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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good evening. He could not stop what he was doing. It was either sex or suicide. It's often said that we will likely never understand how a person becomes a serial killer. However, I believe we can. In fact, we must if we are ever going to find a way to stop the sexual abuse of children. But it's not only the victims we want to save. We also want to stop our children from transforming themselves into killers. Arthur Gary Bishop and Wesley Allan Dodd had many things in common.
They were both psychopathic pedophiles and prolific child molesters who eventually turned to killing their victims. Both were executed for their crimes at their own request. Most importantly, both desperately wanted to know one thing before they died, how did I become a serial killer? This book is an attempt to answer that question. The book they were featuring this evening is the Mind of a Devil, The Case of Arthur Gary Bishop and Wesley Allan Dodd, with my special guests,
Doctor Al Carlyle. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for this interview, Doctor Al Carlisle. Hi, Dan, Yes, good evening, Doctor, welcome to the program.
Okay, yes, thank you. I'm glad I got you.
Yes, thank you very much. Let's get right into this. We've got a lot to cover and this is a fantastic book. The audience is going to love this. I extremely enjoyed your book about Bundy, and this is in the same vein incredible, incredible access that you had. You were employed at the Utah State Prison engaging in research on violent inmates, and the projects initially began when you completed a psychological assessment on Ted Bundy for the courts.
Now you say in your book you didn't want to speak with convicted child killer Arthur Gary Bishop while you read this maximum facility of the Utah State Prison Death Row tell Us how you came to change your mind and why.
Okay, yeah, my whole career was in the prison. He did various things in therapy and research and a lot of evaluations, and I worked primarily with violent people. And to talk to someone who's quiet violent, say a violent rapist, is one thing, but to talk to to someone who's killed children is totally another. And when Archbishop was sentenced to be executed, he came out and was on death row, and I went down and met with him and said, our doc from the psychology department and if there's anything
you want, let me know. And I anticipated they say, I don't need anything, thank you, And then I would have walked away and say, well, I did what I'm supposed to do and that's it. But he said two things. He says, first of all, he wanted to die for killing those kids, and he actually had to fire his current lawyer's attorneys because they said they couldn't represent him to die early, and he had to hire a new set of attorneys who would and then but he got
that approved by the court. And the other thing he wanted, he said, I want to understand why I killed those kids. How did I get to that? Place in the first place, and so I thought, boy, that's that's a good piece of research for all this stuff I'm doing on violence. And so that's we I met with him about two to three times a month until his execution. Then I was with him on the night he was executed.
Yes, Now, in this research, you say that he sent you volumes of biographical data about him, biographical data about his childhood. Now let's go back. I do, yes, as you do, you go back to his childhood. Let's go to his childhood when you say he's born in nineteen fifty two in Hinckley, Utah, because you really get it from him, really what went on, because he, as we've just mentioned, he really wants to know how he became his person. So tell us about his early upbringing. What he had told you.
Well, he came from an impact family. Both parents were fairly religious. Hinkley is a small town, very small town, and his grandmother, grandparents, grandmother and father lived close by. And in a small town like that, you know everybody,
you have friends, you have family. And he remembers he come home from being out doing something as a child, and his mother would have hot rolls that had been set out on the window silled cool off and he could smell those and he came in and had a hot roll and honey and butter and you know all of that. So he was really fairly happy as a child. There was no no sexual abuse, no physical abuse. Now, so it started out fairly normal way.
You talk about did also, sorry, go ahead, But.
And he was religious. He went to church and was quite active, and as he got into his teens he continued to get good raids. He he started to develop an interest, and it wasn't so much as sexual interest. There was more of a curiosity about boys, and he found himself something akin to being a little turned off when turned on when you would see boys. But he didn't have any strong desire at this point. You know, the desire grew and it got very powerful over time. But he got high.
Talk about school, go ahead, go ahead. Uh.
He got good grades from school. He was an eagle scout, and he was respected by people. Now we find he did have somewhat of a temper, but the cause of that it is basically unknown. It's just like a lot of kids who get angry. So but basically he was a fairly normal kid.
You talk about The religion though, that he did get involved with was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints. And we'll talk about later about a mission he goes through that's very, very importan in his development. Will say, now you say that he also what I mentioned religion is that because he had said to you that there was a strong belief that you shouldn't have sex with a woman a girl before marriage, and this
was a sin. So he did live in again comparative to maybe now, a fairly religious home, with those kinds of ideas open to him.
Yeah, but there was an interesting twist to all of that. He would hear religious people preach that it's moral to have sex before you get married and all of that, but nothing was said about it being wrong to have sex with the boy. Now, when he said that, my thought was, come on, all right, you got to be kidding.
You're not that dumb. He insisted on that that for some reason he came out with that interpretation it's wrong to have sex with a girl, but no one has said anything about a boy, and therefore maybe it's not that wrong. And he held to that all the way through. And it's a weird pod that.
He's a very intelligent young man too. We talk about he's very successful in school and business and in that department. But you also talk about I found interesting too when you talk about the bad temper, but you say, well he was, he grew up kind of normal. But when he did have as you mentioned, as you delved into this and got the entire report from him, that he mentions a couple incidents with you put them in about a baby pigeons and his yeah, and he's talk about that.
But then we talk about later that anger increasing. So maybe to talk about this anger that he exhibits, and the story tells about the pigeons.
