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You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most shocking Killers in true crime History and the authors that have written about them. My special guest this evening is a veteran journalist and best selling author and crime reporter for the Toronto Star, and we're calling we're talking with speaking with him in Toronto. I want to welcome Nick pron to the program and thank you for doing this interview. Nick Pron. Well, we
seem to have some technical problem here. I'm sure that Nick will get back on air here. I'd heard him talking in the background. We're going to be talking with Nick pron who's the author of Lethal Marriage, The Uncensored Truth Behind the Crimes of Carla Hamalka and Paul Bernardo. It's a particularly interesting case if you haven't heard about it.
Even if you have heard about it, this is the one of the few journalists that was privy to all the information that was displayed in court, that was detailed in court, all the graphic details. One of the features of this was that Canadian law of sensing that these people would not have a fair trial and then there would be certainly some sort of media circus, chose to have a publication ban or what they call a publication deferral of information that could certainly be published later, but
not at that particular time. So American journalists were not afforded the privilege of being in the courtroom to witness what some people have called the trial of the century, but certainly one of the most shocking, interesting, fascinating and incredible true crime stories ever told. And we're going to be speaking with Nick Prawn. I was just speaking to him just before here. So let's see what we have here.
Hello Nick? Oh sorry, well, okay, great, okay, yeah, I just introduced your book and maybe you can tell us how long have you been with the Toronto Star and.
About thirty two years? About thirty two years yeah, and murder trial. Well, I've actually followed the first murder and you know, followed the case for about three years before it went to trial.
What year are we talking? What what year did the trial? Did the trial start itself?
Well, he Bernardo himself was convicted in September of nineteen ninety five, and Carla was g two years before that, I guess in ninety three, nineteen ninety three, when she
had her secret trial. And I was just listening to you because it was interesting the the Americans were shut out because it was felt that they weren't governed by the same loss, so they would break the pub band and all the information would get out about what she had done, and it was felt it would it would harm the fair trial rights of him, and he might
get off or he wouldn't have a fair trial. And one of the American reporters I remember him standing outside the door and he was just sort of looking through the through the door, through the glass doors of the courtroom, and he couldn't get in. And shortly after that, a reporter from the Washington Post, she had an office in the same building, and she came and she started asking me for all the details and I told her I
couldn't give it to him. I couldn't give her anything because I was under a pub band and one of the cops had called me up. He said, you know, if anybody leaks the stuff, you're the first time we're going to nail from because we figure you're the one that's going to do it. And I just, you know, like I couldn't talk to her, and I told her that I felt bad because you know, I'm a reporter,
but I had to honor the band. And she eventually got the information from somebody, I think, and it eventually got out before his trial.
Right, well, let's go back for our audience here way but way back to okay, for those that the people that don't know this story, but still we still want to lay out basically your incredible book and really what goes on is that we really need to know. We got to introduce the notorious killer couple, who are the really the starring subjects in your book, Lethal Marriage. Who is Carla Jlmalka.
She was born to a typical middle class family in Saint Catharines, which is near the you know, near the border with the States. Her father was or was and still is probably a small businessman, made and sold lamps. Her mother worked in a nurse in the hospital. And you know, when talking to all the neighbors she was, they were a very well liked family. They'd just swimming poll in the backyard. It was a you'd seen it was You'd think it was a very normal upbringing. All
the neighbors really liked the family. It was the Hamoka place. The Amoka household was a place to go for kids, you know, for something and all that. They were very open household. If she had any deep dark secrets in the family, you wouldn't think he'd that kind of openness. And the neighbors really thought there was nothing wrong with her that she was. They really thought she was victimized by him, totally victimized, that she was an abused wife and all that. And of course the truth was quite
a bit different. And I mean there were several incidents of neighbors actually attacking reporters at first, you know, when she had her secret trial, because they couldn't believe that she had done all these things. She she she liked witchcraft. She was into witchcraft. She was fascinated. Talking to some of her friends, she was fascinated by death. I know she pet had died and she insisted on dragging her friend along to dig up this pet. I think it
was a dog that died, or as a cat. And she worked in a very reputable veterinarian place, and you know, at times they have to put down animals or they have to put them to sleep, and that's where she sort of realized how you can drug people using hall of Fane. And she wanted to get to Saint Catherine's
in the worst way. She was the kind of person who wanted something better, something more in her life than living in a Saint Catherine's is a wonderful community, but she wanted, I don't know, to move on, maybe move out to the States or something. And when Bernardo came along, you know, here's this big shot guy from Toronto drives a I think it was a Dats and Dats in three hundred ssex, you know, like a very sporty car. And you know he was National Lifeguard, which is a
you know, very well advanced lifeguard. And he seemed like a very glitzy kind of guy. He was an accountant, or so she thought that was just sort of his lies. He wasn't really an account and he was never a credited as an account and he was, you know, good looking, well well built, and she bragged to her friends that, you know, this was the guy for me. And she was only I think seventeen, sixteen, seventeen and he was
twenty three. So there was quite an aging gap there and then and then you know, and then, I if you are sympathetic towards her, you'd think, well, then she kind of got drawn in. And when she was drawn in, she was hooked. And you know, those things happen. You know, you get drawn into somebody, into a situation, and you get in your in your you're sunk. But you know, she had plenty of opportunities to leave and when she
realized what a monstery was, and she never did. And that's I think that's what irritates a lot of us that not irritated, but when we were sat through or seek a trial and we had to listen to all the things that she was involved, and we were just infuriated, I guess the word. And we have to sit on that for about two years until his trial came up.
