THE TRAIL OF TED BUNDY-Kevin Sullivan

are being published here for the first time. To the former detectives who work with author Kevin Sullivan during the writing of his widely acclaimed book The Bundy Murders, returned to aid readers in fully understanding Bundy's murderous career, its ripple effect impact on those who came into contact with him in one way or another, and dispelling commonly held myths. The Trail of Ted Bundy is a journey back in time to when Ted Bundy was killing young women and

girls in the Pacific Northwest and beyond. It's told by those who knew him, and you hear the revealing stories, many being voiced and put to print for the very first time. The friends of the victim are here as well, and they too share their insights about the victims, and some of what they tell here had been held back from the investigators, such was their commitment to their deceased friends.

It's also the story of those who hunted Bundy, those who guarded him, and those who otherwise were a part of this strange case one way or another. The book that we're featuring this evening is the Trail of Ted Bundy. Digging up the untold stories with my special guest, journalist and author Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Kevin Sullivan, Well,

thank you Dan for having me back. And I knew you were going to have me back on after I completed. It's good to see that it's gone to print and I'm ready to talk about it. What It's always a great pleasure talking to you and always exciting for the audience to hear anything new about the very fascinating Ted Bundy and also the very fascinating Kevin Sullivan. So let's talk about will you just talk about it in your intro?

So just tell us why after doing what an exhaustive and the most comprehensive, I guess story about Ted Bundy, the most complete story to date about Ted Bundy with the Bundy Murders. And I know you talk about how someone a co author had asked about a possibility of writing about something just a couple of years ago, and you said no, So why why now? And why?

from being in that world, as it were. And once I was free of it and it went into publication, I slowly kind of like return to myself and I was able to go into other things, And of course the case stays with me okay, there's none of day goes by. I don't think about the victims, about Bundy and everything that happened. And that happens with a lot of books that I write, and it happens with a lot of writers. But I could bang out the occasional article. I could go on a radio program like I'm doing

here tonight, and that was okay. But I swore that I would never write any other books about Buddy or go back into what I call that dark world. It's true. A couple of years ago, another author asked me to go author a book on possible murders he may have been involved with. But at the time, the very thought of doing that just really turned me off, and I said to himself, I just can't do this, so you know, I mean, I thought it over for a while, but I told the person no, I was going to pass

on it. I just didn't want to do it. And that's the way it remained for the last couple of years. But last spring, I was on the phone with somebody and I can't say who the person is, but they're closely connected to the Bundy case and they've been having some significant medical problems and I got to thinking about that and the voices that are still out there that maybe haven't contributed as much to the Bundy saga as it were, And I thought to myself, you know, it's

been forty one years since all of this happened. If I ever want to record any more voices about this very infamous case, I need to do it now. And I think that was the impetus was, of course, speaking to this person, and so with that I started down the journey. And it was exactly like with the Bundy murders, because I didn't have to rewrite a biography of Ted Bundy or follow him closely on this trail of murder.

But it was going to be seeking out those who knew him, those who knew the victims, consulting the case files again, talking to some of the investigators again, and just for posterity, because as a historian, it's very important to me to gather these voices together and get them in print, because one day all these voices will be silent and then that's it. You can't gain anything from them.

was able to find them. And the greatest thing about it is is that most of the people that I talked to talk with me and opened up with me, and some were opening up for the very first time. So it was I never expected to write another book about Bunny. But as soon as I decided to do this book and record voices that had never been recorded before and get their stories into print, it had a great feel to it, and I knew I was on

the right path. And then when I started discovering all these people and they started talking to me, I thought, yep, this was the right, right decision, and so that was really the genesis of this book.

the Seattle area with the murders. So as you talk about in the first chapter, let's talk about that.

His m was one of he was a not just a careful planner of murder, but sometimes he would seize an opportunity if he saw it, and it was there. Many of his murders occurred because he went hunting for victims. Sometimes they occurred because they just happened. For example, if he saw a girl hitchhiking. Bundy had a standard way of killing his victims, and there were a number of women that he would whack in the head with a crowbar once, two, three times. He wanted her unconscious, but

he didn't want her dead. And when he wanted a woman unconscious, he wanted to be able to do sexually what he wanted to do with her and then strangle her while he's having sex with her. And he would kill her in that manner during those murders. And there were a number of them just like that. He wasn't concerned about her interacting with him, okay, and so that's what he wanted. There were sometimes, as with the women

at Lake some Amish, Janis Ott and Denise Naslin. Naslin was gotten in the afternoon, but in the morning he had gotten from Lake Samamish, you know janis Ott. He had kept her somewhere, sexually attacked her, kept her tied up, kept her alive all afternoon, and then he went back to the lake at before four pm. And he was able I think by about four twenty to convince Denise Naslin to go with him. He had some ruse, He

just made up some excuse and trickter. She got in his car and left and she was taken to where Janis was. The two women saw each other terrified, just terror beyond description, and of course he sexually assaults you know, Mathlin, and then we don't know which one, but he kills one in front of the other. And of course even before anybody was dead, that that that it was, the place was filled with horror. These women knew that they

weren't going to get out of this, I'm sure. But once he had killed one in front of the other, he enjoyed the fact he drank it in and was like fuel to him. That the other person saw it. He meant her to see it, and her terror must have been just unimaginable, and he enjoyed that. But there were times he wanted to kill a woman. He didn't want her to feel terror. And there were sometimes he wanted to kill his victims. He wanted them to know

everything going on, so the the them. But the AMO basically stayed about the same, and that would be choking, choking a woman to death while he's having intercourse with her from behind, either anal or vaginal and so that the muscles, you know, as they're as they're expiring, they're tightening up their muscles, which would include her vagina. And you know, that's the kind of person that we're dealing with, Okay.

