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Good Luck, you are now listening to True Murder The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Gacy Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker, Dck. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky. Good Evening.
This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about them. Kim Cantrell has been reading true crime for twenty plus years, becoming hook after checking out a true crime story from her high school library. Her interest in the judicial system led to a career as a legal secretary, then on to private investigations until
two thousand and two. Kim decided to expose herself as a fan of this very closeted genre when she began reviewing on Amazon in two thousand and six, quickly rising to a top reviewer rank. Seeing the growing intensity of the genre and the loyalty of its readers, coupled with the difficulty of fans finding books, she decided it was time to take it all to a new level with a site dedicated just to true crime books, What's new, Who's new, and the classics otherwise long forgotten true crime
book reviews with special guests. Kim Cantrell, thank you very much for green to this interview, and welcome to the program. Kim Cantrell, Thank you, Dan, thank you well, Thank you very much. It's a big thrill. I've had reruns rebroadcast shows in the summer because I found it very hard to get a hold of people, and people have lives in the summer, I find even myself. So this is
my first live program here in the fall lineup. So I think it's a really special program because I think a lot of people who read True Murder know who you are, rely on your true crime book reviews, and you're doing an incredible service. So I really want to I think this is going to be exciting program for a lot of people that are out there and are avid true crime book fans, and I think they'll know
who you are and appreciate this interview. Now. First off, first off, I want to ask you if you can remember what was that first true crime book that really affected you way back over twenty years ago.
The very first one that I read was small sacrifices by An Rule that would have been well, let's not side the year. It indite me a little bit there, but of course that was a long time ago. But you know the story of Diane downs who murdered her children, right, she actually had one child survive.
It's been a lot.
Of years, but to the best of my recollection and uh, just being in high school and reading that that really effaced you, makes you. It gives you a brutal look at people and saying, wow, a mother, you know, can do this to her children.
Were you familiar with the story before you read the book?
I wasn't. I wasn't, uh not at all. Had no idea.
I had no idea who Diane Downes was, who Anne Rule was, had really even no concept of what true crime was. Just saw it on the shelf, read the back cover and said that sounds interesting, and then that's where.
It all began.
Geez, that's that's the heck of a book to get started with Anne Rule and small sacrifice. No wonder you got hooked on true crime.
It didn't.
It's like much.
Yeah.
Yeah, my first Ann Rule was a stranger beside me and just incredible. I was of course everyone thinks they know of these people. But when you read the full account from the masters, you know, from the really good writers, it's wow. You have no idea to.
Start to look at people differently. Yeah, you never fully trust that anyone is who they say they are.
Again.
Yeah, And the thing is what you realize with these true crime books is that you really can't. I know, everybody says, well, they don't even look like one. You can't tell otherwise. It's not just looks, it's you like, like Anne Rule proved she was working with this person, and consider that the gentleman or friend and it ends up being Ted Bundy. So how wrong can you be?
So? Right? Right?
And I mean the neighbor next door? And that's what I found in a lot of these books, that the scenarios are just so common to what we all live every day. And we think we know our neighbors. We think we know our dance teachers, we you know, we think we know the people at church or at the Boy Scouts. We think we know them, and then suddenly, wow, you know, here they are. I mean a good example
of that is Dennis Ryder, the bt K killer. He was in you know, he was a church elder, he was a boy Scout leader, highly respected member of the community, and then Luke where he is today. Yeah, and all along he was the one who was lurking, you know, and terrorizing people, and you just you true crime really shows you that you cannot really know who anyone is.
Absolutely now with back to this, to your you know, your affection for true crime here over twenty years ago, I found it very interesting. You said you became a legal secretary after that. So did did reading true do this or you was it just a confluence of evansd sort of you You were interested in the law, and so tell us about you being a legal secretary, and then did your experiences there further your interest in reading about crime at all?
Oh?
Absolutely, I don't believe that I went into being a legal secretary because I was reading through crime. I think that just kind of happened. But I have no doubt that maybe just my personality, my interest maybe caused me
to gravitate to a job like that. But definitely working I worked for an attorney here in my local hometown who he did a lot of defense work, and I just I really enjoyed that he did a lot of domestic family court that I didn't really care for, but I did enjoy the criminals, you know, And I think what I enjoyed about it was because learning how the judicial system worked, seeing how lenient we can be, seeing you know, the way let me think of how I
want to probably worth this that there truly is seems to be at least here where I am that and I think this happens a lot in America, that you have whoever has the best attorney, which is usually the high dollar attorney.
Comes out on the better end.
Sure this is I don't think our lady Justice is blind, and I know a lot would disagree with me, But when I was working there, I really enjoyed it. And what I really got fascinated by was towards the end of the time before he retired and before I left, that he had a particular case that was in the next town over where a group of six boys had abducted to other boys and had killed them and threw them off of a bridge into the lakes here, and that one really kind.
Of stepped it up.
And I never did get to see the end of that, never to get to follow that one. I'm thorry rather than throw the newspapers and everything, but just the interlegal workings of that was very, very interesting, and I think that kind of stepped me even farther into true crime.
Now, you mentioned also that you have worked in private investigations, and how did work in in this field further interest in true crime and what aspects of those books were you most interested in?
When it's worth I'm sorry, go ahead.
No, no, I'm sorry. If I if I questions confusing, I'll qualify it.