He will let's go let's go back a little bit because at the same time that this is happening, that their relationship is unfolding, and she is talking to a lot of her friends. You you describe in great detail because some of the documents that you have that you're privy to is that she has all these glowing terms for her her fairy tale marriage. This is the man of her life. She's planning an elaborate wedding and has nothing extolling all the virtues of this man. But at
the same time, there's something going on in Scarborough. And for our audience to say in the US, if you can tell us a little bit when somebody says Scarborough, we're still talking about Toronto. We're talking about an area Scarborough, or apartment an area of Toronto. He can tell us what was going on at the same time that their fairy tale relationship was just beginning.
Well, he lived in He lived in an area of Toronto called Guildwood, Guildwood Village, and it was something like I'm dating myself here. It was like, we'll leave it to Beaver would live it to middle to supper class, middle middle class, supper class community. Probably one of the safest places to live. There's you know, all the years I covered crime. I never actually ventured into that area until he came along, because there was nothing ever happened
on there of a criminal nature. And on the surface of it, it seemed like he had a very you know, his father was in the count and his mother was a stay at home mom. However, you know, things are not what they seem. The father later, as we found out, was he pled guilty. He was convicted of sexual assault, and I mean, I'd love to get into the details, but we can't because the victim's identity is protected by
law and it still is. And you can imagine what kind of impact that would have upon a child growing up to see your father, you know, convicted of a crime like that. His mother, she had her own issues, and there was allegations that she was having in a fair and that his dad wasn't a real dad, and all that played upon him.
Isn't that what she told him at a certain age she kept Yeah, and that.
Had that had a huge impact on him, obviously, and then he developed like a nervous tick. And he I mean, on the surface, he was like he was the you know, the Barbie and Ken. He was the Ken. He was here was a guy who was a lifeguard. He was you know, good looking, you know, good build. He went to university, although he took him three times to get his degree, and he seemed like the perfect kind of guy. Underneath the surface, he was just a monster. I mean,
he was a nurse. He suffered from narcissism, He was a sexual sadist. He literally enjoyed pain. I mean, he inflected a lot of pain on the women he assaulted, and like he didn't really care. I mean it didn't you know, didn't never crossed his path at these you know that he was really violently hurting these women. He just he had urges and he had to I mean, to be graphic. He'd be driving along and he'd see a woman that he liked on the street and he would get aroused and you know, I have to go
and tay more details. He would just be, you know, with himself and he'd be trying to pleasure himself. He was that kind of guy. But I mean the police who investigate him when he was eventually suspected of being the rapist, he came across as an accountant, kind of a you know, easygoing guy, good luck and.
The fact that he had no, the fact that he had no criminal record records, no criminal record.
Yeah. And you know if he if he had lived in a say in a lower class housing housing area and he had a criminal record, the police probably would have been a lot more interested in them. But he just didn't fit the you know, the Hollywood mold for a for a for a serial killer. He was, you know, he was very outgoing, very good looking. He had a job, he had a you know, he had a had a girlfriend. He had lots of girlfriends, actually lots of girls liked them.
He went around with a lot of I think, I think he one time he bragged that he could have as many as three hundred women or something. And he just didn't present the kind of character that you would think. And underneath the surface, well, he had his urges and he just when he had him, he was going to satisfy him no matter what, no matter who he hurt or no matter what he did.
Let's go back just a little bit because I wanted to you outline Bernardo's background, and he does start off with voyeurism, and there is an acceleration not to start talking about that theory that some of these criminals start at a certain point and then accelerate, and who knows what they can do, but maybe let's talk a little bit about that acceleration. He didn't go. You're already mentioning serial murder, and maybe our audience is not sure what's
going on here with these Scarborough rapes. Like I said at the same time that their relationship was just beginning detail in your book. I these Scarborough rapes are going on. And as far as you say in your book anyway that Carla was not aware that you was dating this rapist at that time, well.
He I he started out before long before he met Carla. He was he was attacking women I think as many as thirteen and he was, you know, he was literally following buses around in the East end of Toronto, and and you know, and uh when they ever when there were women got off at a a lonely bus stop, there was there was Bernardo and he he he was he he sort of met her when he was after committing about I can't remember the exact number, but he met her and he confessed to her that he'd he
that he was doing all these rapes. And then one of the victims saw sort of got a glimpse of his face. They put out a very good sketch and a lot of people recognized him, although not a lot of people went to the police, and this I think it was a woman at at a bank went to the police and they brought him in for questioning. And uh, he looked incredibly like the suspect, but again, he was very glib or he was very he wasn't like you're
from your Central Casting type of villain. And uh, DNA was just sort of coming into coming into you know, just coming just coming online at that time. So when they got his DNA sample, they they didn't they didn't process it right away. And then once he once he was questioned by police, he confessed to Carla and then then the two of them moved out of Toronto. So
then the rape stopped. And what happens a lot of times in these police investigations, you know, they have a huge task force and they they probe it like crazy, and then when the rape, when you know, the killing stop or the rape stop, the task force kind of just dissolved and and uh, you know, you know, you know, when talking to the investigators, they wanted to stay with the case, but you know, there were more. There were
no more sexual assaults going on in scarb. In fact, they were moving to Saint.
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Bath Rooms and there was you know that let lapse in there. So he told her, He told her when he was sort of well into his you know, into his into his spree of rapes and Scarborough and she, uh, you know, I mean that was her first clue to get out of this relationship. But she didn't. She you know, she was portrayed as this, you know, is this abused
wife and all that. But you know, in all the abused cases of that, I fall you know, or talk to women usually they're you know, they don't have a lot of a lot of education, they don't have a lot of family, a lot of friends. Carla had all of the above. She had family, she had friends, she had a job. She did not she was not an
abused wife. She was she was a co accused who got beaten up, I mean, And they try to portray her as an abused wife to us, And I think that's what infuriated most of us, Dan and it's to this day, it still bothers me that that they were trying to portray her as a battered wife, because you know, all the battered women out there who are genuinely victims, she's she's not in that category at all, all right, So yeah, still, you know what, after all these years,
I still have strong feelings on that. When we first heard it, had her secret trial there in Saint Catherinees, you know, when the American media was shut out, none of us could believe they were trying to tell us that. We just there's no way she's just as guilty as he is. She should, you know, she should still be in jail to this day.
