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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them, Gaesy, Bundy, Dahmer, the Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufansky.
Good Evening. They stared into the faces of pure evil and survived. Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahmer, David's son of Sam Berkowitz, Dennis Raider, the bt Killer, b t K Killer. These are some of the names that strike terror into even the bravest of hearts. Human monsters, they preyed upon the unsuspecting, freely feeding their terrible hungers. Their crimes were unspeakable, as they maimed, tortured, killed and killed again, leaving so many
dead in their bloody wake. But somehow astonishingly, seven would be victims fell into the clutches of the centuries. Were serial killers and escaped death through courage, divine providence, or just plain luck. This is the remarkable true story of those who lived the book that were featuring this evening. Is there but for the grace of God survivors of the twentieth century's infamous serial killers, with my special guest,
journalist and author Fred Rosen. Welcome back to the program, and again, thank you very much for a greeted this interview Fred Rosa Dead.
It's oh LEAs my pleasure to be on. Uh. You know, when when time goes on and I haven't talked to you in a while, I get Sutansky with you all, so, you know. But you know, this is an interesting book too to talk about. Actually it really you know, some books you you you know, they change you a bit, you know what I mean, and they stay with you and other you know, I mean, it's you know, it's
like any kind of work. I think in that respect, some jobs you know you remember, and boy, this one is it's right up there.
You were in a certain place in your life and a certain position in your career at that time. So tell us where you were at that time, what year was this, and exactly where you were in your life before you endeavored to write this book.
Wow, this was in two thousand and six, two thousand and seven, and where I was was I was sort of changing the kinds of cases I was writing about, and I wanted to get more into oh you know, I wanted to find out more about the people who survived, which is what brought this one up. And at the same time, personally, what was happening was, oh, my couple of things. I mean at that point, my marriage was breaking up. My mother got hit by a car, you know,
a hurricane and made her homeless. I mean, then you name it. You know. It was like all this stuff is going on at the same time. And there I am on the road in Louisville into interviewing Where you Survived Kid twenty You talk about perspective, you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Now you particularly chose some spectacular cases and spectacular killers, and then just to top it off, some spectacular stories of survivals survivors. And you start this book with we talk about serial killer Derek Todd Lee from Batman to Louisiana. And before we talk about him, we could talk about your meeting, because this is really the most interesting part of this book, and a fascinating part and a unique perspective is survivors and from the
famous people. So you went to Sammy's Grill to meet this woman that survived, Michelle Whitehead at twenty eight years old, at former Michelle Chapman. She'd married now eight years at that time when you spoke to her, just a little bit of a woman, five foot tall pounds. She had come with her mother. So tell us about this incredible meeting, right, Well, what happened.
Was it was in a town called Zachary, which is pretty rural southside of Baton Rouge. And I was meeting with Michelle and her mom and her dad, and they all came to talk. And she had not spoken about the case before publicly. And it was it was a Friday night. This is one of the That's what I'm getting at. It's like it's one of those things where
you could feel it, you know what I mean. It's like it was a Friday night, and you know, there we were in you know, you know, in the wilds of Louisiana, and I'm asking her questions about this guy that had had been she'd been necking in a cemetery, not something I've ever done on my dad. But anyway, she's necking in a cemetery with a boyfriend and that's when the serial killer, she didn't know at the time,
he gets in the car with a sword cane. Oh my, you know, you can't make this stuff up, you know, a sword I was reading this, Dan, I'm going, where the hell did this guy get a sword cane? You know that's not you know, but in any case, you know, there's so much physical damage, you know, that's the thing that I discovered. You know, besides the physical damage that occurs to her and a boyfriend, the emotional damage is. Man, I gotta tell you, it's a hundred times war. You
could feel it, you know, you could feel it. You could feel the the the the the as you as I was talking to these individuals, you could feel the the the the It's not so much grief, but it's call it lost innocence. I don't know what else could call it, you know what I mean, They've lost something in their lives and it was something that they would never get back. How about I put it that way? Right?
You talk about this that at that time when she was escaped and narrowly escaped, a killer. He ran off and set almost severed her ankle. The zachary DA's office, and this book is peppered with again, unfortunately missteps by law enforcement. And then later we'll talk about your take on the FBI profile. But I loved it. But the zachary DA's office didn't not choose to prosecute because the assault weapon, again, the sword cane, had been dropped in the rain.
Yeah, and that bothered me a lot. You know, it really bothered me. Oh boy, you know, I guess what I'm you know, what bothered me was that they had, you know, if they had prosecuted this guy, and I'm sure it bothers everybody who's close to this with a conscience, if they prosecuted him at that point, they would have saved lives. Of course, you know now they claimed they couldn't because the only piece of physical evidence tying him into the to Mischelle and a boyfriend's assault was the
what do you call it? The sword cane. It was in the in the you know, he dropped it. It was in the water and blop blah blah. But you know what, I'm sorry, I just thought buy it, you know, hell, you know, I don't know about you, but I've watched it. It's the I as you know, I get McGee on it in a second, not to mention Abby. Okay, okay, that's that's that's my popular reference to the Guitarre show.
Yeah. Absolutely, you also said too, they had some problem. Again I don't know the prosecutorial issues, but they said they only had Michelle Chapman's idea and it wasn't enough. I'll switch.
That's what they said, you know, that's what they said. So therefore they couldn't go. You know, that's what they said. And and you know, I'm reading, you know, I mean, I'm talking. I talked to some of these individuals. I read their you know, the you know, the police the police statements and so forth, and man, Dan, I just it really bothered me. And I'll tell you the funny thing is, I, you know, I hadn't even thought of that.
So today, well, you know, when I started re reading the book and reminding myself of stuff, and you know, to me, it represents a certain level of corruption, I suppose whatever.
Well, I don't know. I think we read obviously this person was arrested, and we'll read even in this story that there's some bright and good police work. So that's what happens. It's just it's sad to say in retrospect, jeez, this could have happened. That could happened. But you know, not too many of us want to be homicide detectives either.
So in this though, what you talk about is, and certainly this is not the first time, but this misstep, if we can call it, that leads to all kinds of other bodies and nurses strangled GERALDN DeSoto January fourteen, two thousand and two. Gina Green was September fourteen, two
thousand and one. But you talk about the same time, and and you talk about the person, Michelle Chapman, what she does in her life, and you talk about the physical therapy for her ankle for a year, but she had this determination to stay in school.
