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You are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good Evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. In this explicit first hand account, a biker who spent forty six years as a member of the Hell's Angels and Satan's Choice invites best selling author Peter Edwards into the
story of life lived as We've only imagined it. A kid raised by his father's fist on the wrong side of a blue collar town, Lorn Campbell grew up watching the local biker's ride past, making him wonder what that kind of freedom and power would feel like. He soon
found out. At the age of seventeen, he became the youngest ever member of the Saint's Choice motorcycle club and spent the next five decades living a life for which he does not ask forgiveness, only that his story finally be told and that his family finally understand what drove him to live the life the way he did, with moments of terror and humor, great sadness, and the simple pleasures of camaraderie in the open road. Unrepentant is a
book like none other. The book with that we are featuring this evening is Unrepentant, the strength and sometimes terrible life of Lauren Campbell, Satan's Choice and Hell's Angel Biker. Welcome to the program, and thank you to a Green for this interview Lauren Edwards and pardon me, Peter Edwards and Lauren Campbell. Welcome to the program, gentlemen.
Oh thanks for having us.
Good evening, Lauren. Yeah, good evening, Lauren Campbell.
Think with you on.
I Well, it shows that he is very much like you are. Yes, I'll try it in here. Good evening, Lauren Campbell, Good, Lauren, h still says whole time, so I'm not quite sure.
Anyway.
Welcome to the program, Peter and this congratulations on a very very interesting, unusual, unique and fascinating book. Lauren seems Lauren seems to have hung up, So I'm hoping he's just gonna call right back in and get in the queue. There seemed to have been some problem when he.
Was on HOLDAK and.
Well we normally don't have a break. But he'll he'll call back in. I'm I'm certain of that, because I'm sure he'll call back anyway. I wanted to ask you. I guess I'll ask some questions of you that specifically that really don't need the input from Lauren at this point. What compelled you to write it? Here? We do have Lurin right here. We'll see, we'll get him back on here.
Is this a.
Yes, good evening, Lauren. Sorry about that technical error.
I was hearing you, guys, but you couldn't hear me.
There we go, Well everything straightened out. Welcome to the program. And like I had said to Peter, congratulations on a very pressing and fascinating book.
Thank you very much.
Now I was going to ask Peter Edwards and then I'll quickly ask you, without you, guys, revealing too much of this incredible story. I'm going to ask the basic question of Peter, and I'll ask the same question of you. And that is what brought why Peter Edwards, Peter, Why
did you want to do this story? What you've written about organized crimes the last time I had you on your book Bendido Massacre, But specifically, why did you want to write this kind of book which is a lot different than any book that you've written before, in any kind of organized crime book that I've ever read. Tell us why you wanted to work with Lauren Campbell and this book book about the beginnings of the Saint's Choice
and Hell's Angels here in Canada. Tell us about why you wanted to work on this book.
Well, I think you kind of answered it, you know, like, it wasn't the way Learne was talking. It wasn't something I had heard before, and it wasn't it wasn't something I'd read before, and so it was neat to do something that was really fresh. I it took it took a while before I was I was convinced that you know that he actually would would be as good as I hoped he would be, And you know, he turned out he was actually better. So but it a lot
of people have have good stories. Learned had a great story, but a lot of people are afraid of telling his stories and learn wasn't afraid at all. I mean he it was very big on doing it as as as well as we could so that no one could say that that we held back or you know, didn't tell the truth or didn't give him their money's worth. And when I could really sense his commitment, I got pretty excited about it.
Right now, I asked the same question of you, Lauren, why of why on earth would you want to do this book? What are what is the real, most important, biggest reason why you wanted to write this book.
So you could read it? Then? No, the reason for it was I have been told through the years by my friends and family, you should write a book because I'd be sitting there telling stories along with other people, and I suppose maybe some of my stories were more interesting than anybody else's. And I'd heard that through the years.
And I was sitting with my friends here that we live with, Old Video and Elizabeth Sanchez, and we were sitting here and just the three of us having a pop and they said, two years ago, you should write a book, Lauren, And I said, okay, that's you know, just get out of jail. I did four and a half years in jail just prior to that, and I thought, what a good idea. You know, there's been other people tell me that, like I say, but they they just you know, it hit me, Yes, I should write a book,
and I did. I was looking for an author and in the end I couldn't have got a better author to write my book in Peter And anyways, that's that's what did.
You come to? How did you come to meet Peter and and know of his work and then make the decision to say, you know, I trust this author to tell the story.
Well, it was true. A friend of ours, Mary Liscom is her name, she's she's a photographer and writer herself. And I my wife and I had I just went to my heart specialist and uh and on the way uh home, we we met her, just coincidentally seen her and we went out to dinner.
Uh.
And we're sitting out in the patio at this place in in uh there, uh New Market, and I was looking for a writer and she said, boy, I know that I know the guy. I know the guy that'll want to write it for you. And it was Peter. And Peter covered our case, my last case in court. It was criminal organization case, big case and the actually the longest running trial in Canadian history, and he covered it coincidentally, and uh yeah, she introducess to Peter and
and it went from there. It was it was. Peter was a godsend, you know, I to write my book. He just was the man after I got to know him, and I had already read the Bandido Massacre, and that is what made me peck Peter. Peter never with the characters, you know what, I wanted my book to be about full characters, not just this person did that, that person did this. I didn't want that, and Peter was the man.
