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Love to Canadian, You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime History and the authors that have written about them. A vain man of good looks but no family tied to the mob, Vincent Vinni Gorgious Basciano worked his way up to acting boss of the Banano crime family, becoming its leader when official boss Joseph Massino went to prison in two thousand and three. When the mafia was crawling with
secret operatives and informants. Caving to government pressure to flip, Basciano steadfastly obeyed the code of La casinostra. I got faith in one guy, he said during a secretly taped meeting. That man was Messino, head of the Banano Borgada. But for all his loyalty, Basciano was still a hot headed,
cold blooded killer, which ultimately led to his arrest and downfall. Then, in a remarkable betrayal that rocked the Five families to their foundations, Messino secretly cooperated with the FBI, the first head boss ever to roll over. As a result, Basciano faced the death penalty, but a federal jury, disturbed by
the prosecution's use of deadly criminal informants, reached a surprising verdict. Here, from veteran crime author Anthony M. Di Stefano comes the riveting story of the last true believer in the mobs cult of Brotherhood and his betrayal at the hands of the only man he ever trusted. The book that we're featuring this evening is Vinnie Gorgeous, The Ugliest Ugly Rise and Fall of a New York Mobster, with my special guest journalist and author, Anthony M. Di Stefano. Welcome back
to the program. Anthony di Stefano.
Thank you, and you can call me Tony.
Okay, Tony, thank you very much. Thank you for coming back on This is another great book, this one you've vot done yourself. Let's get right to this now. I love the way you set up this book and you drew us in and like I was saying to you in earlier in the just before we went on the air, the very soprano ish in terms of you grabbed the reader and bring them right into something that we see
only in the movies. So let's talk about first the the sort of colorful character of Randy Randolph Puzzolo and just how you start in the book. Let's talk about this guy's sort of erratic character and who he is and his role in the mafia. Tell us about this Randolph Puzzolo and how you start in your in your book, Vinnie Gorgeous.
Yeah, I opened. I opened the book with the scene where Pizzolo was killed, because it really allowed us entree into the wider story. Pisolo was one of these tragic characters who had aspirations to join the mob and wanted to be a maid member and you know, did his h did his work and had his loyalties, but he had a lot of problems, and some of the problems was his sort of poor impulse control. He did things that embarrassed people and showed that he was somewhat hot tempered.
He also had the misfortune of doing some poor construction work at a time when it was very important that he do well in his jobs, his straight jobs, as it were, and that seemed to antagonize people around him, including Bassiano, who really used him on a number of projects.
But really it was a confluence of things. His pouring pulse control, his embarrassed, embarrassing episodes where he was doing things with guns and bars and stuff and shooting up places really started to within on people, and ultimately, you know, his number came up, and he was and he knew something was going on. He knew he didn't have long untill live. In fact, the night he was killed, he was supposed to meet an insurance agents and take out
an insurance policy on his life. And he went to this location in green Point, which is a sort of deserted industrial place in Brooklyn between Brooklyn and Queens right on the Cusp, and it's a gritty industrial area. And he drove there and he was meeting a couple of characters he was expected to meet. He was going to meet them, and he thought it was just going to be a short meeting and then he was going to go do his life insurance policy and then have drinks
with another friend of his. Well, it didn't happen. He was gunned down on the street, and people coming to work the next morning at about six point thirty or so found his body on the street. And that was the murder of Randy Pizzolo, and that was really the nub of the case against Bassiano. The solving of that murder and the gathering of evidence was the thing that
sort of put the Feds finally onto Vinnie Bassiano. It was, you know, it was just a cool, bloody shooting and it was done, as we found out through the evidence in the case, by his friend Ace, a guy by the name of al who is the triggerman. And that's what loyalty is in the mob. That's what happens.
Now. Dude, what I really liked is you painted you talk about these guys. It's not like these guys are shy about doing murders, but it is not something that it can just happen. And you explain how if somebody were to kill someone without this being cleared by the boss, that might get you killed itself. The thing that you talked about this Pizzolo being especially well somebody wanted to kill him, was especially a couple of the things that
he did do. He was again harassing an agent in a restaurant again, and you explained in the book that's because the mafia would really like people to take to leave people alone that are just doing their job. So that's the way they see it. And the other thing was he had said to someone else, I guess in one of the families, that they better not be a rat or try to be a rat. So these are kind of things that are major offenses, aren't they. And so he didn't get killed for nothing, right.
Well, he was you know, he kept screwing up in small and big ways, and you know, in sort of embarrassing people and insulting people. And after a while that's starting to wear thin. And then he was told what really sort of I think ice the case against him, but that he was told, you know, to leave New York, go down to Florida and you know, take care of some projects in Florida. And he didn't want to go.
You know, he had his family here, he had his daughter here, he had you know, other interest here, and he didn't want to go. He wasn't going to go, he said, I'm not going. So that sort of put him on the radar. And when you when you sort of diss the leadership and you don't go or get chased as it were, when you're supposed to, that's gonna things are going to happen. And that's what happened.
Yeah, And he knew, especially when that occurrence, that thing happened in terms of asked, asked to be going to Florida, he knew what that meant, right and him, he knew.
What you got to get out of here. Yeah, you got to get out here otherwise you're going to have trouble. And he didn't go, and he got in a lot of trouble fatally.
