WATCH ME DIE-Dr. Bill Kimberlin

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death row. Then he watches them die. You will see how these inmates think as Kimberland not only spends time interviewing them, but also eats meals with them and, in some cases if the last person to speak to them before they are executed. You'll also be walked through the full execution process, starting from when the inmate is placed on suicide watch and going until they are pronounced dead

on the execution table. You will see the flaws in the system and be able to judge for yourself if the death penalty as it is utilized today is really worth pursuing. This book promises to take you into the depths of death Row and into the minds of the killers like no one else has ever been able to do before. You will see their artwork, their writings, and their mindset as they prepare for their final days on

this planet. The book that we're featuring this evening is Watch Me Die with my guest author and professor, doctor Bill Kimberland. Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview, doctor Bill Kimberland.

Tell us why, but give us your background before that that prepared you to even be in a position that you made the query on death row. So tell us how your background that puts you in a position to ask the question to want to study death row.

at the same time as being a probation officer. But what I always planned on doing was becoming a college professor, and I always knew that it would take years to get to that level because of the degrees that you'd normally have to obtain, which would be at the doctorate level. So when I was doing the counseling and the probation, I was constantly working on my degrees, and I eventually

obtained my doctorate in clinical psychology. So it's all of the human sciences social sciences background, which is what I've always been interested in, and I've always interacted with well, and mostly of those that are at risk. The probationers are all fellon convicted of felons, and then my drug and alcohol counseling days with those individuals, and then moving into the clinical psychology more into the study of the mind.

And one thing I always told myself was I would never be the type of professor that would teach just book smarts only, meaning I wanted to be able to learn as much as I could first hand. And some of the biggest debated issues in a lot of the social classes are things such as the legalization of drugs here in America, our gun laws, whether or not we need to relax them, abortion rights, and then of course

capital punishment. And I've been fortunate enough to travel to a number of different countries to see what their drug laws are like, and growing up around guns and things of that nature, I knew enough about those areas. But when it came to capital punishment, everything that I had read literature wise pointed me in the direction to find out that none of the authors had ever really visited

death Row, let alone witnessed an execution. So I thought this is a good starting point to make sure that I didn't fall in that trap of only teaching what

I've read. So then I dove into death Row head first, I guess, to see what I could learn, and then doing so, I just happened to call the Attorney General's office at the time, and I asked them to put me on a list or in the lottery to witness an execution, because I, like everyone else, had no idea how this process worked, and they hung up on me, and I thought, well, that was kind of rude. So I called back and I said, you know, I'm hoping that we just got disconnected, but I'm really serious about

getting in to see an execution. I teach on this stuff and I need to know more about it. And the young lady on the other end said, you know, nobody can just witness an execution. The governor of Ohio, I'd never witnessed one, the Attorney General's never witnessed one. The Ohio Revised Code set forth the procedures in which a person can witness an execution, and only three people on each side can ever witness an execution out of

thirty million people in Ohio. So she said, But since I've never been asked this question before, I'm going to send you the law and the list of the people that are scheduled to be executed in the state of Ohio over the next year or two. See if you can find any loopholes and have at it. So I got the list, I got the law. I got together with some attorney friends of mine that i'd always worked with,

one who's a judge now, and found some loopholes. Decided to contact a couple of the inmates, and that's how I became involved in death row. And it is just mushroomed from there.

this execution. How then did you go ahead? And you talk about Roger Barnett and his connection again, if you had a connection to an inmate, tell us some of that criteria. Under those conditions you could get to witness an execution.

So I had that contact number. And I was also fortunate enough to know that one of the inmates that was listed on the sheet that was given to me given the dates of the executions, he happened to be related to one Chris Newton by marriage and he said that he could vouch for me if need be. So I decided to write Chris Newton explaining who I was and friends of Roger and he had. He decided to

write back. Chris was a very unique character when it comes to somebody psychologically studying them, and one of the first letters I got back was I would love for you to come down and talk to me face to face and in fact tell Roger I no longer want to kill him, because they always wanted to kill Roger, but I no longer want to kill him. So if he wants to come down and visit me, he can too before my execution. So I went down first, met

with him a couple of times, took Roger down. Next thing, you know, Chris Newton actually asked me to be there for his execution.

our states constitutions. So in essence, you could be put to death by the federal government if you're convicted of a capital murder offense in a state that does not have the death penalty, and it happens on federal property.

know a whole lot. So I was really going into it blind, and once I got onto death Row, I was assuming, based on some of the TV shows that I had seen over the years, that these guys would be handcuffed and shackled, they'd be locked down in their cells twenty three hours a day, they'd pump sunlight into them, you know, everything like that. Lo and behold, I get to death Row, which is now housed in Chillicothe, Ohio.