Uh.
But we also talk about the other person, her partner, Ricky Johnson. So two people in a simile in the same incident, but they were faring a little bit differently, maybe because of Michelle's attitude, but also Ricky's injury as well.
Right, Yeah, No, I mean, you're just you're really wow, you know, it's I mean, again, I was reading the material. The material can author his word for his book. I was reading the book again, because you know, you don't always remember every day, but I read it, and you know, and I'll tell you what you just got into was had these two people, this couple. Think about this for a second, folks, This couple sitting in a car and
the bad guy comes in. He and they're kissing, and you know, they're making out and so forth, and he protects her no words. This is a push comes to chef's situation, ladies and gentleman. And where it gets interesting is that what happens after that, Well, they both have physical injuries, but they wind up having I have to use that term, a love child together. They're no longer together, But isn't that interesting? I mean, I think that's really interesting,
you know. I mean, I you know that you know, they go through all of this stuff, you know, and he you know, and she fights Derek Todley too. I mean, these people didn't give up. And boy, you know again that says so much to me. You know, God forbid any of us should ever be in this kind of a situation. But these people wouldn't give up. And that's the one commonality of all the all the people that I spoke to in the book, not one of them
would give up. Isn't that interesting? I mean, you know, you know, you know it's it's not one of them he could you know when I got you know, and you could see it on their face, in their in their the way they held themselves and so forth. You know, I have to I guess what I'm really saying here
is we're talking. I'm realizing that this. You know, I don't like to talk a lot about God and stuff like that, you know, but I feel like this stuff touched me, you know, my spirit is what I wanted to say, if you will, you know, because of the individuals I was talking to, what had happened to them? Evil they face, I mean, you know, it's unbelievable to me. I mean I just you could feel it, Dan, I know this sounds weird, man, but I mean it. I could feel the evil of these individuals.
Well obviously they know, you know, they've experienced these incredible aberrations of humanity, these monsters in human form here. But you talk about how bad this gets as well, just because of you know, an aptitude or mistakes. We'll just chalk it up to some mistakes. We're talking about the police finally believe they have a serial killer in the
midst and this is an incredible serial killer. So to demonstrate that, in May thirty one, two thousand and two, Charlotte Murray pace to stab eighty two times, throat cut, ear to ear, beaten with a clothes iron. So you know, he was stepping up the pace and he was studying
escalating violent. They finally have somebody, though, I when you talk about police ineptitude, I said mistakes, But we have somebody named Danny Mixon, you know, and he fought hard and looked hard and took his job very seriously over and beyond, and he had Eric Lee Todd. Because you talk about one of the funniest things, and this no true crime books should be funny, but it's humorous because
of this. Again, sometimes the ineptitude is profound when the FBI profilers and you're not the first person to criticize the entire science in quotations of a forensic profile or a parton me of profiling, and so tell us what the profilers thought, and because you do take some time to show how wrong they could be and what the effect could be tell us a little bit about Danny Mixon and the FBI.
Well, just as far as the profiling is concerned, this is you know, this is pretty stand You know, there there is a well I don't know if it still exists, but I'll just say that certainly when I reported on it, that it was almost an innate prejudice that, uh, serial killers going to be African Americans, that be white guy, sure, that be white guys. And and I should mention that I don't know if you've ever interviewed Maurice Godwin, doctor Maurice Godway. No, Well, Maurice Godwin is a guy I met.
Oh it's got to be fifteen years ago, maybe more. But he is one of the world. He is certainly the United States is he is certainly the biggest expert in the United States on geographic profiling. And we did a book together years and years ago. And the point is, Maurice learned. I didn't realize this, you know that this is like a He went to a one of a kind of school at the Liverpool, you know, University of Liverpool. I don't know. Paul McCartney might have been one of
his teachers. Who knows but I got it in Okay. But anyway, here's the thing. Geographic profiling. What they're able to do and see, this is where we would have come into play, and especially in what we're talking about with Derek Toddley and Louisiana. You can pinpoint what the guy's area is that he's going to operate at. You can even pinpoint where he's going to operate next. This is how sophisticated it can be. But you've got to
get access to that technology. And there's your problem, right there makes no difference where you are unless you've got access to that technology. You got yourself a problem. And it's not going to do you any good to call up the FBI and say, behavioral science, would you lucky know what the guy looks like? Oh he's a white guy, he's middle class, doesn't have munch of an education, blah blah blah. You know, sorry, folks, let's you know, let's come into the twenty first century.
So anyway, yeah, it's pretty it can be generic. And obviously they've had many cases where their profile was absolutely wrong and it didn't they say, well, it's not a science, it's just a tool. But if it's a tool that doesn't lead you astray, then maybe it shouldn't be so highly regarded. And there have been some successes, but it seems like a lot more non success but it looks like it's again not maybe so reliant anyway on when they brought it in for the big cases, it didn't
seem to do much. But you have this old fashioned police work where you have Danny Mixon. He looks at he looks at Lee's prison record, and he says, Okay, they got these low level felonies and misdemeanors, but when he was out, these attacks and murders occurred. So you can call that profiling of sorts, but just basic police work where he had a hunch and then he had it if he had a DNA symbol.
So' isn't that interesting? What you just pointed out, What you really just pointed out, Dan, is that at the end of the day, with all of the technology and all this old fashion logic and shoe leather, yep, and really, you know, and and I know it sounds like a cliche, but it's true. You know, it really is true, and you know it's it's you know, it's I'll play you something you know, when you go into small towns, and I don't think it makes a difference whether it's in
the South, the northeast, the west. You know, what I've learned is you go into a small town, okay, and everybody knows everybody. Uh, of course you're going to have corruption, you know, because it's everybody knows everybody. There's there's no oversight, so you know, you know, and so when you start dealing with what we're dealing with here, and corruption is maybe I don't know if it's too strong a term, but sure, you know, when you start dealing with a
serial killer, okay. You know what I sometimes I personally wonder other people in law enforcement that really think Criminal Minds is a really is real? The TV show. I can't watch that show because it's all phony. I don't think fiction. Would you give me, you know, fictional lies something,
don't make it up completely? You know. I wish I could be here today and I you know, I don't mean to keep railing, but I wish I could be here today and say that you know that these dudes you know, are catching serial killers right left, guess what folks ain't happening?
