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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
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That's ZipRecruiter dot com, slash m r d er, ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder, zip recruiterer the Smartest way to hire. It was in Manchester, England, in nineteen sixty five when the police were called to a possible crime scene at the residence of Ian Brady and girlfriend Myra Hindley. What they found in the upstairs spare bedroom were the remains of seventeen year old Edward Evans, who had been cut
into pieces with an axe. After an investigation and search, the police found two suitcases that were full of graphic pictures and a videotape of a young ten year old girl, Leslie Ann Downey, who had been missing for months. The pictures showed Leslie tied up and tortured. The tape recorded the assault and when heard at the police station, made people cry and some even vomit. Wrey is about to unfold shock not only the UK, but also the entire world.
Soon they would become known as the Moore's Murders, one of the most infamous serial murder cases to come out of Britain. This book by journalist Alan R. Warren not only reviews the real facts and evidence describes what really happened behind the closed doors of Brady and Hinley, but also includes actual letters from Ian Brady from the last few years of his life. These give us a unique insight into the mind of Brady, his loves, his hates,
and his beliefs in the world of today. After reviewing several documentaries and reading many of the books already published, he realized that there were many things left unset about this case. Even though Myra claimed innocence by not being there when the rapes and murders happened, he suggests that not only was she there, but she was intimately involved
in both the murders and the rape. The book that we're featuring this evening is The Moor's Murders, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley Serial Killers British Criminals, Volume three, with my special guest journalist, author and podcaster Alan R. Warren. Welcome back to the program and thank you very much for greading this interview Alan R. Warren.
Well, thank you for having me. Always good to be here.
It's always a pleasure. You always handle some of the most infamous and notorious serial killer cases. Let's get right to the birth of Ian Duncan Stewart. This is January two, nineteen thirty eight, in Glasgow, Scotland, and his mother is named Maggie. She's an unmarried waitress. Tell us a little bit about Ian's life right from the very beginning in Glasgow, Scotland.
Well, he had a I don't want to say typical, but it seemed to be fairly typical back then. Quite a few brothers and sisters and uh, he he would be taken in and out of foster cares. They don't exactly call it that, but government care, so that you know that he would be taken away from the mother and they would him and some of the siblings would stay there for a period of time and and sometimes they would return and stay with the mother and father.
Sometimes they wouldn't. So he had really a back and forth kind of life and uh, kind of kind of a wild kid in that way, and no real discipline and and in that in that scenario, there was a lot of talk of abuse that happened, both physical and sexual abuse from different people in his family as well some of the people in the government service and churches that would house him and his siblings. So he had a very mixed up life at a young time.
You write that at nine years old he moved with the neighbors that he was given to. His mother gave him up to the neighbors for foster care, like you say, and then he moved to the suburbs of Glasgow and he didn't have access to his mother anymore. You talk about that he entered into the shadow Lands Academy for gifted children, and yet at the same time his violent
behavior was noticed and noted. You talk about him torturing animals, it's noted, but also that very early on in his childhood he was torturing children that he was from his neighborhood. And at fifteen years old he was caught for stealing and had a juvenile record, and he quit school and
he was taking any job he could. Now you talk about him finally meeting or pardon me that his father, Patrick Brady, coming into his life and tell us what happens with Ian afterwards, under the influence of Patrick Brady.
Well Patrick was an Irish sort of man, and he was a fruit seller and he at first hired Ian just to be a porter, you know, pack away fruits and sort and do things like that. And within a few months he was caught stealing and he was fired and arrested as well. And by that time I think he was seventeen. So he got sentenced to two years in the brit British Youth Prison in Hatfield. And so that was meant to reform young offenders rather than to punish them. So it was it was a prison offen,
you know, to help them get better. It wasn't like a punishment sort of thing.
You talk about. Fast forward now to November nineteen fifty seven. He's released and he has a new job and he's studying to be an accountant and so he's a talented guy and he works at a clerk as a clerk at this Millwards Merchandising wholesale chemical plant in Gorton, which
is just south of Manchester where he now resides. And you talk about Ian beginning his interest in reading about the Nazis, tell us how far he goes into with his interest in all things Nazi and also tell us about the meeting of Myra Hindley at this no words merchandising. How does this come about?