I read that and I seen how he was with you know, pretty bad characters, Okay, pretty rough and bad characters involved in the bad Detle massacre. And you know, he never run anybody down. And I've been a biker all my life and I didn't want that. I didn't want him to like. I wanted full characters, if you understand what I mean, Dan, I wanted full characters. And we made the deal. I wasn't going to lie. I
was going to tell the truth. And you know what, the interesting people I've met and it worked out well between me and Peter.
Peter and I now, Peter what we spoke of just before we went on air. Was that I had asked you, you know, basically I congratulated in the book, and I said, you know, this is not really like a memoir, and I'm glad you didn't call it that because people have the sort of impression what that is. In your response was that I have to I have a certain responsibility as a journalist. You've got ten nonfiction books, You've got twenty five years under your belt as a serious journalist,
So tell us what you have to do. Once you did meet Lauren, once you thought, hey, this guy's a real deal. But what did you still have to do as a journalist as your duty to make sure that you wrote an unflinching but yet truthful book.
We didn't really clear about our role. Like Lauren could could comment on anything, could double check the facts. But but on the other hand, i'd I'd be checking what he what he said, and I wanted his prison records. He got his prison psychiatric records so that I could check, you know, who I was dealing with. He also got his father's military records I got. I double checked what he was saying, because you know, someone can be likable, but you don't know what they're going to be like
under pressure, and there is pressure during a book. And so I was double checking him and and you know, what he was saying was turning out to be true. And there's sometimes one I'd have a couple of things and he'd add something else that would explain it, but it wouldn't It wouldn't make him look any better, but it would make the story more understandable. He'd make it. He wasn't shy about going into his motivation, and he
didn't He doesn't mind criticizing himself. He doesn't mind. You don't have to sort of tiptoe around and pretend everything's great. You know, he'll he can be his own hrsh's critic on a lot of things.
Right now, we don't have all the time that we really would have to have to really examine this. But I really liked how you included your upbringing and so of course how you were shaped, how you think your character was shaped. So tell us, Lauren, how it was growing up, where you grew up and the sort of life that you that shaped who you became as a teenager.
Okay, that's not a difficult question, but it's a good question. I grew up ruff. I grew up in what they call the ghetto in Oshaua, down in the South End. I was beaten a lot as a kid. Anything that I did wrong, I was beaten. I got sent to the training school when I was thirteen years old and I saw boy, Yeah, you know the story about the kids in the box. I thought that everybody was like I was. I truly thought that, you know. I became
in the training school thirteen and fourteen years. I turned fourteen and went to Covert Training School, then Bounmaville Training School. I turned fourteen. I was the rock of the school when I left. That's just a name that they give a guide. It's the toughest guy in the joint. And after I come out, I used to see motorcycles going by my front window. I lived downtown in Oshaua. That's where I was born and raised. Asha was a tough town. We had a lot of Boston clubs, and I fought
all my life. And you know, that's okay with me. I was told by my dad when I was eight years old, there ain't any fifteen year old kid in the Boston club that could beat my son. Okay, but I watched the bike clubs. I would watch them go by, and it was just beautiful to me. That's what I wanted, you know, that's the life I wanted. I seen the brotherhood. I seen them fight, and I fought all my life for what they believed in, and I wanted to be long.
I didn't have really much of a My parents loved me, but I didn't have much of a family life. They all loved me. My dad had thirteen kids, I mean my grandchildren. My grandparents had thirteen kids on my dad's side, and I think five on my mother's side, and they all love But you know, it wasn't really know. I was beaten a lot by my dad, not my mother, you know, my mother wouldn't do that, but by my dad. And you know, I thought every kid grew up like that.
I seen the bikers. I fought with the bikers. I stuck by them. I was only a teenager. And then when I was seventeen years old, I was I went to the President's home and fought a guy. Did I Twenty years later it's in the book, and I don't want to reveal what's in the book.
Yeah, you know, now, tell us tell us more us, tell us a little bit more about the event. You say you got in a fight at the well, tell us about that event and then what was offered to you, which, well, it was a.
Just told by that my friend that I grew up since I was a young kid, that I went to school with, was beat up by three guys. So I was going around this dance hall and I'm looking for these guys and I come out the front and here's the president of Satan's Choice and the two other guys that actually started Satan's Choice. And that's where it started in Oshawa. Talking to these guys, know, I hear one
of them say they want to fight. They want to go to Bernie Gwynon's house and fight because his basement was set up.
Like a.
