Lucky Land casino asking people what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Lucky in line at the Delhi I.
Guess ah, in my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have to say? Yes? You do? In the car before my kids pta meeting? Really?
Yes?
Excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky? I never win? And tell well, there you have it. You could get lucky anywhere playing at lucky landslots dot com. Play for free right now? Are you feeling lucky? Nope, we're not necessary boid. We're gonna bet my long eighteen plus terms and conditions of pluck se webs every details With.
Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere.
Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen the bride and groom?
Sorry?
Sorry, we're here. We were getting lucky in the limo and we lost track of time. No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up quicker than a guess registered. In that case, I pronounce you lucky.
Play for free at lucky landslots dot com. Daily bonuses are waiting, no purchase necessary board. We're prohibited by long eighteen plus terms and conditions applying see website for.
Lop Toad.
You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufansky.
Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about them. The beloved son of Holocaust survivors, forty nine year old George Cogan grew up in Puerto Rico before making his way to New York City, where he enjoyed great success as and antiques and art dealer until one morning in nineteen ninety when George was approached on the street by an
unidentified gunman and was killed in cold blood. Before the shooting, George had been on his way to his girlfriend's apartment. Mary Louise Hawkins was twenty eight years old and had once worked as george publicist, but ever since they became lovers George's estranged wife, Barbara, was consumed with bitterness as she and George hashed out a divorce. Barbara fueled her anger into greed, especially after a judge turned down her
request for five thousand dollars a week in alimony. Barbara, who stood to collect four point three million in life insurance, was immediately suspected in George's death, but it would take authorities almost twenty years to uncover a link between her lawyer, Manuel Martini Martinez, and the hitman who killed George. In twenty ten, Martinez agreed to testify against his client, and Barbara eventually plaged guilty the charges of grand larceny, conspiracy
to commit murder, and murder in the first degree. The book that we were featured this evening is The Millionaire's Wife, with my special guest, journalist and author Kathy Scott. Welcome back to the program, and thank you to agreeing to this interview. Kathy Scott, are you welcome.
I'm happy to be here.
Dan, thank you very much. Now tell us why. I mean, it's probably an obvious answer because it's such a fascinating story, but is there any other reason? And tell us the real reason why you decided, of all the stories that you could handle or write about, why did you decide to write about this story? What fascinated you about this story or compelled you, or what interested you in this story particularly? Well.
I was asked to, actually I was asked to if I was interested in doing it, and I barely knew about the case. And then when I started reading about it, and there's been a lot of media, you know, Number one, it was you know, it was almost twenty years old, and you know, it was a triangle typecase. But Barbara Cogan was a very sympathetic character, you know, the one
who was ultimately convicted in her husband's death. And so it it I mean, it had all the characteristics and I like to you know, I like to write about the underdog. Obviously her husband was the underdog. But it didn't it didn't seem that probable to me when I
started digging into it, that that she did it. And and you know, I did into it, and I was able to, you know, get a lot of sources and all the documents and read the trial, and it was it was a good story, you know, as you you pointed out, you know, when we were chatting earlier that it's it almost is fiction, Like I mean, you can't make this stuff up, you know what I mean?
Yeah, yeah, it's amazing.
Yeah, no story, I mean, it's the sad story the way George went down kind of and it was sad because Barbara just kind of get past the divorce. It was their divorce took two years and it ended, you know, the proceedings and everything else ended when he died.
Sure, sure, now tell us let's go back for our audience, because you paint the picture, of course of both characters in this, well all the characters in this. But let's start off with, say, George Cogan, who he was and what type of person he was like, and what was his background? Where where is he from? And give us sort of a character of what he was. Was he a good looking guy, musket you know, athletic? What was this guy like? And paint a little bit of a it wasn't.
He wasn't good, It wasn't. It was just kind of average looking, kind of pudgy, a little overweight, you know. So it was interesting that woman, you know, someone a very pretty woman was interested in him. Actually, let me turned this thing off. And his family was from Puerto Rico.
They originally came from Russia. They were they were Jewish and his his father was young at the time, and the family fled mixed area of Russia because the Jews were all being being rounded up even even there, and they ended up going to New York City and because of I guess there was a you kind of there were fifty family members. They were uh Coganovich, I believe, I can't pronounce what the last name was, and they changed it to Cogan, and it was it was George's
father who set out. They heard about Puerto Rico and so he went to Puerto Rico and they he found some farmland and they while while the family was still in New York and they were some went, some went
to Cuba, most went to New York. Before they went to Puerto Rico, they hooked up with a merchandiser and they started shipping goods to New York to Puerto Rico to a contact there, and it became it became Cogan New York, New York department stores, and they ended up with once they moved there, they ended up with the chain of nine. So the family became quite quite wealthy.
And then George, who went to boarding school part at the time in New York, as did his sister, and then he eventually moved to New York to go to college, and that's where he met That's where he met Barbara. And they weren't Barbara was, you know. She grew up in a in a nice area of New Jersey, but not nothing spectacular, you know. But he they married rather quickly. I don't think it was a mad passionate love affair. It seemed more convenient than anything else. But George was charming.
People liked him and all his cousins. They had a farm and every Sunday they'd gather the whole Kogan clan and it grew quite big, and everybody worked. Everybody worked in the department stores, and so George learned very young how to be a businessman. And then he ended up going buying real estate and having his own department store. And Barbara's father was a jeweler and she used to work at his store, and so they had that in common, and they opened up stores. They became more about business
really than their relationship. So likable guy, charming, but not a real looker. It was just an average guy, you know what I mean.
And what did Barbara physically look like?
Oh, Barbara was pretty when she was young. She actually won a singing contest and then I believe a beauty contest as well, and was supposed to get a scholarship. She sang and was supposed to get a record deal as well when she was like seventeen, but it fell through.
But she.
Liked the arts, and she actually was in a theater production off Broadway when she was in college, and it was a family friend who introduced them, and she met him backstage when George came backstage. And then she finished college and George dropped out, but he remained in New York, and as soon as she graduated, they eloped. They eloped to Pennsylvania, I believe it was, and then then right after that moved to New York and he opened up his own businesses, but he still had income. Everybody had
income from the stores. It basically the stories made everybody wealthy. Family, lots of cousins, and once I started writing, I blogged about the case a little bit, and a lot of the cousins came out of the woodwork. I got a lot in the history of the family.
It was great, right. So their marriage they elope, So that's maybe not the most promising start to a marriage. But what was their early marriage characterized by? What was it like? Was it tumultuous or was it what was it like? Now?
