THROUGH AN UNLOCKED DOOR-Kevin Sullivan

Richard Ramirez, Richard Trenton, Chase, Danny Rowlings, and others. The book they were featuring this evening is Through an Unlocked Door in Walk's Murder with my special guest, journalist and author Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for a greensiness interview. Kevin Sullivan, Oh, thank you, Dan. It's always good to be on the

show with you. We always have a good time and or you sure review the books, you know, before the office come on, because you've got all things lined out and all the questions ready to go. And I really appreciate that. Well, thank you very much. It's my extreme pleasure because I wouldn't want to miss a word of some of the stuff you've written. This book is a fine example. Like I said before we got on the air, this thing is jam packed with details and a lot

of the stuff. For those people that think they've read everything, You've covered some things and in I got to warn people graphic detail.

can still remember this. I'm sixty three now, but at the age of ten, I picked up a book off of his shelf and it was called The World's Worst Murderers by a British author named Charles Franklin, and it was published in nineteen sixty five in England and also had a publication over here that same year, and so I took the book off the shelf I started reading it. I hadn't read an adult book before. I didn't know a whole lot about murder, and I knew people sometimes

harmed other people. But I found that it took me about three weeks to read the book, and I remember having to stop a number of times, asking my mother certain words, what they had to put out and what they meant, as you can imagine a ten year old kid having to do. But I got through the book and I was just fascinated by it. And the thing about the crime was these murders. The two things that

got me. Number one, it was the terrible people that were committing them and the folks that were being murdered, and very often they just didn't see it coming. They were the innocent people. And that made a really great impression on me. And so through the years I kept reading through crime, and I would read about war and things like that, because my father was in World War Two, his brother was killed in World War two, his uncle was killed in World War two. So I grew up

hearing these stories and reading about conflicts. But true crime, I never got away from it, and I just it was something that is always there. It's always around us. You read it every day in the newspaper. And there was an incident that happened when I was twelve in nineteen sixty seven, and we lived about a mile and a half from the A and P. Grocery store, which was on boards Down Road, and I guess maybe we

were just about a mile from there. And I used to go in that store at least a couple of times a week with my mom and she would do her shopping. I would, you know, walk along with her whatever.

And there was a robbery there one night. We were not there, and in fact, I don't think it was even dark yet, but four men had robbed the place, and a police officer with the Louisville Police department chased these men and cornered them basically across the street towards the side of the building in a parking lot, and you know, just these these men just did not get away.

But there were four of them, and I think it's always thought there was a fifth involved that had gotten away, but four of them that were right there when the shooting occurred. The police officer, his name was William Meyer. He had cornered three of them and apparently one he didn't corner, and this one man shot and killed him. And I remember being affected by that. Again. I had started reading true crime when I was ten, but I mean, here's a place where this occurred. It's near my home,

and it just it was something. So when these men came to trial, I asked my father if he would allow me to go and sit in on the trial for at least a portion of it, maybe for a day or two. I would like to see it. And he said that that would be okay. And I remember he took me down there. He told me three times not to leave my that he'd be back to get me for lunch, and just to make sure, he told a court bailiff that he knew to keep an eye

on me, and this man did. And I remember sitting there looking at these men, and you know, one or two of them were slouching in their chairs, and I kept thinking, they all to sit up straight, and why didn't their parents teach them better? I mean, this is how a twelve year old thinks. Well, I guess it was by the time the trial occurred that this was I get the thirteen and so, you know, it was just one of those things. My interest was always there and I could never get away from it. Now was

a vocation. Later I grew up, became educated, and I went into to the ministry for years and I'm still ordaining and that's still conducted, and so I'm busy in that world. And I'm also busy in the writing world with true crimes and occasionally things having to do with history. But that's where it all began when I was just a child, and it just kind of got a hook in me and it resonated, and so it's writing about true crime. It's still with me today. I'm not just reading.

I've been writing about it for years now.

but they would occur outside the home. Okay, And most of the murders I write about are that way as well. But I've always found it rather sinister when you think of someone creeping into somebody's home and awakening them for reasons of not just stealing from my house, but to commit violence and murder. And I know that I kept running track in my head about things over the years, and although I never saw any books written about murders that occur when there's easy access into the home because

of the unlocked door. But I kept cataloging it. So when I decided to write this book. I have six different publishers, but McFarland, who was the publisher of my book, The Bundy Murders. Uh, they had started they've started a new imprint called Expositive Books, which deal a lot with true crime. And uh, they had been asking me to do a book for quite some time, and I just

you know, it just didn't work out. And so we were talking and we uh I decided I asked him if I gave them the idea of this book, and and and we hammered out of the deal. And so I signed a contract and well the book and I thought, good, I'm going to finally be able to dig into this book. And then as I started to uh pull cases out from all different directions, Uh, you know, there's just just

so many things what people do. Is the you know, the thing I discovered about uh murders that occur in when they enter through unlocked doors and windows where the home has not been secured. There seems to be a mindset like I don't know how it is in Canada or in some other countries. It's probably very similar to the United States. But there seems to be something intrinsic about the United States where many people in this country, for whatever reasons, don't lock their doors, especially in the

better areas. Now, folks who normally have to live in high crime areas, they're pretty smart about it, and they'll lock their doors, not all of them, but they're better at it. But I've written books on before where I was covering cases where the occasional unlocks would come up and I would write about it. And I remember I was talking to a district attorney in Pennsylvania, and I've included this in my book about the Alec Rider murders.