He didn't have a general desire to hurt animals, but he saw the other kids with their b beguns shooting birds and other things, and so he at first he thought, okay, that's that's wrong. I don't want to do that. And but then he got angry at one time about something and he killed some pigeons and he felt bad about it. Now later on, later on, after his whole sexual habit had, Builton was extremely strong. He and he was living on
his own in Salt Lake. He would get some puppies and he loved a little puppies, but he'd get mad at him if they had pittle on the floor, he would hit him, and some he choked him to death and then he would cry afterwards. And some he just beat to death and then he cried. Then he missed dog, so he'd go out get another one. But this was a time when he had totally violated his belief about who he should be, what he wanted to be in the future. And so, yeah, he was very cruel. Later on.
You talk about this strong moral code that he believed to have, and then so you talk talk about him believing that he should pray to God for help because he kept talking about things being out of control. And this is earlier on. He even felt that things were out of his control.
Yeah, he was religious and he would go to church all the time, and you know, he became an Eagle Scout, and a lot of it was because his mother was quite religious and she was active in her church, and he always wanted to please his mother. It was very important to him. He started developing this desire or to see what kids would look like when they were naked and that and then he cuts himself and say he doesn't want to do that. He shouldn't do that, that's
not who he is and all of that. But so prayed, but nothing really changed. And of course we can't blame God for that. I don't believe, but nothing changed. But the thing he did not do. And you can sort of understand this, he didn't ever tell anyone, Hey, I've got a problem. I've got a problem and I need help. And it's to me a very strong principle is the person is controlled by the secret things that bother them.
Certainly, you talk about this challenge that he puts himself in. He is with the Latter day Saints and they go on missions, and he's picked to go on a mission, and he goes to the Philippines. He's twenty one years old. This is nineteen seventy one, and he already has he urges and he wants he thinks his sex life is out of control and his urges out of control. Tell us about this trip and what is accomplished or not accomplished when he goes to the Philippines. What happens there?
Okay, In the LDS religion, person if he wants to is asked to go for two years at their own expense. And they're sent somewhere to preach about the religion. And so the bishop approaches him and says, art, how'd you logic go on a mission? And he's thinking, yes, I want to because I will please my mom. And yes I want to because maybe then I can get control over these urges. It's starting to get out of hand and find myself sexually attracted to boys and not girls.
And so he was hoping that by going on a mission that God then would take away those urges and so you wouldn't have them anymore. So do you mean to see more about the mission? Now?
Sure? What happens? I mean, yeah, okay, absolutely.
So he goes to the Philippines and a missionary is with a companion and they go out and visit people together, and he's out there and he sees these naked boys and he's thinking, I'm not going to look at him. I'm going to control with the lucky landslops.
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Stown all this is not going to get out of hand. So he looks away, and he doesn't look at him, and he's very proud of the fact that he is controlling it. Well, he's there about a year and he's feeling good, except he is beginning to feel lonely and he's beginning to feel bored. You know, the same thing over and go over again, which is going out and meet these people and converting them and so.
On.
This one day there's this little boy who is in the room and he's naked, and he's sitting on a pot, going the bathroom in the pot in that room with him in the front room, and he finds himself getting turned on, really turned on that it bothers him. And then he goes and he's taking a shower that night, and he finds himself climaxing in the shower and it's not that he wanted to because he's trying not to that.
He climaxes in the shower, and then you find that this is one of the major turns in his whole life, because at that point he's feeling very guilty, and he's thinking, although this is not the eldest belief, he's thinking that I repented and God forgave me, and I was doing well and I was feeding his spirit and everything was
going fine. And now I do this, and therefore I have sinned, and God will be disappointed in me, and I won't have his spirit anymore, and therefore all the repentance I've done over the last year has been undone. And he gets very depressed it and now I don't know if it's the next day of riches. Very soon, he tells his companion, you go visit the people today. I'm
not feeding well. I'm going to stay home. So the companion goes out and visits some families and he takes a bottle of bottle of pills, wail of ashfood, and he's laying there, laying there thinking, so this is what it's like to die. And he's feeding peace because he's thinking all of my struggles will be over. Pukes him all up and he's just very sick. And then he tells his mission president that he he's depressed. He wants to go home. Mission president calls him in and talks
to him. And the thing he doesn't do, he doesn't tell the mission president anything about this sexual stuff. All he said is I'm depressed and I'm missing home and I like to go home. Well, the mission president talks to him and gives him a blessing, and when Art walks out of that, he feels energized. He's enthusiastic. He feels, Okay, I can do this, I can make it. It's going to be fine. And he is then made a supervisor over
some other missionaries. But Art is not one who can really tell people what to do, you know, he's passive. And then that doesn't work out so well, so he goes to another place. But he makes it to his second year and he comes home. And when he comes home, now a return missionary is highly respected the ward members and other people with family and cousins, and everyone looks
up to this person and says, wow, here's the return missionary. Great, he's been out there serving God for two years at his own expense, in which the parents have generally who wants who pay for this? And so he comes back and he's still feeling very disappointed and he feels like he doesn't want to be active. So he gets a job and the job is one where he works every other Sunday. He thinks, Okay, that's what I want to do out the brilliant plan, because that way I won't
have to go to church. And one day he's in church and when the leaders come up to him and says, art in Sunday school, his teacher didn't show up. How the teacher can't come and teach this Sunday school class for kids are about fourteen fifteen years old? Could you take the class? And they're thinking, well, you know, return missionary can just step up and they've got lots to talk about and they can step into that place and
do a great job. Well, he bombs it and he apologizes to the kids and he's thinking, you know, I can't do this anymore. And so he's feeding extremely ashamed, and so he gets him a motorcycle with the money he's making and drives around on it. And one day he picks up this kid and is giving him a ride and he sexually fondles the kid, and then he's really ashamed of himself and he tells the kid, please don't tell anyone that the kid is related to a
lady who knows his Art's grandmother very well. And so in esthence you say, I've got to get out of here. I can't live this way. I'm not worthy of it. So he moves up Salt Lake and goes to school, gets his degree in accounting and does quite well in school, but he starts getting sexually involved. He's living with an aunt for a while and he's fondling some of her boys, and then he wants to move out because he thinks, okay,
they're going to tell. And then we get through the whole next section of his life where he's sexually interested in kids, and he develop helps this technique. It's taking pictures of the genitals of boys, and he has no interest in girls. No, he would like to get married and have kids, but he doesn't want to date. He has no interest in girls. And what he's doing is technique, and he keeps using this over and over again for years.