They were both busy in business, and she got a master's degree at some point, and they tried to have a baby almost immediately and couldn't they And they lived in a big high rise in San Juan, in the Condado area, which was a kind of a pricey area. And they lived in a high rise and their backyard was basically the beach and backyard. I mean they were, you know, in a penthouse suite. And they ended up they adopted their first son, and as soon as they
adopted him, she got pregnant. So their sons were ten months apart, Scott and William, and they were happy in those early years, but it seemed to be the focus. The focus for both of them became all about business. He bought a casino at some point, a hotel casino, a small one, and opened up the store for her, so she was running her own store, and then he was running the store. Just a lot of businesses, and then they once the boys went to college. Then they
decided to liquidate. They liquidated a lot of things bought. One of their boys was in New York going to school, so they bought an apartment there in Manhattan and decided to move there to be close to the boys and open up their own store. They opened up a store on Fifth Avenue and Gallery Antique, high end antiques, and hired a PR company, and that PR company assigned one of their employees to handle PR for them, and that was Mary Louise Hawkins. And George got involved with her pretty quickly.
Right, and she was young.
I think had twenty four at the time, and he was He was killed two years after they met. So as soon as Barbara found out about it, she notified Mary Louisa's boss and they fired her. And George, well, he started going he was going out of town a lot on buying trips to Europe and that sort of thing they would do, buying trips, and he started taking Mary Louise, and she never suspected, you know. In fact, she told Mary Louise at one point that George thought
she was pretty. She passed that on. That's how much she didn't see anything. And it turned to something more and as soon as Barbara found out, he moved. He moved out on to sixty ninth Street where Mary Louise was living on the upper east side of Manattan and he was murdered later, murdered in front of that apartment.
Well, take us to that actual crime.
She's a raw deal, you know, she felt, she felt scorned, as she should have, and it was kind of a raw deal. But she absolutely wouldn't settle on the divorce, and he won it. He wasn't. Nothing was liquid. Nothing was liquid, So that was money became the major major issue with them. It was a very nasty divorce, and neither one of them would ban.
What was the How much of an effect was the denial in court of the five thousand dollars per month alimony prior to that, Well.
She got it was huge because she was living off of credit cards and so was he. And then and then the they both started selling off property and they had an apartment still and businesses and they still had a store in one store left in New York, I'm sorry, in Puerto Rico. So they started selling off stuff and you know, large pieces and jewelry and that sort of thing.
She felt he was hiding jewelry. They both didn't trust each other, and they were selling stuff off and the court froze everything and it put him mine fixed to where Mary Louise was supporting him, and her father paid her mortgage and for the apartment, so she didn't have any rent or anything. But she was convinced that George was paying paying Mary Louise rent, and it just was nasty.
They didn't trust each other. She started to hire a PI you know, private eye, and then she hired an attorney to help her find an attorney in Puerto Rico to search for secret bank accounts she felt he had. He did it. He just you know, everything was liquid and he wasn't worth as much as everybody thought. They had a four point they had two life insurance policies that were four point three million dollars that they'd had
for years on George's life. I'm you know, I'm not convinced she was guilty, not one hundred percent convinced, but you know, that's another story. But it was very you know, an acrimonious I mean sour sour divorce.
Right right, And then then then this event, now go back to for our audience, what exactly happened that day and under what circumstances for George Coogan. He was at a market, he had some groceries. He was coming he was going to the apartment to see Mary Louise tell Us and.
Then he had an appointment with They had an appointment with Barbara that afternoon and he went. It was it was sprinkling. It was ten o'clock in the morning. The doorman, who was also from Puerto Rico, and he walked me through the whole crime scene. He went up half a block, you know the streets in on the upper east side or long blocks, but it was half a block up and over to mid block store. He had two bags
worth the groceries and had it home. And he was in a sweatsuit, you know, a top end bottom and right is he about twenty feet from the entrance and the canopy to the building. You know, it was a dormant building. He a gunman just came out of nowhere. And the guy had a hoodie on and a bright green cap and out of nowhere and with the snubnosed revolver hollow point fired three shots into his back and he just flew forward. Money flew everywhere, which I still
find that odd. But money flew everywhere because I don't know, I don't know that money comes out of your pocket, you know, when you're That's always seemed odd to me, and there's really no explanation for it. A couple of witnesses who there's only one who saw it from beginning to end, and she disappeared. She was a maid who was terrified and the person she worked for died, you know,
not long after, and she disappeared to Mexico. So other people there was one woman who saw it, but she ducked, you know, he looked at her, she ducked, and then so I don't know. I con I'm not real one hundred percent settled on that that money was. I mean, how does money, bills, bills fly, how do they fly out of your pocket? He was wearing sweats. I still am not his wallet wasn't found on the ground or anything.
But that's always been odd to me. So then everything became havoc and the dorman came out and ran out as soon as they saw him in you know, a mirror under the canopy, and the maid started pounding on the door of the of the building. Then the dorman ran out and talked to him and didn't at first realize he was flat face down because he was he was thrown forward by the impact. And then the gunman just literally literally vanished into street traffic on foot, never
to be seen again. No, no, the gunman was never caught. Yet they convicted her and then she the attorney she hired. They were convinced that he hired a gunman to kill George for the for the policy money. But the gunman they named somebody and I'm not going to say his name out loud, it's in the book, but he's in jail right now for something else, and we'll be out in a few years. But they never brought him in.
It's a weird case because they named him in court when the lawyer had the lawyer who hired a Puerto Rican attorney for her and there, you know, and they said that he got her to agree to hire a gunman to kill George.
You know.
Ironically, on the day that they were going to settle, he'd written it all out, you know, George Town, and they were going to settle that day. So it's so weird, out of the blue it happens. Yet there's no gunman, but two people are in prison for for conspiring to kill George. But you don't. You don't have the gunman. And I've always wondered why the DA didn't presume, And I think he didn't presume because he didn't have a case.
Well, of course they didn't have a case. They didn't have They have only a circumstantial here. But well we'll get into what I think really cooked their their goose, and that comes that stems from Martinez obviously. Yeah, let's go back a little bit.
Though.
Let's go back a little bit because George Cogan doesn't die immediately, so he ambulance rush him to the hospital and he.
Lives Lucky Land Casino, asking people what's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
Lucky?
In line at the deli, I guess.
Ah, in my dentist's office more than once. Actually do I have to say?
Yes?
You do? In the car before my kids PTA meeting? Really, yes, excuse me? What's the weirdest place you've gotten lucky?
I never win?
And tell well, there you have it. You could get lucky anywhere. Playing at lucky landslots dot com play for free right now are you feeling lucky. No, we're just necessary boy. Where we're gonna be my long eighteen plus terms, conditions of plus you want say details? Okay? Round two, Name something that's not boring. Laundry, a book club, computer solitaire. Huh ah, Sorry, we were looking for Chumbuck casino.
Chum.
That's right, Chumbuckcasino dot com as over one hundred casino style games joined today and play for free for your chance to redeem some serious prizes.
Chum, chumbucasino dot.
Com said, for seven hours, tell us what Obviously, he was going to his girlfriend, and he's living with his girlfriend. He's he's in a relationship with his girlfriend now, Mary Louise Hawkins. So she rushes to the hospital. Who doesn't rush to the hospital that people might think, well, Barbara.