And the district attorney said that, of course, and you can see this in the record, that when this kid named Alec, who was sixteen, when he sneaked into his friend's house in the middle of the night with his best friend with the intention of murdering him and the entire family, he knew he would have no resistance because they kept their doors unlocked at night, and he walked

right in and the slaughter began. Well, I was discussing this with the district attorney, because what's in the record is everybody was absolutely freaking out afterwards, and everybody in the neighborhood and in the surrounding area began not just locking their doors, purchasing more locks. If they didn't have a handgun, they purchased one or a shotgun, or if they did, they bought more ammunition. And some people were

so terrified. I'm thinking of one man in particular. He couldn't sleep at night and he would stay up and look out of his window to see if anybody was coming. But as I discussed this with the district you know, he said, but you know, after a while, things got back to normal, and a lot of these very same people would not be so diligent as to lock their doors again, and a lot of people are leaving their

doors unlocked. So it's an odd thing for me to see this, and as a crime writer, because true crime writers are as immersed in this stuff as police officers are. We're just not there to see the bodies up close and personal on the ground, but we go through all the reports, We many times visit the locations of the murders. We see what happened, We know what goes on, and when you know what goes on and you don't, and you know there are folks that they're not locking their doors.

It was my aim with this book Through an Unlocked Door that everybody that reads this book, if they if they're not in the habit of locking their door, they serve they should lock their door because although a locked door will not deter someone from getting into your home, if they really want to get to you, they're going to have to break an enter not just have an unlawful entering through an unlocked door. They will have to break an entner. There's a reason why it's called that.

And in doing so, you might use you might be roused from your sleep, a dog may hear you. There's been a number of people that come into homes like that that have been shot and killed. So you have a better chance than them walking in and waking you up. So my hope that this folks read this book, if they're not used to doing that, they will lock their doors.

And these aren't the greatest locks anyway on sliding glass doors, they will not be able to open that door because there's a bar there. And a number of the murders that that that what's his name, Danny Rolling committed he was able to get through one apartment anyway, just that way. And so these are all most of them are. Some of them made national news, some of them made news in the region that they were in, and some of them made news in just maybe a community, and then

you know, it kind of rippled out from there. One of the strangest murders in this book that would not be considered how profile, but I had to add it because of how bizarre it was, was the case of a nurse, a fella that was a like I think it was a diabetic nurse up in Indianapolis, Indiana and a nice guy, a really nice guy. But something happened to him one night, you know, and he snapped and he got in his car and he drove from Indianapolis.

Probably came through Louisville. Perhaps not. This trial hasn't even been adjudicated yet. The trial will start shortly.

Inside this home sleeping is a father, his son, a six year old boy, and his daughter. The mother who works for UPS is working. I believe that CPS was working third shift. She was not in home, so this otherwise and up to this point, normal man. That is, every body that knows him in Indy or put him in the hospital, just the normal guy. He goes up to the front steps. It's very quiet in the neighborhood. Nobody is out. He tries the front door and it's unlocked.

He goes into the home. It's a two story home. He wanders around the first floor for just a short time. He goes into the kitchen and retrieves a butcher knife. He goes upstairs and he goes into this little boy's room, whose real name is Logan. I changed the names of the family because they requested it for the book, but the name of the killer is the same. And he stabbed this little boy to death in the head and neck. The sister tried to stop this man, and she was

slightly injured, but she's okay. And the father, of course, hearing all this commotion, got up pinned the guy to the floor, and within a short time the police were there. And you know, if you look at how randomness is now, the thing about this is this whole crime, as terrible as it sounds, they very well have hinged on the door being unlocked because there's no there's nothing to show that he would have broken in, but he found it unlocked. He was obviously looking for the unlocked door and he

found it. And I write about people. There's another person in the book who is his name is Adam Leroy Lane who was a trucker and he had a rule of thumb that he was only going to go into houses where the door was unlocked, and there were people that would hear occasionally when he was disliked. He used to have a time where he would like to strike around two am, and you know, sometimes people would hear their doorknob jiggle, and you know, I mean they would

wake up and then he would move on. But there was nothing to stop him on some of these locations, and he was able to go into these homes and murder. So it's true that some killers will avoid any kind of house defense that you have of your garage doors locked, your front door's locked, your windows are locked. They just move on to other places, okay, because there is noise. It has to be created if they're going to break in, and that for some of these people is a little

too risky. I mean, if you you know, we're normal people. I couldn't imagine walking into somebody's house even it was even if the door was unlocked, and wandering around their house in the dark. I mean, I would think, me be normal. Any minute, somebody's gonna pounce on me. But that fear isn't present within these people, and they're going in there with a mission. And the mission of the

cases I write about is to murder. It's not even thet it's the mur And of course Richard Ramirez, who would you know, enter through unlocked doors or you know, windows that are open or something. He could, you know, jiggle the door and get into He would do so. And of course he was a thief, but he was also a diabolical murderer. So this is the result of you know, the last thing society wants to do is make it easy on people that want to harm us.