The technique is to tell a kid that someone is has something on him, and Art has to take pictures of the genitals, because the person who is doing this has a sexual desire for kids. So he says, look, let me just take a picture of your genitals and I'll send it this guy, and I'll give you fifty bucks for right. I won't take your picture of your face, just your generals. And and so the kids start saying, okay, you know, no face, no one can recognize me. Just
that takes a picture, give the kids fifty bucks. And he gets some kids doing that. But what's happening, the problem, sexual problem just gets worse and worse and worse. Then he he literally falls in love with a couple of young boys. It becomes very jealous, and this is a big part of him. And also Beefey Dodd who molested,
killed three boys, blessed a lot of kids. But Art put six thousand dollars down on the home and he gets a nice bed, and he has this one boy who is willing to come over and just sleep with him, and all of this, and he's starting to get involved sexually involved with kids beyond just the picture taking, a lot of touching, a lot of just mutual masturbation and things like that. But he gets fearful of these kids are going to grow up and leave him. He is
a very lonely kid at this time. He cut off his family and so they don't know just where he's at. He goes and talks to the bishop of his ward in Salt Lake and he tells the bishop he wants to be excommunicated from the church. And the bishop says why, and he says, because I've been immoral with a girl. I am being immoral with a girl, and I want to get excommunicated.
Now.
I ask him, what why you had such a strong belief in God before? Why now are you just cutting everything off, your family, your religion, your deity, all of this. And he said, I figured, if I'm a member of the church, God expects a lot more of me. But if I'm not a member of the church, God will expect less of me. And therefore, by the devil and maybe I can get control of this. So, in essence, he's cut up all of his support system and all he has. He's an accountant. He gets good jobs. He's
very good. He can talk almost anyone into hiring him. And he's good at what he does, bookkeeping, and he embezzles money because he wants to buy things for the kids need to think it enough. He wants to buy this kid a bike. He wants to buy this kid some games and all of that stuff. So now he's embezzling. And then he gets caught and people find out about the kids, and the kids leave him. But he's just very lonely, very empty. And now he's been picked up
on an embezzlement charge. And he said he embezzled what thirty seven forty thousand dollars something, Yeah, hem bezzled a lot of money. Yeah, And when he went to a halfway house, went to court in a halfway house. The judge, looking at all of that, says, okay, here's the return missionary. He's been very active in the church and he's never had been arrested. He's basically a good kid. And there
for will put him on probation. And he goes to that halfway out community center and he finds that the guy's really looked down on anyone who's been a sex offender. And he begins to think, if I get picked up on his sex charge, I'll go to prison and they'll rape me, they'll beat me up, they may kill me. Because I'm coming in on sex charge on a child, And so that brings us up to that point of the first Thomiside.
You talk about. October seventeenth, nineteen seventy nine, Alonzo Daniels. And he's working as a bookkeeper at a steel company, and so he he's short on money, like you say, for buying gifts. He's been already convicted of embezzlement. He's in therapy for that embezzlement, and so supposed to tell us, and he's also supposed to tell his probation officer about any children. He's not allowed around children. So tell us set up the situation where he comes into contact with
Alonzo Daniels. October nineteen seventy eight. Eight.
Yeah. Yeah, he's been a therapist and he had one therapist. He didn't care for her very much. But he got another therapist and he really liked him. And this is a highly respected therapist in Salt Lake, and so he liked going to him. But again, he was talking about the embezzlement. He wasn't saying anything about desires for kids.
And he's working and one day he comes home for lunch and he's in one of these apartment complexes where you have two apartments on the bottom, two on the top about them, and you have stead of stairs that go up and go up into the upper apartment. So he's downstairs in his apartment and a little Alonso is out there and playing, and Art finds himself getting turned on by the kid, and so he asked the kid
to come in. He says, hey, would you like to would you like to come in and inhabit sandwich and that type of thing, And so Alonzo came in and this, you know, he is supposed to go back to work about one o'clock, but he started puddling the boy as the boy was sitting at the table, and the boys started crying, and Art got scared, and because he just knew the kid was going to go kill his mom,
and so he killed a kid. And yet the book I tried to minimize just the way he did these things, you know, because his book is very hard to read. It's it's I think exceptionally good insofar as telling the details of how the person became this way as a killer, but it's hard to read because it's killing children. But he kills him in many years, the mom going out calling to the boy and going up and down, you know. And then that night he buries the takes a kid out,
buries him, feeding very guilty. He feels the house is haunted. He has nightmares. And but he said something that was very interesting. He said that when he killed the boy, he said, something left me. And he pointed to his chest when he said that, and is like and he equator to his conscience, and he said, it just left me. And after that I didn't have any difficulty killing kids.
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No, and the flip side of that is, he really did, and something interesting happened with Alonzo and then with Kim the next one. It was though when he killed them, he went into sort of a dazed state. No, almost like it wasn't him. It was like someone else. All the point knew it was him. But then with the last ones he felt the reality and he couldn't escape the feeding of reality. And there he's scared.