Well what did you make that determination though, before you were aware of the videotapes or at least before you were aware of the content of the videotapes. You know, it's easy to see, you know, I mean everybody would be affected by the videotapes. You made it very clear in your book. I mean, when you read the contents, let alone actually seen the video on a thirty screen.
It was what we heard. She set up her sister to be raped by Bernardo. She drugged her sister like she wasn't a virgin. He had this thing about having only having virgins when he met her. She wasn't a virgin. That bothered him. So her way of perhaps making up for that was to set up her sister of the virgin, which is sounds bizarre, but that's and then she, you know, after setting up her sister, she set up a couple of other young girls at the house where they live in Saint Catherine's.
Well, let's get back to the sister. But let's get back to the sister because this is the thing that I think, I don't care how liberal minded you are. You were reviled by the notion of this crime. So let's go slow on this one, because this is the most horrifying thing aspect of this completely is because especially in reaction that they continued that they didn't fall apart that they didn't they didn't, you know, commit suicide after this.
I mean, where do I start? I mean, the police, the police watching the investigation, her wanting to set up her sister.
I mean, well, let's go back with the night in question. It's December twenty third. She is offering her sister, her virginal fifteen year old sister, as a Christmas present to her husband, who, like you have said, has a thing for virgins, because Carla wasn't a virgin, and so she's going to participate in this. What goes wrong? They drug the girl. They how do they do that? They did use.
Carla worked in a veterinarian clinic and she had access to halathane, which is the drug use to sedate you know, animals or whatever. So with her idea that she'd use a little bit of halothane on her sister, put her to and Paul could do whatever he wanted, you know, all his fantasies with the sister. And she would stay there and she would monitor her breathing to make sure everything was okay. Like I mean, I'm not making this up.
This is what we were hearing in the courtroom where we were just incensed, and then they gave too much hallathane and she choked on her own vomit. And what happened was the the the it left a huge sort of blue mark, bluish purplish mark on her face, on her sort of on her cheek by side her mouth, and the police recalled and two cops came in there, and one was this very senior cop. The other was a sort of a rookie. And the senior cop kind of said, well, you know, it looks like an accident.
Blah blah blah. The junior cop suspicious as hell. I mean, if you look at the picture, you would be, and he was convinced there was something more to it, and he got sort of overruled by his senior colleague, and the whole thing was passed off as an accidental death. You know. Funeral Paul expressed, is you know, he was told everybody he was suicidal after that, he was so distraught over her death and blah blah blah, and and
her death was passed off as an accident. And then when Carla finally told people the truth, they you know, exhumed the remains, and they were able to you know, they were able to piece together what really happened. You know, she was drugged and she was violently sexually assaulted and it was and yes, and it was not an accident.
I mean. And we were sitting in the courtroom. We sort of before we went into the courtroom had her secret trial, we sort of had an inclination that there was something going on with Tammy the sister, was something. We would hear something, and when we heard it, we were shocked. And I can remember being just horrified at
the time and to this day I still am. And then we heard with Kristin French, for instance, all the things that Carla did, she could have maybe got herself on some one some something or other with the public. She was alone with Kristin French, that was the second of the two victims, and she was alone with her in the house there while Bernardo went out for food, and she was alone with her for twenty minutes at one or two times. And Kristin said, why don't she's
called the police, And you know Carla didn't. All she had to do was you know, dial nine one one. The police would have been there in about twenty seconds about a dozen cruisers, and she never did. And she was just you know, she was obviously just afraid for herself and she knew this, this young girl was going to be murdered within the next day or two. And you know, if she was a true battered wife, I somehow I think that she would have got the courage
to call the police. But she know she never did because she knew damn well what we all knew. She was a co accused, She was a co conspirator, and why would she want to turn herself in? And also to me, that was when we heard those two things at her trial there it was just like, I don't need to any more about this woman. I think she should be in jail for the rest of her life. The fact that she's not is a terrible injustice.
Now, after her sister was accidentally killed, these people had already they were already engaged to be married. They already had their wedding plans well under way for the spring, I believe, so they didn't want to change their plans at all. In fact, there was a letter that's revealed in your book, its contents talking about what assholes she said her parents were because they were still grieving, and then they wanted to cut back some of the money
that they were contributing to the wedding. And it was a real lavish wedding by the way, but they wanted to cut back some of the money because they just had to pay for a funeral. So it was part of the psychopathy when you can read a letter like that showing the absolute lack of remorse from this both of them at that time, but not only a lack of remorse that would be shocking enough. What did the
couple go on to do? You talk about other murders, but after this accident death where they come very very close, they should have been caught, Like you say, that should have been somebody should have noticed this wasn't an actual accidental death. And meanwhile there's still the Scarborough rapist is on the loose. What does this couple do? What does Paul Bernardo want to do? He says he's distraught over the sister dying, But what does this killer couple do?
He I mean, he says what he'd like to do is he'd like to you know, he's done all these rapes sort of at night and just grabbing women as they're out jogging or coming home from the bus. So what he told Carly what he'd like to do is he'd like to he said, I think as a phrase us, wouldn't it be neat to actually bring a woman home? He can hold her captive and then he can kind of do with her as he wants at his leisure.
