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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good evening, from historical accounts to modern cases, explore the captivating psychology behind these killer women, unraveling their motives and unveiling the dark complexities of human behavior. The fair sect. We've often heard this cliched expression being used to refer to women. Although it has become increasingly outdated, the mindset still exists that women are the gentle and nurturing sex. When it comes to murder, that notion gets turned on
its head. And this isn't a recent phenomenon. We can find plenty of female killers going back in history. In fact, some of the world's most notorious serial killers have been women. These female killers give their male counterparts a run for their money and deserve to be counted among the most famous serial killers on earth. The disturbing histories of notorious women, from the chilling accounts of infamous black widow murders to the spine tingling narratives of women who shock the world
with their sinister deeds. This anthology deals deep into the minds of these deadly women Spanish eras and continents. These tales of true crime offer a chilling exploration of the darkest corners of human nature. The book that we're featuring this evening is Women Who Murder, an international collection of deadly true crime tales, with my special guest author and editor Mitzi so Retto. Welcome back to the program and thank you very much for this interview. Mitzi so Retto.
Hi Dan, thanks so much for having me back. I really appreciate.
Thank you so much, and congratulations on the newest book, Women Who Murder.
Yeah, I know it's been a whirlwind since this all started with the true crime book.
Absolutely tell us about the table of contents for this one and the authors in this collection.
Sure, we've got several authors from around the world. The first story I'll go in order here down in the Ditch Joanna Denihi, Cereal Stabber, which is by Charlotte Platt. Next up is Ruth Snyder the original Femme Fatale, which is by Kieran Conliffe. Then we have Innocence Taken the Murder of Cais a Boudreau which is by Mike Brown. Then we have Mahin Monster or Victim, which is by me.
Then we've got Twisted Firestarter which is by C. L. Raven, followed by On the Courthouse Steps The Trial of Susan Smith by Kathy Pickens, followed by Angelina Napolitano I Am Not a Bad Woman by Ed Butts. Then we have the strange case of Kelly Lane by Anthony Ferguson, followed by Jolly Joseph, The Kerala Cyanide serial Killer by Shashi Kadappa. Then we have Women Fight Back by Tom Larson, Beauty and Beast by Eli Goyanas, Annabisessto, Anna Funesto by Alisha
holland Dead Woman Walking by Joan Renner. And we conclude with Mona Fandy, The Malaysian Murderer by Chang Chi Yen so.
An international collection. Some authors are returning from your previous collections.
Correct, Yes, yes, and some new people have arrived on the scene as well.
Yes, and these stories surround some extraordinary cases, international stories that certainly people have not heard about before. Let's talk about your own story, Mahine, Monster or Victim.
Yes, this was a really interesting one. To write. You know, I like to I guess I like to challenge myself by finding really obscure stories that are you really have to go ferret out information left and right. This is actually about Iran's first known female serial killer. It's got so many dimensions to it's just you know, I mean,
we think of serial killers that are women. You know, Aileen Warnos is one of the notorious ones that comes to mind, But in Mahin's case, there's just so many, so many dimensions to her story, which is why I subtitled it monster or a Victim, basically leaving it to the reader to decide was she a monster or was she a victim?
You're right early on in this story that in the early two thousands there were a number of serial killers with very very high body counts, including the spider killer. Can you tell us about a few of the killers that you include before we start talking about Mahine?
Sure, you know, I was actually quite surprised by this. I mean, I guess, you know, we tend to think of serial killing as being a popular pastime in the West, as it is, you know, there does seem to be a lot more serial killers in Western cultures but in the twenty first century, just with you know, and we're only what twenty four years into that century, there's been some pretty heinous serial killers in Iran. As you reference the spider killer Sayid Hana, I'm sorry, i'l mangel is
his last name. Let's just call him the spider spider killer. He actually targeted female sex workers in Mashad, saying he was cleansing the city of moral corruption. And apparently it looks like his known victim tally sixteen. Then there was the Tehran Desert vampire whose name is Mohammad Bije. He was apparently convicted of raping and murdering at least sixteen young boys and we're talking boys ages eight to fifteen,
and also some adults. And there's actually accounts that say he may have killed more than forty people and told yeah, and then we have another woman hater by the name of well, they call him the cyclist killer, Farid Babulani, and it looks like he killed between fifteen women and girls and even a boy in a couple of cities there.
And then there is a serial killer known as the Highway killer Omid Barak, who targeted women who cheated or at least whom he believed cheated on their partners or spouses. And he's thought to have murdered at least ten women in the Karage area. So yeah, I mean, I didn't even look at what the previous century had because I mean the relevance was this story that I wrote about is more contemporary story.
Right. The man is murdered in two thousand and six, and you say, between February and May two thousand and nine, five women are murdered, and the first murder there's no indication obviously that there's any serial killing involved. Take us to what happens after that first murder and then obviously the second murder, and when there is some indication that a serial killing is underway, serial killer is underway.