Now you talk, you talk about as Anthony ale and who killed Pizzolo when they find evidence shows later that but he's a soldier with Vincent bi Biano.
Uh, and so tell us that the pronunciation of the best thing screwed me up too. His family had a different pronunciation even for me or Basciano. They they put the kind of accent on the on the middle syllables. But uh, you know, we'll call him Vinnie gorgeous simplifies it. Uh, but he he I think your question was, uh, what Ace's connection was to Bashano and he was under h under Vinnie's asia as it were he was part of his his crew of people.
Uh.
He was a very loyal dog as they call him, and Vashiano called him my look of Brasa looka Brasi rather, who is a character from the Godfather film who was the sort of loyal supplicant who would do anything. And that's what that was Iola's reputation. He would do anything.
Include it's great you showed the photo of the guy. I guess it's a mugshot, no doubt. It doesn't look like a high school graduation.
Most of them are mugshots.
He looks very intense, looks very believable. He's capable of something serious.
We'll say, yeah, he has that look right, the sort of head sort of merges with the neck, and he's got these eyes that it looks straight and very cold, jet black eyes. And you know they kind of say, you know, you don't want to mess with him.
No, no, he looks like a serious guy. Now, tell us about give us the background on Vinnie gorgeous, because it's it's sort of a well, it is a very very interesting story his rise. But just give us the background and who he was at a younger age and how he grew up. Tell us a little bit about Vinnie Gorgeous. How he Vinnie was.
Yeah, Vinnie was a guy. You know. I grew up in Westchester County, which is just north of New York City. He didn't grow up in the Bronx, as it turns out, they call him Vinnie from the Bronx. He you know, came from a average sort of Italian American family. His father was a stonecutter, sort of a craftsman as it were. His mother was a house a housewife, and Vinnie, you know it was a knock around kid. He didn't really
finish high school when he was supposed to. Instead, he was kind of like a as it was portrayed to me, a Robin and type character, where he'd you know, stick up for kids in the neighborhood who you know, were being put upon. And he did that for one person who happened to be the relative of Dominic Trinchera. Now Dominic Trinchera may not mean much to people now in the Van Schema things, but he was a pretty powerful
captain in the Bonano crime family. When Hinterrera Schinchera Trinchera let me there we go pronunciations again, found out that Vinnie helped his I guess it was his nephew. He took a liking to him, and the Vinnie sort of was around and Vinnie was became a Dominick's driver, and that was Vinnie's entree to this world, which at the time was a pretty powerful organized crime world. Crinchera was involved, as they tell us, the FETs tell us, a lot of narcotics dealings, and he had a you know, ties
to the Montreal faction of the family. And there's this very interesting photo that was taken of a wedding at a swank hotel in Manhattan in which all the Banana mobsters and all the Canadian mobsters were together and Trinchera is there at the table and who is behind Trinchera but Vinnie Basciano as a young sort of starry eyed kid, no tie. He wasn't dressed for a wedding, you know, he just had a a sport jacket on and had
an open, open college shirt. And the FBI was looking at that picture when they finally got and they said, yeah, who is this guy. He's a young kid, and he came in a way that would have normally showed disrespect at this wedding, coming dressed down as you were, and they found out ultimately that he was Domini's Trinchera's driver
and that's was Vinnie's entree to the world. And by you know, small steps, you know, he became an associate, he got involved in gambling, and in fact, he remained involved with gambling for most of his life and you know, then became initiated to the family about nineteen ninety one ninety two, and then you know, made his rise pretty quickly after that because it showed, he showed that he could be relied upon to you know, earn money, certainly
through gambling. And there was always the claim that he wasn't the drug dealing. You know, he beat a very big heroin case. So he made his way, he made his bones, as it were, you know, through the gambling operations. He had a reputation for being involved in homicides, and you know, he sort of solidified his credentials as it were, what was.
His legitimate what was his legitimate business face though?
What was he what legitimate Yeah, Legitimately he was involved in a number of things. He had a video store, he had a sandwich store, sort of a deli, He had construction business businesses, and he had a beauty salon which was called Hello Gorgeous, which I learned was taken from a line taken from the movie Married Married to the Mob, and he got the moniker off of that, and also because of his good looks as Vinnie Gorgeous.
So that's how it stuck. But he had a lot of legitimate enterprises, and he was pretty much involved in legitimate businesses up until the very time he got arrested in two thousand and four.
Now you say this, he slowly rose in the Banano family in small increments and doing certain things, and obviously gained the grace of people in power. Tell us some of the things that he would would be required to do. We're talking about a guy that ends up, you know, having a violent streak in him. So is there any hint of anything like that? He said when he was young and he was sticking up for kids in the neighborhood.
But were there any violent streaks around that time? It also impressed or worried is.
Well ultimate leader? I think he you know, he had the reputation of being involved in a homicide of some unknown person who was in a gambling dispute, and they're never able to develop.
