THE MYSTERIOUS DEATH OF KURT COBAIN-Matthew Richer

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Cobain's death. There are many new details containing the mysterious death of Kirk Combain, including new transcripts of recorded telephone conversations with Courtney Love and others, as well as an updated list of persons of interest in the crime In this book, you will get a clear picture of why Kirk Cobain was killed and who is responsible for his death. The book also contains a compelling account of Tom Grant's struggles to blow the whistle on the botched investigation into

Cobain's death. Did Kurt Cobain really commit suicide or was he murdered? You won't be able to honestly answer that question until you read and hear about the mysterious death of Kurt Cobain. Suicide or murder? You decide with my special guest, Matthew Richer. Welcome to the program, and thank you for a Greenness interview to Richard, thank you for having me, Thank you very much, very very interesting story. Indeed, being a big music fan, this was an eye opener.

So let's first off, let's explain this is Grant, Tom Grant's story. But tell us how you came to be able to write this book before I ask you any of the questions regarding this story.

he couldn't vote that much time to this story. But you know, a few days back, Tom retired and he decided he was going to devote more time to this and he contacted me. He and I discussed it, and we decided to write a book together. And what we wanted, and certainly what I wanted, was I thought it would be more effective for Tom to just tell a story from his first person perspective, you know, instead of hearing a story secondhand, which is how it sounded in every

other treatment of the story. We wanted Tom to get to tell a story from his perspective. We wanted to take readers behind the scenes and portray the story from the investigator's perspective. And you also, and you might say, we also tell the story or tempt tell a story from the perspective of the main suspect called the Love. Tom spent a lot of time with Courtney and recorded, as you know, we can get into this most of the conversations he had with her during nineteen ninety four

and up until January nineteen ninety five. I think Tom has over thirty hours of record of conversations with her, so we know a lot about our thoughts and activities during nineteen ninety four, and we were able to depict her, her activities and her motives I think, pretty compilingly and pretty accurately in the book.

with her madam. And you know, after that appointment that morning, he went back to his office and it was Easter Sunday. This is April third, nineteen ninety four, and he just wasn't expecting any calls at all, but instead the phone rang and it was this woman answer the phone. She said, I'm Courtney Love and I need you to find out who's using my husband's stolen credit card. And he didn't know who Courtney Love was, and he didn't know who Kurt Cobain was, but he had an investigator, a young

investigator there who did know. And uh so he said, okay, you know, I'll be over in a couple of hours. And it turns out there Courtney Love was slipping through the yellow Pages that day trying to find frantically trying to find a private investigator, and she saw Tom Grant's ad just simply called him.

And he said yeah. And she said, if you leak any any of this depressed, I'll sue the f out of you. And so Tom said, old, you know, that was quite an impression. And then she when she sat down to talk to him, he said, okay, what's this about your husband's stolen credit card? And she sort of forgot what he was talking about, and he said, oh, no, that credit card wasn't stolen. I actually canceled it. And so that was you know, right away, she told Tom

a lie. The very basis for hiring her turned out to be complete lie, and Tom had a feeling that it wasn't going to be the last and so they

had this very unusual, strange encounter. There were all these people in the room that were clearly doing a lot of drugs, and got in a huge fight with her lead guitarist in the in the room, and then at some point during this meeting, she told Tom that Kurt Cobain was suicidal, and but then she said, you know, then she would switch back and say, oh, actually, you know, Kurt wants a divorce, and then she would say, oh, no,

he's suicidal. And she kept switching and vacillating back and forth between these two possibilities, and Tom left the room and said, okay, I'll you know, I'll try to find out where the credit card is ben used, will try to locate your husband, who's, you know, apparently missing. And as soon as he left the room got on the elevator, he said to his when his investigator, you know, something's wrong here. We're going to record every conversation we have

in this case. And that's what Tom did. He turned on his recorder and he recorded everything. One thing that Courtney Love did not know is that a private investigator, a good private investigator, actually all he has audio visual equipment on him at all times. They always because they have to document everything. So Tom documented everything very well and recorded it. She had no idea he was recording it, but it's a very well documented case.

And Courtney had those pin pupils and she had that white phone on my lips, and so did everyone else in the room. And at one point some woman walked by her wearing just a nightgown, and Courtney just looked at Tom and slapped around the behind and said, oh, that's my dealer. So they really weren't hiding the fact that they were all in this room doing drugs. Now, Courtney told the press, of course, that they were in this room, that Courtney was alone in the hotel suite

undergoing a physician assisted drug detox. But that was completely false. It was complete fast she was. She was in there with her friends and they were all doing drugs.

Lived Through. This was also coming out in the following week, but that album release was going to be accompanied by some very damaging public revelations. One of them was Kirk Cobain was going to divorce her. The biggest the biggest rocks down in the world was divorcing Curti Courting and Nirvana, the hottest band in the world, was breaking up, and

Courtney was a significant factor in the demise. In my suspicion, which I didn't really say too much in the book, but it is there, is that her fear was that she never said this exactly to Tom, but her fear probably was that word was going to get out eventually that Kurt had actually written and composed the album Lived Through. She has always denied that fact. She says that Kurt you know, was never in the studio or never had contributing to the album, but she later admitted that in fact,

he was in the studio. You can actually hear his voice singing in the background in several of the tracks. So remember, Courtney Love was nearly thirty years old in April nineteen ninety four. That's very old for an aspiring musician, especially a woman.