Yeah, so he's he's working and he works himself up to be kind of a lead in the in the plant. And yeah, he's totally obsessed with Nazism. And and just just so you know, there's a lot of feedback I get from the family members about this, and even during writing and afterwards, and I still have some friction because Ian Brady took it to learn the language inside and out. He wanted to do everything in German. He wanted to
speak it, act it, do all the customs. He drank his warm German wine, he had, you know, all German literature. He was totally involved in it. But in the letters later as we talked, just so this this points out, he said that he absolutely despised Hitler, but what he admired about Hitler was the ability of Hitler to be able to control people, to be able to set up whatever he wanted and make things functional, to make things work, and to make people obedient. And he was just you know,
in my words, he was blown away. But he was just totally obsessed with that. So that was that was his obsession with Nazism, not so much being a Nazi itself. Now now Myra came along, I believe it was a couple of years later, almost three years and sixty one, and she was a typist and so she would take dictation for people like him and other office people in
accounting and different parts of the firm. And at first Brady didn't spend any time with her, and according to some of her notes, she thought that he didn't like her and was kind of mean, but she had a huge crush on him. She would do anything to get him, as in she was just head over heels. So it was sort of a kind of that type of relationship right off the get go. They would eventually meet at one of the Christmas parties and get together and that would be the start of their relationship.
You write about Myra Hindley's beginnings and her broken family. Felt father was an alcoholic and would constantly beat her, and you include a story where a bully had knocked her out, had beaten her, and the father made her go back to that bully and knock him out. Otherwise he said he would knock her out. So just to demonstrate the kind of family she grew up and at eight years old when she met Ian Brady again, she was fascinated with him and as such she also decided
at his urging to learn to speak German. This is nineteen sixty three. By the time, in nineteen sixty three, what was the couple talking about and planning to do? According to Ian Brady.
Well, there's been a lot of stories on this. They would get together and they would go watch X rayed films and go back home and then they would see the two of them would only speak German at home, and they would read German and drink and he even had her dress more of a German fashion with the high boots and the hair, and it was just sort of that way. And they started making plans of making money, and so the idea was to rob banks, and that's the general consensus.
You talk about the plans that they did to rob banks, and there was rules that Ian had set out so that they could avoid detection and arrest. So everything was written down and had this master list. And they also at that time also his interests extended to photography, and so he built a dark room in his home and start taking nude photos of Myra Hindley. Of course, at some point we introduced her. You introduced Myra's sister, which
is named Maureen. Tell us what how Maureen gets interested and in contact with Ian Brady And what did Maureen discuss with Ian Brady.
Well, Maureen came along and she was she was a little bit more shy, she was a little bit more timid, and she didn't have the confidence of her sister, and she was dating different people and and one person in particular, his name was David Smith, and she eventually got pregnant with him, and so she but at that time when he was doing pictures and doing dark rooms, he offered to take pics, some pictures of her, and that would be in his words, he said he was doing it
so that she could give it to the boyfriend, David, you know, so some erotic pictures, you know, and and things like that, so you know, And and that's how they met up with David. And David was a person that needed money, and so Ian Brady thought him as a perfect candidate to bring him in on the bank robberies.
To add to this story as well, Maureen tells Brady that her new boyfriend had been seen with Myra's neighbor which was named Pauline Reid, and she thought that David was still or she believed that David was still playing the field. And to add to this, the Hendle family didn't like David. They thought he was too young, and they thought they knew he had a record, and they also they just didn't like him. They just didn't think he was suited for for their daughter. Maureen. Now tell
us what happens with this quest for money? What David Smith has to have wants to that money. But Ian Brady believes that David Smith might be a candidate to help them in their At first, when they think when they're planning robberies, why do they think that David Smith would be a person that they could trust.
Well, well, David Smith was on you know, on the wrong side of the track. See, he never finished school. He had he had a lot of criminal activity in the past of stealing things. He was kind of a just a wayward kid. He was a year younger than Maureen, and he didn't seem to have any uh, any problems doing anything. And he started hanging out with the couple a lot. And when you mentioned that, when they saw Pauline read, yeah, they his sister Myra for sure thought
that he was still playing the field. He and Pauline Reid was their neighbor. And when she came home, she wants to know why he would be hanging it out with her when you know she's he's got her sister pregnant. So and you're right, the family couldn't stand him. He was a criminal, no schooling, bad behavior. It was just it was just all the way around, just the wrong person. You know, you write that.
