WRECKING CREW-John Ferak

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Netflix documentary Making a Murderer. In this anniversary edition of Wrecking Crew Demolishing the Case against Stephen Avery, Ferrick not only lays out in meticulous detail the post conviction strategy of Kathleen Zelner, the high profile, high octane lawyer fighting to free Avery, but also includes a five years later section. This update provides fresh insights and developments in Avery's ongoing legal battle. Additionally, this special edition features an exclusive epilogue

a November twenty twenty three interview with Stephen Avery. For this book, Zelmer, arguably America's most successful wrongful conviction attorney, granted Ferrik unprecedented access to the exhaustive pro bono efforts she in her small suburban Chicago law firm have invested in a man she believes to be wrongfully ensnared by Manitoua Counties on scrupulous justice system. This anniversary edition offers new revelations and a comprehensive look at a case that

continues to stir public debate and demand justice. The book that we're featuring this evening is Wrecking Crew Demolishing the Case against Stephen Avery, with my special guest, investigative journalist and author John Ferrick. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Welcome back, John Ferick.

update version. Here the key facts that came forward after my book and after Making Murder just totally out of nowhere was the discovery of an eyewitness who actually was a newspaper delivery driver and he had seen information pointing to an alternative suspect, somebody other than Steven Avery that may have been involved in Treesa Hallbuck's murder, but certainly was involved instrumental in having access and handling her vehicle in the hours before that vehicle was discovered, which was

a couple of days they should say, several days after she had already gone missing. That's a key component of the book update for Wrecking Crew. There was also a case the defamation lawsuit out of Making a Murder by one of the Mantwah County Sheriff's deputies who was a central figure in Making a Murder Season one and two, and he filed a federal lawsuit against the producers and against Netflix.

hopes of getting out? Has he been distraught, angry, frustrated the fact that he hasn't gotten out in light of all the efforts by Kathleen Zelener to uncover evidence pointing to two alternative suspects, uncover evidence, you know, of evidence being fabricated or tampered with by the sheriff's officials and the prosecution possibly withholding evidence that could have been exculpatory for he and his lawyers for the original trial. So

those are all several of the key updates. I also did kind of a little bit of a human interest

element of the book. There's been so many people dan since Making a Murder came out, just people all over the world that have taken an interest in the case, and so I decided the focusing on one individual has kind of become a folk hero, folk artist on the music side of things, and he's written a couple dozen songs about the making a murder case, all from the Steven Avery and Brendan Dacy's vantage point from a social

justice perspective. So we kind of really drilled down one song in particular that really looked at the evidence tampering of the case and kind of examined why he wrote that song.

came from the streets and really had no family. But she's taken up the crusade for people that she only takes on cases that she is one hundred percent convinced in their innocence. She walks away from cases and has nothing to do with it if she has any hint or suspicion or belief that the person's lying to her or trying to manipulate her into believing that the person's innocent when they aren't. Fay guilty of murders. So she's had incredible success over the last thirty plus years as

a wrongful conviction lawyer. So she got involved in Stephen Avers case literally from watching Making a Murderer And you know, unbeknownst to her at the time, but yes, Stephen had Stephen Avery had written her previously trying to reach out to her to consider taking up his case while he's in prisoned. So she's spent now. I mean this month is I think today or tomorrow, So the anniversary is

the first week of January. I'm pretty sure, Dan, But she took up the case in his crusade January of twenty sixteen, so eight years now, Wow, she's been involved in his case for eight years, which sounds like a long time, and it is a long time, but in the wrongful conviction movement, it's probably part of the course. So she's had cases that have taken her far far

a lot longer to win. And she and her firm and her team of private investigators have put a ton of money and time and energy all on their own researching Stephen Avery and looking at the evidence, looking at alternative suspects, looking at the original trial testimony, and so over these last eight years, and she's uncovered what she believes is a long and strong track record that points

to an alternative suspect. Suspects plural, but she's really zeroed in one individual, Dan and also a lot of evidence that she believes was mishandled or fabricated, tampered with, or withheld from the original lawyers for Stephen Avery at the time of his trial. And again, she's put eight years into the case so far, and in the court of a public opinion, it's probably ninety to ninety five percent in her favor, in Stephen Avery's favor, But as we all know, it really comes down to the judge that

