THE LAST CHICAGO BOSS-Kerrie Droban

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money laundering, and assassinations. Then a shocking medical diagnosis knocked James sideways, forcing him to face a new life on the outside of the organization he built, dodging snitches, federal

law enforcement, and contract hits. In the Last Chicago Boss, James provides a startling and unprecedented expose into the inner workings of the Outlaw Nation from the unique perspective of its renowned leader, all brought to life through never before revealed interviews, police files, wire taps, recordings, and trial transcripts. Bookd featuring this evening is The Last Chicago Boss. My Life with the Chicago Outlaws was my special guest journalist,

author and attorney Carrie Drobin. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Carrie Drobin, thank.

Crime Award. Tell us a little bit about your background, some of the books you've written, and why you say very early in the book that this is almost perhaps the culmination of your life's work. Tell us a little bit about what this book means to you and how you came to want to write this book. Tell us a little bit about that background.

It was the first ever infiltration of the Hell's Angels by law enforcement. And it was a book or a project that I turned down three times. I had no experience, I had no agent, I had never written true crime before. I had no background even in journalism. As I said,

I was a novelist and a lawyer. So I didn't really have a concept of how big a deal this original book was and how tremendous a project it was going to be, and so I approached it sort of as ignorance as Bliss at the time, and I began just sort of I hit the ground running, and I started doing interviews with the operatives involved, and ironically I realized halfway through that even though I had turned down this project, I really was probably exactly the right person

to write that book. And I was primed for writing other outlaw motorcycle books because I grew up living in an undercover world. My parents both were covert, and so I was already living an undercover life, and at the time I was married to a detective homicide detective who worked largely undercover, and so my whole life at the time was very much living a double life. So I could relate very well to the operatives in Operation Black Biscuit, and so I was actually, I mean, that book sort

of set that the framework for my later work. And so when I finished Running with the Devil and the odyssey that that created, I had somebody say to me, you know, don't be surprised if you get approached by someone from a rival gang who wants you to write their story from the inside. And at the time I thought that was hilarious, and in fact, that is exactly

what happened. And I was approached by Anthony Mangini, who is lt in the book Prodigal Father Pagan's son, and he was born into what he called it he describes as born into madness, and so he was born into the organized crime family where his father was the founder of the Pagans motorcycle gang, and they are one of the chief rivals. They're one of the Big five. And so he asked me to write his story, and then

I wrote enough. After that book came out, Charles Falco, who is the subject of Vogo's Mongols and Outlaws, read Running with the Devil and came to me and asked me to write his story. So they sort of really sort of piggybacked on each other. And Big Pete, ironically enough, his clubhouse, his North Side clubhouse, was prominently featured in Vogo's Mongols and Outlaws, and Charles Falco, who was an infiltrator, had actually been in attended parties at Big Pete's clubhouse.

So when Peter James aka Big Pete read Voggo's Mongols and Outlaws, he identified that and he called me up and he said, you know, I have a story. I am. I was the boss of the Chicago Outlaws, and I'd like you to write my story. So everything sort of, you know, piggybacked from Running with the Devil, and I developed a niche and an expertise in this area, and

that's how I came to write these books. And so to answer your question, how is this the culmination of my life's work, Well, Big Pete's book, in his story, it took about two years to interview him, research it, and write the book, and it took a lot out of me, and I realized, you know, in working with Peter James, he was a phenomenal character, just a master storyteller,

very funny person. And through the course of my interviews with him, I learned not only so much about the Chicago outlaws, the gang lifestyle, motorcycle gangs, one percenter gangs, but I also learned an awful lot about myself, and you know what compelled me to write in this kind of underworld that I was very familiar with. So it was a really fascinating.

siblings who attended college. He joined fraternity, he played football, He had aspirations that once upon a time, to be in politics. He was a very smart, kind of cutting person. But what really influenced him was he had read The Godfather from a very early age. The Godfather was like his Bible, and he had read it at least seven times before he was twenty one, and he had highlighted various passages and could quote from it. And that was

really a huge influence for him. He also was very influenced by his uncle, who went to Marquette, and he was a very well educated man. He was a businessman originally, and he went to school to become a CPA. But what happened with his uncle was his uncle sort of introduced him to the glamorous lifestyle of Chicago. He would show up periodically and take him into the city, and Pete just fell in love with Chicago. In fact, in the book, I kind of equate Chicago, who is almost

a metaphorical mistress for him. It was somewhat of a just a magical, fantastical place, and his uncle really personified that for him and showed him that this was the life he could have. So his uncle eventually winds up finding him his life in the course races, and so he kind of qua I introduces him to that underworld, and Pete is measmerized by it, So he's influenced by that.