so they did not know each other even very long. So, you know, she married him right just as Nirvana was really taking off and started dating and then so they didn't really have a long relationship. But when they when they got married, their management made Kurt Cobain get a particular Kurt's manager, John Silver made Kirk get a pre natural agreement. Now, Courtney has always told people that it was actually her idea to get the prenatural agreement. That's

not true. Uh. And and then i know, the night before she got married, she met the music journalist Gina Arnold and she told Gina Arnold. Donold said, Courtney, what do you congratulations? What's what is Kirk going to get your for a wedding present? And Courtney looked at her and said, I'm gonna get my husband's ATM card. So that was pretty much their relationship as soon as they got married immediately. Kurt Cobain was not a very strong personality. He was, you know, kind of a he was, you know,

he was five seven, one hundred and twenty pounds. He was, you know, very unassertive. He didn't like confrontation. He could be pushed around very easily. He had a strong presence on stage, but not off stage. And Courtney has a very dominating personality, and she was able to push him around and take advantage of him quite easily. And almost as soon as they got married, she took over his finances completely. She was renting private jets, she was taking

limousines everywhere. Cony does not know how to drive, and really just running up his credit cards and buying Joel and buying all kinds of things, and he was really powerless to do anything about it.

out by becoming a rock and roll coopie. She went she inherited some money from her grandmother and she went over to Britain, to Liverpool and to New York City and she traveled a lot as a professional groupie, and she began, according to Courtney, she began performing you know, sex acts on different members of the band, even as a young teenager, in order to get the attention of the lead singer. And terrible as it was, Courtney did begin to meet people and get to know people in

the music business. And that's how she did it. She became a professional groupie. She was a very assertive, very outspoken groupie, but that's what she did and that was her version of climbing the ladder. So by the time you know, she got into her twenties, she targeted first a musician named roz resback in Portland, who was the head of a band called Peter Sheep, but you know, his career didn't take off. And then so she moved on to a man named James Morland who had a

band in Los Angeles, and she married him briefly. Band didn't take off either, And then she targeted Billy Corgan, which was a very success, you know, before he became famous. And that was a pretty smart move, pretty shrewd of her to target a man that talented. And she was with Billy Corgan for quite a while until she saw

Kirk Cobain perform live. And when she saw Kirk Bring and Nirvana perform live, she actually borrowed money from her attorney, Rosemary Carroll, and she took her flight to Chicago and she attended a Nirvana show and then she betted Kirk Cobain after the show, and she was pregnant within a couple of weeks. That's pretty much how she landed him.

going to record everything. I'm going to document everything because i know something is going on here. But I'm going to go to Seattle to search for Kirk Cobain because I'm a man's life is at stake, and so that's what he did. But he was when Tom, he only operates in the mode of an investigator, and that's I think what I tried to show in the book. So he the evidence as it appears as Tom encounters it

right up until Kirk Cobain dies. Now after after after kirk Cobain's death, Tom goes back to where he gets a phone call from Kurt Cobain and Courtney loves attorney Rosemary Carol. And it was Rosemary Carol who first told him Kirk Cobain was not suicidal and she believed ximant suicide. So when Tom got that confirmation from someone in there in a circle, someone who wasn't someone who was bright, and it wasn't a musician someone she was a very

shrewd woman who was Mary Carroll. And when Tom got back confirmations, he realized he started suspecting, Okay, maybe this wasn't a mother after all, or not a suicide.

couple guys that are nannies, you know, teenage nanny. So let's hear about Eric Erlander and Michael cally So introduce three or four of these characters that were there at the time Tom Grant briefly met them, and then as a private investigator says, I need to talk to this person, and this person produce some of those characters.

when she was a child. Courtney was just born a profoundly disturbed person. She had, you know, just serious mental problems, and she had serious problems with the violence. She was in a reform school as a teenager, she often had to be put in restraints, she turned tricks, she stripped none of what she had to do, but she that was just a darkness about her since she was born, and the mother seemed powerless to do anything about it.

Now as a sociopath, one quality of that sociopaths have excel at manipulating other people to do pretty much whatever they want to do. And Courtney seems to attract people, men and women, I would say, men especially who are sort of weak willed men that she can pretty much manipulate into doing whatever she wants. Now, her guitarist, Eric Arlindson, he was the guitarist in the band. He took out

an ad for a band. Uh took on her ad in a classified newspaper Los Angeles, asking if anyone wanted to put together a band, and Courtney responded and but when she responded to the other she was wanted. The rest is history, but at the history she really rewrote to fit her own agenda. Coney quickly made the band her own, and Eric Arlinson was sort of her to this day, sort of her her, her lead gopher, so to speak, and he has always done all kinds of

unsavory tasks for her. So he beats people up for her, women, especially he She described it as if I have a blue my nose. She told interviewer Eric would go and let and grab the kleenex. And so that's one person we describe him as as a person of interest in the book. And then there's Callie de Witt. Kellie de Witt was a teenager who dropped out of high school and began working as in as a roadie for a

whole when he was about sixteen years old. He actually became and having sexual relationship with Courtney at that time, and he pretty much did whatever Courtney wanted to do. Courtney wanted to go get drugs, he would go get drugs. Courney wanted to do this, what he wanted to do that, he would simply go and do it. She seemed to attract these people into her life and now or these

people seem to be attracted to her now. After she married Kirk o Bain, she hired Michael Kelly do it they call him Kelly because he was from Calabasas, California. She hired Calli to be her nanny, even though the Kelly was a teenager and he was a serious heroin addict at the time. That's what she did because she wanted someone in the in the home that she could control completely and who would do whatever she wanted to do. Now,

what Calli got for that was he got heroin. She used Kurt's money to maintain his habit, and she also did that with another There's another fellow named Renee Navarette that we mentioned in the book. He was also a heroin addict and he was also one of the male full time nannies that Courtney and Floyd, and he was best friends with Cali Duit and Courtney also paid for

his heroines. So that was with Kurt's money. So that was two male nannies were both addicted to heroin and they needed Kurt Cobain's money in order to in order to maintain their fix, maintain their habit. Now a curtain Courtney divorce those guys. Courtney's not going to have so much money anymore. Those guys where they're going to get their heroin? So that was that's we think one of the one of the motives you will in this story.