But well, okay, with private investigations, really, in all honesty, Dan, private investigations leads more to humorous boots for.
The overall work.
You find more humorous situations there.
But I did.
I think it was just again that whole gravitational thing of my personality, what I'm suited with and what I liked, and there was some interesting things that came along, but I don't know that it really spurred me on any more towards true crime. It just kind of fed a little bit more of that whole variuristic personality that comes with a true crime reader.
So there weren't so much serious private investigations that you were involved in necessarily.
There were some, but as far as anything that's really noteworthy. No. Now, like I said, anything that was noteworthy would actually be better qualified for a humorous book.
Now, you began reviewing books for Amazon, and was it that were you doing specifically true crime books for Amazon? And what made you want to do book reviews in the first place.
Well, the very first.
Thing that made me want to do true crime reviews was I had read a book. It was titled A Stranger in the Family, and it was a book that was essentially four hundred pages of a mother's whine about how her son, who was a serial rapist and had murdered one of his victims, was being treated so badly behind bars that he was all the injustices that he
was suffering, and it just really enraged me. And it was like, wait a second, this guy has raped numerous women, he has murdered one of his victims, and you're whining about how he is being treated. And I had to speak out about it. I had to say something about it.
And I just happened to land.
At Amazon and did the review, and really just it was a very amateur review, but I was angry and my fingers were flying over the keys, and I was just spewing out the anger, and from.
There it just kind of grew.
You know, I would go back and review another one, and you would have so many readers who come in and say.
Oh, you know, I felt this way, this is what you know.
I agree with you, and you have some that disagree.
Right now, this isn't my type. But it just kind of grew from there.
But I was just so outright that I had to say something.
So Amazon appreciated some of your because I've read a lot of your reviews before my contacted you. I read a lot of reviews and I was going, oh Jesus, was a little worried there, I mean, because some of your you're very passionate. You're very detailed, very comprehensive. Like I said, but not everybody gets a good review, and in fact, you're very passionate and very specific on why certain books are not, in your estimation, a good read and a worthwhile reading for your for the fans of
the site that are reading through crime. Have you had any time where you've had angry authors, you know, out of the ordinary, we'll say, I mean, obviously some people don't agree with your reviews, but if you had any incident over the years, in the last few years where somebody was especially upset and didn't agree with your review.
As far as authors, you would be surprised how many of them actually take the time to thank me for my critical reviews and say, okay, you pointed this out to me. I never considered that. Typically when I get the angry responses, it is from people who are relatives of the victim or the convicted. That's typically our their friends, their family, and they're outraged because, well, what they say is the author and by me doing the review, we're making money off of somebody else's hardship.
Oh really, you get that yourself as well.
Well, yes, yes I do, and I really really hate that when they say that. And my typical response to them is, first of all, it is a story that's out there.
But if you do not want somebody.
Making money off of the atrocities of Lost the End, you have to shut down your radio, your television, your even your fictional television shows like CSI, NCIS. You have to shut those down because those are usually spin offs of something that happened in real life. You have to shut down fictional books, which typically have some kind of
visis to something that's really happened. You know, if you really want to go the route of somebody not making money off of it, then you have to shut down everything completely, and that's just not fasible.
Yeah. I know that what you had said well as well, and I agreed with you in one of our emails. He said, you find it very unusual or very interesting when somebody criticizes someone for writing true crime or reading true crime, or like in your case, reviewing it and in their mind promoting true crime book. Whereas somebody writing a fictional book, no matter how depraved, whether it's Hannibal Lecter that that Silence of the Lambs or whatever, that
there's a that people don't criticize that. So it seems unusual for people. It makes no sense to me at all.
It doesn't to me either.
They will flop to the movies, they will watch the you know, the ten o'clock news, they'll watch CSI and HAS it has very high ratings, and they're gung ho about that. But for some reason, when it happens in real life and somebody decides to tell that story in a book form, it brings out the worst. It brings
out the worst. But I just don't let them bother me, you know, because I just I take it that they are maybe just lashing out, that they're hurt and anger and this is just one more way that's maybe a healing process for them. But I let them know, you know, this just it doesn't work this way. There's going to be people who tell the stories, whether it's your news media, your radio media, what iver.
Somebody's going to tell.
The story, and this is just one more person telling the story. And most authors I've found will type the time to at least attempt to interview friends and family to get their input on the book. They're actually very kind to them and want to type the time to interview them and talk to them and give them the opportunity to site there you know, their thoughts therapy.
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Necessary daily void wherever I lost in terms conditions eighteen plus year, but it is under it is understandable as well. Though I know that I was at the trial of the case that I was involved with. I was approached by a murder victim's father. And this person now has become a real activist and the government uses him basically because he's a good you know, he's photogenic and the cameras, you know, the media likes him and he so they
can use him politically sometimes. But he approached me at the trial and said the same thing that he was critical of me paying. I offered to pay for the information as it was the Son of Sam law where you cannot profit off a crime a notoriety of a crime. The law did pass, and of course, but still I
was still criticized. But my point was is that the people that I can understand and the people that I would not argue with are the victims, the victims parents or victims family like that, because they've just gone through this incredible thing and they want to lash out at so many different people, and unfortunately they wouldn't last showed at the judicial system. Potentially, it's better to pick a target like an author, after everyone else is exhausted. It's
just someone there. So I can understand these people that.