Barbara and his wife. Well, the interesting thing is the dorman. Then George told him, well, the dorman, Moses Crespo, is the last person to have spoken to him before he went into unconsciousness. And like you say, he lived for seven hours, but he was you know, in several surgeries and in a comment at that point, he never woke up again. And and Moses ran to he said get Mary Louise for me. So he ran to the The apartment was on the first floor at the back, so
he ran to the door and Mary Louise. He didn't tell her what was wrong, just George wants to talk to you. And she came outside, saw his body, saw him lying there, did not go over to him. Mary Louise did not go over to him. She stood there screaming and she said his wife did it. It was his wife, and that became the focus, and that is the only direction the police went in. They didn't look for anything else. One of the sons said to police, and it came out in the newspapers immediately that I'm
not surprised. My dad had some bad business deals, so I'm not surprised he got killed. Then he recanted that a couple of years later, but that was the son's initial response. Apparently, George Cogan owed a lot of people a lot of money, and but that angle of it was never pursued. Just Barbara. So Barbara, Barbara was called
by her youngest son. The one lived in Puerto Rico, and he hit a p and then George's sister came with him and the other boy lived there and He kept calling his mother, expecting her to go to the hospital, and she did it, and police and the DIA's office said that she had a hairdresser come to her house. She was a friend who happened to be a hairdresser and combed down her hair in case she decided to go.
Barbara was used to a very very high lifestyle, so it wasn't unusual for her to have somebody come and comb out her hair, you know, for us, for me, that would be you know, that's not something I do in my life, and so it looks odd to some people, but you know, I didn't find it that odd. But Barbara didn't go. And you can say, well, she didn't go because she couldn't face everybody, you know, and that Barbara was notified that he had died at four pm
that afternoon and the family was still there. The sister she'd gotten there, the son had arrived, one of the other sons, and Mary Louise was at the hospital with her parents. They waited an hour longer and they didn't find out for an hour afterward. So when Barbara learned from the hospital, because she was the legal next of ken, she didn't call her son and notify him that he had died. So she had what they deemed odd behavior. People react in different ways, so who's to say what
looks guilty or what doesn't. But it didn't look good her behavior, and they used that as part of the circumstantial evidence.
What was the interview.
She was on medication, She was a little you know, she was bipolar. She was at that point, you know, she was in her forties and she was she was, you know, she was a little off at that point. I don't know that it points to you being guilty, you know what I mean?
What what does the what what do police do? And what what's their next step in terms of trying to solve this case? How do they proceed?
They had they had a well, they had a two two slugs that came out of his body. One of them, uh well all three, you know, one stayed in his in his body. One believe they found one spent that went through him at the scene. And that's it. That's all they found. And and they actually during the trial presented a snubnosed revolver because they knew that's what it was, and they presented it as evidence, and it wasn't. They never found the murder weapon. You know, they had two
different descriptions of the man the shooter. They it was odd and then Martinez, the attorney, they you know, he fled at some point. He went to Mexico and ended up in prison there for you know, he was kind of a slineball, you know, he's a sleazy, you know, kind of bottom barrel kind of guy, and he mostly evictions and that sort of thing. And then he got in trouble for some Czech scam and in Mexico and
ended up in the Mexican prison. So they didn't they indicted him in ninety I believe it was ninety six or ninety eight, and he didn't know it, Yeah, ninety six and he didn't know it, and and so it took a little bit to get him out. But Barbara didn't know what was going on either. But the deputy district Attorney Joel seidemanns in New York City, they're really entered stings. I mean, some of this stuff is just fascinating. Deputy district attorneys are on call, like the homicide cops are.
If there's a homicide, they actually send a deputy DA and Angel Seidemann was that guy. So that guy pursued the case for twenty years. So he was the deputy DA on the scene that day and he vowed to try and solve it. It is the last case before his retirement that he was bounded Ferman to solve it. And and that's what Martinez, Who's who? Martinez is an odd bird, odd odd bird and has written to everybody
and their brother. I mean, he just writes and writes and writes, and has had cartoons done and was not a sympathetic character in court. And his attorney did not present, he didn't present one witness on his behalf. And it was and the jury bought it. It was pretty. It was pretty interesting because I wasn't convinced, you know, so I'm probably jumping ahead a little bit, but her behavior that day is really what pushed him. They didn't have a they didn't have a lot anything else on her.
You know, it's pretty, it's pretty. It was a flimsy case, and it's amazing to me that it was prosecuted. Didn't you feel that when you read it? Did you get that sense?
I I just got the sense that that you had maybe some questions with it, and you were very close to the story and you you interviewed so many people. I knew that that you could tell that that this is exhaustive research here. So I sort of want to err on the side of somebody that's that that that's there, because it's just like being a juror. And I've seen cases in America. Just saw the Kaylee Anthony case or the Casey Anthony case. Oh yeah, who would have predicted
that outcome? You know? So sometimes jurors, like they said, they warned sometimes you know, you never know. So you never know when you see everything because juries see everything, and true crime writers, you know, in my case and in this case, with the access that you have, I think that you can make a at least have that as you're not sure, you're not saying for certain.
Yeah, Now I read the transcript and the interesting thing is Martinez he was offered a plea deal, and you know, and he's a stubborn, stubborn man and kind of believe he's the sort of man. He's in prison, he writes me all the time and just kind of one or in in the water, and he he has valid, valid points. You know, he's fired. I don't know how many attorneys and Appella attorneys. He actually has an appellate case because
there are a few mistakes done. But you know, his his credibility gets thrown out the windows as soon as he starts getting emotional and pointing fingers. But he was offered a plea deal. But his plea deal was they wanted him to give up Barbara, and when it dow it and he kept saying, you know, it wasn't true, and then they offered him nothing. He would have gotten twenty years, which is what he got, so they didn't
give him. It wasn't a good deal, and I don't know that he would have taken it, but it wasn't was not a good plea deal. And they wanted him to turn in Barbara because they had nothing on her. But Barbara was so scared and they finally by the time they indicted her, they stuck her in Rikers in isolation, So for two years she was in about two years she was in isolation, and they recorded her conversations, which they do. Everybody knows that, you know, when you're in jail,
they record everything. They didn't tell her what they had, but she apparently discussed the case with a friend. It never came out what was said, it was sealed. She ran Barbara ran out of money. Her attorney didn't want to go to trial because she couldn't pay him. And the trial was to start one day the next day, and she pleaded out at a secret hearing that no, no, none of the media was notified of. It wasn't posted
at the wasn't posted at the courthouse or anything. And she pleaded out to sixty six I think at the time sixty seven. She pleaded out in twenty ten because she said she didn't want her sons to have to go through the trial. You know, they're grown and married and kids and stuff, that she didn't want them to go through the trial. And it you know, I talked to Robin Sack says, you know who Robin is.
She's a former.
