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The murder that still haunts a Pennsylvania city. On the morning of August eighth, nineteen seventy five, sixteen year old Debbie Gamma disappeared after leaving her home in Eerie, Pennsylvania, only to be found dead days later in a creek nearly thirty.
Miles from her home. What followed was an.
Investigation that lacks suspects or even evidence pointing to a viable suspect. That is, until a private investigator named Dan Barber uncovered evidence leading directly to her killer, her English teacher, Raymond Payne. After Payne's arrest, Debbie's mother, Betty Ferguson embarked on her own quest for justice, which unexpectedly led her on an incredible journey of forgiveness, utilizing newspaper articles, court documents,
and investigative files. Never before revealed. Justin Dombrowski presents a gripping narrative of one investigator's pursuit of justice and a mother's search for the truth. The book that we're featuring this evening is The Murder of Debbie Gamma, Justice and Abolition in Erie, with my special guest author, Justin Dombrowski. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Justin Dombrowski. Thank you very much for having me Dan, thank you so much, and welcome back to
the program. And congratulations on this new book, The Murder of Debbie Gamma.
Thank you very much. I do appreciate it. It's nice to speak with you again.
Let's talk about the setting. Just set the stage here. The setting for this story are the beaches of presqu Isle State Park in Erie, Pennsylvania. You say, the sandy beaches flanking the shore of Lake Erie are a sought after tourist destination. Let's talking about Friday morning, August eighth, nineteen seventy five, sixteen year old Deborah Lynn Gamma. Take us back to Erie, Pennsylvania and August eighth, nineteen seventy.
Five, curs you know, as you sayd the book begins, we're in the mid seventies. You know, this is coming after, you know, the nineteen sixties. You know, the city of Erie and especially cities along the Great Lakes are experiencing somewhat of a downturn with the economy, which would go on to continue. You know, gives you a little bit of an insight into what these industrial cities and towns
were going through. You know. The setting where we're at here, you know, it's it's it's a typical story that we can all relate to. It's towards the end of or actually it's the beginning of August. But you know, for anybody who has children, or even us back when we were younger, you know, August is kind of that sentimental reminder that school's on the horizon. You got to go back to school, and you know summer is going to
be almost over. So you know, the story starts out kind of, you know, bittersweet in a way that you know, at least Debbie's story really begins on that faithful morning August eighth, you know, nineteen seventy five, you.
Right, that a couple of weeks earlier, the family, Betty and stepdad Norm and her siblings had gone to Florida, and Debbie had been infatuated with a young man at that time. She got his address and his phone number. And then August eighth, nineteen seventy five, you take us to early morning when she's talking to her sister Michelle, or as she's called Missy. What is the conversation between Debbie and her younger sister that morning?
So that morning is is I think your typical in you know, I had spoken with Michelle, you know, consulted with her on the book when we started it, and then even you know, once we got further along here, but the banter between two of them was your typical older younger sibling, you know, discussion when your younger sibling. You know, we've all been there where they're they're nagging you and you know you're annoying me, leaving me alone. That kind of a little bit bit back and forth,
playful talk. So that that's kind of really what kind of starts and set that's the scene. First thing in the book is there's this discussion and dialogue between both of them, and Michelle actually would become critical with being one of the few people to last see Debbie alive that morning.
There's a conversation about where she's going. She's trying on different clothes, and Missy after where she's going. She says she's going to the beach, and so you write that sometime between seven and seven thirty am, Debbie departed with the blue top and blue shorts and as far as Missy knew, she was going to the beach, and that was the beach we spoke about Prescottle State Park in Neary, Pennsylvania,
that beach, that tourist attraction. So tell us what happens a little bit later with Betty, her mother and looking for her daughter.
So really, and that's kind of one of the many enduring mysteries that we have in this case, kind of you run into that it's reoccurring throughout the book, is that there's you know, even with the resolution that you know readers will find out, there's still one of the mysteries. And that's one of these ones, is that you know, she says she was going to the beach. We don't
really know what happened. Just kind of a little bit of a side point is that Debbie did have a habit of going with one of her best friends to the beach. You know, she was involved in a click of kids that all knew each other that would go. They would hang out, socialize, typical teenage things you would do back in the seventies. So it wasn't really out of the ordinary. It wasn't something that later on when her mother, Betty, woke up and found that she was gone,
it wasn't really out of the ordinary. Debbie had a habit of going to the beach with her friends. Her mother figured, Okay, when she gets back, you know, we'll have a talk with her. Because at the time, Debbie's mother and her stepfather were preparing to sell the house. They had unfortunately gotten into an argument the night before about Debbie keeping her room clean, something along those lines.
You know. As the day they kind of wore out, you know, the sun starts to set an evening on all states and Betty Ferguson comes to the realization that her daughter's not home. Panic doesn't immediately set him, you know, and this is kind of a critical part of the story. This is something we as parents all fear is, you know, you let your child go outside, is it really safe? You know, when they don't come home, when the street
lights are on. That's kind of where things start to begin to take a downturn.
You say that the family was preparing to go to an amusement park the next day, and Betty said, no, we're not going anywhere till we find Debbie. And that's it, And so you say it, panic doesn't really set in. She doesn't want to imagine anything they could have happened to her. And again, it's nineteen seventy five, and there's a certain amount of innocence and naivety that people suffered from at that time, especially when they lived in smaller
towns where they felt they knew most everyone. So what happens in terms of she speaks to Missy and ask her questions, how does she proceed in discovering things about that, for example, that her daughter had left her person or contact lenses. So tell us about her growing fear of something happening and how she proceeds with discovering what happened to her daughter.
Sure, so, I mean, I think you know the initial progression was, you know, you kind of hinted at an excellent point, is that this is the nineteen seventies than today, you know, we don't have technology back then, of course, you know, there's a little bit more of a freedom of kids at the time, and Debbie was regarded and she still often remembered as a free spirited kid who just loved life. So it wasn't anything really out of the ordinary. You know, Debbie would always usually sure she
would come back. But that next day, when she still hadn't returned, you know, her mother and stepfather had started to get you know, a little concerned enough to start reaching out to friends, you know, relatives who may have had a close relationship with her, trying to figure out what she was. And I think, you know, it kind of you know, and people in recent times have criticized Betty for it, but there was nothing completely out of
character with what Debbie had. Ultimately decides the fact that she just hadn't come home. You know, Like I said, she was a typical teenager at the time. She didn't do anything out of the ordinary that any other teenagers did.
