THE KILLING SEASON-Joshua Zeman and Rachel Mills

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Going Clear Scientology in the Prison of Belief. This eight episode series follows documentarians Joshua Zeeman Cropsey and Rachel Mills from Killer Legends as they investigate one of the most bizarre, unsolved serial killer cases of our time, the deaths of

ten sex workers discovered on Gilgo Beach, Long Island. Authorities believe these killings are the work of the Long Island serial killer, who after five years, remains at large, forging relationships with cyber sluice, journalists and victims families Zeemen and Mills uncover connections that suggest Long Island is just the beginning.

Through their investigation, the pair discover connections to unsolved murders from Atlantic City to Daytona Beach and beyond, revealing that serial killers are targeting sex workers in record numbers while using the Internet as their virtual hunting ground. The Killing Season will premiere with back to back episodes November twelfth. The Killing Season, the A and E documentary series, premiering November twelfth with my special guest documentary and filmmakers Joshua

Zeeman and Rachel Mills. Thank you very much for agreeing to this interview and welcome to the program. Joshua Zeeman and Rachel Mills. Thanks for having us, Thank you, thank you very much.

where you came from before this project. You're a producer and assistant director and you were known for Killer Legends just recently in twenty fourteen and Josh Zeeman, you were responsible for the Netflix Cropsy brilliant documentary in two thousand and nine, and you wrote and directed that, And you were both involved with Killer Legends, and you, as you say, investigated the origins of some of our most terrifying urban

legends and true stories that may have inspired them. Now with this the Killing season, tell us, I guess, maybe, Rachel, tell us, what was the genesis of the Killing Season? How did it come to be that both of you people decided to do this? Tell us what those circumstances were?

each other, back in twenty ten. So those bodies were discovered after a sex worker named Shannon Gilbert, a young woman, went and bishing back a year before, about a year before, so during her search, during the search with Shannon Gilbert, police ssembled upon these four sets of bodies along the

Desolat Highway. Months after that, about six more bodies were found, not too far away, so a lot of carnage along one strip of highway out in Long Island, and with so many bodies, we thought that this case would be solved. But your one went by, your two went by, and it seemed to be no movement. So, you know, once about the third year went by, Josh and I were doing Killer Legends and we decided, well, you know what, this should be our next project, and we were going

to do this as a documentary future. But after investigating the Gobi case, discovered that unfortunately, crimes such as these involving sex workers are happening all across the country and there seems to be not a lot of answers, very similar to that being the patent in Long Island.

and she didn't know that much about the case. I mean, she knew women had been killed, and you know, we were driving her around, taking her from a hotel to hotel, talking to her about you know, sex work and what she afraid. And what she didn't know is that Memorial Day was basically the start of the hunting season for this killer. It's believed that he found most of his victims during that time.

of affairs. How long had she been a prostitute? What was her background? Just before this? Tell us of the case or the story of Shannon Gilbert to reveal how they discovered the other bodies on Gilgilt Beach.

hiding behind the couch. She's so freaked out. At some point, Brewer reaches for her, you know, to kind of pull her outside of his house, and she freaks out. She runs outside. She apparently trips and falls, gets back up, and then she starts to run through this kind of seaside community.

says no, don't call the police. She runs back down the stairs and kind of runs through this community. Meanwhile, Michael Pack, who's her driver, is searching for and to make a long story short, she basically runs down the street towards the water and it's never seen from again. And it's at this point that kind of the real

mystery begins. The police eventually come a couple hours later, and at that point, Shannon had made a phone call to nine on one on her cell phone, and Shannon didn't really know where she was, so she said she was near Jones Beach, so she is routed to the state police. In fact, Shannon is not really in Jones' Beach anymore. She's in a different area. She's actually just

right across the county line. So the call gets transferred to Jones Beach and then it gets transferred to another law enforcement agency on the Suffolk County side, And basically she's on the phone for like, I think twenty one to twenty three minutes, kind of screaming for help and all these other things, and then her phone goes dead and so she could never tell the police when she

was on the phone where she was. And the only reason the police came was because the neighbors who had called her, and so there's a little bit of a you know, disconnect there between Shannon's nine one one call and then the neighbor's nine one one calls, and in fact that connection is never made. The two law enforcementgencies

never sync up. And what basically happens is the driver goes home, he doesn't know what happens to her, and then Shannon's boyfriend calls the driver when she doesn't come home, and then they try and file a missing persons report. We hear at or was told Basically, when the boyfriend and the john go to file missing person's report in stuff A County, there's some may kind of left, you know,