He's also influenced that. One of the really interesting things I found in this book is here's this family who's very very close to They play board games as as children, and that's that's their form of or their major form of entertainment. So they played Risk and the Chinese game Go, they played Monopoly, and so through the board games and this is really how I framed his memoir, he learned how to, you know, use pawns to move across the board and put people in checkmate. He learned how to

take over territories by playing the game Risk. He learned about properties and boundaries from playing Monopoly, and so these were all huge influences in his life and really sort of led him every He says in the book that everything he did in his life led him one step closer to his goal of becoming boss, and he saw

the Outlaws as a vehicle to become the Boss. So it wasn't necessarily that he wanted to join a biker gang, because as his story progresses, you can see how he's become the leader of almost every i want to say, prototype of what ultimately he would become. So he becomes a frat leader, for example, and he learns how to you know, manipulate the frat brothers that he has. He becomes an Order of the Moose when he joins the

you know, the Moose Lodge. So everything that he does, even you know, forms his own clubs, he's every every step he takes is a step toward becoming that basically, the CEO of a criminal organization and become the Boss of Chicago.

be the boss. You also talk about that he realizes that education is a key, and so it's not incongruous to be a tough guy but also be educated. And also he talks about his love of football, or at least his skill in football. So what does his athletic ability, at least at that time, and his idea that education is important, how does that what does he do with that?

a televangelist. Because what he realizes early on is that with education, knowledge is power, and he can manipulate you know what, he perceives as underlings people that are not as smart as he is or not as cunning as he is. And so, you know, as he rises in the ranks, he finds vehicles aka the Chicago Outlaws, to elevate him and to give him some kind of clout in the world of the mob, you know, the outfit, and in the world of basically being able to corral

thirty eight other clubs to under his umbrella. So he sees education as a way to get power and a way to really manipulate. I guess is a better way to say it. But he's basically manipulating people that are not as smart as he is or as cunning as

he is. And the whole idea that he plays in football is again it's employing the whole metaphor of gamesmanship, because he is almost Some people refer to him in the book as the gentleman gangster because he's he's very fair, he's very smart, but in the end he always gets what he wants. And so in football everything is rules, and you have rules of engagement, and you play by the rules, and each person has their own position in

the game. And you know, he would argue that it's positions of hierarchy, you know, so not you know each member of the team. You operate as an ensemble, but each team member has their specific do and role. And so that's very much akin to what it was like

to run an outlaw motorcycle organization. There's rules and hierarchies and rank and file, and everyone operates as an ensemble, right, all for one, one for all, But everybody knows, you know where they are in the pecking order, and everyone knows the rules of the game.

So it's very important for the outlaws to maintain that control and that territory, and then that's the whole objective of the game. So you have when the Outlaws changed considerably since the early nineties, and Peete's rerain went from the nineties to about twenty fifteen. The core values remained the same, but during the early nineties there was a movement to defend turf against the Hell's Angels, and so Chicago was there was like a warlike frenzy going on.

It was a hunter prey mentality, and there was even the sort of mantra cripple or kill, cripple or kill the enemy.

their territory. And in nineteen ninety four, Taco Bowman, who was the Outlaws international president and he's now serving life in prison, he led the charge when he ordered the Outlaw regional boss at that time to bomb the Health Henchmen.

And so there were a number of fire bombings that went on, and it was, you know, the Outlaws had a presence in Chicago that you know, they were known as the this dangerous, reckless group of you know, Hellians that were that were firebombing things just to keep the Health Henchmen from encroaching on their territory and obviously the

healths Angels. So what happened during Pete's reign was very interesting because Pete says often in his book that you know, if you don't have if you're building an army and there isn't a war, then your soldiers are going to become lax. And so, you know, what was happening was

he was having meetings and runs. You know, runs were events that were organized by the Outlaws, and there would be Outlaws who would either be late to the meetings, not show up at all, or ask Pete, you know, could we skip this week because I have to take my old lady out for a Valentine's Day, you know event. So it was almost diluting the presence of the outlaws because there wasn't a real war. So what Pete had to do, which was cometic and also functional, was he

had to invent a fake war. So he would corral the outlaws on a weekly basis and he would go hunting, and he would hunt for Hell's Angels. Hell's Angels that, by the way, did not exist in the places that he took this group of outlaws too. So he would convince the outlaws that he was training that Hell's Angels

were everywhere they were encroaching in on their territory. They had to go to these various bars and scout them out, so they would wind up in brawls with mostly Polish community had nothing to do with Hell's Angels at all, but he had to keep that image going and that persona going. And so there are a number of very funny scenes I think in Last Chicago Boss that really highlight that, including this whole crazy excursion to Sturgis where

they're surrounded by Hell's Angels. They think they're surrounded by Hell's angels and they're going to be bombed at any moment or sniped, and it's just not the reality. But they have to keep illusion up in order to keep the whole goal and objective. The whole reason for the Outlaws to exist is to defend their territory. So if there isn't anything to defend, then you know, they cease to become this dangerous, powerful presence.

