VAMPIRE-THE RICHARD CHASE MURDERS-Kevin M. Sullivan

gradual and would not become known until it was too late. First, it was the killing of small animals and birds and the drinking of their blood. However, when these sacrifices failed to satiate his needs, Richard Chase would seek out the highest form of life, and the city of Sacramento, California, would react in horror to the hideous murders and mutilations committed by his hand. For those living in the quiet neighborhoods where the murders occurred, it was nothing less than

a time of terror until the fiend was captured. Vampire the Richard Chase Murders, including twenty three photos, is an in depth look into the life and disturbed mind kind of a killer, his family, and his many victims. The living as well as the dead, discover what it was like for the police and what a difficult job they had. Finding a killer they knew wouldn't stop until he was apprehended was a race against time and a series of

murders that would stun even the most hardened investigators. It is the story of a city under siege, held captive by the man whose appetite for blood could not be satisfied. The book that we're featuring this evening is Vampire the Richard Chase Murders with my special guest journalist and author, Kevin M. Sullivan. Welcome back to the program and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Kevin M. Sullivan.

of the more shocking programs. When I ask you for some details, and the details are obviously very important to this story, and those details are very, very very graphic. Let's start off right now with.

it also came with a lot of negatives. His mother, and I believe she's deceased now. She and her husband, Beatrice Chase and Richard were married and nine months later, you know, Richard was born and he was the first child to be born in his family. And it appears that the family had problems almost from the beginning, that is the relationship between Beatrice and Richard.

in depth. As far as his early years, he had to contend with some things in the home that weren't pleasant. But if you looked at Richard from the time he was a little boy on up until say high school, much of what you would see was pretty normal. He would play Little League, and he was a Cub scout, and he had friends. Now when he reached high school,

he began to change a little bit. And it's interesting because sometimes people that become psychotic later on or mentally disturbed, sometimes that does not occur until they are up in their late teens and early twenties. And so there is a question as to what would have happened to Richard had he not gotten into drugs when he was in high school, which of course added to whatever mental impairment or illness that he had. But he may have gone the way of mental illness anyway within his makeup that

it wouldn't necessarily be just the drugs. But I think the addition of the drugs helped him become quite strange when he was in high school. And I'm sorry, what kind of excuse me.

been a catalyst for his mental illness. Tell us about that.

up all the food. And Pamela Chase and I didn't get the interview her. I couldn't locate her. But most everything I'm getting is from the record of their home life and the testimony that they had given to the authorities. But you know, the father was a really strict disciplinarian and so they wouldn't but have so much when Richard was young, although there could have been some heavy handed

things going on. Uh, like I say, at the force feeding, and I think he threw when when Richard was eleven, the dad got very angry with him and maybe threw him up against the wall. Uh. And in fact that did happen. I think that was in connection with him accidentally uh losing the car key. So these Maine impressions on Richard. I don't know how comfortable he was being a child in that home frankly, but like this is just going to be a part of it. There's there's

probably things. It's like with Bundy, We're just never going to know about why he went this way. And and really, uh, the drugs in the LSD. There was a member in my family, my brother, he got into drugs in the nineteen sixties and uh, you know he was kind I know this stuff firstthand and he he he became very mentally unbalanced and uh he was diagnosed later as a

paranoid schizophrenic. And this is all connected with his makeup as well as his drug use in the late nineteen sixties and early nineteen seventies, but he never turned violent. So see, this is the aspect of Chase that we're looking at mental impairment and mental illness, and yet he went down the way of being a very diabolical individual. But we'll get in more to that later about how this is an offshoot and why this mental illness that he had drove him in that area. But there is

another factor to that. In high school, you know, he was normal inasmuch as he was a heterosexual and he wanted a normal relationship with a girl, but he couldn't perform sexually. He was impotent, and he had a hard time sustaining in erection, and of course this bothered him and the girls that he dated. Girls, they didn't dump him right away over it, but they eventually did. And I say in the book that whatever else, inferiority and insecurity and so all of that became even more heightened

during his high school years. I think he had I just check the book. But his first arrest for marijuana, I think that happened in I think in nineteen sixty nine, so he would be nineteen. He would have just been out of school. That was his first arrest. And I got a picture of the mup shot in the book is he's very young there, but it was very Again, it's going to be it's going to be the drugs, it's going to be his makeup. It's just there's going to be some things that when you look at his

life you'll see where all of this played apart. And yet even going down the road of mental illness, and I don't mean legal insanity. He was legally sane when he commit these murders with question, but he was also mentally imbalanced, very heavily mentally ill. He was just he was a very very strange individual.