So as that progresses through the weeknd and Debbie's still not home, her best friend hadn't seen her, you know, then her mom starts to become worried, and then they really start to go through the motions and even to the point to where they Her mother eventually relented and decided to visit the go downtown to Eerie to visit
the city very police department. And at the time she took a picture of her, and the sergeant at the front desk or office or whoever she spoke with actually declined to take the photo and decline to take a missing person's report. So she's really faced with this dilemma that you know her, her teenage daughter is missing. She doesn't know where she is in any kind of leads that they can search or go through to find her
coming up empty. And it's you and you really kind of notice as it starts to progress and get worse. Like I said, it all kind of hinges on that parent's worst nightmare.
You're right that August thirteenth, nineteen seventy five, the morning news the front page. Betty gets a call from Robin's father, Robin Neil being the best friend of our daughter. Debbie said they needed to read the front page and it's the headline is women's woman's body found floating in area creek. There was some description about her legs and her hands being bound by wire, and so in this creek is just north of Meadville in another county in Crawford County.
So Betty doesn't want to believe it, but the more she reads and the more she's urged by other people to take a look at this, she finally is urged to call the police.
Throughout that entire time, and Betty wrote about this quite prevalently, is her mind was kind of going back and forth. You know, Debbie's missing. There's a body that was found in Mill Creek. But then she kind of goes back and forth. Wall says here that it was a body not of a teenager but a young woman, and she does what every parent does. You know, second guess is herself, did I go through the things in her room? Did she? You know, Betty had a pretty good idea of what
Debbie would wear. You know, Debbie had a unique wardrobe. She always went out with a pair of rings on each finger, which we're missing at the time. So Betty believed she had a good idea of what Debbie was wearing when she went missing, went upstairs, found that pretty
much almost everything was in order. But then there's other things that start to come into play in the next day or two with that, which I won't get into too much detail and spoil it, but there's like I said, it initially then kind of escalates with with these newspaper articles reporting about it because at the time they had a newspaper correspondent through the morning news that would report
on news items in Meadville. You know, oil city Titus filled those areas, and you know, as more details start to come out, they kind of Betty's family, including her husband Norma. At the time, it urged her, Look, you need to at least go the worst thing that can happen and is they tell you it's Debbie, or the best thing that could happen is they rolled out and say, no, this isn't your daughter and she's somewhere else.
She is finally convinced when a person comes to the home, a friend of the family and says, I have a friend that's the dispatcher, and they talked about this girl having no fillings whatsoever, knowing that Debbie didn't have any fillings, and so that jarred Betty into the realization that it very well could be your daughter.
Yeah, I mean that kind of plays into it as well. But and this is still kind of prevalence today even though Erie has Erie is not as large of a city as it used to be. That characterization of a small town where everybody knows somebody still exists as it did back then, So stuff like that would not have
been out of the ordinary, of course. But you know, once she hears the details about the teeth and then there's a comment made about what kind of nail Paul she was wearing, right then that kind of you know, begins to take a turn from that moment on.
Very interesting. While the family is trying to grieve August twenty second, a letter addressed to Betty arrives at their home with an Erie, Pennsylvania postmark, and the letter what does it say in the letter?
So the letter, to the best of my knowledge, I believes look for the wolf and Deep's clothing. There is several letters that the family received that may be the wrong one. I may be mentioning, but the letters pretty much indicated or gave it just that they're not necessarily that they're looking in the wrong place, but that you know, they need to kind of look closer at who would be responsible for it.
It's also very interesting the norm and her actual biological father, Dick Gamma, are both engaged in the search at first for Debbie and her body, but then later they are involved in making an illustration. For example, Dick made illustrations of the missing jewelry to aid the police in the search. And then we also talk about that this is a state police case jurisdiction. But Betty is Ferguson and her husband Noram are very frustrated and they look for help
with a private investigator. Tell us about Dan Barber and his introduction to the Ferguson family.
So Dan Barber is actually a native of the area. Pretty good. He's actually, you know, through this process, actually became a really good friend of mine in the process, you know, kind of going back to nineteen seventy five. You know, Dan Barber also had connections with Meadville growing up. He had, you know, a desire and background to do something in law enforcement. You know, at least that Heath
States goes back to an early age. You know, he first enlisted it in the United States Army Military Police Corps, served briefly as a vice Section chief for the provosts. Marshall's office in the Paju Gun Province in the Republic of Korea. You know, he then returned stateside was stationed in Arizona. He then went to Military Police School in Fort Gordon, which located in Augusta, Georgia. This is about
in nineteen sixty eight. You know, it was there he underwent further training with the Criminal Investigation Division of Military known what we referred to as the CIDEA as a
special agent. Now the SEA IDEA essentially is you know, pretty much the law enforcement arm of the United States Army at the time, and in nineteen sixty eight, you know, this is kind of I think this perfectly reflects on Dan's character and his ability to do such an excellent investigation with any of the cases he's done, including debies and over the years. Is he benefited from instructors who were some of the most experienced former law enforcement officers
from around the country post World War Two. You know, one of his instructors, for example, was Thomas Joseph McGreevy, who was a World War Two veteran. You know, McGreevy had he was a veteran of the eighty second Airborne and then who was recruited into the CID in nineteen fifty two. Greevy actually would go on and was reassigned
to the Malai massacre investigation that occurred. After his stint with the CID, Dan Barbara returned to Arizona and then was asked to become involved in several different other cases. Now before or after he became a special agent. Rather, he did serve with the United States Army Criminal Intelligence, Criminal Investigation, sorry, Commanding Castle, Germany. Now this is in the early nineteen seventies, before he would go on to
become a senior intelligence analyst. He actually, you know, the Gamma case, just to kind of give a little bit of a footnote, would not be his first introduction to a homicide investigation. He had dealt with a prior homicide
investigation in Germany involving a United States soldier. A little bit too much of a footnote to go into that, but he had extensive backgrounds and doing investigations, interrogation techniques, and like I said, he came from the cream of the crop of the CID investigators and his credential supported that. So essentially what happens is kind of getting a little
bit off topic there. But you know, Dick Yamma Debbie's father calls Dan Barber introduces himself you know, says he wants to talk about his daughter's murder, which at that time had the case had completely fizzled out, they had no leads and whatnot. Dan, who was assisted by his partner Tom Martin, who was a veteran of the United States Marine Corps and also a good friend of his, visit with Dick get information about the case. Eventually Betty's mom and stepdad are brought in and you know they
discussed the case as well. That's essentially I you know, Dan's introduction into the case.