But the greatest problem for unlocked doors is what's going on in the mind of the individual. And the problem with people is that most people don't think like this. Most people believe, well, everything is normal. And see, I've always believed for most of my life that everything will be normal and everything is normal until it's not. And you've got to remember when somebody enters your home and they come through an unlocked door and they have weapons or they have a weapon, and they wake you up.

They're in charged. Now it's their home. It's no longer your home. You have no say in it. Your life depends on what they want to do with it. And when people blithely put themselves at risk by not securing their home, normally, they're doing so because the thought of murder or violence or anything like that is so far removed from their minds that they pretty contem confidently think, well, that happens to other people, but it just doesn't happen and won't happen to me. And that's the way that

I don't want people to think. I don't like to frighten people, but there isn't any way that I would keep I don't even keep ride out of my home. My office is in my home, so my door is locked, even in the daytime. And there was a guy going through the neighborhood one day and he was jiggling doors, I mean the door knobs. And I had to get up one day and this guy had a rag in his hand and he said he was going to go

around and you know, he's going around and polishing door knock. Well, what he's looking for is to get in and steal I'm sure, but this was very brazen of this individual, and it was broad daylight, so so you know, and with him, it's probably just that. And most people that leave their doors unlocked, they're probably going to escape from being murdered. But while I take the chance, and a person like me, I could not go to sleep with my house unlocked. That's how changed my mind is about

this stuff. And you know, it's just you know, it's security all the way for me. And if that's just a normal way to live.

Rowlings and Richard Ramirez. And the thing that I found was very very interesting because just you putting it together and me remember reading that, but just the separate ideas you put together is that Danny Rowlings claimed that there was a voice or a commanding voice called Gemini, and that when he went to one of the doors that was unlocked, he said it was locked, but after he summoned the demon Gemini, it's suddenly unlocked up, which I found was fascinating from two of the worst killers in

through true crime history share at least that idea that if the door is unlocked, Satan helped me open that where certainly was Satan but.

And one person reported that in one book that I read a long long time ago, that he felt he had even told somebody he felt like he was allowed to go in because the door was open. Chase was not. Richard Chase was not. He was deeply, deeply mentally disturbed, mentally ill, but he was not legally insane. He believed his blood was drying up and turning the powder. So the very fact that he thought he might be welcomed

in the home, it's quite lausible. And a lot of these people that you know going to homes killers take advantage of this. The the doctor Pettitt family in Connecticut that I write about, who lost his wife and two daughters. That the person, the two the pair that murdered them. That was their first murder. The one guy, not Hayes, but commenced here whatever, Yes that thank you ask to looking up about the book. It's got a difficult name to pronounce it. I was writing it. I've learned to

pronounce it. But he had been going into unlocked homes for many years and burglarizing, not harming anybody, and it just so happens that this time when this home and here's a doctor, but there was a door that was left unlatched and they got in. But this time it was going to be different, no matter how many homes they had previously burglarized. And that's another thing. It doesn't take somebody just coming in with the intention to kill.

Sometimes someone could come in, perhaps with not the intention of killing, and it'll end up going down to the murder anyway. But your most dangerous situations are when they come in with the intention to kill. And that's what you know Chase would do. And he'd come right in and start blasting or whatever, and you know he had

killed a young mother. That was her husband was at work and she had her day off, and you know, she was getting ready to carry the garbage outside, and the front door was unlocked, and he just waltzed right in. As soon as he saw her, he started, you know, he shut her a couple of times with a with a twenty two Lugos style pistol. And you know, now, had the door been locked, he may very well have gone to the next home. So these are things that show up in newspaper reports. They show up from time

to time. People do here them, so, you know, but putting all these together in one book, I'm pretty convinced that somebody has been in the habit of not locking their doors. Once they read all these things from Danny roll into Richard, you know, you know, Ramirez, it's going to cause people to think twice because it's a it's a danger that they don't don't need to subject themselves

to do everything you can to lock up. And then you've got you know, you've you've already won over half the battles just by doing that.

are seventeen and eighteen years old. University of Florida, Gainesville. Tell us a little bit about Rolling, what he does, how he achieves what he wants to do.

He was going down a wrong road and he committed murders that he admitted to later. Even before Gainesville, he had uh killed some people earlier than that that they but what happened in Gainesville was just nothing short of diabolical. And it's pretty clear from Uh from what Rolling himself

would say. There's a couple of good books out there on the case, and but Rolling beamed up with uh Soundra London I wrote this book, and if anybody reads Rolling's book, the main thread within his writing is there is a celebratory theme of the murders he that he committed.