Prior to that, when I first started, we had two different locations, one in Mansfield, Ohio and one in Youngstown, Ohio. So when I started, I was actually going to two different death rows. We have since combined them put them all in Chilicothe, Ohio. But in order for them to be executed, they're transferred about thirty six hours before their execution down to Lucasville, which is on the border of Ohio and Kentucky, and that's where the death house sits.

But going back to the actual death row, I was completely and utterly shocked to see how much freedom our death row inmates here in Ohio get and the amenities that they have access to. So every single person that I've ever dealt with on Ohio's death row actually would prefer to be on death row than in general population because they have so much more freedom. They're out of their cells most of the day, their wrec time inside and out. They have access they have TVs in their cells.

They have access to handheld video games MP three players so they can select music. They have access to computers. They have their own typewriters. They can order food boxes of whatever kind of food that they desire. They can order different tennisues, whether they want Nikes or Converts or Adidas. They're allowed three fully nude pictures sent to them every single day, as long as there are no pictures depicting penetration. And the art they have tons of art supplies that

they can order. So these inmates, the worst of the worst, are treated very very well. That doesn't even include the medical care that they get because Ohio will literally go to extraordinary measures to keep them alive in order to execute them. So there's one of my inmates who's been on death row whose medical bills have exceeded over a million dollars, and they have done this in order to

keep him alive so they can executehim. So when I get to death Row, I was thinking that these guys would be in a cage, locked up, and then I would talk through them through a telephone or through glass. But instead, when I started in Mansfield, it was just a room that we were in with no no handcuffs on or anything. And now in chili coffee, no handcuffs, no shackles. Depending on when the visitations taking place or the interview, we can walk up and down death Row

free to ourselves and discuss anything we want. We can eat out of the vending machines unless it's towards the end of their sentence. So the week before then they would allow us to order food to be delivered to the prison. So one of the last guys I witnessed, I think we ordered eight dollars worth of Italian food and they actually delivered it to us right there to death row. So I was, I was taken aback. I guess thats how easy our death row inmates have it.

It's very quiet there, it's very clean. Everybody gets along. I've never seen any fights, no yelling or anything like that. So I guess I was. I was just completely caught off guard on that.

about the worst of the worst. For example, the very first, I believe, very first person that you spoke to was Chris Newton. So tell us what Chris Newton was noted for and the peculiar behavior that he exhibited.

the state as a method of suicide. Because one thing about the death row inmates, they can kill anybody but themselves, which is a whole different topic. So Chris decided that he was going to be put in protective custody. He was going to lie to the guards telling him that the gangs were after him. In the entire time he

was plotting what he was going to do. So the guards agreed to put him in protective custody, and they were walking him back there and he was looking in the different cells to see who was around, and he spotted one individual. He had no idea who he was, but he looked weak, and he told the guard that guy and I we get along. You can sell me with him, and the guards were like fine, So they decided to bunk him in this other inmate together, and Chris knew that that's the person he was going to kill.

He just needed something to spark it. So he told that inmate. The next night, listen, you and I after lights out, we're going to have sex. And the guy said, no, that's that's not anything that I'm interested in. And Chris

told me that's the spark that he needed. So when the lights went out, he decided to beat and strangle this guy to death, and in doing so he got so sexually aroused and turned on that he started rubbing the blood all over him and drinking it, and then proceeded to masturbate all over him, and then when he was finished, he sat down and ate a pair until the guards arrived the next morning, because nobody heard anything because they were a protective custody and the doors are

kind of solid, and I have the crime scene photos of Christine and they're laughing, covered completely naked in blood, and it was just it was bizarre to listen to him tell me the story. And then he went on to tell the court that that murder he did was to get him the death penalty, and that if the court would not give him the death penalty, he was going to continue to murder until they did so the blood would be on their hands, not his, and that's how he ended up getting the death penalty.

and again no guards or anything were around us. The door opens after about being in there, maybe a half hour or forty five minutes, and Chris was he had tobacco in his mouth and we were talking, and the case manager or the guard at the time, looks at Newton and says, Newton, I should write you up for that. You know, you're not about to be chewing in here.

