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You are now listening to true Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Geese Bundy, Dahmer, The night Stalker VTK every week another fascinating author talking about the most shockolant and infamous killers in true crime history, True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good Evening. This is your host Dan Supanski for the program True Murderer, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. With them the last six minutes is the true account of the random and violent murder of sixteen year old Matthew Martin Martin and his family's journey through the Canadian criminal justice system. On July second, two thousand and five, Matthew Martin's, while waiting near a skytrain station for a friend, was
approached by a woman named Katherine Quinn. Quinn wanted Matthew's crucifix and jumped in trying to get it from him. In the scuffle, she was scratched by something and began screaming to her friends and her boyfriend Robert Fororeslen that she had been stabbed by Matthew. Matthew rand but was chased in a corner at the bottom of the escalators, robbing and then beating and stomping him to death. Forcelaind had even slit Matthew's throat. Quinn and Portland were arrested,
charged her, and sentenced for secondary murder. Now the family faced the killer's appeals and the threat of another trial. As a result of family's ordeal, Matthew's mother, Sandra founded FACT Families Against Crime and Trauma, working to help others who have lost a loved one to a violent crime. She has witness first hand the imbalance in the Canadian justice system and believe it's time the season the rights of victims supersede those of the offenders. The last six minutes,
Sandra Martin's Toner my special guest. Thank you very much, sand Martinstner for agreeing to this interview, and welcome to the program.
Thank you for having me, Dan, thank you.
Very much for coming on in the program discussing on this very incredible book.
Thank you.
I want to start right at the very beginning, I think to be fair and talk about Matthew and his life. Go right back to the beginning, and I guess we'll just talk about right up to the faithful day itself. But let's start at the beginning and talk about Matthew in his life.
Sure, sure, Matthew, of course was an amazing child. I was truly, truly blessed for my first child. I was a teen mom. I was seventeen years old when I gave birth to Matthew, and I knew then the day that he was born and placed in my arms, that there was nothing I'd rather be doing than trying to secure a wonderful, happy life for myself and my child, and I did so. Matthew and I because of my age, we became best friends. Not only mother and son, but
we were great friends. We loved to be around each other. He was kind hearted, just a well rounded young man who loved to help others in the community. He was well known by the younger children. As he was thirteen and fourteen, he'd go to the Boys and Girls club in our community and teach the kids how to break dance or.
He loved to sing.
So he was just an amazing and amazing child, and he just had he aspired for so much in life. And I think that's what is incredibly tragic with with what you know happened to him, is that he could he would have been a very contributing member of society.
So basically, you know what happened was it was the Canada Day Long weekend here in Vancouver, BC, and Matthew and his friends had decided to go and watch the fireworks that evening, and you know, his father and I really didn't think anything of it, being that you know, Matthew was very responsible.
He had a cell.
Phone, he'd never given his data, and I any reason whatsoever to you know, have an issue with this. So off he went with his friends that evening to watch the fireworks, and it had been discussed prior that he would actually spend the night at his friend's house in Surrey, BC. We live in Vancouver, so we had no problem with that. We knew the Wheatons quite well for a few years and they had moved from Vancouver to Surrey, and you know,
we were okay with that. So after the fireworks, I guess the boys made their way back to David's house, to the Wheaton's house, and they were playing some video games, and Matthew got a phone call from a friend from Vancouver saying that she was lost trying to find them.
I guess she was going to come hang out and play games with the boys, And so Matthew went walking to go and meet up with this young lady, and on his way there, he happened to pass in front of Catherine Quinn and Robert Forsland's home, and there was a statement you made as Matthew was sort of approaching them from Catherine Quinn to her own girlfriend. She said, wow,
check that kid's fat chain out. And really, what she considered or thought was a fat chain was nothing more than a very simple simple gold chain and crucifix that was given to Matthew by my sister and her husband
for his sixteenth birthday. And as he walked past her, she decided to jump him, and she jumped on Matthew's back and a scuffle ensued, and like you had mentioned earlier, they fell from the sidewalk onto the road, and we assumed that Catherine Quinn landed on perhaps a stone or a branch or something that caused a very superficial excoriation of the skin, just a tiny little scratch, but she started to and Matthew took off running at this point, and she started yelling to her friends and to her
boyfriend that Matthew had stabbed her. So Katherine Quinn, in two of her girlfriends, jumped into her girlfriend's car, and Robert Foysland and his male friend that was there that evening took off on foot after Matthew. The girls followed Matthew in the car and chased him, and I guess they finally, you know, they Maddie was running through apartments, through fields, through houses, but they just they just kept pursuing him, and finally, the only thing I can think of.