One of the possible motives is simply the fact that heroin addicts need to maintain their their heroin connection, and Courtney held up that the power that was a power Courtney had that she held over us.

is a heroin addict. But also what I found was fascinating is again you're not saying an outright conspiracy or people knew what was going to happen, but the very interesting meeting that you chronicle of the music execs and you talk about Courtney Love's again super hypocritical attempts at intervention and the ones involving the music execs, and really what you outline is that it seems more about the nine hundred Thou tell about how much money was involved

with the Lollapalooza and what at least didn't want to do, at.

were there. And it was at Kurt's house in Seattle. Now at that meeting, no one after Kurt's death, everyone was saying he was desperately suicidal. But before Kurt's death, no one was saying that he was suicidal. Now at this meeting, the way Courtney has trade this meeting and suppresses that she wanted Kurt to go into rehab to kick drugs, but also that this was this intervention was for the purpose of saving Kirk Cobain's life. But that

is not true. No one ever mentioned suicide at this meeting. Kurt was going to hurt himself. Kurt was going to commit suicide. That wasn't true. They wanted to go to rehab so he could clean himself up, so that he could meet, so he could meet the obligation of that contract. And go on tour. Everyone at that meeting, everyone at that intervention had a financial incentive in Kurt Cobain performing that summer, but he didn't want to perform, so he

just didn't want to be in Nirvana anymore. His plan was to lead Nirvana and just be a studio musician pretty much on his own and do some of his own projects. He didn't want to tour anymore. He didn't really want the celebrity side of music anymore. But there's no money in that. For everyone else, they had a financial incentive, and so at that intervention it was more like Kurt, clean up your act and go on the tour and go into go into rehab. Now, just after

that intervention, Kurt went out and bought a shotgun. And the shotgun that he purchased was a light load shotgun. It was the kind of shotgun that you would use for home defense. It can, you know, you can shoot the burglar, but the shotgun show wouldn't penetrate the walls or home, so you wouldn't accidentally kill someone in the next room. Something it was is that kind of weapon if they would be a strange weapon to purchase for

the purpose of committing suicide. So what Kurt did was he so he buys this shotgun, he leaves at his house, and then he buis down to Los Angeles to attend drug rehab. Now what did she once he back at the hotel room at the Peninsula Hotel Courtney loved a few days later after she had hired the day after she had hired Tom Grant, she had filed a missing person's report with the Seattle Police Department. But when she filed this report, she and first of all, she filed

it under the name of Kirk Cobain's mother. His name is Wendy O'Connor. Kurt didn't have much of a relationship with his mother. His mother was semi strange. But Courtney filed this missing report her mother in law's name. And she did that because she wanted to word the report. And the report said Kurt ran away from a California drug facility, purchased a shotgun, and maybe suicidal. Now, now I described this in the book as framing the narrative.

Courtney wanted to frame the narrative in her favor, and that's why she worded this report this way. Now, of course, Kirk Cobain did not run away from the California's drug facility. In fact, he was in a volunt He checked into a voluntary facility, he was free to leave many times he wanted to. And when he left on Friday, April first, he simply walked out the front door and caught a cab to the airport. Now, but he purchased a shotgun

before he went to drug rehead. Uh and so, but that's not what the police thought when they saw this police report. When they saw this missing person report, a missing personal report that was quickly released to the media, they simply assumed it was true and never questioned it. Kirk Cobain ran away from a drug facility, pursed the shotgun, and maybe suicidal. After all, his own mother said, so,

so why would you why would you question it? So when the when Kirk Cobain was his body was found on April eighth, the police pretty much closed the case based on that initial report. They closed the case that morning. They simply arrived at the scene and simply signed it off as a suicide. And if you look at their police reports, which we quote in the book, in which you can find some of them online, you can see that they simply showed up, they said, and they closed

it that morning and they signed the death in. The medical examiner perform the autosity that night and signed the death certificate the following days the suicide a Saturday, he signed. The medical examiners signed it uh the death suicide. Then. Now the toxicology results weren't available for three or four weeks, but they still signed it off as a suicide. And within six days of the body six days after the body was discovered, the body was cremated. And once the

body is cremated, of course, the case is closed. The same day the body is cremated. However, a report comes out in the Scatto Post Intelligencer that Shallow police later admitted was true that the drug test down on kirk Cobain's blood revealed that he had one point five to two milligrams of heroin per leader in his system. Now

that is three times the lethal dose of heroin. So the question is, how could kirk Cobain have picked up a shotgun, insert it into his mouth and pulled the trigger after injecting a three times a lethal dose of heroin. It's simply impossible. And then we spend a good deal of describing this in the book The Nature of Heroin Overdose and the Nature of Heroin Use. Actually, now most people when they when you when an addict in Jack's heroin and then Jack's too much heroin news system, they're

found with the needle still in the arm. It enters the bloodstream in the brain very quickly and it stops breathe very quickly. And that's why addicts are found with the needle still in the arms. When you overdose, it's almost instant. So Kirk Cobaine would have lost unconsciousness within seconds, so it would have been impossible for him to pick

up that chotgun and started into his mouth. In fact, we know that the safety tips on the syringes he was injected twice, once in each arm, and the safety tips on the syringes were actually reapplied after the injection. They were the syringes were placed back into the drug kit.

