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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Night Stalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with
your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski. In a park in Bacop, Lancashire, England, on the night of August eleventh, two thousand and seven, twenty one year old Sophie Lancaster and boyfriend Robert Maltby were duly attacked my five teenage boys aged fourteen to seventeen. They were attacked simply because they dressed differently. Sophie had been attacked after trying to protect her boyfriend and was pulled from life support thirteen
days later. Robert survived with numerous serious injuries. The first journalist on the scene, Catherine Smight, provides a dramatic perspective to the case as a mother and a member of the media who became inextricably involved in the story forever The book chronicles the attack, the town where it happened, the court case, the national and international media interest, and the launch of the Sophie Lancaster Foundation. It also uncovers
some anomalies. The police admitted initially attending the wrong park. The Ambulance Service has yet to explain while it took fourteen minutes for first paramedics to reach the scene just a mile away. The book that we're featuring today is The Sophie Rancaster's Story with my special guest journalist and author Katherine Smythe. Welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing to this interview.
Catherine Smythe, thank you very much for inviting me. Thank you very much. Incredible story. Let's get to an introduction. We're talking about Bacup, Lancashire, England. So tell us for our audience where exactly this is and describe Bacup and then we can talk about your background that brought you to this case and like I said, inexpectably involved with this case forever.
Bacup is quite a small town. It's on the outskirts of Rossendale. Rossendale is made up of five small towns. They were all clubbed together to when they decided to have an MP for the area, and although the individual town at one stage had their own municipal authorities, they were all combined to form Rossendale Council and bake Up is part of that. That is in turn is part of the Lancashire, which is a much larger county. Stretching quite a distance from Rossendale is the furthest East and
then right the way through to Blackpool. So you can imagine quite different area and quite different areas, quite different sizes of areas. We've got cities, towns, but Rossendale of all of the whole of Lancashire is probably one of the smallest areas.
Now, tell us a little bit about your background as a journalist and how you came to be involved with this case.
Well, about my first job as a reporter in the Rossendale Valley, covering and at that time it's called Ramsbottom. That was in nine teen eighty eight. From being a reporter in Rossendale, worked for an inning newspaper and after having children, went back to working for my ominal newspaper, Rossendale Free Press. The time at the time Sophie and Rob were attacked. At that time, I was not actually
on call. But because I lived in the same area where this attack took place, somebody contacted me on the Sunday evening to tell me that something had happened in the park. So as a result, because I'm a journalist and obviously I'm nosy, I chose to walk to go out of the park that night. I took my young son and we went in the car. As far as he was concerned, we were just going to play. But really I was going to try and see if there
was anything that I could find. So that's the reason why they've said I was the first journalist on the scene, because I knew about it before the police had made any kind of releases to the media.
Now, before we get to August eleventh, two thousand and seven, in this stubbly stubbily park, let's talk about sort of the incidents of this. What kind of places bakeup in terms of violence, in terms of gangs, in terms of teenagers running amock, what's its incidents, What's what's it really like there previous.
To this, Prior to this, Bakeup always had a little bit of a dubious reputation. Don't get me wrong, there are some incredibly good people in Bakup, just as there are in every town. But unfortunately there always seems to have been a prompt to coting trouble, making life difficult for bess owners, showing people in the community, and it's very sad. That is obviously how a lot of people
have interpreted the town. Unfortunately, there was also, probably more so then than now, a great degree of intolerance regarding people of different colors. Black people in the town were few and far between. It was seen as a place where it was almost like whites only at one stage. Things have evolved a little bit that still to this day, compared to the other towns in Rossendale, there is a very very small percentage of minority ethnic origin people.
Well, you read in your book that other communities in the area are about ninety percent white, which is I thought interesting and surprising. But yet Bacup is even more so white. Didn't you say ninety eight percent in the book.
That's any data that I could obtain at the time, Yes, it would be slight. It's distillericity of people. Yes, even they're obviously in Rottenstall and Haslingden we've got mosques, But in Bakeup it's a totally different generic.
Now, you had just spoken about getting the call from your friend that lives in the area, and you went as a reporter and as a so tell us more about the call and what you did learn as a scene of the When.
You did arrive, the call quite literally just said that there's been something going on in the park. My friend described to me seeing men in white overalls. Now, I'd been a journalist for far too many years not to know that that was scenes of crime officers, and that meant it was incredibly serious. When I got to the park, my initial walk through because obviously I was, as I said, being no and decided to go and have a look. My initial walk through the park took me straight past
the skate park, but I noticed nothing. There was no tape, There was nothing at that scene to have indicated that that was where anything had happened. I proceeded to go through the rest of the park. It's an absolutely beautiful park Stubbury. You have a series of steps that go down towards a beautiful little to fall that runs along the bottom. It's called Fairydale. It is a lovely area. But there was no indication that anything had gone that BIAT that I had been at other stages at other times.
It was a lot quier than when I'd seen Usually there would be quite a few children on the skate park. I don't seeing anyone on the skate park that night, and as I walked through the rest of the park again, the whole air did seem quietly quitted. There was no line of any police involvement, no no sign of any even police tape that had been written down. There was just nothing. So at that stage I didn't know where the incident had taken place other than somewhere in the park.
Now, you were a news editor of the Rosendale Free Press at that time, but yet the next morning, August thirteenth, you found out information via the BBC. Tell us what you heard that morning.
When I woke up that morning, I always you would wake up to the radio, so BBC Radio Lancashire was playing, and the first item on the news was that there'd been an attack in the park and two people had been left seriously injured. At that stage they were only describing it as a mob attack. And the information we got through was exactly the same. At the office, it was.