Authors are easier targets because you know, Okay, your picture may be on the cover of the book, but you're not sitting there behind the anchor desk every night, so it's a little different. And I do think that they a lot of times take the brunt of it when there's nobody else and somebody like me who's definitely behind the scenes take and I try to understand and let
them and just remind them. But while we're on the subject, can I ask you a question on your you mentioned you just you mentioned it about Canada just now passing a son of Sam law.
That's not way it works. That What it is is that it's like similar we have ten provinces and you have your fifty states. So right, it's stayed by state legislation and we go province by province, and for some reason, this province took till two thousand and five to draft
up legislation. And what I'll tell you, which is really very very ironic, and I could have put it in the book, but I would have had a six hundred page book, is that what happened was that I was criticized for offering him profits of the book, and I knew that the law would pass, and I knew that I would not break the law to give him any money. And thirdly, I knew in my mind if anybody was going to criticize me, that's a small amount even if I did pay him, which I wouldn't to find out
the truth. Now, what happened was is that I was criticized for that, and it did a lot of damage for my reputation as a journalist, and I can't do anything about that. But what was ironic is that EYE contacted the authorities when I found on on a website that Sidney Tierhuse was trying to profit off the notoriety of his crime directly by having three of his aboriginal paintings.
But alongside on the website was the account of the murders and dismemberment, the accounts of the horrid crimes alongside the paintings. So exactly what the law was designated for designed for, is for this clown now who has already snubbed his nose at society and the courts and the victim and everybody on earth. He is now doing it
again aboriginal art while he's in jail. Taxpayer pays for it, and then somebody's on a website trying to sell it for fifty thousand dollars, directly trying to capitalize on the notoriety of this guy's crimes. They could not prosecute for that. So you know, twenty something years after, somebody else has a state legislation that can prevent exactly this sort of
thing from happening, this province couldn't do it. And in fact, the news broadcasters that didn't want to attend the trial because it was too gory and too graphic, actually put big color photos of his paintings on their website.
So, and what amazes me, Dan, is that you will have plenty of people purchase those, but a lot of those same people that purchased those would be the ones who would frown on the true crime readers.
Well, there was ironic will I will say I've.
Seen that, and I've.
They show you and go, you write your crime, you read your crime. Wow, But hey, I've got this painting here.
But you know what, this is a collectible.
Yes, no, sure, no he What happened was there was a there was an art organization that came out to defend him and his right because they said he didn't he was not depicting any murderous event in the paintings, so they were the sting his right to paint, is right to sell his art, and the other people were
talking about that. You know what, we should encourage him to practice his art and get better, because then maybe he can, you know, make some money and then maybe pay the victims back a little bit of money, and or he at least he would have a really steady good job when he got out of jail. So this is where we are in Canada. If you think it's leading, like you said, if you think it's lenient there, we have been duped. We have been duped.
When I read in your book twenty five years then that terrifies me.
That terrifies me.
And like you said, I do I think we're lenient here and it hasn't changed my mind that we're lnient, But I will say we're not as lenient.
As Canada to do what he did and then to be too eligible.
To walk away in twenty five years, okay, And then.
Where do I believe that you're going to.
Rehabilitate him someone like Sidney Pierius. You cannot weighabilitate.
Well, that's see. The thing is what happened, though, is that if I didn't come into the picture, everything would have been downplayed, and everything would have been attributed to alcohol, and they would have trotted out his again unsubstantiated history of abuse from his adopted family, no substantiated evidence of anything but just the killer's word for it we've got to take. And so what would have happened is that a lot of the information, like the vast majority of
the information, never would have come out. It just it would have been downplayed that the body was reassembled in the bathtub. Well it was, it was the body was neatly stacked, is the way they wrote it in the media. And if they didn't have those sensationalistic letters and those snippets from those letters, they would have had nothing. They wouldn't they wouldn't have had anything, and.
Then he probably would have walked in the ten years.
He would have either received he would have received either a manslaughter sentence, which because we were at that time up till just recently, we would have double time credit for pre trial custody. He would have walked out with time served. He would have been out in five years with a manslaughter conviction and his sentence finished with, or
he would have been convicted of second ark murder. But because we would have listened to a sob story, he would have likely gotten ten or twelve years till parole eligibility. And in this country, they're already letting you out on passes to walk around and go to the mall after about seven years in anticipation of your first parole eligibility. And this is killers I got involved in this a long time ago because I was just outraged what was going on. I mean, I don't care what happens with
non serious crime. I don't really care. I don't care what Canada does with people who just break windows or vandalism, but I care what they do with the most serious criminals.
And it's who murder, right bliss children?
Sure?
Those? Yeah, yeah, And that's what yeah, I'm sorry.
I mean I have to agree with you, sire that your vandalizers, even your people who are you know, smoking pot, don't care.
