VIOLENT MIND-Dr. Al Carlisle

there after the trial. Doctor Carlyle's assignment was specific determined to the best of his ability, without being biased by any of the reports previously done, whether Ted Bundy had a violent personality. The judge would use this information in deciding whether Bundy should serve time or be released on probation.

In Violent Mind, the nineteen seventy six psychological Evaluation of Ted Bundy, doctor Carlyle takes the reader's step by step through this previously unpublished evaluation process and shows how he concluded that Bundy had the capacity to commit aggravated kidnapping, and perhaps much worse. Violent Mind contains never before seen interviews with Ted Bundy and those who knew him, including a letter Bundy wrote to doctor Carlyle that has been

locked away for more than forty years. The book they were featuring this even is Violent Mind, The nineteen seventy six Psychological Assessment of Ted Bundy, with my guest journalist and author, doctor al Carlyle. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview, Doctor al Carlyle. Thank you, thank you very much. Incredible book, and I'm sure as a result of an incredible interview about, of course, Ted Bundy.

that Ted was a likable person. He was in law school at the University of Utah Law School program, and people liked him, and so he was sent out to our program. I had been working at this day prison since about sixty seven, and at that time I was the psychologist with the ninety day unit, and so it fell upon me to do this evaluation. And at that point that we had a psychiatrist, doctor Van Austin, just a fantastic guy since deceased, but he was really good.

And so he did an evaluation of Ted. And there was a ninety day evaluation program that Donald Hull had done which was very thorough and very good, and he found mixed results. And there was a psychological assessment that was done on him, this by doctor Evan Lewis who said he thought Ted was holding back. There are so many things he thought might be going on, but he

couldn't delineate that because Ted didn't open up. And doctor Van Austin, a psychiatrist, said basically the same thing and so and Ted had taken and some psychological tests and came out looking clean on him, and so there was readly nothing showing up. So I felt my job then was in my psychological evaluation. I wanted to do something

that was different, a little different, an extended part. So I interviewed him for about twenty hours and called a number of people who knew him, old girlfriends and his mother and you know, just a number of people. And some said, yeah, he's a wonderful guy. He couldn't have he couldn't harm anyone. And others say, hey, there's a

different side to this guy. And so when I put all of that together and got a pretty thoroughly evaluate, pretous throw interview from Ted about his childhood, I felt that there was a gradual movement throughout those years, beginning in his childhood, and then things happen in his teenage years and such that I came up at the conclusion that I think Ted is a violent person, and so that was my part.

the corridor of the prison. As you come in the prison, you go through two gates to get in, and so he was just walking down, walking towards me, and he was, even though he's in prison outfit. He was dressed night late, nice league, clean cut. He just looked good and he had a smile in his face. He walked towards me, something similar to if I'm going to buy a car and the salesman walks up to me with a smile on his face and extends his hand and says, Hi,

I'm Ted Bundy. You must be doctor Carlyle. And I was impressed because you generally don't get that approach from a person who's going to be going through a psychological assessment on a violent crime when the outcome could be he's going to be sends to prison. So and sitting down talking to him, he was friendly, He spoke easily, although at times I felt that what he said was rehearsed.

But he was very easy to talk to. And the times I knew him after that, after he came to prison and was a hard number, and we had some more visits, and when he escaped from jail in Colorado and got caught and put in another jail, and he called me and we talked and again just very friendly, just easy to talk to. So yeah, there's very definitely two sides of Ted Bundy. And it was a fascinating, fascinating case.

with my own opinion of what this person's like. So I had the precentered investigation done hull, and I went through the crime, and I skimmed through other parts of it, you know, some things on history, and he had some testimonies and some people and such in there, and I just skimmed through that, and so I got a little bit of an idea of what was seen. I wanted. I wanted to look at ted from a fresh views, so to speak. You know, I had been told that

he see the m MPI Multiphaised Personality Inventory. The m MPI is one of the most popular and common tests used for personality, and I had understood that he had taken that and he came out real clean. So so I like to look at it from a fresh view, with only a hint of what has gone on except the crime. I get in detail, but I want to see the person as I see the person, and not

as what others have seen. Then I compare it after that, go back more in depth and see what others have seen, and see how that compares with what I saw.