And Chris stopped, with the coldest eyes of a stare that I've ever seen, looked directly at him and told him that, yeah, I know, and I've always wanted to kill you too. And the only reason I haven't killed you is because I want to die on my date of execution. But so help me God, I will kill you right now if you don't get out of this room. And it must have stunned the guard enough because he looked right back.

our interview. But Chris was very, very bizarre in nature because of the fact that he just did not have any regard for human life at all, no remorse, would kill again, wanted to kill and rape all the way to his execution date because he was naming people that

he wished he would have killed. And in fact, his execution took two hours from start to finish, and he actually had to get up off the table when they were trying to put the ivs in at one time to go use the restroom, and they allowed him to do that, and then he came back and hopped back on.

Europe or in Canada, places like that. That do not believe in the death penalty. And these medications, all of the medications that are used to put to death these inmates are supposed to be utilized to save lives in surgeries and things of that nature. So when the drug manufacturers get wind of an execution that has taken place with their drugs, then they no longer will supply that drug.

So of the executions that I've witnessed in Ohio, the multiple executions, even though they've all been lethal injections, all have been different lethal injections. The very first one was the three drug cocktail, which was the sodium pentethal, the pancureum bromide, and the potassium chloride. That was the very first one. Then they stopped producing the sodium pentathal for that purpose, and then they went to a two drug cocktail.

And now we're down to a wonder drug cocktail. And I've seen them all but over the last two years. In twenty fourteen and now I'm sorry, twenty fifteen and now twenty sixteen, the state of Ohio has put in a moratorium. They've stopped all executions for those two years in order to try to figure out the complexity of this drug issue, or do we need to bring back a different method of executions. And that's where we're at

right now. So there were no executions in twenty fifteen and there'll be none in twenty sixteen solely because of the lethal injection the drugs that are used, and that the laws in the state of Ohio will not allow a compounding drug company or pharmacy to make the drugs if they're manufactured elsewhere already. So it's one of those weird laws that Ohio has on the books that prevents

us from making the drugs. Even though here in Sindeski, Ohio, we have a compounding pharmacy that is more than willing to make the drugs and donate them because I have spoken to them. The law will not allow that since those drugs are already manufactured elsewhere.

and things like that. So oftentimes they can't find the veins because they're not really educated enough in that area to do it. Not to mention, as I've watched them very closely, a lot of them are shaking quite a bit because I think at that point they realize that they're trying to insert a needle that's going to be taking the life of a human being, and I think that finally gets to them psychologically. So sometimes they missed

the veins. There's actually an inmate that in Ohio's prison right now that I dealt with in the past that a good friend of mine, Doug shere, who's head of the Vindication Project. He and I are working closely together on this inmate because he's the only one to ever survive an execution in modern history, and the reason being

it took over two hours. They stuck him eighteen different times, eighteen different places, started to try to push the drugs through, and that the drugs never entered the mains, so the governor had to call because there is a phone inside the execution chamber that rang. After two hours, they halted

the execution. They were assuming the attorneys anyways that they would not be allowed to execute him again because it would fall under double jeopardy, And just about a month and a half ago, the Supreme Court ruled that since the drugs never really entered the veins, then the execution process didn't start. So he's been put back on the

list to be executed. And I, from the psychological standpoint, am dealing with him because I've never talked to anybody that has gone through the entire step before of saying your final goodbyes, having your last meal, making your last statement, giving everything away, your last will and testament, surviving it and didn't have to do it all over again. So I'm going at it from that standpoint, from look looking at the psychological aspect, and the only two people that

he will deal with are Doug and myself. So I'm fortunate enough to have that ability to still go down on death row and deal with the individuals like that. But there are some states just last month, like the state of Virginia, they had the governor had to sign a bill to either bring back the electric chair or try to find a different method of execution because of

the way the lethal injections have been going. And there are a few other states that want to join, like Utah and bring back the firing squad as well, because it seems to be more humane way to do it and it's a lot less political when it comes to the manufacturing of the drugs.

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true murder. Now, when we last left off, I wanted to ask this question, other than being a psychologist, what do you think it is that you bring to these inmates. What is the reason why these inmates on death row? Why would they speak to you and why were they so candid with you? What is it about you and your position and these inmates that makes it that they want to confide in you.