You know, yeah, absolutely, because there's all start. There's also like like you tried, like you say, there's the if the serial killer or someone else. Ha said, the serial killer fits the profile till they don't fit the profile. So they fit the fit that description and stereotype, but then lots of people just don't. And our next guy that was talk about is exactly that, Dennis Raider and
BTK and the surviver that you spoke to, Kevin Bright. Yeah, you travel to Livingston, Texas, small little desolate places, say to talk to five foot six, one hundred and forty pounds, the only survivor of BTK. Yes, tell us about that meeting.
This is again it's I know, you know, you know, I don't. I won't be I won't be a writer here, I won't drama talks. It's not that it haunts me, but I'll always remember it. And what happened was I found him and he was Kevin was working as a cashier, you know, Walmart in East East Texas and I've never been to you know, I've been to Texas, but they
never been to East Texas. You know. Needless to say, it's you know, in terms of the lower forty eight, it's the biggest and I remember walking into the you know, I made up to meet him where he was working as a kissher and I walked in and I spotted him immediately. I couldn't believe it. It was like, you know, there was just something about him, and you know, I went, I'll tell you that his sister just to sum it up,
interrupt me at any point there. But his sister, to sum it up was he was in the same apartment as his sister when BTK ambushed him, and he eventually would kill his sister. And he survived it, shot and smothered and this and that. I say this and that, but I mean all this, Oh my god, all this. He was shot in the face and the jaw and the guy got out. This is in Wichita, Kansas, and I just thought of something. If this was one hundred and twenty years ago, the marshal on the case would
have been whiter. But anyway, he gets out in the street and he gets some help. But the thing about this is that he told me, boy, did this bother me? Dan? He told me, and his wife told me that he didn't have much of a relationship with certain members of his family. The intimation was that he should have done more to stuff his sister from getting killed by the
serial killer. That bothered me so much. I mean, I'm sitting there in this you know, in this you know this ranch else and uh well in Texas and he's telling me this, and boy, did that bother me. This guy had become a nomad. I mean he he was, he traveled around the Southwest. I think he was really looking for you know, why he's here, you know, the meaning of life. Call it whatever you want, you know, but it hits the boy. Did it hit me right between the eyes?
You talk about the attack itself.
Yeah, that.
He and his sister come back to the apartment where she lives, and he's inside. He's got a green Army type jack and he's pointing a twenty two Revolver at them. And as we know later, Raider had been stalking Kathy for over a week. And they asked him, what do you want so that these cowards like you write coward? And I agree, well, I want your car keys. I don't want money. I want but basically they're the rules is that they're not going to get hurt. He's just
they need money. This guy needs money, which certainly didn't need money, so some.
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Actually he didn't, Actually he didn't.
No, no, So basically he doesn't have ever have a like, just to make sure everyone knows he never does have a chance to protect his sister any much anymore than he does. Yes, and they both fought, and they both fought this guy.
So yes, I'm glad you pointed that out. Thank you. And the fact is he got shot multiple times and there was no way I mean, he you know, there was nothing for him to do but do exactly what he did was to break free when he could and try to get help. I mean, this, this raider is. You know, I don't like to give credit to these people. You know, you don't know if they could be listening, Dan, you know what I mean, But uh, this guy was. This is It's funny as I was going through the
material today, this is a particularly smart guy. Okay, we're talking. The guy's got a college degree and uh, you know, gee, he's not you know, he's not lower middle class, you know. I mean, this guy is very well accomplished, I mean very well accomplished, and and he's got to be the only serial killer that's ever appeared in public service announcements for h you know, for a political body, you know, for this in this case, case for for you know where he was living in uh and censs. You know,
he was in public service announcements. Oh my god. You know, think about that, folks, you know, I mean, that's that's just a weird one. But that's because he was so smart. And you know, all we can do is say, thank god. There aren't a lot of these kinds of individuals. I mean, Raider is really he's almost that of fiction, you know what I mean. I mean, he's just you know, he's a really cunning Oh god. And you know, he's smart guy, very smart guy.
You talk about the amount of time he was in the hospital to two hundred and eighteen days in hospital recuperating, but also at that same time, Raider still had the compulsion to communicate and taunt police. And you, as you say when you spoke to him, that Kevin Bright figured convinced, was convinced that BTK just might come and finish the job he started, didn't.
He Kevin was very very even even you know, years later, he was worried. He figured that this guy was going to come and get him, and it made absolute sense. You know, sometimes I s you know, as we're talking, Dan, I sometimes want you know, I've never even thought about
it until now. But considering I'm not advocating anything, but considering all the guns in the United States, dull, Okay, it's sort of curious that no one has ever gone after one of these guys, you know, in a you know what I'm saying, you know, I mean, it's you know, you would you know, Oh my god. I mean, it's like, these are the kinds of individuals that they you know, that the states passed death penalty statues for, you know what I mean. And I'm not a death penalty guy, so you know whatever.
M Yeah, with Dennis Rader, obviously people know the story of this. But when we talk about, you know, the subject of this book about God and divine intervention and them attributing their scrape with evil to God itself. So we didn't talk about Chapman's ron and the family, and Michelle Chapman in formed Michelle Chapman her attributing her survival to God. Let's talk about before we talk about let's talk about Kevin Brighton what he has to say about what he believes was God's role in this.
Oh he he, Kevin, you know there, I can see it, you know, And this is a good ten eleven years ago. He believes that God intervened and that you know, to help him, and uh he you know, he he. The problem is the problem is that even though he believes that, it doesn't give him peace, you know what I mean. But I mean it's a very interesting one when you think about it, you know, the oh boy, but you know again, it's it's you know, he's you know, there's always a sense of As I was talking to him,
you know, I'll just get I'll just say it. It was like he almost felt a sense of responsibility in some way, like he could have done something. That's he didn't say it, but I could feel it, you know what I mean. And I felt very badly for that because of that for him. I mean, I couldn't because I'm thinking about is my God, look at what this guy survived? You know. And and I'll tell you something else. It never occurred to me when I, you know, came up with the idea to do this or you know,
I mean, I'm not a religious guy. Yes, I believe in God. Okay, But it never occurred to me that people didn't like that, or that there might be some you know, negativity with that. I mean, it was very interesting and you know, but there was certainly some negativity that I found from readers regarding that. It's interesting how people look at these things, you know, it's it's you know, it really is interesting how people look at these things.