So he liked that, and then of course he loved neclophilia, so if he had time, he would stay with them and have additional sex acts. Sometimes, as with the hitchhiker that he picked up on his way to law school in Idaho, he probably had you know, sex with her after he knocked her out a time or two, strangled her to death, and then maybe had you know, additional sex with her. But he slid her body into the

river and that was it. But sometimes at Bundy planted the body, he could either go back and visit the body, or in the case of Washington State, even back in Washington State, he admitted he told Bill Hagmeyer he had as many as four heads in his apartment at the Rogers rooming House on Twelfth Avenue in Seattle, I think

twelfth Northeast. I can't remember the exact address, but at one time, and of course, you know, people need to understand this isn't because he just wanted to view these heads, okay, and put lipstick on him. He was obviously using these heads for all sex. This is the deminuted diabolic individual

that we're talking about. But even within his m O it could vary a little bit, and it wasn't until the MO really changed with the killing of Lent Culver in Pocatello, Idaho in May of seventy five, where he changed it a little bit. So you could say that Bundy's m O stayed almost almost the same. There would

be some differences in it. But for example, when just to throw this oub since we're talking about m O, when he and for ever, if everybody, the people listening now followed the Bundy case at all, they know who Carol Lurranch is. Carol deuranch was kidnapped from the Fashion Small and Bundy took her to about a block and a half away out of a place called the McMillan School, and she had to fight him to get away from him.

She's the only person that ever got away. She said she saw he had a crowbar, he could feel it she was fighting, But she also said he had a pistol that night. Now, the prosecutors, the prosecuting attorneys out there, they told me they really don't think that Bundy had one,

but there is that possibility he had a pistol. So if he did have a pistol on that night, if he did, that would be a little I think that would be a significant change in his MO because accept picking up a twenty two rifle when he was on the run at that cabin in Colorado after his first escape. Except having a gun at that time, there is no mention of a firearm anywhere. Bundy doesn't mention it. But like I say, if he did have a pistol in Utah, at least on that night, that would have changed that

m O just a little bit. Anyway. That gives you an idea.

he was working with publican party. He was you know, he was rubbing shoulders with some of the political elites there. He was dating Liz Kendall, she has a daughter. He was preparing for law school, and so you know, he was conducting himself in a normal professional fashion, and that

was the mass. Now, the interesting thing is there may have been a time in Bundy's life, despite these things on the inside of him what I call in the Bundy murders, these dark emissaries like circling, you know, just like a cloud over ing or something, he might have thought that maybe I can pull this off. Maybe I can be a lawyer, maybe I can be the governor of Washington. Maybe I can do this despite all these things going on of what I really want to do.

And so there might have been a back and forth within Ted Bundy, but by January of seventy four he had already internally waved goodbye to that. And when he attacked that one woman that he didn't kill, which some people identify as Johnny Lentz, where he attacked her in the U district about you know, two or three weeks. I don't have the exact date before he attacked Linda and Healy, but he didn't kill her. He thought he

was going to, but he didn't do it. But he launched himself then now from that moment on, but he still went about his business. He would, you know, he would go to law school for that year at the University of a Puget Sound. He would, you know, still do some political stuff. But as the murders increased that year, I noticed in the record that his attendance at these political rallies started to fall off. And like there was a caucus being held in law I think in June.

I'd have to go back and check my book to Bunny Murse, but I think this caucus was in Laurelhurst, Washington in June of seventy four, and he missed it. And it's said in the record, and I put this in the book, the second delegate, a lady named Helen West, had to take his place. So by then, not only was he missing things I don't even think, he was contacting people and saying, look, I just can't do this anymore. So he was emotionally cutting his ties with everything that

was normal in his life. That's why in nineteen seventy four, even if he killed before then, that's why nineteen seventy four is so significant, is because he launched himself into this world of murder and he was not going to stop for any reason until he was captured or killed. So that's basically Asmo. He was leading a normal life apparently, but the life that could not be seen by his friends and his coworkers was that of a diabolical murderer.

And the only people who ever saw that were the women who were captured by him.

certain patterns emerge. And when those patterns emerge in Washington State, and they culminated at Lake Samamish. Up until Lake Samamish, which is July fourteenth, nineteen seventy four. Up until that time, they had a number of missing women, women that vanished under very strange circumstances. Nobody wanted to come out and say the girls have been murdered and they're dead. Cops, of course suspected this. People suspected it, but they didn't

want to believe it. But once Lake Salamish occurred, where a guy named Ted driving the Volkswagen had lured two girls away and they and they're just they're gone, there was a whole different ball game, and every and the manhunt got very very extensive out there, And so true, he wanted to go to law school, but what he really wanted was a new killing ground. And I believe the reason why he chose Utah is because his girlfriend

lives Kendall. And I use her last name. It's actually Clofer or something like that, but that's the name she chose for her book, The Phantom Print. So I mean, I also honor that I call her Liz Kendall. She's from Utah, and so you know she would go home to see her folks. He would go with her. He got to know that area fairly well, so for him, moving to Utah wasn't like just moving somewhere that he didn't have any knowledge of. But here's the thing about Utah.

And even though he didn't have normal body dumps like he did in the state, he would put these women in various places and he would dump them, and he kicked it up a notch in Utah because in Utah he was bringing some of his big stoms. And this takes this takes this takes Cojones, but as does a lot of things he did. But he took the victim's apartment on the second floor at five sixty five First Avenue and kept them in there for a number of days.