Of course, this is just my own personal opinion, being that I don't know, you know, what happened, but I'm thinking that Matthew probably thought if he could get to that skytrain, he might have been able to jump on and get out of there, or there was maybe some security there, because there were some you know sometimes especially in holidays, transit place that would attend the skytrain stations, and you know, I think that's perhaps what crossed Matthew's mind,
and that's why he ran in that direction. So they pursued him and did find him and cornered him at the bottom of the escalators, and and everything that they did to Matthew was caught on these skytrained surveillance cameras. And this is exactly this is why I've named the book the Last six Minutes, because in those six minutes they took my child's life that in the time it could take you or I to walk into a Starbucks and purchase a cup of coffee and drink it. They
took a child's life. I've never watched the video, although it was played hundreds of times during the trial, but I looked away. There was no sound. I have been told by people who did watch it that it has traumatized them for life. It is It is the most brutal assault on a child. And the difference in size is what really really hits you. Fordland was about six, I guess six one sixty two. Matthew was five five
maybe one hundred and twenty five pounds four. Land's a very big, stocky man, and he they basically picked him up and threw him headfirst into plexiglass windows. They stomped on his head, they kicked him, They broke beer bottles on him. They then used a beer bottle and slit Matthew's throat and he would bleed out on that platform, and I would get a call from his friend because
David would you know. Of course, notice that Matthew never came back and started walking in that direction and heard sirens and saw police car lights, and when he arrived at the scene, he noted that the clothes on the ground that the paramedics had cut off of Matthew were his friends, and he ran up to the police officer and said, you know, this is my friend's clothing. So of course they took him into custody as well for questioning,
and it sort of unraveled from there. I would receive that call from David at three o'clock in the morning letting me know. I mean, of course he didn't know what had happened. All he told me over the phone was that Matthew had been assaulted. That he overheard the police officers saying that Matthew had been taken to Royal Colombian Hospital, and that's when the nightmare began for my family. We lost Matthew.
He was.
Brain dead even by the time we had reached the hospital, and the doctors basically told us that there was no way he could survive the trauma from the blunt force to his head and brain. He had suffered terribly and that we had to make a decision to turn the machine off and allow the child to rest in peace. And that was the scariest day of my life. Dan, I will never forget it. It was an awful moment.
Now let's go back just a little bit. The thing is, is this shocking on surprise, this devastating any news. Yes, didn't happen all at once. You know, I don't know what the intention was the hospital staff, but heading to the hospital, you had no idea the extend of his injury.
No no idea whatsoever. I had.
Like I said, I got to call at about three a m. And I rushed, of course, to you know, I'm yelling on the phone to his poor friend David, who's in the back of a police car calling me from his cell phone, and I ran to the you know, the kitchen to grab the Yellow Pages so I could look up the phone number for the hospital and would
you know, finally reach someone in the emergency area. And they basically told me that, you know, I started to describe my son and felt that he was a young man that had just been brought in on an assault. And the woman that the nurse basically said to me, I think that it's a match, but we do need for you to come down here, uh and just take your time. And all I can say, Dan, it was the longest car ride of my life. You know, we
didn't drive crazy. We you know, we tried to, but that entire car ride, you are inside your head like you can't. I don't even know how to describe those moments. They are so surreal because you don't know what to expect. You know. Here I was thinking I would go to the hospital and he's getting some stitches, and you know, we would cry and and but he would still come home bumped and bruised, and his little brothers and him would be, you know, back to the same old, you know,
family stuff. But unfortunately I would be coming home that morning telling his two little brothers that he had died due to the brutality of the beating.
Right, And what I was really struck by was that you were pregnant at that time, and so they felt everyone felt that maybe would be best if your husband, who's not Matthew's biological father but still his stepfather of course, and your husband to go in and identify Matthew yes, for the police. And then it was the reaction that you had when you saw him. You knew something was a myths up to that point. I don't think in the book you conveyed that you didn't actually know the
extent you were hoping for the best. But when you saw him, tell us a little bit of just about that, because I think it's sure.
Like you mentioned, my husband and I had just recently found out that I was pregnant with our fourth child. In fact, we had just probably three weeks earlier, told our children, our boys, Matthew and his two younger brothers, Mitchell and Brayden, that I was pregnant. And Matthew was ecstatic, especially at the thought of having a baby sister, because he already had two baby brothers. And he would tease me all the time saying, you know, mom, you're just
going to have another boy. And I you know, I remember saying to him, no, Maddie, we should pick a girl's name. Let's pick a girl's name and and you will will it to happen. And it was it was just really really funny how he had jumped on the computer and picked out an incredible name. Her name is Chaiya and uh it just basically it's a Hindi name and in the everyday language it just means shadow. And he just thought and he said, well, how appropriate is that She's going to be like our you know, our
little shadow. Oh yeah, So you know, like you said, I was, I was pregnant. And when the doctor, when the nurses said, you know, they needed someone to come in and identify Matthew, he was still on the operating table, to make sure that it was our son. My husband said to the nurse and the police officers that, you know, my wife is pregnant. Maybe it's not a good idea for her to do this. You know, We've got to
be really careful. And they agreed, and so off David went, with the nurse on one side of him and a police officer on the other. And I, honestly, I can't tell you, Dan how long it was. It could have been two minutes, it could have been half an hour. But what I do remember is that when they brought David back into that little side room, they had kept us in, the nurse and the police officer on either side of him, holding him up. And I've never seen
that look on my husband's face. And I knew the moment I looked up into his eyes that something was not I knew, of course, that it was Matthew, but I also knew that whatever he saw was so traumatic and horrific that he would never I would never it would go to his grave with him. He would never tell me what he saw that night.