The drug kit was placed far from the body, and his sleeves were actually rolled down and there was very little His face was actually perfectly intact, almost perfectly intact, So it's virtually impossible for him to have picked up picked up that shotgun after taking triple deadly dose of heroin, he would have been unconscious within seconds after that injection. And also there's something about the experience of heroin, I

mean heroin. Within a few seconds of taking heroin, then about ten seconds, the heroin user experience is what is called the rush, which is an intense euphoric experience that lasts for several minutes if you are addicted to heroin. Heroin is a euphoric drug, and so if you are addicted to heroin, you are addicted to this rush, this euphoric experience. So how many deny themselves this rush, this euphoric experience just before it's it's about to take place.

It's inconceivable, and it's virtually never happened before. So you couldn't take a euphoric drug and then stick a gun into your mouth and pull the trigger. Why not? Wait? Why not wait? How could you deny this experience before it takes place? Attics are really not We never found it. We couldn't find a single example of anyone being able to function with this much heroin the system at all. And we couldn't find a single example of anyone committing suicide after in checking heroin. Not one.

book about a fake suicide attamp. Meanwhile, he's in the backyard with his hands in his pocket and they see em embarrassed when Pholps came, so explains why he would have a gun. So it doesn't lend any credence that suddenly he got the gun for any specific reason other than the kind of like guns and you didn't have anymore anymore, and so he bought this. Not really again,

not very effective for a suicide. What was the other, as you chronicle in the book, what were the other kind of very weak things that were at the crime scene that the police later cited as evidence of that he must have committed suicide.

why he was breaking up the vana. It doesn't mention his wife and child really at all, except in the third person. It's all about music. It's written in red pen on the back of an iHeart menu and probably as he was sitting in a boost getting something to eat. And the only thing about the note that sounds suicidal are the final four lines. And the final four lines, uh say please keep going court me for Francis, for her life, which will be so much happier without me.

He signs the note Kurt Cobain is full name. That's something most people will do. Now if you read that, If you look at the final four nine lines, you'll see that the it's and it's pretty obvious that they're

written in a different hand. The writing is even the letters are even thinner than in the body of the note, and the handwriting is clearly not the same hand and we've you know, other other uh some handwriting and also looked at it and concluded that that the letter is not written, that the PostScript and the main body of letter were written by two different people. Now getting back to the and also getting back to your question, one thing that the detectives at the crime scene did not

realize was that kirk Obain's shotgun. When the shotgun was found, it was loaded to full capacity, which would be unusual for someone commits suicide. You only need one shotgun shelf in suicide. But it was fully loaded. But the shotgun shell was lying inverted across his chest. The exit chamber on the shotgun shell was facing kirk Cobain's bright Whoever the spent shotguns shell kirk Cobain's left, It should have ejected to the right the way it was found, but

it was found to his left. Now, this was something, This is a major red flag, but the detectives overlooked it. And I think the reason they've overlooked it is because they arrived at the crime scene under the assumption that it was a suicide. And just when you arrive at the crime scene under that assumption, you know, you simply you're you're you're blind to evidence like that. You know, police departments don't really have to prove suicide. You have

to prove murder. You have to prove murder murder in court, and you have to prove murder to the public through a district attorney, to a victim's family. But suicide you don't really have to prove it. If a police officer, police investigators rule a case of suicide, they can simply scribble suicide under cause of death and move on. That's

the funny thing about it. So they simply were blind to a lot of this evidence at the scene, and they announced spokesman actually stood outside the crime scene a few hours after Kurt Cobain's body was discovered and announced that it was a suicide and that there was a suicide note founded scene. So you know, it's just it's just it's just the mynd bottle.

players involved. So a patrol officer, he might be twenty twenty one years old, say he will arrive at the crime scene and say, gee, I think there might be foul play or no, it looks like it looks like an accidental death or it looks like a Suicide's me. That's very common in a lot of jurisdictions that they don't have homicide investigators respond to every unattended death at the same time, it's not considered it's common, but it's not considered proper. But that's the way it's done in

Seattle to this day. It's still in a Seattle police manual.

went to the crime scene and fingerprinted the body. And Nicholas Hotsone was actually a good friends with Courtney Love. Seattle is a very small town. He was a big fan of the Seattle music scene, and he was involved in the promotion of rock concerts and grunge rock concerts a lot, and he should have that day. I don't believe that, you know, Nicholas Totson was in a sense in on it or anything like that. There's no real

evidence of that. But he was a young guy. He showed up at the crime scene and that the homicide detectives had already determined that this was a suicide, and he was very inexperienced, probably a little styleshruk. He did not really know Kirt Cobain, but he did know claudey Love and he showed up that day and he performed the autopsy that night and wrote suicide on the cause of death the next day. But yeah, he's thirty years old and not yet board certified medical examiner. Really a

disgrace that this person was allowed to do that. So a few days later, when the drug test result came in and they showed that Kirk Cobain had you know, three times police for glos of heroin in his system, this fellow probably didn't even understand the significance of the evidence. He was that inexperienced.

There was one other thing too that there was the talk of that well, he could have he killed himself because he was locked. The doors were locked, So tell us about and the doors were locked and the yes, the end, the chair that was jammed up against the handle door handle.

on the doors and that anyone could open it up. Uh, you know, So it was like a basically a bathroom door lock. And he found the stool and the stool was a really tiny little stool, and Tom took pictures of the stool and there's no way you put it

up against any door and and block anything. Now, there's no mention of this stool in the initial police reports, but there was a extra page added on at the end of the police report where the responding officer claims that there was a stool that that was pressed up

against the greenhouse doors that prevented access. Now, that was added on after the fact, we believe because the police department realized that the that the reports did not reflect the story that was out there in the press, meaning that kirk Obain must have been alone inside the room when he died. Now, we spoke to and I spoke to him personally, the fireman who forced entry into the

greenhouse that day. His name was Lieutenant John Fisken. He's still on the fire department, and he told us unequivocally that there was no stool against that door. They were able to push those doors open very easily, so the Seattle Police Department did that. They added that little detail onto their reports because that's what often happens with with

the police department. Tom said, you know, when he was in the La Count of Sheriff's apartment, that happened all the time, that the supervisors will come up to you and say, oh, you know, you've got to You've got to add something in here. You know this, this isn't good enough. You have to put in a detail about this of that. And commanders do this all the time to to police officers, uh, when they go over their

reports to them. Someone probably went up to this, uh to this uh the first responding officer, mainly an officer named von Lewandowski, and told him you have to add a little item about the stool because, uh, you know, we have to cover ourselves here. It's very obvious when you read the reports that threw that in there. So they were doing damage control the Seattle Police Department very

early after the body was discovered. They realized, i think probably within a week of the of the body being discovered, that they had botched the investigation, and they started doing damage control and they've been doing it ever since.