On July twelfth, nineteen sixty three, Pauline Reid is on her way to a dance at a social club minute walk from her home. She'd called a couple of friends to come along, but they refused as alcohol was being served there. As she is there, there's a black van with Myra in that van. She asked Pauline where she's going to advance? And of course this Pauline recognized Myra because there were neighbors. What was the ruse that Myra used to get Pauline into that car and to the Saddleworth Moor's area.
Well, she had said she'd lost a glove, which which was an important thing back then, and when she was up there, and because they had time before the party would start. She offered to give her a couple of
records as well if she'd come help her. And so the story is that she got in the car and they drove up to the moon and they would go looking for the glob and you know, according according to Ian, he was waiting across the street with his motorbike and just sitting and when he saw a person that he thought would be interesting or someone they could pick up, he would flash his light headlight at her, and that's how she knew who she was supposed to pick up.
So that that's kind of the story of how we hear it originally, and so that's why she picks her up, takes her out to the moors, and the couple is just sitting on the back of the little van that she had rented, and they were going to look for the glove, and along comes Ian and that's how the that's how it started.
What do they do to this young girl?
Between them, Well, there's two versions, but the main the main idea is according to Hinley, Ian Brady uh took Pauline read and they walked through the field looking for the glove, while Myra was going to stay back and keep an eye on the on the car, I guess. And about an hour later, Ian came back by himself and said, hey, you know, come with me, and they went to a spot where they had pre you know, planted a shovel and then he went to get that
and uh. And then when they got to Pauline Reid, Myra said that Pauline Reid was what had her clothes all back on, but they had been disheveled, so she had obviously been raped, she thought, but she didn't know for sure. And then she had been strangled. And so what they did was they buried the body and in essence came back after that. But Ian Brady had a completely different story. Ian Ian Brady, you know, said that said that what happened was that he had no idea
who she was going to pick up. Hindley was going to pick up who she was going to pick up. He was just going to follow them there, and by the time he got out there, basically she had already attacked and raped Pauline Reid, and then she ended up dead and buried as usual. So you kind of have two sides here of what really happened. It's hard, you know, So that's kind of how I write. I wrote the book so that people would understand kind of how each of them goes at it and how each of them
explains it. But I think by the time you get through all of the crimes, you start to realize whose patterns sound more accurate and who doesn't.
Yeah, And then that's why I say that I think the Ian Brady versions seem to be more likely truthful, since he has no self interest in protecting himself in this. So anyway, we'll get to that a little bit later. You talk about that there was no there was no police leads in this whatsoever. After this, and two months later, Ian and Myra are back at Moore's hanging out again. They go there to drink. But what they saw that
was the North Sea Gas Company were digging. What what did they do as a result of this gas company digging in the area where the graves were or the grave.
Was, well that that really freaked them out, right, of course, they were like totally in shock. They didn't know what they were going to do. It was so close to where it was. They were so worried that the body would be found. You see, because at the time, Pauline was considered to have just met a guy and ran away. That was kind of the concept. Sixteen year old girl and she just, you know, she wasn't getting along with her mother and she just took off and was gone
that way. So and it seemed to it seemed to satisfy a lot of the people. So so that wasn't so people. So that's why when you say the police
weren't really looking by then. So when they had gone up to the Mors, which they liked to do all the time, and they realized that one of the big companies was planning a big pipe groupe through where they were going, they knew there was going to be trouble, you know, so they decided they would have to changed the locations, you know, of where they're going to start burying people and where they're going to start hiding out you know things.
Now you say, they decided to go to a new area for their next victim, and so they went to a place called Ashton under Lean and they went to this Ashton market. This time they rented a car. Again, this is part of their devious plan to change cars and avoid anybody seeing patterns with these people. As in terms of witness you also write that at the same time, just a coincidence that President Kennedy's assassination is all over radio and TV. And you introduced this Sheila and Pat Kilbride,
and that's the parents of John Kilbride. He's twelve years old, November twenty third. Now he's asked his parents to go to the movies with his friend, and these boys. After the movie decide to go to the market because there's an opportunity for these boys to make some extra cash at this market. Around six o'clock, you write that Pat, pardon me, that John Kilbride's friend, John Ryan, decides to go home. So what happens to John Kilbride and how does he meet Ian and Myra?