Probably they were in a conoteaut state, but nevertheless they were still breathing. And then he had to kill them and slipped them out. But but when he got to Utah there was no man hunt. But if you'll notice, after a bunch of girls started, you know, disappearing, and then some are found murdered in Utah, like you know, uh, you know, Melissa Smith and Lauren and Amy. Here's what Bundy does. Well, I've made this place hot, just like Washington State. I've got to go somewhere else. So what

does he do? Come January seventy five, he heads to Colorado and he starts hunting at the ski resorts. So yet again he's going to an area that is a neighboring state but thus far hadn't had any missing or murdered women. And then they start dying over there. So that was his mo. So it sounds like when he finally made it to Florida and he turned Tallahassee upside down by killing two at Kyle Omega and attacking Cheryl Thomas at or Done with the apartment, what's he do?

He gets in the stolen vent and he goes to Jacksonville to get away from Tallahassee. So Bundy was always getting away from what he had created to go somewhere else to find victims. He never found anybody in Jacksonville. He almost said he didn't came back. And his last murder was committed in Lake City, twelve year old Kim Leech. But that's why he did it. So he was a very mobile killer, and of necessity that he loved to

drive anyway. He loved the troll, but of necessity he had to change locations because of how hot these manhunts got. And he's you know, respective states.

describe him as creepy and greasy. So let's just talk about a little bit by the time he gets to Colorado, how things have changed. Things are we're always a little bit similar with him. But what has changed by the time he gets to Colorado.

Now that was a mistake because he should have but you know, had something warm on so he could blend in. That said, he hadn't descended at that point. He was still he was still very you know, able to get women to leave with him. And what happened was and of course I've been there and I know how it works. And when you're walking those outside walkways, you could see

everything around you. But something that Bundy noticed and he took advantage of, was that in the you know, i want to say, close to zero weather, the heated pool on the outside, people would swim even in January, and that pool would have so much steam wafting up from the surface of the pool that very often you couldn't see. And of course it's also like in the evening, you

couldn't see who's walking along. Sometimes on the second floor outside walkway, you couldn't even see sometimes people passing on the little walkways around the pool because there's that much steam. Bundy would not have missed that. But so he's true. He was. He wasn't dressed in warm clothing, but he was still. But I would call a meticulous planner of murder. Even then, where you see the real meltdown is in Florida,

but Colorad he was still the kind of person. And see the difference is is that in Florida that charm had left him. In fact, in Florida, women got a creepy feeling around him. I mean like he was giving off these vibes and nobody wanted to be around him. And I say in my book The Bundy Murders that when he couldn't and this was unthinkable back in Washington State, even Utah, he could go up to women in and well, he's attractive. Young guys articulate, yeah, let's talk and go

ahead and get a berry out. See that's the way it was not in Florida. He walks up to people to disco right across from Kyle Omegan, Florida, and this guy's creeping them out. There was women who told detectives later we were hoping he wouldn't come up to us. He had this weird look in his eyes. So that kind of killer, the suave killer, the killer that is

really really on target, was gone from him. That's why I'm saying the book The Bundy Murders, he left, he couldn't get the conscious women to leave with him, so he attacked the unconscious women at Kyomega, those ladies that were asleep. So that's where you see the real meltdown and go into great detail about all the things that that that were evident of the meltdown as Bundy was on his trail of murder in Florida. But it's interesting that Colorado thing. And you know, if you've been there,

you have to be there. There's a lot of ski resorts, and how he ended up at this particular resort at that particular place, it's just it's all a matter of chance. And because the place got it's got stuff all over there. So yeah, just interesting. And you know I say this in The Bundy Murders it's this woman that that he that he led away willingly to a parking lot. This has had to have happened, and he must have way later at the parking lot or you know. Her name

was Karen Campbell. She was nurse from Michigan. She was there with her boyfriend, doctor Raymond Gadowski, and his two kids. And then there was another doctor, a friend of her, that was there. The kids wanted to She had to go up to her room to get a magazine so she could switch the magazine with this other doctor that was with them. The kids wanted to go with her. Now, just think of this, just to think of what is

eninging on life and death. Had she said no, stay with your father, had the kids gone with her, Bundy would have had no choice but to leave her alone. She'd have gone to a room, gotten a magazine, gone back down the elevator with the kids, gone downstairs, and she and Raymond Gadowski would probably be married today watching TV right now as we talk. She a girl was by herself. Karen was by herself. That's why I say in my book sometimes it's just a matter of chance,

just chance that these things happened. And so whatever Bundy did he convinced her. We don't know the rules. We don't know whether he I don't He probably wasn't hobbling. He probably used some other excuse. He might not have pulled the policeman thing on her. I don't know. We don't know. But he used some ruse and got her to walk to one of the parking lots, and probably the one that even we used, right next door, off to the right, because that's the closest area to it.