Yeah, exactly. We start out with this man who is basically found murdered and there's really nothing to you know, suspect there's anything going on. And then when we've got some years past, suddenly there's a spate of women being murdered and there's a there's a pattern. They're all older women, you know. So serial killers do tend to find a type.
They do like their types, and so obviously that's what it looked like when the police start putting it together, like, who are all these women, say, ages late fifties through their seventies that are being found murdered and they're all strangled and their bodies are dumped. You know, there's a definite pattern here, So they start realizing that something's going on here. Obviously early on it's you know, they don't wait till all five murders have and they start investigating
sooner than that. But yeah, there's there's definitely a pattern. There's there's eyewitness accounts that start having pieces put together about these women that are you know, for instance, one woman was going out of blood at her lab going for blood tests and you know, she's founded. We have a woman who disappears from a shrine. We have a woman found murdered in her in her apartment, and there's just these parallels and and one big parallel was the fact that their jewelry vanished.
And also they were yeah there, and also they were killed with their own head scarfs.
Yeah. Yeah, So the murders do get progressively more brutal as they go along as well, and then there is an indication that these women were possibly drugged so therefore knocked out.
So police are wondering how this person could get to these victims, that they must have known them in some way, had some connection to them in some way.
Well, either a connection or as was revealed later, the killer clearly got these victims to trust her, you know, so, I mean, you know why. Of course, we have to realize too that Iran as a slightly different culture than the West, and perhaps people are not as suspicious of each other, you know, like, for instance, if some say you're in one particular instance, the woman one of the victims is at a shrine and she's befriended by this other woman who comes along and says, oh, you know,
let's pray together. And you know, and it's a nice young woman, and perhaps you look upon this young woman as a as a daughter figure, you know, she could conceivably be your daughter. And so she says, hey, do you want to lift home? You know, chances are you'll say sure, why not? You know, you're not going to think anything of it. But that's that's how these women in becoming victims.
Now, finally the police learn about all of this much much later, but there is finally someone that comes forward, the community is frightened, and but there finally is you write a credible witness that comes forward and has a harrowing tale to tell police.
Correct, yes, I mean obviously there's all the attention seekers who come forward before that, wasting police time and saying, oh, yes, you know, I was, you know, almost a victim, et cetera. But then they get this one woman who has a story to tell, who was actually the same thing happened at this same shrine in which one of the victims
was murdered, taken and murdered. And she describes being befriended by this young lady, someone who, as I said, can conceivably be her daughter in age, offers her a lift, and then she keeps pushing this box of juice on her, like does I have to drink this juice? This, you know, refresh yourself? Have this juice, and pushing it and pushing it and pushing it, and the lady's starting to freak out, you know, thinking this something's out right, and she's saying,
please stop this car. I want to get out. I want to get out, And finally, finally she's allowed out of the car after she's banging on the car windows to get out. And it turns out that, you know, that was one of the things with the with the juice box being so you know, important in this story is the juice box was drugged. It was laced with
drugs to knock these victims out. So she is actually shown and she gives like an e fit rendering, and later on, you know, she's able to identify the woman because the woman had been known to police before because in some previous investigations as a you know, as a potential suspect along with other people of course, so she's finally identifying who this who this serial killer.
Is now once they once they do that, you you right though, that please don't believe for a second that this woman could have done all of this carnage herself, all this murderous damage herself. But still they questioned her, and you say that she stays mom on this for forty eight hours. Tell us what happens when she finally admits and starts telling police the details.
Well, yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, it was just so unusual that they would even have a female, a female serial killer, especially one that was able to strangle victims, dump bodies. I mean, this is, you know, quite a physical endeavor, and of course culturally they're not going to think a woman is doing what would be a man's job, so to speak. Mahine, our serial killer in the story, finally does confess because so much evidence is found in
her apartment. She just cannot explain away, no matter how hard she tries to explain it away. And you know, of course they also think her husband was involved, and he was he was not her partner in crime. So she finally does break down and confesses to almost all the murders, but she holds back on one of the murders for a couple of valid reasons. One of them is the fact that the victim was actually related to her.
It was her aunt in law, namely her mother in law's sister, and her mother in law is basically the only person who really tried to help her with her financial difficulties. Unfortunately, Mahine had a child with cerebral palsy, so you can see that there was a lot of things going on in the need for money and her financial situation. So she held back on confessing to that one murder until she knew someone would be there to
look after her. Sick child, and then she finally spilled the beans as it were.
Well, like I said, then you're right. The police still don't believe that she did it all herself, and they insist that she go along with them to the crime sites and also do a reconstruction of the murders for them.
Yes, correct, and they were quite you know exactly, and they went to the site, they had her go through and act through what she did, and it all added up one hundred percent. There was just no doubt that she did it, and she did it on her own.
You're right that she became very skilled in this killing and saw it as a business fleecing these women of their jewelry. She thought that she was less guilty by killing older women. She also learned things like putting a bunch of objects in the front seat, so it necessitated these people that she was giving a ride to the go in the back, which would mean that less people
might notice the person in the back. And you also talked about the killer wearing something that would make her less noticeable to any witness.