You talk about too that when you talk he is by now having an alias and Lynn Jones he's got as security guard and driver's license. There's a warrant out for him, so now he's so he's disassociating literally in that way as well. And then when he kills this Kim Peterson, it's interesting that Jess was a Jess gave gave him a ride, Art gave Jess a ride home.
He called to say he needed a ride. So he said he's cool and calm and able to be able to do these murders and adapt and then act normal with and then still have this relationship with these kids at the same time that he's gone much much further.
Yeah, and that's I think Danny Davis you're talking about there. Kim was the one who had some roller skates and Art says, okay, let's go out and go honting out here, and so Kim went with him, and then Kim says, you know I can't, and because Art wanted to sexually perform on him, Kim says, you know I can report you for this, and so you need to start giving
me money. And then that's when Art shot him and buried the body and said too because Alonzo was right there as well, and he said to Alonzai, okay, now here you have a friend, and then he went back and Yeah, Danny Davis, that was an interesting one because little Danny within his store with his grandfather, I think is Smiths in Salt Lake, and there's a lot of
interesting things about this story. But Danny happened to be alone and Art walked up to him and said, you want to play some toys if you do come with me and walked out, and the boy happened to follow him. Then he got out of the park a lont to grab the kid. Myself and another psychologist at the prison, doctor Alan Rowe, we were asked by the police to do hypnosis with some of the people who thought they might have seen the perpetrator walk out of the store.
And it's interesting all the different stories we got, you know. Okay, they came out and he jumped in his car and drove off. He grabbed his kid and put him in the car and drove off, you know, And none of that happened. But there are a lot of people who wanted to help and gave lots of different stories. And whereas when Art got the boy, he went around the back and over and crossed the street into his place. And yeah, and you know, you really feel sorry sorry
for the families of these kids. And he changed. Art changed his name, and he changed his identification, you know. And I asked him, I said, well, how'd you get another driver's lights, another social Security card? And he explained how he did it, And there were people that he
found he could do it with pretty easily. And he decided to stay in Salt Lake because he now had another name and a warrant was out for his arrest, and he figured as long because he didn't do anything to get arrested, that they wouldn't know.
Yeah, you talk about this eerie part of it again, very movie esque. He goes back to the store to get some snacks for the kid, yeah, and for pardon me, for his friends. Later after he kills Danny and then sees one of the employees talking to a police officer and he asked, well, what's what's going on and they said, well, somebody has misplaced their grandson. So, you know, pure, pure example of evil, certainly.
Yeah, And he feels real bad about that. He feels guilty, so he has to leave. And aren't felt guilty about these things over and over and over again. And there's a quote I have on him in the beginning of the book where he says that when you get this, he says, even after witnessing the grief and pain I've caused, still my innermost thoughts and desires are for evil. The god of Pedophiia has captured my heart, and no other desires seems so real, strong, insistent, or pleasurable is this.
I know the things I've done are sick and revolting to anyone who's normal. Yet I yet inside I feared that I would continue such atrocities if given the opportunity. The compulsion to do so is too strong for me to permanently overcome. Now, he said that worshiping pornography was just like worshiping of God, and he knew that he could never stop.
He also has one of the most disturbing quotes is that he to explain why he could continue so seemingly easily even though he was remorseful when you spoke to him and all these guards remarked, is that he said, you can only go to hell once.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's not going to be any worse killing a second person because of that, and he developed the capability and this is where the whole psychopathic process comes in. He developed the capability that when he started feeding guilt, he would put it out of his mind. And if he felt guilt about having killed a kid, it starts thinking about the next adventure, the next one.
And Wesley Dodds who killed the three kids up to the Northwest, he did the same thing and as the create themselves as a psychopath rather than being born with it.
Absolutely. Now you talk about too, that this escalation and acceleration, You talk about that he wanted the next time make the murder more memorable. And I think this is I've read this quite a bit, that it's never satisfying enough. And so even though you say he's totally regretting, but they are planning and fantasizing about things better than the last time, aren't they.
Yes? Yeah. And Wesley Dodd is a good one as an example on this. When West Dodd started molesting kids and he was a teenager around fifteen years old, and he was asked to babysit, and he went to babysit and there was I think two or three kids when I was a boy, and he did some sexual things with the boy, and then when he came home he thought, the next time, I've got to make a list of everything I want to do, because there are some things
I forgot. And it's like he's saying, if I'm going to do something as dramatic, powerful evil as this, if I'm going to go that far, then I might as well do everything I can and get everything I can out of it, or else I'm going to regret I didn't.
Absolutely Now, when let's talk just briefly about there's another two murders, there's five murders in total. Yeah, how does he finally get arrested and what happens that the police know the whereabouts and the details so quickly tell us about the circumstances when he is finally arrested.
Okay, so's he kills the child and then he waits for a while, and then he kills another child and waits for a while, and then the last two months, last two months, everything is falling apart. He's still working, he's doing fine in his work, but he's he's noticing on them. On the one before, he's noticing that he's
in reality. That is, he gets this one kid and he talks me into coming downstairs, and he's thinking of setting up a contraption down there where the kid would lay down and he could chain him down and then sexually melice him and kill him. And he's thinking of having a cage or something down there to do that.
So he gets this kid down there and he pulls out a gun, points at the boy and says, I want you to lay down and put these handcuffs put around the pole and put them on, and the kid talks him out of it, and then Art feels bad. He cries. He hugs the kid and he says, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. Let the kid go. Well, the kid knows the family and he doesn't kill that boy. And then he and the kid he's befriended from the scene mother and he spends some time living with them.
