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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening. The World Encyclopedia of serial Killers is the most comprehensive set of its kind in history of true crime publishing. Written in compiling by Susan Hall, the four volume set has more than sixteen hundred entries of male and female serial killers from around the world. Defined by the FBI as a person who murders three or more people over a period of time with a hiatus of
weeks or months between murders. Serial killers have walked among us from the dawn of time, as these books will demonstrate. While the entries to these volumes will continue to grow, The FBI estimates that they are at least fifty serial killers operating in the United States at any given time. The World Encyclopedia of Serial Killers is as complete as
possible through the end of two thousand and seventeen. In June twenty twenty, the set begins with Volume one, Letters A to D. The entries include Ted Bundy, The Candyman, Dean Coral, Angel of Death, Killer, Donald Harvey, the ABC Killer, and the Bodies in the Barrel Murders, among many others. You will find these killers and approximately five hundred others in this first book in the series of the World Encyclopedia of Serial Killers, Volume one A to D, with
my special guests, journalist and author Susan Hall. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Susan Hall, thank you for asking.
I'm pleased to be part of your show.
Thank you so much for joining me. Let me start with how you came to want to write this, compile and write this encyclopedia, the World Encyclopedia of Serial Killers. How did you come to this project?
Okay, it started out just as a hobby of mine way back in the early nineteen seventies, I heard about a killer in Michigan who was killing co eds at Eastern Michigan University and the University of Michigan, and a book was finally put out called the Michigan Murders. And this was a young man named John Norman Collins who killed seven co eds up there, and his uncle, who was a state highway patrolman, was instrumental in his capture.
Now, tell us just how you put this together. What was your crimetera? Because there are a lot of serial killers in here that I have not read about before, and I've read various compilations. So tell us the process that you went undertook to be able to compile and write this encyclopedia.
Well, in the beginning, Dan, it was just for my own information. It started out as the hobby of mine.
And I realized I had, you know, all of these sheets and sheets and sheets of paper because I printed it all out that I was keeping in a book, and I started compiling it into some sort of a book, and I thought, you know what, other people write encyclopedias, and they have a hundred fifty or one hundred and seventy six, which I have, both of them here on my desk, and I thought, I don't know how many I've got, but I've got a lot more than that.
So my husband and I discussed it, and we decided that I would put it in book form, and if I could get someone to publish it, that was fine. Otherwise I had a.
Nice book for myself, fantastic and tell us about the plans for the other volumes that we just alluded to in the introduction.
The volume two E through L is going to be available. I believe the date is August. The twenty fourth. Book three and four do not have a published date yet, but my guest would be October and December.
Interesting, before we start providing some really dramatic examples of some of the serial killers that I had not heard of, and you have a fair amount of detail about some of these serial killers. Were there any surprises in this putting this book together? Even though you have been a big fan of serial killers and true crime for many years, were there any real dramatic surprises in putting this together?
Probably the biggest was how many killers there were all over the world. I thought it was, you know, more or less just a us thing I hadn't heard of. Any But as I got to investigating, I found more and more and more, you said, Now, I went to libraries, I searched the internet, endlessly compiled. There's all kinds of lists out there of serial killers. You can get serial
killers by country, you know, just endless. I had. When I was almost finished, so that I could turn the book over to the publisher, a new list came out with over two hundred new serial killers, all in Russia. And I ask and was granted an extension because I felt they had to be in the book.
Certainly. Certainly. Now let's go to some incredible examples. And one of the entries in there, writ in the letter A and near the beginning of the book, is Wolfgang Abel. And you say he was born in nineteen fifty nine and born in Dusseldorf, West Germany, and his partner Furland Omario Furland. He was born in nineteen sixty and born in Padua, Italy. And you say they began their murders
in August nineteen seventy seven in Italy. Tell us how they started, and tell us a little bit about the characteristics of their crimes and some of the crimes that they committed. In this some of them more serial killing crimes.
The very first one that I know about, they burned alive gypsy who was also a drug addict. Another you know, they asked people to death, They stabbed people to death. It's just horrific what these killers do to people.
They crushed the skulls of two priests with a hammer, you write in Verona, and they burned a sleeping hitchhiker to death. They murdered a homosexual priest in Trento with a nail hammered into his head, and then they hammered a chisel with a wooden cross on it into his head, and you write at each crime scene they left the leaflet. Tell us a little bit about this leaflet and what was it contained.