Yeah, she tried to be as anonymous as possible by wearing around the chowdor, which is sort of like this overgarment that you know, it's I mean, you've no doubt seen women who are totally covered with that that you can't even see they're under, you know, the clothes they have underneath it, so that she's so hard to identify, because all you would see would be like this little round face showing you know, you can't say, oh, it
was the lady with the colorful headscarf or whatever. She just completely made sure that she blended in with everybody else, you know. But the one determining factor in how the eyewitness accounts and whatever was her car. It wasn't necessarily her physical description. It was the car she drove that was a dead giveaway. It was an older model Renault.
She also gave a full confession and was griping about the treatment from these drug dealers that she sought out to get sedatives to knock out her victims, and also later she wanted to get a gun to speed up the whole process. Tell us as you do that, as you write her misfortune dealing with people unscrupulous, surprise, surprise.
I know, yeah, it's almost it's almost comic, really, I mean, you know, they no doubt she obviously wanted these drugs to get into the boxes of juice. So she heard that there was this one street in Tehran, the in the capital, the Iran's capital, that you could get anything, absolutely anything, and she went down there and she hooked
up with these drug dealers. They sold her this so called foreign drug, this you know, wonderful drug that was going to do everything that she needed it to do, which it was later revealed it was just stuff that she could have got at a pharmacy herself and mixed together. I mean, obviously they saw her coming, you know, I mean, they probably didn't get a lot of customers like that coming over. And then she decided to upper game a bit, you know, maybe incorporated to incorporate a gun. So she
sought these guys out. Again. She also sought them out for fake receipts for gold, because she obviously had She had to sell the gold that she was stealing. That was the whole point. She needed the money, so she sold the gold, so they gave her that. Apparently that worked okay, But when she wanted the gun, they sold her.
You know, they sold her this supposed gun in the box and she wants to check the box and they basically shamed her into like not opening it, you know, as you would expect, and she doesn't find out until later it's a piece of metal.
Yeah, and you're right too, that test out the poisons or pardon me, the sedative value of these drugs she had bought from these dealers. She tested it out on her husband.
Yes, I have. I found that kind of funny because he claimed he was like not unconscious for days and he called her a devil for doing that. But I mean, as one would read the story, there isn't a lot of sympathy to be had for Mahine's husband. I mean, he contributed to a lot of the problems that she had financially.
This case veers off interestingly and it sounds a little bit like Aileen Warnos's claim that she became involved in killing men out of self defense. It didn't have much credibility as details of the you know, the first murder, then the subsequent murders lent no credibility to her claim. But you talk about that this woman made the same sort of claim about her landlord and that was the first murder. Tell us about that.
Yes, exactly, that was the man that was found dumped. But then again, we had this several year gap before she started killing women, but apparently he had taken quite a fancy to her and essentially was hounding her, you know, like, oh, you know, come away with me, you know, let's run off to other you know, I'll marry you. I mean he was already married, but that doesn't matter. It was
getting kind of it was just getting bad. There were reports one of Mahine's daughters says that she saw him fondling Mahin's undergarments that were hanging on the clothesline in the courtyard. I mean, getting really pervy here. Apparently there was a confrontation that ended up going He lived in the same building, he was like upstairs, so it's not
like she could avoid this man. And she was getting panicked because you know, in Iran, if you're accused, or supposedly if you are, you know, an adulterer, that's that comes with a death penalty. So this is pretty serious stuff here. So this landlord was becoming enough of a problem and they just it ended up becoming this altercation. She killed him. I don't believe from what I understand,
that it was anything premeditated. It just she just lashed out and this is what happened, and it launched her into having to get rid of his body, dumping his body, et cetera. And you know, I kind of surmised that perhaps she just just exploded already with the powerlessness that she had, and this perhaps set her on her future career. Shall we say?
Well, I'm not to disagree with you, but she was very cool headed, very much like a serial killer in the planning and then the post killing. She went very calmly after getting rid of a body or putting a body in a trunk, and then going picking up her kids and acting very very normal.
Oh yeah, exactly. But you know, again with the killings, each like each woman that she killed, it did progress. I mean there was a lot of apparently her first female victim, she was uncertain if she was going to kill her, but then she just realized, well, you know,
I can be identified, and that started it. But there was some remorse at the beginning, But as the killings progressed, I guess she just sort of, you know, went with the flow and became accustomed to it and as you say, became increasingly calculated in the killings until she probably in a way divorced herself from the humanity of her victims.
What did she have to say in terms of the rationale for the murder of her relative? You say, this is the only person. She said, it was the only person that ever cared for her, aided her in any way. And yet, well, no, it wasn't that.