Boxing ring. So I went over to Bernie and I didn't know him. I knew a couple of other guys through my family and that. But I said, listen, do you mind if I come over because these three guys just beat the shit out of my friend John, And they didn't. I founked out later that they didn't, but nevertheless Bernie said yeah, okay. So we went down, you know, and Bernie put gloves on with. There was two karate guys and one Golden Gloves boxer, and Bernie was ended
up to be North American British Commonwealth champion. You know, that's actually my longest running friend, Bernie Guinnon, and he started the choice. So he had to fight with the first guy and knocked him out. My fight was the second fight. The only rules were. Now keep in mind, Dan, I'm seventeen years old. I'm a pretty tough character, but I've never been involved in morzyo clubs before, so it's all, you know, like it's all alien to me too and romantic,
you know. So my fight was next, and I said, Bernie said, you have to wear running shoes. If somebody goes down, if the other guy goes down, you can't kick him, and that's my rules. Anyways, I'm a pretty fair fighter. So it didn't last any more than two seconds and one of the Hamilton guys I got on the ground. I didn't kick him, but the guy who Bertie fought thought I was going to. So he's up behind me and he grasped me by the shoulder, swings
me around after I've already dropped this other guy. Bernie seen what was happened. He swung him around and knocked him out cold again, and I swear to god, I thought he was dead. I thought this character was dead because his eyes there was only the whites of his eyes that I seen, and I thought, holy fuck, I'm pardoning my language. But I'm sorry. I'm not supposed to sweark got holy cow the guy. The guys did and
he wasn't. Then later on that night we sat and had a few pops, like the guys in Hamlin and us. You know, I'm not a member or anything. And I was asked that night to join Satan's Choice. They didn't know I was seventeen years old. But that night because of that, and that's in a nutshell what happened. And I said yeah. And I told guys later years and years later. You know, they they'll strike for six months or with the Hell's Angels, you you hang around for
a year and your prospect for a year. And I would joke only say to the guys, boy, I struck and it was the worst three three weeks of my life. You know. So that was or that we throw at each other. Does that answer your question?
Yes, it does, ye, Peter, Now you've been involved with these types of books and these types of cases as as a journalist and a nonfiction author. Organized crime and which includes criminal organizations which well, at least tells Angels
have been deemed the criminal organization. How interesting or tell us about sort of the moment that you did you understand that through Lauren Campbell you're getting the essentially and I don't know how much of that history you knew essentially, but the origins of Saying's Choice with Bernie Gwyna, did you just as you just mentioned, and then the Hell's Angels absorbing clubs like the Satan's Choice later on in
the history of outlaw biker clubs in Canada. Tell us about what that meant to you in terms of valuable information, interesting information and information you may not have known before and of course valuable as you are that type of journalist writing about these types of cases.
It showed you what across section there was I mean not not everything is a criminal organization. And one thing with Lauren it was kind of funny, was it. He said at one point that Satan's Choice was a lot of it was crime, but it wasn't really organized crime, like he kind of disputed the word organized, and so a lot of it is, you know, just sort of
the personalities. I think. I think that sometimes you're trying to figure out something from the outside and you don't have a clue, and then when when someone the explains
personalities to you, it makes it makes sense. I think sometimes people look at this stuff like a James Bond movie, where it's, you know, a big master plan to take over the world, and then when you hear what's going on, it's a lot more, a lot more human, like, a lot more you can understand it, you know, not from a business point of view as much as from a you know, human point of view why people are doing things.
I mean, one guy in the book got got strung up and he didn't die, but he got strung up and it was for not bringing a beer, which which you know he is embarrassing and it undercuts people, and it all makes sense when you get into the mindset of people at the party. But from the outside it looks like it looks pretty insane to string a guy
up over over a drink. But when you think of how the guy was embarrassing them publicly and the consequences of being embarrassed, then you can start getting into, you know, understanding why this happened. That's the sort of stuff you can only get when you're talking to someone who's actually on the inside. On the outside, you you know, you might see the guy dangling from the tree, but you didn't have a clue why you got up there, right.
And you know it's interesting too, is that there's not that much documentation. I know, I've seen a couple of documentaries about, you know, the origins of Satan's Choice and was interesting with that. You included in your book about a film director named Shabib information. I didn't know exactly who this guy was. Tell us about Bernie Gwindon, How
did he become the leader of the Saints Choice. Tell us a little bit about the history of that lorn, about the other other biker clubs that he drew from, and his and the rivalry with Johnny Sombrero. Tell Us tell us about the origins of Satan's Choice and Bernie Gwindon and how that all began.
Yes, it's to me, it's interesting, and I hope to other people it would be just as interesting. Bernie was was a Goldenhawk writer. The Black Diamond Riders were invited to Pebblestone Park I think it was called, just outside of Oshaua and on beknownst to the Goldenhawks, the Black Diamond Riders, they were cutting down trees and tree stumps for weapons and beat the snot out of the Goldenhawks,
and you know, the Goldenhawks weren't ready for it. So after that, Bernie Gwynon and Redshawk and carmen' neil, there was three members started the Phantom Riders. They left the Goldenhawks. Bernie was one of the guys that stood up to the Black Diamond Riders and they were a tough crew. You know, you can't say enough about them because they were a tough, tough crew. And anyways, things a different back then. But they started the Phantom Writers motorcycle club
in Oshawa then Shabibe. They wanted to make a just a national film board thing on motorcycle clubs, right, so they went to the Vagabonds and the Paradise Writers and one of them didn't have enough members, the other one didn't want to do it. I can't remember which was which, but they come to Bernie and he said, yeah, like, let's do it. So he went to there was let me see Toronto Twisters the plague. Oh geez, there was
four clubs. There's from Toronto. Let me think now, there's two clubs from Toronto, road Runners and the Canadian Lancers. They said okay, and they decided to put on the Satan's Choice patch to make this documentary. So after the documentary was made, it was only it was like seventeen or eighteen hours of film, but they cut it down to half an hour and it was a National Film Board. In fact, I've got it here somewhere, And they made that and Bernie talked the other clubs into leaving the
Satan's Choice patch on their backs. And it was like fuck you too. It was like you or Black Din writers, you can't. You can't hurt us anymore. That's what it was. So they kept the patch and that was the first four chapters and it grew from the book.