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You know, it's just it's awful, and you know, basically he you know, the one thing he did say was that, you know, he had to be very careful. He said, I wouldn't have recognized him by first glance. And this is a child he has raised since Matthew was seven years old. I spent a lot of time with together.
And he also said what confirmed it for him was that Matthew was wearing He remembered Matthew wearing the same camouflage boxer shorts earlier in that day and he had seen Matthew wearing them earlier that day, So that is truly what confirmed and Matthew's hands.
Right, because you had you described it as the sheets and towels cover Matthew's body covenation.
Yes, yes, yeah, they by the time they brought me in and they had brought Matthew into, I see you, they I never got to see Maddie's face because of the damage that they had done during the beating. They had to keep Matthew's face covered with towels, so all that was poking through was just the tip of his chin, Like I couldn't even see his bottom lip because of the damage, and and the bleeding was just so so profuse.
The nurses would have to usher us out every ten fifteen minutes to be able to change the towels that were covering his face and head so that we wouldn't have to sit there with him bleeding through these towels. And that's how much damage they did to my beautiful child's face and head.
It's incredible. Now, part of your Christian faith you wanted him or your religious face part of me, I'm not sure if you're Christian, but you wanted him baptized, and according to your faith, you contacted a father Michael, correct and it was important too that you talked to he asked how he asked something about being sure if Matthew wanted to be baptized, and you talked about the crucifix. Tell us a little bit about that.
Well, it's funny. I was born and raised a Catholic from a Portuguese family, and when I had Matthew, I thought it would be best that I allow my children to choose their own faith. I didn't because the way it worked for us is as children were baptized even before we can walk or talk, so really you have
no choice. And I always felt that maybe it'd be a good idea to allow your child to pick their own faith, and so I had always left it that But from a very very young age, Matthew was always drawn to the whole concept of Catholicism, and and like my own and you believed in going to church and loved you know, all of that stuff. And so it seemed to given that Matthew was going to, at some point in his life adopt the Catholic faith.
And so.
I think he was probably thirteen or fourteen when he asked for his first crucifix, and I felt comfortable enough to allow him to wear a piece of jewelry that he was mature enough to take care of that, and so we bought him one. And I think it was just before his sixteenth birthday, a year before the actual robbery of and beating death. He had actually been robbed
in our own community of that crucifix. And it wasn't until his sixteenth birthday that my sister and brother in law decided to purchase for his sixteenth birthday a new chaining crucifix, and this would be the chain and crucifix that he would end up losing his life over. So it's it's just it's so very sad, I you know, I wish, yeah, yeah, very It really shook the foundations of my faith and my beliefs because I just thought, what God would allow this to happen? But what I
didn't realize. I mean, I thought, you know, I fought over this for for probably two or three years. I felt as though, you know, this was some cruel, sick joke on God's part, you know, you take my beautiful child and I'm pregnant, you know, and the guilt I suffered with terrible guilt over being pregnant and you know, bearing a child and bringing a child into the world.
It was just this unbelievable feeling of just confusion. So yeah, it's it's been an incredible, incredible journey, that is for sure.
Now your first encounter, and I guess this would would shape a lot of things and a lot of your feelings later on. But a woman from Victim Services contacted you and gave you some booklets saying they would help you in the process of grieving. How did you react to that first encounter with someone from the government, from the victim services.
Right, I have to be honest with you, my first encounter with someone from Victim Services was not a very good one. In fact, it happened as we were I
had we had just left Matthew's body. He had we had turned the machine off, Maddie had taken his final breath, we had spent some time with him before we left, and basically my husband was carrying me out of that ICU unit towards the elevator, and all I remember is this woman sitting off to the side, to my left side, on these lounge couches there in the waiting room, and just as we were going to get into the elevator, she just sort of appeared in front of my face
with a handful of pamphlets and she looked at me and she said, here, you know, missus Toner, these pamphlets are for you, and and they will, you know, tell you how you're supposed to grieve, and and they will, you know, show you what's gonna happen and what's gonna
what you have to do next. And I just remember trying to process that, and I remember thinking to myself at that very moment, like, what you mean there's there's instructions on how to grieve, on how to go through this, and I just, you know, I just thought, this is wrong. This is absolutely wrong to be doing this and handing these to me, because and and over the years, I've learned this, there is no there are no instructions, there are no rights and wrongs of grieving, and there's no
time limit on how it all works for everybody. It's different. So that was my first encounter, and it was not a good one. Dan.
Right now, you've talked about the days that immediately followed Matthew's death, the guilt, the raving at God to say how could you do this? And it really shook your faith? But how was the story handled by media and why did you decide to speak to media about the murder?
Right?
Well, I think initially the reason why I did go to the media was that the homicide investigators had come over to our home and they were asking if they asked us if we would go, if we would speak to the media and do a press conference, asking to see if any witnesses could come forward, because they felt that there were more people at that skytrain station that were there that night that we're probably too afraid to come forward, had seen something but didn't want to get involved.