Let's Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. The State Police are investigating and Dan Barber is conducting his own investigation. What is the first thing, significant thing in terms of this case breaking that Dan Barber discovers before we talk about Dan Barber trying to share information with the Pennsylvania State Police.
Well, what essentially happens is in the coming It was pretty quick, I would say, you know, beginning of December until about mid December, Dan Barber had accumulated quite a bit of information. He had spoken with Debbie's close friends, including her good friend Robneil. He had accumulated enough information where he was kind of at least he could rule out certain individuals, and you know, by mid December, you know, he he had met with a gentleman by the name
of Louis Penman at the Lawrence Park Police barracks. Essentially what had happened is they essentially just brushed him off and said they didn't need his assistance. They told him he was more than welcome to do a parallel investigation, but that they declined to share any information with him,
and he went on his way. So I would say, what really kind of piques his interests is when Debbie's mother indicates that Debbie was not necessarily close, but she was on friendly terms with her English teacher, Raymond Payne
and strong Vincent High School. There's a few other items of information that fall into place gradually that lead towards a suspicion that at least Raymond Payne should be looked at, you know, especially and this kind of goes back to some conversations he has with her friends and classmates that no Debbie fellow girls that were at high school with
her on you know, doing extracurricular activities and such. So he sort of starts to lead the investigation that way, and even then when he brings this information to the state police, they still want nothing to do with him. They kind of schew him away and tell him to pretty much that they don't need his information.
He discovers a person named John Lesqueris and also that he's a student at this same school as Debbie attended, but also that he had a relationship with the same teacher that you mentioned that Raymond Payne. It was also one of his own teachers as well. He finds out about John Lacaris, the relationship he has with his teacher in terms of living with him, and also his criminal record and that connection with his teacher.
Yeah, Laskaris is a unique individual, and this is something that you know when las Karras is arrested for doing burglaries and petty thefts and stuff like that. Lascaris had a long prior criminal history of these types of crimes, so it wasn't really out of the ordinary when he
was arrested. But when that information is brought into the public and Betty Ferguson, Debbie's mother, notices it, she brings it to Dan Barber's attention, and this is another kind of nail on the coffin for Dan, where he says, oh, Lascars not only knows of Debbie, but he lives with Ray Payne and with las Karis. Is Debbie did not have a real favorable opinion of him. Las Karis was reviewed kind of by his classmates as a bragger, I
know at all, somebody who's real cocky. So Dan could at least kind of rule out and assimilate that, you know, this isn't something that would have been like, you know, a romantic trust or a boyfriend or anything like that. But Laskaris comes into play and you know, eventually gives Dan Barber some information which again sets him on what he believes is the right path towards Debbie's killer.
In particular, he talks and Barber is very interested in the copper wire that was bound Debbie at this crime scene. So what does Lacaris have to say regarding that copper wire?
Much the gist of the conversation when last Kari's question by Dan Barber about the wire is he states that he had burglarized a store in Erie, Pennsylvania on Casgate Street, that he had stolen the wire, that he had brought it back to Payne's house, and he makes a comment that Paine had told him to get rid of the wire. This was after Debbie had been located, and he had mentioned also that there was still a school wire on
the property where Raymond Pain still resided. Now, the interesting thing with this is that the wire itself was a really really unique type of wire. It was a very thin type of welding wire. Not real, i would say, in excessive demand to where you could just go to any like, you know, if you were to go to
Home Depot or Low's today. It wasn't a So that was kind of another clue that Dan Barber had as this wire which was used, which was found on Debbie's you know, her hands, her throat, and her ankles, was very unique any of the stores that had had burglaries around this month. He then decided, Okay, he's connected to Raymond Pain. Let's see if we can connect the wire that he stole and see if that matches what that's found on Debbie's body.
Now, in terms of trying to get some confirmation about this wire, of course, they they go ahead and try to match this wire, try to find the origins of this copper wire. But at the same time, they try to get a search warrant for Payne's property to be able to search tell us about that.
So at this point is this is what makes this story fascinating, is that by this point, keep in mind, the state police had still run out of essentially ran out of any leads. In fact, the state police had focused more so on Norm Ferguson as a suspect because Norm had walding Weier in his basement. He was known to tinker around with I mean ness, I mean essentially along the lines of stuff he worked with. So they believed that Norm was a suspect that couldn't be discounted.
As far as Dan Barbara was concerned, he didn't believe Norm was involved at all. It was pretty clear from the onset. So with that being said, there wasn't necessarily I would say, a search warrant. But Dan Barber, now keep in mind, he's operating as a private investigator. Even back then in the nineteen seventies, you're operating under different circumstances compared to today. You know, you don't have the
assistants in the state Police. You can't just go in and say here, I need to pick you know, we have a search warm signed by a judge X y Z. We need this item of information. So originally what had happened, you see, went out to the property next to where Raymond Pain lived, which is where his brother Ed lived, and essentially spoke with his brother about the case. Or essentially what he did is he used the ruse that he was working in regards to individuals who had lost
property that was stolen by Lascaris. He didn't mention that he was looking into his brother Raymond for Debbie's case, but he brings up that last Charis mentioned this type of wire. You know, by then Barbara had accumulated some samples from some of the plumbing and electrical stores where they had this wire. And he shows up to Ed Payne and there's a specific type of wire that Ed picks out as being what he recalls as being the wire.
Not only that, but he tells Dan Barbara, hey, I still have this wire in my barn, and he recalls also seeing his brother have it in his possession in August eighteen seventy five. So they go into the barn and look for it, and sure enough, the wire is no longer there. They don't know where it is, so
that poses a little bit of a problem. And then you know, Dan Barbara runs into another issue, which after that he essentially gets to cease and desists from Raymond Pay's atturning, telling him to leave not only Raymond pain alone, but to leave Haynes family alone as well.