Group think Bernie likes in the sixties, but Satan's Choice was an earlier There was an earlier version with some young guys. They had been strapped to their patch. But Bernie liked that. He was looking for a name and he liked he liked the look of it in the name right.
Yes, yeah, you know about it, don't you.
Dan?
Anyways, Yes, that's absolutely true. The Bernie liked the name. He went to Don Norris, who was the first Satan's Choice that got wiped out by the Black Dime writers. Don was the first Satan's Choice, and he asked, on what you mind if we used the Satan's Choice name and the patch it was exactly the same patch, just a different material, And Don said yes, and the rest is history. We became all the chapters from then on. All.
Right, now, Peter, what was your biggest task with this as opposed to all the other writing that you normally do covering trials and then all the non fiction books and the research. Was there anything different here? And if it was, what was the bulk of what you really had to do here to be successful? In your mind with this book?
The trick was I mean, it would have been easy to write an eight hundred page book because there's a ton of stuff, but you know, we didn't want to scare people away with just too much, too many pages, Like the trick was boiling it down. You know, there were a lot of really interesting stories that if they sounded kind of the same, you'd have to take the best one, or you'd have to take stuff from different
years to you know, to have it flow along. And so the usually sometimes when you're doing a book, you have this this panic after you assign the deal that you might not have the information. This one, it was more just tons of information. I mean, we could have gone on for years and years working on this thing.
I'd talk to Lauren every week for seven or eight hours, and I'd go up to his place with about forty questions and you know, always by the end of it, the forty would be answered and a bunch of dire a bunch of new stuff, and then I'd you know, I'd have enough to to write twenty thirty pages a week.
So they getting the material wasn't a problem. It was more just trying to figure what themes to cover, you know, his you know, his family versus the club, you know, his childhood versus what it's like in prison, all these different things you had to had to cover. It was it was a great, great feeling to know that there's always material and that I didn't have to you know, argue with him were or you know, try and finesse
it out of him. He was he was working like he He learned the smart guy and he knew what we were doing, you know, what our job was, and he, you know, went at it like a partner. Usually I have to try and pry stuff out people right.
Right right, And and so what did you did you come away, even though you've written about bikers before an organized crime, did you come away with a better understanding, a more comprehensive understanding of what it takes to be a biker and why anybody would want to be a biker.
You know, you look at it less as an organization than there's a collection of people and there's a lot of things you start to wonder, Like it makes you wonder, you know, what kind of a father was I? Because you could see the influence of Lauren's father on him, and it'd make you think, you know what was I?
Like you know with my kids, it would it would kind of put you in that there but go for the there, but for the grace of God, go I. I sort of thing like you hear about people who had some pretty hard stories, you know who who had a pretty rough when they were they were young, and how they coped with it. Also it it it it impressed me how Larn's kept a sense of humor when you said, a lot of incredibly rough things happen, you know,
around them. So it it just show you coping to you know, like you know someone keep the sense of humor and everything's been taken away, and you know they've been stripped of things that they've worked for. It. It does get to you to think we're in a human
level about how people can can survive and move on. Hey, it also shows you how you can you can really get along with someone even though your your life isn't that much like their life in a lot of ways, you can still be friends with somebody when you know, on the surface you might not have that much in common.
Yes, certainly, certainly. Now, Lauren, the title of this book is Unrepentant, And so I've got to ask, obviously you agreed with the title. I don't know if you came up with it, but it's certainly representative of you and this book. I certainly understand why it's it's an appropriate title. But tell us why you were you felt this was an appropriate title? Unrepentant? And what does that mean to
people that just look at it? What are they supposed to take away from that when they see unrepentant and this life that you've lived.
Oh, I hate the title I was here to pick up now, I'm just kidding. I love the title because when you look at the book, I hope that people see all aspects of my personality. I do have a sense of humor. But during the days of the days when I was pretty harsh and I collected money, I
was a harsh person and I don't have regrets. In case anybody asks, I don't have regrets for the people that got hurt while I was collecting money, and because that is the that's the life, and I was playing the life in the life, I should say, and other people were playing the life, so if they got hurt, so be it. And I have no regrets. I have regrets in my life, but it's not when it comes to the people that were dealing drugs or the people that I was collecting from. I have absolutely no regret
or remorse. That's just the fact that I live a different life now. I've always loved my family. I've always been true, and I've always my family and friends. I've always protected them, and I have not had any fear towards myself. I've been shot insteaded more than anybody I know, and I've never I've never had any any fear over it, except for the ones that I love or close my family or the people that I love. And it's just the way it is now. I just live a different life,
you know. I'm with my family now. I cherish my family more than ever. And it's a different life.
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I did in the introduction is we spoke about that. This book is also to explain some things to your own family, and I guess close friends and critics. I guess people that think again. I use the word criminal organization because that's the language sometimes is a criminal organization? And can I every motorcycle club is fought against that stereotype, right?
Yes?