happens to be assigned to the case. And as you mentioned, Angela Suckowitz had been the judge already previously assigned to Steven Avery's case after Judge Mantwah County Judge Patrick Willis had retired from the bench several years ago, so Judge Suckowitz,

who's from neighboring Sheboygan County. Boygan's about a hour away from Mantwack, but she was assigned the case and she's handled it over these last several years, and time after time after time after time, all of the rulings, all the post conviction rulings that Zellner has filed and waited for a decision suck with on whether or not she could get a new trial for Steven Avery or just get Stephen Avery back into a courtroom to do an evidentiary hearing, which is basically a mini trial of sorts.

And every opportunity Zelner has walked into a closed door and just suck with, just time after time, always has ruled against Stephen Avery on his post conviction appeals.

to the text from this Kevin Ramlov that night. Tell us about what else Kevin Ramlov does and how Kathleen zem there gets wind of all of this.

going missing. And Ramlah was certain that while he was around that gas station that he had encountered a member of the Mattwak Sheriff's office, and it was pretty certain that it had to be of all people, Andy Colburn who everybody that's watched Making a Murderer and familiar with Regging Crew knows that he's one of the key central figures in the whole Stephen Avery case and actually going way back to the beginning of Steven Avery's first wrongful

conviction case, when Colburn was in the early days of his sheriff's duties working in the jail. So there's a long, long, long history with Andy Colburn and Steven Avery. And again, as you brought up with Ramlow was pretty certain that he had seen this Andy Colburn on what was probably supposed to be Andy Colbran's day off of work and

saw nonetheless at this gas station property. And so Ramblow was one of those first persons that Zellner had uncovered that really helped solidify and kind of changed the narrative as far as the possibility and probability that Teresa Halbik did in fact leave Stephen Avery's property, the Avery salvage Yard alive on Halloween afternoon, October thirty first of two

thousand and five. The narrative that Stephen Avery was convicted on at trial by ken Kratz was that Teresa Habbak came to the Avery property early that afternoon to do a photo shoot for one of the vehicles at Avery and his family was trying to sell, and that she was murdered on the property by Steven Avery and never left the property, whereas Kevin Ramblow is one of those key figures that comes forward and signs of Affidavid gives a statement to Zelener testifying to the fact Dan that

he strongly believes that he did, in fact see Teresa Holbuck's vehicle the turquoise colored green.

I both believe aren't true. But nonetheless we'll just say it's a turquoise cover colored rap four, but that it was seen at this turnaround area on the outskirts of Michigan, and so Ramlow was important and at least verifying the strong possibility that Allbuck did in fact leave the Avery property and somehow met her demise and her death off site, whether it was by Steven Avery or someone else.

fame or fortune at all. It was just he was somebody that insisted that he had come forward back when Teresa Habblck originally went missing, and Zelener and her investigators had a devil of a time trying to do their own research to verify his claims and insistence that he did in that contact the Mantwak Sheriff's office back at the time that Teresa Halblock went missing, insisting that he had a tempt to pass along to them. So Swinsky lives in Colorado now, and so he'd been gone from

Mantwak for several years. But back at the time when Teresa Habbuck disappearing October of two thousand and five, he was a newspaper delivery driver Iraqily for the company I previously worked for two different times Briginnett Wisconsin Media, which is part of the USA Today network. So he had delivered newspapers apparently, and I had never met him when he was an hour away from where I worked, but he delivered newspapers for the Mantwalk Newspaper, and he came forward.