Well, yeah, so a lot of the kids did this, so you know, after the show and then it was the same time that the market was closing up and they could get a few extra coins. Were helping clean up things and sometimes they get some food or left over things. And so the two boys stayed and it
was becoming really bad weather, fog came in. It was six, it was dark, so the one boy left, John Ryan, he did leave, and so Kilbride was still at the garbage bin when he left and was going to stay there as long as he could to make a little bit more money if he could. And what happened, of course,
was Brady and Mayra found him. And again the stories are different, but basically Mayra was the one that would approach the boys for sure, because you know, even if the variance is in their story, it was much easier for a pretty girl with blonde hair and and address to come up and speak nice to the boys and say, hey, how are you doing? And and and in that particular case, she went up to him and said she had lost her glove, and you know, and so she wanted to,
you know, get she wanted some help. And when she took him to the cars again, she had some seventy eight albums, which back then seventy eight was the common play speed for a record, and she said that she would give him a couple of records, and and that's how they got him in the car and they were going to go look for the glove, and they drove to the moors. And it's the it's kind of like the same old story there now on this particular case.
And what I found with all of these cases that we have the evidence and that they were charged with. When it was a boy, it was always Ian Brady that would attack, sexually assault and killed the boy. When it was a female, it was always Mayra Hinley that did that. Sometimes she needed help killing the female, but she was the one that would sexually assault the females. So they were finding people for themselves to assault and using each other to do that.
Yeah, you write that they raped, well, she held them down as Ian raped the boy, and then of course they buried him. And you say though that in the months following this murder, Brady broke one of his own master rules and wrote John Kilbride's name in his master Planned book. And we'll talk about the significance of that later.
Now you introduce another vict from Keith Bennett. Another twelve year old vanished June sixteenth, nineteen sixty four, and he lived in Longsight with his stepdad, Jimmy Johnson, and his mother was named Winnie, and she was seven months pregnant. Just to add to the horror of her son disappearing. She was with her son and then they were at the crossroads and he was to walk to his grandma's house. Winnie didn't find out to the next day when Grandma asked, Hey,
how come Keith didn't come over? So that's when she found out that her son was missing. You talk about though, with police work, who becomes the prime suspect in Keith Bennett's murder or disappearance.
Yeah, you know, now, the Bennett case is a really, really hard one and Whinnie at the time was pregnant with Alan Bennett, who s a lie still right now, and he's been in a terrible way since he's had several breakdowns. He's had several times and he's the family is really really torn by this, and that's why the introduction was about the lost soul, because they call Keith Bennett the lost soul because he was the one that
they never did find. They never found his body. And I bring that in because, yeah, they right away the stepfather, Jimmy Johnson, was the one that they suspect it right from the beginning. And you've got to remember with Pauline Reid before they thought she was a teenager run away, so there was no tie to that, and the same with John Kilbride, So there was no mental element among the cops or even the public that there's some weirdo going around stealing boys and killing them and stuff like that.
So it wasn't it wasn't on their mind. So they did typical police work right away. Keith Bennett's missing, Who's to blame. It's the stepfather, you know. And and that's how it starts, and it and right to the end. Jimmy Johnson, you know that he had it just it ruined what life he had left. He never ever was normal again. And Whinnie stayed and fought right to the end until she died. She was out digging still in
the moors right up until the day she died. So that this whole family was was was torn apart and left in a terrible situation because of this whole you know. And and so you know, we have both Hindley and and Brady's take on what happened, and this one I take definitely as more Brady's take. It was a boy Myra of course attracted him to uh where he needed to be for them, and Hindley raped and and and
killed him and they buried him. And to top it off even more with this, after they were caught and in prison, Uh, both Hindley and Brady went out two times each for the police. Uh, made a big circus with all the helicopters and the press to show them where the body was buried. They're going to show them it. They're gonna, they're gonna, we're going to find it for you, for Winnie and and all this stuff. And they never did, and it never was and it it was pretty tortuous
on the family. And that's why even that's why in the introduction to the book was kind of they had a memorial for or Keith Bennett, and I kind of put it in a way, it's not it's not written exact true to how the details happened. It's it's written exact true to the emotional status of what the what the family was going through and how they never found Keith and and how much that affected the rest of their lives. And wanted to make sure that was key.
It was so important to me that people read that right off the bat and really learned that see how much these cases caused so much grief in families, for generations, for the whole general. It just it it just goes on and on and on, and you know, so finding the body, it's not that it brings closure, but what it does, is it it helps the family to accept
what happened and then to sort of move on. Then they also have a place to come and grieve their lost child, and that's something that these two took away from that family.