Can I just explain that for anybody that's listening. I don't really explain my life. I don't feel that I have to do that. But in two thousand and seven I got arrested. I spent fifteen months in jail along with three other people. In the end, and we fought criminal organization charges and they threw everything at us. It was the longest running trial in Canadian history. And I can't tell you enough how much they tried to throw that criminal organization thing at us. And we won. We won,
hands down. I said. Right from the first I told my guys we're all Hell's Angels. I told them, we'll fight this in front of a jury of our peers. This may sound goofy me saying this, Dan, It may sound a little bit goofy, and you know, but we did fight it. You know, a lot of guys wanted to to plead to this and please to that. But in the end, four of us fought it, and they threw everything at us, and we won. You know, I'm very proud of that. When I say we want, I don't.
I don't say it through bitterness. From now on, it's in my rear view mirror, so you have to anybody listening have understand that. But we won the case. And it was three months preliminary and nine months of every day going to going to court, a nine month trial. And when when they talk about criminal organization, we won that. No matter what anybody says about Hell's Angels, they are not a criminal organization. So you know, maybe I do sound arrogant, but you know, we want it and we
want it hard. We want it fair and we want it hard. The judge was fair, the jury was fair. And uh, you know I could, I could swear, but I won't.
I'll last this question. You know, you include in the book about the famous movie Wild, the Wild one with Marlon Brando and Lee Marvin, and you like the Lee Marvin character and the idea of freedom. And you used to see club members going by on their bikes and you and you thought that is you've envisioned that as a freedom and and power. Has this been worth it? All the years in prison? And is it is? I know you don't really say it with the book, but I mean I'm asking you in your life, was this
fight for freedom personal freedom? All the prison, all the all the tribulation, is it worth.
I explained the prison part. I used to you know, I've done years in prison. Uh you know, that's just a fact. I've done years in prison. Now, when I've been out of prison, I've sat there with friends and friends' children's as their children, and we used to laugh and joke about all of the good times we had in prison and the funny things we had in prison.
And you have to catch what I'm saying. Please, But I would notice after a few years, I would notice that these kids, they're in their teens or even less less than that, they would be listening to us and they would be looking at us like we're heroes. Well, we would never talk about the hardships in prison. I've been locked up for months at a time in that's twenty four hour lockup, and I thought, and I'd see these children looking at me. So I stopped doing that.
I stopped talking about how much fun we had at certain times in prison because these kids, and a lot of these has ended up going to jail. So I stopped doing that. And you know, I'm nothing special. I'm not a morality guy. Like you know. My morals are the same morals I was born with. I have very good morals. But I just see these kids watching it, and I stopped doing that. So when you say, like you talk about me in prison, I done my time, and I done my time. Well, nobody, uh, nobody screwed
with me. You know I won't let even at my age now, anybody uh screw with Lauren. You know, like I set after this last bit that I did, nobody screwed with this Hell's Angel. But uh, you know, being like after saying that, I don't like kids looking at life behind bars as a romantic or you know, any romanticism, because it's not you know, like I've I don't I've met a lot of tough people in jail and they've
cried over their children. Yeah, okay, so I don't know whether that answers your question, DN, but you know that's uh, I wish people from this book. People say, well, what's what's the thing behind this book? Well, that's one of them. That's one of them. You know. Don't think that you're that tough, you're going to go to prison and everything's going to be all right, because you know, I've watched people being shanked. I've I've actually stab and shot more
people that have stabbed and shot me. You know. But but don't think it's that easy, and don't think it's the life. It's not the life.
Well that's why it's only one percent of the people can gain membership in a club. And like you say in the book, you talk about in the book you and Peter that there's a lot of guys that don't last too long in the club. So the turnovers, Ah, Yeah, there's turns frequently.
Yeah, yeah, and there are always hus been there, always has been done. But it's changed, like the biker life has changed through the years, whether like you can look at it like it's changed to the good or it's changed to the bed. I think it's just changed. I think just life changes, like through the years. I was nineteen sixty six, I was a member at seventeen, and you know, I left the club two years ago and the brotherhood's still the same, but it's the clubs aren't
the same. Like the world changes, the world changes not, you know, and along with that club's change.
Yeah. Now, Peter, you were talking about the process that you used as seven eight hours at a time or a week pardon me, seven or eight hours a week of correspondence that you would turn into, you know, information that you didn't you would then edit down and like you say, try to gather in the stories that reflect what you wanted to say overall, or what you thought you you know, what you really did want to say.
Between you two, as authors of this book, tell us a little bit more about the process that you did and how long was this process? How long did it take from beginning to end? From meeting to publication. How long did this whole process take for you, Peter.
We first started talking in late August of twenty eleven, and then I guess, you know, it came out in late April of this year, and it would have been edited maybe four months before that, So pretty continual process. There was a little break in the middle there of about six weeks where it was just sort of the
information together, but pretty continual. When you know it's going well is when you actually are looking forward to the meetings, like I was looking forward to the meetings, and I was wanting to you know, you have all your forty questions answered, and then you think up another forty and you'd keep sort of going on, and you'd when he was I could see he was really working answering and them.