the incidents, the murders, but what was he doing? And then I'm referring to obviously with the animals, what was he doing with animals at this at an early age that you know, again it's almost text well it's not almost, it's textbook in term of when we talk about profiling, so you know, tell us about that, what.

this because he thought he needed it. And you know, he would say strange things. Now, this would be a little, this will be a little later on. When the strangers first started to appear with him, it was in his high school years as he went down the way of drugs. But once he got out of high school, he became really People knew that he was strange, he was mentally unbalanced.

He wasn't killing an yet, he wasn't killing animals that early, but as things progressed, it when from small animals and then he started killing dogs and dogs became a big And it wasn't just killing the dogs or drinking their blood, but he would eat portions of the dogs as well.

Now he believed that. He told somebody once he said, you know, when these things started coming to the surface, that he believed someone had stolen his pulmonary artery, that his heart, though these were in his mind legitimate physical things that were going on. This is the difference between like Richard Chase and for instance, Ted Bundy. T they're both diabolical killers. But you couldn't look at Ted Bundy

and say he's crazy or he's nuts. But it's easy to look at a guy like Richard Chase and say, well, he's crazy. He's crazy. People don't say things like that. So you had a lot of very strong paranoia emotions. He was eventually diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic, although there were some that didn't agree with that. Without question, he

was deeply mentally ill. But he again, as we get into the story more, when he got into the murders, he was he proved by the actions that he took that he was trying to conceal what he was doing, which taught to planning and awareness of what society believed what was right or wrong, and that murder was wrong. So but he was a very very very demented individual.

they made him a mate. But you know, I see in the book because Chase was not drooling and babbling or whatever they thought he might make, you know, just he seemed for the few minutes that they talked fairly normal. Once he got inside with them, and his father helped him, uh, you know, with with you know, the rent. He Chase didn't work a lot, but he would work some, but his his father would help with that. And then they began to see how strange he was. And so it

didn't take people too long. You know, he would do weird things. I mean like for instance, they uh, they would uh have people over and you know, he would exchange. At one point he uh when he when he was with this couple, Uh, he would he had his own bedroom, but he boarded up the door, and then he went into the closet and not and knocked a hole through that wall so he could come and go. And then he would keep you know, boarded up. And so he

became very paranoid with them. Uh. It became he became past living with with with these folks, and they asked him to leave. He wouldn't, so they left. And then this girl's brother, uh Rachel, I think her name is Stadium. I don't have to look in front of me, but uh, she her her brother. And so if his friends moved in. They had a band, and Richard was always wanting to join in the band, and they would ask him not to, but he would anyway. They would have let's take some

girls over. He would stroll out in the into the room completely nude, and he was just always doing and he was stoned and he was high on drugs all the time. So that as this progressed through his early life, and of course finally he he you know, he had to withdraw from American River College. Was he just couldn't cut it, and you know, and so he would go back to his mother's house on Montclair, which this whole

thing is in just one section of the Sacramento. And you know, once he starts committing the murders, they're.