A few months. They're going to go to California to Disneyland, and so they planned the whole thing. But he gets this kid to come over, Graham Cunningham. He calls him and gets him to come over. So let's come home. Let's plan just some last details about stuff. We're going Saturday morning, and the kid comes over and he bless the kid, and then he kills him, and he's feeling bad about this. But comes Saturday morning, you know, well, the mother calls calls around because the boy Graham doesn't
come home. I think so at first, unit doesn't come home, and she calls around and says, our if you've seen him while he was here, I gave him a form to fill out regarding medical things on the trip, and so he left so she can't find him, and the next day he can't find him. She calls the police and they can't do anything that night because he's just
a missing boy. But the next day they start looking, and Saturday morning it comes and so Jess and Art and Graham are the three of the us supposed to go to California to Disneyland Arts pain for all of this, and but Graham of course is not there because he's deceased. And so the mother and you know, calling the police and Graham. No, Jess says, the mother will stay, We'll stay, you know, because Jeff really didn't want to go that much, and that's why you wanted Graham to, because Jess and
Graham are good friends. And so Jess says, hey, I'll stay and I'll help you look for him. And the men that says, no, it's okay, you just you and Art. You go ahead and go, And so they get an our card and they go, and paradomically, Jess gets on the phone and calls back and say, if you found him yet, No, he may have run away because he had threatened to run away once before. And all the
time Art is dead. They want to go to this restaurant Art has been to before, and he loves the food, and he's thinking, Okay, this is the last time I'll be here, and various things. He keeps thinking, this is the last time I'll be doing this. It seems like
subconsciously at least, he knows it's over. And so he comes back and they stop being in beaver Utah for the knight because I think Art has a massive headache, and come back the next day and the mother calls and said, hey, when you get back, the police want to talk to you. And the back and the mother asks Art about Graham and turns out that Art indicates or it shows that he's the last person to have
seen him. And then the police come and they start interrogating him, and they're only king for the connection to Graham at this point. But after a bit, after some hours of this, and then Art says to him, look, i'll tell you if you'll promise to give me some help, And of course Detective Bill says, oh, yeah, sure, we'll do that. And he said, look, yeah, I killed him, and I put the body in the creek up the canyon,
and I also killed these other kids. I'll show you where I put the bodies of the first two and the others. I just wanted some help. Well, he showed him where the bodies were, and of course they locked him up. He went to went to I got Nessa Sales is a good, good attorney, and she was his attorney. And but then he gets convicted and sent out to prison. And that's where I committed picture.
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dot com slash murder. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder. One more time to try it for free, go to zip recruiter dot com slash murder. Now, doctor, let's talk about Wesley Alan Dodd, and before we get into that, because I don't think we can go as far into the story as we did with Gary Arthur Arthur, Gary Bishop. But let's talk about some of the things the similarities in the Wesley Allan Dodd case. When you talk about the early life of Wesley Allen Dodd, it was different.
So let's start right there with Wesley Allen Dodd and his early upbringing and what was different.
Hey. One of the major things that seemed to have happened to West. He was the first child. He was a couple of years older, and a brother was born. A year or two after that, a sister was born, and the attention was put on the brother. And after Wes came to prison, his father visited him and said, Wes, when your brother was born, you just crawled into a
corner and didn't come out. And Wes said, he had all the toys he wanted, everything was great, and doing a lot of things with cousins, but he never felt like he really belonged in the family, and he didn't start out the art started out with the sexual attraction boys. West didn't. He would get out his bicycle when he was thirt eighteen, to get on his bicycle and go for long rides, and he came to this settling pond, and so he went step by step. He thought this
is great. And then he'd go out there, spend a lot of time, go out there, and he'd take off his clothes and sit there naked. Then he would walk a certain from this to that naked, and then he get on his bike and ride naked. And he built him a little raft and he got on that and be out there naked, and he thought, this is wonderful, is exciting. And someone came over the hill in the car as such, I could just go right into this water and I'd be fine. But he started being attracted
to boys and girls. You know, he didn't care. He wanted his sister and some others to show themselves naked, and then he would do the same and such. And then he laid naked in the bed and Dad says, Wes, you got to put your clothes on. And Wes says, but Dad, you go to sleep naked. Why can't I? And then Dad said, oh, damn it, do it anyway, and Wes would then would cut. Dad would say, oh for health, thanks God's sake, stop cussing. He says, you're cussing.
West would be angry because Dad can do it, but I can't anyway. So he started developing an interest in that. And the big turning point well, first of all, as a as an early teen in his junior high he was small for his age, she was young. He and when they would go in the shower, there's the guys that make fun of him, and one guy says, guy I'll give you some of mine. And everybody laughed, and West did no wise. Talking about you know, a girl said, hey,
westr Epidermacy showing. And so he looked down and see hees and zipped and she laughed and laughed laughed him. So you know, he was just humiliated. So kids, then, boys young or young or girls were something he really wanted. So one day he was standing up in his parents' bedroom corner room looking out the window. The street in front of him had kids coming from elementary school. And so one day when kids were coming down, he made sure there was no adults on the road, there were
no cards on the road. There was just a few kids, and he pulled out in his pants and he exhibited himself out the curtain and kids laughed, and one kids says, do it again, And he did it again, and someone actually went and got another kid to come back. And so this was a big turning point because he found the kids really liked it. And after about six weeks, and you've been exposed himself again and again and again. After about six weeks, a cop came to the door.
Didn't come in. The cop says, you know, a report has been that someone here has exposed himself out of a window, and Wes is upstairs. He's thirteen years old. He's upstairs listening to this, and the cop says, well, there's no charges, just can you kind of watch it and if it's going on, tell him to stop, and he leaves and west up there. Thought, this is one smart thirteen year old. The kids like it, parents don't care, the police don't care, and so he decided he's going to keep doing it.