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Name on it. But supposedly he was involved in a murder that took place in a social club. It was never proven in a court of law, but that kind of made bosses like Messino, Joe Messino a little, well not a little, but a leary of him because he had a reputation for, you know, being having a hot streak and sort of doing things sort of without the
clearance of sanction. And then ultimately, when you know, we got into the situation where before Pisolo, there was another murder that took place, which he ultimately got convicted for in federal court, this guy from Frank and sen Toro, which Messino had not cleared, nobody had cleared, and which normally would have gotten Vinnie in a lot of trouble, but Messino sort of just maybe gave him a tongue lashing and that was the end of it. But Messino was leery of him, so they tell us, but kept
him around. Nonetheless, you know, he didn't kick him out of the family. I think Messina saw a lot of
use that could be gotten from somebody like Vinnie. He had his gamily enterprises, he had his you know, it's legitimate businesses, and he had a certain sort of charisma on the street, partly because I think his good looks, but also because he was very self self assured and very assertive, so he would you know, he was a guy who could take command, and in a family for a boss who need somebody to take command, that's not a bad thing.
Yeah, he was well liked by people. Was gonna put that into a question that he was He obviously had this charisma, but he also had to dodge all the bullets that could come his way, so he had to have that natural leadership and charisma and and really just
get along with people. Basically, what I found interesting too, is how you portray this guy having again I don't know normal, I don't know what normal is, but as normal a life as say, of a businessman with a with a wife that was quite attractive and outgoing, and so they they partied and associated with people. Tell us a little bit about that he was it seemed to have almost a normal life.
So he did. In some ways, he was like Messino because Messino had a normal life. Messino had a lot of legitimate businesses. He had had a wife and a family, two three daughters, and you know, and you know who grew up you know, in a in a nice family setting,
you know, church going family, and Basciano's family. You know, he had four kids, four boys, and he had a wife, a tractive wife, and she was working as well, and she worked in some of his businesses or had her own businesses as well, and they did very well for themselves. They moved up to Scarsdale at some point, which is a very sort of nice community to reside, and most people aspire to that. And he did well, he did well, and in some ways, you know, Messino did very well.
He didn't do as well as Messino. Materially, Messino hoarded lots and lots of money. I mean, he had millions upon millions of dollars in cash. But Bashiana did very well for himself. And you know, he had a normal family setting, as it were, although you know, he did have a girlfriend, and with that girlfriend he had a he had another son, and that sort of created some interesting issues when he got arrested and had to go to trial.
Yeah, now, tell us about this Florida aparted me the Blue Thunder, and tell us how some people, well Basiano avoided being prosecutor or pardon me, convicted, but some other people weren't so lucky. So tell us about this initiative by the authorities. The Blue Thunder heroine. Tell us about that story.
The Blue Thunder case was Vinnie's really first major serious case. Now, we had an earlier attensive murder case involving a guy in a booky operation, but that case was either so mishandled or the evidence was so problematic that they pled it down to a gun case and Vinnie had to go away for about a year in jail. But the Blue Thunder case was a heroin case. Blue Thunder was a brand of heroin that was in the city streets in the late nineteen eighties early nineteen nineties, and the
Feds ultimately made an indictment. They indicted Vinnie most about the characters running a very large accusing him pretty a large heroin trafficking ring. Vinnie went to trial, as did about the probably about nine others. Vinnie had a very good lawyer. He had Ben Brafman as a lawyer's well known in the criminal justice field. Here he represented Tom and E. Strauss Khan later on. He had a very strong lawyer, and the case against Vinnie really was problematic,
and Brafman did a very good job. I thought of exploiting those weaknesses and arguing to the jury the look, they made a mistake with Vinnie. Yes, he's a gambler. We have tapes saying Vinnie's a gambler, but we don't have any tapes putting him in the middle of heroin ring or heroin operations. Vinnie got off. Number of others weren't so lucky, and they got convicted, and they got
long sentences, and some of them died in jail. But he got off, and you know, it should have been his wake up call In fact, Rathman told him said, look, Vinnie, you know, Vinnie, you don't know what just happened when you just got to quit it here. This doesn't happen every day. You know, nine out of ten people in federal court are going to get convicted. Vinnie avoided that. He got acquitted. So Brafman says, look, just forget about
this life. Go away, tell your businesses and do something else and forget about Vinnie gorgeous and Basiano, you know, gave him a knowing smile and said, okay, you know you basically saying to himself, look, I know how to live my life. You know how to do your business. You know, I'll do my thing my way. And that was that was that, and that led onto his next phase of the life, which was, you know, dodging one bullet.
He sort of is going to get ensnared and some other stuff, which is what happened.
Now.
Tell us that this is a good lesson for the FBI and authorities themselves because they do a wire tap and you say, the evidence is I don't know if it's weak, but it wasn't that strong. And then he had a really strong lawyer, which can be expected when a guy has money and he's fighting for his life, you know, so they knew that wire tap probably wasn't the best thing. But anyway, how does the FBI now or the authorities basically try to gain information on Vinnie Gorgeous?
