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Quiet Host Radio You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about him. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The night Stalker VTK. Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
This is your host, Dan Zupaski, for the program True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime History and the authors that have written about them. On November thirtieth, nineteen eighty nine, in Florida, a man was shot four times by a naked, heartfaced blonde prostitute. He suffered a slow, agonizing death while the woman stripped him of his value.
Quiet Host, you are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written Abultium Gasey, Bundy, Stammer, The Night Stalker DCK. Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanskidising.
This is your host Stan Supanski for the program True Murder, The Most Shocking Killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them.
Pardon Me.
On a moonlight night in November nineteen ninety seven, fourteen year old Rina Urke went to a party with some of her friends near the idyllic waters of Victoria, British Columbia. She never returned home. A week later, her body was found by police divers and eight teenagers, seven of them
girls were arrested. Two teens, Warren Galawowski and Kelly Ellard, were charged and eventually convicted for their role in a vicious and unexpected crime, and Under the Bridge author Rebecca Godfrey unravels the haunting, compelling tale behind this terrible murder and the long, often bizarre trials of the now notorious
Kelly Ellard. Drawing on exclusive interviews in six years of research, Godfrey for reveals the complex story behind the headlines, offering readers a vivid portrait of suburban teenagers, persistent detectives, and stun parents caught up and transformed by a Canadian tragedy. Under the Bridge, the true story of the murder of rena Vert with my special guest journalist and author Rebecca Godfrey. Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview and
welcome to the program. Rebecca Godfrey. Hi, sorry about that mistake at the beginning. I don't know how that file got under way, but I'm hoping we have no more glitches for the rest of the show, and I apologize now. First off, Rebecca, I want to know what made you decide to write about this particular murder case and what year did this murder take place?
And the murder took twice in ninety seven, and it may not be so familiar to your American audience, but in Canada it became sort of our OJ Simpson and it was frontage news and a huge story, mainly because you know, usually, as your introduction mentioned, see the people associated with grizzly murders or men, and you know, the Bundee Dahmer type. And this was these very you know, attractive, fresh faced young girls charged in a very grizzly murder.
So it became a huge story, and it happened. I was living in New York at the time and read about it in the New York Times, but it happened in my hometown Victoria, in Canada, where I'd grown up, and so I felt some connection or interest and it was also drawn in because there was so little coming
from the teenagers. It was written about a lot, but the teenagers weren't talking to the media, and so I was really a mystery of a true murder, mystery of what had happened, and we had very vague media reports. So that was what got me interested.
Okay, so you read in New York City at the time, but this is your hometown, so obviously it struck home. I mean, this is something you could relate to. Now is tell us about what is the city where this story centers around.
We mentioned it.
I know where it is, obviously, but for our American audience, what is the city where this story centers around and what kind of community was it?
And it's on the Star the west coast of Canada, and it's Vancouver Island near Washington State, and it's a very extremely beautiful islands. It's you know, main source of income is from tourists who come to look at the gardens, and it's very There is a British heritage, so there's you know, tea rooms and double decker buses, so it's
very charming on the surface. Having grown up there, I know there was also a kind of David Lynch like weird, weird side to it, and there's been some strange murders before. So it's a very you know, there's a rainy, kind of gloomy place, but also quite quite beautiful. The murder itself happened in a community. You know, it's an island, so it was a community near near the water and a pretty sort of middle to a working class neighborhood. But you know, this is the first murder a lot
of the detectives had worked on. I think this was, you know, a teenage girl hadn't you know, been murdered in the town maybe in ten years, So it was it was unexpected and that's again why people were so shocked by it. It was in Toronto, you know, an urban city. It's a very low crime rate town.
Sure.
Now, the central figure in this tragic story, of course, is Rena Work. What was her family life like and from all your research and how old was she at this time?
Tell us tell us about Rena Work.
She was fourteen and having a bit of a rough time. She was in you know, a girl that didn't really seem like she had found her group. She wasn't getting along with her family. She had run away several times, which is why when the police heard about the case, they initially didn't investigate because they thought she was missing. You know, when her parents reported her missing, they just thought, oh, she'd run away, and they didn't didn't look into it.
So she had I was having time. She was very sweet, not violent, just sort of lost and looking to find some group where she belonged, and she became sort of drawn and attracted to this tougher group of girls.
Was she originally from the island or she had moved there or was there a change of schools or something.
No, she had grown up there. Yeah, her her family had a background from India, but they her her mother was born in Canada, her dad had immigrated.
So were they an old world type family though despite not being from you know, not necessarily obviously being Canadian? But was there explain explain the the was it just normal fourteen year old angst that she was dealing with her parents or what were the problems? So elaborate a little bit on why she had a little the problems with her her family and why did she not fit in.
Yeah, I mean I think her family was more traditional and you know, serious values that like her view and no smoking, and she was meeting kids whose parents were more relaxed, and so she there was conflict with her family there. She wanted to loser rules and her family were jahopa as witnesses. I don't know how you know how much that played into it too, a sort of culture class and rigid, rigid rules. So but she had very loving grandparents and aunts and uncles, the sort of
extended family that she was close to. She lived for a while with her grandparents, but at a certain point she you know, just clashed with her parents and went into a group home with girls from taffer backgrounds.