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Absolutely you right now what would normally be a happy event. But August nineteen sixty four, Maureen is now eighteen years old. She marries David Smith, who's sixteen, and Maureen is seven months pregnant. You write that none of Moreen's family attended the wedding, and so Brady and Myra take the couple and they go to of course, to saddle Worth Moors to celebrate. And at that point, Brady asks Smith if you know, if he'd like to help out make a
little bit extra money. Myra moves in with Brady. They got a new place and December twenty sixth and Leslie and Downey ten years old. Leslie and again it's a different time, but she's ten years old and her and her brother they go to the fair and they run out of money and the brother leaves Leslie there. She's Leslie's watching something and she told her brother and the others that were with her to go ahead, she'd catch up later. How does Myra, what does Myra do with Leslie?
How does it tell us a little bit about this altercation?
Well, kind of the same old you know this, this had become a real, real pattern, and Maira had become very very uh, I guess talented if you want to put it. It's it's not the word I wanted. But she became very good at spotting children or children that were alone, and uh, picking them up in places like fairs or in parks and and things like that. And you know, so it wasn't it wasn't hard for her to you know, be very acquainting to these children. And
and so that's how it happened. And and so she of course, uh this time other was the first time though that what had happened was Ira had got leslie and downing to come back to their place. It wasn't they weren't going to uh take her to the moors and and and things like that. They decided to change and uh do something at their house. So so that's
kind of how it was. And and so they got her come back and uh, and that that one was one of the worst ones of all of them because the detail behind, Yeah, when they when they when they said come along for a ride, and the way they hit her behind the boxes. Of course, according to Myra like that. I want people to read those sort of things to see the differences. But again, the idea of it was that they actually made a recording of it.
When they got the girl home, she was ten, they had her up tied up in the one of the upstairs bedrooms, and they had also put on some sexual gear or clothing for the ten year old to be wearing. And I transcribed the recording, the one recording that we had that was in court. And you see, and why
it's real important for people to get that. I don't want to get too detailed about that is because you'll see that the way it was transcribed and the way Myra explained her story about how Mayra said she was told to fill the bath water and stay downstairs and watch out the window and all that. But with the recording, we knew that Mayra was up there, and in fact, she was the one screaming at the girl and was also scream I mean to shove it in her mouth
and all this. She was doing the real violent stuff. So it kind of it's it's better for people to read that because then they really understand how how deceiving and how how Myra really was about taking part with having sex with this ten year old and and even strangling her with a silk cord. It's just and so that and that's the only reason I did put the transcription in there. It's not like I was trying to get gross. I wasn't trying to get some sort of
fascination out of it or something. I just wanted people to realize how she how she portrayed herself in her own statement, and then what what really went on in the tape.
M H, Yeah, you you talk about again the soon to step dad, Alan West is interrogated for several hours with this as well. Again the same pattern of looking to the obvious people first and trying to eliminate them, But that traumatic interrogation for the Alan West or any step father, any father would be is included here as well.
In April twenty fourth, nineteen sixty five, the baby that David Smith and Maureen Hendley have it dies and so it dies of bronchitis, and you write that this has them even more involved with Ian and Myra because there's no support from their families or friends. And then the couples together start going to the moors even more on a regular basis. And Ian Brady, you write, gives Smith
books to read. Again he was interested in Minekomf, but he also gave books to Smith like books from Marquis de Sade, and emphasized certain passages asked in the books, like you write that should murder be punished by murder, So he was trying to groom the Smith guide, believing that there would be a loyalty in the family so they wouldn't go to the police, and that he could
get this accomplice. On October second, you write that Brady tells Smith that he had killed before and he had the photos to prove it, and he then he claims that he would do another murder just to prove his ability. So October fifth, you write that Smith returns the books Brady had loaned him, but Brady gives him two suitcases, and inside those suitcases is what we've just talked about spoke about is the tape recording and the photos of Leslie and Downey. Also in that suitcases are books of
sexual perversions, gun cartridges, and few letters. And so this was headed to the Manchester train station up to a locker where Myra and Ian would stash these suitcases as part of their master plan. At the same time, Smith comes over to their home and says, look at we're going to be evicted from our place. We don't have any money. So when they asked for money, what does
Brady do. Does he offer to give them the money that they need for rent or what does he offer as a solution for Smith and Maureene to make money.