He doesn't have to worry about, you know, people coming by, and he could sort of bring her into the house and then he could do, you know, do what he wants, you know, like a silence of the lamb kind of thing. And again in her hearing that, I mean, it's obvious that you do that, you're gonna have to kill the person. And don't forget Carla is quite a bright person. She's
very well read. Uh, she's not like a dummy. I mean when she was testifying and she was talking about battered wife syndrome, she knew all the symptoms or all the you know, all the all the science. She had them all memorized. She'd read every textbook on battered wife syndrome. So she her testimony came across as so phony. It just like to this day, you can tell it, you know when it's when it's contrived, and so he wanted to bring somebody home. So he kidnapped Leslie Mahaffey one night,
brought her home. Carla was sleeping and Paul brings her in and said he's got this girl here. She's blindfolded and had whatever. And Carla's is, oh, okay, and she goes back to bed. And the next day she's TechEd at Paul because he gave Leslie I think champagne out of her best classes and so she was really ticked at him for using her best china where could have broken them or something? Things right, right, you have a young with Leslie fourteen, you have a young girl's being,
you know, kidnapped and raped and murdered. And what is Carla worried about her china where because it's her fine glasses that he might break them, while while he's you know, giving her champagne. I mean it's like, you know, you sit there and you listen to this stuff and you and you think this woman should never be out of front of jail. And you know, the Crown was saying at the time, while you know, we don't think she'll ever re offend, and we're all saying in the gallery.
How the hell do you know that, like Jesus, I wouldn't want her as a neighbor.
Well, let's go back, just for our audience, that it's catching this and and woman's involvement as a co conspirator with this rape sadistic rapist, murderer or killer and his his carla, his wife, his accomplice. Now we were getting ahead of the game if we're talking about this woman at at trial and this woman being released in this person being depicted as a battered woman's in So let's just get some of the stuff out of the way before we actually get to the trial, which is, you know,
half of this amazing story is the incredible trial. Half of the shocking aspects of this whole book and this whole story are the trial. So let's just so, how did he eventually get caught. You talked about DNA, and
we all know about DNA. Now we have a sort of a perception that DNA could be tested very very quickly, but at the time DNA could be tested, but it wasn't tested very quickly, And in fact, you mentioned in your book, by the time Bernardo was connected, because first they have to whittle it down to thirty nine suspects. It took two years before that DNA sample said let's go pick up Paul Bernardo. And they didn't go pick up Paul Bernardo. What did they do with Paul Bernardo
once they knew he was a Scarborough rapist? Well, they put him under surveillance, But I mean, what was they They knew that they they had their suspect, but they still did not arrest Paul Bernardo immediately.
Their case was not It was only when he started beating her up towards the end and that she actually went to the police that that they that they closed in you know it. Uh he you know, things were breaking down in their world and and uh he was you know, he was smuggling cigarettes over the border from the US, and he wanted to be a rap singer and and his whole world was just imploding, and he just took out his anger on her and just kept
beating her up. And she eventually went, you know, she went to the police, and then then the story started coming out, and then and then they then the police moved in on him.
Well, the first thing, though, I thought was very interesting was the how she negotiated this deal. She didn't immediately go to the police. She made sure that she had checked herself into a psychiatric hospital, she had found a lawyer. She was already under the negotiations. Like you talk about.
She was not a stupid woman. Well she certainly wasn't, because she made all the right moves to protect herself when she knew everything was coming, when she knew things were going to go down anyway, she made her move, and she made it so.
She got one of the best lawyers in the area, George Walker. You know, he very sharp lawyer. I mean, he got her the deal of the century. I mean she when she first left Bernardo, she she went to stay with her relatives, right supposedly she was recuperating from all this, And then turns out she was actually going to a bar and where she met a guy and
they had to tour at affair. And then the guy was engaged and the guy's wife would eventually or the guy's wife to be as fiance, would eventually find out that he was going up with Carla Homo when her pictures, when her picture appeared in the paper, and and she
was she was shattered. And I remember she called me one night and she was very distraught because she felt that because she was, you know, because of Bernardo and having sex with all these women, that somehow that this fiance would end up you know, getting it, you know, sexually transmitted disease. And she was terrified, and she called me, she was just sobbing, and I said, well, you know a lot of times the women he raped it were mostly virgins, so you probably don't have to worry. You
should get checked. But you know, then then later at the trial we see him having sex with a prostitute from New Jersey. So then I thought, oh god, so he it was. I mean, she she You'd think that somebody who was gone through all this would probably just stay. If she was a genuine victim, she would have just stayed hidden below the radar. But in fact she wasn't. She was, you know, going out to bars and looking
to pick up guys. And one of the bars she went to was a cop bar, and you know, some of them almost picked her up until they realized who she was when there are other buddies tip tipped.
Them to that, right. So, but she had sex with that gentleman in the bar that evening first night you met him, Yep, Yeah, so she was yeah, so so much for being suicidal and depressed and distraught.
Well exactly if she was suicidal and depressant, then why is she doing that? She's running to this bar and you know, I mean the way the way the guy described it, the way the bartender there described it. I mean she was literally in the center of the dance floor with a very short skirt, no bra, tight skirt, tight sort of dress, and and just and.
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Literally ring by guys who were all drooling, and there was a surveillance team following around and just to make sure she didn't do anything really stupid. And there was a lot of cops in that bar, and when they were moving in, some of the other cops who were following her said, you know, that's Carla Amoka and they all fled. And the one fellow who she coupled up with, so you know again Paul, handsome, good looking guy, and they had this torrid affair. He didn't know what the
time who she was. I mean, he found out later, and it just that sort of a little sad, little or little sidebar to the whole whole saga that that you know, that showed that she really wasn't this poor victim.