modicum of control over everyone. So he had women in positions. You know, he formed this Confederation of clubs. So women were not members of the Outlaws, but they were They held positions like secretary in the Confederation of Clubs, which was unheard of because Outlaws did not answer to women. And so that was one, you know, thing that he completely dissected and changed. The other thing he did was he corralled a host of African American clubs that were

under his umbrella. And he had this this real ability to. He just had such charisma and charm that he was able to get these clubs to follow him and so, and that's it's really unprecedented in the biker culture to do that. So he had he wanted to dispel that myths that they that the Outlaws were a white supremacist organization. But mostly the reason he did it was he believed that if you didn't you know, clubs were going to

form anyway. They and he had them approach him almost on a weekly basis, thing, you and we want to form a club. And so they had to get Pete's approval to form a club because Pete was boss. So if Pete said no, these clubs would form anyway, they would go underground and he would have no control over them. And that is in fact what happened to one of the clubs that's described in a book, where they become rogue clubs, and when they're rogues, then they become a threat.

So Pete's idea was get them all under his wing so he could at least know who the players were, know what they were up to, what territories they controlled, and he would be able to control them and manipulate

them as needed. So it was a very smart move on his part and it was unprecedented, and I think even he would say, you know, the core values of the Outlaws were the same throughout, but that was one way that he splintered off and was able to really gain a foothold and tremendous power in the city of Chicago.

this book. Some of the stuff was incredible.

to control what areas. In the nineties, this was particularly prevalent. Prevalent under Taco Bowman's rule. They would have just horrific murders were it with almost execution style. There would be There's one I think described that I describe in the book where the body is dragged the body of a woman actually is dragged for miles until parts of her start to fall off and you know, into the roadway.

And so there's no there's no end really to the brutality or the brutal measures that they will take to maintain their turf. I mean everything from fire bombings to executions to you know, like like I described the bodies being dragged across the roadways. There was a when they when the Outlaws go to Sturgis's described in the book. They they hear of to somebody being gunned down while they're getting an ice cream cone at you know, a

convenience store. So it was that random and that brutal, and so the presence and the fear of you know, being sniped or being hunted down was definitely real. And there are mentions, you know, there's there's this, I mean, it's kind of it's written in a cometic style, but really what happens is Pete has you know, he describes it as basket number one and basket number two, and so basket number one are problems that are handled, and they can be handled easily without you know, any hint

of violence. Basket number two requires more, you know, stronger measures. And so the implication with basket number two problem children are they need a heavier hand, and so sometimes that heavy hand is going to result in beatings. And the beatings, you know, I think Pete's phrases, you know, you don't have a good brawl or good beating until somebody goes

to the hospital. And so that's really what happened at you know, they Pete would round up his his soldiers or his his recruits and they would go to different bars in Chicago and they would just start brawls. And the bar fights were not what you and I might think of as a bar fight. These were bar fights where people almost died during the bar fights, you know, and so people would go to the hospital there were

you know, heads were stomped on. I mean, so that was really is really part of the culture of the biker culture. And so I think it's a it's a bit of a misnomer where the public is so enamored with the biker culture. I mean, I know, like sounds of anarchy, for example, glamorized in some parts the biker culture in the same way that maybe the Sopranos did. But you know, TV and reality are very different and so so so yeah, that's that's really what's going on behind the scenes.

into that in a minute. But so there are law enforcement personnel who will join biker clubs, and the biker clubs are very very so they have very similar trappings to the outlaw motorcycle gangs that they are actually trying to control and cripple. So what happens in Chicago and in Big Pete's book is that he befriends a lot of the police officers because his mantra is, again, it's better to have, you know, cops that are friends rather

than being friendly to cops. And what he means by that is that, you know, he the cops needed the outlaws in order to control the crime. Okay, it's a very strange symbiotic relationship, but the cops actually welcome them in.

have the cops turned a blind eye. And so this was very prevalent, and I describe it in the book, particularly with one group of police department and one shift it was the night shift, and these police officers were they turned a blind eye to the outlaws, but not to the point where they shunned them. They actually wanted to be a part of them. And so Rebel Knights is a motorcycle cops motorcycle group that you know, espouses things, you know, we are a club do we just like

to ride motorcycles. We enjoy motorcycle riding. And that's what they have in common with outlaw biker groups. The differences, as they would argue, is that one engages in criminal activity and the other does not. But the very strange thing about that is is it's a fine line because if you even go on their websites, you can see the similarities. They have a they have bylaws and the constitution, they have club dues, club rules, they have a member's

only roster. They don't allow women, and I think that some of the cop clubs now may allow women in, but not in positions of power, even down to some of the music that is on the different websites. It's very interesting and strange. But if you look at outlaw biker gangs, they borrow the rank and file and hierarchy structure from the military, as do police agencies. So they're borrowing from very similar systems, but one is warping it

and the other is not. And I kind of lead that leave that up to their reader's discretion as to whether or not that's the case, because there's a very fine line. In fact, there's a scene in the book I describe where the police officers have several tattoos which you know, identify them with their particular police club, and they were getting in trouble or reprimanded by their police agencies for having these tattoos because it was difficult to

differentiate the police officers from the gangsters. And so that's also very very similar to what happens in biker gangs. You know, you'll have the tattoos identifying with them to the particular biker gangs. You know, they all have to have a certain type of motorcycle, they all have to follow a certain rank and file, they all have rules.