Then even if I didn't quite understand and answer all the way, I could ask it again and get a little better, you know, a little better sort of take on where he was coming from. I thought that was just, you know, fantastic opportunity, really, And then when I kept checking what he was saying to make sure it was true, but I didn't, you know, it all was true, Like he he was more explaining why he did what he did and how it felt. He wasn't disputing, you know,
saying no I didn't or anything like that. It was more here's why, and here's how it felt, and here's what it's like to be in this situation. So it it's it's pretty exciting really, Like in my job, you spend a huge amount of time chasing people around and trying to get them to if you say a little about something, When someone's really making an honest effort to to explain what happened, it's you know, it's the sort of thing that keeps you in the job and it makes it fun.
Right, right, did you in for a year and a half, that's what you said. Did you happen to in the course of this happen to meet any of the characters in the book that Nlauran would have been introduced you to.
Yeah, that was that was interesting too, you know, like that was you know, to meet people like Bernie Gwinn and then you've heard about that. That was that was neat. It was. Yeah, it's interesting when you could actually, you know, sit down and talk to someone about something and the you know, people just just sort of trying to put it in context of what it felt like. I think sometimes when you people do do books on this sort of thing, they forget that they're still writing about human beings.
You know. They turn it into you know, World War two and you know, try and make it all tactical this and money that, and they forget that that people are actually involved. You know that, you know, a lot of these are human stories. You know, there's a there's a human reason why people do things. And then and then there's things you wonder, like, you know, coping in prison,
how do you keep your head together? And it it's great when someone actually tries to, you know, makes a real, sincere effort to explain it to you that you know, you don't get that chance every day. And then also a lot of people, even if they try it, they're not bright enough to tell their stories and learns. The bright guy so he could experience, but he could think of things from a lot of different angles, and he could he could say, yeah, this is absurd, but this
is what I did. And he wouldn't he wouldn't try and you know, sugarcoat it. A lot of a lot of books on this sort of stuff that's someone saying you know, the devil made me do it. You know, I didn't really mean to do it. All the bad people made me do it, and learn would just say yeah, I did it, you know, and there's something we're honest about that. Then people keep doing something, getting caught crying and then pretending that there's a bunch of bad apples that dragged them down.
This is a question I'll ask both of you, and you could answer it first, Peter, because I think you might have a different answer and obviously a different perspective. You've covered a lot of times in the newspaper in Toronto, Toronto Star, and whether it's a Toronto Star or the National Post, or it's Winnipeg Free Press, or it's anywhere
in Canada. It's not like the Satan's Choice and How's angels have gotten an easy ride in print at trials and their depiction, the newspaper's depiction of these motorcycle clubs. Have you I've saw you on Canada Am and certainly that was there was no flack on there. Have you gotten any resistance at all given that kind of coverage historically in Canada for this book, and especially the tone of.
This book, I think a lot of people sort of in all sides of it like it, and a lot of people on all sides of it really don't like it. I mean, I know that. I mean I'm friends with Michelle Always, the reporter who was shot in Quebec, so I know, I know, bad things happen, like I'm not I'm not naive, But then you know it it was
a small group of people that did that. It wasn't you know, every every Hell's angel, and so I think it's it's kind of odd, but you know, in a way, we're working away on the book and you have to blank out what other people are going to think because you're trying to make that book almost its own. It sounds kind of corny but like a living thing, and you don't if people don't like it, they don't like it.
But you know, I think we were here. It's it's a real honest effort, and I think it's an extremely honest book. And I don't think we tried to make it this way or that way, just tried to make it, you know, honest and entertaining. And you know, if you don't like it, you know, go read another book. It's heard of my.
Feeling, no but I'm what I'm not. I'm not saying you like I'm not you, but I'm not saying that you thought you thought beforehand. I'm talking about resistance now that because you're doing really well, is a question. I already know that this book is doing really well as well accepted, but I was asking the question, has there
been any resistance? Has there been any surprises? Has there been in terms of you know this this Like I say, I'm surprised that there would be no resistance, but it has there been any resistance at all?
Some people were even afraid to go to the book launch party. You know, I was telling jokes about no colors, and then some people chickened out on going to the party, like they thought it was going to be Saint Valentine's Day massacre or something. So, you know, like it's sort of funny, but the there you interesting just how people read it. Like one thing that really hit me was how many women liked it. I usually when you're working on a book like this, you assume it's mostly for
you know, for men, and this one. A huge amount of the contact I've had on the internet or people who've been approached me about it and wanting to talk about it. Are a woman and it you know that that's kind of I found that fascinating. I think smarter police like it because they like to get into the heads of people. They deal with people who want everything black and white. You know, then they won't like it.
I mean, one thing, I think when people talk about drug trafficking, I think anyone who buys the drug is part of the crime, not just a person selling it. And so it's you know, there's enough blame for everybody there. So you know a lot of things I don't really
see is this side or that side. And then sometimes people get upset with you when you they want the world nice and simple, you know, good guys and bad guys, and we're victims and they're making it do things and I just don't see the world that way.
Well, you know that's good. Obviously you wouldn't be able to write this book if you did. But what I'm saying is like Canadian media is not very open minded about that. When I say, when you're in a trial and you're supposed to be you know, innocent, they'll proven guilty, and you've got these labels and depictions and and then charges like a criminal organization. I mean, you know, so people you know just may tend to, you know, think
on highly of motorcycle clubs. That's all, you know what I'm saying.