He gave an aff David in the last year or two to Kathleen Zelener, testifying to the fact that he was delivering his newspapers, you know, sometime round four four thirty in the morning, while most of Wisconsin was sound asleep,

but that's when newspapers get delivered. And while he was delivering those newspapers, he was getting close to the Avery property, the averys salvage yard, and as he got closer, he saw two people and one was not wearing a shirt and probably because they were sweating from you know, the exertion. But one of the individuals he was sure was Stephen Avery's other nephew, the nephew that testified against him at the trial, the one that was the star witness for

the prosecution dan and his name was Bobby Dacy. And Sisky was not sure about the second individual. He had some a detailed description about the person's character, their their build, their beard, their physique, but he did not know the

name at all of the second person. But nonetheless he was sure that he saw two individuals, one being Bobby Dacy pushing a vehicle that basically mirrored you know, it was identical to the vehicle that Teresa Hallbot had a Round four that would later turn up five or six hours later, actually about six hours later, that vehicle was in big discovered on the outer edge of the Avery sandwich yard, which anybody that's watched Making Murder would remember that.

It's a very dramatic scene and dramatic component of the actual Stephen Avery trial. Woman named pampsterm that was out there with her daughter and discovered the vehicle being it was covered with a bunch of trees and branches, basically the sense of a message just as you know, how

to find the vehicle rather than hiding the vehicle. But like I said, so getting back to your original question about Tom Swinsky, Yeah, he's he came out of nowhere in the last couple of years insisting that that he did in fact see that he was an eyewitness to seeing Bobby Dascy and second person handling pushing the vehicle the Teresa halbut the Auto Trader magazine photographer that disappeared and was murdered. And so I thought that this was a huge revelation for this for this case, and Zelner

did as well. So she spent a considerable time of researching Swinsky, probing his background, verifying that in fact did work for Wisconsin Get News media and also tracked down his employment record stand to verify that his story matched up.

And then after she proved that that was all true, undertook the painstaking process that Dan of trying to actually verify his insistence that he had in fact contacted the Mantuak County Sheriff's office around the time of Teresa Halbeck's disappearance, because Zelener had no police reports and she was not aware of any audio, police radio, you know, that kind of stuff that was in her possession at the time that she had contacted and spoken with Tom Swinsky as she was trying to verify his story.

Ham Stem and her companion, so very suspicious behavior that Kathleen Zelner has to consider as well when you're looking for somebody other than the accused as the as the killer of Teresa Helbach.

But in Zelner's case, in a lot of other lawyer's case, especially in the wrongful conviction arena, it really is important to try to prove who else could have done it and show that the evidence is much stronger against that

other person than the person you're representing. And as you mentioned with Ryan Hilgis and Scott Blodoor, and both of them had strong and deep connections to Teresa Halbuck, one being a former boyfriend being Hilgis Blowdoorn lived with her at the time that she was missing, and Blowdoorn didn't

immediately report her missing. Hilgus Is people that watch making murderer notice and talked about at length on social media afterwards, had several scratches on his arms at the time that he was helping organize a lot of these missing person searches for Teresa Hollbock, and he also really didn't have a real good explanation to where his whereabouts two at

the time that she had disappeared. So there was definitely reason to look at both of those individuals separately as logical law suspects, you know, in addition to other people, and like we talked about, both of them took a lead role, in active role in helping organize these searches that were going on to the point where things just also seemed suspicious as far as the discovery of Trussa Hallbuck's vehicle, the fact that it was found covered with trees,

and broken pieces of wood. In my mind, Dan, it wasn't to hide the vehicle. It was done to send a signal. It was basically like putting a flag over it and saying this four thousand vehicles at this forty acre every salvage yarde right Here's basically I can't tell you talking like I'm Sheriff Pagel now, But basically he didn't exactly tell Pam Storm, or I don't think that he actually would have told Pam Storm walk out to the very back part of the property and you'll find

it on the left or something like that. It would have been probably conveyed to her by somebody else, possibly along the lines if you'll know it when you see it. And it basically was the only vehicle that was out there that was covered with these odd pieces of trees. That again, if you're Stephen Avery Dan or even Brendan Dacy or the two of them working together, what's the logic in actually covering the murder victim's vehicle with a couple of tree branches and limbs. That doesn't hide anything,

It draws attention to it. And that's what happened here, and that's how the vehicle was found. And as we talked about earlier, Tom Swhisky, of all people newspaper carrier is seeing Bobby Dancy in a second individual that's not Stephen Avery or Bobby's brother Brendan, the two individuals convicted of this crime, but he sees two individuals moving this vehicle hours before Pam Sterman her daughter discover it. Very strange, very strange you.