So it's really it's fascinating, and I think Pete's book highlights that more than any of my other books, although I'm certain it's prevalent in other biker gangs as well.

so he's not really young. So tell us about what the probates really mean, what that can entail, and if you could just give us a little bit of this daddy dialogue that I was in the book, so.

a minimum requirement. Some will probate for years before they're actually sponsored in. So probate will have a sponsor who's usually already a member. Well, they have to be a member of the Outlaws gang or biker gang. Sometimes there in Pete's case, he was sponsored by a regional boss, which is not normal, but that's what happened. So when you probate, very similar to a fraternity, where you're going in as a pledge and you're prospecting for that particular fraternity.

So Pete was probating for the Outlaws. So you have to envision this. So Pete has already been the top of every organization that he's formed or been a member of, So he was the top of his fraternity. He was the governor of the moose. He had his own club prior to being an outlaw, which was called the Loyal Order. He was the president of the Loyal Order, so he was already primed to be an outlaw because that was his goal, but he still had to start at the bottom,

so he was and he has this wonderful scene. So Big Pete is big, Okay, he's larger than life and he's also a very large man, and so he describes it as he was actually protected somewhat because of his size. So the other big members took him under his wing and sort of you know, pulled him aside and didn't have him do a lot of the real grunt work that a lot of the probates do. But essentially they work as slaves. I mean they have to be at the beck and call of any member to do whatever.

So some for example, will have to stand hours and hours in tremendous heat without any water or food or anything, and they'll stand for you know, twenty four hours or more just because they're supposed to guard motorcycles. But the thing that Pete describes is he's they're emasculated. So they're not even given a name, they're not identified by names. They're identified as probate or if they're asked, you know,

the thing that you're describing is who's your daddy. So he had to basically say, you know, my daddy is you know, whoever his sponsor was, and so people couldn't believe that he had a regional boss sponsoring him. So they didn't believe him when he said, you know, my daddy is so and so and so. Then they would

make fun of him. They'd say, you know, he'd say my name is Big Pete and they'd say, well, we're going to call you Peter Pan, you know, or p d and so they would they would try to emasculate them, and that's really similar to hazing. So the whole purpose of probating is to break you down so that if you can't make it through the probationary period, then you can't make it as an outlaw. So, you know, in addition to trying to dehydrate people, they will you know,

make you serve them beer. They'll make you stand behind the bar, and sometimes you're in the middle of a fight that happens and you get beaten up. There's a you know, so there are a number of scenes like that where he's he's somewhat protected because he's big and he's pulled aside, but he's also subjected to the emasculation of you know, these other members, which is very difficult for Pete, as you can imagine, because he's used to being in a position of power.

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the Chicago Outlaws. Let's talk about some more serious stuff, just to demonstrate, as you do in the book His Power, the seriousness of the situation, their ongoing fight with the Hell's Angels. When you talk about the Odium swap meet in Chicagoland, tell us about what they thought this was, how this thing turns into something much worse, and also explaining the people that think that they can be neutral and not be involved in the fight between Outlaws and Hell's Angels.

So they had the Odium swap meet was a big deal, and it was the sponsor or, the person that was organizing the Odeum Swap Meet traditionally always knew that this was an outlaw venue, and so you know, they would they would be prepared for the Outlaws to appear at this venue. And what happened during this particular Odium swap meet was the Outlaws were not prepared and so what they encountered when they arrived was they had to stand in line like the others in order to get into

the swap meat. And the reason that it turned into a disaster was because it was spearheaded by a person by the name of Santa, who's identified in the book. And he doesn't know he's kind of operating it from the framework of a corporate entity instead of you know, we're a criminal we're a criminal syndicate. So so he's trying to follow the rules as if he was a

corporate player. So he stands in line and he tells big Pe, you know, we have to stand in line, we have to check our weapons at the door, you know, all this stuff. So he's trying to play by the rules of you know, the square world, the quote unquote square world, which isn't how it operates inside the Odium Swapmeet. So Pete knows the score and he knows what's about

to happen. And so they arrive a day after everything's been set up, So all the booths have already been set up in the Odium Swap Meet, and so Pete knows that if the booths have already been set up, then whoever's setting up those booths aka Hell's Angels could stash weapons under you know, the venue or the boots. So he's already prepared and he tries to prepare his men, you know, the people from his club that this could potentially happen, and they don't have anything. They're not armed