Okay, so she made it to a group home. Did she have any did you have any run ins with the law at all? And how did she have run ins at school? How was she as a student? Just as a student at school.
I think she was probably a good student, but she she was overweight, and you know, I don't know if her race played into it, being East Indian, but she was sort of picked on and teased at school, so she stopped going to school. So she was, you know, a misfit and not the popular kid at all.
Okay, And so at this fourteen years of age. When we're getting round to this story, we'll say go back to maybe just previous to that, maybe the year before or preceding this whole terrible event. What is happening in Rena Virk's life. You say she's a misfit. You've described her as that not really fitting in, overweight, maybe some self esteem problems, East Indian background, and that sometimes open
to ridicule for some people. Traditional family, where she's at odds with her family because of their religious background and maybe even their cultural background. Tell us what happens in that the last six months or the preceding six months before that, what happens in Rena RK's life. You would mention that she's meeting a tougher crowd. Tell us a little bit more about some of the relationships that she's having.
I think she was very desperate to have friends and with finding that difficult and she I mean, that's part of what made the whole story so heartbreaking. Is the final night of her life. These girls found in her to a party and she thought they were finally inviting her to a party, and actually they weren't. Had planned to beat her up, So you know that was her her search was to find a group of people that liked her, and she adored and started vitalized this group
of girls. At that time, I don't know, you know, if you remember, but ninety seven in the pop culture, it was a lot of hip hop culture and kids is you know, all races kind of emulating American gang culture, and so these suburban girls were all sort of pretending they were gangsters and acting, you know, wearing the baggy pants.
And so she was going doing that and and you know, painting her nails blue and talking to saster talk and yeah, and then she met these girls and really became fascinated with them and tried to be friends with them and ended up doing things that just infuriated them. She stole, i mean, very petty teenage girl things, stole a girl's address book and started calling people in that book and telling, you know, saying gossip. And so this set off this chain of events.
Okay, let's go back a little bit, just give us a little bit more background for people that are following the story that don't know the story completely. Now you've mentioned that she's maybe you know, hanging with a tougher crowd. Let's introduce some of these characters, So you can describe some of these characters that are in this story. Here, let's start with Warren Gliwatski. What was what was the background and can you tell us what can you tell us about Warren Gatski?
Well, Warren, actually, I mean we can get into it more. But the girls that Rina met initially didn't include Warren. Warren didn't even know Rena, but he was sort of in apparel, you know, sadly in a kind of parallel stage for her. At the same time, he was also kind of lost, and he had moved to Victoria recently. His dad and mother had split up. His dad had taken him to Victoria, and his dad had met a woman from California and had decided he would go live
with this woman and leave Warren in Victoria alone. So Warren was living with a friend, you know, sleeping on a friend's place, and his mother was an alcoholic, so he didn't have any contact with her. But he was much more than Rena, very popular, very charming, really had that sort of Justin Bieber. I mean, he really looked like Justin Bieber, kind of that androgynost cuteness, and he was extremely popular kid.
What was his.
He went by a moniker himself as sort of a hip hop moniker.
Yeah, they all kind of be hip hop names. So he we went by Warren g in the California Rapper.
Okay, now Warren Warren Glowski, Warren g He was a little bit older, right, yeah, yeah, okay, Okay, So now tell us the posse that Rena Vike was trying to hang with, and maybe you can introduce these characters.
Obviously there's Kelly Ellard.
But explain the girls that Rena Vike first met. I guess together, get the chronological order for audience, which girls that they meet, tell and then tell us about the character of that that one girl, and we'll proceed with the other characters they're in this tragic story.
Okay, I mean, first of all, I just you know, in Canada there's a lot that you have to change the names of anybody who's charged as a minor, so these aren't their real names. That there was the main girl. There was a group home called seven Oak, which was for girls that you know, needed its temporary shelter, girls that have been kicked out of the house, sometimes waiting
for a foster home. Most of those girls probably all of those girls had also been in and out of the juvenile detention home and had some kind of you know, criminal background. And the main girl there was who I call Josephine Bell, was a really interesting character. I don't think anybody, you know, your audience probably come across this type of character. But she is accepting, you know, maybe a noir book. But she was very beautiful, blonde, you know,
ballerina kind of looks. But she had a really strong desire to be a gangster, to be tough, to be, to have you know, she literally had minions running around. She would order them to go shop with for her. She really loved this idea of her reputation.
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Was considered you know somebody and people admired her and were frightened of her, and part of that was a bit fantasy, but part of it, you know, she she was She did have a lot of authority and kind of charisma, and she would steal cars and you know, she's just kind of quote badass, but at the same time very cheat and blonde and attractive, so she was sort of them one that Rena was drawn to. Then her sidekick was a girl I called Dusty, who was
from a large family. I think there was seven or eight sisters, and she had been kicked out of the house and been living all over the place and left. She went to live with one of her sisters and stole cars and there was just too much trouble, so they sent her home and that's she ended up in
this group home. So she was not quite as sort of crazy as a Josephine, but very legitimately tough, quite big, quite strong, constantly getting insights with people, and so those two were really, you know, the worst pair of that Arena could have met. She she while Dusty was living out of town. Dusty and her were friends. I think for a little bit while Dusty was away, she started took up with Dusty's boyfriend, which infuriated Dustine was wearing
his coat. And then there was this incident where she stole Josephine's notebook. So, I mean, it's very petty, and I think that's part of why when the police first heard heard about this, they were couldn't believe it because the whole way these girls talked about their anger with each other, you know, so classically adolescent, they were really you know, genuinely immature. They were fourteen and fifteen and
fighting over boys and clothes and so. But then there were this character Josephine had had quite a violent streak, so she.
