phone with him, and she's trying to get him off the phone. Yep, no,

she's not here right now. I's gonna take a message. I'm sorry she's not here, and I can feel the intensity of their struggle on the phone. He would not let this go. So she's looking at me like she got him off the phone. She was looking at me

like what the heck is going on here? So I called Agent Waller immediately and he told me that they had been given granted by a judge a search and seizure warrant on the residence in DC, and that that morning, before dawn, a team of SWAT and FBI had bypassed the doorman in the lobby, gone straight up in the elevator. It's a very nice building in a very nice part of DC knocked on the door, and that was it,

right separated. Bobby and his boyfriend searched the apartment, took his computer, took a lot of correspondent with serial killers, took laptops, took everything. It was sweeping, immediate, it was comprehensive. So after that happened, Bobby had just called my office like a thousand times, trying to get hold of me, and I was not answering, didn't want to answer. I want to just hide and run. I just it was all of it. It was just just way too much to deal with.

an hour. The book itself, I had to abridge it that I had to take about a third off. There were other subplots, there were extra things just thrown in for no reason. There were other characters, there were other people. There were more sagas within sagas within sagas. It was like a wild imagination an editor, a writer who had who just wanted to throw everything in and the kitchen

sink just because they could, without rhyme or reason. I mean, the main plot moved along, but there was so much to it that just for the sake of the reader, we had to shorten the book a bit. But this is core of the full events in this strange and winding story.

working on their writing styles. I mean this, when you really think about it, it was just an architectural kind of magnum magnum opus, right, any an imagination run completely wild, and really for what the sole purpose would commandeer another human beings life, right, take them by their most vulnerable beliefs and what they desire for family, maybe filling in those little holes in their lives, and then just elaborating on it and embroidering it and and marinating it and

just creating this this this it's almost like an opera. Right. It was just so much. It's just mind boggling. You just couldn't believe that one person could not only be someone's friend, orchestrate this entire thing like a moving feast, and in real time that the most frightening part, right, the duality.

saying I had tried to escape a few times. But there's a lot of a bit more in the story that you have to find out where he was always keeping up with me to find a way through serendipitousness or just a mistake or some accident or something would happen and it would start up all over again, because because the net was so wide and so bad and so complex, it was easy to catch things and to keep it going. It's like a spider and a fly.

I do once in a while, just to be sure, because you know, Facebook is full of all sorts of chicanery. But if anyone reads my book likes it, has any questions, I'll be happy to try to answer them. I'm just really grateful to have had the opportunity by Wild Blue to publish my story, a very unusual story that doesn't really seem to fit in many true crime categories, but encompasses something that's actually you know, cyberstalking is overtaking physical stocking.

It's more common now than physical stalking. It's a changing world, and we were always trying to keep up with it. So I hope that people like my book. Hopefully we learn something from it, but certainly we'll be puzzled by it all. Thank you Dan very much for this.