he's a fire and burn expert. Tell us what John de Han concluded after looking at the evidence in the burn pit and then the burn barrels and all the evidence that the police purportedly had regarding that.

to guilty verdict on the murder conviction. I should point out they did not, strangely enough, they found every not guilty on the mutilation, which is kind of a weird combination to find a multy and find him guilty of every other charge that he had.

she had him do research. In long story short, is that that his determination just knowing the proximity of the properties, knowing the fact that this was you know, October thirty first, This would have been October thirty first, or with you know, first part of November, but you know, with the weather at the outdoor factor here the proximity to Avery's garage, and that's a rickety garage. I've been out there several times. It was literally looked like if you would sneeze, it

would blow over. It was, you know, on the verge of falling apart, very very close in proximity to where Stephen Avery's burn pit was where he would just burn you know, junkin garbage, you know, the debris, just like everybody else in Wisconsin that lived in a rural setting like that. Nothing the farious there and it's proximity too. There was also a pro paint tank that was very

close by. So long story short, is that is that John Dehan came away absolutely convinced that, however Teresa Hallbuck was dismembered and her body burned, that it would not have taken place in an outdoor setting, just in a

wide open space such as even Avery's burn pit. And that fact alone contradicts with the fact that some of Teresa Halbeck's bones dan were discovered in the neighboring property in one of the burn barrels that Bobby Dassy had, which was again several feet away, a good distance between.

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delivered right to your door. Go to cookunity dot com slash murder or enter code murder before checkout for fifty percent off your first week. That's fifty percent off your first week by using code murder or going to cook unity dot com slash Now. You talk about gathering the evidence, You talk about the bones and the theory put forth that Steve Avery killed Teresa hallback with Brendan Dacy, his

nephew again in court tells the story. It sounds almost unbelievable that Brendan Dacy goes near Stephen Avery's trailer here's screaming, is not so concerned, but bangs on the door, and then his half dressed uncle comes to the door and then remarkably invites him in to the torture and rape and eventual murder of Teresa Hallbach. The idea though, that you mentioned that the burn pit had some bones and almost no teeth of Teresa Hallback, but Bobby Dacy's burn

barrel had fragments of Teresa Hallback's bones. Let's get to what Kathleen Zelner puts forth as the theory on how Bobby Dassy Scott Taddich is involved. But how Bobby Dasy is involved, how he was involved with the car when he left the property. Tell us what Kathleen Zellner puts forth as her theory on how this went down.

highways that's known as Cust Road. And Cust Road is important too, Dan, because at the time of Tesa hallbucks disappearance, prior to Stephen Avery actually being arrested for this murder, several of the police dogs in this case did in fact have several hits, several sent hits for Teresa Hallbuck in this area of cust Road, which again is a couple of miles away from the Stephen Avery trailer and also the salvage character. So there's definite evidence from the

dogs which would have no bias in the case. Is important to mention too, But the discovery of Teresa Hallbucks sent off off Cuss Road. So again, Zelder to this day will tell you she can't say one hundred percent certainly this is that's exactly the way it probably went down. But some of the evidence also points to that possibility, the blood spatter possibility that Hulbock was attacked around the

same area of the back of her vehicle. And again that's something else that Stuart James, blood stained analysis expert, who's actually an interview for two separate books now, but I was familiar with him from a previous book I did. But Stuart James did a lot of blood to stay analysis in this case stand and he supported that possibility that Hubbock was in fact harmed somewhere around the back of her Round four and that's where she was attacked. Again, this would put us a mile or two away from

the Stephen Avery property. Now what's interesting I want to point this out is that to remind people that when Bobby Dancy testified at Stephen Avery's trial, he came up with a peculiar story to give himself and his stepfather, his future stepfather, scotut Todtitch, both in Alibi at the same time. He contended that he had left a runyan acknowledge.