And then that was it. And Mike Fisher, when he was doing his investigation, he came to the conclusion, without knowing who did this and what his mo was, that whoever got Karen Campbell had her. You know, he had gotten caring willingly to go with him at least to the parking lot and so, and he was right about that. So anyway, but he was still an on target killer in Colorado, but he sure stood out to Elizabeth Harder. And the sad thing about this is that Harder didn't

even tell Fisher the first time. A year later, when he came back to interview a doctor again, he said, well, you need to go talk to him. This as Harder, who was also there, and harder Knewton knew this doctor because she said she saw this strange man. And when Fisher got there and talked to him her and then you know, he showed us some show us some pictures to her, she identified him. So, you know, interesting, and Fisher could have had that information a year earlier, but

she along to it. I don't know why.

into people all the time that we think are clueless. Now, when that happens, when you run into clueless people who are watching lethal killers. That can be a problem. So when Ted Bundy was delivered by Michael Fisher and three of his guys to the jail and the Aspen courthouse, you know at that time, he warned them, He warned them what a this man was. Now the Aspen Courthouse, the jail, in the courthouse, I mean, they dealt with drunks,

bad check writers, people that got into various problems. They didn't usually have somebody like Bundy. But he made it abundantly clear that this man is not just going to stand trial for the abduction and murder of Karen Campbell, but he is suspected of killing women in Utah and Washington State. You can't turn your back on him. Well, turned on the charm. Ted did what he always does,

turned on the charm, got really friendly with everybody. Everybody kind of liked him, you know, and up in the courthouse he used to go and do research in the law library because having some law school under his belt, he worked you know with the attorneys that helped him and he had use of the library at the time, and they used to keep in the springtime the top window open so you could get a breeze. Okay, Now,

if you stand in front of the courthouse. I mentioned this in the book, it looks, it looks, it looks like it would be something to jump out of it when you're standing on the ground floor. Because he jumped out. If you ever see a picture of it, it's the it's the top left window, the second floor window. If you go up into that room and now it's a court, it's not the library. It is a it's a court, but they still have a lot of the library books on the wall. And you can look out that window

and boy that it's a daunting drop. It really is. It's it's something. I mean, you look at it from up there. I'm surprised he didn't break his leg. He did injure the leg like he injured his knee a little bit. But and by the time he was recaptured about six days later, it was very swollen. But it's it's a very high drop. Well anyway, so he gets

out this window, he sprints, you know, away. They don't know he's gone yet, comes in there and says, hey, there's a guy just just just jumped out of your window. And they think, oh my god, I'm trobe it's not Bundy, but Bundy gets you know. He goes down by the

I think it's a Red gorge or something. I can't remember, the Red River gorg it's something, uh, and it's and then he takes off and he gets into the uh wilds of Colorado and he's got to make it a he's trying to make it the crest of ute and he's uh trying to go over the mountain, and he spends a lot of time going in circles. He ends up getting the cabin and he ends up. He doesn't even know what he's doing, but he's losing a lot of weight. He's becoming delirious. He's just what the jailers

couldn't do. The wilds of Colorado was doing, and it was corralling him. He finally comes back. He thinks he's somewhere else. He steals a car. He's a bad driver. Any way, he's weaving this car. Please see him.

a fairly good size. It needed to be welded, but the sheriff and the people in charge determined that there's no way he could get up through there. But just check this out again, Michael Fisher warns them. Jerry Thompson warns them. Everybody's warning them. If this gets the guy gets out, he's going to kill again. You can mark it. Doubt women will die. So what they do They didn't weld it. Now, just check this out. This almost sounds

like fiction. The inmates in the jail, we're telling the authorities. We hear ted Bundy moving up above us at night. He's trying to figure out a way to escape. We hear him moving all about above us. And then he goes back to his cell and they don't do anything about it. He gets out the second time. He slips down into a jailer's apartment, changes clothes. He's got like seven hundred bucks on him from people who in Washington State, and perhaps he's all most of it came from Washington

State who believed that he was innocent. He had this cash on him, and that's seven hundred dollars. I mean in today's money, that's probably twenty five hundred dollars. And so he used that money to escape. He sold a car, but that broke down. He hitched a ride with a soldier to Denver, called a flight to Chicago, took a train to ann Arbor, and then and from ann Arbor, stayed a few days. Wanted to go to the university setting. He loved to kill women at He was so comfortable

with the university setting. So he found trying to find a school on the ocean front school in Florida, and he couldn't. So he decided to take Florida State University. And and then he sold a car, came down through Louisville, stopped one morning, had breakfast on Jefferson Street at Uncle

Hank's Bancake Cottage. Drove on down to Atlanta, dumped the car, picked up a Trailways bus, took that to to Tallahassee and then uh got went on college Avenue and got a room as Chris Hagen, and he passed himself off as a like a graduate student because he was older then. And uh so that's how it happened. So these women that were the two women at Kyle Omega and Kem Leech, these people should be alive today. The only reason they're dead is because of the jailers in Colorado. There is

no other reason. They're only dead because they didn't do their job. So some people lost their jobs, but the women in Florida, these women lost their loss. Two women and a young girl. So there you have it. So that was stupidity par excellence, and it's just unbelievable. But two times he got away from Colorado.

January fifteenth, he has to outdo himself from the day he abducted two women at the same time he is his crimes have escalated and he's more desperate and the authorities are looking for him. So describe, as you do in the book, January fourteenth is unsuccessful hunting trip, and then the very horrifying January fifteenth, And especially want to talk about the Sheryl Thomics when Thomas, when he gets to the duplex and her friend, Debbie's Ciicarelli basically saves

her life. So let's go back to January fourteenth in Florida.

that date when uh he attacked all three people. Now on the fourteenth, I can't remember what what what are you drawing from exactly because I can't remember anything from that period of the fourteenth, So you'll have to repress my memory.

he's uh creeps in there. He finally he cases off the place earlier, made sure that the doors are unlocked, then goes in there and well, you know, attack four people, killing you two.

all over. Bunny was in there. That's one of the people that, uh, I mean, that's That's one place where a number of these girls later came to the detectives and said, look, there was this weird guy in here, and they described him to a t and of course, uh, you know, you know that was Bundy. Now when he left, there was one woman reported that I can't remember because this isn't in the new book, this is been Bundy murders. It might have been around midnight or or one am.