It was a message that had been left on the police news Line, which is an accessible number for journalists so that they can obtain news about what's going on rather than having to keep hassling who super communications. There was very lacking in disction than to say the name of the park, which obviously I'd conferred what I knew from the day before, and the fact that these two people at that stage it just said a twenty one year old and a twenty year old were in hospital.
It was only about fifteen minutes after I'd got into the office. Often and collig that work for By sheer coincidence was Robert's uncle rang me to tell me exactly who was involved in this incident, what had happened, and obviously sent some photographs as well to the newspaper. When we got the pictures through, I immediately recognized Sophie, Which is a bit of a scary situation. List you can tend to be remote from an awful lot of things that go on, even though they're horrific, even though they
hurt you. You don't know, and you can't associate the person with the person because there's somebody whom you don't know. But when you see a photograph and you go, oh my god, I remember seeing her, I remember seeing bakeup.
She was walking and when I worked out where I'd actually seen her, she was very obviously walking back to her house on King Street, and that made it all the more shocking because I can remember I had my children with me and isn't beautiful for Sophie she was quite a vision with beautiful, beautiful, long black clothes, dreadlocked hair. It had the green braid tied in it at the time, and you really did turn your head stop and say wow.
So to realize it was that that night tact was really quite shocking.
Now from there, from having access to Robert Maltby's uncle, Nigel Lancashire, what other information did you have and that other people didn't have In terms of their relationship you talk about they were living together. So tell us what you did learn from the uncle about in terms of their relationship.
Well, he explained a lot about Sophie and rob about the fact that they had adopted a sort of Gothic type lifestyle. That was the way the people that they were. They were quite independent, quite different, happy and obviously very much in love. At that time. Sophie wasn't working, she was in between she was working out what she wanted to do, and she was looking to go back to college. Rob was working at a local firm so that they could afford to pay for the flats that they shared together.
They sounded like a couple who'd really found each other. They'd found the right person to be and blocked and they had a fantastic relationship, and both Nigel and his wife good friends with both Sophie and Rob. It seemed such a tragic thing to happen to someone who was obviously in such a good place at the.
Time, not just for the record, not that it matters at all, but for people to just sort of wrap their head around this. Again. You talk about how beautiful Sophie was, and sure the photos clearly demonstrate that in the book as well. And then she had these dreadlocks again would look great, and then had this ribbon coiled through there, and she had some piercings. But tell us what Robert Maltby, just for the record, look like as well, you know, because this will be important when we talk
about people being attacked for looking differently. So how much differently did you Robbly look?
Robert again was call he had dark hair that was quite I think his hair varied. Sometimes it was dyed red, sometimes it was dark. And again his head. His hair was quite long in comparison to maybe most people, and he had retainers in his ears, which obviously form a hole between the ear lobe and the main part of the ear. And they both looked quite different. They both had obviously they were following a certain goffy style, quite different to what you would see within the Bay Area.
The relationship they had, let's talk about again. I asked this question, but it's sort of in my mind. I think the audience would ask too, what was the prevalence of occurrences of gang activity or major assault in this double park.
Prior to this incident, Stubbley Park had become a bit of a teenage haunt on an evening on the rare occasion that I've been there. Bear in mind, I'm a bit considerably older than the teenagers who would hang out. I would see a lot of older kids. There was a gang culture in Bakeup. They'd got this bake Up Terror Group, which was a bit bizarre, but they would slogan the town center with BTG and they would almost it seemed like there were sort of fights being picked
between different areas as well. Although Rossendale is all one area regarding local council and MP, it is very split and people from Whitworths that actually had on with some
areas would sort of be pitting against each other. There had been at that time a youth project which was started within the Pennine Road area which was originally a council estate, and that had been to belonging people who were living as an offshoot of that youth project where they made a video and one of the people involved
in the Sophie k was on that video. It did seem a little bit like it was a video for the gang rather than necessarily a video for the project, but it was a way the people that it was. It was a way of king the missions, not if you'd go down and brandishing wooden sticks in what could only really describe as a bit of a menacing manner.
Yeah, it's very interesting when you talk about the the rap video with the woodsticks and the menacing manner, and again this is supposed to be a community project video. It's very kind of well, to say the least, odd talk Let's let's talk a little bit about Sophie's mother, Sylvia, and and sort of the relationship that she had in her family despite this alternative lifestyle, how accepted was it from her family?
Sylvia accepted Sophie's decisions with ease. She was quite happy with her daughter's choices. It was it was entirely up to her daughter what she decided to do at six years old. That she wasn't beaten and became a Verian. So you kind of got an idea that this was somebody who knew their own mind from a very young age. She then took to having her hair dyed black and having wearing long black trench coats, dark coats, and obviously this gothic style was already coming out to a young age.
But for Sylvia, she said, always said that she was really happy that her daughter content within herself. I think that's something that you find with your children that so long as they are and they are happy, no matter what they choose to be or how they choose to be, that's what matters most of all.
You know, let's talk about the night in question. What time are we talking about? What were Robert and Sophie doing and before they got to the park, tell us the circumstances surrounding them, what their decisions That evening tell us about.