except with pocketknivees. So one of the members of their group winds up just creating kind of chaos in the swap meet because he's trying to find the weapons. He's trying to uncover whatever, you know, ambush they're about to happen, And sure enough, they do get ambushed, and one of the members get stabbed and so at this and then of course they flee because they don't want to be

there when the police arrive. But what happens at this swap meet is Pete encounters a group that is not affiliated with any particular turf, so they call it they want to be neutral, and there's no such thing in Chicago as to be neutral, because you have to align yourself with either the Outlaws AKA one of the subsidiary groups who is part of the Confederation is also part of the Outlaws and under the Outlaws wing, or you're just going to be flying solo and if you're flying solo,

you're you're just open to be attacked and you're not going to have any defense. Nobody's going to come to your aid. So it's really impossible to be a neutral club. And Pete demonstrates this because one of the members, who you know this neutral party is, gets stabbed, you know, or sees the stabbing, and he comes to Pete after the swap meet and he knocks on Pete's door and he's just frantic, and he says, you know, okay, okay, we don't want to be neutral anymore. Where we want

to be We want to join the outlaws. And Pete slams the doorness space and he says, you know what, it's too late. You've already aligned yourself as a neutral party, so you're on your own. So it really emphasizes the danger of being individual. You can't be individual in this world. You have to conform, and you have to conform to the criminal syndicate that controls the entire city. So it's

pretty eye opening because everyone has their their faction. I mean, either you're part of the outfit or the mom or you're part of the outlaws, or you're part of that group of thirty eight clubs that is under the confederation under aka the Outlaws.

So you could tell us a little bit about Pete and his idea and his influence from the outfit.

going and collecting debts for the outfit. So he would go and drive up to people's houses and take all of their property, you know, but he was very polite about it. You know, he would say, I'm taking this, and you know, he would leave. Sometimes he would leave one hundred dollars for you know, the remains, so that they wouldn't be completely destitute. So, you know, again gentleman gangster. But so he was able to work his way into the outfit to at least get some respect from them.

So he took that cue because you can't again, you can't have any rogues in this culture. There can't be an independent and there can't be a neutral. So the Lama group was again a group of it was the forget what it stands for now Latin Motorcycle Association. But they didn't want any part of the Outlaws. They didn't want to be controlled by them, and they kept showing up at this venue that again was predominantly the outlaw venue.

And so when they showed up the first time, Pete warned the president of the Lama group, he said, you know, you can't come here again. This is my turf. And he told the owner of that venue that they were not to have the Lama Group there because this was again outlaw turf. So he gave him a past the first time. The second time he shows up and a Lamas are there again, and this time he says, you know, we're going to have a brawl because this is our turf and you're not listening to us. And so there

would be instances where he encountered the LAMA members. You know, he didn't have it at that venue out of respect for that owner, because that's what the outfit would do, right, They wouldn't create a scene at that place. So what happens later on when he encounters a LAMA member, you know, that's when the threat becomes real, and that's when the

fight becomes real. And the guy, the LAMA member, goes home and he's got you know, a broke nose, or he's completely beaten up, or he threatens him and says, you know you're going to find you know, a body part of you if you don't watch out, you know, cut off your ear and have that as warning not to encroach on outlaw turf.

he'll say, we're going to get the white van. And you know, I don't want to know any details. I don't want to know too much information, but whatever you have to do, I just want you to report back to me that the job has been done. So that's how he removes himself from from the actual activities. So when law enforcement, and he's very careful to never be recorded.

That was his big thing. You know, I don't ever want to hear my voice on tape because that means that I've been surveiled and that I've you know, given out information. So he cautions his his crew, the outlaws that they're in his his club or in his chapter, that they're not to speak in reguar regular language. So he'll say things to bus starter like, you know, how was the cheeseburger or how was the you know that

is the hamburger well done? You know, and things like that, so that he's never caught in that kind of scenario. So so when the Feds do surveil him, in fact, he describes I mean, it's it's really quite crazy that there are several instances where Pete knows that the federal surveillance van is across the street from him watching him, but he's never caught in anything because he's never the one doing it. His hands are never dirty, so he'll be the one that delegates, he'll be the one that

follows up, but he's always removed from the scene. There's one particular case that the FEDS are watching pretty closely where Pete installs gambling machines in different clubhouses, but he's very careful to never install one in his own clubhouse. So when the FEDS are surveilling this activity or this gambling activity, Pete's very confident that he's never going to get pulled into it because he doesn't have one in his own clubhouse. You know, he's not the one that's

you know, his hands aren't dirty. In other words, other people are doing it, so, you know, and he'll he'll caution them, you know, he'll say, well, you know, use, he'll use code language when they're collecting money from the gambling machine. So it's all very well orchestrated and very well masterminded. And that's how he keeps himself separate. So so when the FEDS, you know, will find a van with blood in it, they can never trace it back to Pete because he's not directly in it.

around the area. And so the outlaws kept to themselves in this campground and they believed for you know, several days that they were going to be ambushed or sniped by the House Angels because they didn't have a lot of information, They didn't know what it actually happened or transpired. They just knew that something had happened up the road from them in Sturgis. So they never actually got to Sturgis.