DA and yeah, she's great. She's she read a lot about it and got up to speed on it. And she said, nobody, nobody pleads out in the eleventh hour on a flimsy case like that, on strictly circumstantial she should have gone to trial. She was scared to death that they scared her. The only way they got her was to have it played out. I don't think she would have been convicted.
But you know, that's what I didn't That's when I didn't get just sorry, that's when I didn't get.
Through your booked over it.
It sounds like there was there was a couple of reasons why she may have done this because she really, it seemed almost even though this woman seemed very very hardened, that she really didn't want any more humiliation in court. And the one son was was prepared to go there and say some things, you know, he was very prepared.
To do that. Yeah, her sons were, Yeah, her sons were. Her sons were split. You know, Billy was William, the younger one sided with his mother and only you know, something like six months before his father died did they reconcile. And then he he wanted to help his mother in sad and so he started started mediating so to speak with his parents and got that interview lined up. You know, Barbara made a lot of phone calls that day as well to her parents, to Martinez too. Martinez was calling
her parents. There were a lot of phone calls out kind of looked weird. Most of them were like thirty second calls where you call and leave a message. So the fact she couldn't get them and just kept calling, you know, and I mean who you know? Who knows? I mean when somebody dies in her family, I think everybody makes a lot of phone calls. But she did it. She didn't look good and she was panicked out, totally
panicked out, and yeah, she didn't want the humiliation. So it's it's hard to say, I frankly, if she did it. If she did it and Martinez did it, I and there are lots of kind of weird witnesses who came forward and talked about his behavi of your after George died.
I think he wore her down and finally to the point where she just went, oh okay, and didn't think he would do it and go through with it if that happened, and I think that's the most probable thing, and then with flabbergasted when he actually went through it, because I think the fact that she had a meeting that afternoon the day he was killed, I think that says she didn't expect him to be killed that day.
She had a meeting all set up, and he was debbling with her, he was going to give her half, So I think that's that was a real point that sort of stuck in my cross, you know. And the maiden was the panic calling you know what I mean, and then calling him and calling him and going, oh my god, you know, what did you do? Sort of saying I don't know if that's that's the only thing I can figure. Otherwise Martinez did it on his own
and she didn't know about it. You know, there's not a whole lot of I mean, did you think there was a lot of evidence against him other than people say, oh, the guy, one guy got a plea deal, you know, the sleazy guy got a plea deal to know the time if he would rat on him and he Well, here's.
The thing I want to ask you, what was your opinion of the witness's credibility and the witnesses the content of the stories that they told when they testified, or will it the statements?
I think it was all I mean, I mean to read the transcript Haunt.
Well for our audience sake, what exactly did they say, because it seemed to hinge on the testimony of these these couple of friends that he apparently Martinez the lawyer apparently said to him the confession basically that he made to these people.
It wasn't. Then his wife who was to you know, she she was worried, is what. It took two interviews eleven hours long total, back to back to get her to come up. But yeah, he told me he was going to have him killed. It took eleven hours to get that out of her, and it was not recorded. And then he he had this guy who was a realtor and renting an office space and they went to a spaghetti house or whatever it was one night and and and Martinez was had been drinking and this guy
claimed that he was his name Peter. Uh. There were a lot of palls in the story. But what's his last name? Italian? And especially the sea. Sorry, I don't don't have it off the top of my head. And they had they had dinner together and it wasn't. He later claimed that he said, I'm going to tell you something that nobody I've never told anybody. And he was
in the DA's office in New Jersey. This guy was and Martinez called him, wanted to get together with him, and hughser he was in the DA's office and and he went he told him who it was, and they went, oh, wow, that's Manuel Martinez the DA and Manhattan's been trying to get him for years and something lit up with the so called witness and he agreed to be wired. And and so you read the transcript on the on the tape that was the supposed confession, right right. I don't
think they had it. I don't think they had it. He goes, and he goes, well, Manny, you know, I don't want to end up like Cocan, you know, I don't want to end up like that guy. And he goes, what and then Martinez goes, what are you talking about? And that he really Martinez appeared confused because he kept saying stuff like that, trying to get Manuel Martinez the attorney, you you know, give something incriminating and it really I thought was a real stretch. But boy, the jury bought it.
You know, here's all astonish and it was translated, and that to me was they That was what they hinged their entire case on, you know, which is kind of it was a guy who like happened to get a He didn't call him, he paged him. Happened Martinez. You know, then he finds pages him in the middle of his his agreement going on with the check sam check scam. They stole some government checks. This guy didn't was laundering them,
and he needed an out. And he soon found out how eager everybody was to get manual and he's like, wow, okay, let's go with that one. And he did. I don't believe his I don't believe the confession.
Well, what was the prosecution's theory in terms of of how Martinez, who was not much of a of a well it was not a criminal lawyer. He was a sort of an evictions kind of guy, you know, so he was not so how would how would somebody like Barbara who eventually hired the esteemed and very very very expensive Barry Levin, how would why was she be dealing with Martinez? And why was Martinez the guy that you would use as a goal between between a hit man? What was their theory there?
Actually did exactly Yeah, what she what? She was looking for someone who was Puerto rican who could go with her to Puerto Rico because he practiced law at one point, he got a law degree in Puerto Rico. He graduated from college there and then he went to New York.
Took him years, by the way in New York to pass the bar So she found him in the phone book and she went to his office which was in downtown Manhattan, and he had he owned a building and he rented space and there was sort of kind of low level people who rented space from him, and they all ganged up on him. At some point. Everybody kind of got something from it, you know, everybody was motivated
by something, and that was the connection. They were looking for someone who could have done it, and they hung their hat on Martinez. So because of the circumstances in both cases against Martinez, but he was such a terrible, you know, sort of figure with some sleazy behavior that you know, the jury bought it. It was amazing, and then they hinged. They still couldn't get Barbara. They kept trying to get him, you know, at the last minute to admit it, and he goes, I'm not going to
admit anything. I didn't do anything. But he was a little off his rocker and so he you know, he's just during the trial, he was firing letters and having weird behavior during the trial. He wasn't a sympathetic figure. I'm not convinced with.
Lucky land slots you can get lucky just about anywhere.
Nearly beloved. We are gathered here today. Has anyone seen the bride and groom?
Mury?
Sorry, we're here. We were getting lucky in the limo when we lost track of time. No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up quicker than a guess registered in lu case, I pronounce you Lucky pay.
For free at Lucky landslots dot com. Dagley bonuses are waiting. No purchase necessary boid. We're prohibited by lock eight team plus terms and conditions applaing. See website for details.
So really, I'm not I think that her behavior was weird. I think his behavior was weird. I'm not sure their killers. I'm not ninety nine percent sure. You know, it's not it's not that heavy that it didn't happen that way. But I do believe a scenario was painted and that's what they flew with and you know, and got her. And I don't think she would have been convicted if she'd gone to trial. She got twelve years and time service at.