Yeah, and he says, regardless of your private investigative status, he says, you're just a private citizen. I can't share anything with you. I'm not going to take your information right And.
That was the State Police once he really started to gain traction and obtain all this information and present this to them in March of nineteen seventy five. And look, this isn't you know, this book wasn't you know, at least the way that it's written is not meant to chastiser be a hit piece against the State Police. But but it's it's it's true the state that they dropped
the ball. There's some numerous things, you know, we don't want to spoil everything with the book, but there was numerous instances in their investigation where they came close, but they were, you know, kind of narrow minded on who they felt was responsible. And you know, Dan barbera being you know, an experienced investigator and his own right was trying to steer them in the right direction and they
refuse to get help. Eventually he would get that help down the road, but unfortunately it took quite some time.
In Dan Barber's investigation, along with his partner Tom Martin, he found out Raymond Pain's extensive and very very interesting criminal record. You talk about in the nineteen fifties, he stabbed and attempted to rape a woman. Tell us about some of the criminal record that he discovered about Raymond Pain.
So Ray Pain is really, I would say, a really interesting character. What would essentially happen at least you know that we have that we know about Pain. Is one thing to keep.
In mind is we don't know everything about Pain's life, but what can be surmised is, of course, at least when he was you know, He's born in nineteen thirty seven in imperiod Pennsylvania.
He was the oldest of two sons to teachers. The family eventually relocated the Eerie. His father, Jeffrey Payne, is actually still today a well respected teacher. I mean he sens passed away, but Raymond Payne's mother and father are both still former respected teachers, the family themselves still held in high regard. So you know, we see in Payne's early life, you know, he gets involved in certain things,
you know, the cup Scouts and boy Scouts. It's not until he's in his early teens, around the age of thirteen, that he starts to engage various experiments and sexual acts including bondage and so on and so forth. And you know, he starts to gain this unusual appetite with sexual tendencies that we would consider today abnormal or not not right. So what happens essentially is, you know, up until his graduation from high school in nineteen sixty six, he joins
the United States Navy. We know he gets stationed in Alexandria, Virginia for a short time, He gets married, eventually gets an honorable discharge, returns back to Erie. He's employed briefly as a loan collector. But soon, you know, his violent sexual fantasies that would continue to plague him kind of metamorphosize into this incident in nineteen fifty eight with an attempted rape and stabbing of a young woman in south
of Erie. What essentially happens with that, it's just a long list of instances where there is an individual that has a clear and present danger to society, specifically to women,
young females, you know, children. We get sit here, probably for hours and discuss his criminal background, but it just starts a domino effect of one thing after the other of where the criminal justice system failed properly take care of a criminal like Raymond Pain, who is the exact type of person it was meant to be put in place to protect the general public.
From Let's Jesus as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages along with the investigation regarding his criminal record. What they do find out is how on earth he is dismissed for various things like misconduct from other school districts and yet doesn't seem to be vetted for his criminal record, but also for his record as a teacher at these districts.
And this is this is something that Dan Barber still to this day coins as a fact. Is what with school districts? And this is another reason for writing that I that I wrote this book is this type of crime is not unusual throughout America. This has happened to numerous students where their teachers have committed horrible crimes against I mean, it still happens. But what happens is is,
you know, raym Pain and eventually became a teacher. He worked originally in the Eurea School District for a little bit of time and then went to the Gerard School district. There's clear and present evidence that we have that he was improper with his students. There is numerous examples of that throughout the years. But instead of properly handling the situation reporting it to the authorities, what happened is they did what Dan Barbara calls passing the trash, rather than
take accountability for his actions and properly address it. You know, they're so easy to dismiss him, write him a letter of recommendation, and then let it be somebody else's problem. And it's a reoccurrence in society that we still see today. And this is something that would also kind of rear its ugly head later on in this case, long after you know, court cases and convictions that still stand out.
You write about that Don Barber or Don barbera pardon me goes to eventually the assistant district Attorney, Don Lewis at Don Lewis is much more receptive, tell us about this meeting and what is accomplished with this meeting.
So so Don Lewis, by this time the assistant District Attorney for Crawford County, which is where Debbie's body was found. Don Lewis had a prior relationship with Dan Barber. Dan had worked on some cases in Crawford County, so Don knew him. He knew his background, he knew his investigative techniques and skills, knew that Dan was as good as his word and that he was a solid guy. So Dan comes in and he pretty much brings this, brings
all his evidence with him. He lays it out in front of Don Lewis and says, look, here's all the evidence I have. Here's who I believe it points to is being responsible for Debbie's murder. State police will not listen. So after that discussion, Don Lewis says, essentially says that you know, he'll he'll see what he can do to assist him, and you know, he becomes really the driving force and kind of putting a wedge into the state police to say, hey, I had a meeting with Dan Barber.
His stuff seems pretty serious. You need to check it out. And then that's when a working relationship begins with you know, Detective John Loftus with the State Police, who had been heading the investigation, who was assisted by John Martin at the State Police. And you know, finally, finally, you know John Loftus, who's who you know, I think is also another unsung hero. I mean, he was a decent cop as well. He listens to Dan's evidence and he too gets on on Dan's side and says, Okay, I see
where you're going with all this evidence. This guy does seem pretty good for it. Let's see what else we can do. At that point, you know, once you finally get the State Police to look into it, you know, as far as Dan Barbera's there's nothing Dan Barber's concerned. There's nothing further he could do, you know. The State Police actually then by that spring into the summer, began to finally start looking at Raymond Payne as a serious suspect.
You say, the case takes a shocking turn when Raymond Payne met was his attorney in Don Lewis's office in early October. What is this meeting all about?
So this meeting occurs after Pain's arrest and essentially what happens is through Pain's attorney, he states that he wants to confess, and the idea, the gist of it is that if he confesses, if he cooperates that that there could be a potential to try to get a lesser term or a lesser sentence. The general way of thinking at least is that, you know, he also gives the He also gives what is now widely believed as a
confession that is really not trustworthy at all. He gives a confession to Don Lewis, you know, in a price of his attorney, where he supposedly states what happened to Debbie, that she died in Erie County, at Crawford County where her body was found. Now, keep in mind, because her body was found in Crawford County, it was Crawford County's case to prosecute, not Erie County, right, So that also kind of sets up a benchmark, a little bit of a legal tussle as to which county would handle the case.