It was the aunt in law. So that was her mother in law's sister she killed, and it was the mother in law that was such a was the only person who helped. That's why she was not confessing to that particular murder. But I guess she just saw this particular murder as being an easier target. She didn't have to actually go out and find the victim as she
did with the other four women. So, you know, she went there one morning around breakfast time, when nobody was around, and she had her drugged box of juice, and you know, apparently I guess she knew that her aunt in law had jewelry in the house. You know, gold jewelry is just very you know, it's very popular and Iran. You know, people love their gold jewelry there, and so you know, she knew she'd pash in and she obviously did.
Now, the husband gets dragged into the first murder. She comes to him because, as you had mentioned, that she had difficulty actually getting rid of that body. She went back a couple of days after she had dumped it into the canal and it was still evidence people could see the body, so she employed her husband to help.
Yeah, that's the only time apparently that he was actually involved in anything. She did finally get his body pushed off like an overpass and it fell down below, And as you mentioned, she went back to check a couple of days later and there was the wrapped up bodies still down there and she needed help moving it. She wanted to move it underneath the overpass so it couldn't be seen from above. And that's where she recruited her husband.
And I'm actually kind of surprised by that, you know, I would be surprised that she would even have asked him under the circumstances. But maybe she explained about the harassment as she was getting from him and he went along with it. But from everything that came after that, he was not involved whatsoever in the serial killings of the women and apparently didn't know about them.
Now, let's talk about how she could possibly be a victim and how you write that there is any sympathy for this killer.
Well, you know her circumstances. She was quite estranged from her family, the financial issues. You know, her husband was out of work and he was also a drug addict. He did not seem to contribute in any way to the household financially or even moral support or taking care of the kids. And everything fell on her shoulders. Again, she has this child with cerebral palsy who needs treatment.
This costs money. She had also lost the employment she had she was a driving instructor, and the car that she used there was an accident, the car needed repairs. She didn't have money for the repairs. She didn't even have money to keep paying the payments on the car. So there was any income gone right there. Husband's not contributing. She even said in an interview that he did not do his job as a husband or provider or father.
Her mother, which I mean, there's been references that this was she targeted these women as a mother image kind of thing, and you know that may be true. Her mother seemed to be acting against her it every return when creditors came looking for Mahine, and they would be like even going to her mother's house. Her mother helpfully gave them Mahin's address phone number, so they can go and harass her for you know, these debts. She apparently there was an inheritance from her father that the mother
prevented her from getting. So's there's money that could have solved a lot of problems, helped her with her child, helped her with the household bills that was prevented. So her mother doesn't sound like she was a very nice person, were very supportive or really cared about her. So you've got that going on, got these financial pressures. She got into more debt because she took out a supposed loan government loan. Found out it was a con there was no loan. The guy conned her, So then she had
more debts. So all of this stuff is just piling and piling and piling up on her. And no, it doesn't justify going out and murdering women and stealing their gold, of course it doesn't. But you know, there's always another side. And in a way, she was a victim herself, and perhaps it was never going to end well for her.
Yeah, she read she was only permitted to go to grade three. She was married at fourteen, and all this misfortune, but also that she hated her mother and decided to take revenge.
Well, can you blame her? Really?
Yeah?
Yeah, like I said this her, she certainly didn't seem to get much support from her family. I mean, she had siblings and everything, and you know, she was very Everyone who knew her said she was a lovely lady. She was very lovable. I mean even the people who had under arrest said that, you know, she just it's yeah, you know, there's just sometimes you just don't know what we're a person, what a person could be driven to, and it's just tragic no matter how we look at it.
Yeah, she read. She was convicted on six counts of robbery and six counts of premeditated murder. For the robbery, she received twenty four months, but seventy four lashes of the murder.
Yeah. The death penalty, yeah, yeah, she was hanged.
Yeah.
She said some interesting things, not in her own defense, regarding whether she should receive the death penalty.
Yeah, that she should be executed six times or something to that effect. She said in an interview. I mean, she obviously knew what she did. She wasn't trying to excuse it or you know, fluff it off. She knew she was guilty, and I mean, obviously, deep down she was sickened by the fact that she did these things. But you know, as I said, there's just no telling what someone's going to do when they're pushed against the wall and when they're totally desperate like that.
You spoke to some filmmakers that did an award winning documentary and you talk, got a chance to talk to them. Tell us what that conversation into.
Yeah, I was really that was an extra perk when I found out that there was a documentary film made in twenty eighteen. I don't know if people are aware of it, but I mean, there is a vibrant filmmaking culture in Iran. They have film festivals and just like other countries do, and the film, which is called Mahine, has won several awards at different film festivals in Iran.
So I spoke with the director and also the actor who played Mahine in the film, and I just kind of wanted to get their feedback about how they felt. And overall the impression was that, for instance, the media coverage this case got that it was very very one sided, In fact, the actor she said that the media made things up to just kind of pad their journalism about
the case. One thing that they both stressed was what appealed to them the most about being involved in this film was that the social issues need to be looked at and not Yes, you know, you could just be going along in your life, your everyday life, but then circumstances get on top of you and there's and if you don't have any kind of support or help, things could go very, very bad, as they did for Mahine. So the social issues thing was very big with both the director and the actor.