near the bottom. Low, nothing, no depression, no anger, and everything looked good. In fact, it looked better than the average person would look. And it just it it didn't fit because here's a guy kid, if he was innocent, if he was innocent, and he is going to this evaluation, and it along with the psychiatric report and the report from the caseworker and such if if if he showed up with some pathology, it would really increase the chances

of being committed to the prison. So he's scoring so low, and it's like it doesn't fit a kid who comes in like this and he's been kicked out of law school, so to speak, and everyone's questioning him and everyone's confused over him, and he has lost the possibility of the type of love of future and career he wanted, and yet he's showing that he has no anxiety, no depression, no anger, and everything is just just fine. It's almost like here I am. I'm very happy, and these things

don't bother me at all. And being intelligent, Okay, that's a combination of a couple of things. One his IQ came up to in the one hundred and twenties and which is superior. But in addition to the IQ, he

had the bags from college. He had his work in the political campaigns, and so he had he had had a chance to develop a political personality, if there is really such a thing, and had interacted with a lot of people over the years, and so he had learned to present himself very well in a very intelligent manner. And I believe that he practiced a lot of forethought

of what he was going to say. So at times when I asked him something that he hadn't thought of, he hummed, and Hawden had a more difficult time answering it. But yeah, being intelligent, he was able not only to pull off the crimes not get caught except for the Jodge and then in Florida, he was able to convince people, a lot of people that he really didn't he didn't do anything.

and that one really triggered something. It just means that a lot of criminals they learn to desensitize to the crimes and to the guilt, so it just doesn't bother them. It bothers them less and less and less over time, because they've they've in essence, they've they've compartmentalized criminal stuff and that personality that can do that so easily, and they go back and forth between the two that they've desynthitized the guilt, you know, and I think most girls

should be themselves and something. I'll be an attorney and you know, test like this or obligatory obtuse, you know. So, Yeah, in the book, I take some of the items individually, then I combine some of them to show that some of the items saying that I'm twenty three, he's fearful of not being loved, he wants happiness and peace, he wants caring people, you can't stop struggling. And I put those together in such a way that it creates hypotheses.

It's not saying that this is absolute proof. It's saying these is suggesting some things which then I could explore more in the interview.

in his life to check out that story. And it's interesting the conclusions as a result. So let's go back to when he was born and talk about his early childhood from his mother, Louise Cowell, and his early life moving around and illmgited, illegitimacy and that being an issue. Let's talk about his early life, his early childhood before we talk about high school and the changes did occur at that time.

And so she goes to this home front with mother's in Vermont and she has Ted and then she comes back and so he has his two aunts and they seem when Ted in the interview, and this was a big part of it. It's like, who's Ted talk about? When he is expressing himself or giving information, he talks more about the two ads when he was living in Philadelphia than to his mother. And it doesn't prove anything, but again it just adds to the impression that it

wasn't real good the relationship. And he supposedly was told that his mother was his sister, and we don't have anything about when he actually learned that his mother was his mother. You know, he never said anything about that. But he was illegitimate. He was never told he was. And so she goes up north and she marries John Bundy. Ted didn't get along with him very well. Other kids come in the home and so now Ted is the oldest,

but he's not fitting in. It's a very religious family, and it seems like the social activities were largely centered around the church. And when he was young, and there's one place he had a couple of friends and he called themselves the Three Musketeers, and they lived somewhat close, but not real close. A mile was so away from each other. And then he moves to this other place and Ted one lady I talked to who lived on the same block as him, pretty much across the street.

And in the evening as the kids would gathered around someone's porch and they would just talk like kids do, and then play games and things like that, like those old games kicked the can and run sheep, you run, and all those things are popular in those days. And I asked her, I says, well, what was he like? And she says, he was just ted. He didn't show any anger, He was shy. He was more of a listener. And Ted told me that he would listen to the radio.

And back then we had Sky King and Tom Mix and Roy Rogers and all of those radio stations that we listened to every week because the serials were fascinating, you know, we couldn't wait till the next week, They're here, the next part. But he would listen to those. But the big thing was he would also listen to political talks. And he said, spontaneously listen to political speeches, and he

would memorize parts of them. Well, when he was in elementary school, he wanted to be at the top of the spelling group and he wasn't and he said he was humiliated by that. And again you have one of those words that says something beyond what I think he was trying to say, the saying he was humiliated. And you put all that together and with what this lady said, Jed was just a very lonely boy. He was shy. He just didn't sit in so a lonely boy reaches

out for something. And when he got into early teens twelve thirteen years old and that period, and I said to him, said, Ted, did you ever go out with some girls that associate with him? Says yes? Did you ever kiss a girl?

off guard. He sold gi L, I don't know what it could have been, you know, And that's like, whoops, wait a minute, there's a lot more to this story than what he's saying. So as a child, then before high school, he was lonely. He friends in the neighborhood, but then in junior high and spasically high school, they all got involved in other things and Ted didn't, and he was left out. And now was his childhood.

to his girlfriends as well. Before we talk about college, let's talk about high school and what Ted had to say about high school and what other people have to say about some of the things and some of his personality in high school.