Basis Bill. I talk to them and with them, not at them or above them. I'll joke with them, I'll laugh with them. I of course utilize a lot of the skills I learned in the field of psychology. With the least amount of questions I ask them, the more

they'll tell me. So I don't come at them in an invasive way, and I treat them as a person, and I think that's what they like about me the most, just it's another human to human contact that isn't an authority figure, that isn't going to look down upon them or judge them the entire time that I'm interviewing them. And I don't do it in a clinical setting. I

do it in their setting. So when I'm on death row, I'm in their house, not in my office, and I think that makes them a little bit more relaxed as well. So that's what got them to open up in the beginning. Now it has mushroomed so much because that my name gets passed along on not just Ohio's death row now but all over and now more and more of them reach out to me because they feel that I'm a

stand up guy. I never lie to them whatever they ask me, because I already know they know the answers to They know where I live, they know where my wife teaches, they know where my daughter lives, my son where he goes to school. They know all of this typically before they even reach out to me. So when they ask me those questions, really they're trying to see if I'm going to stumble and lie to them, and

of course I would never do that. So when they see that I'm very upfront and honest with them, then they return that favor to me.

more about your correspondence. What was it contained? What do you have to say, Anthony soul.

I'll be in touch. And that's all it said. So I found that to be, you know, quite interesting, especially since you know he is, you know, a high profile serial killer at least here in Ohio. And it wasn't long after that that I that I received another letter from him, and it stated that I did check out, and it included the forms for me to fill out to come visit him, and he said come down anytime and we'll talk. So I went down a number of times.

The thing with Anthony, though, is he's a very controlling individual, and when I received a letter, because of the position that I am in both as psychologist and then working for the courts before and still a relationship with the courts now, of course, the FBI was kind of interested in seeing if he was going to admit to any other victims out there instead of just the eleven, because they found all eleven victims that he kept in his home,

in his backyard and everything. But I was under the impression, as many others, that there are probably more victims out there. But Anthony was very new to death row and is still new to death row, so there's no incentive for him to talk about other victims. But he's a very intelligent individual. Was in the United States Marine Corps, was married, had a child. The wife after he had divorced her,

was killed in a factory accident. He would not give me his daughter's name, but told me a lot about them, and we talked for hours and hours each time. But he always wanted to be in control. He wanted me to write a book specifically about him, not anybody else on death Row. He wanted me to only have his artwork, not any other inmates artwork, and he wanted me to pay for certain things, and of course I wouldn't agree

to any of those terms. So we didn't really part well when it was all said and done, because I didn't give him the glory that he wanted. Because the serial killers that I deal with are the mass murders. Their biggest fears to be forgotten. And that's Anthony Sowell's biggest fear. He does not want to be forgotten. He wants to be known as the most notorious serial killer

in the state of Ohio. And for some reason, Ohio has a lot of high profile killers because this is you know, our state is where Charles Manson was born, and Jeffrey Dahmer lived and was born, and then of course Anthony Sowell and that. So he just wants to be known to every but he is the most notorious serial killer, and I would not glorify him in the way that he won it. So I interviewed him countless times. Then I ended up cutting times with him because I was getting nowhere with him.

he was given the death penalty. But the only one that I've ever had that had such a huge following. People liked James philology, and in fact, after his execution they had a funeral and awake in his hometown and there was something like two hundred people that actually attended it. I was invited to go, but when one of my inmates are executed and that that file is closed and I'm done with that individual, so I didn't attend it. But he would right correspond with me on a daily basis.

Was very concerned about my well being every time I came to death Row. Wanted to know if I needed anything on the outside, and this was all the way up to his executions, so he was probably the only one although he was never remorseful, He never admitted to being remorseful, acted remorseful. He's the only one of all of my inmates that he could literally be sitting right next to you and be one of your best friends and you would never realize that he did the things

that he did. Very very very charismatic individual. So I spent a lot of time with James before he was finally executed.