Let's take care of the Yeah, there's not enough money. As you realize, there's not enough money. And like in America, I watch I watch American law and I'm a big fan of it, and I see what you're talking about. The difference in Canada and in the United States is that when a murderer is charged in this country, he's able to apply for what's called legal aid. And with legal aid, the most experienced lawyer in the English speaking world, which is Greg Rotsky, will take your case in this province,
maybe another bordering province. He'll travel around, people will reques left him and if he will take the legal aid, which is a reduced rate from the three hundred or four hundred dollars these guys can charge per hour, he then will defend you and will use all the government resources. You talk about not having the money or the resources, or the experience or the that's what these guys have. These guys, they have a full staff. Canada does not want to even though they have, they do not want
to prosecute and sentence people wrongly convict people. So if you think it's a little too easy to convict some people in the US with the ineffective lawyers, the somewhat inexperienced lawyers, less resources, you know, just completely different. It's a completely different system. But you do have that, you do have that system where we do have we're going the other way in terms of protecting people to the
utmost and spending those resources on a few people. The picked in trial alone, for example, was seventy million dollars. So what will happen now is that the police screwed up and when they had the opportunity to stop this guy's reign of terror, they screwed up and didn't arrest him. He could have been charged for attempted murder. They could have had the warrant to go out this property would
save thirteen william women's lives. Now, what will happen after the seventy million is they'll have an inquiry which will cost about fifteen or twenty million and nothing will change. But that's the kind of money we have for investigations here, and that's absolutely of start. Yes, it really gives.
And all I can say is if I ever feel the need to commit a serious crime. I'm going to go over the border.
Because I stand a better chance over the Absolutely, absolutely, your.
Attorney, I have a much better chance of getting out.
Wow.
That just amizes me.
And that's what I really enjoyed about reading your book is because I did get to learn so much about Canada and the system. And it's like, you know, you all are just right above us. I mean, it's just you're right there, You're our neighbors to the north.
What it is though, is it a good exult though, for you all to set.
Your people for you in And I know this is a two white story because we set I'm free to over here. But thinking about somebody like Sidney Tierhuse being set for a and that he could come here, that is scary.
I don't care how you put it. It's just absolutely terrifying.
Well see, that's my whole mission with this book, and I felt it was a faithful turn of events that I fell into that opportunity. Was that the almost automatic reduction of murder to manslaughter. Then manslaughter being so low a sentence is just the definition of injustice. Because in America, you have a first degree murder, a second degree murder.
You have three degrees of manslaughter. So there's different degrees and different sentences are available, but you do not u for number one, you do have life sentences available, life without any chance of parole. You have consecutive sentences. We don't have those even for murder. You the murder one, your first degree murder can happen from a guy waiting outside. That that's the driver for some people that we're going to rob somebody, and in the robbery, someone dies. We
don't have laws like that. You start taking all those changes, and you start seeing that what is considered a cold blooded, psychopathic killer is out here in a few years. And that's what's scary to me. Yeah, and so, and that's a liberal that's a liberal way of thinking, because and I am a liberal, which is which is scary to me.
But these people are so out of time that they don't realize that they're the liberal attitude that they're giving to people, first time offenders, non serious offenders, you know, victimless crime. Will say, but they're still applying that kind of liberal attitude. And we can fix everybody and help everybody, and we can. All we have to do is go back into their childhood. I mean, really, there are some people you just can't fix. And it's just the word
rehabilitation does not apply in America. I've been told that America experimented with liberal sentences and lenient sentences and rehabilitation. It just doesn't work. There are certain segment of a population, a very very small population, that needs to be incarcerated forever. It's just I'm sorry, that's just the way it is.
That's exactly how it is.
And in writing these books, it just feels for me every time you write about the Ted Bundys, they Kenneth mcduffs, the Sydney tears Uses, just to name a few, you realize, Wow, there are some serious nut jobs out here, and no matter what you do, they're going to offend again, over and over and over. They're not going to stop. And I mean it's an unpopular opinion, but I am a supporter of the death penalty here because there are.
Just some that you cannot.
You can't fix them, you can't undone. It can undo what mommy and daddy did, what the neighbor next door did, And I'm very very sorry that their life started out the way that it did, or those things happened. I'm very very sorry, and I wish that they'd had the opportunity had a better life, at a different life, but unfortunately they didn't.
That was the.
Cards that fate dealt, and so you can't change it. But there's the rest of society here, there's me, my family, my children. I can't take the risk of being out there and sometimes, unfortunately that means the death penalty.
Well, you know, the only problem is with the death penalty is that there's so much opposition to it that it takes a.
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No perchess necessary. I believe we're privited by loss. He terms and conditions eighteen plus so long to execute anyone. They rush execution in certain states within effective counsel. And so what they are doing is it's just like they have here. They've convicted people, wrongly convicted people, and people have spend twenty five years in jail. There has to be some kind of overhaul of that system. But I really don't think the death penalty is going to happen
more so in the US. It will never happen in Canada again. So really, what I think the best thing to do is ensure in every state, because you don't really have that. You have you have people getting life sentences in certain states, and then it's overcrowded, they let them out, you know, and like you say, you have you have a slick lawyer, and you have in a smaller place than a person has the means to afford
a really good lawyer. And you're going up against, you know, a county that doesn't have much money, and you're fighting a super experienced lawyer with resources from that from their client.
You know.
So you know, there's some things that they could take you.
I think that there's just really no happy medium. I mean, I'm glad for a system here that allows the opportunity.
To at least.
You know, it goes through the process that there is plenty of time there, I mean, and somewhere like Texas, I mean, you've got an average of nine years. Where somewhere like Tennessee, our people sit here for thirty years on death row, you know, and it's all the process of appeals, but the longer. But I think that with the NA science being out there.
That's gonna help us.
And I've just got to say, I gotta be honest. And like I said, I know this is a very unpopular opinion, but when somebody is caught.