And it's real clear it's there. And you know, Rolling, when he would would break into these people, these these apartments, these places where these college kids lived, he knew he was going to murder them, and of course there would be the sexual assault that that occurs to and you know, there was absolutely no mercy on his part and never any any regret later because an interesting thing that I brought out in in the book is that he took

he took joy in stabbing people as they slept. There's a there's a person in there they killed uh Manual Toboda and uh Toboda was stabbed, and there was there was a girl that that that Billy would also killed in the next room. They were sharing an apartment that they weren't boyfriend girlfriend, but they were sharing an apartment and uh, he starts stabbing him. He got into the apartment, he starts stabbing him immediately, because of course, being a male,

he was the biggest threat to Voda. Immediately woke up, called out, thought he had been shot. Start fighting Rolling, and you know, he got into some some good punches, but Rolling stabbing so quickly with this knife that there was no way that that many commota was was going to survive. And he died with just a number of

seconds after that. But when when Rolling was asked by somebody after he was incarcerated, what he considered would be the worst way to die, he said, uh, being stabbed, you know, you know what, well, I was asleep, and so you know, he took great pleasure in this stuff. And if you read his writing, like, I don't even recommend people by the book, but I got it because I was doing this. You know this this uh, this chapter, but it's very celebratory. You can tell he enjoyed the murders.

He talks about the invoking of the demon and they were just very diabolical crimes. And you know, it's it's one thing to murder somebody. And it's another thing to want to do things that will where you glorify what you have done. And there was one individual that he killed there that he had murdered her. He had sexually assaulted her, and he had left the apartment and he was going on his way and he couldn't find his wallet. He went back to the apartment look for his wallet.

I don't believe he ever located it. But while he was there, he said, this demon or whatever told him to cut the handle. He severed the head of the woman. And now what am I about to tell you? He did all of this for shock value, and it was very successful. He he pulled a bookshelf out of like a little alcove or whatever and placed it back way away, like maybe close to the bedroom, but it's where when the authorities would open the front door, they'd see it.

And he propped her head on that shelf so that the people would see her head as soon as they came through the door. And incidentally, this girl that that he murdered was also worked for the Sheriff's department as a like a call person, like a nine to one one person, a person that takes calls and so everybody knew her, and you know, and he had taken the body, and this is this is so surreal, it's kind of it's just hard to imagine he had placed her naked body on the bed. She's sitting headless.

to bring a key. And he looked around the back and he could see that there was a gap in the where the glass door was, where the shades the blinds, he could he could look under and see her. And he shined his light underneath there and looked in there, and he saw that, and it so shocked him to see that he just immediately backed away from it.

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pure diabolical stuff. And for folks who don't believe in the death penalty, you know, I kind of sympathize with folks that don't because they mean to have the right thing. But if you look at somebody like Danny Rowing or a Ted Bundy or a Richard Chase, it's always been my opinion that when you have some people that are this diabolical, they're better off not being here. And you know that he committed these these murders in the the state of Florida just about his super his execution, and

that's what ultimately happened to this guy. But his words will live on and he was, you know, he was concerned about that and that's why he wrote this book. But again it's he did it from the perspective of

a celebratory thing for the murders he committed. And when he placed that head on that bookshelf, uh, it worked its magic, as it were, because they the officers said that as they came through, and of course they knew their friend had been murdered, they couldn't help but look at it, and they'd be conducting their work and they they'd look over at it again because they didn't move the head. They had to leave it in the crime scene.

When you have a crime scene like that, it's going to remain at crime scene for many, many hours, and you got a lot of people working, and you got a lot of people and they so all of these people said, I just couldn't I couldn't believe it. It just it was past believing, and I would just occasionally glanced over. And so that's what rolling wonted. And so you know, it's just a strange, strange case.

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like Tommy Lynn Cells. Let's talk before we talk about Tommy Lynn Cells probably the most out of all these cases are shocking, but I think Tommy Lynn Sells is something that I will never forget some of the stuff in this book.

contributed to what he became. But you look at some of his pictures as a as a kid, he just looks like a nice kid, certainly a normal child, and then you think about how he turned out later. But you know, he he he became a thief when he was very young. He uh, you know, he learned how to slip in and out of homes. And of course for a long time they were just burglaries. He just

he would steal things. But he got into Satanism and he got into drugs, and you know, he would spend time between his home in Texas and then he started going out to you know, Los Angeles and ultimately that is where he would create his murder in Mayhem, and it was it was out in La that that really if you read about the knight Stalker murders that you know, just the terror, you know, the chances of any one person encountering Ramirez even when this was going on, was

so exceedingly remote, and yet some bud he was going to get murdered. And but you know, when you have murders like this, people are just you know, they just go bonkers. And you think everybody would lock down there they are places, but you know a lot of people they it was hot, it was exceedingly hot. They didn't have you know, air conditioners or whatever. And some people slept with guns by their night stand or what have you.