Well, in his terms, he was let's go roll a fag. They basically were going to go to a homosexual place and bring home a man and rob them and back then it was still illegal to be homosexual, and so the person probably wouldn't say anything, so that they would go go to the place, pick up the man and steal his wallet and show him on his way and nothing will happen. And see that This is a really interesting story too, because I know the way that it's
portrayed is not the way that it happened. And we find this out later, Like why they left the suitcases at the train stations was because they had they could leave them there unchecked, and they had like a little pick up places there. But what was going on for years is that Ian Brady was going to train stations
and picking up men. In Manchester at that time in the mid sixties, there was a few parks, but the main place to pick up other men that wanted to be with men was on a train station, and that's actually where he picked up Edward Evans. But initial story that David Smith told the copse was not that it
was that they met at a pub. So David Smith lied throughout the first story to the police, which made me question what he really knew and what he didn't know, because however you take it, you know, he said that he waited at home with his wife in his apartment, and and then Myra came over, you know, real late at night, knocked on the door, said that Ian needs your help, and he came over. And even that is
different between the two of them, it's confusing. But either way, he comes in and he and Ian brady Is starts hacking up Edward Evans, the guy the homosexually picked up at the bar, and and you know, David Smith of course said so I had nothing to do with it. I helped him clean up, and so did Hinley. And in fact, Henley got away with that in the sense that they had no real evidence to prove that she
was in the room during the killing. But that I still think there's some things missing about this killing and what went on, because the things just don't jive with any of the any of what they said.
You right, that Ian snuck up on this Edward Evans, seventeen year old that he had lured into his home and then said from behind the couch he had an axe, So we start trying to hit him with the axe. He of course, he wasn't totally surprised, and then turned around and the axe bounced off his forehead. He hacked at him another ten times and still couldn't kill him. And then according to Smith, I guess he handed the acts to Brady, handed the acts of Smith so that
those fingerprints would be on there now. According to Smith, he was involved with this taking the body upstairs in the course of this altercation. Apparently Brady had sprained his ankle. They put him up in the upstairs room because Brady thought, what's the rush and besides, I have this sprained ankle here. But Smith goes back to the home that he shares with Maureen, and one way or another, Maureen is told.
What does he tell Maureen about what he had done the night before with Ian Brady and Myra and what as a result to Maureen and David Smith do.
Well, you know, he told them of the plan of robbing and that uh there was just supposed to get some money, but Ian Brady uh had had killed him and Andy. He said that he felt threatened and so she, Maureen talked him into going to the cops. And that was the basic idea. Well, and and even some of that story is not what it is either. I've written in how they went to uh, you know, a phone box and called and the police came and got them,
and there's there's, there's all sorts of variations. But eventually they went to the cops and they told them the story, and that was the first time the cops looked into it, and they decided to come back to Ian Brady and Myra Hindley's house and then they decided they were going to check it out, and that was where it all started.
At you, right, though, that there wasn't part of the master plan. Was that if they were to be caught, that tell us what this plan was in case they were caught.
In terms of the gun, well, well, I didn't want to give away that part for a particular reason for something later.
Okay, Well, when you talk about the police search here, now you write that according to the killers themselves, that they cleaned up as much blood as they could for the three hours, and they tied up the body in a fetal position and put it in the bedroom. When the police come bang on the door, Myra tries to say that her husband isn't home, and they catch Ian by surprise with that as well. Though, what is the mistake the misstep that the police do and why that
Myra is not arrested for a few days later. So tell us the circumstances and why the police made the arrest of Ian Brady. And again, not at at at the time was David Smith arrested either. Tell us about this how this worked?
Well, well, I think I think with David Smith, they were thinking he was on the up and up and he was probably would be a witness. And so when they first showed up to the house, yeah, they surprised them because the cop wore a baker jacket. Excuse me, when she opened the door, she didn't know it was cops, right,
she thought it was a brad man. And what they did was they searched the basic part of the house and there was nothing, and then they went upstairs and then there was the one room and it was locked, and so they wanted to see in it, and Myra said, no, the keys at my work. And they said, well, we'll take you to your work and get the key and come back then. So of course she all of a sudden found it. And so then they went up through the room and they found the body, and.
They make their rest of Ian Brady. And you say that what you write a book is it takes four days later October eleventh, nineteen sixty five, un til Myra's arrested for an accessory. But in that four days, what does she do in terms of some of the evidence and those master plans that.
We spoke about, Well, her whole idea was to make sure they were all all taken care of rap you know, and hidden away. And during the days when she was out as well, they the police took her dog and they were took her dog for some testing and the dog died, and of course she blamed them for killing the dog on purpose. And it was really about the way the hares were found and how they were found in different parts of the body. And in fact, with Edward Evans, with.