He claimed that I did, in fact leave to go deer hunting shortly after trees A. Hall Buck had left his property, claimed to he was sound successful, didn't have any luck, but claimed that on his way to go to his deer the property he was going to do the deer hunting that afternoon around three o'clock or so, and against a fifty mile an hour speed limit out there.

It's a State highway, two lane paved road. But he claimed that he was going one direction, he saw Scott Tottitch going the opposite direction, and that they waved at each other and saw each other. And again that's really important from a lot of standpoints for this case. As I mentioned, basically, would if you took that story at face value of if you're the police investigators in this case, then that would pretty much rule out the possibility that

they had involvement. But at the same time too, it gives them both, you know, salid Alibis as far as around the time frame that Honor, both of them could have been involved either in the murder or dismemberment or disposal of her vehicle or her body at the same time.

So again it was it was one of those very very strange moments in the trial that there's no I mean, you just either take them at their word that they're telling the truth, and if they're not telling the truth, then what other lies have these two individuals put forth about this case, Because that's a big one right there.

Of course, the county is afraid of the thirty six million dollar a lawsuit that's going to basically bankrupt them, and the legacy of that law enforcement would be tarnished forever and unique to the state to have that kind of expose in front of the public, especially with the Making a Murderer Netflix series and its popularity throughout the world.

But there are a couple things going on at the same time in terms of that rav four being on Stephen Avery's property ultimately, but as you write that, there is evidence that this was some manipulation and chicanery going on at the county gravel pit, which is nearby Avery's property.

But again, that's where a lot of the police officers were actually doing a lot of their investigation at the time of Teresa Holbeck's disappearance, even as Stephen Avery had emerged, or some of them had already zeroed in on Stephen Avery as the person that they were hoping to convict the rest for this crime. The fact is that they were spending considerable resources away the actual Stephen Avery's trailer and the areas where cat Crass is going to focus

when it goes to trial. But they were spending their time, like I mentioned earlier, in this area of Cuss Road, and then also as you'd point out, Dan on the County gravel pit properties, and it was at those gravel pit properties where again more bones were found, including what was probably believed to be Teresa Hallwick's pelvic bones, were

found out there. So that strongly raises the possibility that that location I'm talking about the County gravel pit properties, Dan, but that those gravel pits were the area where Teresa Hallbeck's body was incinerated, probably inside of a burn barrel pit again possibly that Bobby Dacy burn barrel, if in fact he had driven that big back with one of his family's golf carts.

spot you or suspect you. You know, if you had a bird barrel out there and your purpose was to dispose concinerate a human body, something that you had already killed. So again that County Care property could have been what the area where in Factory's aholveiccs bones were ultimately burned and destroyed.

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come up with looking pointing at an alternative suspect. Any suspect is what you need, what they're called, and in order to be successful in court prove that somebody else had a motive and strong possibility to infect be the killer. In fact, that she's so even though she's uncovered strong evidence point to Bobby Dassy as a possibility and also uncovering considerable evidence that was withheld from Stephen Avery and his original lawyers, Dean Strang and Jerry Beauting by the

prosecution and the police. In spite of all that, she's been unsuccessful in getting a new trial or getting a new hearing just for Avery end So one of the reasons why she thinks that that's probably happened here, unlike her other successful cases over the years, is that the Wisconsin political arena, Democrats and Republicans it seems, but just elected officials, do not want to endure another ten episode season that'll bring more notoriety and bad press and publicity

to the state of Wisconsin and its criminal justice system, as happened as a result of making Murder season one in December of twenty fifteen and then season two in October of twenty eighteen. And the best way from a strategy standpoint, Sewner's figured this out is that if the courts, if Wisconsin's judges and politicians are able to keep her

and Steven Avery on successful. That limits the opportunity for a third season because there's really that much for the producers and the filmmakers to go with at this point in time. So much of the story has been told. And that's even true on my end, you know, as

far as writing writing a book is concerned. So that's where Selener's kind of felt that the fact that Stephen Avery's case, although it's really helped her from a standpoint of shining a light on injustice and also fairness and professionalism Wisconsin's criminal justice system, the negative has been just the fact that Steven Avers case is basically so toxic as far as the Wisconsin judges aren't concerned, they're too scared or too timid to actually go against the green