She was, in fact, you know, just it's hard to believe that somebody would come from, you know, a very seemingly well adjusted family, and she had plenty of opportunity in her life to you know that that somewhere along the line, something went wrong with her brain and she ended up you know, I mean, she had drawn in by his by his charm, and I think that's for sure. I mean, she believed he was something that he wasn't, and then when I when she realized that he was
a sexual sadist. I mean, you could argue that that's the point that she she should have backed out of the whole thing, but for some reason she didn't, and then she just kept getting drawn in farther and farther with him until the final it was just too late and she was alone. When she was alone with Kristen French, she did not you know, she should have called the police, but she was so she knew she was sitting so deep that she would be in trouble, so she just didn't.
Now you talk about the battered woman syndrome is the defense that she presented eventually at court. Now now just to give I agree with you that she wasn't a battered woman in any sense. But at the same time, let's explain the whole story how this went, how they could depict her as a battered woman syndrome. And this is before the trial ever happened, So there is some
maneuvering behind the scenes, legal maneuvering behind the scenes. But at least some at least some evidence that they could use that she was battered was the hospital report where she was beat up with a couple of black eyes, and so she did look pretty good for the photos. At least some there was some evidence of the brutality of Paul Bernardo and the beatings.
The problem was the police when they went into the house to search it, they didn't have that. They didn't about the videotapes. They didn't find the videotapes, and the videotapes were hidden inside a potlight. And as the copper said to me later, why do you think they call them potlights? That's where you put all the dope. And the fellow the officer who reached up into the potlight to look didn't reach in far enough, and during the trial he was forever known as the short arm of
the law. And had they found Had the police found the videotapes, they wouldn't have needed her as a witness. I mean, they have the evidence right there. They don't really they didn't really need her, but they didn't have the tapes at the time. You know, his lawyer got them later and didn't turn them over right away, and there was a whole controversy over that, but eventually the
police got the videotapes. All that time, they had already made the deal with her, but the deal was, they had the deal, but if she'd done anything, she'd done anything that they hadn't told her about, the deal would be negated. But then later on she admitted that, yeah, she was involved in another sexual assault of another young woman at the house, but she you know, blew that one away as she didn't remember all the details or
something like that. And so you know, the deal, the deal that never should have been made, was kept and it just sort of you know, capture the whole trial and the whole thing was pass officer as the battered wife. And I don't think anybody believed that theory.
I mean, now you talk about the videotapes, though there's I think there's some other culprits to blame here. We haven't gone too much into the bungling police. How many times people reported Bernardo, we won't we won't labor labor that because it's easy in hindsight to criticize the police. But I think that there is some criticism to be had for this deal with the devil and and and it hinges on this her being depicted as a battered
woman under this battered woman syndrome. So the thing is, when we also talk about these videotapes, you say, well, we never would have needed that deal. They would have not had to give her a sweetheart deal, which was two manslaughters five years a piece, and then two years in the addition for the act accidental death of her sister, uh the other any other crimes that were supposed to have happened, she would have to be disclose those. And that's what you just refer to this woman that oh yeah,
I remember it. It's coming back in phases, but my mind prevents me from recalling all the all the details. It's like, okay, great, another another fanciful tale. But the thing is what you talked about the videotapes. The police didn't find the videotapes. But who found the videotapes and why was the evidence of the videotapes suppressed enabling Carlo Hamel because they get this deal of the century.
Well, the videotapes were in a potlight and the police spent I don't know weeks if not months going through the house, and you know, they often said they were gonna tear the house apart find any scrap of evidence. Well, the major evidence they didn't find. So after the you know, after the search warrn't expired, Bernardo tells his lawyer Ken Murray about tapes. They go in the house, they find the tapes, Murray keeps them. And then here's where you
have a very difficult situation for a lawyer. Do I do I turn over the most decriminating piece of evidence against my client or do I keep them? And he sat on them for the longest time, and eventually they got turned over. By that time, the deal had already been struck. Murray was eventually charged and then he was you know, he was never really convicted of anything, and that whole thing kind of went away.
And why did he hold onto the tape though? What was what was the logic of holding onto the tapes.
Well, it was the most incriminating piece of evidence against this client. I mean, there's Bernardo with the victims, and what is it. It's a dilemma for a lawyer. Do you turn over the evidence that's going to convict your client or going to hang your clients? So he he he eventually, I think he eventually sought out some legal advice and eventually it was disclosed.
But he he.
Hung on him, hung on to him for a long time, and criticism was he probably should have turned them over right away. But certainly then you can argue, well, the police were in the house for I don't know what three months or something and they didn't find the tape, so then he had them. So was he under any obligation to turn this incriminating evidence over to the police.
Well, he had the opportunity to seek legal advice, which would have been confidential legal advice. So he didn't do that immediately. He held on and I think there's at least in your book, it seems to be a little bit of an overlap. Sure, he decided to give them up, but he was also negotiating with John Rosen at exactly the same time. John ros coincidentally says, oh, I'm going to use these tapes to our advantage. You see what I'm saying. Something could be said about that overlap. Did
he talk to John Rosen? And John Rosen say hey, you know, listen, I've done one hundred murders and you have done a few. I know how to take you know. At least he knew what evidence was going to be given to the Crown Attorney.
And then when Rosen got them and he realized what they were and how horrific to where he just there was no doubt in his mind he had to turn him over.
I mean, it was no but he's doing that out of legality, though he knew that anybody that holds onto these tapes is going to be in serious trouble.
You're legally yeah, you're basically suppressing the key evidence in a major murder case.
And it's physical evidence. It's physical evidence becomes even though it's a documentary evidence because it speaks to all these things. It becomes physical evidence becomes very important evidence.