because sex workers. You know, she's a sex worker. You know, she probably just ran out, That's what they said, and there's a definitely fumbling of the missing person's case. Shannon, as I mentioned before, was from Jersey City, so you know, there's some unknown idea of where the missing person's report should be filed Jersey City, where she's from, or Suffolk County where she disappears from. And Shannon's missing person's report neither law enforcement agency really wants to kind of take

the missing person's report. So there's all these factors that lead up to the fact that no one is kind of looking for Shannon for a couple of days. Now, the crazy thing is, Shannon no one can find her, and it basically takes more than a year for that to happen. So while the police, you know, they spend a couple of days, even weeks looking for her, they

can't find her. Nobody knows what happens. But meanwhile, one of the cadaver dogs and the trainer who had been searching for Shannon basically had been using that same area a couple months later to train his dog, and the dog stumbles upon the bodies of four other escorts sex workers who have been found wrapped in burlap about a mile and a half away from where Shannon disappeared, and that kind of jump starts the whole story.

tight lipped. The family would probably argue that they haven't heard from the police for quite a while, and when you don't hear from police, you know, it creates a void of information, and they'rein rates a lot of speculation. And also, you know, this is this is the family

members who have not a lot of answers. You know, the twenty three minute nine on one call has not been released, and I understand their argument that if the police are saying it is an accident, then why wouldn't they release a twenty three minute nine one one call. There doesn't seem to be a lot of reason that if they do agree that it is an accident, why they wouldn't release that. So the family is simply looking for answers, and they do believe that there was some

kind of foul play with Shannon's death. Now, you know, Josh and I are on the side that you know, there's she probably did expire in that marsh. However, that doesn't mean she didn't meet someone during her twenty three minute journey running up and down the the dark streets of Oak Beach. You know, we don't know if someone gave her something that you know, uh, combined with maybe another drug she took that led her to go into

that marsh. And that marsh is very very cold, you know, long long islands, I mean, you're it's a small stretch of land between a bay and an ocean. The winds are very strong, even in the beginning of May, which which is when she when when she died in that marsh. Josh and I went out there and and I was breething, you know, and I had gloves, I had goloshes on, and you know, she supposedly stripped there and went through it. So it doesn't surprise me that the elements can get

you when when you get into that marsh. So you know, there's I think there's a lot of unanswered questions in in the Shannon Gilbert case. And again, if if they do really believe that, then that it is totally accidental

and she did drowns. Just release release the twenty three minute phone call so we can move on and investigate the rest of these murders, because when we talk about Shannon Gilbert, the attention goes to her, which is understandable, but there's also another you know, nine bodies, five of which are unidentified, which could lead to a lot of answers and the go go investigation.

Peter Brent. So tell us about web sluse and the rise of this crowd solving community, and also what Peter had said initially about Shannon Gilbert and the relation to the Long Island serial killer and what he had and then his thoughts about the Long Island serial killer.

was an explosion of speculation on the Internet. Now what's very interesting is that a lot of this speculation was in a lot of different forms. People were trolling each other, sniping each other, calling each other the killer, the whole nine yards. That's in a very unorganized way. But you know, the Internet, you know, when it comes to true crime. What we've noticed is there's been this real rise in

the internet sleuth thing. And one of the places that's very good about internet sleuthing is a site called web Sluice. And you know, this explosion of kind of looking at theories and clues really started. And then Joe Bane Ramsey case. But you know, it also like took on a life of its own in the list case because there was so much speculation. So because the police weren't saying anything, we went to web slue. We wanted to hear what people were saying. And on web slue we met this

guy Peter Brent. And you know, everybody says there's a lot of kind of crazy crackpots on web slue, and you know, we definitely saw that. But but we could also tell that there were other people who seemed to know what they were talking about. One of them was Peter, and I remember we kind of called him up and he right off the bat, you know, he seemed to

know exactly what he was talking about. And I remember I even gave him some of the case files from Cropsy to see if he knew what he was talking about, and he did. And one of Peter's initial things that he gave us was saying, you know, hey, listen, you know I don't believe Shannon is connected, and he gave some really interesting reasons, and he also kind of said, you know, it's the problem is the suff the county police,

you know, they kind of they botched the case. And so we started to really connect with Peter, and what he was saying was very interesting. A lot of things that I didn't know at the time, like, for example, the behavioral profiling unit that was made famous in the Silence of the Lambs, Like that agency has been gutted. All those profilers have been taken over and are now working on counter terrorism, so kind of no one has

left to really look at serial killers anymore. And so he just opened up this whole fascinating world us, whether it's the amount of serial killers who are really out there, or the fact that you know, he believes and people now say, I had no idea that in New York City alone there are six active serial killers at any one time, and that was just shocking to me.