He would get in arguments with his mother and like when his sister would come over even when she had left home, and he would think that they were poisoning him. And he had slapped his mother once and pushed her down another time. Or his father would have to come over to try to calm things. And one time they got in a fist fight in the front yard, and and so he became very very hard to deal with. And when on the one occasion when Richard hit his mother,

she called the police and he left. He took off front and of course the officers came and they said, well, you know, we'll be happy to arrest your son, but you're gonna have to uh, she's you know, because they didn't witness it. They said you have to take a

warrant out for his arrest. So she didn't want to do that, so she called the Aquarium Effort, which is a place out there for where people can seek help for mental problems, so on and so forth, and so that pushed him into a road of going down that way,

and Richard Chase became very interested. He wasn't opposed to seeing doctors because he really, really really believed that these strange things that his heart was stopping, that pulmonary artery was stolen, bones were growing out through the back of his head. And of course he'd get in there with these doctors and they would, you know, they would write

their reports. I've been through all the reports. A lot of them are reproduced in the book, and you know, they just you know, he's diagnosed his PARENTO, he's schizophrentic, this, that, and so you know, he was willing to go down that road. Now. For a while, before these murders occurred, they had gotten Chase on some medication which was actually

helping him. And in a case like that, they are these drugs are designed they can't it's not that they no longer are schitzophrak or whatever it is, but it can keep some of these things in checked to where the improvement could be considered guarded, but that it could happen. And in Chase's case, there was improvement for a while. His mother said it was for two years. I don't see that in the record. It's not there. His father

said it wasn't two years. But the funny thing about it was is that the family was so burdened because, as I say in the book, everybody in the family of a menally old person pays a price. They suffer along with it a lot of demands from those folks, and there's a lot of heartache and things like that. So there's a lot of grieving that goes with that, and there's financial concerns that people can't work. There's a lot of strain on families that take care of people

like this. Well, here he's starting to improve. He was always just very, very thin. It was something he didn't like about himself. But he was so incredibly thin and he was able to put I think some twenty pounds on his frame during this period of improvement when they had him on medication. But his mother did not like the fact that it made him like a zombie, so of her own volition about doctor's orders, she had him

stopped the medication. Well, you know, when you got somebody like this and they're being helped by it, you know, you had to be off the wall to take them off of it, because there's no place to go if you take him off the medication. So he went back downhill. And this is not to say that this time of improvement would have continued on the medication, but she guaranteed that it wouldn't continue by taking him off. And to these two these are also reports, these doctor's reports where

they go over this in the in his file. And so from there he descended. Well after the incident where there was some violence, she and her ex husband moved you know him out to a house of really a small little cottage house behind this other home in that area. He was there for a while. Then he ended up on Watt Avenue in apartment twelve. He was there for a while, decided he wanted to leave, and then of course there's the by that time he's already killing animals.

In fact, the drinking of rabbits blood happened while.

is the next day. I'm not sure. I don't think they're sure. Chase injected himself with rabbit's blood and he nearly killed himself. He became really, really sick. So they came over anythinking to the hospital. He was you know, he was very very ill for a while. And of course he did that because he thought he needed it. See this is the type of metal illness that this guy was going through. And because nobody would do that

in the right mind. But so anyway, so this progression of killing animals and drinking their blood, and you know Beatrice Chase, I mean, you know, the Chase family had, you know, he had a couple of dogs. I mean, there was some dog and she had. He ended up killing all those animals. And before he killed the animals, she would catch him sometimes squeezing the palls of one of the dogs so hard, or squeezing its jaw, and

you know, just to see it suffer. So the precression went from just an odd individual to you know, staying far out things, to being you know, violent towards his family members, not exceedingly violent, but violent enough confrontation is physical, not you know, trying to kill anybody, to then being you know, cruel to these animals, and then killing the animals, drinking their blood. And of course once he was off his medication that was helping him that really there was

no turning back. He was just going to go down this road, which he did and he started killing humans. That was going to be the ultimate thing.

down that road. There's a lot of homeless people that are mentally ill, but they usually don't go down the road of violence. And even if they are too violent or too disruptive to live of families, they don't go out and commit murders. And they certainly don't qu out and commit the kind of murder I should say, murders that Richard Chase committed. It just doesn't usually go down that road. So everybody wants this occurs. They're wanting to take the doctors to task, and they're wanting to take

anybody else to task. Who let this guy out on the street. But the problem with all of this is people have rights under the Constitution. And I had a judge tell me once that I was asking to hold my brother longer. He said, listen, he's got rights. They attested, he's not a danger to himself or someone else. He's got rights, and he's right. So you know, they can put holds on people like seventy two hour holds, But I'm telling you, so nobody knew that this guy was

going to go down that road. There's a lot of strange people out there who are never going to harm anybody with the same diagnoses.