I mean, the police were there, and it's it's not as if the police didn't know that there was evidence in the house. I mean, they had the house under surveillance, and I know I sat outside that house for weeks on end, just watching them go in and out and tearing it apart. And the fact that they missed the key piece of evidence was just astounding. I mean, you cannot.
You know, it's always easy to criticize the police after the fact, but in this case, well, and you know, had they had the tapes, they wouldn't have needed Carla. And but you know, she already had the deal, and then and then even when she admitted other crimes, they still kept the deal. There was some it just it was baffling to us. It just none of it actually
made sense. I mean, it was kind of a case that you're thinking, this is this is an embarrassing this is an embarrassed this is like what it's I was reading a website before I talked to you. It was the worst case of jurisprudence in Canadian history or something.
It was.
It was just truly awful. Truly the worst deal in Canadian jurisprudence is of the.
Speaking speaking of Carla hamalcan her deal, and her deal was to testify against her husband. How did she do? I know that you talk about in your book, It was incredible to me, having been involved in a trial myself. Well, of course this is a much bigger trial, much more important that they spent hundreds and hundreds of hours or hundreds of hours, will say, in preparing her for the
difficult crime examination. There's a direct examination for people that don't know where the prosecution asked you questions, But much more difficult is when the defense sets upon you and cross examination asked you questions.
So how did she do well when she she was a crown witness and in their chief crown witness, so you would think, and in most cases the chief crown witness is going to be treated very tenderly or you know, they're going to be given the benefit of doubt, they're going to be helped through and and in Carla's case, well,
how graphic do I have to be here? There was two twenty seven inch screens in the courtroom in front of us, right, And the first day Carla was on the stand, she was, you know, the crown's witness, and Ray Hulahn was there and he played a videotape and the videotape was a naked Carla Hamoka pleasure in herself and It went on for I don't know, like ten minutes.
She was totally naked, and Carla looked at Ray hula han, Carla has this had this habit of not moving her head, just moving her eyes sideways, and the books could kill he was a dead guy. I mean, she was just furious. And then Ray said, it was one of the only time in the whole trial that you laughed. He said to her, misschoola hand or sorry, miss Hamoka, what if anything are you doing on this videotape? And I tell you we sat to her and we started, some of
us started. We couldn't we couldn't help it, like, what do you think she's doing? Ray, She's you know, it's obvious. And so it kind of went downhill from there. I mean, here here is the Crown attacking there, literally attacking their
their chief witness. So when when Rosen got ahold of her, just you know, she she you know, she she had all that, she knew all the right things to say about you know, how she was battered and this and that she like she it sounded like she'd read every single textbook going And you know, sometimes when you when you see what this is understanding, you can tell you can almost you can hear the sincerity in their tone.
They're they're just they talk, they make mistakes, they don't know if anything exactly, but she was so well coached and rehearsed it just sounded too phony by half, and you know it just uh what can I say? It was a farce? I mean really it was just she should have she should she just you know, she should still be in jail.
Really, But to give it, to give her a little bit of credit, she was on the stand for sixteen days. Yes, it was nine days in nine days in uh, I think, in in direct examination and seven and cross examination. So was she looking like? Was she looking like Barbie when she went to court? Though? What was she looking like? What was what was the reaction from people in in the courtroom about her sexiness and her allure?
The artists probably described it best. There was about six artists there and they were very talented people, and none of them could capture her face, and they were all commenting on it like everything about her was elusive. She was interviewed by about a dozen psychiatrists and they couldn't seem to get a handle on her true character either, you know, like sometimes you know, this guy's a complete nutbar or he's a good guy who just went wrong.
But they just couldn't Nobody could quite get a handle on what kind of person she really was. From the sketch artists who couldn't really seem to draw her, to the psychiatrist who couldn't really quite get a handle on her. She was very She wasn't She wasn't like an extreme on either side. She was sort of a blur somewhere in the middle, like you could see some of her reasons, but then the things she did were inexcusable. But on the other hand, she you know, it was kind of like.
You were.
It was, I mean, with him, with him on the stand, it was it was he got up on the stand and he actually thought in his mind, you know, in his narcissic mind, he thought that he was going to talk sweet talk the jury into showing that she had done the murders. And it wasn't him at all. And he got up there, and he was very expressive with his hands, and he was talking quite you know, openly,
and just very seemed very alive. And and then as as you know, as the trial wore on and as he as the jurors as the scowls of the jurors got to him, you know, was later on on the stand, he was just he was barely you could barely hear him speak. He was just he knew he was. He was done like dinner. But that, I mean, that was Paul Bernardo. He he thought he could probably talk his way out of it.
Do you think his lawyer advised him to go on the stand? They normally don't.
Yeah, but I think in this case, because he wanted to blame Carla for the murders, it.
Was the only way.
Yeah, well how else can you do it? You know, it was the only way. It was, I mean a total long shot. And nobody believed it for a minute. I mean, I mean nobody believed that at all. And I mean he so I guess it was a question what has he got to lose? And so yeah, it was.
And and the thing is it was it was a victory for the prosecute because he was given a first degree murder, which make sure that he doesn't have a parole eligibility for twenty five years.
And he's like, yeah, he's also declared a dangerous offender, which means that he could be jailed indefinitely and that you know, his case can come up for review every I don't know, whatever was three or four years. But when I went to the prison there, one of the people I talked to Stadio he'll live, grow old, and die where he is now. And I mean where he is now is enough. I mean I saw his area, I saw his cell, and but where me. I'd rather take a needle in the arm than live like that.