They made a fascinating statement. They said Mahine was condemned more because she was a woman rather than a man.
Yeah, I mean I think that's probably not too surprising, and especially for Iran, that's even less surprising.
Yeah, exactly, and not just Iran, I would say, though.
No, no, that's true, that's true. But I think also you know the fact that I think being so powerless in that kind of environment would have is even worse.
Yes, absolutely that as an opportunity to hear these messages with.
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Now, another one of the stories that's in this collection is Ruth Schneider, the original femme fatale, and you take us to January thirteenth, nineteen twenty eight, front page News, New York Daily News, and the headline in big letters and explanation mark dead.
Yes, this famous Ruth Snyder case. This was a woman who was very vilified by the media and the press. And we're, you know, we're at the beginning of the twentieth century. I guess I suppose that's no surprise. You know what, actually how this story jumped out at me was the fact that this case is what inspired the film Double Indemnity. And I'm a film noir fan and that is my absolute favorite film noir. And when I saw this story come in from the writer, I was like, yes,
this is definitely going in the book. And the whole thing does end up becoming an insurance scam. But essentially, you know Ruth Snyder, you know, she was a young lady stenographer whatever she was, and she meets this man accidentally and ends up marrying him, and you know, he's well established, and she figures it's a good match. It seemed like it was a good match. Then as the marriage progresses, there's a lot of he kind of just
doesn't care anymore. You know, they used to have this more of a glittering lifestyle and whining and dining and going out on the town, and then it's like the minute they got married, it was like, I'll just stay home. I don't care. And you know, Ruth's a young lady. She wants to go out, she wants to have fun. You know, same thing happened when they had a child
that he just wasn't that bothered. And so, I mean, I suppose it's only natural that her eyes straight and she met a gentleman and began an affair with him, and things spiraled from there.
You say that this husband, Albert, he was furious when she told him she was pregnant, and even more furious when he told her when she told him that she was having a daughter.
Yeah. Yeah, again, doesn't sound like a very nice.
Guy, doesn't And he became a big drinker and not a nice guy when he drank either.
Correct. So obviously we've got Ruth is becoming increasingly involved with his jud Gray, who she met and she's you know, her husband, so she says threatened to kill her on more than one occasion as well, again with as you mentioned, the alcohol and all of that. He was not a nice drunk and so you know, she tells this stuff to her lover and they kind of decide, well, you know, we better do some thing about this before you know,
he hucks first and kills you. So they hatch a plan and it involves insurance fraud, which is basically, you know, the double indemnity I referenced earlier, which is a major part of the story. Is you know that you'll get double the insurance if someone is either through suicide or murder or whatever. And so that was the plan, was to get this nice chunk of money and get rid of elopers. But you know, she ruth tried to kill
her husband several times before. It's almost comical that it's as if no matter what she did, it didn't work. I think she tried to get him in the garage with the car with the exhaust fumes. That didn't work. She tried all kinds of things and in the sky just wouldn't go. I guess they figured, well, Okay, we need to come up with a plan, and they did come up with a so called burglary gone wrong plan.
You say, though, that she just came to be. An insurance man came to the door, and he was very very ambitious because she wanted to take out fifty thousand dollars on her husband in this double indemnity, and she
obviously needed her husband's approval and permission and signature. So, as you're write, this insurance man was so eager to do business that he allowed her to set the details on how that would happen, and she said she would get a blank state signature on a blank piece of paper and use that.
Yeah.
Essentially, out of all the insurance that was taken out on him, only one I believe was legitimate, and it's the only one that got paid off at the end, and it was very paltry. But yes, so the insurance guy was also up on fraud and forgery charges, so he was not innocent in this either, although I don't think he suspected where this was going to go. But yeah, so it was basically yes to cash in on this insurance.
As whenever you have, like for instance, partners in crime, I think we've seen it time and time again that when they're both finally caught, then the finger pointing starts and it's like no, no, no, he did it, she did it. And that is basically how this all what ends up happening here is each one accuses the other and that they're the ringmaster, they're the ones who thought of it, they're the ones who did the actual killing.
So it became one great, big mess. But basically they both ended up falling down for it.
It's an incredible plan that they cook up to be able to kill the husband.
Well, yeah, very very slick actually, because they set it
up first. Where As I said, it was staged as a burglary gone wrong, but they actually got very clever where they set it up beforehand where jud Ruth's lover, there was supposed prowler who was spotted maybe a few days or a week or so before, so there was already port of this supposed prowler who was seen around the house, so that set it up beautifully for the actual burglary, whereas the prowler obviously gained entry sometime in the middle of the night, Ruth and her husband Albert
had come home from a party, which a very unfortunate party because Albert had been drinking and he was being nasty and there was this fight, and so they just left and they came home. The daughter was staying somewhere else because you know, obviously she had to be looked after while her parents were out, and so Ruth cleverly she left the door unlocked so jud could come in.