But sometimes you know, they'd leave their windows open. But Ramirez would always look for a way to get in. And then again there were some people that he killed who refused to lock their doors, and even with the pleadings of family members, like there was one older lady, uh and she said, I just refused to be a prisoner in my own house. And you know, this was a nice lady, but it was a mindset she had

and she just didn't feel like it was. She refused, it would be like maybe demeaning her if she had to live that way. But had the house been really secure, he may have gone on to you know, to somebody else's home. But there's also missed opportunities in in what happened with with with this killer, because he had burglarized one couple, uh and stolen from them, and about a year later he came back and killed the same couple. Uh. He came right back to that same house and got

into them. Now, between the time when when when these folks were first burtalarized until they were murdered, they particularly bought a shotgun, kept a shotgun loaded under the bed, and the man had a handgun, uh, the woman had a forty five you know, uh automatic, and so they were they were well gone. Now when you're talking about this is the thing that people need to remember when you're talking about security in any form or fashion, consistency.

In the military, they call it having your you know what, wire tight at all times. You can't not have it wired tight. People that don't will die. You've got to keep your stuff wied tight at all times. So it's consistency you're doing the same thing day in, day out for your security, just in case the unthinkable happens. Well, this couple was in theory well prepared for a return visit for just a burglar. They're not even thinking in terms not even thinking in terms of murder. And they

kept this shotgun under their bedloaded all the time. But the grandchildren had come over just the weekend before Chase attacked them, and being a mark granddad, he unloaded the shotgun because he didn't want the kids finding it and some terrible misshap which is a smart thing, because it wasn't locked up. However, when the kids left, he failed to load it. And when Ramirez broke in. And you know, people will read in the book, if they've never read

about him, they'll they'll read about this. He would wake up people being violent. He would slap them, he would beat them, and then he would also he's looking for stuff. He's looking for stuff to steal. Even before the murders occurred. Usually he would kill the or otherwise take out the mail in the house. But he was in this particular house and he was he had been He had awakened her and already attacked her husband, and he was rooting around for something. She pulled the shotgun out from under

the bed. He turns around and man, she has got him dead to rights. She pulls the trigger and it just clicked. No shotgun blast, shotgunshelves. She could have killed him right there now. That would have saved her own life, and that would have prevented additional murders from occurring. But she did not. But it didn't work out. Of course, then he might have let her live. He might sometimes he did let people the female lives and usually when that happened, they normally had a child there. But but

but even then that wasn't a guarantee. But he killed her after that, and so that was what what's a missed opportunity? But you have to look, you have to look for why that happened, and it's from the lack of consistency, Like the Grandad did the right thing, but unloading it. But you can't drop the ball on this stuff. You gotta load the weapon back up. You gotta keep locking your doors. And so Ramirius, like with all killers, took advantage of wherever someone had let down their guard.

He depended upon it. And by the way, he was a satan worshiper. But this is this is this is ironic both and funny. He was a Satan, you know, worshiper and he uh would would mockingly make people repeat that they love Satan or whatever, and the people would do it, not not meaning it, just to not be killed.

And when when they discovered who this was and they were putting posters out on him, Ramirez found himself in a store where people were recognizing him and he ended up being chased and beaten by a lot of people. And when the police officer finally showed up as he was laying bloodied and beaten all this this curb, the first thing he says was thank god you that you're here. Can you imagine that he said, thank God you're here.

But uh yeah, And so you know, Ramirez was an evil, diabolical individual, but he looked for the unlocked door or unlocked window, and more than not he found it.

of that. And you talk about this Nettie and her sister and she's in a wheelchair, and yet he's carving pentagrams in bodies. Yes, yes, yes, maybe part of the retail is that these are the kind of killers that are not typical, but yet when they reac havoc, this will last for generations.

I mean, there's even a story I included there from a newspaper article where you know, people were in fear and sure enough he had struck just a few doors down, so you know, and in fact, Ramirez even was trying to get into a window where where a sheriff's deputy lived and the wife heard somebody trying to raise the window and he said, it can't be. I painted that thing shut. He said, I'm telling you, he's trying to

get in. If there's something going on, there's somebody doing And of course it was him, and you know, so he had to go on to to you know, something else. So yeah, it's it's the psychological aspects of the fear that these people create is what creates the pandemonium. When a diabolical murder happens in the home, Chances are the people that did it will not be coming back to that area. They're just not going to do it now. There could be a flop where they would, but chances

are there not. But the people that live in that area, especially on the same street or within blocks, there's this this this it's like pouring throwing a match into rocket fuel. There's just bursts of pandemonium and fear, and for a while it's way over the top, far more than it should be, and they go just off the charts and

what they need to do to protect themselves. What's interesting psychologically is that over a period of time, while some people will remain locking their doors that weren't before, sometimes the majority of those that started locking their doors would fall off again. Now that is a problem in the mind, and that is the thing that is you can do a psychological study on it. It's really interesting.

adamant that way that they were warned. So in retrospect they can't believe that they were warned by family members about exactly that. And yet these are the people that were attacked and the worst, the worst attacks with these people actually this absolutely yeah. It's just you know, and when you're confronted with that and you're trying to convince somebody to lock their doors and they're saying they're not going to live like that, it's almost like there's a

stronghold in their mind. They built up an image and a belief system within their mind. And for some people it's very very difficult to crack. And you know, people if they would spend a little time researching and thinking about things and just doing a little bit of study on something like this, they could see the wisdom in locking their doors. Or there's other precautions you can take, even beyond the home, to make sure that you don't all victim of the crime.