Least twelve, at least twelve twelve to thirty six, right.
Yeah, but they said it'll be twelve. It was. Everybody has said it's going to be twelve, and that she'll be out when she's like seventy nine, you know, I think it is seventy seventy six something like that. But and she got for time served. Now actually she'll be out in ten because she got for time served, so to be seventy seventy seven. Now they're not going to give her anymore. I don't think she's you know, she's a good inmate, and that's what everybody said, that's all
it would be. But it's it's I mean, the case just I mean when when I read the transcripts and it was like, god, dang it, they don't have it. It's the only direction they went in in you know, march And is so sleazy that you know he's up to something. The guys and he made fun of George in his office and lots of people saw it, you know, making fun of him when he supposedly died. Oh God help me, I'm dying. Because he did say I'm dying.
And they connected the dots to the supposed shooter, and I'm telling you that was that link was very then. I've talked to his wife. The supposed shooter. They didn't bring him in for questioning. They went to jail at some point after he'd been arrested on some you know, robbery case that he'd never committed a violent crime, and they didn't they didn't have anything to take him in on, and he consented I didn't do it, so they didn't want to bring him. They could have brought him to
court and they didn't. He It was interesting the shooter wasn't a witness, you know, the supposed shooter wasn't brought in the court as a witness because he didn't do it, you know, I mean.
Well, they don't have it.
And if the two of them conspired, I don't believe it was the man they named Okay, it didn't have anybody, and they hung it on him, tried to make a connection to him. And the connection was you know, six degrees of you know, in the six degrees of separation or whatever it is. That's how that's how flimsy the connection was. I mean, you read that part right.
It was sure.
I mean, did you go through it. I mean it seemed to you as if, Wow, they got the guy, you know, they got it, and they nailed it. That's just what I see is that in case that two people are in prison.
The thing is that there's all kinds of things that are done beforehanded wardire's to sort of edit material as well. So I don't know, I mean, it's not that compelling. It's not that compelling a case of It's like you say, you're you're naming a shooter, but you don't have him. No grand jury's indicted him or anything. Nobody's actually mentioned shooter. Yeah, and and and and Martinez has not admitted that this is the guy. I've seen a lot of circumstantial it's vocal.
That it isn't. And yeah, it was a crimey case, but you know, he made Martinez made so many mistakes, so many I mean, he writes the judges all over the world, you know, and then he claims he wasn't you know, they didn't they didn't get him out in Mexico properly, and that that was an illegal extra extradition. And you know, he just goes after that, and then he fires an attorney who doesn't agree with him, but he can get an attorney. He's got a new appella attorney.
Now he still has an appellate case, which is interesting. I find, you know that he's not a sentence a character and you know, but I'm you know, I'm not. I'm not. It's an interesting story. I got two people in prison for a crime that who's the shooter?
You know, Well he doesn't have much people pull the trigger. No, but he doesn't have much of a compelling case. When Barbara agrees to a plea agreement and pleads guilty, you know, so.
They just they wore her out. They held that she was on medication. They isolated her for two years, and they she didn't know what they had on her. She didn't hear it, she didn't hear the conversations. I frankly don't think it was it was damning. I don't. Her attorney wanted out of the case because she was out of money, and she she didn't really know what was against her. And I think she was just tired and she was, you know, she was on a lot of medication.
The interesting thing is as soon as she pleaded it out and as soon as she was sent because there's two separate hearings, one for pleading and one for the sentence, and as soon as she was sentenced in court, the judge said, because at the plea agreement hearing, they say, keep her isolated, and wrikers continue giving her medication, you know, and then the second she pleaded out, it's like, nope, she's no longer an isolation. Let her get into the
general population, take her off of medication. I find that. I found that really interesting because it's, you know, I don't take medication myself, but I know people have. And I don't think you can go off that stuff suddenly for bipolar or whatever, psychotherapy drugs, whatever they are. I think you have to wean yourself off of them. And all of a sudden, she was high and dry. They got what they wanted, and boom, she was out of isolation. I found that really interesting.
Well, there's no mercy there, that's for sure.
No, but it's I mean, you kind of kind of it's a fascinating case because it, you know, blessed their hearts. They pulled it off the DA on a circumstantial case, you know.
And Barbara was not so sympathetic though, because even though she was, Barbara wasn't.
Well in some ways she was she was pitifully sympathetic. Barbara was, you know, And and I interviewed a friend of hers and who was just flabbergasted about it, and and yeah, she was money grubbing, and she you know, she filed for bankruptcy when she was hiding money, and the bankruptcy court wasn't. She lied to the bankruptcy court and they called her on it and the case was dismissed. And so she, you know, she didn't help herself at all. You know, she she screwed up. I mean, you have to.
I mean, if you're going to defend yourself, my gosh, you defending your life, you know.
And she sort of money.
From everything, yes, and yep, and she got it into payments a little bit apart, you know, by a year or so, I think. So she got you know, she got two million at one point and then two point eight or two point three at some point. Because the insurance this is interesting. The insurance company did their own separate investigation, and they hired a private eye to do it.
And this was a top notch private eye. They could find no fault that Barbara killed her, no proof that Barbara killed her husband, and so they gave her the money. They didn't want to give it to her. They could find that it was months and months that they embarked on this and he ended up testifying the the The private eye ended up testifying at bankruptcy court that no, we could find we could find no evidence that she
killed her husband. I that was compelling, you know, and that would have been admissible in court had she gone to trial, you know, to say what private investigator said, there wasn't any evidence that she had anything to do with her husband's death. I think she was a scaredy cat, and you know, I mean maybe she did.
I don't know, but I never saw I never saw that decision that. I never read that decision that way. Though. The way I saw it was that I was awfully surprised that an insurance company went to that extent to suspect her of death in this case, rather than just say, and I think that that is a testament. I thought reading that that was a testament to how unusual that is and how much compelling evidence in their mind there was to at least confide it. Because I didn't see this what they thought.
In They bought into the DA, They bought into the DA's story, they bought into that, and then when they went out there and embarked on their own, they're like, it's not there. We don't have it. Had she been thinking straight and had I don't know why her well, when you know, her attorneys didn't tell her. She went through attorneys like Socks, had like four or five of them, and when an attorney didn't agree with her, she fired them.
Well, she have very though. She had Bury eleven at some point.
Finally, but you know, he's older and he's tired. But she also had top attorneys when the case first got started, some of the top attorneys in Manhattan, and when they didn't agree with her or do something she wanted, she fired them. It's never good to do that. You want continuity. Had she had kept her wits about her and not been medicated and stuff and looked at it. I mean,
that was such a good thing. When the insurance company, it was so in her favor that a private eye found couldn't find any evidence that boy, the attorney should have run with that. Barry Elevin never and I talked to him a lot, and I talked to the deputy district attorney on the case. Barry Levin thought that it was such a flimsy case that there was no chance he was going to have her out. She wasn't gonna you know, she wasn't going to have to go to
jail pending the trials she did. He couldn't get her out on bail. Everything was stacked against him. He was surprised that it was such a junk case that he couldn't get anywhere with it. And I think that attitude, probably early on, probably didn't help her. He just went out, this is nothing, we're going to get her out. I talked to him before she was arrested, and I was going to interview her, and then she got indicted and arrested, and then she never came out again. She turned herself in.