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of her house and she was never seen again. And Dick Larson, who was the associate editor of these Saddle Times, we talked about this and he said, you know, he says, that was one of the biggest events that had ever happened in that area, in that town. He says, everybody was searching for her, the fleets, the townspeople, they were dragging the rivers, they were looking and was they were looking everywhere for this girl. And I asked, I said he Ted was fourteen at the time. And I said, Ted,

tell me about this this young girl that disappeared. And he said he didn't know anything about it. Yeah, And I said, because then I followed up with a question, but Ted, how could you not have known about it? Because the townspeople, it was discussion over breakfast dearer meals, all the kids in school were talking about it, and you didn't know anything about it, about it happening that it happened. And he says, he was just involved in

school activities and too busy doing that. And so I thought, whoops, wait a minute, that is a real red flag. And then when he was having a discussion that he was For a while there, they lived with his mother's brother, uncle Jack, and uncle Jack was professor of music at the University of Fust's son and his aunt Eleanor, he said, was very intelligent, very sophisticated, a frail and his cousin John, and they would have these little well in wrestling and

John would win. And then they were talking about their future and John said, according to Ted, John was going to go to York and was going to go to a major university and dry the night's expensive car around, you know, just kids bragging. And Ted said, well, I'm going to do the same thing, and John says, no, you're not. He says, yes I am, and John says no. One says I'm like, why why do you think that? And he's John says, because you're illegitimate. Ted never heard that.

He had no idea about that. So here you have in his early teens, he is still lonely. And we know that later on wings down Florida to talked about the window peeking and about the pornography and such, so we know he was really into that. But I didn't have any evidence of that at the time when I was doing my evaluation. No, And one of the things I did pick up, like he was standing and in the hallway in school with his friend and another kid comes up and says to their friend, Hey, how would

you like to do something tonight? Yeah, he goes, yeah, sure, and kid didn't mean look at Ted didn't ask him. And so this was one of the things that Ted experienced, just that not fitting in, not being one of the people. And so throughout his high school years we still have a very lonely kid who just doesn't fit in until

he becomes a senior. And it may have occurred to some degree during the winter of his junior but when he became a senior and he was working in the high school political campaigns to get a couple of BIS friends help them get elected school buddy student body offenses, and so then we get into that major event with skiing when he became a senior.

And he was good at skiing. And I'm not sure just where he learned to be good at, but he was good at skiing, and he was one of them, and he could laugh and he could joke, and in fact, he took some of the passes, their ski passes, and he was able to changed the date so they could go skiing the next day or on another day using the same past and they wouldn't have to pay for it. And Ted was quite proud of this, and he told

me this himself. But then they came home and the guys would go with their girlfriends to the dances, that night and Ted would go home alone and he would just shoot baskets in his yard or just you know, whatever he was doing. But he was alone. So on one hand, he was in. He was one of the boys. And Ted told me, he said what he wanted as he was a a student in high school, junior senior.

He says, what he wanted was to have a college degree and a beautiful co ed and he said it just like that, a beautiful co ed. So you know, Ted wanted something and he was one and but he fit in so well, then he come home and he's all alone and the guys are out having fun. And then they did this throughout the winner in their skiing trips, that each time it was a happy occasion followed by rejection not fitting in.

pattern with him. But what does he say to that Why he became so dissatisfied so soon.

He didn't have the money. And he went to the universe of Puget Sound because he said his home was close to the college, and since he didn't have a car, and I'm not sure if his uncle was still a professor there at the time, you know, maybe got rights to college. But so he went there, but he didn't

fit in. And he he said, it wasn't that big of a deal yet to a lonely boy who wants a beautiful co ed and who has experienced being one of the boys on the skiing trips, and now he's more alone because the other kids have gone off to other colleges. His friends have and he goes to UPS. So I think that was a real, real downer for him.

So then for a sophomore year, he goes over to University Washington and he I think he gets involved in some political activities during the summer before going to University of Washington.

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And he was concerned about what happened in Watts and Ted throughout his career without the time he was free. And the different people I talked to him talked to them about him. They said that he did seem to want to help the poor and the people who were oppressed in some way. But so he always had this and so he's going to go out in Chinese studies and when he's in University of Washington. He starts that and he's going with Marjorie, and he was very impressed.