Became she was she a real leader though, sorry excuse me, but was she a real leader of these girls? I mean was she able? You said that she had she had people shoplifting for, but was she really what they were really they would look up to her and listen to her.
I think within a small group. I think, you know, she's within the small group. I think that she could, she could orchestrat things. I mean, she was overheard before the murderer, planning ways to kill Rena and you know, discussing let's make a grace so she you know, she had a authority over a viewism.
Okay, tell us the rest of the characters in this, in this little group of people that are involved. We've we've mentioned Dusty, and we haven't mentioned Kelly Ellard, and we haven't mentioned Srita, mentioned the other girls that are involved, directly involved, and then we'll proceed from there.
Well, Kelly Allard which is her real name, because she was tried as an adult, even though you know she was the same age. She was Josephine's best friend. They've been best friends for a long time and we're you know, they describe each other as sisters. And she of all of this group, including Rena, she came from the most stable home and sort of the most middle class home, and but that had always been I don't know always, but recently had been showing kind of behaving violently, getting
in fights at school, getting kicked out of school. And so her and Josephine we were quite close, and I guess that she she had never met Rina, she didn't live in the group home, but when she heard about Rena doing this to her friend. You know, Rena was spreading rumors that Josephine had aids and h something about her, you know, her eyebrows or fake or so she was.
Well, the age rumor would be quite serious. That's a that's a quite serious allegation.
Yeah. Yeah, So so that this was like, you know, a bad mix of people that Rena got involved with, and they all sort of set off each other and and the three girls and then there was a force.
Basically they you know, they set up a plan to ben Aprina and lured her out, and then they invited a couple of other girls that were known for for fighting, one girl with a kickbox champion and well and uh so they they called around a lot of these girls didn't didn't take up the offer, you know, but they it was a very organized payback that they were planning.
Now what happens in your book? There is an interesting development that happens, Elaine Bell. You call it the conversation her mother and if the mother heard there was some talk about killing someone or killing Rena. Right, tell us about when that conversation happened, and what happened in that conversation and what did Elaine bell Do as a result of that conversation.
Yeah, that was a pretty stunning thing that there was a day that you know, Justine was came home from the group home and went home to her mom and said, I feel sick, and you know, she was not going to school and was lying on the sofa and her mother overheard her calling Kelly and talking about ways to kill somebody. Let's dig a grave.
Yeah.
I think her mother, you know, was just hearing the one side of the conversation and her daughter was laughing and let's dig a grave. Oh I couldn't do that. And there was a lot of talk about burying her and covering her with leaves and giggling, and so you would think that most mothers would you know, be stunned and asked their daughter and give them a talking to. And she just kind of took her daughter shopping after that for some clothes.
As well as therapy. I mean, how did she ignore it? How did she ignore it? She just thought, well, maybe a good a good shopping spree will help that kind of.
I mean, I think a recurrent thing with all these parents that I witnessed and spoke to is just you don't know, if it's indifference or denial, but they just did not deal with their kids really violence.
Yeah, I mean, now you you mentioned you touched on the aids, So was that that was the that was the turning point was apparently that Rena had called and said that Josephine had aids.
Right, That's that's what happened.
I think that was one of them. I think, you know, and she had the jacket of Dusky's boyfriend. And then there was a boy, an older boy in town that these girls liked, and she had started calling him and asking him out on dates, and and she.
Had called Warren G.
She had called Warren G as well, hadn't she And he didn't know who it was.
No, that was she called a different boy named Colin, Yeah, Colin, and he didn't know. And so he realized, you know, she got number from Nicole, I mean sorry, from Josephine. So he was a he was angry. So it was just you know, a general Yeah, they were just angry about all these things. Yeah, it was an escalating anger.
No, I know, you'll probably never know and no one will know. But what wasn't Rina Urk's mind? I mean, she wants to fit in.
Is she.
She's not this clue, she's not this naive to realize that this is not going to work. So do you have any indication of what was going on in her mind?
Yeah, that's a good question. I mean, I say, all I can think, you know, she's not she's sort of the missing person we can't hear from or nobody knows what her experience was. And but I I think that maybe she thought, you know, these girls weren't that friendly to her. She tried to be friends with them, and maybe she just thought, I'll show them, you know, I can be as tough and mean as they can. You know, that would be my guess.
But then why would she go to the party so unsuspecting? I mean, these girls are trying to be gangsters. So again, and then nothing in the book indicates that they were really too clever, you know, I mean really, you know, I mean, they're young, and they're they're not experienced, thank god.
I mean, But so the thing.
Is, is is there any indication that she had any doubt at all, any trepidation whatsoever about all of a sudden being included in a party. Is there any trepidation at any point?