And of course these things change with time. Uh. You know, it's funny, Dan. You know, as I'm reading some of the stuff I'm going now, I understand why they while the editors always say, don't put the stuff in that could date that's the story, you know, just put the differences to TV shows, you know, especially me TV shows by the way. I mean, you know, somebody is going to hit me on the head if I mentioned the flash one more time, you know, in a book, the
comic book character. Okay, I've had it almost flashes.
Let's get back to Michelle Whitehead now, because it's very interesting what you ask her at the end of the interview with her brush with Serial Killer that you say, why didn't you die that night? And you said, and she said, I believe God said it wasn't time yet. I think he had something else from me in mind. And then you asked the question, did you ever wonder why you fought back? Because she said she didn't know what you meant by that, And why did you ask that question? What was her response?
Gee? And I'm gonna have to look at the book.
Well you did say, she said you asked why she fought back, and you said a lot of people don't fight back.
Yes, I was just going to say that a lot of people. Oh boy, See, a lot of people don't fight back in these kinds of situations. Well, I shouldn't say these because obviously this is pretty rare, Okay, when people are pushed against the wall, a lot of you know, in a life or death situation, there are a lot of people that just accept it. See that's what I'm getting at. They accept death. Not these people.
Well, at the same time, you see something. I know what you're saying. But at the same time, when you asked that question, I think why she was confused. It's because some victims decide, or potential victims or people that want to be victims decide compliance is a good ploy. And then you see that the people have escape. The spial killers clutches by making the right decisions right at that time.
Right, you're right, No, absolutely right, I forgot Yes, you're right. I didn't watch Long Order SVU today.
Yeah.
Yeah, But that doesn't take away from Michelle's spirit too. The thing is that she fought back and incredibly, you know, we talk about Kevin Bright, we talk about Kevin Bright. I can see why some people may have criticized him because he ran out of the home and went for help. But just after he'd been shot how many times, three or four times? He's anybody would really know what you'r. It's amazing that he even got up the first time, never mind the second.
I can't.
I can't believe it when you read it and you read he gets shut over hearing, he got shut over hearing, he gets shot the jaw, and he gets like he showed me. He showed me, oh man, Dan, he showed me the dent in his forehead. I can't. I'm sorry, folks, I'm just describing it. I mean, this was like really upsetting, you know, you know, What's it wasn't like I was watching a movie. It was you know, but you know, again,
it's it's their their perspective. But they all seem to have something in common hold these survivors, which is they really were looking, every one of them for their place in the world afterwards. Whether they find it or not, that's another story. But they didn't throw you know, these individuals were talking about didn't throw it away.
It's remarkable to you talk about Kevin studying to be a pastor and you ask him why and God protected him and he says, that's why I'm alive, That's why I didn't die. There's some purpose. And he says, really profound, he says, God sends people in our path. And he said another thing that was really amazing but disturbing was Kevin's family. They don't talk about Kathy's murder ever, they don't even bring up her name thirty one years and still but getting back to Kevin, he says God's hand
was in everything and protecting him that day. And you say, well, how did you get the power to rise up off the floor. Again, the answer is God's intervention.
Yep, yeah, yeah, I mean it's an incredible uh, you know, and and I have to give At the time the book was written, I had briefly moved over to Harper Collins. And this was the first book that I did for them at A three. And what happened was and you'll know, the book was widowed as you pull it in the business, the book, the the I had a wonderful editor name was Aaron Brown, but she left and somebody else took over,
and then somebody else took over. And when those things happen, it's certainly a sex what happens with a book, you know, and you know, but you know, these are the things that you sort of remember. And of course the other thing is the fact that when that book came out, it came out just the beginning of the recession.
Yeah, good timing, Oh man, I had good timing, man, but you know, you know, of course I had good timing on a mets Fand what do I know?
You know, well, it's great that these books, these books though, are still around today thanks to again some advances in technology. We because books used to just go missing after a few years or a short period of time. We're just not available anymore. So it's really it's one good sign for the publishing industry anyway, that books that deserve to be read.
You know, that's an excellent, excellent excellent point, you know, because a lot of people don't they talk negatively about ebooks, you know, and it's very interesting because and you know, we you know, I think that at this point. I don't know if you've ever got into a conversation about this on air, Dan, but I think ebooks have got to be up to thirty five. Yeah.
I think they are. Yeah, I think they are, and I think there's I think it's a good reason. I mean, a lot of the publishers were offering the e book at a substantially reduced rate, so they were attractive in that way. Now they've sort of adjusted it because it's just the same as you think. It was just the same as a book, except and it's just not collected on a shelf and a bookshelf. So I think it's good for the I think it's good because of the
print on demand. I think that's an amazing feature that people don't have to pay ten thousand books and ship them all over the world.
So really, oh, we've got to talk about that here.
Okay, let's get back to Let's get back to another incredible case and another incredible survivor. Lisa McVeigh, of course, a survivor of serial killers Bobby Joe Long, and we talk about we talk about Bobby Joe Long, but we need to talk about Lisa McVeigh because this is very important. This is a savage killer. This is an incredible savage murder spree. This guy undertook. Tell us about your meeting with Lisa McVeigh, all the circumstances that you came to be able to meet with her.
Well, what happened here was I didn't know anything about this Bobby Joe Long character, but somebody tipped me off at the Hillsborough County Sheriff's office in Florida write down a lot of books, including Lobster Boy, and and so I just, you know, looked into it, and oh boy, I wound up going and I was talking to Lisa McVeagh, who is a Jeputy sheriff Okay in Hillsborough County, and I'm sitting in this courtroom where the Lobster Boy case it happened. All right, I couldn't get over it. Dan.