Maybe around midnight one of the girls came out from from the from this this charage and somebody called out to her, are you Kyo Kyomega. She said no, and he said, well, you're lucky that you know that was probably Bundy. That was probably him because he probably already determined that he was going to attack the women in Kyomega.

Now I don't think he had tried the door and found it open, I think, because I know he did that when he attacked Linda Anne Healy when he followed them home from Dante's in Washington State to her place, uh in the roomy house that she lived with a girl. He did try the door. It was unlocked. He came back later and attack them. But the sliding door which

had a lock at keypad lock on the outside. Sometimes they would shut it really well and the next girl coming in would have to use the keypad, and sometimes they would not shut it so well and you could slide it open. And what happened was one of these girls must have just left it kind of open and and he got in that way. What is interesting about Kyle Omega is that it was a frenzy. It was not the mo of what Bundy usually you know, had,

and he just it was so different. He went in there and he you know, he had gotten a log from from around the back and he went in there and I mean he was bashing these women in the head and he would have sex with someone, he would rape them. The one girl I guess I think it was Lisa Levy. He better in the bullocks, and so

it was just a frenzy of killing. And uh, you know, one would think after that is done and he's had his ejaculations maybe two three, who knows, and he's killed them and he's he's satiated that but he's not satiated, and he takes this is unbelievable. He keeps the bloodied log and a lot of that bark on that law had already been gone off the thing. He smashed them with such force that that had that bark had flown

all over the room. But he takes this log and he walks just a few blocks to Dunwoodie and there's a guy driving by. I can't remember his name, but I name him in the book. I think he's an Asian fellow. But uh, he sees this guy and what draws him to him. He looks like he's trying to conceal something, and he is. That's Bundy trying to conceal the log. But Bundy's wearing like a pea coat and like a cap on his head. And so that's what

they reported. You know, I should mention this that Bundy was leaving that horrific scene, he was seen by a girl who he didn't see. She was standing back out of the light. He came down the steps. He had this peak coat on his hat, he had the log in his hand and he went out the door. Okay, well, this guy saw him dressed that weight, holding something to his side, and he could tell he was trying to conceal it. So he took that same log to Dunwoodie. By the time he got the Dunwoodie, you know, he

can already hear the sirens going off. Okay, and they're heading to Kylemega and you'd think, whoa, I guess I better go home for the night. But no, he wasn't satiated. So he you know, there's this duplex and he gets into this. He comes through the window of Cheryl Thomas and and Debbie Cicarelli or whatever her name is next door, and she hears some noise over there and sounds like

to her like somebody's crying or whimpering or something. And then she hears some like banging stuff, so you know, she's pounding on the wall, she's calling out to her, she even calls her on the phone. Well, Bundy, of course, he had every intention of you know, having intercourse with her, raping her either anally or vaginally and then strangling her. But he couldn't do it because this girl next door

kept creating all these problems. So he masturbated and you know, and that was found on the bed, and he left the log at the scene, and he got himself together and went out the window. And from that moment on he went back to his apartment and you know, to college rooming house basically, and everybody up and you know, he comes back, and you know, he again, he's not the refined killer of nineteen seventy four, nineteen seventy five. People speak to him from the rooming house and you know,

he can barely respond. He's like in a daze, and so, you know. So so that was it now, And then of course after that, there's this intense man hunt in Tallahassee. You got you got two people dead, you got another two seriously injured and attacked in the middle of the

nine as they slept. So that's when he then goes to Lake City and Jacksonville couldn't get anybody there, and then comes back to Lake City and then kills Kim Leech, which happens to be his last murder anyway, But like I say, the new book I've written then I you know, I go into various things, but especially going like for instance, for the new book, I trat a guy named Gary Matthews, who interestingly enough made the run to Kyle Omega and dealt with I think he said he dealt with Karen Chamber.

I'd have to check the book and another one. And then after an hour he made the run to Cheryl Thomas is on Dunwoodie. And if it doesn't get and then it gets more surreal after Bundy's captured and then Bundy plays his own attorney in one of the upcoming trials. He calls on this guy who has to give a deposition because Bundy's acting like his own attorney. And the guy said, he just looked at Bunny and he thought why, you know, just thought to himself, why Kyle Omega, you know,

why Dunwoodie, you know. But anyway, so, yeah, but it was a horrific scene. It was Kyle Omega was turned upside down. When I was at Kyle Omega in two thousand and eight, you know, I didn't go inside, but I took pictures of the front of the back and they were doing extensive remodeling and they had a lot of doors propped up, a lot of woodworking tour out

and the doors looked the vintage nineteen seventies. So that might have been the first they had remodeled the outside over the years, but that might have been the first inner remodeling that they've done. But anyway, so yeah, but it's still there. It's still the you know, Kylemega already has.

take some great photos and you're included in there. You also talk about which is an exclusive too, is that you which was hard to get was when Bundy had his experiences with the Mormon faith in Utah and Salt Lake City and some of the friends that he got as he entered tried to enter into this seriously enter

into this LDS, the Church of Latter day Saints. So tell us about Larry Anderson and a couple of the other people that you met and what you discovered from those interviews with those people in Bundy's life.