Yeah?
I think there was. I mean I think she had. She said on the phone, you know, I heard you wanted to kick my ass and they said no, no, but we're not mad anymore and we forgive you. And I think she just had such a longing for that to be true and just thought that you knew, and when you're a teenage girl, you know that desire. I just remember, there's a party and you just have such a pull to be there and to be part of something.
It's so yeah. Now, tell us about that faithful night of November seventeenth, and if you could go back, maybe tell us about the day of November seventeenth, the last day of Riena Burke's young life. What did she do that day? You know, she was going to that party, and she knew that obviously she knew how this party just before the day before.
I'm sorry.
Now, I think she went back home, actually to see her parents. She was living somewhere else, but she she came back home. I think she was going to spend the night with her parents. So she had a knapsack with her diary and her pajamas, and then her plan
was to you the next day. She was very close to her uncle and he was going to pick her up and they were going to go shopping for a teddy bear for I think it was, you know, something in her family had recently had a baby, and so she even she just had a typical day and then she came home with her family. She was having soup at dinner time. I think she told her family she was dieting, and her brother was there. She had a younger brother that she was close to, and they were
going to just play games that evening. So it was you know, a tyfficulty and kind of hopeful in the sense that she was with her parents and having time with her family and had to play on the next day to go shopping with her uncle. So she you know, there was nothing really unusual for her that day.
Now, what happened that night? Where did her faithful night start? What time was it earlier in the evening?
What happened?
Let us take our audience through this event, all.
Right, Well, at the school, and this was pretty typical when I grew up in that community, to you that there were parties, kids would party. I mean I didn't quite do it that young, but these kids were fourteen and thirteen and fifteen, but there were parties on the field. I don't know if you guys do that. So that's a large space. Yeah, So the kids get there and pour their alcohol into their lemonade, you know, models or whatever. So that was what they did every Friday night at
the school Shoreline. Shoreline was the school that none of these Brena Kelly went to, but Reena didn't go to. Uh I say, Josephina been kicked out of don't think
Dusty was in school either. So Kelly was in the process of being kicked out and they had actually brought her in for anchor management classes and you know, she was about to be kicked out, and Warren went there and then in Warren's group with a whole completely different group of girls who are much more you know, not I would say, the kind of cheerleader group, though they didn't have cheerleaders off the school, but they were the more pretty fun loving, you know girls. They weren't criminal
and they weren't in this gangster a thing. So it it was just this huge group of students, you know, fifty to sixty students and that was where so they were there partying. What happened was that group somebody at the school at the party threw a rock through the
window and of the school janitor called the police. So the kids all took off and as they did that, they joined forces with this other group of kids, which included Arena and Josephine and Kelly, and so all this whole large group kind of got thrown into this plot that they had nothing new, didn't have any idea about.
So all the kids made their way away from the school where they thought the police were coming, and there was an area under a bridge, so some of the kids went under there and as planned, and you know, once they were under there, then that's when Josephine and Kelly started and Dusty started beating up Rina and it
was pretty pretty vicious. And then these other kids from Shoreline who were there, some of them jumped in, including Warren who really didn't know any of these girls and didn't know anything about the fight to other girls that you know, it was just this moment of kind of I describe it like these matches and someone little Matt and the fire went off and this rage of these kids came out, and then Rena was there. A lot of the other girls especially were kind of horrified and
ran away and including a lot of Warren's friends. And so that was how it started. That was a very unlikely incident in that, you know, this sort of criminal plot brought in and gathered in all these.
Other kids who hit her first?
Was it was it Joseph and then.
Well Josephine put a cigarette out on her face, okay, and then and then what happened to and then Kelly started to push She tried to get away, and Kelly punched her, and then another girl tripped her and she fell, and she kept trying to get away, and they just kept pushing her and punching her, and then Warren kicked her.
Were they stopping stomping her and kicking her as well?
In the end?
I don't think they were stomping her now, but they were, you know, one girl would kick her and punch her in the back of the head, and Warren would kick her, and she would try to leave and she you know, and then one the kickboxer girl actually said she's had enough stop it, and everybody stopped and they left her kind of down there in the mud.
Okay, how many people were around at that time? You say there was the kickboxer, which is Warren's friend and another girl. And so there's Dusty, Kelly, Josephine, Rena Warren my correct.
Yeah, it's another girl called Eve and another girl called Maya who and another one other girl. So there were eight eight kids in the in the fight, you know, in the sort of immediate circle fight, and then you know, ten to fifteen kids witnessing it and watching it.
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Who were doing nothing?
Okay?
And so when they left her in the mud, how many people left?
Because this doesn't end, so.
How many people?
Ostensibly they all left and then that's kind of where the mystery begins, because they all left a lot of them had curfews, their parents were coming to pick them up. And you know, everybody witnessed this leaving a lot of parents, saw the kids getting into cars, and a lot of kids will last they saw Arena she was down there. And then a few kids finally admitted they saw Rina get up and by herself, which must have been horrifying
for her. She was bleeding and sort of stumbling, and she started to walk across this bridge to go back home. And then there were two two figures seen following her and that would you know, turn out to be or you know, the police theory was that those figures are warning Kelly and that and then she was also so they were seen following her across the bridge and then later that night they were seen coming back across the bridge by themselves without rerena.