And the whole plan was basically to kill Albert in his bed, and then Ruth would stage it so that she supposedly was also almost killed, you know, like whacked over the head and was found unconscious. But you know, it all unraveled because all these things she said that was done, and being unconscious for hours and hours and hours, there was no actual evidence that, well, there's nothing wrong with your head. There's no evidence that somebody whacked you
on the head that would render you unconscious for several hours. So, I mean, her whole story and all this stuff she was telling the police, they started to say, hmm, this is not adding up.
Yeah, it's interesting too that the husband is found with a picture wire tightly wrapped around his neck. And then you talk about all of this evidence, blatant evidence against her found and yet both of these people start pointing the finger, and both of them come up and especially her, with some incredible stories to try to explain.
Oh. Absolutely, yeah. I mean, well, Judd himself set the stage, you know as well. He was supposedly out of town, and he set it up where he was like, you know, seeing at the front you know, at the front desk, or he was checking his messages, or he took a bath. There was you know, water in the bathtub in the morning. So it's like, well, no, he's out of town. How could he possibly be you know, in New York or wherever doing this when he was not you know, nowhere
near there. He was at this hotel in another city. So I mean, he quite cleverly set it up. But his story fell through because of a very cunchyentious hotel maid, which I guess they never expected that to happen, who kept something that ended up proving that out that jud story was also fabricated. But you know what's interesting is is Ruth also kind of played herself up as this victim coming in, you know, to the trial with her rosary beads and the whole thing.
Yes, but they found some damning evidence, like a chloroform rag under his head, the husband's head. Her daughter awoke because the mother was making a lot of noise, but her feet were tied but her hands weren't tied. So and later she said, well, she just got bored waiting for somebody to discover. So all that planning was for naught because the post murder cover up was very, very sloppy.
Yeah, yeah, you know, she just I guess she was a self defeating thing, you know that she's she's bored waiting around for somebody to discover her being tied up, and then she goes and gets herself into the hallway, and that obviously starts throwing up some questions somewhere. Perhaps they would have gotten away with it if she would have stuck to the plan, but she she didn't.
Yeah, and you just mentioned about that person that cleaned up the room but also took that wastebasket out of the room once she knew what had happened and then called police after with that. Without that, there might not have been the verdict or the result for police exactly.
Yeah. I believe it was a train ticket that was found in the waste paper basket. And how could you you know, if you weren't in that if you weren't on the train, if you hadn't been in that city, then how would there be a train ticket there? So that unraveled it. And you know, jud enlisted a friend of his as well to kind of, you know, help him cover his tracks, although that friend had no idea what it involved. He thought it was some kind of verbal romantic twist.
It's very interesting, just like the last story, when we said that the documentary journalist had remarked that this, the woman involved, was much more persecuted than any man would have in this particular case. You say that Ruth had already had been convicted in the court of public opinion, and yet and yet the husband had sympathetic treatment in the press.
Yeah.
I Ruth was really vilified by this. I mean, you know that she became this this hated person, this this horrible, horrible monster for doing what she did. You know, no one talked about the abuse she got from her husband, Albert, or even the fact that you know, he apparently threatened to kill her, which you know, I can easily believe that that was true going by his behavior toward her. But yeah, I mean, the press hated her. Politicians hated her.
Everybody hated her. She had, you know, disparaging nicknames in the press, which is I think we've seen that with many cases though that's not unusual. But yeah, I mean when she was finally executed, it was like a celebration that had happened, almost like you know, when Ted Bundy was executed. That that was like people did celebrate that. But I don't know if you can compare Ruth Snyder to Ted Bundy. I mean, you know what I mean, I just don't think there's any comparison.
No, And the apparently the defense you write was very simple for her husband was that he was dominated by a serpent like person with extraordinary powers and he was helpless.
Yeah, her lover, Yeah good, Yeah, Yeah, I mean it's laughable the way that it was described in the Pressed. You know, she was that hence the name of the story, the original femme fatale. I mean, that's I suppose that's a valid point. You know, she she, you know, roped in this poor innocent young man into this horrible plot. You know.
Now, there's a part of the story that I mentioned when I spoke to you earlier that our audience has heard about and this is this famous photo of an electric chair, someone being executed in an electric chair and secretly a photo being taken. Tell us about that.
Yes, well, I mean, you weren't supposed to take photos in the execution chamber of a photojournalist did get in there, and he strapped a camera to his to his leg, to his calf, I believe, and I guess obviously he had to tug up his trouser cuff a bit so that the camera would be there, and so he snapped
the photo right at the time of execution. But it was it was it was a bit shaky, and so as a result, I mean, he had this million dollar photo and they had to kind of work on it and touch it up, and it almost looks like a painting. But yeah, that's the actual photo that was taken at the moment of execution and the moment that people, you know, celebrated.
But because of all the hot water he was in taking this photo when he should not have, it seems like he left the country for a while just to kind of wait for things to cool down.