She made arrangements to turn herself in two days later with Barry Levin. And it's just I think that she if she if she thought about it and had gone through all the evidence and they'd done everything, they had a lot of things in their favor, but they didn't handle it right, even the bankruptcy. And and you know, Manuel Martinez had a terrible attorney. You got that right from reading it.
Yeah, Yeah, it really damaged. It damages her completely too, that Martinez has a conviction, because then there's.
That of course cartwheels. Yeah. Yeah, But if I were had been Martinez's lawyer. I want to drag that well, they did. They brought that They brought that investigator. I see twenty thinks that they brought him into court. No, no, they didn't. I was surprised her attorney didn't bring that public or that private eye in who didn't field her as a case, because you know, there's a different burden of proof in private cases than there are in state cases. So they could go in a lot of directions the
private I could. And I mean if I were if I had been been Martinez's attorney, I would have dragged that guy in to testify. He didn't present, and his attorney said, this is this is BS. You're not going to lose. So he didn't present any witnesses, and so he just he thought, too, this is so flimsy, this is so ridiculous. There's no ways going to be convicted.
So it's all really really, it's a fascinating look at a case that was just one hundred percent circumstantial and not very good circumstantial evidence, and two people are in prison, you know, and then the shooter isn't. So I mean, if it weren't so sad, you know, because I do feel I do fill in a lot of ways, Barbara, I think it was way over her head. I think that at one point she wasn't as greedy as she was. I mean, her friend said she was a dear, dear friend.
She had daughter said that Barbara had a really good side to her. But boy, that didn't come out. You know, So a lot of ways I feel sorry for because she was so over her head and and I you know, I'm just not. I'm just not. She just got tired and pleaded out. I would as love to see her fight, wouldn't you have loved to see her fight?
Well? Sure, what was her behavior like at trial? What was her demeanor like? In her behavior?
Don't face she was doped up. They had her on drugs right, well, she was on before she went in, so they just continued it. She was she was, I mean sometimes her eyes were half open and she she it was. She didn't handle the death right. She didn't handle you know, she was all about the money. She appeared very greedy, and she was used to a certain lifestyle and she was just you know, it was all
about the younger woman. And she cried and cried. I mean, two years into it, she's still crying and instead of trying to get on with her life. And she hated George so much, and Mary Louise, and she took his clothes and threw him in front of the building, you know, jumped them in boxes in front of the building. And she just was a woman who just couldn't see out of her grief and losing her husband. And her behavior was a little erratic. But that doesn't mean she's a killer,
you know what I mean? Sure in that respect, I think it's a fascinating case because i'm you know, and then and then you know, my book got vetted and it was interesting, you know, one of the people who vetted it, they kind of wanted me to go stronger with some of the evidence. And I'm like, well, that's it does not there's not there's not anything more, you know, that's all they had.
There's reasonable doubt. There's reasonable doubt in your mind.
Yes, And Robin Sach was my god, I can you know she's at the end of the book because they quoted her. And and I also got a ballistics guy and had him look at, you know, kind of the whole scenario and bringing in a bringing in a gun when there wasn't a gun and having the jury pass it around and like the.
Murderjudicial hunt, that's very prejudicial, and it wouldn't and it really that that could be a source, that could be a bonus contention, that appeal, because that's not the weapon, like you say, and that's only can be prejudicial to the to the jury to imply again something they don't even have, you know, that's that's very odd.
So Martine was, he'd sit there sullen, and he'd be making faces and his head would be down and to be shoved, and he'd be glaring. He just glared at the assistant DA. You know, you never want to do that because you know, Assistant DA. I think I think anybody who prosecutes the case, they can't they can't like the person they're prosecuting. They can't bring themselves to do that, so they don't like them and the whole thing, and you have to just flow with it. I've sat through trials.
You probably have to. You can't. You can't respond to their behavior. It's how they get through it. And he just glared. Martinez glared at I mean, and he looked real onerous, you know, And I think that they the jury saw it him. You know, he was his own worst enemy. And like you said, that really did his conviction, really did Barbara Coganan. But they still didn't have her.
You know. It took them threatening to bring out, you know, the conversations that she supposedly had in jail, and we'll still never know what those convers stations.
Were, right, you know, yeah, I think I think I wouldn't even know what it was. Yeah, you know, I don't. I don't know with with with a guy like Levin, if she just didn't get a pretty good deal, because you're looking at twelve years is a pretty good deal if you are guilty or ten years. You know that's true.
She got a get She was out of money, Yeah, she was out of money. She was tired, out of money and tired and and you know, medicated, and in jail at Rikers, I mean, Rikers isn't a pretty place to be, no, and in isolation twenty three hours a day, and you know, you it, I mean I think it took its toll. She was a little off balanced emotionally before she went to jail, you know, so it it it's and she was out of money. She did it. It was really and then she was trying to win
win her one. I'm back, you know, and that was sad. You know. Scott stood up at the sentence scene and you know, looked at his mother and said, I love you, you know, I mean it makes me I get choked up. You know, you're my mom. I still love you, yeah, you know, and hopefully we can be a family again. And it was so sad. And I think it's sad. I think a lot of people lost a lot, and I think she lost a lot. I think the boys, you know, the grown Sons lost a lot, and George
Cogan lost his life. And Mary Louise who she's in the UK now, she didn't testify, but she they read her statement. She was an interesting character. She wasn't very sympathetic, you know, so you know, Barbara had her fired and you know she was vindictive. Barbara was and I don't think that worked in her favor, right, She just you know, she she's the kind She was the kind of woman. And you probably met people like this every you know, if you if you read the book or saw the
movie Ordinary People. Everything's nice and smooth. As long as there's nothing out of the ordinary. You throw a monkey wrench in it, and those people can't deal with it. That's who Barba Cogan was. She could handle life. Everything was good, she could run a business. But boy, you put a big monkey wrench in something out of the ordinary. Barbara, Barbara did not handle it well. And I think that, you know, she was her own worst enemy. And you know,
I'm not convinced that. I mean, I sure would like to see know who the shooter is, and I think that person should have been brought to justice. My question afterward to the assistant DA was, Okay, you're going after the shooter. Yeah, we don't need to.
Yeah, I don't see why you wouldn't do that too, to wrap up this entire case and make sure you have all the answers, I mean.
Have any evidence against him and bring him forward. It's dead nothing.