Now she is a major turning factor in his whole life. And I need to stress that she did not do anything wrong. Marjorie was a good person. She came from a wealthy family. Her father was the CEO of an international business. And so she was looking, I think, for someone who was similar to her father, who had dreams about the future, who some goals of what they wanted to do in life, and they were motivated to do something about it. And she saw sad this and Ted. Now the problem.

sure he did. But then see, and the problem was, you've gotten extremely shy, lonely boy who has suddenly found the ideal person that he he wants to be with and wants to marry, and and she breaks it off, and he has put all of his marbles in one basket.

He was stressed, he was depressed. He was literally falling apart. So he didn't complete his semester there and in January, that's when he had to leave. They are Yeah, and went back to Philadelphia and spent time with his grandparents. And that's when he went up to Vermont and got a look at his birth certificate because his cousin had already showed it to him, and he said, my father but he went up there to check it out and

found that it was real. No father, and he started spending time in New York and some of the girly places. So he was really getting heavy into a lot of pornography by then. And then he came back and worked in a political campaign and that was short, but he was a driver at the time, and he loved that, and he said that he could give the candidate some advice and read some good speeches and things like that.

But again he was fitting in, but as a candidate didn't get elected, so he had to leave again, went back.

where he had some talks with Marjorie. Again she thought this whole time, and Marjorie did not totally break up contact and Marjorie would say that. At times when she just wanted to talk and or she wanted to get some advice about something, she called Ted, and Ted periodically would call her to see how she was doing. So he went back there and he visited a little bit. Then he went back up too, to Washington, where he was now planning to go to school. And then you met Liz.

sleep overnight. And to him, it was just a very very nice relationship. He was very pleased with it. He was happy with her. He talked about winter came and she wanted him to come down to Utah to visit her parents. And he came down and he said he enjoyed being here, enjoyed talking to her mother and her father, and he just felt very good. But the problem began when she started talking about getting married, and he mentioned they went and got a marriage license and he wasn't

ready to get married. Of course, he couldn't get married. I mean, I think he's doing a lot of sexual prowling at night, so he couldn't marry her. And he couldn't stay in her place all the time permanently, he couldn't give up his apartment. But when she wanted to get married, and she pushed it and kept trying to get him to get married, he got angry at her

at one time. And I don't know if it was he stold me or if she said that her parents were going to come up and she wanted him to take his clothes out of her closet, and he got angry at her, and he tore up the marriage license and and but they didn't break up, you know. And he kept telling kept telling her that it was going to go to law school, that the ups and finally she checked and learned that no, he wasn't a registered he hadn't been applied. And he told me that, he says.

Then he told her that he hadn't graduated from college. And an interesting thing about him was when he would tell her something like that, he didn't seem to do it with an air of anger. It was more of, you know, I'm sorry I didn't tell you, and if if you don't want to continue our relationship, I didn't understand, you know, he was contrite in that way. But then she wanted to continue with the relationship, so she said

she'd helped put him through college, and she did. And then there was a couple other things next spring, and he really got angry at her a couple of times. I think she wanted to make him jealous, and she went out with the guy and Ted followed them, or he saw that he was outside the restaurant, and he he went home and he wrote her a long letter

telling her how much he needed her. But he really got hurt by them that and then following the spring, I believe it was that she again wanted to make him jealous, and she agreed to go on a catamaran trip with the guy and she would just help him with it with his boat, and he got very angry. And this was one of the times when he paused me. He looked at me and he said that that was the last straw. And the important thing about that during our interview was that he seemed to look through me.

It was as though he was looking past and into the past, passed me and into the past, like he was reliving that again. At least now that was just my impression at that time. But he was angry. He was really really angry at that point where he says that was the last straw. And but they stayed together, and then he graduated from graduated from the college with the Baxley degree in psychology in June of seventy two. And then we get into the next phase of his life.

lived had chosen another man. But when you talk about a story about this formerly super shy guy that was having no success with women, but now he's having a relationship with the woman named Kim, and there's a confrontation team Liz and Kim. So tell us a little bit about some of the successes he starts having. Once he graduates and rule and then this confrontation very interesting and this demonstrative incident with kim.

she was a crime writer at that point. And how much of that fitted in with everything else, you know, he was doing, I'm not sure. But the Ted was changing by then, and Marjorie was getting more impressed with him, and they were still having the talk. But so he was still beholden to Liz, but he wasn't going there as often. And his statement to me was that he was doing some of the bad boy types of things.