He wrote. In nineteen thirty six, James Kaine, a reporter who had covered the story, wrote a serialized story for a magazine which led to a novel, which you say led to inevitably the film production of Double Indemnity.
Yeah, yeah, that was It was the story first and then the novel and then Yeah, Raymond Chandler and Billy Wilder, those names should be familiar to people who are film books. They adapted it into a screenplay with Barbara Stanwick. Fred McMurray, I love best film. I totally love that film. Of course, it was definitely more fictionalized and the killing is different.
And in this case, in the film version, obviously we have the insurance man who becomes embroiled in this plot to kill the husband, so it's quite different from the actual Ruth Snyder.
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Case let's use this opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now we have time to talk about one more incredible story in this incredible collection, and this is Innocence taken Mike Brown. And the setting is in Bridgewater, Nova Scotia, Canada, population eighty eight hundred, a sixty minute drive from the province's capital, which is Halifax. You say, where murder was exceedingly rare. And the author, Mike Brown, worked at a coffee shop and a convenience store called the Candy Center.
And one of the customers there was a person named Joseph John Laurendaal, a talented musician. So you take us to Halloween nineteen ninety two, or in this story, Halloween nineteen ninety two, where John was stabbed in his car at a poorly lit trailer park. What happens to John after that?
Well, this was this is one of the things that shook up the whole town, is a fact that there was this this murder. And you know, the author, Mike sets this up is that's the only murder that he can actually remember happening, and I'm trying to think of what it was happened to this actual guy, but it was a manslaughter case. Apparently this guy was supposedly inex car smoking a joint and John made a supposed homosexual
advance and he was murdered because of that. And there was a connection with the fire department when the author who had actually was a member of the junior fire department and he knew several of these people who were also involved in that. So that's how he knew Charles, Charles Wicker, who was the killer of the gentleman of John. And so the details just were something that, you know, it was just one of these things that everybody just talked about and they just it was I guess they're
one big killing that reverberated in the town. But that was quickly replaced in two thousand and eight when Carrissa Boudreaux disappeared, a twelve year old girl, which is the subject of this story Innocence Taken, where it turns out because people thought it was a kidnapping or maybe somehow she ran away from home because there was a lot of things going on in the household. She was upset,
she was frustrated. You know, there was you know, a lot of things going on with her mother, with the husband or and the partner in and out different households, living with this, with her mother here, living with the father, living with the stepfather. So I mean she was kind of a textbook case of someone of a little girl who might run away from home. But that's not quite what happened, because eventually her body is discovered, and it's very surprising who is the person who killed her.
You're read about January twenty seven, two thousand and eight, and Carissa is a typical days in her room playing video games. And you say that at that time she felt very very isolated with this situation with her mother and her boyfriend and being away from her father, and so she felt isolated, and you right that her mother felt irritated by Chris's behavior and suggested a car ride
for a private conversation around four pm. She dressed in yes and deans and just a T shirt and a black hoodie and a winter vest and crocs for shoes, which will not be appropriate for that kind of weather. But they were going for a ride, and so tell us what Penny says when she reports her daughter missing. What does she tell police happened?
Well, she is, they're at a supermarket parking lot, and so she supposedly left her daughter in the car. Her daughter was quite angry apparently, and then she comes back fifteen minutes later and there's Chris is not in the car, so supposedly, you know, her mother saying she's searching the parking lot, driving all over the neighborhood, looking around for hours, and then she finally calls the police. So, I mean, you know, it clearly seems like, you know, it's a
kid who's just run off. Mind you, as you mentioned, her attire was certainly not suitable for winter in Nova Scotia, so you have to wonder, well, she couldn't have gone very far. This whole thing just snowballed and snowballed. The whole town is starting to panic. You know what happened to this little girl?
This?
You know something people are searching, everybody's out looking. Nothing was actually thought that there's anything suspicious that you know, perhaps a family member was involved. That's not even something that anyone considered at that time.
Yes, when you talk about Penny doing these emotional press conferences, crying and asking for her daughter to return, and in fact, there was two press conferences and she made these emotional pleas.
Yeah. Yeah, I think we've probably seen that in cases before where where a parent was involved in the killing of a child, of their own child. But yeah, exactly so, I mean, you know it was it was just everybody was on the father, and you know, the father did not have anything to do with this, so let's clarify that. But yeah, so, I mean it was quite a convincing performance for the cameras.
You say too that the police are again not helped by the public with these several unconfirmed sightings, and so there was no reason to doubt Penny's account. There was, you right, though, online speculation at that time. But the LA have read le Haye River was searched by divers from the RC and PISO. There was helicopters, there was in an extensive search for this young girl.