So that was initially that's what it was for, was just to plead with anybody to please please come forward and help us, you know, find other witnesses so that we could convict the two that were already being held you know, in remand right. So that was my first thing. Then it was sort of I think it was more my husband and I sat down and we just thought,
this is wrong. If this has happened to our family, how many other families could this potentially happen to and and nobody would know if you didn't come out and speak about it, and how what can we do as parents is Maddie's you know, mother and father to try and reach out to others to say this is wrong. You know this, This is happening in our community, This is happening in our backyards, and we need to do something.
This is unacceptable year. Our children should be able to go and enjoy the Canada day long weekend, fireworks and whatever, and walk in our communities and be safe. We shouldn't have to be worried that our children are going to be you know, caught in the crossfire of of you know gang you know gang shootings, nor should we be worried that someone's going to rob them and kill them
for a chaining crucifix. It just it's wrong. And so David and I made a very very conscious decision that we were going to continue to keep our son's story, even though it was already you know, high profile in the community, that we were going to do whatever we could to make some changes, whether it be to the skytrain stations, better lighting, more security. I still believe that had there been a static guard there that night, perhaps my son might still be alive today. Had someone done something.
Had there been some sort of security in place for Matthew, he could still potentially have been here.
Now you talk about that Matthew's motive for running back to the skytraining for those people that don't know what the skytraining. If this is a above ground high speed train subway, yes, the description. Okay, Now, he ran to this thinking and I would have thought the same way, to run somewhere public in case these people would be not so savage as to assault them in front of witnesses.
Yes.
And you talked about the the plea from police for witnesses to come forward. Tell us what police had immediately after this, other than you said the videotape, the surveillance tape. But tell us about the police and the eventual witnesses that came forward.
All right, we were very very lucky because the police that did attend were quick to pull that video surveillance tape because we didn't know this then but we do know now, or you know, shortly thereafter that. Had the police officers not pulled that video tape, it would have been looped over within I think twenty four hours, and we could have lost all of the you know, the video surveillance that was captured of the beating, which would have been horrific because we may never have found our
son's killers had we not had that. The other great thing was there were some people at that skytrain station. Some of them fled and we've ever been able to find even after you know, the trial, but some of them did do the right thing. There were two young girls I guess they would have been sixteen and seventeen at the time, who were also who had also been out enjoying the Canada Day Long weekend, and these two girls were the only two girls to try to intervene.
It's just incredible. One young girl actually physically tried to stop Fororzland, but he was just far too strong and big, and he was so intimidating he was. He even took the girls' photo identification and told them that if they spoke to anyone, he would come and he would kill them, so,
you know, definitely instilled a lot of fear there. There was also another gentleman there who was probably at the time in his of late twenties early thirties, and the only reason he would be the last person to even speak to Matthew before paramedics got there. In Foresland and Quinn had already taken off. He would he walked over to Matthew's body and checked for a pulse, and he says he does remember that Matthew had a very faint, faint pulse at that time, and he said to Matthew,
just just hang in there. He didn't know his name, he said, just hang in there. And he heard the sirens coming. Someone had obviously called nine one one, but he took off when he heard the sirens because it turned out he had some warrants for his arrest and
so he was afraid of being arrested. But what he did do was he walked all the way from the Surrey skytrain station to Surrey Memorial Hospital, thinking that Matthew would have been taken there, but unfortunately, because of the head trauma, the emergency response team decided to take Matthew to Royal Columbian Hospital because they specialize in brain and
head trauma. But he did walk all the way from the skytrain station to a Surrey Memorial Hospital, which probably took him between thirty five forty minutes on foot to walk there, and when he got there, he noticed there were a ton of police cars in the parking lot and police everywhere, and he couldn't figure out what this was all about. But as he started to walk towards the emergency doors, he looked in the back of the
police car who and it was Robert Forsland. He had actually and he walked right up to one of the police officers and said, that's the guy that I just watched beating a young boy at the Surrey the Surrey Central skytrain station. And that's how the police were able to put two and two together. Otherwise we would have just ended up, you know, on this manhunt trying to find these people off of you know, you know, pictures off of a video surveillance camera, which in fact weren't
very good. So had it not been for this man going to the hospital in iding Robert Foresland and Catherine quinn they probably would have gotten away with murder.
Now, Catherine quinn is and Robert fores Lynn go up for bail, and what happens in those appeals for bail, right.
Right, They, like I said, they were both taken into custody the night that this all happened, and it wasn't until like probably like a year, just like almost to the date of the first memorial for Matthew's passing, and we get a call from our Crown prosecutor to tell us that Catherine Quinn is appealing, is applying for bail. And I thought, well, why would she spend out an entire year in prison and.
Apply for bail now, because most of the times they do it right away.
And so what happened was I maybe she just had this moment of hey, you know, I need to get out of here, because she is a mother of three. She wanted to be with her children and her family. She wasn't having a great time in prison, and so here we were, and I honestly, Dan, I can't like you're hearing this judge you know, basically say you know, I am really you know, I don't think it's a good idea to to you know, release you into the community.