Don Lewis was prepared to handle it for Crawford County if he had to. But essentially the key with that story is that confession points the investigation as pointing back up to Erie, Pennsylvania, with the District Attorney's office then wondering if they need to step in and handle to
handle the case from that point. I won't go into too much detail about Payne's confession, but you know, he goes into he's at least a little bit graphic, essentially states that he took Debbie to a park in the Borough water for Pennsylvania, that he tied her up, that he was going to take some photographs. He went back to his his vehicle to get some marijuana and came back. She was dead. She has supposedly strangled herself by accident.
Why is in the face of everything forensic evidence and essentially you know, again it's kind of an It's what offenders do, right, you know, they attacked the character. I didn't do this, she did this. Yeah, So it's a typical blame game that we see with typical offenders. Were what they do is they minimize their own actions for their crimes, and they placed it on the victim. And that's essentially what the statement amounted to.
Well, I would say it's much more when you depict this murder as a accident, which is what he basically says he accidentally killed her. That wasn't his intention. The photos were consensual. But he also talks about a drug he calls downs and metro. I can't remember the term, but this drug that he said that she found in his glove compartment and then asked to do so. So again a ludicrous story, far more than just downplaying his involvement.
Yeah so, and it really And the thing is is the one thing that we learn about Raymond Pain, especially with with this story, and at least in generalize an individual, is Pain is all about control. He's all about manipulation as well. And that kind of shows within the confession because he wants to steer it in a direction where he says, hey, this was not intentional. I did not
set out to do this. It was an accident. You know, Like I said, it's all kind of self serving, because if it's an accident, then guess what, then you're looking at something maybe more along lines of you know, involuntary manslaughter or lesser charge. And then you get out, right, it's not a felony. You're not looking at first or second degree murder, right, and you know, so it kind of hinges on, Well, that's going to be his defense.
You know, usually with with these types of criminal defenses like that, it's like, well it's either insanity or hey, it was an accident or self defense, and that's kind of initially kind of what he's gearing towards.
He also adamantly says he denies having sex with Debbi, but there is seminal fluid that was found on the body at the crime scene.
Correct, Yeah, there were swaps taken from the autopsy and that did detect seminal fluid, which again it goes against
the evidence that we have in the case. But again the thing is is also with all this evidence in the case, and this is what really has kind of compounded the story over the years, is evidence of that that he had potentially raped or assaulted Debbie somehow has morph sized into this rumor that still permeates, you know, around the city of very that Debbie was promiscuous, that Debbie ran around, that Debbie did, you know, with all kinds of boys in That further from the truth, and
it's important to point that out because it's nothing more than a character association against a young girl who, from what we know from her best friends, was not really into boys. She was not into dating. She was just into loving life, spending time with her friends and having a good time. There's no evidence that Debbie was promiscuous at the time, which you know, essentially with that DNA evidence on her body. There's only two ways you're gonna
leave it, Okay. You're gonna leave it either through a consensual encounter or through a criminal encounter. And if there was a criminal encounter, especially with a minor, that's somewhat of an issue, okay. And the one thing we also have to think about with that as well is, you know, in the nineteen seventies and even today, individuals who murder children, rape, sexually assault children. I'm pretty sure Pain's also thinking if I go to prison, it's not gonna end well for me.
Right. What he does do in this confession is that he does state that there are some jewelry and other items of Debbie's pertinent to this case that are stashed at his property. So they go with a search warrant and to confirm parts of his story. Anyway, these items are found on this property, correct, right.
And it's probably one of the it's probably one of the very few minimal ideas we have from Raymond Payne's statement that actually is corroborated by factual evidence. It's probably one of the few things, if any of the only things if his statement, that are actually true where he says it, items are here. If you go there and you find him where you dig them up, I know that he had placed them or her jewelry in the well.
That's exactly where police founder or found the inform found that he said there were cement blocks that he originally tied her body down in a pond on his property. They found a cement blocks with wires still attached, the same molding wire that was found on her body. Her shoes were secreted in the woods. They found those two. So at least for that part where he says, hey, you can find us there, I'm telling the truth. He was truthful about it because they did locate it.
Let's use this as an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now there is this issue, and you had mentioned it, the idea that it's there's a hearing, a separate hearing on whether this will be a third, second or first degree murder. So the third degree with the threat of the third degree, is that it's only ten to twenty years sentence as opposed to a second or a first degree which is an automatic life sentence with
no parole. Tell us about Mike Paul Masano and Shad Connolly and they're getting ready to prosecute Raymond Pain.
So so Mike Palmazano and then Shad Connolly. Palmazano actually he passed away a few weeks go, unfortunately, but Mike Palmisano was a seasoned lawyer here in Erie. He was a well respected, well known prosecutor here in the District Attorney's office, widely respected by many, and he still is to this day. Him and Shad Conley. You know, Conley also went on to become a judge later on, he
had another respected prosecutor. So what they're looking at essentially is, you know, after the case is then remitted back to the to Erie County because that's where according to pain statement that he died, you know, pal Masano takes over the case. He's assisted by Conley on the case, and their plan is essentially tryumph for first degree, first degree murder. There's a lot of rumors about the time that they're
going to try to go for the death penalty. Palmizano kind of hinges back and forth on on whether they should pursue the death penalty and whatnot. But there their kind of approach, I would say, at least in this case, is that the evidence they have suggests that pretty much. You know, it wouldn't say it's a solid case, but
it's it's largely circumstantial. And you know, and this kind of goes back to some of the ethics that Dan Barber having he did his investigation, where he believes, hey, you know, even in the world of forensic technology today, even back in the seventies, some of the best evidence you could have as it was, you know, circumstantial evidence. But there were concerns because the fact of the matter is is Pain says it was an accident. I know that.