So on one particular you know outing where they were allowed out of their campground, they were escorted by police to a neighboring town. Again not Sturgis, just a neighboring town where they could get pizza. And you know, there wasn't even anything to do in this neighboring town. It was it was it was kind of a ridiculous outing. But I described it in the book, and this is exactly how it happened. They they got on all of their their gang you know regalia. They they wore all

of their outlaw insignia. They got onto their bikes and they were going to show a real show of force where they were all going to ride and packs and get to this neighboring town. And so so there's this this tremendous show of force. The police escort them there and and the police you know, pick them up and take them back. But on the way back, Pete is leading this pack and he runs into a deer and the deer is the force of his motorcycle sends the

deer into a ditch. And Pete's motorcycle is a little bit, you know, messed up, So he pulls off to the side of the road. He's in the ditch. It's starting to get nightfall, and he tells the rest of his group, you know, go on ahead, I'm going to wait here. I'm gonna fix my bike. But he is alone in this ditch, and the whole his thought pattern is, oh my god, you know, I'm a moving target for any Hell's Angel sniper. I'm just sitting out here in a ditch with a dead deer. And nobody from his pack

stays with them. In fact, they're all whizzing by him and they and they say, you know, we have to get back to the campgun before nightfall. So nobody's with him, and so finally pe Pete decides, you know, there's no way he's going to be a sitting duck for the Hell's Angels. So he waves down a police officer, and the police officer says, you know, well, you killed a deer. You know you can get a ticket for that out here, because you know, you're not allowed to kill a deer.

So the whole scenario is very absurd that here's Pete worried about getting sniped by a Hell's Angel. The cop is about to write him a ticket for killing a deer, and then Pete turns it around and he says, well, if you're going to write me a ticket. I need to get back to my campsite safely, and so I'm going to need a police escort, And so he flips it around and the police wind up escorting him back to his campground so that Pete is not sniped by, you know, a Hell's Angel that might be lingering in

the bushes or the woods. So that's an excellent example of how cunning and smart and manipulative Pete is because he's going to use the situation to his advantage, and he certainly did in this very it's actually a very hilarious scene in the book. But he flips it around, you know, and gets what he wants out of it.

successful at that. But he did get a lot of flak from his own for that, because they didn't want to First of all, they didn't want to answer to a woman. Second of all, they didn't want to answer to, you know, any member of a Polish club. They didn't

want to answer to African Americans. But he was able to master this and so even though his own club members, the outlaws did not want to be a part of the National Confederation of Clubs because of this, you know, they started to dwindle, he stayed in that position of power. So even though he got flack, he was able to maintain that power. And I think his reasoning for the outlaws was, again, we don't want roague clubs. We want

them to support us. The more people that support us, the more Scouts so to speak, you have, you know, people that are aligned with the Outlaws, will keep the others at bay, they the Hell's Angels out, because ultimately that was the huge goal of keeping the Hell's Angels out. But he did have, you know, splinter groups within these thirty eight clubs that didn't want to follow Pete, and

that was a problem for him to contend with. So there was a Polish club in particular that you know, splintered off and when Pete eventually, i mean at first he denied them club ship when it could form a club, they went off and became a rogue club. So there was always that threat that people weren't going to follow him or going to form their own clubs, and so

that's what he was always contending with. But he was enormously successful at getting these clubs under his wing, and that again is very unprecedented that there's not been anyone else in the history of outlaw motorcycle gangs that has been able to accomplish that or do that.

of you know, holding down full time jobs. They were outlaws, you know, sometime or part time outlaws, and some of them weren't ready to follow anything they did. Some of them weren't even based in Chicago, they were based in the suburbs. So he was having a hard time contending with them. And so, you know, after a while where he would have meetings and you know, ask other outlaw chapters to attend, they would start to dwindle off. They

would say they had other functions to do. So you know, eventually there's a point in the book where he said, you know, becoming an outlaw as a lifestyle. It's not something that you do part time. It's not something that you do whenever you feel like it. You know, you have to commit to this. So he was having trouble with some of the leaders of some of these chapters committing to not only him, but the whole value system in the Outlaws, and so I think that was part of his part of his issue.