order to not lose them. And he had shot and killed his mother, shot her fifteen times, threw over the bridge, was given a life sentence in Tennessee, turned around, killed another inmates over some money that was owed, again given

another life sentence, and then his prison psychologist. He did not like his prison psychologists, and that individual talked down to him, treated him very disrespectful, and he decided that he was just going to kill him and then that way there they'd have to give him the death penalty. So he waited till his next appointment, and he had a shank and he stabbed him sixty four times because he said that he figured if he put enough holes

in him, they couldn't plug them all. So so Stephen and he was actually just in the news last year again because of having a cell phone in on death row and he had taken pictures and had them downloaded to a dating website. And there's Stephen in a gated community on a dating website and he's on death row while waiting his execution. So they're very brilliant behind bars.

so I found that as a challenge. I went down there to death Row and the guards very rarely ever talked to me, but when they found out I was talking to Sap, they were stunned because he not only does he not talk to anybody, but he was suspected at the time of killing seventy four victims. And they asked me, am I going to be able to find out because the FEDS would be very interested, And at the time I said, I have no idea. I've never met the guy. I don't know if we're going to

talk about the weather or what. So I interviewed him a few times and then finally got to the point where I said, listen, you know, I hear you're good for seventy four murders. He looked at me right in the eye. She said, now, absolutely not. He said, anybody that ever kills anybody, they never forget killing a person. He said, anybody ever tells you that they can't remember certain details or certain things, then they're lying. He said, I've killed fifty people, not a single one more, and

I know we're all fifty of Marat. They have some of the bodies. I know where the rest of the marat. And he would just go on about how he would rape and torture these victims before he killed them. His thinking was if you are ten years older, ten years old or older, than you're fair game for sex as long as you appeared to be ten years old or older, because in his warped mind, he didn't want to rape a child. He had a ten year old to him, wasn't a child. His first brush with the law was

when he was a young child. He lit his biological mom on fire tried to kill her. So that set that whole dynamic in motion. And in fact, I have three maps to three different bodies, one in Ohio, two in Florida that Doug share and I are also going to collaborate on to locate those bodies because working with the FBI, and they agree that they believe that the maps are really good. But like the drug thing, when

it comes to lethal injection. There's also politics involved in law enforcements, so unfortunately the bodies are of prostitutes and are of no significant value, I'm assuming to the federal government. So unfortunately, there are families out there that are missing loved ones, and we're hoping to locate those and have some closure for some families. And in Williams's case, he will give me the rest of them after we locate these, because he's upset that we haven't dug these bodies up already.

He's coming to the end of his time on death row, and I think he's going to start getting more and more desperate to see what he can do to extend his stay on death row instead of being executed. But as far as evil, I've never in my life interviewed anybody more evil than him. To see it in his eyes how much he loves to rape and kill. And in fact, he has a couple daughters that he has

not seen since he's been on death row. And I asked him one time we were sitting there eating and I said, well, what would you say to your daughters if I brought them here? You say, you have no compassion, no feelings, nothing, You don't know what love really is. You have two wonderful daughters. What would you say to them if I brought them here? And he thought for a few minutes, looked me dead in me, he said,

I wouldn't say anything to him. I'd kill them. If they were sitting here right now, I would kill them. One of my biggest regrets is I didn't kill them before I came to Death Row. And it's just, you know, the looking his eyes, you know the tone of his voice, how calm, cool and collective he is. It's just it's like he looks right through you. So, yeah, that's by far the most evil person I've ever interviewed him.

think us as abnormal. He admitted that the longest he had ever went was five days, where he went back and had sex with the body five days later. He would always take something from them. It might be a nipple, it might be a part of an ear, a finger, it could be jewelry, it could be anything like that, but he always kept something, and his mo was he believes, at least this is how he classifies himself as a cleaner. He would always clean up afterwards to try to not

leave a crime scene. He would dispose of the bodies, usually around railroad tracks or anywhere that there was a significant dump or landfill or anything close by, so when the decomposition of the body started, that smell would not stand out from any of the other smells. So he was very cold, very calculated, and even admitted that he was a very nice looking guy, very trustworthy, and lived

a double life. Otherwise, he said, how could I kill and rape so much because people, if they're afraid of me, they'd go the other way. He had a way of just attracting people, albeit the majority of them prostitutes. He said, nobody ever really feared him. The thing is, he said, I never set out to kill everybody either. Some of

them I would let go. But as soon as they started praying to God or telling me that I can't kill them because they have children at home, or don't kill them because of this or that, then he said they're dead automatically, he said, because that's one thing you never tell him is no. He does not appreciate anybody telling him no to anything. So that's why I said that he was just one of the most evil men ever.