How did she ultimately die?
And she was found drowned in a body of water called the Gorge, and she had sustained huge injuries. They the corner described it to, you know, injuries that you see in some run over by a car, and her organs were crushed. And but but she the official cause of death was drowning.
She was so obviously there was far more damage than was initially inflicted. And also wasn't wasn't she was half naked, that was she was described as being found half naked as well.
So yeah, she I think what happened was, you know, when nobody knows, but when they dragged her into the water, her pants fell off, and I think her sure, you know, probably just floated off in the water.
I see, I got it. Okay.
So there was never any there was never any talk of sexual abuse or anything, a sexual assault or anything like that. Okay, Okay, so well thank god for that anyway. Okay, Now, so so now obviously we have you've alluded that obviously no one really knows, and so we're we're obviously going to get to eventually to a trial. But after this has happened, all the people have left. Give us what
has happened in what happens after? Obviously Rina's parents have called police, and initially they just think, well maybe because she's a runaway, Well, well what happens? Give us some events after that, because it's very interesting what happens after all those witnesses? Does anybody call police?
What happens?
And that's where the story gets really, you know, fascinating, is that here are all these kids, I mean, fifteen to twenty kids had witnessed the fight, which you think alone would have been would have been brutal enough. But then the kids were all hearing rumors that the you know, the fight to turn into a murder and that somebody had got had got killed. But nobody talked to the police.
Nobody even talked to their parents about the fight. Well, nobody talked to a teacher, and Rena's parents called the police several times and reported thing. You know, this was before the era of cell phones and and all of that, so you have to keep in mind that there it was sort of easier to to disappear as a girl, and so it was the police just thought, well, this girls just probably ran away. They didn't investigate, And meanwhile, these rumors were getting more and more rampant, more and
more exaggerated. You know, there was rumored that she'd been you know, her arm had been pulled off, and these kids were just all whispering about it, and yet nobody, nobody came forward, and it was it took the police. Wasn't till a week later that arrests were made. So for seven.
Days, how did they come about to make arrest? How did that? How did that come about?
And that was really you know, that was one thing that I really explore and under the bridge because it was never it's never public. But there were two sisters who were living in this group home with Josephine and had both were both more or less a band, you know, orphaned, had no family and we're we're there, well, I guess one sister was there, and Josephine started bragging about this, so we killed this girl at you know, very proud,
and they were sort of horrified. I think the younger sister had met had met Rena, and so even though they were not like goody goody girls, and they found against their coat to go to the police. They did
go to the police. They I guess they called Rena's mom, and Rina's mom told them that Rina was missing, and she was frightened and in their words, you know, the monther sounded so upset, and so they went to the police, and the police kind of didn't last them out of there, but just for like what, you know, these two girls come in at fourteen and sixteen and tell you a bunch of girls killed another girl. So they didn't they thought it was quote far fetched and just ignored it.
And then these two sisters, you know, they became kind of like detectives. They went back and they asked Josephine, like, show me where you did it. They went to the scene of the crime and she actually obviously didn't know what happened to Kelly had told her, so she tried to reenact it, but she herself didn't know much. So
the sisters, you know, they got names of people. They went back to the police and sort of screamed at the police, you know, do something almost you know, I think it was really brave of them in a sense, and they gave the police the names they had. So the police did another investigation and one of the police recognized one of the names of the girls involved and had a kind of relationship with her, of friendship with her, and went and talked to her and she spilled the duanes.
So then they started rounding up the kids and they had a kind of crazy night where they brought in I think like thirty to forty teenagers, and the teenagers were screaming and crying, and they started arresting people and it was like detectives had never seen anything like this. They had the cell full of these girls screaming and crying, very young and scared and so and then even then
they really didn't know what had happened. It was very difficult because there were so many rumors and it was just you know, usually you find the body and then you start the investigation, and in this case, they just had this rumor from these girls that some girl name you know, have themed ton't even know her name, some girl they had her name wrong, Lisa had been killed and they had no body. So it was very they
called it a very unusual investigation. Finally they went to the gorge and had divers go in and found the body. But even then, you know, they had no evidence, you know, no gun or our fingerprints. They just they had this body and all these stories of girls, and the girls were we were very loyal to each other, and none of them would talk, and if they did talk, they they told stories that didn't make sense or contradicted each other.
So, right, so it was a big mess. Yeah, big mess for Sergeant Bob Wall and some of the other detectives. Now, avenge is how long did it take them to sort the whole thing out and lay the definitive chargers and identify who is going to be there, say star witness or witness for the prosecution. How long did it take them to sort of sort this out and make their to sort of for them to sort out who they thought were the principal players in this.
I think once they had you know, after the eight days, once they had all the kids in custody, and they really did an incredible amount of of you know, a huge investigation. They brought in three different teams of the police and they they were interrogating kids constantly and through
all hours of the night. And once once that started, I guess, you know, the first the first witness that they found to help them with Serita, who is Warren's girlfriend because he had confessed to her and she told the police about this concession and she.
Go ahead, go ahead, go ahead, no say in his shirt.