Yeah. Yeah, it's it's strange that, I mean, they did not find anything. But then it was again it's sort of an accidental thing where one I think it was a truck driver or somebody who was driving on this highway saw something at the side of the road. It was a pink croc you know, the shoe. And then some time later again something totally random, with his family
passing through town. They stopped there was a little boy he wanted to, you know, have a little leave at the side of the road, and that's when he saw what appeared to be a body down in like a ravine or whatever it was. And that's when they finally
discovered that it was Penny. I'm sorry, Chrisa. It was all very cleverly staged as well, because it looked, for all intents and purposes, like she'd been a victim of a sexual assault, you know, with a clotheser all, you know, with pants down, braw you know, a skew or whatever. So I mean it looked like definitely that's what would have happened, and you know, that would be the first
thing people would assume. Anyways, you know, a young girl's missing, that's generally sadly their fate in many cases, very very cleverly staged, so once again you would not suspect it was like, you know, her own mother.
It's interesting too that there are red marks consistent with ligature marks at her neck and growing specifically, and they police determined that somebody had placed the body this was not the crime scene, so that they placed the body at the scene shortly after death, and a lot of evidence was held back by police obviously, of course, but when Penny and Vernon were notified about the discovery, they react as strangely. Police said, yeah, it.
Was just not really any emotion. Vernon was Penny's current boyfriend with whom she was living and this again created problems in the household with Carrisa because she just didn't like having Vernon living with them, you know, she just didn't want them there. It's not that he did anything, but in Vernon's case, you know, he didn't actually he did not actually have any involvement with what happened at Carrisa.
But but it seems that he suspected his girlfriend was involved and he was concerned, I suppose, really watching his own back, not wanting to say too much because he didn't want to be implicated in this.
It's very interesting that police are suspicious, so they put the couple under surveillance.
Yeah, they planned the whole Little mister big operation is known in Canadian law enforcement. I'm not actually sure. I imagine it must be elsewhere as well. But how it was set up was this is how they actually got them. For people who don't know what a mister Big operation is. They all law enforcements sort of set up this, especially in a cold case when they don't have anything and they need to try to prompt some kind of thing to happen, they set it up, whereas they kind of
suck you in. For instance, in this case, we've got Penny and Vernon. They're kind of persona non grata. They've actually left town because it was just so unpleasant. Already. Vernon had been in jail for something or other I can't quite recall, but he meets someone in jail who befriends him, and they keep running into these the same guy.
Apparently there's supposedly money to be made. They get more involved with this guy, and he's going to introduce you to this one and then this one and eventually the mister big person who's running the show. So they get you to do little tasks, small ones at first, they get bigger and bigger and bigger, generally involving something illegal, but also to prove that you know you're you're going to be you know, into this and you're not going to you know, run off her or perhaps rat on them.
They want you to disclose something, something about yourself, something that in a way they can hold back as you know, as a guarantee. And that's how it ends up being where Penny tells them exactly what happened, that she killed her daughter, Carissa, and she describes in detail exactly what she did, and that's when the noose comes down.
Yes, it's interesting she says that her daughter said, as she strangled her, mommy don't.
Yeah. That really that was something that upset everybody, even the judge, even the judge in the trial was just so sickened by that. I mean, it's just almost mind boggling that she kept going to that level that she did to totally kill her daughter, with her daughter pleading with her, but I don't know. She definitely wanted rid of her.
And that was that as a result of this extraordinary mister Big operation, which now I believe is outlawed in Canada. But she was arrested in June fourteenth and sentenced in two thousand and nine. Again, the judge was disgusted, but he gave her twenty years to parole eligibility life sentence
being the twenty five years to life. But shockingly, I'm doing some math here, the parole board is got this woman beginning to have day passes, and maybe you could I don't know if you could tell us about day passes, but they have day passes in advance of a potential first parole hearing, and so since twenty eighteen, she's had day passes outside of that prison.
Yeah. Well, actually, you know, they gave her a lesser sentence for the reason that they felt that so much pain had already been caused and they just wanted to put paid to it. So hence that opened the door for this whole parole thing. So yeah, she was being granted these day passes to do like personal things. So there were like supposed visits for church services and things along those those things, and each she would get more
and more and more of these passes. And of course, obviously nobody is happy about this, and there was protests lodged about it, but you know, there are some of these things are just she's just getting more and more of these, even escorted visits to friends as I get again, like the church, personal development activities, even so I don't know. It almost seems like maybe they should have held out for a stricter sentence, or.
Are you going to do your crimes come to Canada. I want to thank you very much, Mitzi so Retto for coming on and talking about your latest collection, Women Who Murder. For those that might want to take another look or a further look, I should say, could you tell us about your website and any social media you do?
Sure? Well, I have my main website, which is Mitzisoretto dot com, and I'm on pretty much every social media site there is, from the former Twitter to everything you know, blue Sky, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok. So I have all my social media links on my website and all my books the books up there as well. And it's got some stores that you can find it if you want to just click on those and basically that's it. So, you know, I hope everyone will find the book to be a
good book to read. I hope so we've all felt that it is. We've worked very hard.
So absolutely, thank you so much for this interview, Mitzi Soretto Women Who Murder. Thank you so much for this interview, and you have a great evening and good night,