very much to support Pete in his endeavors. No matter what he wants to do, She's there to support him, and that gives her a lot of pleasure and a lot of personal satisfaction. And so she writes in there that in the book that while the public perspective or perception of being a female in the biker culture is they're treated worse than dogs, she had a personal goal. She wanted to be respected in this misogynistic world. She wanted to be respected as the best old lady they

had ever seen. And to her, that would give her enormous satisfaction because not only would she be supporting Pete, but she would be breaking the mold, so to speak. So she thrust herself into being the property of or the old lady of Big Pete, which is really a fascinating perspective. Now, Pete absolutely adores Debi, and that is

very evident through out the book. And so for him to balance what it means to be a boss right where he's constantly being barraged by women wanting to be not only you know, to have sex with him, but to introduce him to things that you know, I'm sure Debbie would not be happy with Pete's always having to balance that so, and he does that quite well in this world because his devotion in his love is always for Debbie and that never waivers, either before he becomes

an outlaw or even when he's an outlaw, and so he's always in the role and the In fact, at one point he tells her, you know, you can't come to these parties anymore because I can't protect you. So, you know, he treats her as an equal. But in the biker culture, women are not equal. Women are not

even classified as people in most scenarios. But Debbie lends a completely different perspective on that, and she introduces, you know, just she's wanting to She actually says in the book that she feels more comfortable in the biker world than she did in her corporate world, and it's because she has something that she needs to prove.

to back it or finance it. So that's how he initially meets Pinky, and Pinky goes on and she has this business where she's making bandanas with the Schwarsky crystals on the bandanas, and she's trying to market it to the bikers. And so Pete's involvement in that is he's trying to back it and trying to recoup a piece of the profit. But she's really, you know, spearheading the business. But she goes She calls him up at one point

and says, I'm going to Florida for vacation. Is there anybody down in Florida that I can stay with her that you can hook me up with? So he does. He hooks her up with you know, some of his friends, and so that's the last two years of it. But Pinky gets involved in she's trying to sell drugs to and she winds up selling them or engaging in drug activity and with an undercover and so as part of her pre bargaining or her deal to get a lesser sentence,

a lesser repercussion, she gives up Pete. She says, you know, I happen to know Big Pete. So when she makes this phone call the Peat, she says, you know, I may have said a few things to this undercover guy. I mean, this is how she describes it to Pete. And so Pete, you know, of course, has gone ballistic because not only does he have a double problem, he's got, you know, the Feds potentially on his back. Even though Pete hasn't done anything, he doesn't know what Pinky has

told them. And second of all, he doesn't want Debbie to find out about Pinky. You know, he doesn't want her to think that something else was going on with Pinky that wasn't going on. So he's got this whole thing going on in his head for this. But but the Feds do wind up showing up unannounced and they arrest Debbie and they arrest her for drug charges and it's just ludicrous and you know, nonsensical, but they arrest her and she winds up spending some time in jail

in Florida for charges that make absolutely no sense. And so Pete is beside himself and has to you know, figure out a way to get not only the charge is dropped, but Debbie out of jail. And he almost, you know, as what's tantamount to a nervous breakdown to try to rectify this and get her out because she's the last person in the world that would ever have any criminal charges or anything to do with with drug activity.

So that that's his close call with the Feds, and in ps he wins that the case gets dropped and you know, it's been a complete mistaken identity case and Debbie's released from jail, and the FEDS wind up paying Pete money for their mistake. So it's a it's just a crazy whirlwind, but it's it's not it's an irony

that he he almost doesn't recover from. You know, here he's led his entire life very you know, close, holding secrets, close to the vest, never you know, getting arrested for anything, having a great rapport with the police and the FEDS, and the last person he ever expects to turn on him is Pinky, you know. So it's almost like that famous line, you know, a woman can bring you down and so and so that's what happens in this case. And it's pretty out.

of course it didn't. It wound up being this you know, complete circus, complete overkill, and Debbie wasn't involved in it at all.

it's cancer. So when he learns that he has kidney cancer, he's devastated by the news because he realizes that it's the end of the road for him, you know, not necessarily because it's terminal, which it is, but because he will not be able to lead the way that he did, because he's going to have to go through medical procedures, and he's going to be relegated to a position of having to be subservient, which is not what he's used to.

And the real irony of that scene where he learns that he's got kidney cancer is the book opens where he is sort of in the waiting area of the regional boss Greece, who's been shot, and Greece has to convalesce for many months after the shooting. He's never the same, and so's it's an interesting, almost an ironic twist at the end that Pete finds himself in the same position.

And so when the book opens with Greece, many of the regional bosses are trying to discuss what to do with the problem of Greece, because you can't have somebody in a position of power who has to be on medical leave. So Pete is asked to step down. He's asked to resign because he can't lead and also go to all of these treatments for his cancer, and that's really devastating for him. So he doesn't gradually and he says, you know what, I'm I'm I'm going to be back.

You know, this isn't the end. I'm going to be back, and so he he appoints two people in positions of power, and he specifically picks people that he knows will not do a good job, and he does it on purpose because he doesn't want to be replaced. And he tells these two people, you know, I want you to report to me what's going on. So he thinks he can lead virtually, you know. And what happens, of course, is the two people that he appoints don't report back to him.