Well, ultimately what happened after the Blue thundercase. You know, Vinnie goes about his life, he's doing this thing with the crime family, but he's really not on the radar on a big way. Messino is ultimately the guy in about early two thousand who came, you know, came into the radar the FBI sites. So they went after Messino, and the FBI did and in this offensive, and the the Bronx wing of the family, which was really Vinnie's wing,
wasn't getting that much attention in terms of prosecution. Ultimately they got they got Messino, they got him arrested, and they at that point, Messino, knowing he was going to be arrested, turned to guys like Basciano to sort of help out and running the family. So that Vinnie's you know, stock as it were, in his power and his ability
to do things. So Vinnie now was more of a name and he had more recognition, and the FBI started to put together resources to go after the Bronx, the Bronx wing of the Bonano family, focusing on Vinnie and some others, Patty his captain. And when Messino got convicted, and this is the fan of story, Messino, within minutes of this conviction decided he was going to cooperate with the THEI And this was a song and dance that
went on with the FBI in this. For a while, they weren't sure about Joe, they didn't know what he had. He gave him a couple of things he pointed out where some bodies were literally buried, and a lot in Queens. But ultimately it was when both Vinnie and Joe were in the federal lockup together that things started to happen.
Joe learns in a meeting, because these guys are all allowed to meet when they have the same you know, in the same criminal case and a co defendant meeting, Joe learns that Pizzolo, who we talked about earlier, it was dead and Joe hadn't sanctioned it, and Vinnie sort of indicates that, you know, something happened, and ultimately Joe and Vinnie have more conversations and this is where the
record gets a little strange. There was no tape recordings of these early conversations, but Messino swears that Basiana told him about the Bizola homicide, the reasons for it, and also about the idea of going after a federal prosecutor who they wanted to harm. There was no tape of those conversations. So Messino goes back to the FBI and
tells them about these interchange exchanges. They then wire up Joe Messino, you know, the first time a mob boss's official boss has ever been wired up, and that's in chapter two of the book. They send Messino to meet Basciano in the recreation area of the jail, and Messino makes these tapes, and if you listen to the tapes, there really works of art. Messino's basically a neophyte sort of spy at this point, but he's doing a pretty
good job. He sort of led Bachiano down the garden path and tells gets Vinni to admit that I had a conversation about taking out a prosecutor, but Basciano doesn't admit to really wanting to do that. He said, let's all forget about it. Forget about it's kind of like a arf hand thing. But Bashiano does indicate in those conversations that he did order the hit against Pozzolo, but then he did he pulled it back, you know, and canceled it, but he knew about it that he didn't
know about. He gives these equivocal indications that he was involved in the Pizzolo hit. So the sense take that. The FBI takes that and they said, well, you know, we have enough maybe to build a case, and they started building a case and that's when the dominoes start to fall after that, friend Lesson, go ahead.
Sorry, let's just go back just a little bit, because the amazing thing that we that you write about is Messino. And you know they talk about the Omaradi and America America.
By the Italian words.
You know, we should have a gift shot after this, he gets shot, after this, I should I should get beaten up. Okay, So anyway, he talks about he's up for murder, and so he's up for seven murders. So how many people turned state evidence against him?
It was amazing against Meine Evans. Yeah, against Messina, he had six major cooperators, including his brother in law sal vitally.
Yeah, it was amazed.
Pretty heavy. That's a pretty heavy load of witnesses against you, and Joe knew at that point that he had long road against them and defending that case. That was a major captains and major people in his family gave evidence consistently, by the way.
Yeah, so he he was done and then again amazing, almost very movie esque as well. So right after that, it's he's right in the judges chambers going listen, can we make it?
Yeah, it's amazing. I mean, Joe had to figure it out this a long time before he got victed. This case is going south on me. I've got to do something. What's my card? When one card? When one card? Is really to cooperate At that point, Joe didn't really have that much to give them, and the FBI was skeptical of it, you know, but they talk with him for a period of months and finally the thing happened with Basiana and we was able to take these conversations.
Now, from that they have that little bit of evidence, but of course they want to make an ironclad case here. So I found it very interesting that you write, and of course you have this incredible access. Again, what we spoke about in the introduction is very interesting an agent named James di Stefano, And I asked you any relation, no relation whatsoever. Now it happens to be the guy that was wiring Messino up. But we're talking about some information.
How are they now going to try to approach trying to get an ironclad charge, prosecution and conviction on Basiano? How are they going to go about this this time?
Well, what they did was they used the evidence that Messino had given them, the taped evidence, and they charged. Uh uh as I recalled Basciano and dominic Sicli in this situation, and so Calli, once he got arrested, ultimately decided to cooperate against Bosiano. So he gave a great deal of evidence against Bosiano.
Tell us that audience doesn't know who that is, and so tell us who Cicali is, and then his relation to Basiano.
Dominicicli was Basciano's right hand man, the sort of younger brother type person, as it were, a handsome guy, strapping Italian man, uh, you know, sort of crude, unpolished, but he had a lot of his own charisma and Vinnie I think saw him as like a son, a son figure. And he was a guy who became uh in ambered with Bassiano and others in the family and became took you know, it was under Basiana's wing, and ultimately became a soldier and then became an acting captain in the
crime family. And he did a lot of stuff with Vinnie. They did the uh, you know, gambling things. And as it turned out, and as we heard in court, it was so Calli who orchestrated the details of the Pizzolo murder. And he said he swears that this was on Basiano say so in order. The evidence gets a little strange here because Cali admits.