Red handed right there, you did it. We saw you. You know, thirty witnesses saw you. You were busted. Why waste our time? There were dishes, brutal people see you. You know. The thing is that's unpopular. You know.
The thing is that you see I see a lot of American broadcasting. There's a lot of people the victims that say, you know, or there are some anyway that say, I forgive this person. I don't want the death funely. But I think in American courts they aren't listening more to the jury. You're listening more to the public. And you're listening you're listening to public sentiment. And that's what's I can see it in the in the in the
juries that are that are selected. In the US, they take a lot of crimes to the jury with less evidence, and that they wouldn't even lay the charges here. And those people view the evidence and uh follow their conscience and make make their decisions. But I think the American people, if you see, like what's what's astounding to us is in America, In Canada VERSUS America, we have about one tenth your your murder rate, Like even a place like
Winnipeg is murder capital of Canada. We have about one tenth of say Detroit or Chicago or something like that. So the thing is is that we have not yet. And that's why, that's why Canadians do not want to know about the Picton story. They really don't want to know about the Tierty story. They didn't want to know about the Olson Clifford Olson that killed ten kids. They
don't Bernardo and Homolkase. They didn't read that book. Americans wrote read that book because these people Canadians do not want to believe for a second that we are like Americans. We think we're so much different, but yet our crimes.
But there's a lot of similarities.
And sure, I think I think Americans or maybe just you know, because Americans have been the later as far as you know, the raider numbers the number of authors in Corey crime. I mean here in America we're still, as I said, you know, a closeted genre where people go, oh, you read that. But I have met so many people in Canada and Australia, Germany that are like, you know, it's just not really accepted here. I really, you know, people look down on me, they criticized me.
But here's the thing.
Everywhere, no matter where, the stories are there, because.
You'll find it on the blogs, you'll find it in just.
The stories that people tell, you know, in a few books here and there. The killers are everywhere. It's just I don't think anybody's ficing it so much. And maybe it just isn't outfire because what's not in the books and the people aren't reading it as much. And when somebody likes you, like you write the book, you're.
Causing them to fight it. Well the rest of the time we can go, ah, you know, it's not fire.
Well, you know, the thing is America really is the true crime market of the world. I mean it is the biggest true crime market there is. England has a pretty sensational sensationalistic media as well, sort of tabloid esque, and they do report on stuff, and they do have harsh sentences for pedophilia, and they and that is you know, stock in trade of their papers. And I'm sure, and I know not matter of factly, but I pretty well know that England has a pretty thriving true crime market.
We've got a lot of killers there, a lot of famous killers.
They are next to.
Us, and they are really enjoying their true crime books. And I think that over the last several years they have really just broke into it, you know, full force, full steam ahead. You know, they're really getting into it. And I tell you what, I really I think that Australia.
Is right behind them.
Sure, I think that's I think that's the third one. I think that even though we've got Canada to the north and Mexico to the south, I don't think even y'all are coming up as quickly as these folks are. It seems to be, you know, the UK, and then we've got Australia that's right behind them, and.
They're just they're running, they're they're catching up and they're eager to get a hold of the books.
They want to know, where can we find this?
Where can we find that?
You know?
And they're excited and they're starting to face it, and that may make a difference in how people, I don't know, you know, maybe Americans. You know, we are a country of people who were a little rebellious to begin with, you know, coming over here from England, you know, refusing the the you know, King George and everything, saying all right, we're out of here.
So you know, we might just be a rebellious people to begin.
With, and so that could you know, explain it while we are where we are today. But really, I mean, I'm telling you the rest of the world is really catching up and really starting to pay attention to what's going on, and we might say even more you know, Ted Bundy's and all of them everywhere, and they may be more in the books you know where we've before kind of being kept away. And really it's just like that US Americans are over here running wild.
No. You can see true both true crime books like Lethal Intent, which was geez It was a different title something Damsel Damsel of Death or Geez I can't remember, but Alien Warner you alread it as Leithe only ten.
I didn't realize it had another title, but.
Yeah, yeah, I interviewed I interviewed Sue Russell, and it was this Damsel of Death something along those lines. A pretty appropriate title over there as well. But it was released in both places. So I think what you're going to do is when you get charismatic killers. And you've probably reviewed some of Philip Carlo's books, but the Nightstalker again, some of the classics. I mean, those those stories resonate everywhere, I don't care where you are, and and America has
produced these world Yeah. Absolutely.
Now as we continue to grow, you know, become more global with the Internet and everything, I really think, you know, that's wild just getting it on out there.
Yeah, you've got You've got stuff like True Crime Library too that does a really good job of doing synopsis and really covering all of the you know, if you whatever true crime you ever thought of, were the craziest crimes and the most bizarre and outrageous and biggest serial killers, most famous, they have it all. So it really is getting to be pretty easy to access these stories and you're you're reading new and crazier ones all the time.
So it's very interesting. So now getting back to your true crime book reviews, because that's what.
We're here for.
We got a little of course, there were yeah little What year did you start up true crime book reviews and what was your goal?
Well?
I did not actually start turn crime book Reviews dot Com until two thousand and nine, and it was just a thing then. Of I was doing it at Amazon, getting a lot of email, a lot of questions, and I thought, let's put this in a place where it's more out there, where people can talk about it more, you know, the more commenting, more I could put more the updates, That's what I was striving for because people
absolutely love updates. So they want to know what are the families doing, What are you know, if.