Talk about one incident around the same time in seventh grade, one topic seemed to really fascinate him, and he saw a film one day. Tell us about his experience looking at something regarding the Nazis.
Yeah, he was fascinated by it. He's fascinated by the dead bodies he saw. He was also fascinated by national geography where he can see naked kids in some of the pictures. That he became interested in death and the sex, and so he would go to the library and check out everything he could relative to the concentration camps and the death things, and would look at any films he
could find. And then around this time there was a time that he and a friend of his in the house were watching uh cartoon, as I remember, and somehow it got switched and there was a naked woman there laying there, and then it was switched off again. It's just an accidental thing. And the dad came home and said, did you see that? Says yeah, West says, well, I thought it was a guy because the breasts were pretty flat.
And the dad laughed and laughed and laughed, and West felt very, very humiliated because you know, the dad says, well, you really don't know anything about sex, that, do you. So, But he found the kids. That was his his release, his enjoyment in life.
Now you talk about too another ramatic event, according to him, at fifteen years of a fifteen years of age, his birthday is July third, and in nineteen seventy six, he finds out about Dad in the hospital. Tell us a little bit about this sort of he puts it all that is very important, and it happened around the same time.
Yeah, he's about fifteen years old, as I remember, and dad and mom are going to get a divorce and they tell him and he's really angry about it because his birthday and Dad attempts suicide, is in the hospital, and he's angry and he says, well, they're really screwed up my birthday. And dad couldn't even kill himself, right, And so yeah, he has a lot of bitterness. And if that, he seemed to have been a guy who
never really did have any compassion. If there was ever a person who fit the true meaning of psychopaths from a child on as West Dodd, and that was the difference between Wes and Art, because Art kept feeding Gilly and he would put it out of his mind and go on doing it, but we never felt guilty. But he kept getting caught. He would spend some time in jail, and so he decided, then the only way he is going to be able to keep doing it is to
kill a kid. And so he's working at a construction site and the little kid is there, and he's going to take this kid out and kill him, but some workers come and see him, and West takes off and pick him up and question him. But a very fascinating thing in all of this is Wes has this big collection of pornography and he's only interested in kids. And he's living with a friend who has a girlfriend there
and the mother. Oh, he's living with the mother and the daughter comes and so Wes is with this daughter, Pauline, and she comes in. It's there long as she says, West, do you mind.
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I'm not eating you.
I lay on a sleep bag in your room and he says, yeah, sure, and she comes and climbs in bed with him, and this is first experience with sex and she's kind to him. Next day when he goes to work, she walks him out of the car and she kisses him and to him, it's absolutely wonderful because they get talking about having a relationship and he says, he says, wow, now I can be a family man.
And so he actually gets rid of his pornorgraphy. But then she disappears, and she's gone for about a year and then she comes back and she has a little boy, and she tells him, in the process of all of this a little bit more of bid. She tells him that this is his child, and he is a static. He thinks, wow, I now can be a father, and I can have a child, and I can have a wife, and we can have a family and all of this.
And that's when she said, this is wonderful. We're going to do this, but we need to move down to Yakima because I've got friends down there. And the girl's mother was with him. So one night they just Wes quits a job and they go down the Yakama stay in a hotel and the funds run out. His funds after about a week, and at that point then the girl and the mother go out one night, West stays
back takes care of the kids. They're all dressed up, and he figures, well, maybe they're prostitute to something, but that's okay because we need the money. The next morning, the girl's boyfriend, prior boyfriend comes and says, I'm taking the kids. You'll never see your son again, and he is devastated. So the kids are gone, Colleen's gone, and West calls his dad and says, Dad, I want to come home. His dad says, okay, come on, and so
he has enough money to buy well. He sells some tools and buys enough gas to get home and his mother, his father and stepmother now are going to go on vacation for a week and process. You know, he's tried Satanism before and it didn't do anything, and so at this time he's thinking of it again. And so oh, he says, Satan, if I killed kids and I dedicate their souls to you, will you give me some kids
to kill. And in the process of all before he gets up to his parents, he picks up this hitchhiker, and this hit shiker starts talking about child pornography and such, and He's thinking, Wow, this must be a sign from the devil. He's gonna let me do this, and so he decides, okay. He writes out about a multipage contract that Satan and signs it in his blood, and then he starts planning on killing kids. And in Labor Day
nineteen eighty nine is when he goes to Well. He goes to park a few days before and he scouts it out and he makes maps of it. But his objective is just to see if he can kill a kid, because he's thinking if he can, then he'll have sex slaves. He'll kidnap kids. And he can't find the ones he wants because they're with someone with their parents, with too many kids, they're too old. And then these two boys come and in their boys, and so he used this technique,
Hey come with me. Generally it's one of them. Let me show you some baby birds. But I can only take you one at a time because it might scare him. This time he says, okay, kids, come with me. I want you to do something. So he goes up to this other path. He gets them off the side. He kills the kids, and it bothers him because he blacks out and he can't remember such thing as he did. And so, but then within within a month he kidnaps
a boy. Now Wes, like Ard, had a couple of kids he fell in love with, and Wes has a kid. He fell a couple of kids he fell in love with, and so he's extremely lonely, and he kidnaps the boy and he takes him to his place. He molests the boy, and then they go to a store and buy some things, and they go to McDonald's and buy some food, and the boy is playing on the playground equipment, and West is talking to the kid's father and feeling very much like a father, and takes a boy back to the apartment.