It's a what I call an iconic photograph. Well, that woman was a woman named Carol Bartholomew, and I was able to track down Carol and she was kind enough to talk with me and open up to me, and she sent me an extensive email as to what her life was, how she knew ted, how that photograph came about, and I've got the whole story in there. And she

talks about John Homer and Larry Anderson. They were a part of that house that four guys lived in and one of them, the guy who took that photograph, was a fellow named Wynn Bartholomew and Carol ended up marrying when and they ended up having a number of children and the grandchildren, and he became a well respected attorney in Utah and he just passed away in twenty thirteen. But Carol was extremely nice, and I sent her a copy of my book The Bunny Murders, and so she

was very kind opened up to me. So then when she told me about Larry Anderson and John Homer, I thought, well, perhaps they might like to talk to me, and ultimately they did, and they're two very nice fellas and they carried a lot of information with them about this They're dealings with Ted and the stuff that they told me, I've never read about any other place, and I know

that they haven't talked much about it. I don't think any of this information has ever been in print of for And it's just very interesting because you get to see the other side of this. And one of the most interesting things is that Bundy had asked him to go skiing in Colorado in like January or early winter of nineteen seventy five, and they were set to go on a particular vight date in Jail. I don't know when I'm not sure if he knows when, but he did say we were going to Veil. Now, Veil is

where Bundy ended up getting Julie Cunningham. But whether Bundy went to Veil that time or not, we don't know. Because he pulled up to the curb to pick Larry up. Larry had all his ski equipment at the curb at his place, ready to go on this trip that Bundy asked him to go on. Bundy pulls up and says, do you mind if I go alone? He said, I need some alone time, which means I need to murder somebody.

But of course, let Larry doesn't know this, and I'm sure Larry was aghast because he's got all his ski equipment, he's ready to go, and he's not like he's calling from his apartment, Hey, I can't go. He pulls up as if he's going and says, I just want to go alone, and so he takes his you know, he does, and Bundy goes. So so so that's coincided, you know, with with with uh, you know, you know, one of

the murders. We just don't know which one. But I thought that was very enlightening, and so, you know, that that that need I kept thinking as I heard the story that need in Bundy, that that Churney need to kill must have been rising up. And he probably thought to himself, thought to himself, you know, I can go with Larry and Ski and I'm all, I'm not gonna be able to think about because I want to go

over and kill these women I can. So it's better to cancel with him, because I mean, if it probably would have been at any other time, Mondy may just have gone with him, but he wanted to kill. He felt like he needed to kill, and off he went by himself. And of course, you know, I'm sure it's surprised, you know, Larry. I'm sure he thought it was rude.

But Larry had a close relationship with him, and he introduced him to a lot of women in the church and he even said they double dated on occasion, so he got to know the man very well. So it was very good. Like I say, these stories are being recorded for the first time.

And then tell us how he told the truth in this third person sort of fashion.

You're going to have to come clean. You're going to have to you know, you're gonna have to tell the truth. I'm not going to come down and just look at you talk about something out of the third person. Well he did come clean, and that's why they're the most trusted.

For example, when I'm doing the research on the book, my first book, The Bundy Murders, I was able to get the transcript of the Idaho Investigator and where Bundy confessed to the murder of not just linnet Culver from Pocatello, but from the hitchhiker he picked up on his way to law school in September of nineteen seventy four. Now they you know, Bundy gives great detail how that happened, and he picked up the hitchhiker, and he picked her up just on the outskirts of Boise. Well, he directly

names it. This is the end of life confession. He said, he drove with her down eighty four for three or four hours, and he said that at the time, you know, it was newer highway and it was the older highway, and it would back and forth, and he was eyeing the river off to like his left, and he pulled off and went down some road and that's where he probably whacked the girl in the head. He grabbed a crowbar from behind, whacked her in the head. He said.

He whacked her and took her, dragged her body down the river. Had sexpert Angler slid the body into the water well for some reason, now that's the transcript, that's the End of Life transcript. For some reason. He told one of these other people, and it appears in you know, one of their books that he was riding through the hills of Idaho looking for a hedgehiker and then he did this and did that. And it doesn't match up at all at all with what he said in the

End of Life confession. Now, you can't blame the people that were listening and wrote it down. I think Buddy lighted them. Now why he would do that, I don't know. That's why I say in the book. Is it possible there could have been a second Idaho hitchhiker. I don't think so. But you could say that's possibility, but I don't think so. So. The end of life confessions are the most trusted, the most trusted, you know. The Bundy Murders was published in two thousand and nine. I finished

it in July two thousand and eight. I never did get to hear the transcripts of Dennis Couch, the detective. I couldn't I couldn't locate them. Last year. Dennis Couch gave those tapes and they're all over the internet now to a TV station in Utah, and you can hear it. And you know, even in that, you know I knew he took Mike Fisher said that he believes he's the one that told me he believed that Bundy took a couple of the victims up to his roominghouse. Mike thought

he kept them in the utility closet. Thought to myself, no, Bundy would have carried him upstairs. He would have. I just know he would have. There's no way he's gonna keep it. I've been there. He wouldn't have kept him in the utility clause. I just don't think that well, in this thing of tapes of Couch when he's talking about the abduction of baby Kent, he admits there he carried her up to his apartment, and this would be

his apartment at five sixty five First Avenue. So, you know, it's just strange to hear that after all these years I knew that he had Debbie. He had to have had her either in his apartment or in his car. And it's odd because you know, he kidnapped her. I guess a little after ten ten twenty. I can't remember

the exact time from Dewont High School. She went to the parking lot, but he was calling Liz an hour or so later, just an hour or so later, And there's no way he didn't have her with him, either in the car or up in his apartment. Well, he tells cats that he took her up to his apartment and he said he killed her like I think the tape says like the next day or something or like, I can't remember, but he did admitting taking her up there.