That, Well, Robert and Sophie have been out for the night. They've been out at a friend's house. Nothing unusual about that. Yes, a whole consumed a massive amount. Walked from this friend's house, which was on the outskirts of Bakeup, towards their own home, which was in the right start back center in the town center. They started walking for some reason I did. This was probably after midnight. For some reason, they decided
that they were cigarettes. Obviously they must have run out, so they went to what would have been the only place open at the time, which is like a service station attached to a petrol and they went there to get the cigarettes. And that's where they met the first
group of people. They were young youth. We don't know specifically how old they were, but they were chatting to Sophie and Rob and they were quite fascinated with their appearance because they did look different to what would be considered the norm, and so obviously they drew quite a lot of attention. Sophie and Rob will sharing those cigarettes out between these young people, and by all accounts, they
seemed quite friendly at that time. One person who was within that group said something on the grounds of that they didn't feel happy or didn't feel confident being around Sophie and Rob, that that was because their appearance was
so different. They were uncertain. I don't know, but they didn't feel to be there, a precursor to maybe what went on once they then moved on from the petrol station to an area near the park where and more youth were congregating, and then for some reason which really understood, they moved and walked into the park with some of those young people. Once they got to the skate park,
they were being photographed. There was a by all accounts to some of the young people in the park were photographing Sophie because obviously she looked so much so different to them. Also as the gang of five who were subsequently charged with this murder and assault. There was a number of other young people in that park at the time, and they flocked around Sophie and Rob because they found fasting interesting. Who wouldn't They looked completely different to the
other young people. Sophie, especially with all the piercings, which would probably have been quite you are definitely unusual to the young people that were there. That's when it all changed. That's when the assault started.
Now, how was the assault initiated? I mean, again, you just paint this picture of sort of no provocation whatsoever. These people are twenty one years old and there's people ranging from fourteen maybe to seventeen eighteen years old. But we're talking about like one am so yeah and what and like you say, maybe some alcohol, maybe maybe somebody was smoking marijuana. I don't know if there was any evidence of that, but it seems like an innocent situation.
Doesn't seem to be any major history of any gang swarming, of anybody attacking people. So from the information that you have, what initiated this assault on Robert Maltby, Well.
There's two. Somebody said something on the lines of he's a Marshall, let's bang in. That expression was definitely used leading to the hate crime, leading to the attack because they're different. There was also, I believe, because that the people that we were talking about who started this attack, I believe it's possible that there was a degree of jealousy.
Sophie and Rob had walked into their territory. This was their patch, this skate park at that time of night was their area, and suddenly somebody had walked in who was more interesting than them. And I know it sounds basic to say jealousy, but I believe there was a degree of jealousy as well. The actual expressions used were the fact that there was a they were mocked street named for a goth bang them And so it went on. And so the attack started. Initially on Rob. Rob was punched, kicked,
hits stamped to the ground. Once he was on the ground, they then king and head body. It was absolutely horrendous assault. Then once Rob was lying on the ground from eyewitness statements, Sophie then cradled head in her lap. I'm guessing she was maybe shouting at them more telling, you know. And while she was on the ground, they then set about
attacking her. Bear in mind, this is a very petite, tiny, tiny young thing, and to have attacked her in the way and the manner that they did, there could only have been one outcome. While all this was happening, some of the young people in the park that didn't scatter, that didn't run away, tried the best to try and stop this assault happening. They pulled out the attackers and
in court. The attackers could not explain why they'd had handprints at the tops of their shoulders and their arms, and the reason that was because people were trying to pull them off to stop them doing what they were doing. They made emergency for they tried to get help and watun only fled. They then tried to help both Sophie and rub Sadly, obviously what has happened to Sophie was too severe, but they did their very best for those people that to be honest, they didn't even know, they
didn't know who they were. It happened.
Yes, you write about the considerable risk that these young people did, and it's encouraging this story too that they did that, because then there's so many stories of the exact opposite response in a case like that, like I wouldn't want to write on my friends, or I didn't
know what to do. These people did take considerable action and called the emergency services, and as you chronicle in your book, it's very heartbreaking that they're actually on the line with emergency services that and I'll get you to explain this right away. They seem seemingly confused where to go and who knows if the ambulance would have, you know, getting to the scene quicker would have helped it all.
But they were actually being attacked still while these brave young kids were on the phone with emergency services.
Well, the first call, the first call is made from park Row to the area where the kids had congregated before, or they've came into the park that first call. When that's made, they've obviously left a scene. They've made the call from away. So they mentioned the word because that they do so clearly that the picking place in Bakeup Park. Now, if you use a GPS system and you're not local, you would type in the word Bakeup Park and you would get nothing. It doesn't exist. It's a generic name
that people use here. It's a colloquial name. It's the one that everybody uses, but it's not the specific name. It's not the proper name. The proper name is Stubbily. So then if they well, Bakeup doesn't work, let's type in part Road. There's a loads of everything town City and there's a lot in Rossendale. So you've got those little bits of information going to somebody who isn't local, because no control centers are local anymore. To that the second phone call is then made from inside the park.
While that second phone call made by the girl is being made, you can actually hear the attack going on in the back ground. It can only be the attack because you can hear someone basically shouting, get off him. You can hear others shouting what you're doing. You can feel the atmosphere behind the written word. You can actually physically see what's going on. So you have got a girl stept out of her wits, fourteen years old, on her phone, trying to get help for these two people.