It's a surviving victim, what do they do? Where's the killer right now? Are they are they still behind bars? Are they out? You know where they're at? They love the updates.
So I really wanted a place that I could put all that and of course with Amazon, you know, you just you can't get it all there, sure, So I wanted to give a place, one central location that it's just nothing but true crime books, And here's the opportunity for you to find what you're looking for. And I'll be perfectly on a stand to it. It's an easy way.
For me to keep up with what I've read to.
You go to read as many as I have every time, and then you go that sounds familiar.
Have I read that one? I can just do an easy search database. You know, Wow, there it is. Okay, Yeah, I read that one.
That's great. How many books have you have you read in since?
Well?
How many books have you added to your true crime book reviews? How many actual reviews are there's.
Over the last time I've done there was over three hundred of them. Wow, over three hundred reviews. Yeah, wow, because a lot of them that are reviewed at my side, I didn't review at Amazon.
Every now and then I.
Try to go over there and there a review still and you know, still be active over there, because there's some really really great true crime readers over there that I associate with and everything, and a good group of people, I mean.
A very loyal group. That's how where crime fans are. We're loyal to the genre. But I enjoy talking them strugg over there.
But there's more that I do at my side than I do at Amazon. So while over there I have two hundred something reviews, you know, I'm well past three hundred, probably going on closer to the four by.
Now that's very prolific. I wasn't gonna say. We might as well get around to because I'm dying to hear what your some of your favorite true crime authors? And just let you say, because I know I have my ideas. But who are among your favorite authors and what are some of your favorite books by those authors of all time?
Oh?
Wow, your favorite?
So many favorites, but I have to say that my very most favorite has to be Jack Elson.
Yeah, me too, absolutely love it.
And I don't think that there is any one of his that I can really pick, But if I had to, I would probably.
Go with The Son. The Son.
Yeah, I would go with the Creation of a serial Killer his last book. But I've read so many of his they're all great.
Fact that one was a good to you that would you can really relate to that one because that was the killer telling the stories. Yeah, he's an absolutely fabulous author.
He was, you know, was god rest to sell.
But yeah, he has to a I mean, you'll hear a lot of people say, you know Truman Capoti, you know with in Cold Blood, and he was a wonderful author. I think he did a marvelous job. But wow, jack Elson just.
Really dug in there.
Yeah. The thing is jack Olson has criticized the Truman Capoti because of and you see it in the movie as well. He didn't take any notes and five years later he was quoting people who said, listen, I never said that. And he made composite characters very much like movie scriptwriter would do. Screenwriters would do so taking two characters and turning them into one. And so his book is well done. It's a great story, but there's a lot of fiction in it, and that's what Jack Wilson's
you know, was harping about. And a lot of people have too. So don't hold it up as a true crime classic because there's other.
Sometimes writing and where you recreate, so to speak, the dialogue that isn't so by it.
I don't help.
But when you go through such an extent as he did, when it just carries on and carries on, and it's so detailed.
And it's kind of like, hey, you know, but if it's short.
Conversations here that's fine.
You know, we all have to pull something rem memory. You kind of got to give it because I'll tell you what.
The people I've found, they love it when there's a story to it. If you can take it and turn it into a Lifetime.
Movie of the Week, they'll love it.
I can't figure that out, but I will love it. There's just kind of a flow because then you don't get just to the.
Troy crime writers. Because Troy Crome writers. We love Trey Crome.
It doesn't matter what it is. But if you want to reach out there to a few others who they don't always worry true crime, and it's the here and there.
If you give it a nice flow.
And you can turn it into a movie of the weight, they'll read it.
And I think it's because it's softer them.
And you know, the thing is about Jack Wilson. For those people listening who have never read Jack Wilson, I've ventured into reading him. He just makes every story. If you really want to start with one author, it would be Jack Wilson because he could just of course, he picks great stories. He's done the Arthur Shawcross story too. But he takes stories and because he's such a good writer, it almost seems effortless. The next thing you know you're reading.
And that's the one thing about true crime. I've read a lot of books, the true crime specifically doesn't fool around. The good true crime gets you to read the thing in a couple of days because you don't want to put the thing down. You're just what's happening next. And I don't think any shot.
Pardon me, I started to sell it doesn't matter if it's just one hundred pages or if it's five hundred pages. If within those first the first four or five pages, if you can suck it in, if you can get them in there, capture their attention, then it's going to be. Like I said, it doesn't matter one hundred pages, five hundred pages. They're gonna read it and they're not gonna put it down. And you'll hear them say plenty of times I stayed up all that and read this. I
know I've done that myself numerous times. That you just you've got to get in there and it doesn't matter because you've just got to know.
You got to find it all out.
And it's very interesting too, despite the fact that you it's a foregone conclusion, what's going to go on? And yet you're still reading the thing like there's some mystery. You know, it's very you know the ability of the author to be able to add all of this tension and and all this, you know, this drive for you to turn page after page. But at the same time, if you really just read the back of the front, you'd know what happened. But it's still your.
Compelled You have many times somebody has said to me, Dan, would you tell me what was going to happen? And my response to that is is it's a true crime.
You know what's going to happen.
I means it take a rocket signed And I think that the suspense and the threell comes with.
The how they got there? What did they do? And how did you in the background.
Let me tell you, I can't tell you how many times people say background, background, background, background, And if you can get a hold of that background is awesome, because what we want to know the majority of a serrena what makes him tick?