Now at the same time, part of this incredible again you say sociopathic character is Courtney Love is that she is making sure that she is going to capitalize on this no matter what. Again, you talk about this album coming out on April twelfth of that year. So how does she manipulate some of the biggest journalists in the music business and what does she tell them in that goal of manipulation.

And I described this in the book. You have to be impressed about how very good, how skilled she is at manipulating the press. Now, the press that she manipulates is pretty much the rock and roll entertainment press. And as I say you know right away in the introduction, a lot of rock and roll journalists. These are not the best writers, and these are not the smartest guys, a lot of them. So they're very it's very easily

to to manipulate them. And she does this by charming them, by calling them constantly on the phone, and she makes she has a knack for making people feel like they're very important, like they're her closest friends.

on air. Now, the thing about the thing about Cony is is, you know, suicide is a very A suicide is a very difficult. A genuine suicide is a very experience. If your spouse commits suicide, you know, those people go through a living hell. But Coney was on the phone constantly after his death, talking to everyone, and she called you know, she wasn't expressing any sadness at all to Tom Grant or to others after Kirk Cobain's death, unless

the course of cameras were rolling. But she called Kurt Loader the day after Kirk Cobain died and told him, you know, uh, you know, several fed him several false facts that got out there. One of them she described the suicide note, and she used this quote from the note. She quotes the note as saying, it's no fun for me anymore. I can't live this life. Well, that line doesn't appear anywhere in the suicide in the in the

LT suicide note. And she also told Kurt Louder that the damage to kirk cobain was head was so severe that he had to be identified with fingerprints. That's false. The damage to his face was minimal, and the reason he had to be identified with fingerprints is that because it's standard procedure to fingerprints the deceased, regardless of the condition of body. And she also told him that kirk Cobain wrote a suicide that was addressed to her. That

is also not true. That suicide note was non addressed to her. So she does this the day after the body is discovered, but Loder gets on air and describes the conversation in detail, and those facts were repeated in the media all over the world. Now you have to realize that in nineteen ninety four the medium moved much more. It's easy to banish the mainstream media, but in nineteen ninety four the medium much moved very slowly. There wasn't really any online news in nineteen ninety four, not much

of it online. You know, stories didn't break online in nineteen ninety four. You had to wait for the radio, the evening news, or the morning paper. And so it was in a way much more, much easier for her to manipulate the press back then, and the mainstream media was a little bit out of their element reporting on Kirk Coleane's death because it was a different world to them. It was a shadowy world of you know, heroin and grunge.

It was something they didn't understand, and they often deferred to the music media, the rock and roll press, to describe the crime of Kurt Cobain's death. They simply deferred to them in the music media. They were out of their elements. They didn't understand anything about stage suicides or any possibility of such a thing. That the Seattle police day was a suicide. They're going to believe it's a suicide and they're not going to question it. It wasn't

like today. With an online media, stories can be updated, there's a lot more competition, there's a lot more alternative points of view. Stories can be updated online and constantly, and I don't think she could have gotten away with it today, but in nineteen eighty four she was able to manipulate the press, you know, very skillfully and very shrewdly.

We describe that in the book, how skilled she is doing that, and you know it's a it was a terrible thing, but in a way at the same time, it's highly impressive.

his loyalty is just to the truth, that's all. So when does he have this tell us about how you describe the conversation he has with Courtney and he's kind of surprised at her reaction and what goes on after he tells her what his purpose is and what he's going to do. Tell us about that.

angry over something like that. He also helped put an article in the Seattle Times that caused uh that that that shed some light on Kirk Cobain's final days and in questioned the police investigation. And Courtney knew that the report of the Tail Times. Deeff Wilson got a lot of information from Tom, but she didn't ask him about it. So when Tom sends her this letter, this, uh, this letter, that must have scared the hell out of her. What

she did instead was she didn't call him angrily. She instead she called him and I transcribed this conversation in the book, and she tried to charm him, and she talked to him like they were best friends. Now, this is one of Corney's routinees. She puts on a charm routine for people that when she wants something from them, she tries to charm them, and she stops charming him. She's talking to him like they were buddies, and then

she hires him to do more work. I kind of imagine someone investigating effectively investigating murder and hiring them to do more work. So let me put it this way, It's very unusual for a private investigator to investigate his client for murder and to continue openly investigate his client for murder and continue to work for that client on other matters. I've simply never heard. It's just a very bizarre situation. I've never heard of anything like that in

my life. So it's, you know, it's kind of funny. And then when one of the things that Courtney had tom too, was of course, to surveil her new boyfriend.