there's where we are a difference. But here's the thing that I want to say. I'd hate to be a person with mental illness in the future, going to have mental illness or have a family member as mental illness. This has nothing to do most vast majority of people that are mentally ill do not hurt anyone, let alone themselvesselves or everyone else. This is a person that happens

to be a killer who happens right it's aphrenic. I let's make that mistation because this guy has been Richard Chase is probably capable of what only a handful of humans in the last one hundred years of a capable of doing. So let's let's make that distinction. Because mental illness already has a stigma. We don't need, you know, I don't think mentally ill people need to be lumped in with killers who happen to have a mental illness.

there's other factors going on there. I know, most menial individuals don't do this. They are more likely at some point to perhaps take their own lives maybe, but not to go out and commit murders. But anyway, so this is this is where Chase was, and this was his background, you know, and up until the time when he committed his first murder. His first murder, of course, was nothing like the additional murders to come.

think Robinson Avenue. Again, I don't have my hook in front of me, but it's very.

Her husband was somewhere else, but but that but her brother in law or their son was an ouse, David Griffin, And so they carry in, uh some groceries, and Ambrose comes out and he's going to get the last bag, and Carol was I mean, yeah, I mean Gail Griffin

was holding the door. Carol was inside, and her other her son was inside, and all of a sudden, like a popping sound, a couple of popping sounds, uh might even sound like firecrackers, and Carol Griffin comes out in time to see her husband turn and fall and she thinks he's having a heart attack, and uh not putting two and two together. Real quiet neighborhood, you know, it's

real quiet around here. I mean homicides and they're they're rare, and you know, even though sometimes people have shot around, you know, as I talked about in the book, around the neighborhood, around the creek, and they're out plinking with their guns and people might not like that. Just aren't any homicides like this. So anyway, so you know, they're thinking he's having a heart attack, and they call the you know, paramedics, and they get there, pull back his jacket.

He's got a blood stain and he's he's losing consciousness. He did have a chance to fill his wife that he was shot. Well, she's still thinking he had a heart attack. Well they get to the you know it

did the bullet has just done too much damage. It's weird too, because when I was in Sacramento doing the doing the uh uh, going through the files that they had real evidence there and I opened the one thing and they had the bullet of Ambrose Griffin that had gone into his body and it had uh you know, uh mushroomed out, you know, from the impact, and and it was odd seeing that. Here I'm writing about this guy,

you know, getting ready to write about this guy. And uh. Anyway, but uh so you know, of course he dies and he gets to the hospital and he's he's basically dead on arrival and uh but there's no drinking of blood. This Chase just wanted to kill somebody. He just wanted to kill. He had been going through the neighborhood actually and shooting the Holmes the days prior to that. And

there was a lady named Peleski. Uh, she's doing her dishes one night in the kitchen and here because of the bullet whizzing through the glass and goes right through her hair, embedding herself in the wall or something, and there, you know, And then people would hear this shooting, and because sometimes people were shot around the area, they didn't think too much of it. But yeah, but she you know, she called the police or whatever. You know, they came

out and cut the bullet or whatever. And then but yeah, so and so he kills Griffin.

and fired it twice, one bullet, striking Ambrose Griffin. The shellcase seems ejected to the right. It's pretty normal. They hit, and of course he's trambling. They landed on his hood and while they're rolling off the hood, he's traveling down the road and he's picking up some speed now because I guess he saw Griffin ball. Well, they ended up landing like two or three doors down about eighty feet I think was the longest one, and the newscrew coming.