Yeah, which had blood on them. So that was site of their first you know, clue that's his involvement.
And why I know that you talk about a trial that there's quite a bit of talk about her, I guess conflict. You know, she did like Warren, but however she didn't, you know, she had a moral code, and she did testify there was a little bit of blood on the clothes, and she did wash the clothes and everything that he did say. But you do talk about that from your research, and I guess from your interviews she really was conflicted by what she had to do.
Guess yeah.
I mean I saw her during the trial, his trial. She was the start minus against him, and she was very reluctant, very you know, hostile, not I would say hostile, but she did not want to be there. And they played in court her initial testimony, which was really heartbreaking because it was almost like as she told the detective what he had told her, she started to realize it was true and that her boyfriend had killed somebody, and she started crying. And she was, but she had not.
He had told her that the blood was there because he got in a fight, and she just couldn't believe he was, you know, this sweet little boy that he could do that, so or she had convinced herself that it was just a bad story, in her words. So it wasn't until he was arrested and the body was found that she faced this, and then she really suffered
because of that. And then the police kind of honed in on her as she was really the only one that came forward, so they wanted to build the whole case around her because I meanwhile, Kelly was clamming up with expensive lawyers and not talking. They had nothing on Kelly and Josephine, who really was the sort of perpetrator you know, wasn't there The instigator was not refused to give a statement, so they could eat more easily build a case on Warren, and so they really went after her.
Okay.
Now, so even though they didn't have either Kelly's or Warren's actual testimony, were they able to make a conviction at draw? Were they to looted?
Well, they did get Warren did confess. They really went after him. I mean I think initially everyone believed. What was so sort of surprising even to me when I started researching, was I thought, Warren, you just hear, okay, eight girls have been arrested. You see them, I mean I saw them all. They're very just ordinary looking girls like you'd see in them all, and you there's this one boy, and you think like that it's just human nature for what we know, you know, boys and girls
that you think it's the boy. So the whole sort of prosecution theory and police interrogation was really to focus on Warren and that he must have he must have done it all, and he must have been really the true killer. And then these other girls were just kind of there and you know, but they didn't actually do it. So that was that was everybody's everybody's theory. And then when you started, you know, talking to more people, you
get a completely different picture of what happened. And so even Warren was pretty quick to open up and confess, and he said that his story was that he had followed her with Kelly beating her up some more, and then Kelly started dragging her into the water and he said stop, and Kelly kept doing it, and then Kelly held her head underwater until she died and that was history. And you know, people didn't believe it, but as as more evidence came forward and it was it was more or less true.
So she didn't take the stand. But he he did take the stand.
Well, they were tried separately. He was tried first, and it was really interesting, you know, in terms of class and you know, sex like who you know, he was tried first as the boy. He he didn't get out on bail. She got out on bail. She came from a more I don't know if her family had money or she got a high profile lawyer. His lawyer had never done a murder case. His lawyer told him to have a trial with judge only, so he didn't have
a jerry trial. He was tried very quickly, and you know and somewhat to the sort of rage of the city was on him. People really wanted him not to take the fall because he was involved, but you know, so he was. He did take the stand, He did tell the story, but it was sort of you know, laughed at and mocked and and then he was sent to maximum security prison. When he was you know, it was five ft two, sixteen year old boy I Meanwhile, she Telly was out on bail. Her lawyers kept citing,
you know, trying to appeal things. She didn't go to trial for almost a year, and then she took the sand and she looked very school girl and spoke in a sweet, you know, high voice, and said that she hadn't been there, She hadn't done anything. These were just rumors that people spread about her. And you know, they had one teeth and evidence on her which was quite strong, which was her coat had salt stains on it that matched the assault in the in the gorge where Arena's
body was found. That wasn't admitted in her first trial, her statement, her interview, even though she didn't say anything, you sort of watching it can see that she's guilty just by the way she's fudging and the police leave the room and she starts screaming and swearing and saying, I'm going to kill whoever told on me. And so you know there was that also wasn't admitted. So in her first trial she was still stung guilty, but then it was overturned and she was also on house arrest
all year her trial. So then you knows, as the book explorers then she had a second and third trial, which is pretty unprecedented.
Yes, yes, so what was what was the reason for the first and second and third? What was why were they why was she needing another trial?
What was the issue?
And the first trial they appealed her lawyers and said she was questioned improperly on the stand. I guess the prosecution asked her. You know, her story was, I didn't I didn't do this, and all these girls I just heard about this. All these girls started saying this about me, and you know, the prosecution, I mean, the defense can say, well, you know how girls are, and they pick on one girl and start these rumors. So so that was her defense.
And then the prosecution asked her what reason would why would they do this? Why would all these people, you know, all these witnesses that have come forward, who apparently you confess, do because she did brag to a lot of people that she killed Rena. Why would they all make this up? And she said I don't know, And I guess that was considered. You can't ask, you can't.
Yeah, what somebody else said, say, okay, you can only ask it defended what they had to say. Now what someone else I Hear'Say, is that what I'm getting.
Out of it?
Or try to explain their motive. It's like an untair burden on them.
To try to say, you know, okay, so so what happened?
Trial?
So what happened?
And then they had to have a third trial.