So in any event, it was very odd hearing that after all these years, because that's one tape I had never heard.

in your book. But it is sort of part of the fictional mythology, and we're going to get to the myths of that have been debunked in this as well, that Ted Bundy was offering advice to law enforcement. He was a very articulate guy. None of these people liked Ted really existed in terms of being studied by anybody before Robert K. Wrestler and John Douglas and these guys at the FBI. So he really was like a valuable commodity, it seemed, if he were to be able to tell

the truth. They did a bunch of brain scans on him and all kinds of physical and mental tests to see if there was anything out of the ordinary physically or physiologically about Ted Bundy. Was there any value to what Bundy was saying in terms of being studied or was it it was no merit to what he had said.

fact about Bundy. A man like Bundy kills it is metaphorically those people belonged to him. They he owns them. He knows what happened to him. He owns the process by which they died. You've got to understand Bundy used to be there. He used to love the fact when the air stopped coming out of their mouth, breathing their last he would look at their fingernails as they would turn. You know that what they call I guess the cyonautic q as as the fingernails turned. He loved that. He

loved it. He wouldn't miss it for anything. He considered all of that stuff sacred and he considered it his. The only reason why he gave up the information he gave up was because he saw the green, the the uh uh, the the the grim reaper coming for him and he wanted to stop it. Now, if they'd have housed Bundy somewhere and not put him to death, there's a great chance he had clammed up, he might have

given them some information. Very arrogant man. And again he only started giving real and verifiable information because he was trying to save his life. And uh, I'm sure he got angry at at at at a lot of these people, Okay, but you know that's just the way it is. He was dishing it out. He was very he was petrified of dying. Of course, the time he died there, that's all a myth that he had to be dragged, you know, out of the cell. And he walked, he walked down there,

you know, he sat down in the electric chair. Don Patchen, I know Don, well, he came in there and he was lead detective on that case down there. That day Don Patchen had a was invited by the governor to have lunch. He canceled that because somebody said, to you want to come see you know Bundy get put to death. He said, yes, I do. But as he walked in there, Bundy you know, you know, waved his hand at him, very calm, and you know he would nod at certain people.

But yeah, I'm sure by then he was just you know, he knew that was it. But when he was fighting for his life, he was willing to talk. So if they'd have held him somewhere, chances are he you know, he would have clammed up. He would never even giving information. There were things he was never going to talk about.

When Bob Keppel asked him, you know, he finally got George Anne Hawkins place you know, up in where he killed her, away from her, you know, story house, and he probably killed around one am, okay, but he stayed with her until about five. Keppel asked him what happened between those hours? Of course, Kepel knows he was playing with her, he was having sex with her, he was doing all kinds of stuff, but he wouldn't talk about it.

He said, we'll have to. He used to have a phrase, well we you know, if we have time, we'll get back to that later. He had no intention of getting back to it. He didn't want to admit that he was having sex with a dead body, with George Ane's dead body. He did admit the kepel. He did enjoy the cyamoutic queue that he would see on the fingernails of the dead women. There was some things he would admit, but there were other things he just wouldn't talk about.

And that goes also for the killing of young girls. As I say in the Bundy murders, slaughtering co eds is acceptable apparently in his mind, but if you start killing them too young, and oh no, that's off limits. I can't talk about it. So keeping him alive after that you might not have gotten anything. It just be mockery. You know, if he'd been alive, I probably wouldn't even even gone to see him. And I'll tell you why.

I have a short fuse for people around. I probably would have ruined the meeting by saying something, you know, stupid and maybe becoming angry. I got the truth from the record and from the investigators and from everybody involved. A lot of people in Florida said, here's how you

know Bundy's lying. He's moving his lips. So I don't know how ed. Yeah, really, seriously, I don't know how advantageous it is for people to interview him and get anything from him except back except I think in the third person he shot pretty straight to Hugh Ainsworth and Steve Michell, and when Holmes was dealing with him, the criminologist from Louisville. I think he shots straight with Holmes too, But a lot of people could come in and talk

to him. I don't know, And like I say, I don't think he shots straight with everybody necessarily that was trying to help him. And now he did tell doctor Art Norman at the end. He did admit to killing a couple of women in New Jersey when he was back east, but he kept pretty shut mouth to everybody else. He almost had to catch Bundy at the right time sometimes to get anything from him. Mike Fisher said, you've got to get him when he's exhausted. You can't wait

till he gets rested. He told the Florida people, You've got to get information from him while he's exhausted. If you wait until he's rested, he'll clam up, he won't talk, and that's what he did.

Bundy surely was more than downplayed in there. Now, you include some letters that really aren't so alarming or shocking, but you include them. They're very interesting and letters to an Rule. Now, given that he told the truth to certain people, that certainly makes a lot of sense. He worked at a suicide hotline with Anne Rule, and he corresponded with her right to the very end, and you include some of those letters. How much of this of the truth did he tell Anne Rule?

linked to Bundy. They work together, you know, as crisis you know, counselors. You know, he corresponded with her. They were together at times, she came down to Florida. So but that's what makes that book unique because it's her story with him. And I wouldn't call it like a biography like mine or like uh the only you know, living witness. But but that's what makes her book special anyway.

Uh Now, Rule talks about and the only place I use anything in my book with the Bunny Murderer Rule is that in a police record that talks about when Bundy came back to Washington after he was Alan Dale and he was getting ready in his nineteen seventy six and he was getting ready to stand trial for kidnapping of Karen Ranch. Come January. It's nineteen seventy five, come January,

he would be standing in trial. He goes there and he has one day he has lunch with her and at a I think it's a French restaurant downtown and he's being tailed by the cops. And I know that. In Anne's Rule book, I think she said they met for two hours, and I point this out in the book, but I think the colopd says three. So there's a discrepancy there. I don't know who's right, but I gave

both stories. But Ruel mentions in her book she said that Bundy chose to sit with his back they must have been in a booth instead of looking her in the eye. In the eyes, he had his back to her and he would like talk off and I think that was intentional, that he wouldn't look her in the eye.