Yeah. The thing is, I think if they if they would have if they would have offered a lawyer, and whether you know Martinez a savvy lawyer or not, they would have offered this lawyer the usual kind of we will help you out if you give us, give us this person, and they couldn't even break this guy. It seems out of character because yeah, suddenly he's he's a real tough guy to not to crack. But he's just confessing to his friends what he did and how he did it. It's kind of.
Yeah, he wanted to break down to the attorney and save it for the DA and save himself. He wanted he wouldn't even have a talk with them. I mean, he basically sent the letters and told them to go f themselves. And he he wanted to even entertain it, you know.
He Yeah, that doesn't You're right, it was insulted by it.
He didn't handle it well either.
No, but he it does. It does. Your argument is some evidence for your argument is that he wouldn't give her up. He wouldn't. He wouldn't do it, right, I've just done a lot.
If he did do it, he he was so pompous that he wasn't going to give her up. But I don't think that's the case. I don't think there was anything there to give her up for. And so he absolutely They said that he paid first it was one hundred thousand, and then they said it was fifty thousand, and that he went and got money from her parents, who were her parents were just regular working people. They never could find the money and in the transcripts that
if he paid. She paid him fifty thousand dollars and then he paid a shooter. After that, there should have been a track record, and there wasn't. They couldn't find the money. She wrote him a couple of checks that added to five thousand dollars because he did he did CPA work, you know, for her parents, no notary public. He was a notary public and so he did some things like that, quite a bit of documents for her parents.
And then she wrote him a couple of checks at different times, and then when he went to next to Puerto Rico, she paid for everything, and so five thousand dollars that's all she ever gave him. So that wasn't a bone of contention with the the jury. You know, they threw out a sum of money of fifty thousand and then one hundred thousand. It's like make up your mind, but there was no They have no proof of that, but they said it like it was a fact, and
they bought It's incredible. That's a lot of money, even though mafia doesn't pay fifty thousand for a hit, you know.
What I mean, Well, just as a middleman, even you know, so obviously that she is going to do something. Was he doing? You know a lawyer is going to do something for free? Show me show me this lawyer.
Yeah, but no fifty yeah but fifty. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a pesky case. I mean, I tried to get to as much of it as I could, and I think I did and it just did it. It was I would thank you, It just was. You know, I'm looking through everything that I'm reading and I read the transcripts over and over and over and it just wasn't there. But hey, more power to the assistant. DA you got it. You got a conviction, two of them.
Well, you know, it's strange, though, what you have is the phenomena of every almost every state in the US, if not every state in the US now has a university law course that's pouring over cases, cold cases and not cold cases, but convictions, wrongful potential wrongful convictions. And so while you have you know, applauding the the district attorney for putting people away tough on crime, you also have this wrongful convictions.
Though it's uh, yeah, they want they want to get their man, no matter what they want to solve the case, and that's unfortunate. Yeah, yeah, and it just it was a fact. And then the fact that they hid the sentence scene, they hid that from reporters. Nobody knew about it, you know. And then I have a friend, a friend in New York who was picking up some documents. She's a crime writer, and she was picking up some documents for me and they didn't have the file. She was
copying the file for me and barbaras flown. They said, well, it's in the courtroom. She said, what's it doing in the courtroom? Were they're having a hearing today? And it wasn't publicized that. You know, there's a board where they show all the cases. Sure, and then the media can see it every day. It wasn't up. They didn't post it. So she ran to the courtroom and she was there for the sentencing, not the sentencing, but for the pleating out, which was you know, I had my eyes and ears there.
That was odd. And the media they wrote about it. They were really ticked off about it, the media that this big thing happened and you guys, you know, didn't tell us. It was odd. So she wanted to all Yeah, they didn't want it to fall through. They wanted everything to go smoothly to get their conviction, So it just kind of stinks, kind of stinks. Yeah, Well, the Investigation Discovery interview Joel Seideman, the assistant DA I was interviewed for it, and that's going to run in April.
Oh great, I'll be looking forward to.
So there's an Investigation Discovery show on the case that I think it's going to be. I think they're going to do a good job.
Sure or they do, you know. You know what's interesting too is that there is some hope for Barbara because of people like yourself. Sometimes it ignites this, you know, second look at this in retrospect, and so hopefully maybe you know your instincts are right on this, and maybe there's something will happen because of that, because I've seen cases where that kind of pressure, you know, a sixty
minutes article. And now, of course the Investigation Discovery is the lead in that, you know, twenty four to seven, these kinds of documentaries and programs. So you know, I wish your luck with that because if.
You really were kind of signed a signed an iron clad I don't think she can. I don't think there's any way out for her, it's pretty iron clad what she signed, and I don't know that she doesn't have a fire in her belly. It would have to be somebody else to go after it. And then you've got to get past Martinez and kind of his you know, sort of bottom feeder mentality and kind of you know, it's hard to get past.
That and her admission too, because that FLEA agreement isn't admission. So it's like a confession. And that's where prosecutors never, never want to back up from a confession because.
And I can tell you the news media in New York just bought it hook Line and Singer. They bought the whole the DA's premise, oh completely. But they never saw anything else. You know, nobody dug really deep. I was surprised, no one in New York. I mean I expected it to have a big piece in a magazine or something. Nobody did anything deep at the time or even after. The DA was feeding a couple of news reporters with things as the years went on, but nobody
ever dug deep. They just bought it. I found that really interesting, you know, so they they all believed it.
I think, go ahead, no, no, what what were.
You going to say?
Oh, no, I interrupted you, so I said to go ahead. No.
I just think that it's I would have liked to see somebody go after the case. Usually on a big case, you do and you see some really in depth reporting, and that was never done here. They just did their daily stories and nobody dug deep on it, and I found that really interesting.
Well, I think what they thought was that this seems very typical. You're getting a lot of these kinds of stories, widow of women killing husbands, arranging to kill husbands, a lot of stories, but this one. I think they just had enough salacious material here so that they said, oh, well, this is the kind of story. What they we'll run with. I see a media not wanting to change the sort of course of the story too much, especially.
And that's what everything read. Everything, everything single story read that way, and it's you know, it's just it's to me, it's a really sad case. All everybody lost, everybody lost their mess, and it's a sad case. And I think we still don't know, we still don't know the truth about George and the family. Of course, you know the Kogan family all the way around, they're one hundred percent convinced, and and and I just I'm just they're probably going
to be disappointed when they read it. But it's I'm sorry. I mean, I went into it thinking, Wow, this is absolutely guilty, and you get into everything and you go, what is going on? You know, this just doesn't it's not it's not ironclad by any means. It was kind of a bad, circumstantial case that they got convicted. But it's not anything that I think you'd hold a party over in the DA's office, you know what I mean.
Yeah, Yeah, it's.
Very not a real proud moment.