There was a killer that was getting ready to be put to death and he said it killed some children. And he said, they said, what would you tell parents? He said, tell parents to tell their children if they're ever grabbed, to start screaming, kicking and fighting and making as much noise as possible, because very often we'll let

them go because it's just too much. And I wrote about the case just like that to where a guy tried to grab one kid and she fought him, and he actually put the child down grab someone else, and the other kid just offered no resistance at all, And so there's a validity there. This guy knew what he was talking about. So prepare yourself for the terrible thing that probably will never come. But make yourself safe by locking your doors, because it could be that evil will

come to you. Try the door, find it locked, and move on, and you'll stay safe in your beds.

in there. So anytime you do something that creates an opening, if that opening can be abused or you know, worked on where it can be widened, then you're looking for problems to happen. You got to remember it was Ted Bundy who was able to escape by going up through a light fixture that that wasn't bolted right, and he got up in the thing and moved and they looked at that thing before hid he said, well, it's due to be welded, but there's no way a human can

get up there and go through there. But he lost the little weight and he was able to do it. So and that's somebody that is in captivity. And so here, you know, here Ramirez is out. He comes to this thing and I don't know, don't remember what he used to widen it, but he did so it was just enough where he could just really what he was doing. He was snaking himself through and he was able to get in there, and it was one thing was in

then it all belonged to him. And even he had this feeling he knew once he was in the apartment because he know he always had a twenty two or something on him. Once he was in the apartment, it's almost like he could relax because he worked the apartment by way of the pin light, and the people were sound asleep, and should anybody get up, he knew he could shoot them immediately, so there was no real threat to him. The danger part. I think what he considered

to be the toughest part was just getting in. Once he was in and shut the door behind him, he knew that he was in control. And that is very, very common for these killers.

became friends. And it's different for them were friends. I mean, you wouldn't make you harm somebody's child of a friend, you know, I mean, he just would You just wouldn't do that. And it turns out that, you know, while mister Harris was gone to help another couple move because the Harris had moved to Texas from from another state and it was folks that come down to visit. They wanted to move to Texas too, so he went back

with them. Oddly ran into cells that very day, Sells learned that he was going to be out of town, and you know, he goes and here's people he knows, you know, Missus Harris is at home, and the daughters at home, and of course there's there's also the boy and the boy's blind. Uh, and then and there's a

friend over. Well Sales comes over and he goes through this open window and uh, he goes through the boys room and the boy can't see, but uh, you know, he gets into the other and he looks in on on on Missus Harris and she's sleeping with with with one of the kids and then he goes into uh, the daughter's room that also has a friend up and yeah, right, and then has the friend up in the top bunk and uh, you know, he's wanting to you know, he wakes her up, wanting to molest her, but he's got

his knife, and of course the ultimate happens. You know, she tries to break away, and he stabs her numerous times and she you know, falls up against the wall and collapses. Blood is everywhere, and he doesn't at that point see the little girl up in the bed her friend, and but he spots her right before and of course he stabs her or two uh you know, and leaves

her for dead. Uh and then uh he you know, he goes back out and and but thank god, she lives, and she makes her way to uh a couple's place, and you know, the couple that lets her in and the man you know helping her. He thinks she's gonna die on him any moment. She bleeding profusely, but she survives, and she testifies against him. And uh, Sells is just a Sells is a walking murder machine without any conscience whatsoever.

And I believe I include uh a Radford psychology thing on him in the book as well, with some legend of his life, the different events in his life. But yeah, he's just, uh, you know, it's just a worthless, worthless individual. And the father mentioned, you know, when Sales was finally put put to death, you know, his daughter had died so horribly that the dad, you know, he's a normal guy. But he said, you know, after the drugs, you know, went into his vein and see that we do this

all the sanitized business. When when you execute somebody, he said, he said, it looks like the dude just went to sleep. And that's the truth. Sells just went to sleep, and that was it. But uh yeah, a very very evil, evil individual and uh no, no thought about killing children, adults. And yet you know, from the outside he could be a very nice person. Certainly the harrises like him. Thought he was a normal individual, and you know he could be funny or whatever. But again it's what's lurking on

the inside of that that person. So yeah, so but he was finally put to death, and uh and and that was a good thing for the world.

We see these sexual problems they add, and we see the things that occurred and whether there were beatings from the parents or whatever. We look at all this, and yet at no time can we pinpoint where they passed from the if they were abused child to then the evergrowing predator. And you look at the life of Sales. I don't know of any point in life that you could point to that even looks normal. And you know, except when he was just a very very small child.