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They knew that Ed Evans and Ian Brady had been naked together, and it was suggested that they had actually had sex before the killing, because all of the hairs were found inside of their clothes on their body, so they both must have been naked on the carpet and in the front room. So that was one thing. So
that's why they wanted to test the dog. But again she thought that the police had, you know, it killed it on purpose, and so her idea was to make sure that everything was hidden and or put away or destroy if she could.
You write that Smith told police of the suitcases at the train station, so the police found the locker with the suitcases, and there are nine photos of Leslie and as you write in poses that so disgusting, like she's
praying for her life, kneeling down, so outrageous. Photos of Leslie ten year old, and the tape recording of the torture, which you have included that transcript for readers, and also you write about those photos that they did they saw so that they used that information to try to find where these people were buried at the moors. They gave
immunity for David Smith to testify against a couple. And in October sixteen they found Leslie and Downey's body, and you write the horror of the mother and eventually had to listen to those tapes, didn't.
She Yeah, yeah, And in fact even they couldn't even take the like in trial trial and when even the reading of it and stuff, uh was it was just too too graphic and especially for the Times, not as
much so now, but definitely back with the Times. And then all of the pictures and they had to describe all the gear and and you know, you really had a play by play of how your ten year old was tortured and had sex with and killed, and you know, it's just it's something that you know, it's it's one of the most awful parts of the case.
You write that police also found the body of John Kilbride and that was December second, so there was charges against Myra and Ian Brady for that. You write also that the death penalty in Britain, the Death Penalty Act was passed, so the only possibility for these monsters was to be life in prison was all they could be. You write about the circus that was the trial. I found it interesting tell us about the protective measures that they did, that they installed in that court, and why.
Well they well, with their courts are set up differently than than than than ours over here, and the people on trial, so Hinley and Brady are up on their own little stadium. It's it's almost like an up little stage there, and they actually had to put the bullet proof glass in around it. And there was so many people trying to get in and kill and there was a bomb scare, and one of the parents had had broke into the court with a gun, and there was
tons and tons of stories that were going on. Then it became it was just so high, you know, the trial of the century. I think, oh, there's always one, isn't there? And this was at that point. And I think the worst part was was because everybody it was all dealing with children and the suffering, the raping, and how they were killed, and they were cruel, cold blooded murderers, and just people didn't know how to handle it. In polite society you might say mm hm.
He also talked about the the plexiglass or the protective measures for the threats against this couple, but also that that Ian Brady would spit on witnesses. So it was also to protect them from being spat on by this killer, wasn't it.
Yeah. Ian Brady has or had a real high opinion of himself. He's a very smart man and read well read and understood things. And and in a lot of the readings I put in some of the some of the different things, I thought that there were point poignant about the letters he had he had written, and you know, he sort of he he sort of felt what he did to these children was something that was almost expected. I don't want to say deserved, but it was expected.
His behavior was what it should have been, and he should have not been in prison for it. And he wrote a book called The Janice, you know, the an he talks, yeah, and he talks about all the other serial killers at de Sime in it, and he talks about how the things that they understood and don't understand and even when when you're saying and how the early parts of his story were that he used to torture animals and stuff, and how he said that that never happened.
He loved animals. That a real serial killer that's you know, destined, such as himself to do what he's supposed to do, would never hurt an animal. So, like you know, he gives lectures on how the psychiatrists and the whole profiling of today's society is wrong, and it's based on a lot of formulas that are inaccurate. So he kind of takes it apart. Just it's a totally interesting character, not what you expect. It's the least I can say.
Certainly too, that this story does not end after this trial. You talk about the trial, one hundred pieces one hundred and fifty pieces of evidence. David Smith was the star witness. They pleaded not guilty, of course, but they were convicted and sentenced to life. There was eighty six witnesses and they said goodbye to each other, Ian and Myra one last time before they would not see each other again. However, they did write letters from each other once a week for quite a while in German.
Right, Yeah, yeah, they were they they seemed to be in love and they seemed to be very connected for about five years. And the breakdown came when Myra Hindley decided she would tell them where that body of Keith Bennett was right, and and that's was the breakdown because because she could go up, she could actually get parole, believe it or not. So yeah, so so she was going to do this in order to set herself up to be in good light for parole. And uh and
when Brady heard that, he got mad. And then so Brady offered to go first, and that's when the whole charade started. And he went and couldn't find and then she went, and then he went and she went, and nothing came out of it other than a circus and more upset for the family. And so, yeah, they had stopped writing then, and the few things that he wrote about her back then was pretty pretty treacherous. He said
some awful things about her. He suggests that they didn't even have a relationship that was sexual, that they were just helping each other achieve what they wanted. They understood each other. Yeah, it was pretty pretty crazy stuff.