So there was a second trial where she really kind of showed her true colors for the first time. She had a very good female prosecutor kind of went after her because her story really didn't make any sense. You know, she she it just she said she walked around and there was no witnesses, and she was seen on the you know, she was seen coming back across the bridge and confessed even that night to someone who fum into her.
I just killed somebody. What should I do? So her story of where she'd been and what she'd done, she had no alibi or it just didn't make any sense. So as they pushed her, she started screaming at the prosecutor, you know, shut up, leave me alone. And we also saw this violent girl, and you saw somebody that that
had this explosive rage. So it seemed pretty certain that as well as you know, they had quite a good case against her, that she would be convicted that it was a hung jury, So that mistrial.
Interesting, So what did she finally get in the third trial?
What was she convicted of?
Finally she's convicted of secondary murder and have a life sentence. She's elgible for parole. But she only began. They appealed also that conviction and they won. It was overturned her third conviction, and then the prosecution took her to the Supreme Court who upheld it. So she's really been like dragging, it's been dragging out forever. So interestingly, Warren through all this, you know, he went to jail right away and served
his time. He never appealed to her asy trials to that, and he I think he appealed the first the first conviction that it was kind of cursory and not very serious and not you know, didn't go to any higher court.
Right.
So but he's he's out of prison.
Now, how many years did he actually spend physically in prison?
I guess I thirteen years?
Thirteen years.
Yeah, you know what's interesting to me, you know, and I know I understand Canadian law pretty well, and it is very very unusual for a person not to get out on bail.
Regardles.
Yeah, I know it's a murder trial, but he's not a flight risk.
And he's quite young.
That's a pretty poor defense lawyer. They cannot because I mean, in some cases people want to spend the double time credit because they're pretty certain they're going to be convicted. And in particular case, with a young man.
Like that, he had he had no family there, so geez, there is just nobody too, you know.
Yeah, it's quite unfair for sure.
I mean I don't feel sorry for killers too often or people involved in these types of things. But there's obviously a little uh obviously you pointed out there's quite a difference in the defense that those two people could afford or had regardless, right, Well, she.
Had, you know, exceptional lawyer, just incredible lawyers. It was also a really hard case to try because there was no physical evidence except for that code. But mostly you had all these teenagers stories, and the teenagers were not the most you know, articulate witnesses. They were like teenagers. They were surly and and in that attitude and were you know, contradictory or couldn't you know if they lied originally they and now were telling the truth. They couldn't
explain that they would get defenses. So it was almost comical at times watching these these kids come up because they were you know, every word was like and they were fantastic, and yeah, so it was hard. And also I think there really was this perception that a girl was not capable of physical violence and at this level, and that really worked in her favor, whether people consciously think that or you know, it's it was definitely there.
It's just easier, or it's just it's just we've seen so many murders of these forty year old, creepy looking guys. When you see a pretty girl who's who's five foot two, it defies belief that she could do this.
Well sure, And and I think the thing is when you have good representation and the law advises you wisely to dress a certain way and have your hair a certain way and present yourself a certain way, and then he does his job and presenting you a certain way, then yeah, I mean, I think historically men are obviously more often killers, and you know, it's even unusual for
a woman's serial kill. That's a very unusual thing. And you are seeing a lot of stories that are quite popular now that where kids kill, mom said kill or things like that, which is really shocking to people. I think people realize that that there's certainly the Willie Picton's around and Robert Picton's around, but the young kids is really, it really is unnerving to the public. And I think that's why this case was so high profile. It was
just the difference. Like you say, nobody even told their parents. I mean it's like, I mean, you're in a little I was just in Victoria a couple of years ago. It's such a beautiful paradise. I mean, really, it is the jewel of Canada. It really is to imagine something like that and kids being just as bad as they are here in crime capital of Canada, Winnipeg or anywhere else. It is unnerving to people because I think really that you always hear that, oh in my neighborhood, how unusual.
It's Victoria. What is the most if you were if if you were to ask people, this is the place this is least likely to happen. I think that's why the whole community in the country was so unnerved.
Yeah, definitely. I mean they really do call it paradise. It looks you know, that's what people think it's you.
So is there any conclusions you have, any commentary you have from What did you have you learned from this whole process, with the court process, and did you agree with the verdict? Tell us a little just a little bit about what you got from this other than this fine book, But what did you get out of it? What are your kind of conclusions or some of the things that you came to that you would not have come to had you not done this entire process.