Okay, it had the name Ludwig on it over a Nazi eagle and a swastika. It had a slogan for each murder and the reasons for the killing. They and victims were chosen for any reason that Abel and Furland could come up with. It was just you know, miscellaneous.
Yeah, the typical victims homosexual prostitutes. And you say what they considered sub humans as well?
Yes, well, like the coward drug addict.
Yes, How was Abel and Furland caught? What happened? Let me think, Well, they were caught.
They were caught in Yes, with gasoline and a crowd and a discotheque. I won't even try to say the name. I don't speak French. But that was in nineteen eighty four, and they were charged with seven twenty seven counts of murder. Between the years nineteen seventy seven and nineteen eighty four. They didn't go to trial for almost two years, and they were only found guilty of ten murders and were sentenced to thirty years in prison, which I understand is the maximum they can get in Italy.
Now you right, though, that they were strangely released on bail pending their appeals, So normally there has to be some grounds for those appeals before anything like releasing them on bail would be considered. What did they do once they were released on bail.
Though, Well, they left the area. Abel went to a town called Mestrino, and Ferland traveled to another town which he was recaptured in Crete a false name, and they were both returned to Italy.
Now you write, the appeals court sentenced them each to twenty seven years in prison incredibly. In November twelve, twenty ten, Mury o'furlan was released on probation for good behavior. And then you write that Wolfgang Able was freed on November fourth, twenty and sixteen. Remarkably.
Yes, yes, I find that remarkable.
It is remarkable too. I know about Canadian sentencing and you see all kinds of cases in these in this book. They are all about serial killers, and you have we'll talk about it, but there's a couple people that are such strong suspects you include them even though they aren't officially been convicted of being a serial killer. It was interesting how many of these convicted serial killers, multiple convicted obviously of multiple murders, were released eventually, even despite life sentences.
I know, and I don't understand that at all. I think when you get life it should mean that I do too.
I certainly. I think it's a slippery slope when you start exempting people with a life sentence that doesn't mean an actual life sentence, and it is strictly or incredibly it's an incredible example when you have serial killers in Europe, and I would say potential for Canada as well too, and they do have cases of people being released despite what you would call a life sentence. So real misnomer,
this life sentence, but these people released. Let's get back to some more of these incredible serial killers that you have in this world. In side klopedia of serial killers, let's talk about the beasts of Montremtre. And I apologize for the mispronunciation. But a person named Theory Paulin who was born in Martinique but lived in France, and he was homosexual, and he met eventually when he was working
as a waiter at a transvestite nightclub in Paris. He met Jean Thiery Matharin, who was nineteen years old, and they became lovers right away. In October nineteen eighty four, a woman named Germaine maybe it's a male, I'm not sure. Germaine petitoat ninety one years old, was assaulted, but they survived, but were too traumatized to give police a description. They went on to continue with terrorizing elderly people. The next victim was eighty three years old, beaten and smothered.
Yeah, that the same night.
It was the same night. Incredibly, that was the motive. What was their motive for these crimes and what was their hall that first night that you report.
I think that their initial purpose was robbery. Why they felt a head they had to kill these old women. I haven't you know they're defenseless, m h I you know they they beat.
Them, They beat them, They robbed them.
You wrote, robbed them, had them smothered with a pillow. Altogether, I think they murdered like eight women or eight more women, which made ten altogether.
You're right, they might have started off with robbery as a motive, but they seemed to enjoy themselves. Some had bags over their heads and one was forced to drink drain cleaner. So some sadism actually involved here, and Paulin and Mathaman spent their nights dancing and drinking champagne and snorting coke, using the victims cash and credit cards. You write about a second wave of murders December eighty five to June eighty six, eight more elderly women were murdered.
Police detectives know that it's the same person. They're determined as the same person that killed nine in nineteen eighty four. Yes, in late eighty six, you say that Paulin attacked a coke dealer with a bat but didn't kill him. What was the sentence for that attack.
I'm that coke dealer and you know I let's see, he was arrested and served one year in jail.
Yeah, incredible, he was released. He continued to lavish lifestyle. You write, using stolen credit cards. What disease does Paullen discovery? He has?