She doesn't even know. She hasn't got a clue who they are, how old they are. All she knows is they've been beaten within an inch of their lives. And it's wrong. She says on the phone, Oh God, you bet I better not get into trouble for this. That who he's petrified. So where's the ambulance? Where's the ambulance? Call? Fifteen year old boy makes a second phone call in the park. You've got the girl on the phone and the boy on the phone at the same time. The
attackers are still in the area. They could have been victims three and four very easily. A girl is to see what condition rob is. All you can hear, all you can read in the background was what are you doing? There's only one person that can be directed at. It's directed at that girl. What is What is terrifying in this is how could so easily have been a much worse situation? Horrific as it is? All the time the girl and the boy are saying the words, where's the
ambulance happening? Where are they? What are they doing? Fourteen minutes? This phone call lasts fourteen minutes the ambulance is dispatched, But the ambulance is dispatched almost as soon as the first call is made. So why does it take fourteen minutes to drive a mile? I can walk it faster. I did. I tried, So I'm wondering. I'm going through
these notes. Bear in mind it's two o'clock in the morning, because I could write it easier then, for some reason, when everybody was gone to bed and quiet, I could write better. So I'm writing this at two o'clock in the morning, and I start to read the copy, and I'm going why is this if the panscript the same thing again and again and again. Now Waterfoot is another
town it's about three miles from Bakeup. It's another town with another park on Park Road with the skate park, so you've got so many similarities there to what the original Paul was assault in a park in park that the assault was in Bakup Park. Unfortunately, that information given correctly to the ambulance personnel. I did try to find out off the ambulance if they'd onto the wrong in the wrong direction, and I got two replies saying that
they didn't. I did never get I never ever got an explanation as to why it took fourteen minutes to go a mile. I spoke to the police who immediately said, yes, we went to the wrong park. We went off the information we were given from the ambulance service and we went to Park Road Waterfoot. I don't think that needs any further explanation.
Right now, emergency people arrive, of course the perpetrators are not there, and they take him to the hospital. The police, you rite that they don't believe it's that serious or they're going to be able to recover and give some kind of descriptions of the people. So how do police proceed? What does what happens at the hospital in terms of the health of Sophie and Robert.
Well. Sophie and Robert were initially taken to Rochdale's. Rob was kept in there, but Sophie was more serious and was transferred. Rob ended up being transferred to North Manchester General, where a good friend of mine was actually a nurse looking after him.
Rob was.
Y and disoriated. He was not in a good place. He was very confused and mixed up. Didn't understand what had gone on. Sophie was in a much much more serious situation and she was transferred to Hope Hospital. She was on a life support machine. Although initially the police thought that they would both recover, she was They were very,
very seriously injured. She unfortunately was only managed to be kept life for thirteen days, and after day eleven it was obvious that she, unfortunately was not going to make it. I was informed obviously by Nigel that this was what was going to happen, and Rob was invited to go in and see Sophie for one last time before the life support machine was turned off. At that time, we didn't know Sylvia at all, we didn't know family members.
The police, understandably in these situations tend to tell the family not to live the press, not to with the press, just go through her family as officer issue statements. So at this time, apart from our own personal attacked with Nigel, we didn't have any link to the family. It must have been absolutely horrendous, not just for Sylvia but Adam, absolutely just a living How.
Yeah, that's an incredible situation. Robert having to go in and say so long and again you describe them as sort of a childlike and disoriented and clearly you know, mentally and physically affected by this attack. And then this what I wanted to ask was when we talk about the injuries to Robert and Sophie, we did not well, unfortunately, we should describe exactly the extent of the injuries. You even talk about part of Sophie's scalp being ripped from
her head. So tell us about the injury that caused the death of Sophie and the near death of Robert.
When they were attacked, they were they were kicked and stamped about the face, the head, the body. They once described it as they volley kicked her head. That leaves a horrendous, a horrendous image in your mind. They said that they used like, well, that doesn't make any sense whatsoever. The attack was sustained and continuous, and it makes you wonder if they even saw Sophie and Rob as people, because they attacked and hurt them so badly. They were
pain marks on Sophie's face quite clearly. You could see the star shape of the lace. Her face was very bad use the photographs of that were issued by the family afterwards. Sophie's hair had been yanked and part was missing. It had to be stapled back by the doctors. It was absolutely some of the worst, some of the worst
injuries that I think if I've ever heard. They when the ambulance paramedics arrived, both Sophie and Rob were in such a bad state and they'd been injured so much that they couldn't tell which was male and which was female, and the difference between robbed much. I'm so bad injured they didn't know which was which.
So after this attack, obviously we talked about the fourteen year old witness and the fifteen year old witness. So it doesn't take too long before police hear about who the people are that are involved. So who do police speak? First find out about information and then who do they first approach and what is the end result from that interview?
I think it was. I think it was quite difficult for the police at first because there is this you don't split, you don't you don't break the code and so as a result, you are asking young people to do all of those things and to break the code and to tell Now, although they they did have a good idea who'd done this pretty early on, the biggest problem is that you've also got a situation where you've got young people and they find it hard to talk
to an older police officer. So the detective inspector being hold and who was in charge, and what a fantastic copper, he was absolutely superb to work with. He employed young, newly trained female police officers and young police officers who would be able to They were not the same situation where you were dealing with a young person who was nervous to speak to the police officer. At the end of the day, that's what they are, whether they're a young police officer or one who's been in service for
a long time. But that was a really clever initiative and that's how they managed to extract the information who had done This was all around town. By the neckbye, I meant Nick masseling up from the after school club. I was being told, we're in the part of that day, an awful lot of what had happened, so people everybody knew what had gone on, but it was difficult to get that information. They did have the names early on, and they'd already started making arrests by the Sunday.
Now you talk about in the book, they talk about Joseph Hume and and his interview where he didn't denies any involvement, but they don't just speak to him once. So tell us about the interviews with Joseph Hume, and again, what does what does the police get out of that conversation with him? Those interviews?
Right, I'll have to I'll have to find that in detail because I would not want to get it wrong. So can you come back to me on that.
Sure? Certainly in general the found well, pardon me, go ahead.
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Can you ask your question please?