This was embarrassing to the police. But the news crew came and discovered these shellcase as they were trying to set up cameras the next day. One was in perfect condition. I've also held those of my hand. I mean the oh they were there, and one's been flattened, which it could have been stept on, but more likely a car ran over it. And so anyway, but you know, they did a lot of canvas scene of the neighborhood, it's just regular, uh kind of you know, organized but but

grueling sometimes police work. And they discovered that that that Griffin didn't have enemies, and so this is a modivelous crime. And the guy that worked with me, one of the guys worked with me, Bill Roberts, he remembers thinking, and I quote him in the book about that these things, you know, that they didn't even use the term drive by shootings very much, and that these things just didn't happen,

not in Sacramento. And uh so, yeah, everybody was shocked, but you know, they knew it was a twenty two caliber and uh but this wasn't one of the real diabac you know, diabolical killing. This is somebody just shooting somebody as they drove by, and it there's no enemies. They just didn't know what to make of it. And I know one person said that they thought, well, maybe it was just some kids shooting at signs, okay, and they didn't mean to hit this guy.

of something around his mouth. And he ran into an old high school kind of like friend, an acquaintance, a woman named Nancy Holden who was married. Name used to be Westfall. And of course he's exuding weirdness. He's filthy, but he's weird, and she's talking to him and wanted to get away from him talking to her inside the store, and she hurries and gets away from him. And as she's leeving the parking lot, he's trying to open her door because he wants to talk to her. She gets away.

She looks in her review mirror and she sees him walking towards the bank the back of the pantry market. Well chases with him in just a short time of committing the murder of Teresa Wallen. And Teresa Wallen was a state worker and she was I think she was working part time for the state, but she had a day off her husband, David, they've been married several years. She was three months pregnant. And he goes in her home.

He cuts to the right of the Pantry Market, doesn't go in Wallin's yard, goes down another three or four houses to the right and goes right around the front. And this is so bizarre, you think he walked down the street, but he goes starts cutting and fraud across the front lawn and the front porches of these other homes. Well, he crosses the couple named east Lick, which are like four or five fours up from the Wallins, and he, mister Eastley, gets up and looks at this guy. He's

just barely got a shot of him. Okay, So he goes down to the wall in Residents, tries the door of the door's open, and Teresa Wallen is coming through there with a bag. She's just house cleaning, and he shoots and shoots her two two times, and one time a grazer went through her wrist. I've got it in the book. But it wasn't until he shut her like the third time that it pierced her head and you know, was in her brain and she collapsed. She wasn't quite dead,

but but she was on her way. And uh then from that came the diabolical stuff that he did, which I've seen the I've seen the crime scene photos.

by that. So he leaves this scene of carnage committed in broad daylight, and he goes home and waits for the paper to be delivered. And there's a there's a guy. There's a there's a deputy named Ivan Clark who shows up at the scene. Now, i'van Clark was a hardened investigator. Bill Roberts doing well. They I think they both went through the academy out there, and then Carl Clark came out of that house. He was ashen. It was so horrible.

they deeply affected him, really affected this time. And he wasn't the only and he wasn't the only one. Uh. I can't remember the fellow's name, I've got it written down, but yeah, the husband would came home later. The officers were called he. In fact, when David Walling he was he worked he worked for a company called National Linen. I think that was he was training the guy that takes place. That might have been this last day, but

I can't remember. But he was training this this fellow. Well, they he trains him all day and he comes and they out we could go have a couple of beers or whatever. And he drafts home and he's going in the front door and it's dark and the music's on, and he flips on the porch light and he sees what appears to be oil stains in the carpet, and there's garbage strewn all over him. But that goes on.

Oil stains. Those are bloodstains. And he had actually killed her in the front room, dragged her body back to the bedroom anyway, so he's calling out for her. Their dog, Brutus comes up to him and he's acting strange, and he goes back in the bedroom and he sees his wife dead. He only looks at her for a few seconds, but there's no mistaking she's dead. She's got she had been cut down the middle and stuff was coming out of her and she just had, you know, some gaffly

stuff happ to her. So he runs across to the neighbor's house says, my wife's dead, and then he calls the sheriff. The father comes over. He called his father first, and then they called the sheriff's department. Sheriff's department comes over, the two officers come over. Ivan Clark ends up going over there. So everybody shows up. So he got this ghastly scene. Ray Beyondy, who is the commander of homicide.