He has eight he found the AlSi had age.
So in November, this doesn't deter him from murdering and continuing to murder. He murders a seventy nine year old woman and then attacks a woman named Berth Philanatri Fhilanatiary and she's eighty seven years old, and left her for dead. The last victim, you right, is Genevieve Germont, and he strangled her two days later. However, you write that birthday and I mispronounced with Philanoi. The eighty seven year old
recovered on the killer's birthday. Tell us what she's able to do for police, what she's able to give police.
She gave them a very good description and a local police inspector recognized him from her description as he was walking down the street, and he was arrested and admitted all of the murders and his relationship with Matherin.
And as a result, you write that Theory became ill in nineteen eighty eight because of the effects of AIDS and he died in hospital in eighty nine. But Matherin, on the other however, was tried and convicted of the first nine murders and he was given again we just mentioned this. He was given a life sentence plus eighteen years without parole. I guess eighteen years without the eligibility parole.
He was paroled in January two thousand and nine. Again clear evidence of why on earth he was able to be released.
Yeah, I don't understand their thinking. These people cannot be rehabilitated.
Oh, certainly, certainly. Now we have another case I thought was very very interesting as well, and we talked about James Lee Crummell from Michigan. This is a child molester and child killer and at you right, at eight years old, he performed the sex act on an neighborhood boy for a pocket full of pennies. And this was just an incredible disturbing background in his youth. He quit school in grade nine for hitting a student and knocking down the principal.
And you write that he always said his mom was domineering and treated him like the little girl she always wanted. His father died at fourteen. At seventeen and listed in the army. What happened one year later while he was in the.
Army, Well, he was molesting little boys, and he was court martialed in the state of Missouri. He was sentenced to ten years and sent to Fort Leavenworth, Kansas.
A military psychiatrist tested Crumwell. What did they find. What did they write in their reports about Crumbell?
They said that he had the emotional maturity of an eight year old.
Yeah, go ahead, I apologize. You say his mother died when he was in prison and he was released after four years only and then you write about a partner named Steve Scheimer. What did the partnership, what did they do, where did they go? And what happened in February sixty seven with the pair?
Okay, there was a little boy, a fourth grader, who was riding his bicycle to his best friend's home, but he never arrived there. The neighbors all got together and looked for him and called and got the police involved. Shortly after midnight, they found his body in a ditch about two hundred yards from his home, and he had been strangled with the belt around his neck.
And so what happened as a result of that investigation? Of course police are are are are investigating what happens.
Well, let's see. Huh they left the area, Crumwell and Shimer they moved to Wisconsin. So they continued their killings in Wisconsin.
Mm Uh.
They first killed a fourteen year old boy who was hitchhiking home from football practice in a wealthy Milwaukee subdivision.
Uh.
Crumwell picked him up and they stopped for ice cream and uh he asked. Crumbell asked the boy if he wanted to go on a delivery with him. Uh. The boy agreed. In a short time later, Crumbell stopped the truck and told Steve that he wanted to show him a trick. He told him to hold his hands out in front of him, and then he tied him together. He told the boy to try to get out of it, and Steve the boy told him that he couldn't. Crumwell asking to continue, but he still could not. He asked
Crumbel to untie him. Crumble then made the boy lay down on his back and then blested him. They got back in the truck and grub away. He stopped later on and molested the boy again, and he found the tree limb and he beat the boy very severely and tossed him into a ravine. The boy did survive and the next day he was found by neighbors. Crumwell was arrested for that a couple of days later.
You write that when Steve Scheimer was interviewed, he told them that Crummell had confessed the killing Frank klaus In the fourth grader in Arizona. So when Prima County sheriff detective got to Wisconsin, what happened with this Steve Scheimer's confession.
Well, crumber denied the confession and the murder. The Arizona County or the Arizona sheriff detectives went back home. Conson sentenced him to thirty years for the salt on the on Steve the young boy.
Right you right though, that Arizona Sheriff's department thought this guy was going to get thirty years for the Steve Scallon assault. You know, it's close to murders you could possibly get and the sexual assault. But Crumbell was out in five years. You write and then now living in southern California. However, you write that there's a law man that enters the story named Bob Loo or Bob Low, and you take it from there. He takes his job
very seriously. The first job, first day on homicide, you write that he says, I want that Frank class in case of the fourth grader, doesn't he Yes, he said he wanted to.