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That when Vinnie got arrested, that he himself canceled the hit against Pizzolo, but then a new acting boss in the family, guy by the name of Michael Mancuso, supposedly put it back on. So you have this sort of interesting break in the in the way this case goes. But ultimately, you know, the jury listened to Sakali and they they believed them on this. They believed that it was enough for Vinnie to get the snowball rolling down the hill, as it were, that he then bore responsibility
for Pizzolo's homicide in late two thousand and four. That's what happened on that and Cali gave it a lot of evidence, firsthand evidence. Messino broadly gave the indication that it was Basciano who indicated himself that he knew what was going on with the Pisola homicide. So you got these two major chunks of evidence against Vinnie, and then you have these other witnesses filling in uh some of the details, but largely that was Sicli, fortified by Messino.
Messino and flat flat out testified that Vinnie told him that he ordered Pizzolo killed, So you know, you get that kind of evidence and it's really hard to beat and that was a long struggle for Vinnie and it was ultimately it was an exercise and futility.
Now you single out some fine agents here that's done some hard work that had been on a Banano crime family kind of business for many years, interrediting the DA. But tell us some of the characters that were involved with some of the people behind the scenes that we're trying to get this prosecution in these charges before a court.
Well, the two agents who did the initial heavy lifting on Messino were Jess Select and Kim McCaffrey. They were part of this Bonano team led by Jack Stubing, sort of supervisory agent. Selette McCaffrey were young agents right out of the academy, but they are accountants, so they followed the money trail which ultimately got Messino implicated a lot of bad stuff. Select, an agent to Stefano, were the
ones who wired up Messino. The interesting thing is that Messino really likes Selet because it was Select who arrested and they treated him, you know, courteously, when dignity and that that little bonding you know played out later on because it was select who Messino approached initially to see the judge or ultimately think the marshals how to how
to take Messino inside. Uh. You then had Mike Breslin, who was now a supervisory agent I think in Philadelphia, who put together the case against Bosiano and his sort of wing of the family. And so you had, you know, a lot of things going on. You had a lot of moving parts here. But basically, you know, you have about a cadre of a good three or four agents who were able to do the heavy lifting and get this case going. And it really is a testament to
the way the FBI builds these historical mob cases. You know, they go back, they built a historical case against Messino. Once Messina got ensnared, they were building a historical case against Bossing and the Bronx wing of the family. And once they start focusing on that, well, you know what happens.
You know, everything starts to form the place because a lot of the guys who get arrested just don't want to do the time in jail, They don't want to keep with the old loyalties, and they turn state's evidence, and that's what happened here. You know, Everybodysino engendered no loyalty. Baciano in the end didn't engender any loyalty among his underlings, and that's what happened. Everybody sort of folded. But Basciano is the true believer. He's not doing any any cooperation
and in fact, I don't know what they're cooperating. Get about if he wanted to, Yeah, yeah, this is the last Yeah.
Now, the thing is that you you really described that domino effect too. Once they have one someone is snared, then they look for the other person and then give him an offer he can't refuse since he's looking at the rest of his life in prison. Like you say,
I don't know how much honor would really. I mean, there was cracks a long time before, Like you point out that initially there was always this connection right back to Sicilian neighborhood or village in Italy, so that they could go back and but that had been not been the case in mafia in America for many years anyway, hadn't it.
Well, that's what happened was that, you know, certainly in the early days of the Banana Crime fan with Joe Bernano, he had a lot of extended relations with you know, cousins or uncles and people who were close from the old country. Gradually that wore out, and what you had the bosses who were leading sort of combinations of people who were in it for the money, you know, and there's not really there's not really much loyalty. The all loyalty is really not there. You know, it's really a
money making proposition. And you know, a lot of people, they're Americanized middle class. You know, a lot of them are old, and they want to spend whatever time they have left outside of prison, so they're going to cooperate. The best job, somebody once said to me and some of these neighborhoods now, is to become a federal witness. You know, LA mafia doesn't give you a retirement plan.
The best retirement plan is to be a confidential informant where maybe you know, like Mesino, you'll be able to live some of your time remaining time out of jail. You might get social Security, you might get you know, a stipend. Casino did very well out of all this, I got to tell you, be credited with twelve homicides. He spent about ten eleven years in jail and he's going to be out in about sixty days or so.
So and he keeps us some assets, He keeps pension, an annuity, and he keeps a social security So Joe's Wherever's Joe going to live? And it's not going to be back in the old neighborhood, And I don't think it's going to be with his family anywhere near him. He's going to be comfortable and he's going to be able to you know how much of a time he has left, and he is not well physically, hasn't been for a while. You know, he'll live as a free man.
Now what's that freedom going to be worth? That's for him to decide, But clearly he was He comes out of this probably the best of everybody. That's my view.
Now with Basciano, he's he's looking at you know, this very very serious charges that you talk about in the book. How he he goes back to Brathman and asks him if he could represent him, And what's the answer and why does Brafman say no?
And which told me that yeah, he wasn't going to represent He wanted to get away from these mob type clients. And he said you know, he just didn't want to have it anymore. And he told them, look, I'm doing I have a big white collar practice, and I really don't want to represent people in this life. I can't help you. And ultimately, I mean it wasn't a total severance. I think for a short period of time a colleague of Brathman's represented Basciano at his arrangement on the big
federal case. But ultimately, you know, he severed the tides. He just had other fish to fry. You know, he had Dominique Strauss Khan, he had a lot of white collarge cases. You know, Ben has done very well in this life after these early successes with mobsters. So he told them, you know, we're out of here. You know, it's maybe somewhat cold, but you make a decision. You don't want to get too close to some of these guys Brafman, Tolman, and you know there are lawyers who
got ensnared by being too close to some of these clients. Uh, part credit, you know, Brafman did very well.