He gets the call think around nine o'clock or something. No, probably earlier than that, but anyway, so he's called at everybody's there, and then he shows up, and of course beyond he knows from looking at it, and all the officers know that whoever did this is not going to stop. They're gonna have to catch this guy. He's just not He's not gonna go away. He's going to keep doing this.

And I got to quote in the book from when I think it was it was Bill Roberts and somebody else shows up there Beyondy makes a remark similar to that, they got to catch this this guy before he does it again. So, I mean, you know, the nobody'd really seen anything like this. I mean, these guys have been

to a lot of homicides. It's like this one guy said on the documentary that us always said, but it's not every day when you see that somebody becomes a murder somebody and then cuts them open and moves their stuff around. It just didn't happen so anyway. So that's on a Monday. So here we go leg work, everybody's working overtime. The city's getting just that area of Sacramento is becoming very unnerved that this could happen in you

know what, it's still daylight and she's home. It's a quiet neighborhood.

didn't kill them all. At the same time, he had parked his car at the country club's center. Oddly it was by a concrete planner sicken kind of out in the lane. He crosses over to Marywood, which dead ends up where the country club's you know, center is. He goes down a couple hundred feet to the house on the right, thirty two oh seven Marywood. The garage door is open. He gets into a there was no forest entry, so they're assuming he went in through the north into

the house through the garage. Daniel Meredith had gone with Jason to pick up some snow shoes because he's supposed to go with the family across the street up into the mountains. And while they are gone, he kills you know, Maroth and then he butchers her, just some strange things. He cut her eye out and cut her around the eye and left it sticking out. It just you know, it's just you just wonder it's just it's so so diabolical.

And he takes the baby and kills the baby. And then he takes the baby, and of course Meredith and Jason, I guess are still gone. Takes the baby and kills the baby there in the crib, takes the baby into the bathroom where he had taken Evelyn Maroth. And he sodomized Evelyn Maroth in the bathroom. And I say in the book he could do with a dead body what he couldn't do with a living girl, had trouble with sex, but he so, you know, And so here here he

is with a dead person. And then he cuts the back of the baby's head open, and and and because of the brain, man in the blood, and so they Daniel, Meredith comes back, and they come into it. Meredith is killed first with a shot to the head. Jason he's got a bullet wound later they discovered in the back of his neck, so he probably turned to run but was killed quickly too. Then they were dragged out of the front room for some distance. I think Meredith was

left in the hall. But anyway, so here's this other ghastly murder. But the good thing is is that one thing Chase was. He was a disorganized killer, and it was the chance meeting and hit. This is Friday, the twenty seventh of January nineteen seventy eight, the meeting that Nancy Holden had with Chase at the Pantry Market the previous Monday. Once these other murders occur, she tells her, I think it was her father, who was a retired police sergeant, about this strange guy. Excuse me.

believed Dawn also put two and two together. But it really was that orange parker I think was one of the big you know, one of the big things that convinced her as well. You know, obviously that chance meeting was very very fortuitous for this, you know, for this case.

So it was really a stroke of luck because he had been able to elude police, and so we're looking at he's committed to the murders of the Moroth family on Friday, and then you know, it was like the next day when things really started to come together, and when Bill Roberts was trying to locate this person that he had an arrest record, and what was interesting to Roberts was is that he had the history of owning twenty two's playing two automatic pistols, and so that's exactly

what was used in the murders. And of course, once they arrested Chase, then you know, they matched the gun immediately to all the murders. Plus there was a lot of forensic evidence. Of course, I mean, even if those to the time before the I mean there was stuff there of the babies and and there was plenty of

evidence even beyond the twenty two. But when they caught Chase and they had the gun, it matched all all of the murders Teresa Wall and the you know Maroth family and Ambrose Griffin, which was really good.