So yet I am a lot of people will write about them without internalism. You're supposed to try and approach both sides. You know, why did you do this or what did you think? Ken Sure, it seems like one area where you don't really have to approach both sides. You can just you know, make up what you want or put in what you want, you know, and I can. I mean, some pretty terrible things happened in Quebec, and I can
understand that. You know that people are her upset, you know, and that's you know that that makes sense.
But jump in there more than upset, and I disagree with any of that. I disagree with that when what's the name for it, when you shoot somebody from the outside of a house for your buys or whatever, drive bys? I disagree with all that. But I have to jump in there and say say what the Peter said about? Oh, what the hell was that you guys were just talking about? When the criminal org? Jeez, I can't remember what it was now. I just sorry, I lost my thoughts.
Well, let me ask you a question while you gather your thoughts, Peter, thank you. Has been the impression of your friends and especially former club members and existing club members to this book? So far, it's been released, like you say, in April, so a little ways away.
So there is club members that I've got feedback from that that don't like the book because they don't like what I say about this and that. But I haven't really in my opinion, I haven't really said anything bad about any of them. I wouldn't have been around for forty six years if I didn't love the life that I was leading. And I actually loved the life that I was leading. My house not that good now and
that's why I left the club. And if that, if that wasn't so, I would have still been with the club.
But you know, what does Bertie, what does Bernie Gwindon think about this book?
Bernie Gwynn is my longest biker friend ever, and he loves it. He loves the idea that along him and along with the other club members that are still in the club, loved the idea that I've written a true account like this. You know, nobody contests the fact that there's been criminals in the club. I was one of them then, and I was a pretty strong character when it comes to backing things up. I was very very violent all my life. I don't apologize for that because
that's just the way I was. And I fit right into the Satan's Choice when I started with Satan's Choice. I'm an extremist. I'm extremely loyal, and that's me. But most of the guys that I've met through the years, contrary to popular or believe, are not criminals. And they may be tough individuals, like you know, most of the most of the one percent clubs are tough guys. They're tough guys. They back up what they what they say, but they're
not criminals. Like a criminal organization is laughable to Satan's Choice in Hell's Angels, it's laughable. We we have to laugh at it. You know, they're the government has uh depicted them guys as criminals because or a criminal organization. Because there's criminals in there, very tough guys. There's been deaths, there's been uh, you know, violence, but that's uh, that's sticking up for what you believe in, you know, frontier justice or whatever you want to call it.
But you know the thing is that a lot of people agree with you. I think they say, hey, listen, if you if you're not dealing with them, that you're not involved with drugs or big deal, maybe drugs should be legal anyway, it's prohibition. So a lot of people can get around that. There's you know, I've seen it personally that people don't have this disrespect. Nobody's spitting on any bikers as they ride buying their motorcycles or you know,
shunning them. So despite some people might have a certain attitude towards them, but it certainly kind of keep it quiet. But what I'm saying is that some people think it is some people, because.
Based on straight people more criminal than the bikers that I've seen. So it's made guys like me proud of who we are. I don't try to be more of a criminal during my criminal life. I've not tried to be more criminal because of what I've seen, but it made me so proud of who I am. Seeing criminal behavior within the police force and I'll argue with anybody, you know, I will argue with anybody when it comes
to that topic. Well, let me ask you this one tough question, and that doesn't make me better or it doesn't make them better, the police force or you know, so so called straight people. But I've seen so much criminal, criminal h stuff from the police forces that I've been involved with and in a any more or any less than than bikers. So you know, I'm happy being who I am.
The thing is what people really are fascinated about, and that's how we get to a book, and people are fascinated with the book, and in a program like this called true murder, is that some people look at the murders of whether it's not so much innocence just other well, yes, in a period and so you know, especially there.
Has been innocence killed during h you know, during bikerdom or or even police forces, there's been innocence killed. And me myself, me myself, but anyways myself, I disagree with any of that. You know, if there's been bombings or or shootings, drive by shootings, and innocence have been killed, I disagree with that. You have to get with me and sit down for a couple of hours to understand what I mean. But you know, I I don't run
down anybody. I'm not trying to say I'm better than anybody because I've done a lot of things in my life. I've heard a lot of people and you know, so be it. But I just disagree with all that shit. Can I say?
Shit?
Sure?
All right now tell us Peter, and then I'll get you to also answer this question too. What exactly did you want to be able to convey to an audience with this book? What is all included in this it's I know, we talked about the history of the origins of Satan's Choice and Bernie Gwyndon and Johnny Sombrero, very amazing stuff. And then of course later on in the book is the Hell's Angels and the Satan's Choice again like I mentioned, and being absorbed. All of that is
covered in there. Overall with the book not a moral message, but what did you want to because there's no real moral message? What did you really want to convey that you didn't find in any other book and really wanted to convey in this book, Peter? What did you really want it?
What it wanted was an honest from the inside book about what does it feel like? I mean, one of my favorite songs is like a Rolling Stone by Bob Dylan where he sings you know, how does it feel? And a lot of things. You know, you'll know what happened, but you still don't really know what it's about. And you want to know he can see all the action, but you don't really understand it. And so I wanted something that, you know, would tell me how it felt.