Put the guy away. He walked into the sergeant's office and told him I want the case. It's solvable and Krumwel is dangerous and he got the job of going after Crumwell.
Uh.
He read the the file on it, which was several inches thick, and he knew the closs and caseh you know, from beginning to end.
Uh.
He did manage to find Crumwell, who was then living in Lido Beach, California, with a new Newport Beach psychiatrist. But he Crumbell was calling himself Jimmy Savage at that time.
But you write that the Low he found Scheimer at first in Texas and instead of he he knew where he knew Crumbel, where where Crumbel was. But his approach was to talk to everybody. Uh, talk to family members, old friends, other victims, and psychologists. He read all the reports. He spent hundreds of our weekends and nights building the case. You write by nineteen eighty two, tell us what happens in May of eighty two.
Okay, May of eighty two.
He is taken to Arizona. Yeah, he was taken for a preliminary. But at the preliminary you write, Steve Scheimer, what happens regarding his statements to police?
Okay, he recanted his statements to the police about Crumbell's confession and said he couldn't remember. The case was dismissed and the law was crushed, but determined to see that Crumbell pay for Frank Klausen's murder. So Crumwell at that point returned to California and went to a party in Coosa, Mesa, wearing a Martian costume with silver glitter. All through the evening he was making passes to one at the men
of the party, but the guy ignored him. The host went to check on his son and there was Crumbell neil anthe boy's bedside, with black he was wearing shrouding him. The boy's father had tacked Crumwell. The others at the party joined in and beat him severely while he was awaiting the molus test molestation charge in Coast to Mesa. There was a change in case law in Arizona that allowed Scheimer's former statements about Crumbell's confession into the into
the trial even if Scheimer would not cooperate. But Crumbell was acquitted of the charges in Costa Mesa.
Incredible.
In February of eighty three, l'al got an arret guest warrant, and Crumwell was on his way back to Arizona. On November the fifteenth of eighty three, he was found guilty of Frank Clausan's murder and was sentenced to life, but a year later that was overturned. His new attorneys convinced the judge at their client had received a raw deal when his original attorney failed to adequately represent him and failed to cross examine key witnesses.
So the second trial had its problems. You write again, incredibly, what else happens at this second trial in terms of problems? What's missing?
Okay? They lost footprints and a handprint that had been taken at the crime scene, a key witness had died, Scheimer still wasn't operating, and a hare that had turned up on the clothes of Frank Glasson that on the clothes that he was wearing that night wasn't Crumbell's. So the prosecutors felt they didn't have enough evidence for a new trial and let Crumwell plead out to kidnapping. He walked out of prison a year later.
So a year later he he walks out of prison. Is not the end of the story, No, No, he was.
He was questioned about the other murder's uh murder of Jack Phillips uh and the murder of Jeffrey Vargo who was only six years old, and the murder of a James Trotter, aged thirteen.
UH.
A jury in Riverside found Crumbell guilty of the order of James Trotter and sentenced him to death, but on they didn't get to put him to death. On May the twenty seventh, twenty twelve, he hanged himself in his cell using an extension chord.
Incredible. Let's use this as an opportunity to stop just for a second for some commercial sponsors. Hi, We're back with Susan Hall. The Encyclopedia World Encyclopedia of serial Killers. We were last talking about the incredible case of Crumwell and his reign of terror.
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Let's talk about another serial killer that you have feet in this book, actually a duo that's quite familiar with most people. Lawrence Sigmund Bittaker and Roy Lewis Roy Lewis Norris. And these are California serial killers their reign of terror in nineteen seventy nine. And you write a little bit about their background. Of Lawrence Bittaker's background, I guess people have been fascinated by the sheer depravity of these people,
Bittaker especially, but his background is very very interesting. Tell us a little bit about his background, his IQ and what happened despite that that IQ and that promising future.
He was adopted shortly after his birth. It doesn't say who his parents were, but he was adopted by mister and missus George Bittaker.
Uh.
Mister Bittaker was into aircraft construction, and they moved quite a lot Pennsylvania, Florida, Ohio, and finally in California.
UH.