whole lot in there having to do with that. They already knew from the people on Bernice Avenue and who had seen Chase walking around for instance, they knew they were looking for a scraggly haired young man again with the orange parka but dirty and so I think I can't remember what the FBI, the like the evaluation that they did. But I can tell you from the records that the cops working these things, it had really happened

very quickly. The two main murders, Wallin and the Marath happened all within the same week, and they were getting a lot of reports of what this strange person looked like. So I don't know, to be honest, how much the FBI, you know, reports helped them because there was so much going on with just the evidence coming in from the testimony from the people that saw him, like a lot of people's I think there was probably one, two, three, maybe three people on Tioga that saw him right before he killed.

the phone. Ken Baker had acted like that he was, uh, you know, he had had some dealings with him, and Chase kind of got skittish about it and hung the phone up. So when they went to his apartment, they you know, he wouldn't answer the door, and so Bill Roberts went up to the manager's office to call while Ken Baker and Wayne Irie stayed there. Now, fortunately number fourteen apartment was vacant. They got the manager to open up and Ken went inside the next door apartment listen.

They could hear movement inside. So while Roberts is still up there, Ken Baker and Wayne Irie made a pretense of leaving and they were talking kind of loudly that you know they would come back, Yeah, but they're actually hiding. Days comes out of his apartment with the box. He's got that twenty two and a holster and a jacket

on so you can't see the gun. But he comes out and he's kind of and he turns to the right to go into the parking lot to get the ranchero, but he sees Wayne Irie two doors up or so, hugging a door. Wayne Irie sees him. He immediately steps out for a second, he's going to go back into his apartment, but he bolts the other way and he runs into Ken Baker. Ken Baker already got his forty five out, but Chase throws the box at him as he goes by. So Chase just just is trying to

get by him, runs right into Baker. Baker hits him in the head with the forty five and there resting around on the ground, and by that time Wayne Irie has gotten up there, and they you know, they they're able to get this guy on the ground, and you know Iri was going to kill him. You know, he on a documentary he said, once you said, uh, we I already decided if the baby was there, I was gonna kill him, but he you know, he's just not

you know, he's just not like that. He got up to Chase and he put the gun his gun, and Chase his fear or something told him, if he doesn't quit fighting, he's gonna blow his brains out. But Chase didn't stop. And that answer, Ari said, that's when you know, you know, we're not like these people. We're not cold blood murderers. So they finally subdued him. He had on him, Daniel Meredith Wallat and uh and and I think his keys as well. Now the keys, I think we're in

the bot or know what. The baby he'd already discarded the baby by that church in between the church building and this other building, which they discovered later on. And uh, but anyway, so of course he's arrested. Everybody knows that this is the guy. Chase will not admit to anything but killing animals and killing uh you know, birds or dogs or whatever. He he won't admit to killing humans.

His admissions to these things came later, of course, from all of that, came to psychiatric reports and uh, you know, all these many things, and they determined Chase was was you know, you know he was capable to stand trial. And uh so, uh you know, uh Ronald Docdorman was the main prosecutor's assistant, Al Loker. Al loc is a really nice guy. I didn't get to talk to talk to him, but I got to talk to Locer. He said, with Sacramento you know, uh, the the Sacramentary uh, Sacramento

County Die's office. So he's still there. He's still in that office. Uh So they they they made a great case against Chase, and and and and document really knew how to to do this fair salomy. Uh yeah, a fair of salami, which is Chase his attorney. He this guy had an uphill battle all the way and he wanted to yeah, and you know, it was just it was just a foregone conclusion that was not gonna go his way. But he he worked hard and and uh I've spoken to Paris, you know, on the phone two

or three times. He's he's a nice guy. But it was an uphill battle and he was hoping to save Chase from the death penalty, which of course he chased got the death penalty. But he took care of you know, you know things himself, and he ended up you know, killing himself in UH in San Quentin.

finally knock this stuff out in him. And of course he did cure himself, but not in the way he suspected, and he killed himself. But yeah, but he was strange. I mean, the doctors said to Chase once and said what are you thinking about right now? He said, normal things, And they said, well, what's on the screen in your mind? He said, oh, a seven forty seven jet liner blowing up. Just strange stuff, you know, just strange.