Now you talk about another person, I believe Tommy Lee that's maybe not the epitome of the ethical lawyer that Brafman at least would like to be.
Yeah, Tommy Lee, you know he was. Yeah, he was a lawyer out of the Bronx who was worked with Vinnie and represented some of his people in gambling cases when they got arrested. And it seemed that, you know, from what we saw and later in the cases, that Tommy you know, was really kind of enamored with these guys and for a while he was carrying messages back and forth between Messino and the outside world. Well that's a no. No, I was a lawyer because I put
you right in the middle of things. Tommy Lee got arrested, he pled out pretty quickly, and he turned state's evidence. You know, he was not an Italian guy, a member of the mob. But you know, he had a lot to lose, and he lost his law practice at least, you know, that's the way it is right now. And he you know, he had to move away, he had
to move away, but he gave states evidence. He gave evidence against Vinnie and some others, and you know, it was another sort of nail and Vinnie's coffin, as it were, to have Tommy Lee turn on him as well. What he supposed to do that?
Yeah, how did they proceed a trial to I mean, we're looking at a death penalty case. We're capital case here, So tell us what his lawyers did do or how they tried to attempt to defend him.
Well, what they're trying to do. Look, you had these tapes Messino made, Messino recordings. They are what they are. I mean, they're not you know, they're not abridged where they're not doctored. You know, the jury hears them. So what the defense tried to do was say, look, Vinnie's saying what he's saying, but he's really lying to Joe and trying to take the weight to keep Joe away from Dominic Sicali from thinking Dominic Sicali operated on his own.
Vinnie was taking the heat and trying to say that he organized the you know, the murder of Pasolo as a way of defending he was spinning a yarn in other words, with Messino. That was the way the defense tried to spin the tapes. And I gotta tell you it's hard. It's like you're trying to say, well, he said what he said, but what he said was was a fairy tale, And if you listen to those tapes,
that's not what's going to come out of it. You know, you're not gonna prevail with that, and ultimately, you know, Vinnie got convicted. Now, we figured that Vinnie was going to get convicted in that case anyway, The real battle was going to be over the death penalty because he was charged in a death penalty count with Pasolo's murder and that's you know, that would have been the first execution of a main New York City mobster since the
nineteen four I think when Lewis Lepkei was executed. So that was the real struggle for Vinny, the death penalty phase of this case. And that's where the defense really, I thought, you know, was able to turn the tide at least get Vinnie something life in prison ain't much, but it's something other than the death penalty.
Now, what was the strategy in terms of the death penalty of We alluded to it in the introduction, but what really way can you defend and say that there are some mitigating factors who then discount the death penalty.
There's basically three prongs to that. One is that Vinnie, as wild and crazy as the government painted him, would be well under the government's control with a life sentence in the supermac's prison out and say Colorado. That's one argument. The other argument is that has redeeming qualities as a human being, as a father, as somebody who has done a lot of charity for people who he knew. The other is that, look, okay, Vinnie's convicted of the Bisolo murder.
He's convicted earlier. Not in this case. It was the Centauro murder, and the prosecution claims he may or may not have been involved in other planned homicides or you know, alleged homicides, attempted homicides. But John Messino, the boss of the family, killed twelve people, Dominisicali, was involved in the Pizzolo homicide and the Centauro homicide. You have all these other characters who have cooperated or aren't being given the death penalty. It was just coupled as Vinni well more so,
you know, isn't really equitable to do that. And those three pretty strong arguments marshaled by the defense, I thought in this case, and ultimately I think the fact that Messino had such a bloody record himself made it to the jury impossible moral calculation to make for the deat penalty and they voted to give any not death but
life in prison, and that's how that case ended. Ravini gets another life sentence and he's out in supermax in Colorado, and you know, from what I hear, he's doing reasonably well, liking the food, liking the facility more than the other places he's been in, and he's got a life to think about. In jail, he's appealing and you know, we'll see where that goes. But for the moment, that's where he's at.
What's the relationship with him? And is it Angela Angelero?
Yeah, she was. She was there now and again in the trial. Uh, they're no longer married, but she does keep in touch with them, and she is supportive in the sense that you know, she keeps in contact. You know, they have four kids together, so they have to there's something that that binds them. And you know, it's an interesting turn of events because you know, it's a very public betrayal on his part of her by you know,
this this other girlfriend and the child. Because it became very public, and normally it doesn't, you know, become that, but this became very public. It became very scene and very tawdry and the tabloids had a field day with it. And she's a very private woman, but you know, and she sort of rolled with the punch. Uh. You know, there's one thing I must tell you. When Messino, what it became known that Messina was a witness, they took me, you know, out of the jail where Basciano was for
obvious reasons. Yeah, and they took him to a secure facility. And I'm told that Messino while he was in the jail had a pillow because he's a big guy and he had problems sleeping, so they game a pillow. And when Messino left, the pillow was offered to Bosiano. Basianos said, There's no way I'm gonna rest my head on that pillow. This is what I'm told. Wow, amazing.