going after runaways, sorority girls, hitchhikers, you know. But in this trackable society that we live in now, they know, the killers know who to go who to go after, And those are the people who are living on the fringes. Those are the people who are trying to evade law enforcement themselves. Those are the people who are using burner cell phones, who are dealing in cash transactions, who are

posted to pack backpage in criklist. You know, we think that everyone you know can be connected by an IP address or a phone number, or obviously they can track something. But you know, these women are smart and they want to continue doing business the way that they are, and to do that they need to be not trackable. And these serial killers know that. They know that. For one,

just technologically they're not trackable. In addition, these women are living on the fringes and do move around a lot, and do go underground, and in some cases are being controlled by pimps themselves, and so they know that, and they know also that you know, sometimes a lot of

police agencies don't take they're missing persons cases seriously. In addition to if sex worker comes up dead, may not have that at the top of their priority because they're not a blond hair, blue eyes doority girls and they don't have uh a community banging down on their doors to solve a case which is complete lightly tragic. So yeah, that's that's the statistic I did not know, and it is very fast.

So that's kind of very much one signature. And you know, as Peter was telling us, you know, this is very much collection behavior. You know, this guy likes to probably drive along the highway knowing that you know, he's buried these bodies there. You know, a lot of returning to the scene of the crime. Maybe he stops, maybe he doesn't.

But you know, these women, because their signature is so specific because of the graveyard staging, because of how the bodies were wrapped in burlap, they get one to one signature, and they're known as the Gilgo Beach four.

continue to be unidentified. That includes a mother and child, a mother and toddler, an Asian male who is found in women's clothing, another woman on whose body parts were found years before, to actually two women whose body parts were found years before, and did another set of their body parts were found during those months, So you still have five unidentified remains, which is huge in my opinion to be a source of clues to positively solve an investigation. I think that's actually one.

information that could be a huge clue. In addition to that, the mother and toddler who were thrown seven miles away from each other, and which I think that pretty much the killer did know what he was doing to separate those bodies, but the toddler was wrapped in a blanket, you know, another fabric that they have, and it's a child.

six bodies, and it's very interesting. One of those bodies a woman who is known as Fire Island Jane Doe. Now what's interesting about her. Part of her body parts were found along this stretch of road called Ocean Parkway, but her severed legs were actually found on another barrier island just north of Gilgo Beach called Fire Island, and

those legs were discovered in nineteen ninety six. Now that's where you start to bring in these questions if you're a forensics guy, saying, huh, nineteen ninety six and the GB four, these four women were found in two thousand and ten. Wow, that's quite a long time for a single killer to be active. Now there's something else to that you should start to question.

body parts we're talking about. Look at the different signatures that we're talking about. We've got women who are found half their body parts are found here, half their body parts are found forty miles away. You've got another woman whose body part, whose legs are found in nineteen ninety six. It starts to bring up a lot of questions about different signatures and length of time and what is really

going on here. And this basically gets to one of the core questions of this case, which is how many serial killers are we really talking about here? And I remember when we first heard about this case and somebody started whispering that it may not just be one serial killer, but in fact two. I thought that was somebody who was making it up. It tended to me like a movie. But after looking at this case, and it's extremely complicated. If I've confused you, that is what the killers have

obviously intended to happen. And I now do believe in fact that it is two killers, which goes against the former Commissioner Richard Dormer's theory. But some other police, including the current District Attorney, do believe it's two killers. And to me, the fact in this day and age, we can have all these different body parts and we know so much through CSI and forensics, yet for there to be such question among experts is really shocking to me.

different serial killers. One the list killer known as the Long Island serial killer, who's killed the GB four. And then we have this other serial killer known as the Manorville Butcher. And this guy, this Manerville Butcher, he calls him a Torso killer. Now, Peter, you know a lot of what Peter says. Trust me, We go in and we do a lot of background check, like it is Peter really right?

of all time, which is the Whitehall Chapel murderer. Uh And again This goes back to the idea of Torso killers are very competitive, and that may be actually what happened in a Jack the Ripper case. You had Jack the Ripper and then you had the Whitehall Chapel murders.