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Reason to keep you in prison, and we release you on five thousand dollars bail. And it was at that moment that I honestly, I honestly said to myself, this is not right. Something is very very wrong with our justice system. And it was a huge It was that carpet was just pulled out from underneath me, and I honestly felt as though my child was not worth five thousand dollars if this is what they were releasing her on. And it was at that moment I realized I would
never stop fighting for my son. I was going to do something.
So you had no other You had no idea why they would have let her out on bail after that year and you were in the dark about this. You also called your victim services person again right after this. What did you ask her for at that time and what was her response?
Well, I was really afraid because when she was released, I found out that she was being released into the custody of her parents, and her parents reside here in Vancouver, where we do, and of course they released the address during the bail hearing, and we found out that it was ten blocks from our home, and that really really scared me, especially since I was pregnant and this woman was obviously psychopathic, and because of my two younger children, So of course I feared for our safety. And my
husband traveled a lot with work. So I had called the victim service his office to see if there was some sort of you know, panic or alarm or a security system that they, you know, would fund and place in our home to keep us safe should anything happen, being that we lived so close, and she basically she said that she would look into it, that she would give me a callback, and I should she should have
an answer, you know, within twenty four hours. I received a call the very next day and she basically told me that I didn't qualify that we wouldn't qualify for a se charity system in our home.
Why was that?
It never gave us any reason, absolutely no reason. It was just they didn't feel that that, you know, Catherine Quinn was was was that much of a threat that they should have to fund a security system for our family? So yeah, there was, you know, and I think back now, had it been now, I would have you know, obviously you know, torn a strip. But I was so raw at that point, I just I couldn't leave what I was hearing and I just left it at that. And that's why today I don't take no for an answer.
I will continue to fight and appeal. And you know, but back then I didn't know any better. I just thought what they say goes and that's that.
Now you say that. But shortly after this, and at least tell us when this happened, was your first rally and basically the formulation of your group, and you were talking about Strichster bail laws. You went to the new Westminster Courthouse and obviously you needed some support from the media. Tell us about the whole experience, and then response from people that may have seen the television report on your rally.
Sure the day that she was released on bail. Like I said, I realized, oh my goodness, you know, we have got to let people know that she's being released into our community. But the other thing we need to do is we need to start, you know, making some noise, like do you do Canadian citizens realize that there are killers being released amongst us while whilst awaiting their trials, you know, living in our communities, And who's to say that they won't reoffend while they're out, you know, on bail.
So what I did was, of course, you know, over that year, I had made quite a few friends in the media, had kept in close contact with them because they wanted to be you know, you know, up to date on what was happening with the trial and what was going on with Quinn and Foresland. So I called them all up and you know, told them about the bail hearing and how you know, disillusioned we were with the criminal justice system, and that I wanted to do
something and would they help me? And all I asked was that they, you know, let people know that we were going to hold a rally at the new Westminster Courthouse and we were going to be protesting Quinn's release. On five thousand dollars bail and you know the treatment of victims. And I had reached out in that newscast to other families that had lost children to violent crimes and asked that we stand together, that we you know, stand united and you know, be a voice for our children.
And so, you know, we showed up to the courthouse that day and David and I were just overwhelmed by how many people came. People had made placards carrying them, carrying signs. It was just an unbelievable feeling. And it would be at that rally that I would meet three or four other families whose children had been murdered and they were still waiting for justice, and they had felt so alone and isolated in their you know, quest for justice.
As well as I met this this amazing woman, Nina Rivet, whose sister, Irene Thorpe, had been run down by street racers and I think two thousand and she had lost her sister and she had just been an incredible fighter
on her sister's behalf. And so it was just incredible that I had the opportunity to meet me in a Rivet and I invited her over for coffee a few days later and told her that I had been thinking about, you know, founding this organization and would she be so kind as to you know, stand alongside me and be the president of Fact.
And that was that.
It was basically, you know, my sisters, my in laws, Anina Rivet, a few other family members who had lost their children, sitting at my dining room table, and we you know, basically said this is what we want to do. We want to be able to be a voice for our children. We want to be able to you know, get families the resources that they need in a timely manner.
I honestly, family should not have to worry about how they're going to pay their mortgage, or their bills, or their rent, or how they're going to have to pay for their child's funeral, all of those things when you can barely function, you know, days after the loss of a child. It's incredible all of the things that were left to deal with with with no help, with no help, no help from the government. I mean, you know, they cap out at five thousand dollars. You know, it's just
it's really really sad. It's really really sad.
Explain the would you talked about the five thousand, and what that five thousand is. You mentioned it your funeral costs thirty thousand dollars, right, and wasn't that elaborate? And the government cap started at five thousand, and they gave you four thousand towards a funeral, So you're already twenty five thousand dollars in the whole. And then you talked about the trauma that the family, yourself injured, and then you go to the government for some kind of financial aid.
Tell us more about that, but also put it in the context of you also investigated what, weirdly enough, for some people, the perpetrator's family is entitled to some therapy and counseling and absolutely financially. So first tell us what they are entitled to, and then compare that to what you found out yourself and other families like yourself are entitled to.