Now, what was what was his demeanor and behavior like Vinnie at at trial?
Well, I mean he was, you know, he he I think he was getting frustrated with the court. He thought the judge was against him. Uh, you know, he sparred with his defense attorneys over tactics. He's smart with all his attorneys over tactics. And you know, I think because he wasn't solitary for so long, it's somehow affected his emotional makeup. I mean, he seemed to be on top of things. I mean, he kept incredibly with it. Physically
he looked fine. But I think, you know, there was an element of paranoia that crept in when you're in isolation for so long. But I mean he you know, he'd have an occasional outburst with a judge, but generally it went fine. You know, it wasn't really that many sharp issues.
What was his reaction to people like Messino and other people testifying against him? Did he have What was his reaction visibly?
None? Wow, you know, he'd sort of shake his head now and then you know, he didn't blurt out like a bulger. Supposedly he is blurting out in the Boston case. That really didn't happen. It really wasn't a factor. He kept as cool as it were for the most part. I don't think he looked directly at each other.
Yeah, incredible. So has anyone interviewed Bastiano since the verdict at all?
Now? I tried, I you know, I I Alfred I wanted to interview him for the book. But you know, he in a nice way declined and somebody told me that, you know, it just wouldn't look good on his MOB resume, So you know, we took that for what it was worth. I interviewed his wife in two thousand and six. She gave me a nice long interview, but this time around, and she wanted to keep her on counsel and she
would want to comment for the book. But I got to tell you, there's a lot of stuff I was able to derive that showed me what his thinking was about a lot of things, and for example, good inside well like his feeling about the meetings with Messino and jail. You know, there's a different spin that comes to that. It was apparently it was a Messino supposedly raised the issue of the prosecutor Vinny chimed in in a way that was from what I've read, it was more in
jest than anything, just blowing off steam. There's that kind of thing, you know. And apparently from what I'm hearing, he wasn't that nift with Pizzola, with Pazzolo's work as a contractor, which is one of the theories of the government's fun So you know.
What I found interesting too, is we didn't talk about was again Tarta tartaglionis Big Louis. Yeahs whe everybody thinks he is a snitch, so they're they're talking like they think he's wired. Anyway, tell us a little bit about that.
Well, Vinny thought, I'm talking Big Louis came back to New York after being in Florida. He said, he was thinking, well, look, Big louis on probation and he's coming back to New York to talk to us. Wise, guys, he's not supposed to do that. You know, it didn't sit right. Why is he doing that? Why is he coming back? Vinnie, from what I understand, thought that there's a chance that Tartaglione was an informant. But you know, he talked with them in the beginning, and gradually he sort of the
backpedal and really started to keep Tartaglion on the arm's length. Ultimately, what sort of sensed it was when Tartaglione offered Vinnie some hot Kruger rands that had been stolen, that came out of the blue, and Vinnie said that later we learned that. Vinnie said, you know that that indicates that he's Big louis an informant, And sure, enough. Big Louis was an informant, and about two days later the arrest came down. Not a Bessiana, but some other people were
at that meeting. Pasiana had good instincts. You know, these guys are not supposed to be fraternizing with other mobsters when they're on prohibition. So Big Louis coming back to New York to fratenize what's the bassiano or red flag?
Yeah, they're really tiptoeing in that conversation with them, too, weren't they.
Yeah, they really were. The first conversation they weren't so much. The second conversation with Vinie was kind of shaky. Uh with this he was really backpedaling and tiptoeing around their different things. And it was then that they told Big Louis, look, Louis, go back to Florida. You know. They didn't say I think you're a snitch. It's just go back. If we need you, we'll call you. And Big Louis and.
Yeah, and that effectively stopped that investigation in its tracks because of that incident itself, but it stop.
Big Louis use as an informant. But it didn't matter at that point. They had enough. So within two days they were indicting some of the other people in that meeting, and Big Louis turned out to me actually a pretty good witness in Messino's case and not so bad in Bassiano's case.
The Vitally was the guy that was the big guy in messino case though it really had the biggest mouth out of the deal, wasn't he.
Yeah, he was. He was the Viattally knew a lot about Joe, grew up with him, married his sister. Joe married his sister. Oh yeah, so their brother in law's and you know, Vitally knew about some of the murders that Joe had planned. He knew about Joe's gambling, he knew about Joe's loan shocking operations. So what do you got. You know, You've got somebody was your closest confidant testifying against you. And Vittally's evidence was like the keystone to
the case. The other informants, the other captains who testified, provided information about different segments of the case, but it was Vitally who sort of was the overarching centerpiece that kept everything together in cohesive. So that was a big blow to Joe and Battalion is now he's in the witness protection program too, he's out of prison.
Oh interesting now if you know these numbers, but it is a staggering amount of numbers and success by the FDI and authorities in general. The Banano family, new York City's biggest crime family. How many people went down. I'm not to say break it up into captains and soldiers, but what kind of numbers are we talking about in terms of Oh, you're.