So you know, these signs of you can't get more weird than one of the girl in bed with your grandmother or you know, and sex with a family member. So you know, he was he was off the rails from an early point as far as his personality. But when it got into the killing of people and how he killed them and the the remorseless aspect of how

he could recount it. I mean some of these killers, I mean they and you know Bundy was this way he can recount things, and you know which is Mike Mike Fisher said, uh, he might say something about the murder and it's like he could have said, pass me

the sugar. Complete indifference to the victim. And so Sales was well one person that once he was captured, he just liked to talk about He would talk and you know this is against the advice of his attorneys, but he would give interviews, talk kinds of stuff, and he just wanted to talk, talk and talk, which I actually think was a good thing because the more people hear about how these people think and how they were. You know, the better off they'll be because just some astounding stuff

that he did. And yeah, he would boast of the fact that, you know, he would kill from coast to coast, so he was sometimes a mobile killer, and he would leave a trail of bloodshed, you know, wherever he went.

believe that's where he was. Was that where he was wanting to act like he wanted to purchase the house, and they opened the door, and yeah, that was it. That was it, and then he made his way in

with force, and Uh, you're right. The murder of that family, I think that's probably the most horrendous murder that I've ever that I've ever written about, because she was pregnant and because of what happened with the beating of everybody with the bat and stuff, and the I mean he's killing her, the other child, that he's killing the baby

inside her. I mean, it just it's the stuff. It's really the stuff of like a horror movie where if you went to the theater, you'd have everybody screaming, but everybody would be saying something that horrible could not happen, and yet it did happen. And this stuff that when murder occurs like this, this is really the unthinkable. I mean, there are I've written about people like that. I've written

about coups that have they're hardened detectives. I mean, they're veterans and even these folks sometimes come into these crime scenes and it's very difficult for them to take and they've seen a lot, and so coming in to to those who had to come in I already knew from the description, but people will read about it of the brutality of how he killed the Guardine family. I guarantee you that those people that came in there, that had to work the forensics of that and the crime scene,

that's something that they will never forget. Winn's surprised me if they didn't have to attend some kind of counseling, because it was the most horrendous thing that anybody could think of.

reading the depths of depravity that some of these killers. Yeah, in the good old days of when they took a while to catch these people.

him to us, We'll take care of them. But you had very hardened people there who were telling the jail staff, we can't sleep having him there us. It's bothering us having this guy near us, because they knew of all the things that he had done. And so even what we would call bad people were very upset with these

kinds of actions. And yeah, and if you don't have to take anything beyond the murder of the Dardine family to know that the most diabolical things that could happen to a family did happen on that day to then, And there's really nothing else he could have done more horrible, unless he just would have kept him alive and just tortured him for days. If you think about what it takes to take a baseball bat and do that to

somebody and willingly do it, enjoy doing it. I mean, you look at a guy like selves, you think you

can't be human, You can't be but he was. And the mystery of how he got that way is something we'll never know, and I guess we should tell tell you know, the listeners that he had taken mister Dardine out and away from the family and I don't know, maybe a mile or two away on the grounds of this place near like a school, and mister Dardine tried to gain the upper hand, and of course selves killed him and then you know, cut off his genlemals as

you say. And the reason why I mentioned that because about the killing off site, is because when they came and saw the Guardian family dead and they couldn't find mister Guardine, just temporarily he was considered a suspect and then it wasn't long after that they located the body and then they knew it was it was someone else. So uh yeah, And you know, when you don't leave a lot of trace evidence behind, which which Cells apparently

did not, then you know, for his cribs it. You know, you have to have some luck to finally, you know, nab somebody. But he was able to go on from there and kill and then, you know, it's just one of those things. He was a killing machine and he wasn't going to stop killing. He didn't even want to

stop killing. And uh, you know, there are some people out there like that, and when they're like that, they have to either be killed out right or incarcerated for the rest of their life, or incarcerated for a while then put to death because there's no way, there's no way these people can be rehabilitated. That's why. That's why. You know, who wasn't the lady one of the main ancient people. They were going to parole her and there was just an outcry in California and her parole was

then denied again, it was reversed. And you know they say that text want I mean, I'm a Christian, I'm a minister. They say, text Watson is a borner, good Christian. Now I think that's great for that. I think Texas stay in prison for the rest of his life and minister there and if we're out today, he wouldn't be staying in my house that's okay, that's just the way it is. So I think mister Watson needs to stay there so I can understand the outcry in California about that.

coming into their home and taking her away. Can you imagine that this came out? The dad talked about it, and it's so weird. And that night they were playing makeup and one person, you know, it was while Halloween. One person was doing one thing and they were making up Polly to look dead. It isn't that a horrible irony? And yet, and yet, so Richard Allen Davis, just the scum of the earth was able to come in through

a locked door. Again, had the door been locked, I do not believe for a second he would have broken in. But he came through the unlocked door. We can't know that for sure. But he came through the unlocked door and he got her. And what is so terrible is that he had his car, had had a problem and gone off into like a little ditch or whatever, and the police had come. He had put Polly on the like a little hillside. He said that she was still

alive at that time. And because there was a breakdown in some stuff, there wasn't that police department didn't know that there was like an app out on a on a on a missing child, and there was just some things that felt through the cracks and uh and then they you know, they he was on private property. Really what this happened? He was told to leave, the car got out, he was told to leave, and then uh uh and then he said that he you know, he

called her afterwards. So it was just a terrible, terrible case. And of course the house is still there in the Pedaluma, California, and it's across from this Wickerson Park and then there's another park down the street, and it's the kind of place that you would you would look to for safety, and it's just a nice neighbor hood. But again, no matter where you live, no matter how nice it is, you have to remember this. Evil isn't in the air. Evil is in people, and wherever people go there can

be evil. And so take the nicest area, you still have to be on guard. You still have to lock your doors or there can be a tragedy.