Yeah. Through research, since all this happened, I have found out that not only are the offenders entitled to many many things once incarcerated, I mean they've got medical and dental and basically you know, they can go to university or college or get their high school diplomas. Everything. See, there's there's a plethora of resources always in place, whether
it be uh, you know, spiritual, aboriginal, spiritual stuff. There's so much in place for offenders, but when it comes to the victims or the families or those you know, surviving victims of homicide, they're just honestly, I'll and I've said this, I felt as though I had to beg for every little thing. The only thing I did get some help in, which was an absolute pittance, was four
thousand dollars for towards Matthew's funeral. And like you said, Matthew's funeral, you know, no frills, Like honestly was like close to thirty thousand dollars. And you know, you know, we just didn't have thirty thousand dollars sitting in our savings account. I mean, you know, we were a family living from I had just finished university and had started working,
so you know, basically paycheck to paycheck. So yeah, it's it was just incredible the amount of money that and debt that we had to go into in order to be able to bury our child in a very simple, simple fashion. And it's just unfair. It's very unfair. I honestly think that that bill should be on the government the entire bill, regardless of how a family chooses to whether they bury a child or create a child. We
need to see changes. We need to see changes in where our government caps out, you know, like right now they cap out I think at five thousand dollars towards a funeral. But what they need to look at is the cost of a funeral today. When that piece of legislation or that act was put in place, we weren't living. You know, it didn't cost you know, five thousand dollars for a coffin and I'm talking a simple, simple coffin.
For your child.
So those are things that I am constantly on top of. I am constantly arguing with the government agencies and the Crime Victim's Assistance Program because we need to really see, you know, amendments and changes made to these pieces of legislation.
Right now. There was part of the story that we haven't spoken about too, is the demeanor of Catherine Quinn after this crime. And you talked about you would requested with victims Services that you have some kind of panic button because yes, of her action, but you didn't go into what some of the things that she had done by posting certain taunts and sense statements online. Tell us a little bit about that, just to add insult to injury for yourself.
Sure. Sure. From the moment she was released on bail, Catherine Quinn took to the Internet instantly. And because our bail stipulations are so antiquated, it does not include the
use of internet in those bail stipulations. So because the stipulations are so vague and so old, yes, she's not allowed to make phone calls, she's not allowed to have any direct or indirect to contact with myself or my FAMI or Robert Forsland, of course, but nothing on her bail stipulation stated that she could not use the internet.
So it was like the moment she got home and had internet access, she created all sorts of forums and what they were like neck sopia pages where she would post pictures and post horrific, horrific comments about Matthew and my family. I mean it went to the I mean they called me a whore, They called me you know, they said that Matthew was a punk ass looking for trouble,
you name it. They tormented my she tormented my family. Well, when I say they, I have to include her family because also it was you know, her brothers and sisters. If I could just give you an idea, a little idea of what this family is like. This family, the Quinn family, Moe and Annabelle have five children, and all of their children, at some point in their lives, have been arrested and charged or incarcerated with violent crimes. Just after Matthew's murder.
Her brother.
Was on the BC wide most wanted lists for uttering threats and a violent assault with a weapon. So this is these are the type of this is. You know, these are the type of people that we're dealing with. And it didn't stop there when we finally did go to trial. Because she had been released out on bail, she could come and go in and out of the courthouse as she pleased, as long as she was with her parents. Her friends would show up at the courthouse. They would stand in front of my family and take
photos of themselves like trophy pictures. Those pictures would then end up on the internet with horrible statements against my family. No respect for the child that had been murdered. Her own father was taking those photos, you know, no respect for my family while we stood there grieving the loss. Most times we would have to go down into the
parcade to be free of the stairs and taunts. At one point, because I suffered with terrible, terrible separation anxiety from my daughter, I would on most occasions take my daughter, who was six months old at the time, to court with me. Dan and my husband and I would take turns going into the courtroom and the other would stay in the lounge with baby. And at one point I
needed some fresh air. I thought everybody had already gone back into the courtroom, and so I walked outside with my child and I looked over to my right and who was standing there but Catherine Quinn's brother. I've got a newborn baby in my arms. He's screaming and yelling, and I look behind me and thinking is he yelling at someone behind me? And I couldn't believe it. He
was yelling at me. When I listened, he was telling me I should come out to Surrey so they could beat the crap out of me too, And all I remember seeing is the sheriffs running towards the front door to come and grab me and bring me inside. And then when it was time to leave, the homicide investigators and police officers all walked to my husband and I and our newborn baby to our car because we feared for our lives.
Wow. Now to even increase your anxiety some more, you encountered the Canadian judicial system face on and had to deal with the defense attorney named Miller. I don't know his first name, but mister Miller. Yes, and you said his biggest issue brought forth in terms of what was the cell plant evidence, And that's where an undercover police officer was put in the cells immediately after Karen Quinn was or Kaptain Quinn was arrested. What information did they get from that undercover.
Before that night? It was fantastic evidence. He really fought so hard to have that struck out. Unfortunately it was used during the first trial. The officer did state that Catherine Quinn told her in in you know, no uncertain terms.