I mean, he's got his just rewards. He's so this is a guy who loved to travel all all over the States, all around, you know, all over the place. He loved to, you know, go out and be the big shot guy, spend a lot of money, the big rap star kind of guy. And now he's in the cell that's about three paces long by arms, your wingspan of your arms wide, and the smell in there would just it would knock you out. It's like a hundred
dead bodies. It's just a stension because there's I think there's like two dozen guys in there, and I don't think any of them have ever showered in years. It was quite a quite a place. So he's quite fitting.
So he's so he's in segregation as well, So he's not any general population. He's reviled criminal and he's in like you say, with you say a dozen or two dozen guys, and that's it.
It's a it's a special winging. And on the outside doors of the winging, like there's iron bars, but there's plexiglass on the outside or on the iron bars on the outside. And I asked my tour guide why the iron or why the plexit? He said, well, that's because the other prisoners when they walk by, these are the most vial of creatures because they've you know, they've raped and killed children, so they always throw stuff at them.
And when you walk into into his range, there's a plexiglass shield over the there's two or three guards there who monitor them twenty four to seven on close circuit to make sure they don't harm themselves. And over them is a plexiglass shield. And I said to my tur guide, why the plexiglass shield? And just as I did that, or said that, a volley of fecal matter came hurling out of one of themselves inside Bernardo. And that's what
they do to amuse themselves. They collect their fecal matter and throw it out the guards, but they hit the guards that actually hits the shield and kind of just drips down to the floor. And he was in there and basically he's you know, they do get they do get out there their allowed yard, they have their own private little yard. There's also a house on there inside the prison where you can have conjugal visits. And supposedly there's some woman who is still going to visit him.
His family can visit him.
You're kidding me.
I wish I were. I wish I were, so I didn't real the.
Conjugal visits for for for everybody. Are you sure that he well has the opportunity for conjugal visits because.
There's you're you're out stay in this house. There's actually I think there's two houses in there, like a little small little house right inside the prison.
Mm hm.
And you're allowed free use of the house. So I mean, if if your wife or your came, presumably you could have conjugal visits. And I mean I forgot inside the house. But if he does, I think his parents were visiting. So but there was some woman supposedly trying to visit him. I you know, I don't know. I just never followed it up. After I saw where he was, I thought, you know, it's it's very fitting that he's he'll spend the rest of his life in in that in that in that hole.
Well, let's let's let's talk about one thing I think for our American audience, and I find it just as a person that came late to this. You know that the changes in our laws, but when you talk about, uh, you talk about the dangerous offender designation, he's only a dangerous offender designation because of the rapes. He's not he couldn't be considered a dangerous of because of the murders? Am I not correct on that?
Yeah, you're.
To me, that's ridiculous. You know that he would have a parole hearing, I think to our audience in America and other jurisdictions, seems absurd as well.
What do you mean?
And the reason for that is you explained in your book as well. We have something where we don't have consecutive sentences. We give concurrent sentences. So really, no matter how many people you kill, if you're Robert Pickton, you still get a parole hearing after twenty five years.
Unbelievably, Yeah, it is unbelievable, U, danger dangerous fender. You. I interviewed a fellow in time at Pentatanguishing, that's where they keep them, and he had killed three people, and he said, had he pled guilty for murder first to be murder, he would have got life twenty five and he probably would have been out. But what he did was he pled not guilty by reason of insanity, and
they declared him a dangerous offender. And basically that gives you the system the right to jail somebody indefinitely, like they have hearings ever, you know, every three years or something, and and if they feel in interviewing the guy that he's still a risk, then they can block any parole. So even if he's done twenty five, say he'll he still is not going to get out. I mean, he
has to clear the dangerous offender. The panel at the dangerous offendal hearing have to be convinced he's not a danger. And how could you somebody like Bernardo, how could you say he's not a danger, so he'll never get out. So I guess it's that's the Canadian way of keeping somebody locked up forever, you know, rather I you know, I know, in the States you get like six hundred years. He would have got like six hundred years for this
and never get out. But here it's you know, life with parole after he can actually apply after fifteen years too, the faint opola as they call it. Yeah, yeah, it's for somebody like that should never be out.
And now talk about rehabilitation.
Now we have Carla. Now let's get back to Carla, because the story doesn't end here yet. You figure, oh, he's locked up, Well what about his partner? She gets twelve years, But really in Canadian law, we would she
would be automatically out without parole in eight years. And what I thought was really fascinating about your book you talk about that she said at trial that the deal was that if she had the twelve year sentence, they wouldn't Now you can correct me on this one, because I want to know a little bit more about this. That they wouldn't oppose the authorities wouldn't oppose her being released after four years. Now do you remember anything about that.
I know it's a long time ago, but that's what you said in your book, that she had said that the authorities. Now I don't know if the authorities mean the police, because a parole board obviously is a separate entity.
Yes, but at least at least well, well, what happens is you have a hearing, and if the police come forward or the prosecutors come forward, and they say, well, we have a strong case by she should be kept up.
She should not get parole. That would obviously carry a lot of weight and at the hearing, and if it's safe, say if it's only the well not only, but it's say if it's the family of the victims coming forward, well, they may not have as much weight, They may not carry as much weight at the hearings as as the prosecutors or the police would have. So they by saying that, what they were saying was that that would you know, when her parole hearing comes up, We're not going to
get involved. We're gonna step back, We're gonna you know, you've done your time, your four years, and we're not going.
To raise Isn't that remarkable too?
Though?
It's just the deal just keeps getting better and better.
All I mean when we heard that, I mean again, like both of us who were covering this, we were infuriated, Like we were infuriated when when we heard what something came up in court from the prosecutor's side that we don't think she's a danger to offend again, Like, how the hell would you know that? I remember, I remember I either blurted it out in courtroom or one of
the other reporters did. And I think you have to shut down the trial or something for because we were just furious, like, how the hell would you know that? I mean, how could you say that about this person who set up her sister to be raped or sexually assaulted and died, and there when two women were two young girls were brutalized and murdered.