But the thing is is that you know, the planning, the evasion from from the authorities. But I thought another thing was too. Was there any talk of the sexual motivation being in another thing? To dismiss the notion that you know, he was insane and was was out of control and had no control of his behavior. Did that the sexual did that sexual motivation come into play at all? Terms?

cruel or evil. Richard Chase might be because a truly insane person will not try to cover their steps. You know that they might go out and commit mass murder, but they're making you know, I mean, they're just doing it. But Chase did try to conceal everything he was doing, and he showed some elements of skill at being able to do it because he didn't leave any fingerprints behind and he knew that the proper response when they asked him, did he do this? No, I would never do that,

so he knew. So Chase was cruel. Chase was evil, Chase was diabolical, but he wasn't legally insane. And that's the only thing Doctorman wanted to drive home, and he did. He just did it wonderfully, and the jury bought it and they did not consider him insane. And so that's fright at the deathminality.

that box, there's also a pale. There was a pale that that he had had there. That could be the very same pale. I'm just not certain, but that's what made those ringlets.

mind lack of remorse. That's ridiculous. But you know, decapitating the baby's head. Yeah, it's just it's evil, that's all. Yeah. The best thing is just to choc it up to a whole lot of evil, uh, coming from this one eminem, from this one person that is spreading a lot of terror in that in that area for a short period of time.

The picture of Evely and Morale, it's just it's never been really unfortunately, there's a picture of Teresa Wallen that has been released. Sometimes it shows up on the internet. I don't know how that happened, but it's it's been released. But most of the crime scene photographs, in fact, all of them, but that one picture has never been released. But it's it's gastly. And he had also stuffed dog feces in the mouth of Teresa Wallin and the investiators

for Scott that they weren't sure what that was. But he's just very very evil, very diabolical person, but legally saying.

outward appearance, they're like night and day. You never know anything that's wrong with Ted Bundy if you you know, but Chase, take one look at him. The guy's whacked. I mean, that's that's your first impression of him.

that it's this legion of thrill killers. And now you're adding the allure of fame and infamy and stardom and to a certain extent like Luca Manata, and what you have is combination of that phenomena in society anyway, totally over the top in terms of exaggeration, and these people doing again a crime that shocks the world, that's what they're interested in doing. So you know that that that is horrifying for people in fiction, let alone to realize

in true life. But I don't think anybody could ever say anything other than these people, to a certain degree, to a great degree, want to do the very very taboo, to experience what no one in what we would think in their right mind would want to experience. Yeah, And the only thing I can come up with.

they're just the worst of the whole breed. And and like I say, they're rare when they become I think when they become that diabolical. You have a lot of mean people in the world, but the killers in prison when when Chase was in jail, some of these people who had committed murder were complaining that they can't sleep because of what Chase had done and that him being there and they're thinking about it. Can you imagine that these were just regular killers?

they did, more organized, but just as diabolical. But here you've got someone that like Chase or something that just you know, coming into people's homes in broad daylight, very random and then just extremely lethal and completely diabolical, just very strange.

that well known. It really some reason it's not as well known as it's one of the most over the top, bizarre, fascinating cases too. That because like you say, they didn't know who who was behind these uh murders, and it really was like a case of criminal minds where they they know they only have so much time because this this seemingly evil person with no leads, no motive, is striking and and then striking again. So yeah, it was a really great book.

and right, uh yeah, it's it's just it's incredible. The terror is really uh you've captured that, and I think that's what people will come away with, is uh Again, the good old days weren't all that good either, so there's uh, we've got Yeah.

killer as this guy absolutely had the potential. If this is what he escalated to in a short period of time in a few months, my god, who knows?

would have killed again. He would have wiped out another family or something, but he would have eventually been caught. I don't think he'd lasted as long as as like Ted Bundy, but they were so no, it just no, but it's just uh, yeah, you could almost mark it down. If it wouldn't be for that chance meeting, he would have killed again.