Oh? Okay. What I'm saying is in general. The specifics of that are in the book. In terms of there's multiple interviews. He makes three statements. Joseph, he talks about touching Rob's phone, because that's one of the things that's part of one of the exhibits. Part of the evidence is Robert Maltby's phone. So he explains that he touched it, which again we'll explain later thinking ahead, that will explain
his fingerprints being on that phone potentially. Now his brother is Danny Hume, the two brothers involved, and the police speak to these guys and also we have a gentleman named Herbert, and we have Harris, So Harris Herbert, Danny Hume, Joseph Hume and so and Daniel Mallett. So again who to police, what have they heard in terms of the ring leaders of this incident? It takes a while, as you say, because you've got to get through this youth
culture and their oath of allegiance to each other. So tell us what information the police have and how they proceed with it.
At the start, it was quite clear that there were certainly Harris and Herbert were definitely ringleaders. Both had a reputation, both were known, both were very familiar, and both had actually carried out a very similar assault in the park before. This is for they'd been given a youth referral order, which is is in Layman's turns are ticking off, naughty boy. Okay, you're supposed to adhere to the youth referral order, but they very rarely go anywhere, so they had got form now.
Both dooms also had fun which was although they never there was another incident in a town in the in the village where they lived, where somebody was attacked, but they never pressed charges, so the case never got caught. However, it brought striking similarities to what happened in the park.
The older brother, Joseph Hume, was also known. He was he was waiting trial for witness intimidation, and that trial never went ahead because obviously the murder trial at which it was at that stage was more serious, so that case against him was never pursued. So he had got some you'd heard of, some of the names, you'd heard of, some of their form their history. But the one that was unusual was Daniel Mallett. He was not somebody that
people had heard a lot about. He lived in a very nice area, and it was came as quite surprised that he got for some reason in Bakeup. He had been at high school with Herbert, but it's not known whether or not they had any association because none of none of the five. Obviously the brothers lived in the same same house, but the others lived in completely different areas. In bake Up, in Stackstead and in the Chauff. You put all five together and written they were. As far
as the police go, it was a difficult job. The bony person that immediately went up was Mallet, but again Mallett was not a ringleader or went tom. He held his hand up and admitted attacking rob once and then he said that that was it, This isn't right, I'm not you know, and step back. What went on and who actually did what? We'll never find out and Unfortunately, because because of the nature, because Herbert had pleaded guilty,
his evidence was never heard. And Harris, when he was in court on trial, basically blamed everything on Herbert, so that the person that was that could have said what had happened Herbert never gave evidence. Whether it had all the truth or not, who knows, but the fact.
That for.
Trying to look in I want to know, so you want to know what happened, what happened that night to cause this, and nobody actually told you because the person that could have given that crucial bit of information had admitted his part in his guilt, so it was just immediately out of the picture as far as the court case goes.
It was very interesting. Danny Hume said he blamed the attack on Herbert, and of course he minimized his role obviously, he said he tried to save Sophie. Daniel Mallett is striking in the book. He cried in six interviews Harris again just blamed everything on Herbert, and Herbert wouldn't talk at the same time, though, which is an astounding part of this book. At the same time this is happening, there is this movement occurring and a slow and you
were involved with it as well. The Humberg, Wholm brothers and Mallet got bail, while Harris and Herbert were confined. And you say their names couldn't be they couldn't be named in public because of their age, But everybody knew their name. Everybody knew who these people were. And with that, and with Sophie and with the community came an upswell
of support and interest and basically outrage as well. So tell us about the movement that seemed to be forming at the same time around the murder of Sophie and the near murder of Robert Malby.
There was drilled and it was organized by a youth movement that SOFA had been involved with, and they held fundraiser and that seemed to spark things. Suddenly people were saying that this isn't right, it's wrong, What's what's gone on wrong? And these fundraisers just kept happening. There in
the planned andraiser at in Bakeup. I knew that I'd covered, obviously stories about the fact that this fundraiser was going to take place, and I'd written stories in the paper, and I'd gone out to meet the people involved, and I went to the event itself, which is not my thing. I don't do football. However I went along because it seems to be the right thing to do. The fundraiser was incredible that there'd been a song written a Walk in the Park by Cosmic Slop, one of the organizers
of the event, and that song just resonated it. Someday everything that happened. That was when we started making these ribbons which were sold all over Rossendale and that led me to being asked to go an interview. So Sylvia.
Now with the Again it's unprecedented and you're not supposed to get involved, but you do speak with Sylvia, Sophie's mother, and again this ground swell of support and interest and like you say, these ribbons and then later we get other merchandise that is being sold as fundraisers and all kinds of other people get involved. Tell us about the media interest in this right from the beginning, and again we'll talk about how the media interest stayed with this story.
But tell us about the national and international media interest at that time.
By the expert, I was in Burnley Magistrates. That was when the first approach came from a lady who worked for a production TV production company. She was interested in doing some kind of documentary. Now I've had these before and you've kind of like you've got to choose who you're going to talk to. Sometimes you've got to decide whether you're going to bother because you don't know where it's going to go. But to be fair, she did seem very genuine, so I took her around bakeup shoulder
what we were doing shoulder the area. Subsequent to that, I was contacted by a guy who was with Radio four and again he wanted information on the town where things had happened, so pretty similar, I met up with him for the bizarre. I met up with him in a restaurant that I go to with my husband. Knew the restaurant owner incredibly well, walked in and he automatically went, ah, you needed this table over here, Catherine, and led me to who was sitting having a meal. Blamed to Mario.
But he was a nice guy. So a background piece for the radio. And it's difficult. You have a situation where either you help the national media in a situation and you hope they get the story right, or you leave them to their own devices and know it pretty much. They may have an agenda, So we did get involved in try and make sure that what this was genuine, that it's just the way it worked. And then obviously somebody approached me about writing a book. So hence what's happened.