It's like I was in the courtroom and she starts telling me the story about what happened to her when she was a teenager seventeen years old seventeen years old and was abducted by this dead guy, and how she survived, and oh man, it was just quite something. And the and what was so interesting about that was that later on after she survives and she, oh man, what she did? I don't know. I guess I can talk a little
bit about this. I mean, she he inducts her. She's driving home from a bus she was working with Duncan Donuts, seventeen years old. She's driving, she's on a bicycle, she's going home. He abducts her, puts her in a car, and but she pays attention. Actually that's sort of that's another common element. All of these people are paying attention. So she knows the kind of car it is, she knows what the uh you know, the seats and the
carpeting and so forth and so on. Anyway, he winds up taking a prisoner for a couple of days in a motel in the Campa area, and he rapes her repeatedly, and she is able to stay alive because she basically is able to play up to him in certain ways. And then he winds up this isn't this is incredible. I mean it's incredible. He lets her go. He drives him back to I mean, he can't make this stuff up, you know. He lets her go, excuse me, you know,
but that's what happens. And of course, you know, like again it's you know, she's traumatized like all the victims are, but what she decides to do with their life is completely different. She goes into law enforcement.
Go figure, Yeah, let's use this as an opportunity, Fred, just for a minute to talk about sponsor for this program. Zip Recruiter, are you hiring? Every business needs great people and a better way to find them, something better than posting your job online and just praying for the right people to see it. Zip Recruiter knew there was a smarter way, so they built a platform that finds the
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this incredible transformation from the attack. But what we didn't mention is the incredible research that you did here to talk about what would have turned into just a horrible life and suicide before she even met this incredible and
vicious serial killer. Because you talk about that she was working at the don't joint and she had been abused, and then when she went to her grandmother's house, then the grandmother's boyfriend abused her, and then at seventeen years old, he says, I think it's time to have a baby with you. He wanted to get her pregnant. So this woman was tired of being abused and she was contemplating suicide and then we take you take us to the
story where she's riding her bike home. She used to stay at work longer because she didn't want to go home, and then she runs into this man who clothes lines her and jumps her off a bicycle and then takes her for days and days of rape. Yes, and this woman survives by her instincts and her will to live, and he lets her go, believing somehow, in some warped way that he says, boyfriend's a lucky man, and you're going to go to the police, but I hope you don't.
But she did not do what he asked her to do, and she noticed every single solitary incrimination detail, even left her bloody tampon under the car seat so in case she were killed, at least people would know. Incredible, you know, she has all these skills of being a detective. That was pretty evident right there.
Well, he isn't an interesting you know what you just man? You picked up something right there. You know I should have seen that and said it. I didn't. You know, if I ever revised it, I'll say it to give you the credit. But you know it's interesting, isn't it. I mean? And I you know, I kind of Can I just tell you something. When the book came out, I was h I was interviewed by somebody what was her name, She deigned to think she was on the view for a while and she got a shout on
on Core TV and whatever they were calling it those days. Anyway, Lisa was there for the show they flew her in from. It was actually pretty you know, it was interesting they I don't know how they made a decision about who to fly in or whatever, but she was there and called an arrow who was a victim of the Son
of Sam. He was there and but that was it, you know, and but you know, but it was again, it was interesting to get these people in one place to you know, talk about whether the Kurt you know, in their lives, you know.
An go ahead?
Sorry, no, nothing, No, what do I what do I know on the net? Stand, I don't know anything. Come on, you talk about too.
The dialogue she had with Bobby Joe too. She asked him questions, keep them talking. She thought, you know, why are you doing this to me? She had the ability to, I guess, to suss him out that he wasn't going to respond negatively that asked that question. But he asked her questions like that, and what was his response to some of those questions. What did he sort of demonstrate in his answers that was kind of surprising.
Well, I think he demonstrated a certain amount of sympathy. Yeah, yeah, sympathy. I'm not going to use the word empathy, but sympathy. I mean, see, this is what's interesting. She was able to she is we're talking about it. It makes sense she was able to get into you know, as a person. My god, who gets into a serial killer as a person. You know, it's you know when you say, oh, you know, cooperate with the bad guys so you survive. That's one thing.
But we're talking about something where she's asking questions. It's like you said, I mean, this is a fortuita circumstance where she was a born detective. You know, she just had a talent. That's it. You know, she had a talent, and that, of course, will you know, eventually lead to the guy getting caught and so forth. You know, it's funny, actually I was thinking about it, like, gee, he's on
death row. Nothing's happening with him, you know. You know, it's like these days, it's a whole other story you know that, you know, especially in Florida, you know, the deafer a situation they have to and we do their their their statute for various reasons that would take too long to explain. But the bottom line is that right now nothing's happening. So Bobby jill Long has got himself, you know, you know, a while to go.
You write this incredible you include this incredible stuff where she's asking him why he did this. He said, well, I had a bad relationship, a girl broke off with me, and I'm getting back at women in general. Don't take this personally, he says, So just some incredible dialogue. Then the TV program they have a news bullet bulletin. Again
this is who needs criminal minds. There's a news bulletin interrupts the show and he says, seventeen year old girl missing, fear dead may be a victim of and he turns off the TV. And then she cries. He says, well, don't cry, I'm not going to hurt you. Gives her a sandwich and a drink, like, you know, like just had him, you know, an argument to lovers, you know, but you know, he says, what do you think I should do with you, and she says, I'll be your girlfriend.
I won't tell anyone what happened to me. I will take care of you, you know. And he says, well, I can't take the chance. He says, you can take me home. I have a sick father at home and he can't. He's not ready to live without me. I have to take care of him all day long. I even have to quit school to take care of him. And now you're taking away from my father. And that was not true. That was not true.
Yep.
So this woman has the ability, the incredible what's the word. I mean, it's not tenacity, what's the word, the wherewithal to realize and then under that incredible stress and trauma, and given what he had done so many times before, this is a remarkable performance on her part.
It is.
It is.
Yeah, yeah, you know, it's funny. As we're talking about it, I remember me, you know, talking to her, and that comes across. You know, there's a she she has a presence, a presence, you know, a real presence, and you know she I don't know what else to say except she's got a real presence. But you know, look, the fact of the matter is the one thing. You know, people aren't talking to me about her. You know how many hours, days, whatever they've spent in therapy, you know what I mean.
I mean they you know, there's a lot of therapy that's got there goes into this stuff too, and you know they don't talk about that obviously.
Yeah, and you talk too. When we talked about Michelle Whitehead and her father, Ron Chapman was there, this big hulk of a right with a veteran But tell us what his tell him, tell us tell our audience about him, because this is again what this did to him. This is visible when you're seeing later.