You know, what does it feel like when you do this? What does it feel like when you're locked up? What does it feel like when you know extreme things are happening? Just sort of what are what are the emotions? And you know, what pushes someone to to to do certain things? And so I wanted the factual stuff. You know, obviously we had to have it in there, but I didn't want a dry history book about you know, in nineteen sixty five, this happened in their X amount of members
and that's all there is. I wanted to know why did people feel the need to come together, Why did people feel the you know, the push to do this and do that, because a lot of times we forget that these are actual human beings, Like it's not cartoon characters. A lot of times it's it's portrayed to cartoony. Really where you forget that they're they're human motivations for things.
And what And Lauren, the question to you too is you have talked about your entire life from growing up, what shape you, your dad, the lifestyle, the split up of your parents' prison. But what did you want to really convey? What is the gem of What did you want to explain and convey in this book that you hadn't in some of the telling of the stories that you had. What did you really want to be able to say with this book through this book?
Oh, I'm glad you asked that. Yes, the book is from the start was make sure you know what you want in life. And there's a lot of people that want to be like me. They've seen motorcycles go by, you know, a hundred motorcycles go by at once, and it's come und all of that, and I wanted people in this type of life, not just biker but this type of it's a rough life. Be sure what you want. You know, in any life, just be sure what you want and if you get into this. It fit for me.
It really did fit for me because I was comfortable all the time I was riding. And I still write. I still write every day. I went for right today for an hour or so, and I just that's my life. I love doing it. Rough people. They're rough people, rough around the edges, and I enjoy riding with them. I enjoy being with them because they actually are the softest people in the world. These these bike bikers are the softest people family wise and stuff like that, but they're
the toughest people in the world. Make sure what you want because you're going to go to jail, You're probably gonna get divorcess and and all of that. Like you're just that's probably and you're probably you might get shot, you might get stabbed. But Jesus, enjoy it while you're doing it. You know, don't look, don't look for trouble. But if trouble comes to me, I'm there. I'm there. They Get it on is the word for me. You know. I use that to my friends and my enemies. Get
it to something. Non you know, I won't swear.
Okay, Dan, Yeah, okay, okay.
Anyways, you know, I say, get it the hell on. But if it's not your life, that's what I'm That's what I'm trying to get it across in this book. And I wanted full characters, which Peter has done. Like, it's just I wanted it edited that way with full characters, not this person did that, and that's it. I wanted this.
Person character.
That and give a little bit of his life. And that's what I've read so many biker books that it makes me sick when I read them because it's about me, me me, me, me me, and I'm not about that. I haven't got that kind of ego to do that. I wanted like the characters that I met during the years. And that's why when people said to me, you should write a book not about me, Like I'm telling us stories about my friends that I met. Most of them are dead, you know, and I accept that most of
them are dead. There you know a lot of them were my best friends and they're dead. But portray them in this book. Peter as rounded characters and he did that. He did that. I'm just grateful.
Yeah, I want to I want to commend both of you guys combined, you guys have made a unique team. Again, Peter is right, because you've been more than forthcoming, more than candid. You were there, you have your privy to the information and again, like you said, a Kennedy, this is like not as unlike a lot of books. There's a couple of French Canadian guys rattling off that have written a bunch of biker books that yeah, we all know who those guys are, and then like you say,
the guys that have been snitches. So so this book is completely different. You're getting a completely an overview. And Peter has brought the ability of right from the very beginning of drawing the character right into your life. And so I don't know if it explains it, but it offers. Yeah, you just you just get in for the ride, and it's an interesting ride, and it's a fascinating story. And I want to congratulate you, gentlemen on a great book. Unrepented.
Thank you.
And I imagine you guys are having a lot of fun doing all the interviews. I know this book has done really well on Amazon with hot new releases, and I saw you guys just recently on Canada Am so, so it must be a lot of fun for you Lauren especially.
Yeah, it is, and that's exciting where and just doing that thing with Peter, like doing all this with Peter and becoming friends has has meant a lot to me.
It means a lot to me too, Like, it really means a lot, and I am some of the situations you get in that are sort of fun where I am. A couple of weeks ago, I met a police officer, retired police officer, who arrested learning he you know, just sort of interesting to hear the same story from from the other side, you know, from both sides of the gun. I have both guys explaining what.
Them and it felt like it was both sides of the gun.
Yeah. Yeah, you don't get that very often, you know, where you know, both sides are telling you and they're smiling away and doing their best to explain it. And yeah, I'm hoping that guy shows up when we're signing books on Saturday.
Yeah, me too.
So where's the next book signing guys?
Oh in new Market on Saturday noon to noon to five chapters kind of chapters?
Ye great, Oh, good luck with that. Those are always fun. I love that. I love meeting people and letting them know about a story that they might not and about but it's in good to see friends, so it's really nice.
Yeah you anybody interested always welcome.
Absolutely well. I want to thank you. Gentlemen for first off, a great read and secondly a really good interview. And I want to thank you very much. And uh and thanks Marn for kind of taking some of those I kind of had to post some tough questions for you, so.
I know you that's okay.
Anyway, I want to thank you.
Good interview. Pardon me well, good interview. Hey, I enjoyed it.
Oh, thank you very much, gentlemen. You have a good night. For those listening. You've been listening to Peter Edwards and Lauren Campbell and they're the authors of Unrepentant, The Strange and Sometimes Terrible Life of Lauren Campbell, Satan's Choice, and Hell's Angels. Biker. Thank you very much, gentlemen, and goodnight.
Thank you night, good night.
Okay, we're STI here.