Probably talking and easily anywhere between seventy five two hundred members and associates, including the boss, also very varied acting bosses. That's a pretty good estimate. The Genevie's family, it's had some you know, problems, but they're relatively cohesive. The Gambino family, you know, as you well know from the troubles of Godi. You know, I've had their problems, but they're kind of
like reconstituting. And the other families a little caseys, the Colombo's and the Bananas are really sort of, you know, trying to pick up the pieces and I don't probably I don't think very well. Yeah, it's just their it'll happen, It'll take years, but it's not going to be like it was yeah.
And the thing is what I found very interesting too is how everybody, not everyone, but there were a lot of guys. I guess the time has passed, or they feel free, or they you know, they're vain enough, they want to they want to be in a book. So there's a heck of a lot of guys come went forward that want to talk and write books and be interviewed. It's it's kind of interesting.
Yeah, I mean, the the hardcore guys like Basciano, I don't you know, I don't think they're going to do that. Joe Messina, who knows. I mean, I'll wait for Joe Messina to come knocking on my door, maybe to write the definitive story to fill in the blanks. But I'm not going to wait too long. You know.
It's just no, no, no.
I think I think he'll just want to sort of fade away. He doesn't need the money, you know, Joe doesn't need to mark it himself anymore. Some of the other guys, I don't know, you know you're going to see I think low level people, you know, might but hey, you don't know, you know, right, everybody's doing stuff about the mob. If you're not in the Mob. People are writing about the Mob.
You say, Messino did so so well compared to everyone else. Did you surprised that a guy like that or were you not surprised at a guy like that without all his abilities to come out so sweet out of where everybody else didn't well.
I was surprised that he amassed as much wealth as he did. He was shoveling in money from all sorts of places, and he had He was taking money from guys he didn't even know the last names were their first names for that matter. But he amassed you know, he gave the government ten million dollars in cash and goal bars, you know, so he had a store in his house. You know, it's an incredible I would be deadly afraid that the player was going to burn down. I never leave the house. But Joe had all this
dash and this was an incredible amount of money. He also had real estate which he was able to keep some of, and he had business interests, and he had a lot going for him. I was surprised at the volume of the assets he had, because none of the other bosses that we've seen are compiled anywhere near this in terms of just cold hard cash.
Now you say ten million, is that ten million? Was the find that the government said, you've got to give us ten million or we're going to take it.
Was what they forfeited after he got convicted. What they estimated is illegal take gains were ten million dollars and he got real or written a check for that. But they went they had this proceeding where they where they seized the assets.
But that is that is before he walked in and said listen, let's make a deal so they.
Could Yeah, it was Yeah, what happened was, you know, as I recall, maybe a little shaky on the timing of this, Joe got convicted. No, no, I think what happened was a Joe got convicted and walked into the judge and ever recall right, if they had a proceeding on forfeiture that afternoon, and the forfeiture came down, so you know they had a ten million dollar judgment against them.
Well, you know, he had a pretty good law He had a pretty good lawyer if he could because really what was with stopping them from taking much more?
Though, Well, he got a shadow council and that was this well known former prosecutor Ed McDonald in New York, who actually prosecuted Joe back in the nineteen eighties on some other racketeering case he had. But the quarter pointed McDonald's shadow council, meaning a secret counsel. Messino's regular council didn't know about it. And it was the shadow council that represented Joe in his negotiations with the government to
become a cooperator. And McDonald struck a pretty good deal. Yeah, you know, he protected Joe's interest and he there was money he had to give up, and then there was uh, you know, money that Joe wanted to keep assets they wanted to keep. You want to keep his mother's house, He wanted to keep his wife's house. He wanted to keep something for his wife and family so they could survive on some sort of income stream. So McDonald did
a pretty good job, I thought of protecting those interests. Yeah, Joe had a pretty good lawyer and the shadow lawyer, as we call it.
Yeah, I find it. I found it very interesting because I had not really heard of anybody that survived keeping as much money as he did and also his freedom and twelve murders, so he did wonderful really.
So yeah, well, Joe, like I said, Joe's the one that sort of comes out ahead if you want to call it that, on this whole sort of situation.
And Baciano has his uh in prison, his ethics.
He got his ethics, so to speak. Right, Yeah, the mom.
No one else did, he had no one else did. Yeah, that's incredible. Yeah, Tony, this is another great book with Vinny gorgeous, The Rise in Ugly Fall of the Ugly Rise and Fall of a New York Mobster. I well, thank you very much. How can people get ahold of you? If they have any questions or they'd like to just Facebook you?
Or I have?
Yeah, I have, I have. I'm on Facebook. Uh is Tony di Stefano or Anthony MD Stefano either one. I'm also I also have a website, Uh, Tony d'stefano dot com. Uh. And those are the best ways to reach me, uh, you know, through emails, through my website or through Facebook. You know, I'm happy to you know, field questions or you know, you know, the help when I can. I couldn't tell you. A lot readers do get in touch
with me for a variety of reasons. You know, they either want to know certain things or they want a new other sources of information? Uh and where can I you know, you help people. I have some secret sources, but those stay confidential. That's what you all try to do.
Well.
Yes, again, I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about your newest release, Vinnie gorgeous, and thank you very much, Tony, and have yourself a great eating.
Thank you very much, and thank you very much for having me and I hope you can do it again.
Okay, thank you, have a good night.
Good night,