And this was noticed by Anne Rule, so she might have thought he was doing a little bit of line, you know, he was being a little bit you know, cagy with her and so but she know that's what she said in the book that you know, he just looked straight ahead, So that might have been a tip off to Anne Rule. Still, though Ann Rule, which is like anybody else, it took a long time for her to believe that he could really be capable of these things.

So but basically the connection there, and I'm sorry, did I miss a question you had about that about Anne Rule.

other right almost right to the very end. And when she said she did, she ran out of the courtroom I believe in and vomited in the washroom at the at the sort of the idea that yes, this person that she shared that she shared so many things with and information with that she had introduced, introduced her young daughter and to uh the Ted Bundy and considered him a friend and vice versa and so just and what was more even more interesting, while they were working at

that suicide hotline, she being a former police officer, was doing some writing with the detective magazines and she just got a publishing deal. When and if this person that was running around killing women, was caught and apprehended, and it had to be the person she was working with that night, And so incredible beginning of anyone's career in true crime, especially when you're dealing with the infamous Ted Bundy.

around you know, everybody that he was with. So yeah, it's it's uh, it's strange. In fact, she I thought about her a number of times at HUT when I was out in the Pacific northwest west of the Seattle area. I'm going over these sights, and like I say in the book, I knew she had been in the hospital eighty three. You know, that's not all that unusual, But I didn't know she was that sick. And uh, you know, after my wife and I returned to Louisville about a

week or so later, we heard she passed away. So yeah, it's a shame. But anyway, yeah, it's interesting she did she uh she It was just tough for her to believe that, and that's understandable.

he was his parents were actually his grandparents. And the second myth is or at least we can talk about that, is that the reason he chose victims was because they looked like a girlfriend that spurned him early on. She wanted him back, but it was too late, and his victimology was related to the part in her hair and the looks and the comparison with the brown or darker

hair with his girlfriend. So let's first tackle myth one and myth two and what you discovered in both of your books, but especially the trail of Ted Bundy regarding these myths.

is in the record. He had significant rage because he was illegitimate and he never knew his father. That much is certain. However, if you look to the fracturing of his personality, you've got to go back to when he was a little boy. This is this is, this is.

He was so little, just just a little thing, maybe three years old something like that, when he took these kitchen knives and he stuck them in the bed around his aunt, under the covers with the pointsport facing towards towards the body and she woke up and saw him doing this. Now that speaks of something really off kilter. That's something really psychologically off that a boy would do that, and you know, and so something happened to his personality.

There is some type of fracturing not going to be caused because he thought his mother was a sister and that was cured early, but even as an adult man, when he was interviewed by the probation and parole officer after he was convicted in the Carol Dourange case, and this probation officer interviewed him to make this report and he asked about his father. He said that his face

got read and became contorted. Can you imagine that? And it took him a moment to calm down, and then he had a response in something I'm quoted in the book, but it's something like, well, you can say that he left my mother and me and never returned. But that rage that came out of him, you know, somebody could be very sorry they didn't know their father. Well, most people don't have that. And he's an adult, he's a grown man, and this rage comes up in him. That's

the monster revealed. So that was there, but it had nothing to do. I can't find it in the record where he believed that that foolish thing about his mother being his sister and all that stuff, grandparents being the parent that was fixed when he was a little boy. And I'm sorry. What was the second thing again?

wealthy family. She was you know, she didn't come from the same socioeconomic background as Dead. But she liked Ed the first time around, you know, I mean, she liked him. He was fun to be with, but he had his things and ways of doing certain things that she didn't like anyway, And like he'd used her credit card, just just kind of a leech to women. But he had baggage and he didn't look like he was succeeding in some areas, and so she dropped him, and that crushed Bundy.

Now here's the thing. When he got into law school and he started to really kind of surge in life and people started to take notice. She became interested again.

So they started meeting again. And and you know, Bundy was at one point off working in Olympia, Okay, And of course he had Liz Kendall who believed they were going to get married, and she was helping him through law school and helping him in other ways, you know, financially, and he's working, but she's helping He's dating Diane Edwards again, or as I say, you know and so so there was a guy talked to who had hired Bundy for one of these you know, you know, a political jobs.

He said, I never even heard of Liz Kendall, but I remember Diane. And so he set it up for them to be married. He asked her and she agreed. But listen to me, he had no intention of marrying her. All this was was a getting back at her. She leaves to go. He had no intention of marrying her, no intention. This is right before he started to murder. I believe this was in December of seventy three. He would be killing the next month, and he knew it. And so he gets her to marry. This is his

way of making of getting even evening the score. She goes back to San Francisco. He never calls her again. Six weeks later, she's calling him, saying, well, what's up with you? Why don't you call me? Why not this? Why not bad? And I say, in my book The Bunny Murders that you know, she's stronger than Bunny. But you know, here's a man who has never had a loss for words with her. He just shuts up and he listens to her and she said, never call me again.

Like I say, that's I say, she's stronger than him. Quick.

They're adding authors all the time, and uh, I think this is my third book with them, and I'll be get you know doing another I'm doing research right now on another book that will be published by Wild Blue Press. And it's just a great group of people and a great group of writers and uh yeah, we all enjoyed very much.

great night. And I hope to hear again. Thank you soon.