You know, they were also looking at the possibility of that Sarah wacked, you know, the famous pathologist from outside Pittsburgh. Yes, Payn's attorney was looking at having him come on for the defense. There was discussions about that. And you know, sure Pain had this these items from Debi, but there was nothing that they could specifically tie him to her
murder as happening. You know, there's no blood, you know, It's not like they could do the DNA tests and and say, oh, well this is your DNA you did it or not. So you know, it kind of goes back to the circumstantial evidence, and that kind of bleeds into the worries. You know, you're always going to have this worry as a prosecutor. You know, a case can
go anyway. You know, you know, a drake can hear all the evidence and say hey, we don't have you know, enough to convict or they're going to quit, but you also have you also couldn't ignore Pain's past history of being able to pretty much escape from prior convictions for crimes. So those were on the forefront of their of their mind.
Now what essentially changes this is they get a they get a notification I believe it was in February of that year before they had tried the case, essentially, and they get a letter from a gentleman by the name of Anthony Lee Evans who claims, hey, I was in the cell next to Pain Dearie County Jail. He admitted to sexually assaulting Debbie and killing her, and that kind of they believe, well, this will add another you know, nail in the coffin or a clog and a wheel,
whatever you want to call it. So they take Evans's statement and he's listed as a witness for this upcoming trial. But of course, as a reader will find out, then as they prepare to go read the trial, it takes another sharp turn and another surprising turn.
You write all along this in this book, and it's an important thread, if not a theme of this book is how Betty and less so her entire family, including Norm and Dick Gamma, Wi's father, all of these people dealing with grief, dealing with the anger, the frustration, and of course hoping that this conviction, with a conviction, that they'll have a sense of p and relief from this constant barrage of these thoughts and this anger and frustration.
And that's what attracted me to the story. And I explain this to Debbie's sister, is we didn't really you know, we as me and and my editor in the publishing team at History Press, who were just fantastic. The way we wanted to approach it was we wanted to tell Debbie's story, where you know, we set the record straight on that, but we also wanted to tell Betty's story, what her and her family went to was abhorrent. No
family should ever have to go through it. And you know, it's one of the different you know, I would say tentacles of crime of people that you know, if somebody is murdered, they're not the only victim. It spread to the family. We see that all the time in many cases. And what really was prominent and stood out, and Betty later wrote about this was nobody was there to help her. Nobody was there to relate, Nobody understood how she felt.
She couldn't go to talk to anybody. Granted to say, have resources in counseling and support groups that are there to help feelings with that, But even in the mid nineties, you know, this is still stuff that you know, at least you know cognitively, we as a society were not formed on So you have a bunch of people who are injured mentally moving along hoping and praying that you get, you know, the justice that you want for your murdered child. And it's a very difficult story. And like you said,
it is a theme that's woven throughout the story. You know, the grief never goes away, it just it becomes I would say, not easier to deal with, but easier for you to accept and with at least Debie's family, many of them didn't go on the same path that her her mother did, which was you know, which is a good portion of the second part of the book, which
is about forgiveness. And that was an important story to tell, because that is another facet, at least from my experience in the past, in knowing some case, isn't it like this? Families can use every Families should be able to have access to every kind of support possible in situations like this, and she kind of paved the way to make that possible, at least here in Erie County. That still benefits people today.
Yes, you talk about this extraordinary trial, and of course the jail house snitch testifies, and it's dubious whether the jury really believes them completely. However, the conviction July eighteenth, nineteen seventy seven is premeditated murder. There seems to be no doubt from the judges' comments. First degree murder, life
sentence with no possibility of parole. You say, right after, though attorney Ambrose was working to get an appeal for the first degree murder conviction, focusing on that the first degree murder conviction. And you say that Dan Barber just continued his investigation of Raymond Pain.
He did once the state police had taken over the case. Dan barbera at that vointe said what he had set out to do, the evidence who he thought was responsible. He thought he had accumulated and done what he was hired by the family to do, so he was working
on other cases. Now there is also Dan kind of re enters the fold because when you know, the family learns about, you know, the many different instances where Pain could have been held accountable and the passing of the trash, you know, from one one job to the next, and nobody holding him accountable for those actions. He then decides
to pursue a civil suit. Barbara is brought on after he recommends an attorney who he had known from his military days, and he's asked to continue his investigation, which stends into Raymond Payne's pass even further. And you know, we learned quite a lot from that information, and it really shows just how again, and this is something that
can't be stressed enough. Everybody in the criminal justice system not only failed Debbie, but they failed the general public withholding Pain accountable, and it's just one thing after the other where it just kind of cements one thing after the other where it seemed for a while, at least for Betty Ferguson and her family, that nobody wanted to take any accountability. And I think that was a big part of it too, is admit that you were wrong. Admit that you know this man, he was not a
decent individual and should have been held accountable. Wasn't you right?
That extraordinary transformation happens in the beginning from her son who returns from art school and talks to Betty and talks about just her dark mood overall, and that she wasn't there for them as as her children, but also that she just wasn't herself, She was unhappy, and that she had to do something and it was up to her to do something. That led to her mind opening.
She was offered a vacation, and on that vacation from somebody that she was getting treatment, she came to the conclusion that the only way to change the way she felt every single day was to forgive Raymond pain. What did she do in that pursuit?
So in that pursuit Eventually what happens is that he comes to the realization that pain's in jail where he belongs. He's not going you know, the anger and the hatred is still there. And this also kind of explores the realm of how it affected Deadly's siblings, Debbie's siblings as well. So it was my decision not to stretch too far into that because that's not it's not my story to tell their story. I was focused on telling Debbie's story
and Betty's and also that of Dan Barber. So it really took a point in turn where Betty was confronted with a certain truth that she didn't want to realize, and that she was an angry person. And that was one of that I think the amazing things about her personality. If you knew Betty, I had met her a few times years, years and years ago. If you knew Betty, you know she was at least upfront and honest with you, especially when she would talk about Debbie's death and how
it affect her. He was upfront and honest that she wasn't a perfect mother. You know, none of us are perfect parents, and that resonates, I think with a lot of people. Is that we can relate with her that Hey, look, I'm not perfect. You know I had you know. She goes on to say, I had hate in my heart, and you know I didn't, you know, even writing this, I'll tell you right now, I didn't agree with everything she said, but I can understand where she was coming from.