on the other end of the line. And he tells Amanda, who's very young at this point, I believe she's only about sixteen years old and very close with her sister, told her that you know, he has Melissa and that I don't remember the specifics right now, but over the course of the next few weeks, he continued to call her and torment her with was what he was doing with Melissa at the time, with the last phone call, saying that he had killed his sister, her sister, and

maybe one day he'll go and show her where he's body, where where she's buried. That's the biggest clue right now that I think we know exists that of the killer. I don't think this is a frank phone call at all. I think this was really the killer who killed who called her. Unfortunately, you know, this is back six years ago, technology wasn't as as great as is now. It's it's unknown whether they were able to really trace the call.

If they were when they traced it, you know, it was traced too to midtown near the Long Island Railroad near Penn Station. So there's speculation whether that guy was a commuter who was in Long Island. Did he just go there because he knew that a lot of other people it's a Victorius attraction, would be there. So even if they did trace the call, they couldn't tend point

it to him. But but it's really interesting and it's really tragic and sad that, you know, she she's the only person we know who's actually spoken to him, and you know, it's it's sick and twisted that he continued not only to torment Melissa, but God is rock so oft and tormenting the family as well.

that gentleman's name? He was awesome here. Oh yeah, that's right, who's wrote numerous articles on you know, this idea of the communication that happened after and you know this is this could be very similar to you know, the kind of either the Jimmy Breslin, son of Sam communications, although that's actually in reality different, but or the zodiac, which

this is probably more of. But you know, it's a way for these killers to continue to kind of relive the fantasy basically that same killing by kind of tormenting the sister. I mean, he said, I hear your half breathed, you know, do you know that your sister did you know? Indicating the fact that you know, some judgment on the fact that she was a sex worker. So it's really tragic what happened, but we do believe in the fact that is the biggest mistake that the killer has made to date.

to Peter as well. You discussed with Peter as well the significance of this again this communication, and also he mentions at the end that he said, listen, I've killed your sister. I've finally killed your sister. I'm going to watch your body rot and maybe someday I'll come and get you to go, come and see. And so it's very powerful when you have the father explaining that, and then you have the sister just in silhouette explaining her story.

Very very powerful. But what does Peter believe about that communication?

said are you friends with Marie? Marie was Marine's street name, her cargo name, and she said, you know she's fine, she's in a whorehouse and queen so you you brought up the word war you know, if if that was him, which Sarah Carnes is is convinced it was him, he's using.

Wikipedia page. And she finds in the history somebody had put a proper name, a gentleman's name, and we kind of pull up the gentleman's name and we see that he is currently he's been charged. Theoretically, he's a corrections officer and he's been charged with harassing some women in the Suffolk County prison. And we you know, that's interesting for sure, but of course it could be trolled. I mean,

there's so much trolling. But the most interesting thing was the person who posted the information seems to have posted from inside the Suffolk County Police Department, because that's where the IP address was from. And so that raises a whole bunch of questions. Is it somebody who believes that this guy did it and somehow, you know, they don't

have the evidence. Is it an example of trolling? I mean, just the idea that somebody from inside the Suffa County Police Department or somebody using that IP address posts a name to Wikipedia, suddenly calls into a whole bunch of questions. Is it the guy or you know, what kind of control is happening at Suffer County Police Department? Is that

just you know, trolling from inside? I mean, so we ended up looking at that guy and that was very interesting kind of I think we did an interesting job of you know, kind of sourcing whether he was involved or not. But I think this is the idea this is it's kind of like a perfect example of how you can use the Internet in a proper way to kind of theoretically dig up clues.

anybody that could speak to you. Every telephone call is recorded, so it just seems be like little bits, little piece by piece, very much like a police investigation. Your investigation is going where the police don't either have the time, focus or as you point out in the series, how unconnected police forces are. And while we're talking about that non connectedness, you do talk about ViCAP and it's failing.