I mean, it's not an appropriate thing to say. I think. I think it's incredible when I hear that they're unlikely to reoffend. Now, let's get back that's unlikely. Let's get back to unlikely to reoffend. Now. She is supposed to get out in eight years, but the public hears through the media again, the media breaks some stories about her partying in jail, and so she can't. The only reason she can't get out after eight years is because there's a public outcry that what she's doing in there and
what the hell? So it's her own deeds and thanks to the media, and she has to stay in there for another four years, thankfully, but she gets out. Tell us a little bit about just you know, the Canadian government tried to keep her in. Tell us just to give us the epitaph on or at least the latest on Carla where she is now, what happened to her? And you know, thanks to rehabilitation Canadian style.
Uh well, we when we got word that she was close to getting out, needless to say, there was about thirty five or forty reporters staking out the prison there up in Quebec, and she managed to sneak by us, and we were, you know, like she was given special treatment. And usually if a prisoner, you know, they would just have to leave the institution, walk to the bus stopice some of them do, or else get picked up by
family and we'd see him in the car. But she managed to sneak out, and she weren't to work for a fellow there in Quebec. And then then she got married and I kind of I was sort of there staking out the prison and we we totally she totally got bias and you know, we're there, which in itself was kind of a you know me, it's all angry because you know, like why is she getting again special sort of treatment. She was afraid for her life, All these death threats were against her, you know, so I
guess maybe I think maybe that was their reasoning. We have to sort of ensure her safety until she's off the prison ground, so we'll, you know, we'll kind of quietly make sure she gets out of here so nobody,
nobody knows. And to us that was annoying, say the least, it was a total bs And she got she got married, and I mean she has a child too, right yeah, And I mean I haven't I know, I'm in contact with some people who have websites on whereas Carla and I. I was talking to some of them not recently, and last I heard, I heard she'd moved to the Caribbean or something like that. And I have to admit I just I kind of I kind of lost track of
her after after she got out of jail. I just to tell you that, I mean, the woman should she should be still in prison and she never should have got out. And it's kind of like a story that you want to forget and and for you know, for the longest time. I tried to forget, but you know, it's hard to walk away from it because there were so many things about it that were so unusual that do.
You blame Do you blame the judicial system for its part of this? Do you think they're culpable in any way? That's everything from the police, to the to her lawyer, to to murray the Bernardo's layer discovered the tapes and suppressed them. Was was it a fiasco in many in many aspects or was it just let's just focus on the two killers.
Well, they wanted to make sure they had Bernardo. They wanted to make sure I mean, what did they have they? I mean, did they have a lot of evidence from the house I can't recall and I'm not a hell
of a lot. And who did they have? They had Carla, you know, and they didn't have the tapes, so they needed Carla, and once they got into that situation where they needed her, things just kind of you know, had they I mean, it goes right back to when they first when the woman, when the schedu artist did the incredible likeness of him, based on the eyewitness of one of the Scarborough rape victims, had had they had they kept them, or you know, they took his DNA and
had the crime lab processed it, you know, like in two weeks instead of like, what was it, two years, had they had they had they processed it, well, we wouldn't even be talking here because he would have been he would have been caught. And it just it just went from bad to worse. You know, they missed the videotapes in the house. They made they made the deal with her. She broke the deal was pretty obvious. They broke it. She broke it. But then they didn't. They didn't.
They were looking they were looking for a GM car. They were looking for.
Yeah, I mean and that, you know, I thought about that a lot too. And I mean when she was when Kristin French was abducted, I mean, Carlo, she Kristin was a very careful young woman. She never would have gone anywhere. She actually told a lot of her friends because there was another woman had gone missing there and another one had died mysterious, and she told her friends, you know, don't ever talk to strangers. They were all when I talked to them, they were all very clear
that she was very careful. Yet when she was walking home, it was Carla acting as its klutz with the with the roadmap and and pulling out this roadmap on the hood, and not Carla, who lived in Saint Catherine's her entire life, asking Kristin French for directions in Saint Catherines. Of course, you know, Kristin French didn't the victim didn't know that Carla lived there her whole life. There she is asking for directions and that was the only reason they got
Kristin French close to the car. And then when they got her in the car, who was holding her down while Bernardo was driving, Well it was Carla, I mean, you know, she was holding her down. And police, well, they had to go on eyewitnesses the person there thought was a Camaro and it was actually what was a that's in that's in uh three hundred SX And I don't think they look alike. But you know, you can criticize the police for that, but they didn't have anything
else to go on. Perhaps in hindsight, and if they weren't one hundred percent on the description of the car, they shouldn't have put out the Camaro. And what happened was all the Camaro users and drivers and Saint Catherines were immediately suspected. So what they did is they all banded together and they had this massive drive downtown saying, you know, we're we didn't kidnapper, We're innocent. We want
to help the police in any way we can. So you had a whole cavalcade of Camaro drivers driving through Saint Catherines claiming their innocence, because anytime you saw a Camaro the person was, you know, immediately suspected as being the abductor of Christian French. And in fact, you know, Bernardo never drove a Camaro.
So I mean, well, Paul, I mean, Nick, we've got we've got to wrap this up. I know we'd gone for a long time. I want to thank you very much. So I want to tell our audience that you've been listening to Nick Pron. He's the author veteran journalist and author and of his incredible book Lethal Marriage, The Uncensored Truth behind the crimes of Carlo Malcom Paul Bernardo. Thank you very much, Nick Pron for a great interview. Uh and have yourself a good evening.
Thank you. Okay, good night.
You've been listening to the program, You've been listen to the program True Murder with your host Dan Zupansky, have yourself a good evening, Good night,