Well, you know, I think they're very I think really honestly, I think especially prosecution is convinced of something when they're doing it. I think there is obviously a lot of evidence of cases where people have done illegal things to frame people who they believe are scum anyway, But you know, but those cases are different. I think the prosecution really believes in what they're doing and that's why they make some you know, they stick to certain things. That's why
they would hammer. They would hammer a witness for two days so they get a confession. Like you say, it seems odd when you get eleven hour confession just to get or in an interview and you just get a
little bit of information. So you know, we all, you know, the people in the know here and a lot of the audience is very educated watching programs on false confessions and how convictions can get done with a you know, a rabid media and somebody an election year and a police force that's all pressured, and you know, things happen. Innocent people were keenly arrested and often convicted.
So yeah, they run to the goal post, they run to the wrong goalpost, you know, but I think, yeah, they're convinced, and they have to in order to prosecute a case, they have to believe in it. They have to believe they did it. Otherwise how could they possibly prosecute That's that's that goes back to Martinez didn't get that here. He was an attorney, but you know it wasn't a litigator, and and you know, he was going to family court and he's you know, evicting people from
apartments and he was it was over his head. And so he'd sit there and glare at the DA which was really in favor of the DA, and made himself look bad it's just like, roll with it, dude. You know, this is the way it works in court. Don't look like it affects you, you know. And I think some I think lots of clients, you know, lots of defendants
are coached and told that by their attorneys. Try, you know, try to sit there and don't don't buy into what they're doing, you know, because they kind of throw the kitchen sink at the wall and hope something sticks. Yeah, and that's precisely what was done here. A lot of times there's there's bogus evidence that's you know, stuff brought in to make it look like evidence when it's not. And I and I and I feel a lot of that happened here. You know. It's it's just there wasn't much.
But they you know, they they brought back you know, they brought back guilty, you know. And he was he was just some founded Martinez was you know, he kept saying I was writing a book about him, and and I was writing letters. No, I'm not writing a book about you, writing about the case. You happen to be in it, you know, you're you're a big piece of it.
This is not the Manny Martinez story. You know what I mean, Yeah, mailing my letters to the media and I'd say, you know, let me let me get this Claire, please do not do that. And know this, I'm giving both sides of the story. This is you know, I mean, he's not going to like it when he reads it because he thought it was going to be all pro him. And you know, he wasn't the most likable guy. Yeah, well I recorded everything that happened high.
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Well fright, yeah, yes, the way you see it. And yeah, and he wasn't likable. I mean you kind of got that right. He wasn't sympathetic at all.
No, he wasn't.
No, yeah, my character and so I had to straighten amount a couple of times.
One thing to remember though, when we talk about the prosecution, and I think this is what I think the big portion of the audience, uh, is that are people that are regular citizens are affected and shocked by crimes, but they're reading about it, and they're fascinated by the minds and of the killers and the trials and the mentality, yes, and motivation for everybody to do what they do in
this in these stories. But to be fair, prosecution really I think has to believe that these people are guilty and they may come with with it, buy yeah, they believe it. Where defense lawyer really has much more wide open sort of viewpoint in terms of, well, he may be guilty, he may be guilty, but but it doesn't but they can't prove he's guilty, so then he would be innocent in terms of the law. So they have they have a more we'll say liberal attitude of work,
where the prosecution doesn't have that ability. The prosecution don't say I think.
There is and I don't, you know, like I say, yeah, and I do. I mean, I like, you know, I mean, I you know, I've I've covered a lot of cases in their assistant DA's and DA's you know, the district attorneys I've actually liked. And I don't go into a trial thinking that they're they're convicting somebody wrongfully. But and you know, and so I do do respect them in the job they do. And I could be wrong, you know, but everything I just kind of called it as I
saw it. But I did give both sides to this story. You know, I don't paint him out to be an angel at all, Norah Barbara, you know, And I say, you know, it's just there are a lot of weird things that happened in this case. It was hard to sort out those players. You know, there are a lot of Italians, a lot of people from Puerto Rico, all across New York and it went from you know, spanning nineteen years. It was a tough case to report. It took me two years to write.
Yeah, no, it's it, you know, it was.
To boil it down, you know, and get to the crux event.
It's very much a true crime mystery. And why how that's different is that it's not like a fictional story in that at the end of this you're still not sure. And that's the thing that's that's what you imparted this is that it's not despite the trial, despite some of the evidence, some of the sense of this, some things just still remained to not make sense, and you've just
left with this sort of mystery. So I think you've you've captured that that it's a very not a clear cut case, despite what you might.
Think a lot. Yeah, that's a good way to put it. Yeah, it's not. And you don't typically find that in true crime stories. You do have a resolution and you you know, and it's it's a matter of reporting it. But this one was a really stumper and a fascinating It really was a fascinating, you know, case to the publisher at Saint Martin's Press, and they gave me a lot of documents to read and said, you know, do you think
you could fight into this one? I'm like, it was fascinating, and I loved reporting it, you know, I loved going to New York and talking to the dormant. And the dormant is absolutely convinced, you know, and he liked George. He called him is his pisano because they were from Puerto Rico, and and was was convinced because Barbara was kind of doing bad things, you know, during that divorce. She was just so greedy and just couldn't see the
force for the dreams. She couldn't get past herself and her own greed to just kind of grieve the marriage and try to get done and over with and move on. She was stuck, and it sort of it ate up at her and that really was to her detriment, and the way the whole case went, you know. And then and it really hinged on, you know, that first day at the at the scene right after he was shot, with Mary Louise going it was a wife, it was a wife, she did it. That's it. That's what they went with.
Yeah. Absolutely, Well it looks like it from a lot of you know, a lot of viewpoints. But the thing is, that's what happens. When you have a circumstantial case, you you have some doubt, but it does rely on what happens with those witnesses at court and if you have exerts expert testimony, lots of times it's who knows. And that's what's fascinating. That's why we the true crime reader, the true crime fan really loves reading these things over and over again as new stories come out, because you
really do get a sense of trials. You know, I've watched Law and Order for years. There's so many some of the most popular programs, the most popular series, and the most popular movies are about procedural you know, about how do trials work and how juries operate, and so it's really fascinating the people. And this book is a prime example of that kind of story. So I want to thank you very much to it's a great book. I want to tell people they've been listening to the
Millionaire's Wife. That's the new book by Kathy Scott, and we've been talking about that this evening. Millionaires The Millionaire's Wife by Kathy Scott. Thank you very much Kathy for coming on the program. I hope I wish you the best of luck with this, but I'm sure this is going to be another big best seller for you, So.
Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Released on March twenty seventh, but people can pre order on Amazon. It's doing very well in pre sales. Actually, it does really like a mystery, so thank you so much, Dan, I really appreciate it.
Well, thank you very much, Kathy, and get a hold of me as soon as you've got something else cooking. I know you work like you're busy as a beaver here writing new tales of mystery and true crime madness.
So get a hold of coming out so I'll let you know when it's nailed.
Okay, great, we'll be looking forward to that. Well, thank you very much, Kathy. Have a great night.
Good night, my pleasure, goodnight, good night.