And when it's coming morning, he knows he can't just leave the kid because the landlady might come. So he decides he's going to kill a kid, and he does and and comes back the afternoon and he takes care of the body. But then within a month he tries to kidnap another kid out of the show house and the kid gets away. And then then about a week he tries it in another show house and the kid gets away, and so he gets climbs in his vehicle. He's driving off. He gets out several blocks and the
vehicle breaks down. I don't know if there's a truck or a carpet that breaks down on the side of the road.
Please come along.
They know him from prior arrests and problems with kids and so, and they have a description, and so they're interrogating him regarding trying to kidnap these kids. And after a couple hours. You know his story is one of the cops said to him, one of the detectives, West, what would you do if you were us? And he said, I'll go search my apartment. And there's whoops, because he's got the details in his diary journal of having killed
the two boys, having killed all three. He's got pictures of this last one and his body and such, and so Wes thinks, Okay, I've done it now, and he confesses and then he ends up in prison on death row, and he wanted to die young. When I saw him on TV in an interview and wrote to him and says, would you be willing to tell me your story? He says yeah, and he wrote me up from that point,
which is about September eighty eight. He wrote me out about two hundred pages of his biography his life, describing every detail of everything, and send it to me, and he said. At one time, he says, the court has approved my early execution, so I don't have long to do this. So we're gonna have to hurry so we can get it done, because I want I want people to understand and to help it so that other kids won't be kidnapped or killed. You know, and so I
saw him up until December ninety one. Yeah, okay, that's wrong, on the first date December, and in a couple of weeks after that, by three weeks he was killed. And he was killed by hanging. And he when I said, but lethal injection is a better, more humane way to die, and he says, I don't want to. I want to die by hanging, because this last boy, in order for my landlady not the same, I put strapped around him
and hung him up on hooks in the closet. And he says, I don't deserve to die any better than how he did. And so he was hung.
You write about and you include a he wrote a pamphul in in prison when you meet a stranger or other bad people. Just briefly, what's the gist of that and what was his purpose of that?
With this, well, I think I think there's a couple purposes. What he said he was doing. He says, I want people to understand, and in essence, what he's saying there is, hey, if a stranger approaches you, run, don't talk to him. If someone tries to do something touch you wrong, tell your parents, tell the police, tell someone. And so On one hand, he's saying, I want to write this and even sketches out some pictures in it. I want to
write this so that it can help protect kids. And I remember one time when we were talking about the hair after when I was interviewing him, he is talking about God, and he just got tears in his eyes, you know, and someone reported after that the past he believes in God and he asks for forgiveness. So you know, we do get that killed at the end. Maybe just a fear, but I think so one thing is that
I want to protect kids, is what you're saying. But the other thing he seems to be saying, if he writes this and gets it out, people won't think he's such a bad guy. They'll think there's something good about him. So there's something genuine and something fulmy about it.
What's interesting, too, is that in both these cases, what he's saying, what Dodd says, is that you should do this, and you should this. Victims should do this. Run away somebody tries to touch you, because if anyone would have heated that in both of these killers cases, that would have helped them immensely. The people of the time, and people still do suffer from naivety and a real innocent time or a less innocent time.
Absolutely, if when Wes Dodd exhibited himself from the second story window, if the first time, some of the kids had to run off and got the police, got their parents and had come back, and if the police had questioned West, they had to take him down the station and says, okay, what's happening. You were You're the only one who could have done this because you're the only one who was home time, and so forth and so forth. No,
because West kept getting away with stuff. There was a time he was on probation and he's in therapy and he can't be with kids, he can't have kids in the home, and yet he's got this child in the home that he's molesting. And when the probation officer comes to check on him unexpected, it just happens that the mother of the child took the boy, either that day before or that morning and took him. So when probation officer came, there's no kid in the house, you know.
But he just kept getting away. And one of the big things Wes, and you see this with sex offenders often, especially child molesters, personally when they confessed, may confess, Okay, I did this and this and this and this, and I want help. But what Wes bloated about? And I didn't tell him about the other kids I'm molested, you know. And he seemed so sincere, so cooperative, that the judge and everyone else thought, Okay, this really is a good kid.
He's a good kid who just has a sexual problem, and we can get him some therapy and that will help, and then we haven't damaged his life, and we've kept society safe. But in reality, if they come away from the interview thinking the person speak and asking me about it is only has half the information. Wow, look how wonderful that I got away with the other half.
I got to say, doctor Carlyle too, that the difference. I think I know somewhat of Wesley Allen Dodd, read a book and some of the things that he's said, but I didn't know anything about Arthur Gary Bishop. But I would say, in comparing both of them, maybe you can give me a take on this. You say that the idea that somebody would want to be executed is rare. Somebody would want to find out why they did something. And you say that in the one case with Bishop
that these people were guards, experienced guards. Thought, man, we've never seen anybody this remorseful, this remorseful between the difference between Bishop and God. What I thought was interesting too, is when he talks about when Dodd talks about packed with Satan, pardon me, there seems to be a much
different sort of mindset in the end. There seems, like you say, there seems to be some ulterior motive for him to show remorse rather than Bishop seems to be again not giving him too much credit at all, there seems to be much more genuine remorse is there. Did you note a difference between these two people inherently in that regard, Yeah, very much so.
I think with both of them. One of the reasons for wanting to be executed early rather than putting in appeals over and over and over and again for ten twelve years before they finally get executed is their life is the kids. That's all they got. So when they get in prisoned, they don't have kids anymore, and so they're lonely, they're depressed, they're hated by everyone. They're if they're not on death row, they're on protection, and to them it's like, Okay, why keep living when the very
thing that is my entire life is gone? But with Bishop I think he felt more guilt. And when he was in prison, he would put earphones on and to whatever he could share, and there's a religious station and listen to that. And he asked me for some religious
music and I gave him some of that. And the night he was executed, he had the Bible into scripture right there, and as we talked in the evening, knowing that in an hour or so he's going to be executed, he's going to die, he wanted to talk about his mission, and he wanted to talk about God, and he knew that he was not going to be forgiven of that totally. He just knows. He says, I can't get what I could have got in the hereafter because of what I've done.