They found that UH, Lawrence had an above average IQ of a hundred and thirty eight, but he dropped out of school when he was seventeen, he'd been arrested several times. Shortly after f quitting school, been arrested for car theft, leaving the seat in an accent, and resisting arrest. He
was sentenced to the California Youth Authority until he was nineteen. UH. A few days after he was released, he was arrested again, this time by the fdu FBI for violating the Interstate Motor Vehicle Theft Act and was sentenced to eighteen months, which he served at an Oklahoma prison.
UH.
Due hid to his abnormal behavior, he was transferred to excuse me, my tongues tied, Missouri medical facility, but he was released there after only six months.
Now where do you meet? Where does he meet Roy Norris?
Let's see at the California Men's Colony. It's a prison in San Luis Obispo, California.
Right, and he's released in nineteen seventy eight and goes to Los Angeles. Yes, so tell us more about this partnership.
Okay, I have a little bit of background on Roy Norris. Yes, he lived in Greeley, Colorado, until he was seventeen, and he dropped out of school and joined the Navy. He was stationed actually in San Diego, and in nineteen sixty nine he spent four months in Vietnam but never saw combat, got into drugs where there was a lot of in Vietnam. Marijuana was what he really liked, was readily available. He was arrested in November nineteen sixty nine for rape and was sent back to San Diego.
You say that he he was sent to ask a Tascadero State Hospital as a sex offender, and he spent five years there, but he was released no longer a danger, he was determined and three months later though he raped a woman, a twenty seven year old. He was convicted of forcible rape and sent to the California Men's Colony, where he met Lawrence Barrent's Vittaker. Yeah, and uh, he was released. Bittaker was released in seventy one and lived with his mother in Los Angeles. And Bittaker contacted Norris
and what was the plan that they concocted? What was? What was? What did they want to do?
And well, okay, they came up with a plan to rape and kill girls in Los Angeles and the recount and the surrounding areas.
Uh.
Bittaker bought a car cargo van with no windows in it, but it did have a large sliding side door. They called it the murder mac m ac k mack, and they spent time driving the highways to beaches and taking photos of the girls in their bikinis. They put their murder plan into action on June the twenty five worth of seventy nine, when they had kidnapped Cindy Schaeffer, a
sixteen year old, near Redondo Beach. They forced Cindy into the van, Duc taped her mouth, bound her feet and legs, and Bittaker drove them to a fire road in the San Gabriel Mountains, and when they got out of sight, they both raped Cindy, and then Bittaker wrapped a wire hanger around her neck and tightened it with vice grip pliers, strangling her to death. And they left her body in a plastic shower curtain in a nearby canyon.
Yeah, two weeks later, you write, they continued, Who did they pick up and what'd they do?
Okay, they picked up Andrea Hall, an eighteen year old hitchhiker, and Norris was hiding in the back of the van, but she didn't know that he was there. And Bittaker talked her into getting in and offered her a drink from the cooler in the back, and as she started to get up, of course, Noris grabbed her, taped her mouth shut, and bound her arms and legs, and they raped her several times, each of them.
We talk about something particularly cruel with an ice pick. What did he do?
He stabbed her in both ears with the ice pick, and then he strangled her and threw her body over a cliff. He took polaroid photos of her before he killed her, though incredible.
Then there was Jackie Gilliam fifteen years old and Leah Lamp thirteen years old. What happens when they get them in the van? Okay, Uh, there's a there's a brief moment. Yeah, there's a brief moment when uh, there's a realization and then what happens.
The uh Bittaker drove to a suburban tennis court and parked, and the girls became suspicious, and Leah tried to get out the back door, but Norris hit her over the head with a bat. After a short scuffle, the girls were bound and gagged. They were then taken to a fire road and kept alive for two days while Bittaker and Norris raped them and tortured them repeatedly with a wire hanger and vicecript pliers. They even made an audio
recording of the rapes. In the torture, Vittaker finally stabbed Gilliam in both ears with the ice pick, but she didn't die.
Wow.
Both men took turns strangling her until she died. They then turned to Leah. Bittaker strangled her while Norris hid her in the head with a sledgehammer several times and dropped the bodies over a cliff.
Wow you Right about September thirtieth, Shirley Sanders tell us about her abduction and what happens to her.