She had moved on very quickly to Trent Reznor, the lead singer of nine inch Nails, and Courtney was obsessed with the fact that Trent might be cheating on her, so Tom began to surveil Trent Resnor as he went on tour, and Courtney would call him and tell him, you know, where Trent was going to be staying, and Trent was hanging out with and and and that's what that's what Tom. A lot of what Tom was doing

for during the summer of nineteen ninety four. Now that, of course, was probably not smart of Courtney, because you know, it only made Tom more suspicious because if you're really a grieving widow and a grieving suicide survivor, what are you doing running off with a new rock star? As I said, how you know, genuinely grieving widows would behave But yeah, very strange, It's very strange. But it went on as you can hear this now, you can see this in the recordings that I transcribed, and if you

get the chance to hear them. As a private investigator, you're not in a position to really interrogate clients because in theory, the client is free to fire you whenever they want, so you really can't ask too many aggressive questions. That's just not what private investigators can do. But Tom started getting more aggressive with Coney, and you can hear that in their conversations, and Courtney become much more fearful, and she started trying to get Tom to sign this

confidentiality and Tom refused to sign it. And then after a while she started hiring other attorneys and other private investigators and trying to convince Tom to work with them. And what she was really trying to do was trying was figure out what Tom had learned and what Tom was up to. So she was really sweating as summer turned into fall in nineteen ninety four and Tom was

asking Courtney for a to submit to a polygraph. He wanted Callie DeWitt to submit to a polygraph because Calli was actually at the house when Kirk Cobin died and you know that. And she wanted a copy of the autopsy report. In state of Washington, autopsy reports are considered private medical records and in most jurisdictions they were open to the public, but not in the state of Washington.

So he wanted the autopsy report. Now, Courtney promised many times that she would deliver on all of these things, but she never did and hesitant to this day, but she could gradually end one of the One of the turning point for Tom was when Courtney gave an interview to David Frick of Rolling Stone, and in that interview she describes a second suicide note, alleged suicide note. Well, actually,

I'm sorry, this is a third suicide note. There's a third suicide note because suicide note in Rome Kurt allegedly wrote in Rome, Italy the month before he died. But she also said that Kurt left her a second suicide note at his home when he died. Now, Courtney had never told anyone about this other suicide note. She'd never told Tom, she'd never told it the police, no one had ever seen it before. And when Tom found out

about this note. You can hear this in the recording, she claimed that the note had been left underneath her pillows. As we describe in the book, Tom actually inspected her bed very thoroughly and picked up the mattress and pulled it over and was looking for drugs, and there was

no note underneath Coty's pillows. And the reason she made up this other note is because she didn't like the way the interviewer from Rolling Stone was asking questions about the veracity of the legitimacy of the suicide note, so she switched the subject and decides talking about this other note that no one else had seen. So when Tom found out that she had lied about this, he realized that that was a breaking point, and I described this in the book. He realized that he has to come

out and speak publicly. And that was one of the parts of the book that's never been really discussed before. The Tom's never discussed his efforts to his struggle to try to blow the whistle on this case, which was very hot for him, but we described it in great detail in the book.

was a guy named Floyd Stagger and Sagian. Cameron was known as Mister Homicide, not because he was a great homicide investigator, but because he actually ran the department like it was his own kingdom and is on the scene that day, and Cameron was one who ordered the case closed the Deave Kirk Cobaine's body was discovered. One of

the reasons he probably did that. It was the attitude of Cameron, and probably of others there was that they didn't like these Seattle musicians with their grunge dress and their lifestyle. A lot of people in the political establishment in Seattle, in the government establishment, it didn't like this, this new side of Seattle, and they had no sympathy

for the for them. We even quote one of the one of the private investigators in Seattle telling Tom Grant, what do you care about all these people, Tom, They are just a bunch of junkies. That was kind of the attitude that Cameron had now Cameron. When Tom went to confront Cameron, Tom didn't know at the time that

the body had just been cremated. Cameron certainly knew this, and he brought with Cameron, and he brought Hobby Levin, who's a big celebrity news figure in the United States now, and he confronted Cameron, showing Cameron the suicide note and also showing him of the credit card records. Now, the credit card records for Kirk Cobain. Kirk Cobain's credit card had been used repeatedly the last week of his life,

right up until the day the body was discovered. Now we believe Kirk Cobain was probably killed on the third or the fourth, late in the evening April third, or early in the morning Monday, April fourth, But someone was trying to use Kirk Cobain's credit card all the way up to April eighth. Someone tried to use his credit card twice the morning his body was discovered. Who had

that credit card? Tom had all the you know, the proof from the bank of all these attempted transactions, and he showed them to shot and Cameron, and someone got this guy's credit card well before the body was discovered, and that's pretty serious proof of wrongdoing. And Cameron just looked at Tom and said, you know, nothing he was shown me is proof of anything but suicide. And he just wouldn't hear it. You know, he wasn't going to have this private investigator from Beverly Hills come in here

and tell him how to do his job. But what Cameron also did is afterwards, after Tom left the office that day, and this is in the police footballs, he called Courtney Love and arranged for detectives to go to house the following Monday, and then he started ordering some more investigation of the of the death, even though the body was already creamy, even though the case is already closed. He did it really just for to cover his cover

his butt, not to actually investigate the crime. So, for example, the shotgun and was tested for fingerprints, but not until twenty eight days after the body was discovered. Well you know, no legible friends were found on the shotgun, suggesting that

it was wiped down. It's a very large shotgun, with forty six inch long shotgun that's nearly four feet long, and they should have been prints all over it, given that it was handled by three people before before Kirk Cobaine's death, Kurt, his best friend Dylan Cownson, and the gun sales on but no prints were found on that shotgun, and that suggestedive and wiped down. But it wasn't even tested for almost a month after the body was started, so they did all. The suicide note wasn't analyzed until

two weeks after the body was discovered. So a lot of these things Cameron started doing after the case was closed and after the body had been cremated. Now a few years later Cameron was actually fired for well forced to retire for doctoring a crime scene in an unrelated case,

and we described this at like from the book. He actually took one of his detectives actually stole elevendred dollars from a crime scene, and Cameron, rather than arresting this detective, actually took him back to the crime scene and allowed this detective to return the money to the crime scene and then and then they went in to rediscover the evidence. And so it's basically he was a betting a felony.