So tell us about what you did find out about ViCAP, what we think we believe about ViCAP, and what is the reality.

four to seven, and that's really not the case. I really thought that, you know, there's a missing person's database, and unidentified remains database, a homicide database, and they were all interconnected and cross reference and if someone goes missing on Kansas and they pop up in Illinois, you know, I'm simplifying it, that a yellow light would would go off and you know, the case would be solved. That's absolutely not the case. You know, we live in a very very fractured.

a data journalist, who he's a citizen. He has compiled the largest comicide database in the country by going through freedom and Information Acts and in some cases doing the native Illinois for our homicide data. So we have a long way to go to the place where I think a lot of people think we exist, which is like this. It kind of goes into that like CSI effect that with our what we think is so far futuristic technology that we should be able to stall all times, that's

really just not the case. And I'm hoping that people will watch the show and realize it, realize that it's yes, these cases are really horrific and tragic, and it's really sad for the families and the victims, and that these cases are unsolved. But in addition to that that, there are reasons why these cases remain unsolved, and that is because of this kind of linkage blindness, because of these connections that cannot be made in addition to so many

other societal factors. You know, we're creating a virtual Peatrie dish for these killers to get away with murder.

you see in our show. You know, we had one of the former heads of VICAPS tell us like they are missing connections, you know, thousands of missing persons, unidentified bodies. You know, if these systems were better, you know, if all this information was mandated and sent in, then we can do a much better job of connecting these crimes. And look, it can happen the vie in Canada, they

have the ViCAP system as well. It's slightly different, but basically it's based on our system, and all the law enforcement agencies in Canada have to send their murder data in in America, we're dealing with seventeen to twenty thousand

different law enforcement agencies. There's a lot of jurisdictional issues, and you know, there's there's the perception that you know, it's a freedom you know, it's an individual freedom's issue, but we're talking about murder here, and so I don't I don't think we should be dealing with, you know, personal liberty issues when we're talking about solving murders. And

so it was just shocking to me. Again, not one single law enforcement agency in the United States it's betterly mandated to share its murder data with the FBI's BYICAP system. It's just crazy to me. And all the time and effort and TV shows that just deal with solving cases and murders all day long, yet we don't even do that in real life. How did the world not know that?

So let's talk about how this investigation morphed into a much bigger investigation and included other cities like Daytona Beach and Atlantic City, and talk more a little bit about which I thought was one of the most shocking things, is the statistics surrounding long haul truckers and that type of long haul serial murder.

probably not more. However, there are more serial killers obviously in Long Island, but I think with regards to the Gilgo Beach case, I think we're talking about a max two. May disagree.

eerie familiarities. I would not say the same perpetrator is responsible, but what it led to was really discovering and that's the point when I when I found out from Quina Quinnette, who has done tons of research kind of on the progression of hero homicides involving sex workers that they have

increased by seventy percent since the Sevendides. So this whole kind of world open up to us that I think we did not know necessarily existed, that sherial killers were preying upon sex workers in record numbers all across America. You know, we started this series out looking at the Long Island caves and looking at cereal murder in general, thinking that, you know, we'd investigate different serial murder of

not just sex workers, but of different populations. And it just kept coming up that these serial murder cases almost always involve not only people who live on the fringes, but but sex workers and people who have substance abuse issues. So I think that once we investigated ac and we looked down that dark alleyway, that dark road, and with our communication with Websfluth who told us, you know what, there's this case in Daytona which is quite similar. You know,

another four sex workers who were killed. The beach community, the tourist town near water kind of just kept going where this story let us and you bring up long haul truckers. That is a terrifying subset of killers. You know, not only do serial murderers know all the different contributing factors to having them being able to get away with murder, but long haul truckers also understand that there is territorialism

when it comes to crime. They understand that they can pick up a woman in one state killer and jumper number body in another state, and there's going to be jurisdictional issues. There's going to be a lack of connection.

It's it's one of the most taboo subjects and it's one of the most interesting to kind of figure out why does somebody do what they do, you know, and that whole thing, you know, profiling, et cetera. And you know, I like it too, But sometimes we create connections to alleviate our fear. You know, it's a natural tendency to

create connections. It helps us survive. And unfortunately, when we kind of create these connections everybody had the last name, or everybody was killed on the same date, or all these other issues, we tend to kind of miss the big picture and the connections here is not that it's one super duper serial killer going through all these different

you know, beach side communities and killing these women. The connection is that we've created a culture that allows these women to be killed, and it allows these killers to believe that they can get away with it. And that is really the true message of what we're talking about. You know, as you said, you know, serial killing against sex workers has gone up dramatically, but there's a whole

bunch of other issues at hand. The fact is, Rachel said, there's databases that aren't speaking to each other, and there's long all killers that know that, with so many different law enforcement agencies that believe it or not, that same old kind of Hollywood trope of territorialism that's real, you know, they know that the best way to get away with murder is to dump a body over state lines. And you would think, well, that might have been that probably

worked in the seventies, but I'm still true today. And that's what's so shocked.