What makes her tick? Why did they do what they do?
You know, did you know was mommy mean to them and lock them in a closet? You know, did Daddy beat them with a belt every day, you know. Did you know Grandma beat them with a hickory stick?
You know?
I mean, what made them that way?
Are there any conceivable reasons why this guy could do this?
Is what I think people want to know exactly what we're looking for. Why, because I think date down for all of us too. We're also looking at could that be this guy over here? Could that be the lady over here? And you scrutin us and I know, and we don't cite that out well a lot because that just doesn't sound very nassil us, But we cite that among ourselves quietly, you know. I just want to know we're varwyors, is what we are really? Tree Crome writers are voyeurs.
Yeah.
The other thing after jack Olson you must have you must have some other favorite authors.
I know.
I've read a bunch of your reviews, like you said, and rule really affected you. For those persons that, yeah, first it just dropped off a truck and they're just listening now and they've never read too many true crime books. Tell us, in your opinion, some of the better writers in true crime that the better books that you've read and the authors that have written them tell us a little bit about some of your other favorites as well.
Well, let's tell them that they've got to readers for me.
But we've got to tell them that they've got to read Dan Sapaisky's books about Sydney Tirius. We got to meet in that one because while okay, now I got that plug in seriously, not really, it was a good book and I really do highly recommend it. But another one of my favorite authors has to be Catherine Casey. When it comes to looking at female authors, I.
Tell you what she's really she has come right on up.
Her books just keep getting better every time. And I really like Corey Mitchell's. He gives us what one or two a year, maybe they're really good. And William Phelps, He's he is a wonderful, wonderful writer. And Greg Olsen he does some really touching books, you know, And even though he doesn't have any relation to Jack Olson, He's still has a writing style that's very similar to it.
At least it reminds me of and you gotta wonder there maybe there's some relations.
Uh.
And and then like Ron Francell, he wrote a book.
Oh wow, now the name of it just completely slits my mind.
The Darkest Knot, Uh, that one is I must read for.
Anybody getting at at her crime.
Uh.
It's done more focused on the victims than I mean. It tells the story of the of what happened and the two guys who did it, and that's interesting. But he also really talks to you about the victims. And I think that was one that really will stay with me for a long time.
And that's the Darkest Knight by Ron Franzel. Yes, yes, okay, I think his last name is spelt f r A N s C E l L or something along those lines, the E L L.
Yes, yes, but it is absolutely one that.
Has to be read.
What about what about when you talk about when you talk about Greg Olsen? For those people that say this, because there's a fair amount of Greg Olson William Phelps. What Greg Olsen one would you recommend if you had had your brothers?
Oh, any of his? But I tell you what one I really enjoyed a Starvation Heights.
Somehow I had missed that one all this time because it's one of his older ones.
Yeah, that's very interesting.
It is, uh, and of course I'm a history buff two, but it was it was interesting. It was I won't say too much, but wow, really people who call themselves doctors back in nineteen hundreds early nineteen hundreds.
Wow.
Yeah, it's a different true crime book, but it's still it's an incredible crime.
So yeah. Yeah.
And his last one that came out, A Twisted Faith. Tell you what, that one gets a lot of debate at what was that a trou crime block A twisted faith where it's about the minister who got several of his women's you know, to have adulterosa fires on the name of God and everything anymore.
Wow.
Yeah, yeah, that one is. It's a great debite one.
Uh yeah, they'll have to check that one out, it, you know, in my side, because lots of back and forth on that one.
Very you know, check it out.
Yeah, I know Corey Mitchell. I had him on the program for Savage Son and I read I think it was pure Jesus Strangler. I read the first book I read from him. So he's a great author. It's a part of he is had a lot of talent. Yeah, oh yeah, he's very good. I haven't read anything from Catherine Casey, so I'm just going to take that recommendation now you've talked about some of some of your favorite authors. Who are some of the authors that that you review
this year that you thought were particularly interesting? Some of the best of twenty ten so far?
I say, is what the best of twenty ten so far? I would have to be?
And of course this is going to go back probably one of my favorite authors, but I would have to say Catherine Casey Shattered okay, and William Phelps's death trout. Let's see here, I'm gonna say Greg Olsen's a Twisted faith.
Wow, Dan, I can't I think, I can't think you. I cand of keep me a list going back and forth.
That I sit here, and of course I can't, I don't have it in front of me. But a lot of times I just kind of keep me a little list here and there, you know, going okay, this one here and this one there.
Well, people can go to your your review site too, I'm putting on.
I don't mention a lot of time.
I mean, I don't always say because I kind of wait till the end of the year and go, okay, these are but a lot of times okay, when you know one's gonna be a there for sure, and I mean, it's just because it's a really shocking story and really it's one that really motivates you. But yeah, I'll definitely be doing I best of the twenty and ten come closer towards the end of the year when all the books are released.
Well, that'd be great.
That's really really useful for people, and so I think people will really appreciate that. Now, I wanted to ask you. We've got about seven minutes, so I wanted to get a couple other things. I discover the true crime market market is predominantly women readers. Do you have any idea of why do you think women are interested in this John are rather than men, even though given that a lot of the books are gory, detail and right, which.
Kind of might surprising.
Yeah, I think the first and foremost thing is that women are predominantly the riders period.
That's right, more.