I'll be you know, this is why you're so good, because you can hit, yield, hit something personal. The thing is having a daughter. And here's this man talking to me about how his daughter was attacked by a serial killer and how it affected him. I was I was like devastated, you know, and not to mention the fact that this guy was a Vietnam vet, and but in as he talked about how his daughter had been abused,
assaulted by Derek Todd Lee, he was shrinking. You know what I mean, you know, you know, I talk a little bit about the fact that he was drinking, you know, booze. But that you know, big deal, you know. Yeah, but I could feel, you know, the powerlessness because he couldn't do anything to help his daughter. You know. This was of course after the fact. It's like every parent's worst nightmare.
You know. You can only protect the child up to a certain point and then boom, something like this happens, you know, and but the good news she survived. That's the good news, you know, in these days, using the words survive counsel lot, you know what I mean. Yeah, I mean it good. No, no, glhead, yeah, I don't have anything to say, no, you know, I just no, no, no, no, I'm.
Just his.
Man, his and he was oh my god, was he frustrated. Oh god, he was so frustrated with the cops. Oh. He didn't have anything nice to say about them. I mean, I mean, this was you know, and I really felt for the guy, you know. You know, in the United States. It's probably the same in Canada, but the United States. If a local sheriff, for example, doesn't do his job for whatever reason, the United States attorney has oversight. The Feds.
You know, the Feds have oversight. But two things first, that's not so easy to get done under ordinary circumstances. Number one and number two. Right now, we're lucky. We still have a justice department. Moving right along, folks.
Sure one thing we didn't mention too, This is Lisa McVeigh. And know I mentioned that the grandfather of the grandmother's boyfriend had abused her, and before the act she had said never again. Well, when she got through all of this ordeal and came home, the grandfather the boyfriend tried the raper as he said, if you touch me, I will kill you. I will take a gun to your head and kill you. No one who's ever gonna touch me again?
And he isn't that.
Complied with that, didn't he?
Yeah? But isn't that interesting?
Turned into a very strong person. It's amazing, It's amazing. This, this recovery is beyond recovery.
Yeah, if not interesting, what you picked up in something really interesting there there, Dan, I mean yeah, I mean, because remember I'm just reporting, but you really picked that's
pretty you know. You know one thing, so here we have a situation where where she's repeatedly raped by this stepfather whatever whatever he is, and and then you know, she goes out the same thing happens with a serial killer, and that empowers her to turn around and say to the stepfather, you do this again, you're gonna wind up, you know, sleeping with the fishes, with local broxy. So that's pretty interesting, isn't it.
It's an amazing you know, the life that some people have had to endure, and this, certainly this woman already had a pretty terrible life up to that point. Once economy being suicide at a young age. Let's talk about Now let's talk about another incredible survivor and again another amazing killer, Ted Bundy. But I had not read about this woman at all, well, none of these survivors, but this one is another. We have to get to this story of Nita and Neeri at the Kyomega Sority house.
A while after Ted Bundy has escaped a couple of times, it makes his way down to Florida and this Kyomega sorority house where he's killed two and three others. He's club senseless, as you say, tell us a little bit about Nita NEARI and her brush with death near Brush.
Well, this is the one that got had all. Let me take a breath out of every case that I've written about reported on this is the only time that I really had. It wasn't so much nightmare as I could really feel bad guy. What happened with Nita was this in the late seventies. She is a college student at the University of Florida, Gainesville, so of Central Florida. Goes out in something call it a cag party, and she said that she only had a couple of beers.
She came back to the Serrari house and she comes into like a living room and oh boy, and at the far into the living room is pretty well lit. There's a lot of lights on, and she starts to trn a light off because it's night and so forth. At the far into the living room, there's a stairway leading upstairs where the girls sleep, and suddenly a dude comes down holding a club. She sees him, but because of her position, who can't see her. And this is
where it really gets interested. Nita maintained that she did not advance further into that room because she could feel her grandfather's hand on her shoulder stopping her, and she didn't advance further into the room. Bundy left killed two more people after that, and eventually when they captured him. She is the one who I dat him and eventually put him in the electric chair. I have to show you then go, you're gonna say.
You you say that she saw him, and just before that she said, you say one more second, she said one more second, and she would have been clearly visible to him. Yeah, well, what did she see in his hand?
Club? It was some sort of club, but she didn't know what it was, you know, I I ll, man, I don't know what a club looks like, you know, but you know, he had some sort of club and it was a bloody club that he used to kill the women upstairs. That's what she saw. And she went through She she she you know, was uh interviewed, you know, by the prosecutor. And so she's she eventually testified against Bundy a trial, you know, and I, you know, I never used this word, but I'll just say it. Hey,
we're on podcast. Nita Neary put ted Bundy's ass in the chair. Yeah, seriously, this is a brave, brave woman, because, oh boy, she has to go into a courtroom in Florida and he's representing himself. He questions her, Oh my god, you know, it's unbelievable, you.
Write as well, though, but sorry you right as well though, that the reporters published her address in the newspapers and their names everywhere.
She told me that, Nita told me. When I entered the NATO. We were in Kentucky and Nita told me that at that time she lived in Indiana. That's where she lived full time and with appearance, and the newspapers published for some reason, I don't know why, I you know that they published her address and she was where use of course Ted was going to come and finish the job.
Sure, you say too. Interesting is that the women that were that she knew from the sorority you couldn't go to the memorials? Well, why wouldn't she allowed to attend the memorials?
Oh? There are a couple of reasons, you know. First off, first, theformance is always safety. Second is the they always try to keep their witnesses separate, you know, from getting involved in anything. That's sort of the typical way of doing things, at least down in Florida, and she I think needed felt. Also, look, here is a situation where somebody is barely an adult, as you know. Now, certainly Bundy was identified at that
point as a serial killer. It wouldn't be much until later that we would look at him in a classic way for lack of a better term. Okay, so she is in you know, big Doodoo up to her, you know what, because now she's going to testify against this guy and they published, you know, he doesn't even make any difference whether they published. You know, once they publish what town you're in, duh, anybody can find you, you know.
So you know, but they got you know, they got him fairly, I will say, fairly quickly, but within a couple of months of the murders and game Still you.