So the question is, since Cameron doctored this in nineteen ninety seven, he had doctored this crime scene where a theft occurred by one of his own detectives, which is a very serious crime. One has to wonder how many other crime scenes he has manipulated. Now, there was a note Kirt Cobain. Backtracking bit here. We believe the first attempt on Kirt Cobain's life was in Rome, Italy. Uh, you know, about a month before his own death, his

actual death. Now, in Rome, Kirk Cobain had he was on tour with Nirvana and in Rome he had told Fortney Love that he wanted, uh, he wanted a divorce and he was adamant about it. Now he wrote, he handed her a three page note that he wrote on the hotel stationery and the next day he was rushed to the hospital. We're having overdosed on a mixture of champagne and roe hypno. Now the rote hypno belonged to Courtney.

Courtney has long had a prescription for roe hypno. Roe Hypno is known as the date Great drug in the United States. It's the sort of white dime sized pill that can dissolve in liquid very quickly, and it's odorless and tasteless and induces and consciousness or right away, and when taking a combination with alcohol, it's deadly. Now, Kirk

Cobain didn't drink that much. We believe that this rom overdose was the first, in fact, the first attempt on his life, and we described this book and when when he finally but Kirk Cobain did not die. He was in a coma for twenty hours and then he came back to and then he recovered and flew back to the United States. But he still intended to the wolves, Courtney,

and it's still intended to leave Nevada. Now, when Cony came back to after his death, Courtney used this note that Kirk her in Rome as a comparison writing sample. Gave that to the Seattle Police Department so they can compare it to the suicide note found at the crime scene in Seattle. Now, what Cameron did was Sondra Cameron took that crime scene in June of nineteen ninety four. He took that Rome note out of the evidence hawker. He drove to Courtney's house, and we have a recording

of Courtney describing this incident by in detail. He returned that note to Courtney and told her to destroy it immediately. This note will not do you or your family any good. So now we have a lead suicide detective returning the note to Courney. Well, certainly because he believes it's evidence that Kirko Man did not commit suicide and telling her to destroy evidence. So this guy did a lot of

this sort of thing. And the police chief at the time, Norm Stamper, you know, had a very low opinion of told us he had a very low opinion of Cameron, and he tried to fire him, but he just retired very quickly after the scandal happened with his detective and

and died a few years later. So whatever you know, he knew about the death of Kurt Cobain, he took to But at least we know for a fact that Thoma originally alleged that the the the detective in charge of the Kobain case, was a corrupt cop, and that has been proven to be true. You know, he resigned, He was forced to resign in disgrace. You know, a one dirty cop can do a lot of damage, letting a.

Guilty people, you know, they they changed their story. Their story changes a little bit over the time. And Coney has changed her story in Rome a few times now. According to Courtney, she told Spinning and Rolling Stone magazine, she got up at about between three and four in the morning, found Kurt. You know, in one version, Kurt's lying on the edge of the bed with blood counting out's Norshall. And another version he's lying on the floor.

But she found Humber about three in the morning, according to her, and he was, you know, with the with a suicide note and you know, in a coma. But unfortunately for Courtney, you know this, the ambulance didn't arrive till six thirty. Uh and so why was about a three hour delay and calling the ambulance. So why the three hour delay and what happened during the three hour delay? And this goes back to the problem, to the question of media manipulation, and this I think is the most

interesting parts of the book. David Geffen, probably the biggest figure in the in the in the corporate music industry. The head of Geffen Records, claims that Courtney Love called him from Rome and told him that Kurt Cobaine had finally committed suicide. His exact words were, well, if you know, if someone's determined to commit suicide, you know there's nothing you can do. That's what he told Ron his man

Danny Goldberg. Danny Goldberg claims that later claimed that Courtney Love did not actually call David Geffen, that it was actually a prank phone call, that someone pretending to be courtey called David Geffen at his office and told him that it's just a very suspicious alibi there. David Geffen is not an easy guy to get on the telephone. I mean, I don't think I could pick up my phone tomorrow and get David Geffen on the phone. No, I don't think I could do it.

congenually tangenitally suicidal. He finally of his own life, that's what. But apparently, you know, the official, their official alibi is now it was a hoax. It was an impostor, it was a prank phone call. But we could never figure out who did it. And it's just really, really that's a quite a stretch. But at any rate, her Cobain did not die in Rome, and when he came back to Seattle, he had not you know, he had not changed his mind. He was still going to divorce Courtney.

It wasn't. Of course, it's not easy to get a divorce when when two people have a child together. It's not like you can just you know, walk out the door, but there was a child and they did, you know, have to figure out what to uh, what to do about it and how to handle it. So it's not, you know, an easy break to make, but he was

certainly determined to make the break. Now. When he came back to Seattle, he called his Courtney was afraid that he was going to leave, and if he had left Seattle and divorced her, she was going to be in trouble. She could not let kirkba and leave Seattle because he was going to leave with all of his money and

her career would fall apart. So one thing that she did was when he left for a few days, she was afraid that he was going to be gone for good, so she canceled all his credit cards and his ATM card. He was in a motel in Seattle, and when she did this, he called Rosemary Carol, his attorney in Los Angeles, and told her that he wanted Rosemary to draft him a new will and he wanted Courtney cut out of it. When he returned to the house, he told Courtney about

what he had done. Courtney flew into her raid she was not going to be in kurtswill. It really drove her over the edge. And right after that there was what I call the March eighteenth incident. And this is one of my personally one of my favorite sessions of the book. Now, what we again, what we did in the book was we contacted a lot of several people from the Seattle Pleice Bottom and spoke to them on

the record. And now in March eighteenth, Courtney Love dial nine one one and this was widely reported in the press. After Kirk Cowaine sat and told uh the nine to one one operator that Kirk Cobain had locked himself in a room and had a gun and had tratened to kill himself. Now, when people stage a murder to look like a suicide, they often planned a suicide trail both before and after the murder. Here she she planned this story that Kirk Cobain had locked himself in a room

and was going to a suicide. So the arresting office, the arriving officer named Officer ed Everett Edwards, and I spoke to him personally, and he he gets to the scene and Courtney is standing, you know, in front on the front of the house, and she's screaming wildly at him, and she says, you know, he's got a gun, he's gonna kill himself, and she's and he said, okay, well we can't enter the house until you know other units arrive.