Well, they got her by macing her in the face and forced her into the van. She was raped by both of them, but she escaped. They put up a photo lineup for her and she identified both Bittaker and Norris, but they didn't catch them right away because on October thirty first, they both kidnapped girl, a sixteen year old girl named Vannette Ledford, but instead of heading for the fire road, they took turns driving while the other one
raped and tortured her and tape recorded her screams. Bittaker eventually strangled her with the wired wire hangar and the fliers, and they left her body on a lawn in Hermosa Beach.
You says quite a stir. You say it caused quite a stir because only a few days after the arrest of who you write.
In the book The Hillside Stranglers, Angela Boona and Kenneth Bianki.
Yeah, incredible, Yeah, you write that Norris and Bittaker were charged with murder, kidnap, rape, sex perversion, and crime criminal conspiracy. What was the outcome at trial? What was the sentence for Lawrence Bittaker?
Okay, Bittaker was convicted of rape, torture, kidnapping, and murder and he was sentenced to death. He was on death row at San Quentin Prison when he died of natural causes on December the thirteenth, twenty nineteen. Norris had testified against Bittaker and was spared a death sentence, but he was senced forty five years to life, with a minimum
of thirty years before he was eligible for parole. He was denied parole in twenty nine and he died in prison on February the twenty fourth, twenty twenty.
Yeah, just recently. Incredible. Now there are a lot of Anderson's in this book. The serial killers I noted were five serial killers Curtis Dean Anderson, Alan Leroy Anderson, Dale R. Anderson, Joshua Julius Anderson, and Robert Leroy. And can we talk about Dale Anderson for a moment. He was born in Ohio in nineteen fifty one, and he's an ex police jailer, so always I guess it's a guard at a jail. And it's interesting because the famed FBI serial killer expert
Robert Wrestler weighs in on this. It was asked to comment on this or did comment on this officially or unofficially, And this is Saint Claire County, Illinois. Five women tell us a little bit about this, Dale R. Anderson.
Okay, I'm having to refresh my memory just a little bit. I can't keep all of it in my head.
There was a Audrey Cardinas, an intern was found on the campus of Belleville Township High School in June eighty eight. And there was another Elizabeth West, who disappeared on her way home after appearing in a high school play. At Belleville Township High School as well, and he found that. You say that another victim was ruth Ann Janey, whose body was found in seventy nine near a creek five miles south of where west body was found and had
disappeared a year earlier. And then an unidentified woman between the ages of eighteen to twenty three who was strangled and hidden in a cornfield in September eighty six. And another woman named Christina Publish whose body was found in a weak covered ditch in July eighty seven just south of Bellevue. Now what happens is that a person named Rodney woyd Key, you are right, a mentally ill transient. What happens with the murder of Audrey Cardinas And as Rodney.
Boydike was convicted of Audrey's murder and sentenced to forty five years even though there was no evidence to time to the murder. Wrestler and other official officials believe that Boydke is not guilty.
So do I.
Oh, not that my opinion counts.
But now another person, I'm sorry, go ahead.
I was just going to say. Gregory Bowman was convicted of the murders of Elizabeth Weston ruthn Jane and was sentenced to life. He had confessed to the murders after Sergeant Robert Miller tricked him into confessing. The deputy said that they had a jail house snitch uh tell Boyman Bowman that he would help him escape if he confessed to the murders. So he confessed, even though there was no physical evidence to connect him to the murders.
Right.
The prosecuting attorney said he was unaware of the trickery by the deputies and if he had known that the case would never have gone to trial.
Yeah, you say, authorities believe that all of the murders were committed by the same person, and neither woyde Key nor Bowman were organized enough to have done the murders. And remarkably, Dale Anderson agreed with the authorities that all of the murders were done by the same person.
Yeah, but he said he was not the killer.
Yeah. So what does Anderson offer law enforcement?
At one point, Okay, he says he can unlock the mystery of a woman who was murdered thirteen years before, and stated that he had had her driver's license, but he refuses to reveal where it's hidden and will not give authorities the woman's name or address. He says he knows a lot about the murder because he was he investigated them as a police officer. But as we know, he was never a real police officer. He was a jail police officer. He guarded the jail. He's never been a police officer.
You're right that. Nineteen eighty nine, he continues his life of crime. He's wearing a ball cap and he's posing as a home buyer from Springfield. And then there's a house near Belville listed for sale by a realtor. What happens when the woman shows Anderson around the.