hit it off perfectly fine. And in fact, William sapp had told me that Newton was the only person on death Row that he got along with. And oddly enough, there's an inmate in San Quentin that's also a pretty nasty individual, Philip Jablonski. Those two know each other and had corresponded to each other through attorneys in mail, so for some reason they're able to tracked one another when

they when they have that type of behavior. And and and those two again, they they they set themselves out from the rest of them just from their actions and their behavior alone. They are not that there's any normal on on death Row, but those two are far from being like most inmates that you would ever come across.

as the head of the Aryan Brotherhood. So his belief was if long, if you were not a wasp, a white Anglo Saxon Protestant, then you had no business living. And that's the belief that he subscribed to. So he went to Cleveland State University one time and just killed five people, wounded other ones, whether they were Jewish or black or whatever. That's what he was aiming for minorities, because if you were Jewish, you were dead. If you were Black, you were dead, if you were gay, you

were dead. That was his thinking. They put him on death row and he was actually on death row for twenty eight years before his execution took place, so he was one of the longest ones to stay on death row. And this transformation that Frank Spizac went through to become France's Anne because then he discovered that he was a man trapped in a woman's body, so he changed his

name to France's Anne. He would have sex with other inmates on death row on a regular basis because that was it wasn't supposed to be allowed, but it was looked the other way, so he went from hating homosexuals to being one. He ended up he went from hating African Americans and killing them to having an African American pastor, and then also wanting to become a woman himself. So

the dynamics of Spizac. I would liked to have talked to him more, but he reached out to me towards the end of his time and asked me to be there for his execution, and I was the last person to ever speak to him before they took him over

to the death chamber and proceeded with the execution. But he was different from starting out wanting to kill everybody that wasn't a white Anglo Saxon Protestant to the end of his life where he wanted to become a female and had an African American pastor there to deliver spiritual rights to him. At first, I thought Frank was going to be very remorseful because of speaking to him in the death cell. He seemed like a deer in headlights. He couldn't believe that the day was here. Wanted people

to know that he wasn't that monster anymore. Gave me his personal effects that were in the death cell, so I was thinking that maybe, just maybe there was a

sense of remorse there. But then when they strapped him to the table and when you're allowed to make your last and final statement, he gave it in German, which it just infuriated the three witnesses on the victim's side because that was like rubbing salt into the wounds, because he only ever tried to speak German before when he was killing everybody, wanted to be the next Dadolf Hitler

and everything else. Fast forward twenty eight years later and he's on his deathbed there and the last statement he gives is in German, so that tells me he wasn't remorseful.

him before he would leave. So very deranged in that sense, was very much an addict smoke crack on a regular basis. He was on death row for eighteen years before he was executed. Sixteen of those eighteen years he smoked crack still on death row on a regular basis, because there's a lot of drugs, a lot of contraband that smuggled in to death row, mostly through the guards, whether it's alcohol or drugs or pornography or anything like that. But what you need to get in there is the money.

And Fred's mother was his main supplier for money. So what she would do is she would take usually one hundred dollars bill every time she would come to visit him, and she would put it in a condom and put it up inside of her vagina. And the reason that she would use the economistead of anything else is so it couldn't be detected if they decided to put them

through a machine to search them. So when she would get in to see Fred, and she was allowed to buy certain things out of the vending machine for them, and she would buy him bag of chips in a pop. She would open up the chips. First, she would ask to go to the restroom and they would allow her to.

She would go into the restroom, she would take the condom out of her vagina with the hundred dollars bill in there, and she would come out and then she would place that in the bag of chips when nobody was looking, and then give the bag of chips to Fred, and then Fred would eat the chips. He would swallow

that condom that just came out of his mother. And then later on in the evening, he would when he would go to the restroom, go to the bathroom, he would take that out of his stool, out of his feces, clean it off, take the crisp one hundred dollars bill out of there, and then that's what he would give to the guards in exchange for the crack that he would smoke.