and make a decision that would really make other judges and other people before them look bad by giving Zelener and Steven Avery another day in courts. So many convicted criminals throughout North America, especially here in the United States, get time and time again for way way way way

way less technicalities. And in this case, as Elenor believes she's proven, she can point to another logical suspect with strong evidence, circumstantial evidence that he feels wasn't available back in two thousand and seven when Steven Avery had his original trial, and therefore he deserves a new trial where she can put on that evidence and let a jury decide whether or not Steven Avery should be found guilty or of Teresa Hollbrick's murder under these better circumstances for her.

freed from prison. But she says that she's very confident that will be somebody will look at this and grant another trial, because she says that Judge Sikowitch Subkwitz did a number of egregious errors, including believing that incorrectly, that there was not bones in Bobby Dacy's burn barrel, and exclusively all the bones were in the burn.

probably the better word. Dan, that I'm going to get it right as far as just with the basic important evidentary facts of the case are. And here we are in August of twenty twenty three, eighteen years after the homicide originally happened, but about ten years or so that she's been on the case, and she's still getting key

evidentrary facts wrong. That and by doing it that way, it's really further pointing the evidence against Stephen Avery rather than at someone else or an alternative suspect, which is the way that that evidence unbiasedly or objectively looked it's one of those things that makes me wonder if she was just sloppy the whole time or just kind of looked at this case as I just got stuck with this and I have to deal with it, and I don't want to upset anybody.

her vehicle. That doesn't actually prove that he was driving her vehicle. But Dan, we're talking about it's the murder of victim's vehicle. So if Bobby Nascy, what in the world would be why would he even be handling, pushing around the vehicle of a missing woman that we're going to later discover had been murdered in dismember it, so you know why in the world would be he'd be

handling it. It was just really strange and goofy and I I go off on too many tangents, but I will point out that Judge Suckwitz in August also pointed to Brendan Dacy, Bobby, Bobby Dacy's brother, the one that's condemned that was also convicted, probably even more wrongfully. So people you know wrongful conviction movement believe in the case.

But Judge Suckwitz cited Brendan Dacy's supposed confession as further evidence to back up her reason for rejecting the Tom Sewinsky affidavit, and also the evidence pointing to Bobby Dassy as the killer.

going to handle Stephen Avery from here on out. So we didn't know for about a week or two it was going to happen where what judge was going to handle the case in the lo and behold, Dan, the case got assigned to a brand new judge. And I say brand new, I mean it that way. He had just gotten elected a judge back in April of last year. So brand new judge was a brand new position that the courts had created in Wisconsin because of Mantowah County's a growth and case slow numbers for the other judges.

So this brand new judge, Anthony Lambert, I believe is how you say his name. But he had previously worked as a police officer for about six years. Then he became a lawyer and worked for several years as a public defender. So he has represented indigent people and he has represented people trying to fight the system or prove their innocence. And then in most recent years he was working as a prosecutor as an assistant district attorney for

Mattwah County. So Kathleen Xellner is very optimistic that at least she feels that she's got a judge now in the case that really is not politically connected dan or beholden to people that have a deep interest in mistake in the outcome of Stephen Avery's conviction, in Brendan Dacy's conviction. So time will tell. We have this conversation again a year or two from now, being in a better position,

I tell you you know how things turned out. But for now, Kathleen Zellner feels optimistic that that hopefully this judge will give her in Steven Avery a fair shake when it comes to examining and weighing the new evidence and information that she and her team of investigators and team of world renowned experts have uncovered that looks at the strong possibility that the version of events that were presented in two thousand and seven at Stephen Avery's trial

were not the real facts as far as how Teresa Halbuck met her death, who killed her, and wherefact she was dismembered, And we'll see where things go.

he was wrongfully convicted again you imagine. So there was a lot of forces, it seems to be in Wisconsin, from bringing in investigators that were in retirement. It just seems there's a lot of people with a vested interest in not having Steven Avery get out of jail anytime soon.

or other witnesses. And we know factually that that happened on several occasions here where Steven Avery's lawyers were not presented with information or evidence including this. Tom Swinsky won't call where he hadn't been made a phone call to the Mantwak Sheriff's office within days of Tresa Hallbuck disappearing, calling them to let them know that he had discovered two individuals moving pushing the vehicle.

a defense strategy. If Dean Straying and Jerry Bauting, the original lawyers would have known that somebody else was in fact pushing Teresa Hollbuck's vehicle within five or six hours of actually being discovered on the Avery Salvage property on November. You know, in November of two thousand and five, you.