House, Well, he stopped in unannounced, and he insisted on seeing the house, and he insisted on seeing the carol space. So the woman opened the door and leaned in as Anderson stood over here, and almost immediately a friend of the woman's walked into the kitchen, and Anderson turned and ran out the front door.
And so what does the woman or the police do as a result of this? What happens next?
Well, a week later, wearing a ball cap and carrying a bag, he stopped at another house listed for sale, but the woman wouldn't let.
Him in.
Hours later, and still wearing the ball cap and carrying the bag. Prosecutors believed he again posed as a home buyer at the home of Jolaine and John Landman. John wasn't home, but Jolaine allowed Anderson to come in and showed him the house. While in the bedroom, Landman's three year old son pulled something out of the bag and struck Jolaine in the head while in the bedroom. No did son, didn't do it. Anderson did it. I'm sorry.
He pulled something out of the bag in the bedroom of the three year old and struck Jolaine in the head. Her husband arrived some time later, and he found his wife and son underneath the bed, with a rope tied around her neck and a pair of scissor stuck in her throat. The back of his wife's and son's heads has been crushed. The police tried to get in touch with Anderson, but no one would answer his telephone.
They feared for the lives of his family, you write, and so finally, after two days, the police forced their way into his home and they took his children out in their pajamas. Yes, after talking with police for several minutes, Anderson came out. What happened in the search of the house. What did police find?
Okay? Well, Anderson came out cowering behind his wife, using her as a shield. They found many weapons and hundreds of newspaper articles and other documents about the Cardenas murder. Anderson was charged with murdering the landman's He was convicted on two counts of first degree murder of both Joe Laine and the three year old son and went sentenced to life in prison without parole. He's currently at the Minard Correctional Center at Chester, Illinois.
Yeah, it is interesting all the Andersons. Again, you don't have any other names, regardless of whether they're common names, but I guess when you're dealing with Anderson's a little more common name than some of the serial killers. But how interesting is it that there are five serial killers named Anderson in your line.
When we get into the other volumes, there are others Jackson's and Johnson's. Seems like there was another one. I can't think what it was. One thing that is kind of weird how many people are named John, Wayne or Wayne. There are there are I think at least four named John Wayne something, John Wayne Gacy, John Wayne Glover. In fact, John Wayne Glovery I think is in this book. M hm, well he's in the second second book.
I'm sorry, yes, nother, Yes, you are thinking of that? Tell us about speaking of speaking ahead? When is the next edition? The next? Volume two is again? Can you mention again the letters and what it includes from yes? And Oh?
I'm sorry, I didn't mean dinner up.
No, No, I just wanted to know details of the release.
Yeah, okay. Volume two is E through L and it is to be released on August twenty fourth.
Okay, great, Now, in this encyclopedia, you cover bluebirds, blue beards, pardon me and bluebirds, blue beards? You angels of death, you talk. There's many headings of beasts. And what I found interesting too, is because many I think a compilations shy away from it. Many instances of Satanic influence and Satanic groups. Some with the that you had were seven or eight accomplices that were eventually convicted in a group that considered themselves satanic.
Right, there were a few groups that did. I don't know how you get your friends and relatives to kill I just don't understand it at all. I don't know if it's mob mentality or what.
The what are the you have? We said you have five hundred serial killers listed in here, Yes, the vast majority you talked about. You said that serial killing has gone is a fairly new term. However, serial killing is as old as time itself. You have five hundred kill Where was primarily the most serial killers? Where did they exist? Where did they live? And kill?
In good O, USA? We have many times more than any other country. England is second in number of serial killers and they're less than one hundred seventy nine six in my head, but it's less than one hundred. Germany is right up there, Italy is right up there. And of all places South Africa they have more than their share of serial killers right.
Well, that can be explained too. We had a guest on and talk about you know, after apartheid was ended, there was a rash of serial killers and serial murder. Oh yes, especially especially what was the what was the most disturbing serial killer case that you covered in this first edition? A to d oh wow? Why you don't have to stick it to one? I mean if there a couple of.
Well, Bittaker and Norris were very disturbing. Yeah, the ones that bother me are the most I do believe are the serial killers who molest and killed children.
Mm hmm.