I personally have never been in her shoes, and I hope I never have to be with that type of situation. But she did, and she set out to do what was best for her that could heal her with Debbie's murder. And that's the most important thing to focus on. It is grief comes in many different stages and phases. Even as you learn with Debbie's father, he took a different approach as well. Each each person's different. You know, it doesn't mean that you have to forget somebody. There's different
ways that you can approach it. And it all kind of comes back to what I believe is an outlet for other families who, unfortunately more often not have to go through the same thing.
You talk about. You write about this extraordinary and very moviesque and very powerful scene you write about where Betty goes to the prison and meets Raymond pain.
Yeah, it in a lot of that really comes from Betty herself writing about what it was like their conversations they had, and it's a little jarring at first. It'd probably be a little bit of jarring at first for the for the reader, because we sit here and we think, wait a minute, this is a man that took your daughter away. This is an individual that murdered your daughter. But you have to kind of look at it from the outside looking in. You know, how is this, you know,
how is what she doing right now? How is this going to help Betty in the book? And it sets the book up for the third act in regards to that as to how the case ends, because that even though we may not agree with what she did and how she made amends with Raymond Payne, it healed her for her own specific reasons, but it also set up, in effect, the rest of how the rest of her life would be. So, you know, we don't want to go into too much detail about it because it would
tell the book. But you know, it was really kind of a one of those you know, and you described it perfectly. It's kind of movie esque when we think about it, and it is true. When I was reading about her account of it and how you know what they discussed about. But there's always the thing, and readers will realize that throughout the book that there's a common theme and it's just as involved in that moment as the rest.
Of the book, that Jesus has an opportunity to stop to hear these messages. Now, we won't go into exactly what was said at this meeting, but when Betty came home and we're talking about she comes home and she talks to Norm, and Norm visibly sees the change in her. She's smiling for the first time in a long time. Seems like she's freeing. She tells of this liberating experience.
What does Norm decide to do, because you write that at one point, not that much before this date, he was aiming a three point fifty seven revolver at Raymond Payne standing on the ladder. He was ready to shoot this man. Tell us about what his decision is.
So kind of backtracking a little bit without going too much into it. When when when Betty Ferguson and and her husband Norm were told by Dan Barber that he believed ray Payne killed Debbie, That's kind of where the rage had originally set in at the time, and and this was and and Betty spoke about this recently. There's Nett there's a series of Lake Erie Murderers on Hulu
which you can watch, which talks about the case. He had decided one day that he would go out to ray Payne's property and he would he would shoot and kill him. And I think for Norm it was a little bit different because Norm cared about Debbie. Norm cared about her siblings, and and and Betty and and and by all accounts, he was an excellent stepfather. You know, he had kids of his own, two who well respected him and still love him. But also Raymond Payne was
a former classmate and friend of his from high school. Well, I wouldn't say they were at least acquaintances. So for Norm, I think it, you know, and there's other reasons too, we won't go into, but there's there's a lot of factors in play with that where when Betty originally set out on this journey forgiveness, Norm didn't want a part
of it. He would help her get there, but he wouldn't see it through himself because he felt different, which again it kind of experiences this journey of grief that that families go through, that everybody is different with how they handle it. What happens to Betty, I think just kind of caught on like wildfire. And eventually Norm came to the realization that maybe he too could set out on his own journey because Betty, Norm had had gone through a lot of difficulties with the murderer. It nearly
ruined their marriage. And you know, I mean at one point was almost accused of murdering her, Debbie that is, and you know, this journey of forgiveness, this, you know, the healing in her heart. As Betty go on to say, spreads to Norman, he engages you know, with pain, to which your reader will find out. But of course not everybody's happy about all that either.
Yes, you're right that Debbie's father, Dick Gamma, is outraged and not on.
Board at all. Yeah, he was. Dick handled it differently. Dick Gamma handled it differently than Betty did. And again not to be the dead horse, but it kind of goes on that that seems everybody handles their grief and healing differently. He essentially told her he wanted no part of part of it, and I from that moment on I Never Spoke again.
You write about part of the journey that Betty undergoes is that she gets recognized for her abilities and so she works as a con uncler and she gets involved with victims of homicide survivors, right Yeah, And.
Once she started doing that, I think it provided a conduit, an outlet rather for her to share her story in what she went through. And again it you know, she got a lot of recognition, she got a lot of accolades for it, and it was just a reminder also that you know, she's able to now provide healing to other families that went through what she had to that
she didn't have access to when Debbie died. And you know, it really is something that I think is powerful in itself, and it really speaks to the character of Betty and
what she went through. Like I said, we all don't have to agree with with how she went through things, but she did what she needed to do to heal herself, not only for her, but for Debbie as well, as she says, And you know, she went on to counsel so many different families and so many victims of crimes here in Eerie that it really is one of those things.
You know, I don't think you can give enough recognition for somebody who does that in our community, especially in a day when certain services for victims of abuse, families of homicide, or seeing you know, budget cuts and anything. So it really is a prevalent story, at least in those regards.
You talk about Betty and her journey to move on and live her life again. But meanwhile, Raymond Painne is continuing via his lawyers to appeal the sentence. Eventually, on the third appeal he makes some ground tell us about this what his attorneys would like to happen and why.
So the crux of all this was essentially, you know, Raymond pain goes through the appeals process in the argument that he's raising is that he was not responsible for Debbie's sexual assault, which was originally tied in with the case, right, and that his DNA was not on the body, and therefore, because it's not his DNA that he should be re sentenced, and if he was resentenced to a lower degree to
be eligible for a release. And you know, essentially what happens is eventually in a decision that really I kind of I think stunned everybody you know, I was stunned when I heard it. Is. In April twenty nineteen, the Pennslvania Superior Court overturned his first first degree murder conviction in life sentence. It was a split decision they had for the panel, but the panel argued the DNA results could have resulted in a different outcome during his original
degree at guilt hearing. But they didn't necessarily come out and say that pain was innocent, you know, they stopped short of it. What the decision did is it allowed the possibility of a resentence for a lesser degree of murder, like I said, with the possibility of release. You know, when this happened, of course, the person the News went to immediately was Betty Ferguson, and keeping with her journey of forgiveness, she had said, I go along with the law.