But right from the beginning the police trying to portray the computer as Brendan's when in fact it was Bobby's, and then Kathleen Zellner did the forensic evidence to say that he was lying at trial saying he was sleeping when he was accessing that computer for very violent pornography topics and images before Teresa Halbach came to the property

all during that morning. So her assessment is that that CD that would have been very damaging, those files would have been very damaging to the narrative of Ken Kratz, and as a result, withheld that information. One of the files or some of the folders that were very very criminating were with help from booting and strength at Steven abristrel right.

They would have been able to prove that he'd been on the computer for several hours that day and certainly smashed holes into his testimony, and then on top of that, obviously get into the whole disturbing images in the keyword searches that he had been undertaking the fact his mom then would hire computer technicians to remove and erase certain timeframes of his activities on the computer, so the police or anybody would never been able to access that he

had folders created. For there was a truce of Hallbuck folder that was created. I think I mentioned the other one was called DNA DAN DNA, and then I think a third one was Stephen Avery, but certainly Hallbuck and DNA and it's you know again, it's like now, Gary Hunt, Kathleen Zelder's world renowned computer expert, pointed out in his affide but that he was he himself was not able to determine the time frame you know, when thows the

folders actually were created. But again, the fact that there was so much erasing done to the computer around the time frame that Teresa Halbeck had been visiting, you know, and already going to the every salvage yard property over several occasions to the several days after her disappearing, and the police investigation into her disappearance in murder certainly raised strong possibilities that Bobby Dassi may have had something to

do with it. Otherwise, why in the world would these files be turning up missing and why would his family go to these lengths that they did to erase and destroy this information that was in fact on the computer. And as you point out, I'm glad you did, the police wrongfully tried to portray this family computer as being his other brother, Brenda Dassie's computer, when in fact Bobby was the one that used it and other family members.

I've given Affi David's backing up Zelner, you know, and supporting her and pointing that out that Bobby Dacy was the one that was pretty much home all the time using the computer, and while there were back to other siblings living at the house, Bobby was the one that pretty much used that computer and he's the only one that really everything could point back.

that Brendan could have possibly helped Bobby Dassy. But Stephen Avery does reveal that he believes, you know, with one hundred percent certainty, that Bobby Dassy is the one that he's always believed in and strongly believes was responsible for

Teresa Holbeck's demise. And don't even point out to me too, that that he knew that Bobby had a history of lying and you know, and even talked about some situations where, you know, where Bobby was taking parts from a lot of the uh, you know, the jump vehicles, the scrap from the scrap yard at the Avery's salvage yard, the massive salvage yard and selling those off to people he knew through school but denied that he did it, and

and that kind of stuff. So so Stephen already believes that Bobby Dassy has a strong history of lying and would do anything to get himself out of a jam and get himself out of trouble, especially you know, in a murder case. So yeah, it was revealing that the fact that you'd have family feel that strongly against other family members. But Stephen Avery has had i mean eighteen years now, I mean since two thousand and five, eighteen years that he's been accused of our incarcerated for Trusa

Hobblocks murder. So he's had a lot of time. Eighteen years too, Dan is how much time he spent for the first case. He was wrongfully convicted for the rape and that happened in eighty five and he was let out in two thousand and three.

Thank you very much for this interview, John Ferrick. And for those people that might want to take further look at your work, this book and your other work, where might they go?

the audio side to give that a listen. And lastly, John Ferrick dot com is also another place to take a look at Wrecking Crew and or all of my other two crime books over the years.

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