I can't imagine anybody doing that.
Well, I don't have to imagine if it happens.
So oh, I know it does, I know it does.
Yeah. You talk about two of the Bega school girl murders, for example, Lindsay Juannie Beckett and Leslie Alfred Camillary. Becketts from New Zealand and then they moved to Australia near Canberra, and there Beckett met Leslie Camillary and they began to steal cars. And Camialary is interesting write that he had a juvenile record and detention of one hundred and forty six offenses, so before we started doing anything, he had
a life of crime already set out for him. And in September ninety seven you write about an abduction in Canberra and held captive by these two men, raped repeatedly. They were in their twenties, and this person again many stories in this serial killer book. Incredibly we get the information because a victim remarkably, almost unbelievably escapes and is able to help identify them.
And we had time, if we had time, I have a quick story about a stupid serial killer. He was killing prostitutes. He took this prostitute out to a vacant area, got stuck in the mud. He had put the prostitute in the trunk of his car. He opened the trunk, put her behind the field, and he said, I'm going to push you out. Well he did, and of course she put it in gear and took off. Went to the police and they went back and arrested him.
Was it just one kill? What one?
Or was a serial killer? He was the Acre's Home It's in that first book Acres Home Killer.
Right. How many murders and what were the some of the characteristics of that killer.
I was trying to get it to it real quick. He murdered six women between the years two thousand in two thousand and eight, so without prostage and took him out to rural areas and raped them and then murdered them.
So if it weren't for this stupid mistake, he could have certainly continued.
Oh he would have, yeah, I'm sure. But he was convicted and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.
Another thing I noticed in this serial killer compilation that I thought was odd is how many duos, how many male duos were involved in the most I think the most heinous of serial murders, if not that. Yes, all of them are in competition with each other, but it seemed that together they went to further lengths. Or it's incredible the depravity by the duos in this book. What do you think of that?
Yes, well, like I said earlier, how do you talk a friend at the murdering somebody with you? I don't understand that mentality.
At the same time, these people are meeting in prison, and they weren't meeting in prison because they didn't have violent criminal records to be right, right, So it's not
just like you and I asking a friend. I would think there are certainly cases where, again foolishly, people go to people that are they think they can trust, that they are their friends, but unfortunately their friends cannot fathom what their friends are now saying to them what they thought were their friends saying to them, inviting them to do murders. Some of these killers, the people that they spoke to, don't you know, don't really recognize at the
time the seriousness of the statements. But later when they're arrested later when police talk to them later, they realize what these people were trying to talk them into, and they go to police, of course, because this killer totally misunderstood the relationship with their friend and told them something that they certainly ended up regretting before I let you go. And it's been fascinating talking to you about the World
Encyclopedia of serial Killers. What else do you think as a result of this project moving ahead for the other volumes, what do you think will be one of the central themes other than the serial killing? Obviously, but what seems to be a common pattern among these killers in this first edition?
Oh jeez, that's a hard one. We you know, they talk about serial killers having horrible childhoods. Not all of them did. Some of them had privileged childhood, but yet they became a serial killer. Jeffrey Dahmer had a good life. Yeah, look what he did.
Yeah, don't know.
How you know, you go from normal to being so depraved.
Well, as you write though, too, that a famous FBI profile, I believe John Douglas said the serial killer is more made than born, And you include that. I thought it was a very interesting statement.
Yes, I did too. I read that years ago and I thought that was very appropriate. But like I said, there are these people who had abnormal childhood, some of them are privileged childhood and they became serial killers. Yes, so they weren't made serial killers, not from their childhood.
No.
I want to thank you very much Susan Hall for coming on and talking about the World Encyclopedia of serial Killers. I know this is a this is volume one A to D and this is a Wild Blue Press publication. So for people that might want to take a look at this, is there an Amazon page Wild Blue Press. Where can they go to take a look.
And Amazon It is available on Amazon, or they can go to Wild Bluepress dot com.
Both places great, and your second edition eed L is out mid August. We certainly will want to have you back and to discuss that at length. Thank you very much, Susan Hall, the World Encyclopedia of Serial Killers, Volume one A to D. Thank you so much. You have a great evening, Susan Hall.
Thank you. Thanks Dan for asking. I enjoyed it.
Thank you. Good night,