And he says the thing that bothers me most is having to face those kids and thereafter. Whereas with Wes Dodds had a lady and she had a son who established a relationship and would come out and seem and I think it was in prison a couple of years before I got executed, and the boy liked West so much She wrote a letter to the President of the United States that please don't kill my father, you know, stepfather. Please I need him. But I don't think that God
ever felt that guilty about what he did. He never talked about Satan again to me. It was just a thing that came up, and is life. I'm so desperate to have kids, I'll do anything, and if Satan is a possibility, I'll try that. Even though it's the second time he tried it, it seemed to work this time. But it's not like he worshiped Satan after that. He didn't known you about Satan or out any of.
That you do talk. I was just going to ask you something very very interesting. I wanted to ask you about this because this is disturbing and incredible you talk about that. He prayed, not expecting to have any guidance or help from Satan, but he figured he might as well. And he figured if he was going to pray, he might as well pray on the Holy Day, on the Christian Holy Day, which would be a Sunday, and he prayed to be able to kill three children. How many children did he kill?
Okay, the way that came up, he was playing a game and in this game, and it seemed like a solitaire, but he's playing it and he says, Satan, I want you to tell me how many kids you'll give me. That's where he came up with the three. And then on the Holy Day, that's when he did the contract. He'd signed it his blood and all of that, and he thought, this is good because it's supposed to be God's day and I'm worshiping Satan. No, so that's how he came up with the number three. And he did
kill the three kids. And he said, as I was talking to him, he figured then that Satan had actually given him what he asked for. And he never seemed to believe that the souls of the kids went to Satan. No, he didn't really know anything about Satanism or about the ceremonies or any of that. It was just, jeez, this is working, but very disturbing.
Now in comparison and comparing both of these and you've studied more than these serial killers, what do you think is a common thing? And we talked about humiliation at a young age and not being traumatic. Tell us the similarities in some regards, and I use that example where you saw similarities between these two very very prolific and profound child killers.
What's similar between them and also with serial killers, And a lot of people are very they're lonely when they're young, they don't fit in. They they start fantasizing, and there's a difference between fantasy and daydreaming. Fantasy is deeper. And when these guys get fantasized. You know, Art Bishop, when the police searched his apartment four hundred pictures of naked kids, and most of the pictures were just of the genitals, you know, and I said, aren't Why Why did you
have to have four hundred pictures? And a lot of it was just getting the kid to decide they'd be willing to have the picture taken. So a lot of
it was just the interaction with the kid itself. But they're only they start getting sexually turned on, and then they don't they it's a secret, they can hide it, they don't have to give it up, and they get into all of the masturbation with it, and then that starts really connecting them with this, and by the time they're fifteen, they're into it to such a point that it's going to be hard for them to get out of it, and so we archbishop both had that. With
our Bishop he wanted to change it. With Wes Dodd he didn't. West Dodd was how unhappy with it to go ahead?
Sorry? How important was the fear once they realized they were arrested in that fear of imprisonment and further arrest, How important was that in their decision to kill.
Well, with Wes going to jail multiple times and he would be given a longer sentence, but just to spend a very short time in there. Now it's different. Now, it's quite different now the laws have changed. But with Wes, that was why he killed because he didn't want to stop molesting and in essence he wanted a family. There's a family of kids who would worship him. With art Bishop, he didn't want to kill kids. He had no desire
to ever do that. And with Alonzo when he had him in his place and he felt he had to kill a kid otherwise Alonzo's going to go screaming to his mother, He'll be arrested and he'll go to prison. And after that he couldn't find a good reason not to. He thought, I can only go to hell once and to kill more kids is not going to matter. But then it gradually got to him and he fell apart more and more and more, until he literally set himself
up at the end to get killed. But so with our bishop, the first one was more of an accident than anything. And with DoD he planned it. In fact, he would try to desensitize to the thought of killing your kid to see if you could do it.
Now, this project, these interviews and this book, how long did it take you to put this together? And this is an incredible result. This research just tell us when this was done and how long this took you to put this mind of the devil together?
The after writing didn't take long. Collecting the information didn't take long because the only reason I wrote it is because I had the information and I hadn't seen another book in print that talked about the psychology step by step of how a person becomes a child killer. I thought, I've got this information. I really don't want to write a book on it, because who's going to read it. Who's going to read about so many months that killed kids? And so I just sat on it for the longest time.
And after I got the first Ted Bundy book done, I thought I've got this information, I might as well write it and if any police departments or universities or anyone wants to understand, at least it's in print. And so it probably took six months to a year the most to actually write that.
Well, I want to congratulate you on an incredible piece of work and a great read, a fantastic read, The Mind of a Devil, The Case of Arthur Gary Bishop and Wesley Alan Dodd. Doctor al Carlyle, I want to thank you very much, doctor Carlyle. Do you have a Facebook page or you do the have a website meet people might want to look at other work.
Yeah, they just go to al dot Carlisle on Facebook and they'll pull me up, or violent mind and they'll pull me up. Yeah. And anyone who wants to contact me and ask me any questions, I've got my email on there and they're free to call or write or whatever, and I'll be happy to talk to anybody about this.
Absolutely. Thank you very much, doctor Carlyle. It's been a pleasure. Hope to talk to you again real soon.
Have a great No, thank you very much, thank you
Thank you, good night, good night,