You're right too. In nineteen seventy three that Myra found love lesbian prison official and then from there they with a trustee, they planned to escape from the prison.
Yeah, that didn't work out. No, it didn't work out, but they made a big plan and she fell in love and her in this guard and other other inmate were gonna do it and break out, but they got caught, the guard got fired and got sentenced to five or six years something like that. Not real heavy. I'm surprised,
and and that that that was a wash. But it's interesting because, uh, Mayra Hindley must have had an incredible charisma about her, because even speaking to people afterwards, the head of the church said, uh, he said that he
would trust her with his own children. Uh. The minister that that that runs and said that she was a beautiful person and that uh yeah, and uh, I just and she's found God, and uh she she should be let let free and and he would have no problem if she's stayed with him and took after her kids. And it was just I don't understand it. But it's not the first time that's happened with these kind of prisoners, is it.
So you write too that two decades later, a psychiatrist diagnosed Brady as a psychopath, no surprise. And with this he had a hunger strike which went from ninety nine to twenty twelve. And you don't really say what the reason for that is. We talked about this. Actually him getting published from this Pharaoh Publishing called the Gates of Janice, espousing his philosophy and theories and just his take on life. But you also write that in November twenty ninth, nineteen
eighty four, Sunday People journalist Fred Harrison visited him. This was the first person to have visited him in nine years, and he was asking him questions about Pauline Reid, Keith Bennett's murders and this book eventually was Jennie of the Moore's Murders. What do you make of this or tell us a little bit about the interviews that he that he agreed to and what he said to Fred Morris, Fred Harrison, pardon.
Me, I think they're probably the best you're gonna get.
Uh.
He did an incredible job at getting a lot of things out of Brady. And do you know he he was able to get more of the truth out I think, and and so so a lot of the a lot of what you get out of there is it sounds very realistic. It doesn't sound like there's any pretense. Uh. And and Brady kind of laid it out pretty much.
I think how it was well, his hunger strike was because it was originally he was put in in a insane prison, and because of a problem, they moved him into a wakefield, which was a real prison for you know killers, and he hated it there. And so his hunger strikes were always about trying to get be put back into a hospital prison rather than a than a you know, a real prison as they say. So that was that was his main beef with the with the
hunger strikes and stuff like that. But I think the best thing that you get out of Harrison's interviews is a lot about secrets, things that Brady did that we
still don't really know. Like there was times where Myra would take him to a certain part of town and leave him, or take him to a movie theater and she'd have to wait outside, she wouldn't be allowed to watch the movie with him, and then she would pick him up and bring him back home, and later two days later you'd found out about someone that had been murdered in the theater. And so there was just a lot of I think confessions and also some really unique
things that he said to people. I said during this interview about people, and so I think I think it opens the door to a whole lot of other murders and a whole other lifestyle that was going on with Brady that has been missed and probably will never come out now that he's dead as well.
He died in prison and she lived.
He died first. No, actually she died first. Oh, pardon me, Yeah, he just died. Yeah, he just died here just seventeen when we were actually writing the second part of the book. We got one of the last letters from him just before he died in seventeen. So yeah, it's yeah, and she had already passed.
Yeah, sorry, I knew that from a past episode actually, So for that mistake, I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking about the Moore's murders, Ian Brady and Myra Hindley serial Killers. This is the British Criminal's Volume three. This is a R. J. Parker publication. Tell us a little bit about your website and also refer us to your podcast House of Mystery for people that might not know about it.
My own website has just been put up alanar Warren dot com and it's got all the books or the different publishers or people, and the ones I'm working are now, the ones that are coming out this year and kind of future plans. And it does mention the radio on there as well. The radio show itself is just called House of Mystery at houseo Mystery dot com. It's based in Seattle, and it plays in Seattle and LA and it gets podcast later, but it's broadcast on the live stations. So but there you go.
Look for that absolutely great program. Thank you very much, Alan R. Warren for coming on and talking about the war's murder. It's been a pleasure, Thank you very much, and hope to talk to you again soon and I know we'll be talking again real soon. Thank you very much. You have a great evening you too.
Good Night, good night.