uh to find her. And of course after she was found dead, there was a real letdown to the you know, you know community. But UH, good things, something good was born out of it. And UH, if you could ever bring some good out of something that's so horrible, then

it's always good to do. And Mark klass is Uh, he's got his own organization, uh to make people aware of these things, and and and and his and Polly's mother and of course you know they were divorced, but Polly's mom has her organization and they it's not just keeping Polly alive. That's not what in the memory of people.

That's not what this is about. It's keeping kids safe, making parents aware, you know, providing kids for for people to understand the need to protect that if the worst happens, Uh, there's a chance to get your kid back. And so they have turned what was a terrible destruction at least good was born out of it, and I'm sure it's helped them emostly, uh through you know, throughout the years. And terrible, terrible story. She's a beautiful little girl that was taken. It was just horrible.

filled with unlocked doors. And I just want people to know that you can take something that's so so far from almost reality, where someone could get in a car in another state, in another city, come to a place they'd never been before, come into a home, murder a child, and take that child away forever. None of this should be none of it should be, but it was, and

what made it easy was that unlocked door. So when I was writing the book, I wanted to choose the cases that would have the best representations of it and then believe me that there were others, and you know, sometimes Bundy he depended on the unlocked door. Most of his murders have hurt out. I could have included cases of where even Bundy did this, So there's more out there. There's thirteen cases, isn't all that's out there. There's a lot more than that, But you can only put so

much in one book. But I wanted to choose those cases that would I think best speak to people, whether they are on a national level or a local level, of the ferocity that can come from these terrible killers that enter homes that are unsecured, and what you can do about it to help keep them out. But again it's no guarantee, but with some killers it is a guarantee because there are some that are out there that

will only enter through an unlocked door. So you've got something going for You've got a lot going for you if a person becomes security conscious, and it's never too late, lock your doors, in your cars, lock your doors in your homes, keep your doors locked during the day, because I've written about a lot of murders that have occurred

in the daytime. Okay, so you never know what could happen, do everything you can to protect yourself, and then you just hope for the best, and you move out through life, not in fear, but doing everything that you can do to protect yourself and your family.

And that's where we have some more murders after that, in terms of at least people not doing enough security in spite of that panic and that fear.

the relationship with the girlfriend eventually ended. Uh. He ended up living back I think it's Detroit, with his mother, and you could tell the man was very better and in fact, I quote from an article that he wanted to put this gown on some kind of use some kind of tool on him to basically torture, you know, Ramirez for for what he done. But what ironic is his mother was saying that very night, lock your doors. This person's running around doing this stuff. And again, yeah,

the chance was very low that anything would happened. But when the ball stopped rolling, it stopped at his house and that was just a fluke, and it turned out to be very deadly. He lived, but he was never the man that he wanted to be after that day.

a he's a big, fat guy. And when people read the book, they'll see that he must have considered himself like a soldier of murder because he would dress up in this like ninja garb, and he would put on these various knives on his belt, and on at least one or two occasions, he even had one of these Chinese death stars. What he was going to do with that, you know, you know, God only knows. But he got into this one house and uh, the uh the husband and the father of this girl who was smaller than

uh than h Lane. But but boy, his adrenaline was pumping, and he was a wiry guy. He fought Lane and was able to uh contain him, just like the nurse was able to be contained by the dad. That's why I say the cases are almost similar. But but it turned out much better for this other family. And of course, you know, the police got there and they were able to capture him, so it was it was a very

very interesting case. This, this Adam Leroy Lane is one of the killers that absolutely refused to go on homes by breaking in. He had to find an unlocked door and he would enter therein but uh, you know, but his his uh, his trail of murder came to a

close in that house. And yes they did. They wrote a book on it, and I quote from that book and uh, they are the one American family that has stopped a real killer and it made it either and I guarantee you by doing that, they saved the loves of others because had he not been caught that night, he would have killed again. Absolutely, And Adam Lee Roy Lane was the kind of person that wants he got

it in his blood. He wasn't he wasn't going to stop, which is a normal thing for these types of killers once they get the idea and act on it, and they consider themselves pretty good with it. They want that blood rush, they want that high, they want to commune with with the people that they kill, and it becomes almost a mystical thing and they're not going to stop. And Bundy was like that, So these are not people out killing people to commit robberies or whatever and they

just have to kill people. These are people that are out just murder for the joy of murder. And so yes, they can be very proud that they stopped this guy because they not only saved their own daughter, but they saved they say, future victims as well.