Also say that what she did was she was told or she learned that if a potential witness, and she realized the importance of her being a star witness, that that what would happen is if you went to counseling, they might use that against you. I don't understand that. But she said, okay, I'm not going to get any counseling, and then went and did this very very you know, difficult cross examination. She says they portrayed her all kinds of negative ways at trial, didn't they.
Yes, and oh man, oh man, oh man, I mean and Remember, folks, even though Bundy's representing himself, he's got somebody working, you know, a professional at Journey, right. And you know they tried to, you know, say that she was drunk that night. You know, they tried to insinuate things regarding her sex sexually, you know, et cetera, et cetera.
You know, the idea, of course is to break her, like you know her, make her not be a plausible witness for the prosecution, because she's the one who's saying this is the guy. You know, this is the guy. I mean, you know, you don't have you know, actually, as we're talking about it, let's face it, folks, there aren't too many cases where you know, you're going to put somebody in the you know, into the death chamber
and a basis of a an identification. Usually there's a lot more think about it, because an identification can always be broken one way or the other, especially on cross examination. And here she is being cross examined by the killer. But by the way, I have to mention this, I
have to mention this. You know, I remember when I was writing the book and today when I was looking it over, do you know that they do have working Oh boy, they got a new movie coming out about I think it's a movie about Bundy.
Yeah. Absolutely.
And but back in the day, you know, back in the I want to say it was the nineteen eighties, there was a mini series where Mark Harmon of all people, played him and he was brilliant, right just mentioning it, folks, you know, if you want to get a hold of it, I think he was really you know, won long before he did. N Cis.
Yeah, it was called a Deliberate Stranger. It's I've seen it. It's quite good.
Actually, man, you got a good memory. No, that's cool.
You talk about Nita too that at some point she was discouraged, but then she got a letter from Lisa Levy's mother.
Yeah, it encouraged her. Yeah, she got a letter from one of the victims' mothers, and it encouraged her to just keep going. I mean, it's it's oh man, I mean, folks, I mean, you know, I'm sitting here and I'm shaking my head because I can't imagine what it would be like she walk into a courtroom. I have to get understand and face a killer, you know what I mean, Even though you know it's not so much it's not you know, you're not what Look, he's not going to
do anything. But you see what I'm saying. You know, it's just the vibes.
You talk about her love of art and her talent as an artist and its relation to this case as well. Tell us what is very interesting what she had to say about that and into effect on this case.
She felt, oh, well, she is an artist and or Or was an artist, and it was something that she really wanted to do, and of course it's one of those things that you know, derailed her, but at the same time it derailed her, It was derailed for a period of time, but then eventually she got back into it teaching it. And so essentially what this did was it saved her emotionally, I would say personally, I would say,
that's just my you know, my analysis of it. The fact that she was into it saved or emotional What do you get that dance?
Well, basically what she did she said that her artistic ability, her artistic ability helped in the sketch. That was quite accurate when you look back at it, and you know, help helped in the case. And she felt that that was just faithful that she had an interest in art because she kept not being as satisfied with it and said, no, no, the nose, the nose isn't quite right. And then after she saw it, she said, yeah, I think that's very good.
I think that's a really good so so that she felt that everything was connected.
Now, I'm glad you reminded me. Yes, absolutely, and she that did help her in turns well, actually, as we talked about it and more than helped her. It nailed it. You know, it nailed the guy. You know, it nailed the guy. You know, otherwise we're not having you know, you know, this conversation. I mean, you know, oh man, Yeah, she nailed the guy.
She also said that, you know, was very Again, I've never read anything like this. She said she didn't regret even being involved. Yet, she said none of it. She's never regretted any of it. And you could see that with what she does now. She volunteers for an organization called Kids in Court. So tell us she's what she's doing with this organization.
Well, she advocates the kids who wind up in court. But the bottom line is that this is a woman who is trying to pay it forward. That is that since she was able to survive. He wants to help other people survive, and she feels a certain responsibility to do that. That's pretty rare.
Absolutely, yeah, and she did. She said she had a divorce, she found a counselor, she learned to meditate, and she said she had to endure Mark Harmon's performance and deliberate Stranger too as well. Yeah, I mean, I would imagine these people can't be too happy with any kind of movie portrayal of anything. I can't imagine anyway.
Well, you know what happened when I was writing the book, I found out that an old friend of mine from film school, my friend Greg Rose, I changed his name in the book, but he'd been friends with one of Bundy's victims. And it was somebody you know who used to do He was a DJ and radio in Seattle, and she was someplace else south with him and she would deliver snow reports. I think it was you tak whatever. But the point is, you know, I couldn't believe it.
You know, somebody I knew for many many years had known one of Bunde's vis mm hm, you know, and.
Whatever you talk about, there's again there's seven victims, survivors. I should say the victims, survivors, survivors, all of these incredible crimes. One of the more interesting cases, and not so much be ported because obviously I've done this for eight years and haven't seen a new book about this anyway. But Richard Speck Chicago, eight women in one day, Corason and you, I will mispronounced this, but Anu Erro, Yeah, a Pino nurse came over from the Philippines, as many
Philippines do. As you write, there's they export incredible amount of peopable nurses, especially the US. But tell us a little bit about this woman, Corazon Rao and her survival.
Oh yeah, Well, what basically happens here is this guy spec Richard Speck, Well, you can't make up these names. He winds up getting into a suite in Chicago where there are these nurses from uh, from the Philippines, and of course what he winds up doing is taking control of them, abusing them and killing it except for corazont and she's able to survive by hiding. And it was a very every very big case here in the United States in the mid sixties. And this happened. I remember
it even when because I was a child. But she is able to survive by basically hide.
The pardon me. The incredible thing is that there is two people in this room. This Richard Speck knocks on her door and he pushes his way and he's got a brown pistol and alcohol in his breath.
Yep.
Again, explain the again, just the will to live that this Corenzo exhibits a corson exhibits part of me.
Well again, what happens here is that while her friends, you see, as we talk about this, the will to live, the one thing that the one yeah, the one thing that's in my head about all of all of these zippoms is this. I don't I can't explain it, but I'll just say it. They don't panic. That thinking doesn't go out the window.
Mm hmm.