He starts to lose control of the people that he's appointed. He doesn't know what's going on at the parties anymore, and so he's distanced more and more because of his illness, and the regional boss has come to him and they say, you know, well, we want you to maintain or still begin in control of the COEC, which is the confederation of clubs, the thirty eight clubs that he's gotten under his wing, but we don't want you to be the boss of this outlaw chapter because you can't be that.

So for a while Pete tries to do that as well, and then he finally appoints somebody to take over that position because he just can't do it anymore. And so it's a very interesting you know, almost the escalation of power, and it's an interesting close to the chapter of his life. And when he started to tell me his story, it was a very interesting experience because, you know, he came to me and he said, you know, I want to

tell you my story. I am dying. I don't know when I'm going to die, but I'm dying and I want to make sure that the truth gets out there. So it was sort of like, you know, a priest taking a confessional, and it was it was an extraordinary experience, and it was also very moving for me because it's hard for me to know. I felt like I had a huge responsibility to tell the story the way that he wanted it told because he was not going to

be here for very much longer. And so it sped up the process for me of interviewing him and making sure that I got the book done and out before he died so that he could approve of it. So it was sort of hiss his last gasp, you know, to tell me everything, get it out on paper, and make sure that he his life story was preserved.

at the party. And so because the outlaws were snubbed Judas, who was the leader of that of Peach chapter at that time, and he asked Cyronic that his name is Judas, and he lived up to his name. But he went and invited himself and he crashed the party. And so when he got to the party, he took the leader of Twisted Images and he beat him to a pulp, almost killed him, but he beat him unconscious in front of his daughter, who I think at the time was seven,

and so Twisted Image. The leader of Twisted Images called up Pete and said, they're they're brutalizing me. They're here. You have to do something about it. And Pete was in a very interesting position because even though he was friends with this leader of Twisted Image, he could not disagree with what Judas had done. He couldn't disagree that the outlaws needed to show their presence, they needed to

get retribution for being snubbed from this party. So he was not against what Judas had done and bringing his varage of people there to beat up the leader. What he couldn't stand and what was so difficult for him to accept, was that the beating happened in front of the child. Pete had his own, you know, code of ethics, and he really despised people that hurt women and children. And he had a very hit a saft spot for you know, single moms or you know children, particularly because

he had such an adoration for his own mother. So while he agreed with what Judas did, he disagreed with how he did it. He could not have any type of retribution against Judas because then he would be going against his own in favor and in support of this support club Twisted Images. So it was a really interesting, almost symbolic of everything that Pete stood for and everything he needed to continue to stand for in order to be revered and respected in his own outlaw community.

really know quite what to give to an author. He said, if you had given a performance on stage and had done an amazing performance, you would give the performer roses. You know, That's how he equated it. So he sent

me roses. And then during the writing of the book he would send you know, good Dive of chocolates, and he sent me Chicago pizza because he wanted me to experience Chicago's I'd never been to Chicago, and so you know, through the whole writing of it, he was very respectful, very grateful, very considerate of the whole project because he was he was a fascinating person to interview, very funny, very smart. But you know, even he has said off and he's like, you know, I can be difficult, But

I actually didn't find him difficult. I found him very refreshing in a lot of ways. But so you know, towards the end of this, when the book actually came out, he was just so overwhelmed. He couldn't he said. He wrote to me, he said, I couldn't even imagine what it would be like to see not only his picture on the front cover, but to see his life story memorialize the way that it was. So he was he was very happy with it.

some ways. I mean, he he loved being an outlaw, he loved being the boss of the Chicago Outlaws, and he you know, he still upheld all of the core values of what the Biker Gang represented to him, but he was very disillusioned by the Biker Gang toward the later you of his life in that gang because not behaving the way that he really believed that they should behave or that they originally behaved when Taco Bowman was leading the charge, and he was very disappointed by that

and disillusioned by that. I mean, they weren't out there, you know, hunting house angels. They weren't really personifying the brutality in his mind that they used to do. So he wanted to show what the Outlaws really had become, which was, you know, this band of misfits that were gathering together that were almost play acting being outlaws rather

than being outlaws. And so he was very disappointed in that, and I think his hope would always be that they would return to the blood, blood thirsty, warrior like people that they once were. And I think his realization, or his sad reality, was that maybe they never would be that again because everything has changed now, you know everything, but the way the old Outlaws really had to reform and transform into become something else, and he was disappointed

in this illusion that they had not become that. So I think this book for him was as satisfaction that he was getting that out there. He didn't want there to be a misperception anymore. He wanted it to be an accurate rendition of who the Outlaws were.

captured incredibly in your book. I want to thank you very much much, Garry Drobin for coming on and talking about the Last Chicago Boss, my life with the Chicago Outlaws. For those people that might want to contact you or see some of your other work. Do you have a Facebook page, website? Tell us about how people might be able to contact you.