In this case, I guess I think the stories are so much more complex than we see in the media. I mean, this is just in the media. Was this murder story and misfit killed like gang girls. And what I really tried to do in the book was show the complexity of this story and the sort of you know,
there is pure evil. We like to think that that's what causes the murder, but there's also you know, good people who get caught up in these things, who are then faced with these moral conflicts between right and wrong. And then so many people acted really bravely like those sisters, and that you wouldn't expect they were quote criminals. And then you have these parents who are quote good parents who ignore their the signs of their kids being cruel
or believes. And so I think, you know, whenever we see these stories in the yeah, we kind of want to just think, oh, these are these are bad people, and it's it's so much more complicated. At least this case was so much more layered and more fascinating and sort of the people and how they ended up here. There was a long history for each of them, what
brought them to this place. And I remember Rieing his uncle saying like, if you could just find out how they all met and even the stories of how all these girls their lives crossed and how they drew them to this place. And I think with Warren that he really turned his life around, and I mean became somebody who worked, you could have just become hardened, and did heer and he worked in prison to kind of become
a better person. He ultimately met with the Urk family and how to and spoke with them and and you know, really was they just changed for the better in very difficult situation. And so and yet and then Kelly, you see, is somebody who really has had no remorse. So I think just the complexity of people and the different ways that we all act when we are faced with something like this, you know, how do how do how does a parent act when they find out their daughter is
talking about beating up somebody? And how does the girl trying to act right? How does a girlfriend act when her boyfriend may have done something terrible? And so these sort of moral conflicts that people face. What does a detective do when a you know, some girl tells him about something and he sort of scoffs at it and then later realizes who was wrong. So that was you know, all the human stories that are in one night that you can unfold in terms of like social issues. I mean,
I'm not really people ask me that a lot. That's the most common question, like what can we learn from this? And that was never my approach and not as you know, I wasn't writing.
It from the kind of well you can't be expected to do it anyway.
I mean psychologists, But yeah, but I did. I was sort of struck by how many of these young teenagers had nothing fucilling in their life, you know know, whether it was music or sports or something that they could find a purpose with, and that they really they didn't
have good education, they didn't have good parents. They didn't, so they sort of drifted into this identity of being gangsters, or they were more affected by popular culture that became kind of what influenced them, because they were just sort of emptiness. I think if those kids had been exposed to art or sports, had just been given more attention, this wouldn't have happened.
Well, I mean, the thing is I always hear that in Canada, but I never hear that in America. The thing is more rex space for killers, potential killers. I personally think if you have the capacity to kill, it's a very unusual thing. I know that there's this phenomena of the mob mentality, or not even a mob mentality, just sort of like you said, people just jump in there and then didn't do anything, and then didn't do anything proper after that as a result, didn't have a conscience either.
So you can see that a.
Lot of people don't really care so much. But those people that are capable of doing this horrendous, horrific murder, that is unusual. And so I say, yeah, maybe those other people, yeah, idle hands, but I don't know a couple of psychopathic people maybe, like you say, Warren G. But at least one of these people in this book, to me, I have no redeeming value.
I mean, I think Kelly was, you know, had all the marks of a psychopath and not sense and you know, those those people, and I'm not where the parents and they don't start to react to the signs in their child or that their child is harming because she had hurt other people before. And so I think that's you know, it's surprising to me that a parent when intervened earlier with their child.
Sure, you know what, I just thought. We're just going to wrap it up now and just want to let people know where they can get the book obviously from Amazon and Barnes and Noble in chapters and everywhere else.
But we'll just give a little bit of information.
What I just thought was interesting in your book was that you did a follow up and so Josephine Bell was a new dancer in Sirita as for the story is speaking to girls about not getting into the kind of pitfalls that she almost got into.
Yeah, kind of interesting in your book.
Yeah, because Josephine Bell is one cocky person, that's for sure. And you know what's really I got to tell the audience that what's really unusual, or you know, because I read a lot of true crime and I've interviewed all these people, is that you've done a great job of really getting down to everyone's level by including so many exclusive conversations and so the way these people are speaking, you really tried to get into their minds, into their mindset to try to understand this.
I mean, who can.
But you've done a remarkable job in capturing that and through the conversations.
That you have been able.
To get in this book.
So it's quite good.
So I want to tell you also, I want to tell our audience that you've been listening to Rebecca Godfrey and this is her book Under the Bridge, the True Story of the Murder of Rena Vik and it's the two thousand and six British Columbia Award for Canadian Nonfiction.
Well deserved.
And so tell us about if you have a website or any other contact information or what you're doing right now of any new projects in the true crime genre.
I do have a website, and I, you know, wasn't the true crime writer. I was a novelist and wrote this and I was quite you know, I spent a long seven years and it took me a long time to get these kids to talk, and it was quite distressing in a hard books. Right, So I'm gone, doct I'm right, we're here on fiction now.
I don't believe at all.
Yeah, because it's just such an ordeal.
It's like you can these people in America turning on one of these one one a year.
I'm going, really right.
I don't know how people do it, but yeah, I mean you can if you want to do it quickly. I really wanted to, like you say, get all their voices and thoughts and yeah, and have a really deep look into their lives, not just like take the police report and summarize it.
So absolutely, yeah, you've done a great job. And so yes, So anyway you've got the website, can give us the website.
This is Rebecca.
Godfree dot com.
Yet there we.
Go, and that's Godfree. If people don't see these, uh, it's good. F R E Y Rebecca Godfrey. Under the Bridge The True Story of the Murder of Rena K. Thank you very much Rebecca for coming onto the program. And then during the mix up with our Canadian MLS telephone.
Service, that's who it was.
They're to blame so well. Thank you very much for coming on and doing this interview. It was very very informative and I want to thank you very much.
Thank you Dan.
Well, you have a good night, and will and I will talk to you soon and good luck with all your ventures.
Thank you so much. Okay, good night bye.
You've been listening to the program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime History, with your host Dan Supansky. Have a good evening, Good night,