That they were screwed, that you know that you know she had.
Handed Foresland's this beer bottle, I mean, you name it. She basically confessed to this under cover officer. Our problem was later on when she would use that to appeal, saying that the undercover officer wasn't wired nor was it recorded.
That the undercover officer must have you know, been what were the words that they used, like had seen something in the media, had been you know, infused with with you know, had put her own opinion in there because she had already heard and seen on the news what had happened, right right, Yeah, Yeah, it was very, very incriminating.
So on the basis of that evidence and other evidence, she decided, and her lawyer must have decided as well. On April ninth, she took the stand. Yes, why do you think she and her lawyer decide to do that? And tell us about her testimony and their demeanor during that day of testimony.
To tell you the truth down, I don't think James Miller wanted Quinn to testify. I think she basically said, I want to get up there, I want to tell my side of the story. And I think he knew that she was going to, honestly, you know, hang herself. Basically. That's a terrible thing to say, but that's exactly what she was going to do up there. What you have to understand is, I think Catherine Quinn what she.
Wants she gets.
She's got that type of personality. She's very manipulative, very it's my way or the highway, and when she got up on the stand. I mean, it really really was.
I mean, she basically said that she didn't get out of the car, she didn't see what Robert Foresland was doing to Matthew, that Matthew had stabbed her, you know, And honestly, the jury saw right through that, especially because in the in the video surveillance, it clearly clearly shows Catherine Quinn, you know, out of the car, and you know, the witnesses stated that she was in their face talking to them.
So it really was.
I don't know why she took the stand. She made it that much worse for herself.
So she wasn't an effective witness whatsoever.
On her own. No, No, she wasn't.
No.
Answered to the allegation that there was there was a strong allegation and important part of the trial that there was a statement something to the effect you love she yelled to Robert Foresland, her boyfriend you, if you love you will kill him.
That's correct. Many witnesses that were there that night, three or I think three or four of them that took the stand all said the same thing that Catherine Quinn was yelling. If you love me, you'll kill him, babe. Many of them heard that, and that's you know, that's the whole thing with the appeal that you know Miller felt that, you know, it's not possible from where they were standing that far away that they could hear Catherine Quinn clearly stating this.
It's and but.
All four witnesses did state that she did say that, and she still to this day denies it.
Right right now, you also talked about that the tactics that the defense lawyer Miller used you were very You talked quite extensively about how you were disgusted by his techniques. You even said that when she her testimony, you believe was coached and prepare. But if you really think he told blaytant lies that he knew his clients was perjuring herself on the stand and still allow that, I don't know.
If you know, consciously I want to say no, because I you know, I honestly don't want to believe that any defense lawyer would would do that. But subconsciously, I think Miller's the type of man that doesn't want to lose, and he made that quite clear.
He I've never seen.
Anything like it in my life other than on TV. Dan I Honestly, I don't even know how to best describe Miller other than incredibly theatrical. You know, he would swing, he would grab hold of his of his robe and like sway it around him like like a vampire would, and he would yell and scream, and his veins would be bulging out of his forehead. And I remember sitting there thinking, dear Lord, I hope there are paramedics outside, because this man is going to have a heart attack
right here. I've never in my life seen anything like it other than on TV or in the theater actors. So it was intolerable at times. And and and he was incorrigible. I mean he would, you know, say things that were were untrue.
You know.
He would start saying how Matthew was an addict and he had all these drugs in his system, and you know, and and we had just had the you know, the doctor there stating that Matthew had pizza and Coca cola and his stomach had some marijuana in his system, but it was three nanograms, you know, So where he got off trying to say that my child was this drug addict. Even at one point he called my son a mess addict it wasn't there.
Some talk that he could have actually stabbed or had a rep.
Yes, yes, yes, you know they thought at first, you know, they talked about a pen knife, and then a knife in a little box was found outside a tool shed by the police. But it was still contained in this almost like a gardening knife in a in a little sealed box. But there were there were no I mean they fingerprinted it. There were no prints on this knife. There was no blood on the knife. It's just that Quinn stated that it was Matthew's knife, but it was never proven, never proven that Matthew.
Had a knife.
So overall your experiences that you talked about in most books that you had a negative experience with your journey through the Canadian judicial systems. You were disappointed with the tactics, the depiction of your son as some sort of criminal to deflect from from the guilt of Catherine Quinn and Robert Forsland. There was you were fairly disappointed. There was a janitor apparently it was at the train station that just did his work and ignored the murder that was going on in front of us.
Yeah, you know, and on the video surveillance.
I've been told that.
You actually see the skytrain cleaner there, the janitor waiting for them to move, like Forceland to move out of his way so he can get his cart around them. He did nothing to help my child. My child begged for help while he was still conscious, begged for mercy. He had already handed over every little thing he had,
his wallet, his shoes. When when Foresland was picked up at the hospital, they Forthland had Matthew's chaining crucifix, Matthew's watch, Matthew's diamond earring, Matthew's shoes were gone when they got there. He had all Matthew's wallet, Matthew's cell phone, Matthew's house keys, He had all of Matty's things.