And so he is still telling Marjorie that once he gets settled in a job that they can get married. So she is still anticipating getting married, and yet he starts going out with a couple of the girls from the Harbor View Center Mental Help, and one of the girl I named Kim, had a good conversation with her. Now she talked about how what she saw in Ted and how the relationship between them seemed to be a struggle. It was who was stronger, who was who is more competent,

who is more skilled? Who you know? And and she said a couple of times he made sexual advance. It was a real mental and physical struggle. And when he was in the center, and I got this from a couple of people. Now he was a counselor, and I wasn't sure just what this meant, because if a person is a counselor, it's usually because they've had a lot of training. Now, now Ked had a bachelor's degree in psychology, that he didn't necessarily have a lot of experience in therapy.

And when he would be with some clients, he told me that he didn't like it there because he was given schizophrenics and he said he hadn't been skilled, He hadn't been hadn't been trained on how to work with schizophrenics, and who knew him there, said he was just cold. He came and went as he as he wanted to, and he just didn't communicate and people saw him as an intellectual phony. Now Kim was interested in and she

was twenty three years old at the time. And when you start doing that then and he got a job there after he graduated, and that brought an end to the volunteer work, I believe with Van Ruel. But then he started going out with him and it was very problematic because he, on one hand, took her out and I think is well took her out to the river and they had a picnic, and she said they drove there and she was somewhat impressed, but slightly con choose,

because he seemed to know where he was going. He was going to dease out of the white places, you know. But so when they got there and they were going there for this picnic and have fun, and she expected, yeah, they might have sex. And there was a tree there and he wanted her to climb up in the tree, to go out on a branch that extended out over the river and to jump in. And she didn't want to do it. She said, the river was it was fast, the water was fast, it was cold, and she didn't

want to do it. But he kept trying to get her to climb up in the tree and jump off, so finally she just jumped off in the river from the bank. And she thought, well, that way, I'm in the water, so he can't get me to jump out of the tree. She thought, of all the stupid things, why would he want me to climb up there? And there wasn't so much that he was going to do it, as she ain't seemed to indicate but that he wanted to.

But he jumped the water also, and then in the process of this, he pushed her head under the and just held it there and then finally let it up. And he did this three times, as I remember, and finally he says, what are you trying to do? Drown me? And her thought was not so much that he actually was trying to drown her, because he thought, no, he's not going to do that. No, But her thought was we're all alone, nobody knows we're here. But they got out, and I assume they had a blanket that they got

out and laid on the blanket and had sex. And her what it was, what it was like, was it passionate? Was was he gentle? And she says it was as though he was raping her. It was consensual sex, but she she and some others would say that at times Ted just seemed to space out, and she says it was like it was like he was somewhere else in

his mind when he was having sex. No, and then there were times when he tried to press her to have sex, and she said, it wasn't that I didn't want to, it was just the situation was not right, and it was a real put down to him, you know. So, yeah, you talk about major event.

Marjorie which is surprising to her. Tell us about this event that so many people spoken about before.

big celebrations about that. In the beginning of seventy three, they have this big party, this big celebration, and Ted is going to take Liz to it, And a day before, or a couple of days before, he and Liz go shopping to get her a dress for this ball, and she gets something, and then they come out of the store and Ted begins running off, and evidently there was some guy that was a purse snatcher and Ted running

down and stopped him. Of course, she thought this is great, but she said, and he said, when they went to the ball, she drank a little too much, and she isolated herself and was off drinking by herself when Ted was associating with all these people. Now, the problem was this was his comfort, She was his security. But he said she did not have the personality that he was looking for or what he wanted, because you know, he graduated and he's going to get into politics, then he

was going to do these wonderful things. So he wanted a woman with that personality who could get in and everyone could say Wow, she's wonderful, she's beautiful, she's all of this, and he says, besides, she had a child and she had a drinking problem. So he just couldn't couldn't settle on that, and so that's the So then, but he'd started college and in the summer, that's the ball took place in January of seventy seventy three, and