And Sylvia was obviously not Again most people would advise against cooperating with the media. A lot of people would just sort of recoil or go into a shell and not want to be any type of public figure at all. Now that she was not that she attended every concert or anything, but there was a support from Sylvia and
basically the porters for everything. That was again the sort of a concerted message of tolerance that and so tell us about this sort of a concerted everybody was on the same page in terms of being supportive for once of something that was going to come. Some of course, everybody at a trial is going to hear the recounting of the assault itself, which is very, very difficult, and
they couldn't even handle that. But tell us about sort of that solid aarreita that it existed in this movement with some kind of common goals.
As I think, whenever something horrific happens, you have two choices. You can metaphorically speaking, sitting the cubounds forever, or you try and do something positive in case it was positive then at least horrendous reality of what happened sometimes it can make it easier to do so when I've carried out that first interview, that was the first time she mentioned about the s Phi E and the bands and Sophie standing for stamp out prejudiced hatred and intolerance everywhere.
And she told me about starting this charity that evolved into what is now the Sophie Lancaster Foundation. But you'd see that in those early days that this was sting Sylvia a focus, and I think it helped her to be able to concentrate on making that happen and fantastic success she's made of it now. So you could see in those early days that there was some I don't hate to say the word good, but something positive was
going to come out of what happened. And the tremendous work that's now being carried out has been supported by all and was being supported cross Rosendell and obviously not Roden. This spread by getting emotion about things happening in America, things happening around the world, fundraisers for the same appeal. This little tiny it's called Rossendale that nobody had ever heard of for any good reason, and no reason why anybody should have heard of Rossendale particularly, but it was
it was a positive thing that was coming out. It's your half way to healing.
Now part of the healing process, or maybe it's not is was the Harris's trial and at that trial you talk about it must have been a horrible experience. Again, I talked about how the families couldn't handle a lot of details and left the courtroom. But it featured a fourteen minute tape of the fourteen year old girl calling police during the attack. Tell us a little bit more about the Harris trial and also again very dramatic. The photos were shown at a trial by the pathologist doctor Carter.
Yeah, the photographs went round. Obviously at that stage, the pictures went to the jury, and they went to the prosecute and the defense, the judge. They didn't at that time go to the press. I was in the press bench on that day and we made a written request from the press that were actually there, asking if those whatures, if the family would give permission for those pictures to
be released. That we hadn't been obvious. They were quite cruel, paste quite physically the damage that the had that has been inflicted on these two defenseless people, neither Sophie nor Rob. But they weren't fighters. They weren't people who picked a fight or try to get involved in one and would walk away. They were pipsive. So they had basically just attacked and kicked to the ground and there was no defense.
They didn't assault on these these boys, and we knew that those pictures be crucial in just showing to people how horrendous what had happened really was. We were told that the family had given approval that once the case is over, we could use them. When they were when they were released, it was shocking, and people that the reaction was one of the complete disbelief that this could
have been allowed to happen. My friend who had treated Robin the hospital said to me that the photographs told a fraction of the true story because she'd seen exactly what they both looked like before, and it was an awful lot worse than images that were released, and the images that were released were horrific.
There was a lot of evidence blood evidence on Herbert for example, and we talked about Herbert and Harris being deemed the ringleader's mallet, not very much at all, and then four were left to be that pled guilty to causing previous bodily harm after in the case of Robert, but they did really concentrate on Harris and Herbert. So what were the what were the sentences like, and before you get to the sentencing and the result of the trial,
what was the demeanor. We kind of skipped over the preliminary where you talk about some of the behavior from the defendants. So talk about the defendants that Lincon and I mentioned the preliminary with the Home brothers and just their overall demeanor at trial.
Well, there was a few incidents that happened. I was in court in December and one of the relatives of one of the accused his mobile phone went off. Now, everybody's had an incident where your mobile phone's gone off, so you go and you can immediately silence it and you never speak. But no, this person answered his phone while his son was on trial for murder and said, sorry,
he can't talk now I'm in court. I was absolutely horrified that anybody would and he was automatically reprimanded, but rather than switch it off, he then left it and it rang again. He was then told that if it rings the third time, you're out of court. That their attitude, the parents' attitude towards what had happened, seemed very matter of fact. At one incident, one of the parents was laughing with their child, waiting to go and speak to
the police officers on the charge of murder. Another incident, a false alibi was given and the officer had to say, change.
Do you.
In course of justice? I cannot believe that anyone would take something so serious so lightly. Words fail me on that. So in court is that attitude of the parents? What is the attitude of the children? At sentencing? Herbert emotions that out judge They were total stony faced, didn't seem
Bob Hume likewise, and Danny Hume didn't seem bothered. The only person that really really deemed worried and scared with Danny Mallett, and he was biting his nails and looked to all intents and purposes like a little child.
What was the reaction in the courtroom, What was the mood like in the courtroom? What was a dynamic bike.
When it came to sentencing or at the end of the trial, end of the trial. At the end of the trial, it was sheer relief when the jury came back and said guilty. You know, in your heart of hearts, how can you possibly not say guilty, But you don't know that they're going to and there is always that element of doubt, and there was there was absolute relief. There was a you could hear the relief as soon as they said guilty. Thank goodness.
Now, what were the sentences like we talk about, you know, truth and sentencing. Did the judge imposed, did the jury recommend? Tell us how that works? And what kind of sentences did they get for Herbert and Harris.