Women read than man, So that's going to give it an unfair advantage. But you know, I've asked that question
before on our Facebook group. You know why, and the answers that you see come back is because women, they say that we're actually reading this because subconsciously we're learning how to defend ourselves and there was actually some research done on that, and somebody had posted a link to it, and I can't remember what it was done, but it was from some group like Cambridge or something that actually study this and said that women are subconsciously interesting in
it because we feel like we're learning to protect ourselves, how to defend ourselves, what to look for, what to avoid, and so they said that it's a subconscious thing about just simply protecting ourselves, which made sense now, you know, just to say, hey, okay, this is what happened.
Here, this is how to avoid this situation.
Do you also think too, it's a certain amount of vast majority of victims of these serial killers, especially are women are working on the streets as sex trade workers. Do you think that at least the women that are reading true crime can empathize with those people. They don't have any problems with those people as with their occupation per se. They can actually empathize with those people as women first and then victims second.
Honestly, Dan, I don't think so. I don't think that has anything to I mean, we have sympathy, we empathize with them, but at the same time we're somewhat you know, and I know I don't speak for everyone whomen make that disclaimer, but I think we're somewhat of a critical group too, going well, if you weren't you know, in that particular case, Okay, well you were out there on the street. You know, you put yourself in this. You know, it shouldn't have happened to you.
But that's not me.
And I know that sounds very harsh, but you know, I think that's what we do though life. Think we kind of go, Okay, that's not me, so that can happen to me, and at the same time kind of like, okay, yeah, but you know she was out there and working the streets. Not saying that we don't have any empathy. We do, it's just that we also are a group of people who hold people to personal accountability.
Right right.
You know.
Now, I wanted to ask you because I've seen this little trends. I've seen a change into publishing business in the last few years. But I've seen is the size, the price and the quality of the books are going up in true crime, where nonfiction books are still quite expensive, and yet true crime up till just recently, as we made pocketbook size for years and fairly cheap both seven
bucks in the US. Have you noticed any changes in the genre in the last few years in terms of what I just mentioned other.
Than expansion.
Vailability, No, not really.
I mean we seem to almost kind of be frozen. I've noticed that a few other authors have tried to do an increase in price, you know, just to account for printing cost in flight, and it didn't seem to do well, so they had to drop back down. We seem to be holding steady that I can't explain.
Yeah, well, well, sure any of it gets to the point where people buy more. I mean, that's the thing that's just will I do see just a little bit of a trend between some of the authors just having bigger books, and so I don't know, maybe something of.
Almost where more is better when that's not always the case, you know, the thicker books more. But as far as I mean, you've always got your different writing styles and those have been around forever. But other than just the addition of a lot more new authors, a lot more lesser known cases than the big media cases, the ones that were making Nancy Grace and everything, I don't really see much difference, you know, I'm not saying much difference there.
We'll see what I What I thought was that once upon a time, true crime was hardcover and you had authors like Norman Mailer and Joseph Wambaugh. So it was hardcover and it was it was fairly legitimate nonfiction. And now in the last bunch of years, it's gotten well, it's been reduced somewhat. You know, you don't have the we'll say the biggest nonfiction authors doing true crime per se. The true crime authors stay in that genre. It's it seems like, but I.
See now that I think they're a lot like the Raiders. I think they're loyal.
I think they're loyal to their fans, to their followers.
I think.
We're all kind of a group that's very stuck. We're all happy with one another.
What's a good community, the true crime community. I'm very very I'm very impressed, you know. Yeah, I'm very impressed with the camaraderie and people helping other people in that community. So it's very it's a very interesting community, for sure. It's everybody helping out, so it's it's not so bad.
Oh, it's a wonderful. I'll tell you what.
I've met so many wonderful people and made so many close friends all around the world. And like I said, it's just everybody.
There's unity there that you don't find in the.
Broader you know, uh, suspense, thriller fiction or anything. Oh, you can discuss those books, but there's not a unity, there's not a togetherness.
Yeah, of course, we're all kind of taking care of each other.
Since people are, you know, typically criticizing this and going you read that, why.
We have to take care of each other.
Yeah, well, the only people that understand each other.
That's it, exactly.
We get each other, that's right. We appreciate each other. So that's good.
Exactly.
Well, we're almost at the end of our program now, so I wanted to let people know maybe you can put a plug in for your true crime book review. I'll let them know where to go and when to go and give a little bit of information about your true crime book reviews.
Kim Righty, Well, they can visit us at www dot truecrimebook reviews dot com. I published true crime book reviews on Mondays and Wednesdays, and on Fridays. We do have Friday Fiction for the people who want a little something different here and there. I do invite guest authors who would like to do reviews or anything, So just send me an email on the addresses there on my website, and I hope that they'll come and see us.
And you do welcome input from fans and obviously encourage people. Encourage people to come on and comment on your reviews and whether they like it or they don't like or disagree, you're very encouraging. Yeah, it makes it all good. Well, Kim, I want to thank you very for a very very informative and very enjoyable interview. Thank you very much for taking the time out to come on the program tonight.
Well, Dan, I want to thank you for having me.
This was interesting and I tell you what, I had a good time talking to you.
Oh great, Well, thank you very much. Have a good evening.
Alrighty YouTube, good night, Kim, all right, good night, by good night.
You've been listening to the program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them, with your host Dan Zupanski.
Good Night,