And since I'm with one of the one of the witnesses on the defendant side, I'm placed in a room with the defendant's attorneys and his clergy, and then in another debriefing room are the three witnesses for the victim side. We never come in contact with one another, so we're in there the entire time until it's time to walk

across the yard the prison yard. They keep the prison on lockdown during an execution, but a lot of the prisoners that have cells on the perimeter of the wall of the yard anyways, can see right over to the deathhouse, which sits almost like in the middle. And as I'm being escorted over there, they're just yelling as loud as they can. I'm not even sure what they're yelling. It's almost like when you see those movies with the gladiators and that, and it's in like a colossium almost, and

you just everything is so surreal. The hearse is sitting there off to the side waiting for this to take place, and all of this noise is going on throughout the yard, which they're yelling through their prison windows and their cell box. And then your escort right into the death house. If I go to the death cell, which is where I talk to the individual for the last time, it's a very tiny like cage almost. There's a bed, a toilet, a little sink, and a writing desk and that's it.

It's completely open that there's no curtains, there's no anything, and there are three guards that sit there right in front of them twenty four to seven for every single minute that they're there for the last thirty six hours, and every single thing that they do is recorded, whether it's they brush their teeth, they get up to make the bed, they whatever they reques, every single thing is recorded. So when I go over there, even whatever we're saying

back and forth is dictated down. That's the death cell. You go right around the corner from that, and it's the execution chambers right there where the witnesses are seated. There are three seats, a little partition that doesn't even go all the way up to the ceiling, and then three seats on the other side, and then you're sitting behind this glass window. The innatives made to walk in and they will strap him down to the table and then they will proceed to put the ivs in him

and then allow him to make his final statement. And you will never see the executioner. They clear the execution room out. Only the warden and one other person stands in there. When the warden buttons his top coat button on his suit, that's the signal to the executioner to start the drugs, which is behind a brick wall that you never see, but you can see the drugs if

you're looking anyways. You can see the drugs flowing right down the tubes into the ivy and into the into the in melane on the table, so you can hear a pin drop there. There's n a of the executions I've been there, even the one that took over two hours, it was there was no noise other than the right I I the I'm writing the entire time on a tablet and the sound of my pen is almost deafening because it's so quiet and there and y you just I it's just a it's hard to explain the feeling

itself because that it's it's different every time. It's not something that you could ever get used to when you're watching the life of a human being taken in right in front of you, especially if somebody you just got done talking to, you know, minutes before. It's not like there are uh in hospice care or they're terminally o'

or whatever. These individuals were, for all intense purposes, alive and well y ten minutes ago, and then you see them being strapped down and the life being taken from them right in front of you.

and the respect that they have for me. I didn't want to put the artwork in the book to glorify them so much as I wanted to put the artwork in there to let the general public know that they have this ability to be able to use woodworking tools and paints and supplies and things like that on death row, that this death row isn't a dark cave somewhere that you know, these inmates are very well taken care of. So they send me this artwork, and it has over

the years mushroomed into this. I'm looking at my dining room table now and there's artwork laying on it I just received this week. You know, my son has books laying on top of some of them. My poor daughter, thank goodness, she lives in Texas right now, because her bed is literally right now coverage. You can't even see it. There's probably fifteen paintings laying on her bed because I haven't had a chance to classify them and put them away yet, so I have hundreds of paintings and drawings.

Has sent me from everywhere from California's Death Road and Nevada to Florida and especially Ohio, and these inmates they just, I think in my mind anyways, they want their name out there, they want their work displayed, and the overwhelming majority of them will do nature scenes, religious scenes have

some type of religious undertone. And getting to know these inmates as well as I have, they have expressed me and told me that they would love to paint and draw what's really on their mind, what most of us would refer to as the dark art, the skulls a crossbones, they're victims and things like that, but they are afraid to do that because it would send the wrong message out to the public, especially when it comes to time

for their appeals. So what they'll do is they'll paint religious scenes, animals scenes, nature scenes to try to trick people into thinking that they are changing while they're on death row, they were becoming a better person, when in reality they are just still that deceitful, that conniving that they even go so far as to think that way, so that they're careful of what they even draw or paint.

said you really couldn't. So after you've looked at this and analyze this with this incredible book, tell us about some of the things that you saw as the major issues to make a decision one way or another. What were those issues and how did you deal with them and what did you see in regards to those issues.

and it needs to be more transparent. So when I decided to write the book, I had to stress to people, and I still stress to people that my opinion of the death penalty is irrelevant, and I don't try to sway anybody one way or the other, whether they're for or against it. The book, I outline it in a way that people can really make an educated opinion after they read the book, whether they are for the death

penalty or not. And my conclusions after all of these years, what I have learned that I had no idea about was how flawed our system is because there's really no rhyme or reason on how we enact the ultimate form of punishment in the United States, meaning taking the life of another human being. So if we're constantly talking about universal healthcare, we're constantly making sure that we have universal law enforcement across the board. Our judicial system is universal,

our educational system is universal across the board. We try to keep these certain standards all the way across the board. I would think that if we were going to take the life of another human being as a penalty. Then we would be universal across the board on that in an agreement, but in fact we're so far from it. Our states can't agree on the methods to use. They argue on whether it's going to be lethal injection or electrocution.