You know, what the law says is what I agree with. So you know at that point what happens is with his first degree murder conviction overturned, Raymond Payne is remanded back to Erie County. He is or his case is remanded back to Erie County. He remains incarcerated at Sci. Laurel Hill. Now this time, you know, this is also fascinating because we're talking twenty nineteen. You know, the rules are different for criminal procedures than they were in nineteen
seventy seven. You know, they had changed pretty drastically. Back in seventy seven, a degree guilt hearing was usually presided over by a panel of judges what they call sitting in the bank. Now, what would happen is is the degree a guilt hearing would be heard over seen by
just one judge. So and then that eventually happens after some delay back and forth, it eventually does happen a few years after and it eventually starts to get underwegh and it really it really sets a precedent for one of the cases here that has bothered the Eerie area for a while with everybody, you know, on on their toes, because in twenty twenty, you know, when that degree of guilt hearing began, everybody was interested in is pain going to go back to prison or is he going to
be able to walk?
Brief what do authorities learn from this hearing that they may not have known beforehand.
So what it happened is is with the degree of guilt overturned his conviction overturned. That was due to his DNA not being on Debbie's body. And you know, there's several different opinions about that. Some people believe that it was because the DNA was too degraded that it is still pains DNA. Others believed that Pain had an accomplice. What the Degree of Guilt hearing focused on, at least was not whether Pain had an accomplice or who left
the DNA. Payne had already acknowledged that he was responsible for Debbie's death. He said it in a confession. He pled guilty to it, so there is no dispute in regards to that. What they did is they used his own statement against him because, as I said before, how he claimed Debbie died did not match up with the forensic evidence that was all brought out in the Degree of Guilt hearing. So and that just came out. You know, Judge braybender Over saw that case. He did a fantastic job.
You know, even Jack Neary, who I know, he did an excellent job handling that for the District Attorney's office, and it was really it was really a powerful case where they really you know, but but you also had to deal with other specifics as well. I mean, you have people from the nineteen seventies who are no longer alive. Doctor Robert Thomas, who was the original county corner for Crawford County was no longer alive, so they had to go.
They couldn't find any autopsy photos at the time, so they were lacking in certain things that they could produce and not produce at the trial. So it all kind of brings back that anxiety again for Betty and her family, what's going to happen, you know, But at least she and her family approach it from a different perspective. She approaches it through through new eyes.
I think at that point, you right, that the idea of Raymond Pain having accomplice set off a firestorm of speculation that exploded on the Internet and social media.
Yeah, and this is still something that is really hotly debated today. And that's what makes this case fascinating is it's still debated not even here in Eerie, but on true crime forums. Other podcasts have carried it, Like I said, the Lake Erie Murders on Hulu also you know, discussed it as well. So but but it really kind of sets up several different factors. That still, I would say want everybody today is that despite what we know about the case, what was written, we really don't know all
the facts of the story. And as as you will see, Raymond Pain is never going to acknowledge or admit, he never does what fully happened. He takes that with him to his grave. What it comes down to is it also kind of reignites all these rumors about the case right from the nineteen seventies, you know, that bring up Debbie's character again. That really kind of focus on a minimalization of Raymond Pain. But we know there's several things.
What we can here's here's what we know at least about it, and we can kind of, you know, speculate all we want to. But there's DNA found on the body. You can't dispute that. With technology today, technology could ascertain if that DNA, even if it's degraded. They have the you know, with Authorm and all these other different companies, they have an excellent opportunity to be able to take that DNA and test it. That's going to tell you several different factors. Okay, we come back to how that
DMA got there. DNA should never be found on a child. We all know that. So it comes down to two things. Either it was a consensual matter or it was a criminal matter. I'm inclined to believe, as everything I've written in the book, that Debbie was not promiscuous at the time. We have a pretty good idea, We have a pretty good breakdown of where she was in the days prior to her death, in disappearance and up until we have a several day window of between when she disappears and
when she is found in Crawford County. But it would have been completely out of character for Debbie to just randomly meet up with somebody have a promiscuous encounter. That that's not in her nature. It wasn't who she was as a person. And I know there's people who probably rollize and say, yeah, well, anything can happen, and that's very true. But the evidence it leads to point where it's a criminal encounter that led to that DNA being found on her body. And there's that DNA evidence is
going to point to two different two individuals. If it is really degraded, and if they are able to pool it, it'll either confirm that it's Raymond Pain and if it's not him, it'll be somebody else. And if it is somebody else, that individual is still out there needs to be brought to justice. Whether they were an accomplice of pain or whether it was a completely different situation. I
tend to believe it's tied in with her murder. This kind of book ends the mythology of Raymond Pain is he had a tendency with his students and kids to manipulate and control them. We know that for a fact. We know that from girls and students who have come forward over the years. And here here's one thing to kind of alleviates that is after he pled guilty in it and claim that he had strangled Debbie, dozens of
students still visited him while he was in prison. That gives you an idea of what kind of control this individual had. So it's not something that we can rule out. And I think that that's something that at least we owe to Debbie's family, and we owe to Debbie to have that DNA tested. And I know the family is supportive of it because I've spoken with her sister. But I think that DNA is crucial because I think it'll give you I mean it could have been a consensual account.
If that's the case, at least you can rule it out. But that's still you know, as much as we know about this case, it comes to reveal there's still quite a bit that we likely don't know and we'll never know.
Yes, it's incredible. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about the murder of Debbie Gamma. You talked about Betty dying in twenty twenty three at the age of eighty, but that was three years after Raymond Payne died in twenty twenty. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about the
murder of Debbi Gamma. Justice and Abolition in Erie. For those people that might want to find out more about this book or your rather work, can you tell us about a website or any social media you do?
Sure so, I do. I write a lot about research I do in cases, especially related to Great Lakes historical true crime. You can find that on Facebook at Shadows from the Boulevard. You can also find my books on Amazon dot Com, Barnes and Noble, any big box retailers. If you're local to the Erie area, Warner Books a bookseller. There's pressed coffee and books also in Eerie. Pretty wide variety and outlet. I know Walmart dot com, Target dot com, pretty numerous avenues where you can purchase a copy.
That's great. Thank you so much, Justin Dombrowski The Murder of Debbie Gamma, Justice and Abolition in Erie. Thank you so much for this interview. Thank you, thank you for having me, and goodness night,