Ted he was questioning about who wanted. In the summer of seventy three, he went down to San Francisco and spent about a week with Marjorie because they had been talking and Ted had he was outgoing, he seemed confident, he was a good conversationalist, a good talker, and she was impressed. So there was some hint that maybe they

could get back together again. So Liz is up in Seattle and Ted goes down and meets Marjorie in San Francisco during the summer, and she's impressed with him, and he looks on her as a possible wife, the type of wife he wants. After all, she comes from a wealthy family, she's graduated, she's employed, she's beautiful, everything he wants. And so they do some things together. The first night or maybe two nights he's in a hotel. Then he goes and he's invited to her place and they start

the relationship. And then she comes up in the fall and Ted is now going back to colleges at UPS to study law at a time, Liz goes with him to classes and she's to join that. She doesn't know anything about Marjorie. But Marjorie comes up in the fall, and Ted and Marjorie seem to get along quite well, and she plans on coming back again for the Christmas holidays in seventy three. And this is a real major thing for Ted. So he's going to classes, he's basically

doing okay. And then Liz goes, takes the daughter and goes back to her family for the Christmas holidays. And I think Ted just said, I'm going to stay here because I got love of studying to do and I want to catch up on some things.

wedding on her mind. And they're thinking of getting married that spring, and she's going to go home and get prepared for it and tell all the family and everything else. And Ted told me, he says, I couldn't wait to get back to Liz. And when I asked him what

was wrong. He saw Marjorie as a little too controlling, and she would get angry agree at him for little things, lost his keys in the car, forgot to pick up some tomatoes, or sufferer and little things like that, and so he saw her as very critical and an important thing. At this point, now Ted is already killed at least two and possibly more. You know, when he said that was the last straw when Liz went out on the catamaran,

I think he killed someone about that time. But he's looking, you know, so I think what he wants, think what he wants. He doesn't want to go on killing. I think he is so addicted to trolling for women and looking for victims and fantasizing, and he gets so locked in to all of this fantasy life. And some of the girls he went with talked about how he seemed to space out during sex and he would choke him and they would have to shake him, and he didn't

seem to realize what he was doing. And the one girl would say that she and Liz were walking down the road and Ted was walking toward him, and he passed him, and he just didn't seem to see him, you know. And one of them, they were in a restaurant and they were talking about abortion, and Ted was

very much against this, you know. And one thing we didn't mention, Liz got pregnant and had some abortion and and so there in this restaurant and Ted seems to squeeze his glass so tight, and whether he hit it on the table or just his hands, he broke the glass as they were talking about this, and he got so angry about it. No, but so he runs back to Liz and and when Marjorie flies down to California. But what seemed to happen was again he was putting

all of his marbles in one basket. He was hoping that Marjorie would come up, they would re establish relationship, because in his mind he was still seeing her as the girl she was back when they were going to college, and he was he thought he had this beautiful intelligence woman who could be his companion in the campaigns and as a politician and lawyer and all of this. And he was very disappointed.

we get into lakes some mammage. But his grades began to go down, and he had applied the University of Utah law school and he got accepted or the fall of seventy three. But then he sent him a letter and says, see, I'm sorry.

So you talk about all this unraveling around this time, But we don't have enough time to go any further, doctor al and we will have to leave it for people to explore in your incredible book. I also want to just talk about that this assessment that this evaluation affected Ted in his sentencing with a five to life, a five year to life sentence. However, that your correspondence did not end with Ted, as we alluded to in the introduction, that there was more correspondence, more compact with

Ted after the world knew who he was. And again, very very fascinating, fascinating interviews that you have and you've included in this book. This as you write, this affected you for the rest of your life. Unbeknownst to you at that time, this affected your career and your life. Just tell us what, in conclusion, what really this really meant to you. We know we have this fine book called Violent Mind about this assessment and evaluation and your

correspondence and all the interviews that you did. But what did you take away most from this? What could you say was the biggest and most profound effect that this entire evaluation, assessment and relationship with Ted Mundy had on you?

more talks. And then and when he escaped from jail and got caught, and he called me and we talked and he was very friendly, and he talked to me. I just wanted to know how I felt, what my perception was of his escape. But we had Arthur Gary Bishop who came to prison I killed five kids, and when I went down to talk to him, it was just okay, you know, I'm from the psychology department, if you want to talk. And he says, I want to be executed for those kids, but I don't understand why

I did it. So for the next next period of time, a couple of years, I got all of his history about why and how it happened. And then I went up and talked to Wes Dodge, who killed three kids, and got all of his story, and each of them gave me a couple of hundred pages of material about it, and I just became very confident in talking serial killers.

And I went up and talked to Keith Jasperson, a happy face killer, and I interviewed for a year over year in depth with a Vietnam a guy who came back and became a hit man, and he told me his whole story, and I started writing these things down.

I'm very happy and it's actually more of a hobby than anything, but thoroughly enjoyed. We're an understanding serial killers and so that's what it's done.