Herbert was given him eighteen years. Herbert had said I didn't do anything, and Herbert had been proved wrong, he had been one of the ringleaders. That was a lot for sentencing anybody, indeed adult for that same crime. Bear in mind fifteen he was only fifteen at the time of the incident. Herbert, because obviously he'd pleaded guilty when he ran out of defenses, he was given initially sixty years. I think it was sixteen years, three months and that
was reduced slightly on appeal. Then you had the three who were only convicted of the attack on rob. The Hume brothers both got five years ten months, and they'd got an early plea. Danny it expressed his intention to play early. Danny Mallett got four years four months. All three are now have now been released.
It it is an indication of a very successful prosecution in terms of you explain as well that Herbert got sixteen and that these are indefinite, that it could be sixteen to life, couldn't It could be eighteen years still life. It's not automatic that they're going to get out.
They are minimum sentences.
Right, and also a very successful prosecution when you can take a minor and get them raised up to adult court and then give them in adult court a very serious sentence as well. So it was an indicative indicative of the of the prosecution. And especially when you see what you wrote about the judge. Tell us what the judge said, which again i'd never it's unusual.
He issued a ten sentencing, whatever, a teen page sentencing. From a from a journalist's point of view, it was absolute dynamic. He described the offenders as feril acting like animals, but that's not fair because animals obviously are much better behaved than that. He did it as a hate crime, which was the one thing that the family had been hoping was going to be said, and that's why the sentences were so severe, because he had viewed it as a hate crime. This was this was the thing that
they'd been wanting to hear. He also he went on to he went into meticulous detail to justify why he had actually decided to give them such severe sentences, and he felt embraces, boxed off everything. It was superb. From a journalist's point of view, it was incredible because it gave us there was so much to write write about. And he also took time to praise those young people who made those calls, so all of the uncivilian doing the job bringing to trial.
What I thought was profound was the judge said, you know, this talk of remorse from the defendants and the end here is hollow. And you know, I couldn't believe I heard that, because that's the way I think. If you were remorseful, you wouldn't have laughed at the preliminary you wouldn't have conducted yourself differently. Number one, you wouldn't attack somebody like a wild animal, worse than a wild animal. And now, and so I was amazed with that.
He saw through very very clearly that what they were saying was not the truth. He summed it up amazingly, and he, you know, he did what the family wanted. He gave them the Infamo, the sentencing they wanted. Unfortunately, whether or not those other three should have been tried for murder, we'll never know.
Yes, in America it might have been a lot different than in the UK as well in terms of their culpability. They got very light sentences. In America, I don't think they would have beared that well, not not.
When you look your way up the injuries that were on Rob, that he was, you know, severely severely beaten.
Well, I mean, in America, I believe, and not I'm not a legal expert in all American states, but I would believe that I would put money on that all five of these people would have been convicted for their partners.
They did originally want to go for a joint enterprise prosecution and the original papers that was what they were going to pursue. It was only after they got Harris, after Herbert sided plead guilty because that took out one key player to have given evidence, and you left with just the evidence of the young people, which I don't think they're viewed strongly enough to be able to get a conviction on them. The other three.
Yeah, and I think they would have been correct with that according to your book too, that there would have been too Yeah.
Well, especially as now it's been on a higher court it started to overturn some of the enterprise verdicts. They're all being reviewed now. If the situation had happened that they'd been convicted of joint enterprise and after you know, so many years now we're nine years after the attack, suddenly they'd all been back in court appealing and they'd in effect not got off with it, but the sentence has been lessened. That would have been even harder for the family to face.
I think, Yes, that's a great point, because that would have been just horrible to go through it again, regardless of any reassurances or assurances that it would get the same verdict. That would just be horrible to go once was enough, you know, Yeah, I wouldn't wishing on my worst enemy. Now with this again again, the bright spot of this book. It's if there is any and there is an incredible sort of brightness to this book. Sylvia met with the Prime Minister Gordon Brown, and the Sophie
Lancaster Foundation is an umbrella organization. You say encompasses media, training, education, work with us, raising awareness, and you say Sophie groups sprang up throughout the world and people have contacted Sylvia. So tell us more about the Gothics Sophie logo and just tell us a little bit more about what has happened with this organization after this trial and after meeting with Gordon Brown, where is the Sophie Ncaster Foundation today?
The work that's been done in those nine years is quite amazing, quite incredible. Sylvia is often called upon to comment as almost like it when there's incidents, because she's obviously got such intense personal experience of this. But also the foundation is starting to build bridges. Its started. It's working in schools, often primary schools, but also high schools and colleges, and it's it's tackling that prejudice head on, looking at the way children perceive other children, don't's perceive
other adults, and trying to break down those barriers. Because somebody looks different doesn't mean that they should be treated differently, not just that it's taking in rows their view. Their reputting of hate crime crime has changed. You are now entitled to say I am a I goth I follow I am and I shouldn't be attacked just because I am No. Sooner had this been introduced in Manchester than someone was arrested very soon after because of the person
who said they were Gothic. So they are making a big difference Coton because that I think gives both Sylvia the knowledge that some something positive has come out of it. But it also it gives that sense of worth that Sophie's happened, but look what has come out of it. It's very sad that a lot of children in primary schools locally don't seem to have heard about what happened
to Sophie. And I've been in doing anti bullying sessions and often I will use what happened to Sophie to challenge the children to think how they would react to somebody who looked differently, to challenge them to think how they perceived about what about them is different to maybe somebody else in the class, and then to think how sometimes people pick on that and why it's wrong. They were very successful the ones that I did, just stopping and making people think before they go to high school
and somebody a name without potential consequences. The Sophie Foundation has done so much good work. That's Sophie logo that you were talking about. I actually face painted that on somebody's head once and it was an amazing thing to do. I took a photograph of it to Sylvia and she said, I thought she thought somebody had had it tattooed on his forehead. That it works only face, so it wasn't that long liing. But there's a lot of people done that. There's a lot of people and had Sophie that Sophie
Gothic logo tattooed on their body. There's so many people who have contacted me from all over who've read the book and want to just talk about because they've got their own experience. There's a lady liaised with regularly and Portugal. She suffers a lot of prejudice. There's a goth out in Canada. Richard Ike speak to him on a regular basis and he suffers. He's I'm trying to remember now sixty I think its sixty two, and he suffers prejudiced
because of who he is. Still there, sadly, it's still going on.