And she screams at him, and she says, well, if you're not going to do anything, just get the f out of hair. She screams at him, and then but other units ride within minutes, and so some people go through. Some officers go through the front door. Officer Edwards in his partner, they go and run around to the back door, and when they get to the back door, they swat her cobain and he doesn't have a gun. He's not

locked inside his room. He's standing in the backyard with his hands in his pockets, rolling his eyes deeply embarrassing. Oh my god, there goes Courtney Love. There goes Courtney and Toland on the cops again. So I approach. Officer Edward approaches to the police car. They sit in the back of the car. K Kurt says, now, we just had a big fight. I locked myself in a room in a while to get away from where I didn't have a gun, and I never said I was going

to hurt myself. Now this is in the police report. When officers interviewed Courtney, she actually admitted to them that she made the entire story up. She never saw him with a gun and never heard him say anything of the kind. Now, this is actually something that's new in the book. And after k Cobaine's death, the press reported on this incident as evidence of Kurt being suicidal and Courtney loved desperately trying to save his life. They Courtney's version of the incident, not to say I had a

police deparminence version or officer Edward's version. This is this is something that's new that's never been reported before the book. So Courtney Love's version that he attempted suicide in March eighteenth was actually featured in a cover story. It was reported the day after Churt's body was discovered, and Wiley reported in the press and even in a cover story

in Newsweek. There was Newsweek this cover story called the Mystery of Suicide, and it described this March eighteenth incident as a suicide attempt and also a successful attempt by Courtney to save her husband's life. Completely false. We talked to the officer on the scene and he funks the

entire the entire tale that she's told. But again, Courtney is very good at manipulating the press, and she did it then, and she got her story out there first, and that's what everyone believed, but it's not true.

just quickly. The thing that probably people haven't heard at all is at near the end of your book when you talk about actually some police officers coming forward and disagreeing with the official Seattle Police Department's assessment of it, and namely an officer Wilson, and hopefully I don't mispronounce

his detective Sieninski. So tell us a little bit, just a little bit about that, just as a little tease for people to realize that if they go to the book, they're going to be reading this kind of further evidence, stuff that they've never heard before to refute the official claim of suicide.

this case. The immediate the Seattle police sort of pretended that, you know, they were going to look at the evidence again with a fresh set of eyes. But detective Zinsky was nothing of the kind. And all he really did was he he opened up a case file, and he developed some film that hadn't been developed yet, and then he he just reiterated the official star that Kirk Cobain

had committed suicide. The thing about Sky's he got on, he got on television and he actually he admitted that that, uh, the city of Seattle had never seen a level of heroin in uh in in in someone's uh in a deceased body as high as Kirk obins. They they had never seen it in in their lives. And he made several statements that they're like that. That that undermined the

case for homicide. It was a very bizarre interview. Uh he really you know, shot himself in the foot in the in the department, in the foot for that matter. And then he did a ritten report follow up and he's trying to explain why the shotgun shell was found on the opposite side of the body where it should

have been found. And he claimed he came up with this theory that the shotgun uh pivoted or rotated after being fired, so uh, you know it would sort of flip over and and ejected shotgun show and then flip back up like a one degrees. It's it didn't make any sense. So the I didn't understand what how the shotgun could pivot. I've buyed shotguns before and they do

not pivot from there being fired and or rotate. And so I called the police officer who gave this analysis, Officer Wilson, myself an officer Kurt Wilson, and I said, you know you gave this, You performed this analysis of the shotgun for Textorsznisky. Can you tell me exactly what you meant by this? And he said, oh, you know,

actually I didn't mean that the shotgun pivoted. I just meant, you know, the shotgun was probably just ejected into directly into his mouth and then the force of gravity would have had it rotated one hundred and eighty degrees after it was fired. But he told me, he admitted to me, I just looked at a couple of photograph and I just you know, that was your speculation on my product. So that was pretty much the extent of the ballistics

they did of the re examination of the evidence. It was a very cursory, quick re examined of the examiner re examination of the evidence. Uh. And the Seattle Police admitted, fully admitted that today. So you know, it's it's they're they're trying to make it look like they uh you know, went over it with a fine toothcomb, but not at all. So this is a case that is uh still haunting them. We have made a little headway with the Seattle Police

Department lately. I can't get too much into that. We have had a few part more positive signs from them recently, uh, some members of the Seattle Police Department. So I'm optimistic about that. I think they know that this this story is not going to go away. So I'm actually more recently and I'm actually encouraged to hear from the Bastie.

a tenuous connection between all of these things. You provide all of the information, and it's very interesting and exciting story to see all the major figures in this, like you say, David Geffen and Harvey Levin, and so it's just chock full of all the kinds of people that you read about, and then it's just crazy connection that they have with Courtney Love. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about the mysterious

death of Kurt Cobain suicide or murder. If people are more interested, there's there a Facebook page and a website. Tell us a little bit about how people might look into this further.