They they think logically. They think about how am I going to survive? And you know, and that's a pretty interesting point in that, you know, I don't you know, we we as a species have something in us that makes us want to survive. But why is it that certain individuals something else kicks in, like in Corazona Quino's case. You know, So I think the answer to that one is that is that we don't know. You know, we don't know if it's genetic, it's it's it's it's in
nature and nurture, whatever be. But she just determines that she's not going to become a victim. And when she does, and when she does survive, she's able to summon else And that's pretty damn unique. And it's funny as we're talking about this, because I remembered something. She wasn't so easy to find. Dan that I found her, I did something I've never done. I let her go. I decided I didn't want to bother. I just said I can't. I can't good conscience after you know, when I read
all the details of what this woman went through. You know, some people, you know, others are different. But in this case, I just couldn't do it. I guess. You know.
You write about this incredible story, amazing story. One by one. Richard Speck gathers all these eight women into one room, and then one by one they take them. He takes one by one out of the room. He assures them you're not going to get hurt. He ties them up fulls out a knife. But she can hear the muffled sounds in the other room, and one by one they're
being taken out of the room. So she has the forethought, the wherewithal to say, I'm going to roll under this bed and roll all the way to the wall and hope this guy can't keep track of eight. And she stays there and stays there, quiet and hearing muffling muffled sounds, and then an alarm clock goes off in the room, and she figures, well, that might frighten him, but he doesn't come back in the room. So finally he goes out to the second story window and again incredibly freaked
again not running through the house. She wants to get out the first window and yell and scream and say they're all dead. They're all dead, My friends are all dead. So I can understand what you're saying. This is this woman. Her response is different than the others. It just it seems more profound horror that she went through with this.
Richard Seah, Yeah, that's it. She And you can't you can't quantify it, you know. Why is it that one person responds to this kind of stress one way and another does another way? You know what I mean? But sure as heck, oh man, you know she knew what was happening. You know.
Yeah, this Richard Spec too. You again, I'd not read this stuff before. At the time that they're working with Amarero, she's described him. And he's at Pete's bar with a twelve hosh knife on his belt and he's telling stories of killing people in Vietnam with this very blade. Then he's demonstrating how he killed them with the twelve inch blade on the bartender's throat. They try to kick him out, but he's such a charming guy they let him stay in there.
Yep.
He goes to another bar and then he hears oh lo and behold the thing that changes his life. There's a survivor. He hears about this braggadeiro bragging and boasting. Hears about a survivor, and it worries him, doesn't it?
Yes, it does good. Yeah, sorry, sorry, Richard. The funny thing about this Respec thing too, is when I looked it up, Oh, man, this guy he was going through some what do you call it stuff? Gender reassignment?
Oh yeah, yeah, I mean, so, you know.
This guy had a lot of pro you know, problems in that you know, in that respect.
Well, it's just it adds another interesting levels soon as you think, well the story is wrapped up. No, no, he's getting a sex change, and controversy on how he could get female hormones and also a very controversial video of him enjoying us is an unlimited sex life with the courtesy of somebody got these hormones. So he's getting a sex change and parting it up according to him
in prison. You know, it's interesting. It's interesting, though what you include is this amazing She gives a composite drawing. She's interested, she gets a drawing maid, helps get the drawing maid, and yet again a bunch of missteps by police. A couple of cops stop them, but they're unaware of her description or that he's even a suspect, so they leave. So the other cops are on his trail and they have this air tight forensic evidence as you write, and he goes to the Star Hotel to try to kill
himself with this piece of glass. He's rushed to the hospital again, the cops never came after somebody said, hey, listen, the guy you're looking for. Here's the guy. So the guy at in the ambulance amazingly recognizes the tattoo that says born to raise Hell remembers the wanted poster, and this guy's gig is up incredibly yep, yep, yep.
Yeah, like I'm laughing, because if you don't laugh, you just declining, you know, I mean.
And and you also talk about this court case too, because it's this is not her ordeal isn't over as well, because now you get to the court case and she doesn't have an easy ride at this court case either, does she now?
Of course, of course not. And you know what else is there? Somebody is climbing, you know, something like this. Anytime a woman is climbing any sort of sexual assault going on, whether with herself or somebody else, she's always going to be put through the wringer. That's the way our system works.
Yeah, it's sad, very but yeah, this woman, this woman is so strong. Like you say, put his ass in the electric chair, or at least he would have put him in the electric chair, because he died of a heart attack in nineteen ninety one. Yep, yep, yes, this You have seven survivors of these most seven incredible serial killers. It really is again stuff I've never read before, and I thought I read most things about most of these cases.
So it's incredible that the information that you were able to garner, and especially in the basic research for this, but then one upping it with the perspective of the victims, the survivors, I should say, potential victims survivors of these you.
Know, thank you so much for saying that. I mean, I it was. You want to know something, I just remember it something I'll never forget it. When I was on the way to the airport to go to Louisiana, right, oh, I lost I lost the transmission of my car. It's amazing how you can remember these things. And I'm going, Jeeve, man, you better get to the airport and I'll never forget they told they told the car, you know, and I was in the front whatever you know, to the airport,
I got out and so forth. But it was just it was just one of those books where so many things were happening at that time, personally, professionally, but especially the stories these people told. Oh my god, I mean it just oh, you know, it made you feel It made at the end of the day, it makes you feel good, you know what I mean. You know, it makes you feel good.
Well, there's some somewhat happy endings in this and a lot of people attributing their survival to God and then going from there and helping others, and it just to the accomplishment of just getting their life not to be destroyed is a major accomplishment. Never mind people surviving, identifying the killer, witness testifying at trials, successfully surviving the media, you know, being trashed by the means, right, all these things.
These are incredible survivors we've had survived. I've had survivors on this show before in individual cases. This is a collection of the most some of the most spectacular stories and spectacular tales of survival.
And go on to thank you.
So I want to thank you very much, Fred, once again. It's always a pleasure to have you on.
Good show. Favorite Dan. I can't thank you enough. And I just have to let you know that I actually had somebody who contacted me from New Zealand who was listening to you, and I just think that is the coolest thing man in the world. Thank you so much for having me.
Thank you so much, Fred for coming on and explaining this incredible story. There but for the grace of God, survivors of the twentieth centuries infamous serial killers. Hope to talk to you again real soon, Fred, it's been too long. Thank you very much to have a great evening, Fred.
Rosan too Audios, Kimo, sati adios.
Good night,