So both Casi and Quinn and Robert Foreslund were charged and obviously sentenced and convicted a second degree murder. Yes, in your next book, Cry for Justice, murdered Child's legacy. This story gets even more crazy and more twisted as Catherine Quinn has offered a new trial that's correct.
Right on the same day in which Catherine Quinn was sentenced, Miller would charge out of that courtroom to the outside to the media, stating that his client was going to
be appealing, which we had already been warned. We had already been told by our Crown prosecutors that eighty percent of those convicted of second degree and first degree murder will appeal their sentence or conviction or both, so we were kind of prepared for that, and we had, of course followed the Kelly Ellard story for Arina K's parents the eleven years they fought for justice, so we were
sort of prepared for that. So of course he was out there yelling and screaming they were going to appeal, and we waited that thirty days, and sure enough, on the thirtieth day we had, you know, she had applied for her appeal. And then within I think three months, we had found out that the appeal had been granted. And so once again we were thrust into the Canadian criminal justice system, and just constantly it just felt like as soon as you were able to breathe, you were
punched again and punched again. I felt as though I couldn't catch my breast, and I felt it was always geared towards Catherine Quinn. Everything was for Catherine Quinn. Yet our family was constantly left in the dark, no resources no help. Everything we did we had to do for ourselves, whereas it seemed like every little thing was there for Catherine Quinn right.
Nice, you form this organization called FACT Families Against Crime and Trauma. Tell us a little bit more about the organization as status right now. I know that you have a fair amount of members and you're taking some headway, yes with your cause. Tell us a little more about the group specifically, what you're most trying to change specifically, and how people, if they are interested and moved by this interview, can contact you about some more information.
Absolutely, Families Against Crime and Trauma is an organization for anyone affected by a violent crime, regardless of whether there was a homicide or not. I think our biggest hope, in our biggest aspiration, is to be able to get families and resources, financial and therapeutic in a very timely manner. I think that that is key to being able to
grieve and heal properly. When you're able to just focus on healing and grieving and not all the other stuff going on around you, that is is incredibly important, and I think that's one of the things that we strive. It's the most important thing that we strive to find for families. Our second goal, of course, is to keep on top of these laws and pieces of legislation that you know are are antiquated and need amendments. So right now we're working on the you know, the the bail stipulations.
So it's our Judicial Interim Release Act, in which you know, we'd like to see you know, that that those who are incarcerated and those who are out on bail in the community aren't allowed to be on Facebook and any of these social media networks to to you know, why should they be on the internet. Why should their victims have to endure that? But you know, it's just not right. The other things that are really important to us is to see that changes be made to the Crime Victims
Assistance Act. And I know that that difference for a difference from province to province. Some provinces don't even have a victim's assistance program there, so it will all differ
across Canada. But that's something that's very important. We need for our government to see that the loss loss of wages that they're giving for I think it's like eight dollars an hour just isn't really it does not reflect today's standards of living for families, especially with children, that needs to improve how much they are helping families with funeral costs and other things. There there are many many things that aren't even in place that we feel should
be in place. A dental is another thing that we feel that victims even though sometimes you know during a crime that the teeth aren't you know, broken or chipped, but what happens is afterwards from the post traumatic stress disorder, they end up you know, there is a lot of damage to the teeth. They're in a lot of pain. I think that that should be incorporated and should be taken care of. So lots of little things down I mean, I could spend hours with you giving you a list of the things.
That FACT does. We're multi faceted.
I think the best thing I can suggest for your listeners is to please visit our website at TRIPLEW dot Families Against Crime dot org. Uh there is a huge you know, there's tabs you can go into perhaps that will answer more of your questions of you know, what we do and and the other thing I suggest is if your viewers and your listeners would like to read the books, is that they visit the Whibs a website.
They can order online directly. That would mean the world to us because proceeds from the sales of the book do You Go to does go to fact and that helps us in our you know, to pursue our cause and to help other victims, for.
Those in America. Is this book available through Amazon and Barnes and Noble.
I think that my publishing company is trying to get that on there. I know, when you punch it up, you know, the book will come up, but it says that it's currently unavailable. So I think the best thing to do is either go to the Last six Minutes dot com or Aspirations Publishing dot com and you can order them directly online. They'll be sent to you overnight shipping. So you know, I think that's your best bet for now.
I'd love to see my books in the US though.
Yeah. Great, Yeah, So that's people been listening to the program. You've been talking about your book the last six minutes, and we just alluded to the book that came out the next year, twenty ten. This one came out in two thousand and nine was Cry for Justice, Some murdered Child's legacy. So it's a continuum of your deal and your journey through the Canadian judicial system, your dispatisfaction, but then your call for action, and people have responded in
this country. And I think people can relate to you in America because they've been going through this nightmare for years with they understand murder. I think even more so than Canadians who still think it doesn't happen in our backyard.
So exactly, Dan, Well, thank you so much.
Well, thank you very much shift for joining me us on this program, and the best of luck with your group Fact and with your two great books, the Last six Minutes and Cry for Justice.
Great thank you, thank you very.
Much much, Bye bye. You've been listening to the program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Join me next time. Good night,