In January two thousand and nine, he wrote in a book that the Sophie Lancaster Foundation entered the political arena with an attempt at a widening of hate crime legislation. Very interesting as well.
They did try to get it, had an early day motion, but it didn't actually progress much obviously, in so the target now is more the police to change the way hate crimes reported.
Excellent. Also, you do mention just for people that may look into it will be motivated to look into this a little bit more. There was a documentary Killer Kids, the Sophie Lancaster Documentary, and another book called The Black Roses The Killing of Sophie Lancaster. It's twenty nine pages of poetry. And you tell us about both those projects and why you felt that they were, you know, a reasonable addition to this book Killer.
Kids, that I wasn't so keen on. I wasn't happy with the way it interpreted the story. There's a lot more to this story than just two people being attacked. There's a lot a lot more. And I also but Black Rose I think is the most incredible piece of poetry I've ever ever read in my life. Yeah, that book is so short and yet with every single rhyme, with every phrase, with every cleverly constructed sentence, it portrays
an image that is lasting. Made into a drama documentary with the actress walking around us, Sophie reciting the take clear just recounting her story, and it was first a radio play and then made into a drama documentary on TV. And also it was a stage production, and I have to say it was one of the most powerful things I think I've ever seen.
Wow, that's Black Roses. That's incredible. The other thing, too, is what I thought was which was fitting for Sophie was the of course, the British band The Damned played on what would have been Sophie's twenty second birthday and we called Stampo prejudiced, hatred and intolerance everywhere. That was a big gig and twenty two black Helium balloons were released at that concert.
I was there.
It was quite amazing to see. And I must admit Captain Sensible, I've always liked Captain Sensible when he got up to play on stage and there was the Sophie band. I managed to get a photograph of him with the Sophie band on his wrist, and he was absolutely brilliant. He just stole the show. And when they based the balloons outside, it was really quite moving.
Yes, you really did capture that too. That was amazing. Basically, I guess I'm gonna ask this last question before I let you go, and I guess it's an obvious question, but how affected were you by doing this story? I mean, of all the things that you've done, all the cases that you've covered, tell us what the effect of this case was for you as a journalist and a person.
Well a couple of years. I'm going to have been a journalist for thirty years, which sounds it's gay and a time mark covered a pot of things I've been effect I've walked away from, or nearly all, but for some got involved with this, and I think my only reason for that is that because it was very close to home. I've got children. We go to that park, that's somewhere I know very well. Albeit I only saw her once, but I saw Sophie, and I remember seeing Sophie,
and it should never have happened. It was wrong, completely and utterly wrong. And I suppose that's why I got involved, because I was angry. As a journalist, you can you are supposed to just report what goes on and not get involved. And I did get ticked off at times. I've been had people say, oh, you didn't do all that. Well, I only reported what really went on, and I only did things because I wanted to try and make a
bit of a difference. And if we kick started some campaign and it's and that's what mattered, It matters for all the people making those ribbons that they were doing something. People wanted to channel their energies into doing something because they were very, very angry, and if I was a means to that end good As a reporter, Yeah, my editor was right. I am supposed to just write what happens, not get involved. But then I'm a person too. I
couldn't just stand back and do it. And if that was wrong, then I'm wrong.
No, you were absolutely right in becoming so involved, and with it you brought the reporting again. You reported so many articles. That's how Sylvia was convinced that you were the right person to speak to. And it wasn't like she was going to speak to everybody, so the one person that she was going to speak to, and you captured this story eloquently and incredibly. I don't want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about
Sophie Lancaster story. For those people that might want to look at your other work or contact you, or do you do facebook websites, tell us a little bit about that if any.
Yeah, we have there's a Facebook group for anybody who's read the book who wants to discuss anything or any aspect. That's just quite literally Sophie Lancaster book. Obviously the books for sale through RJ. Parker Publishing on Amazon. I've been quite staggered at how it's gone. It was published, he just happened to have reviewed it on Amazon. And his daughter has a godfriend who gets a bit of a hard time, and what happened was he gave her a copy of my book, she read it, asked how it
was doing. He checked up and found it wasn't selling and approached me with each other through Facebook. Once he reviewed my book and he offered to republish it. I'm incredibly grabul because he's given Sophie's story a much wider audience, which is what matters. At the end of the day. What happened shouldn't ever be forgotten, but what good came out of it also shouldn't ever be forgotten, because if a story is just doom and gloom, then it's not
a story. What's happened as a result is positive. It's making a difference, and it's important that people know that.
Absolutely. I have to say that any I had no idea of this story, so thanks to this new publishing, I'm aware of this story so again. And nobody can be up on all of the stories because there's so many that are competing, but a story like this really cuts through all of the other ordinary stories to be one of the more incredible cases and stories. And again, a little bit of a happy ending, if there can be such a thing after a disaster like this. But I want to thank you very much for coming on
Catherine Smith and talking about the Sophie Lancaster story. Thank you very much, and you have a great day.
Thank you, thank you, goodbye, goodbye.