They can't agree on the number of appeals. They can't agree on what crimes should put a person on death row, and they can't agree on how long they should stay there. I look at California and my inmates out there. You're looking at eight hundred people on death row, and you're more than likely to die in natural causes out there because they don't execute anybody where. Then you look at states like Texas and it seems like they run them through one after the other, and they probably average maybe

one a month here in Ohio. Nothing last year, nothing this year. So there's no rhyme or reason. So I think the system is severely flawed. I think it's broken. I don't know if it's something that could be repaired because everything is so political, there's so many egos involved, and so that's what I set out to show people in the book was how the system really works, and there may be people that sit there and say, you know, that's horrible. There's no way I'd want tover support the

death penalty. And then there's others that will say, you know, who cares. As long as you kill them, that's the ultimate end to it all. Make sure that they die, and however long it takes, they're fine with that. So again, you know, I'm not out there to sway them one way or the other, but I am out there to educate them in the sense that by the time they finished the book, they should at least be able to say with an educated mind anyways that they are either for it or against it.

everything else. And you take these families and they're sold this bill of goods by a prosecutor who thinks that this the person that perpetrated these crimes should be placed on death row and put to death because they're gonna be locked away and they're gonna be housed in twenty three twenty four hours a day, no sunshine until they, you know, are executed. They're not told how well the inmates are going to be treated because the prosecutors themselves

don't know it. They're not they're not telling the families that you have to relive this crime every single time they appeal, and how much stress is placed on those victims' families because of them reliving it, and the fact that the inmates on the inside love to control the victim's families on the outside, so by them constantly appealing and making them relive these crimes, the inmates own the

victim's families until twenty years later. So if a family member of mine was killed, and that individual that prepartary crime is put on death row. There's no closure for me until at least twenty years later, when I have built up all of this anger waiting for the person to die, when in fact the whole time I should have been that person should have been out of my mind. Anyways, So they don't control me and I don't relive it. Whether you lock them up with life without pro and

forget about them or whatever you need to do. But to rehash those crimes at every appeal and to worry constantly about you want to live long enough to watch them be executed, is a horrible way to live out your life for the victim's family, That.

And so what will happen is that not only will they relive it, but they will also have the threat of some of these outlandish excuses actually working in court, so again and reliving. But again you as you mentioned, these these killers would love to taunt the families from their position. You know, they're totally not remorseful, So there is that added aspect. But then they add the aspect of just the incredible cost. The incredible cost is those appeals.

If you think taking care of your if you begrudge the prisoner for all the arts and crafts and the food and Jesu where we have to house these people, well, the appeals with the death penalty process itself increases that cost, doesn't.

They're a whole different, breeded character. That's their bread and butter that's their paycheck. They need that death penalty because they need to defend these guys in order to get paid. And the hypocrisy that is out there is just it's stunning.

So why does the state think that it should be okay to kill me when that that goes against everything that everybody stands for. So they are really against the death penalty. They think that the State of Ohio is in other states now are doing an injustice by killing them because it's just it's murder to them, and that makes the State of Ohio know better than what they are. So that's across the board. That's just about all the inmates,

and it's uh. I was shocked to hear it the first few times, but anymore I expect to hear it because that's that's exactly how they all think about it. Is you putting me to death makes you the state just as guilty of murder as as I am, even though I killed multiple victims and they m a lot.

for Jimmy Hoffa and other things. So Doug and I decided to collaborate together to see what we can do to investigate where the locations are and if in fact they are there, to recruit the necessary individuals to locate these bodies for the purposes of closure to the victims families out there.

book's readily available out there. The last I checked it was in seven different countries so far it had been purchased in right and then my actual email, which is BW Kimbo at b X dot net and I always respond to everybody.