feel safer. And then you point out again the phenomena that I hadn't really thought about very much at all, the very very horrifying subset, as you say, of serial murder with the long haul truckers. And to add to the horror in the series, you interview a serial killer, John Robert Williams. So just tell us a little bit. Don't give it away, but I mean, just tell us on how you got this interview and what you wanted to get information that you wanted to get from John Robert Williams.

is quite scary when I think about it. But so he was one of the few who wrote back and said, yes, I committed these murders. I actually killed up to thirty women. Uh he maybe in Belisium, not quite sure.

and they used it to their advent. Because we were trying to you know, we want law enforcement to work together. We want everybody to work together. We want everybody to kind of, you know, create the best create the best databases possible. So if we can speak to a long all serial killer who kind of could point out, who could say point blank, yes I knew you know that these guys don't speak to each other, maybe it would

help convince everybody to close that loop. And the good news is is we are seeing that loop being closed a little bit. We now know that law enforcement agencies are making better attempts to put that territorialism aside. But we need to be even better. We need to really be working together as much as possible, and so that was our goal.

that you interview a motorcycle club member. And if prostitutes already didn't have enough of a tough time in America. Then you talk about the border, the border states where it looks like what you found is prostitutes that are used as drug and money running and then disposed like trash in the desert. So that expansion includes you talk about Albuquerque. Tell us a little bit about this expansion into even more horrifying murder and that reality that goes along with it.

so much speculation. There's all these like grumblings of people knowing these women missing before they went missing. And these are women unlike the ones in unlike the women in Long Island. They were working this street. They have a face to face with vice props on a daily basis. People knew them, and the drugs were hard there. I mean, that's that's one of the places we were like hanging out at three o'clock in the morning and very sketchy neighborhoods.

So speculation with that case is very, very interesting. I think it could definitely be some kind of drug cartel situation there. But again, that is one of the one of the law enforcement agencies that was the toughest for us. They would not talk to us. They are under investigation by the Department of Justice, and they and they remained to be and to this day, they have not really corresponded with us at all. It's going to be interesting with that well, not not much. It is going to

be interesting with that case. There is some new information coming out that we will round back to as these are as these episodes air, So there might be some traction there with that case that I'd be interested to see how that evolves.

that's what's happening in chili Coopy, Ohio. And and as the media, you know, we have again a tendency to like, oh, there must be some reason for this. You know, Discovery ID went to Chilicopy, Ohio thinking it was a serial killer, and then they found out it was you know, drugs. You know, but you know, that doesn't fit with the narrative that we want to create here. So you know, it's it's sad and and that's also what happened with you know, in Albuquerque here, uh you know, I did.

There's a lot of drugs going on, and I think you know, that's one of the reasons you know, that's here. But Rach brought up a very interesting thing and and and kind of stepping back and looking at it. Out of we worked with some very great law enforcement officials, and the ones who were transparent were great. Mike Chitwood, who at the time was the police chief of Daytona. The guy was extremely transparent and you know, you know, dayton I think people felt really safe in Daytona despite

what was going on. And you know, he was very open and he was great. But a lot of the other law enforcement agencies that we looked at. Let let me just say, out of the five cities we looked at, the three of those cities, law their law enforcement agencies were under investigation by the Department of Justice for civil rights violations. So that should be a clue that, you know, unsolved serial killer cases law enforcement agencies that are under

investigation by the Department of Justice. What we're looking at, and what Rachel said before, is it's not just a killer who commits these murders. Yes, that's the individual, but the killer has to believe that he can get away with it, you know. And I think that that's the problem that we're looking at here. It's just too easy

for these guys to get away with it. Whether they're long haul serial killers, whether they're killing African American women in Cleveland, or whether they're killing you know, Caucasian sex workers on the internet in Long Island. We just make it too easy for these guys to get away with it.

very effective. So tell us what really what you would envision the role of web and documentary filmmakers like yourself and just interested citizens could in I mean not ideally, but in practicality, what can they really do?

cases in the past decade. That's five out of ten victims. That's so many possible clues here, and so one of the places where we found web sloosters. Really great is doing the little work, the little details that law enforcement can't do, finding those unidentified looking through you know, court records, public records, anything that can alleviate the burden of law enforcement.

And there's an example in New Mexico. A law enforcement agency had an unidentified victim and they had a partly disintegrated shirt, right, and they gave that shirt to web slue and it was a very like specific ask. They said, could you guys help us identify what this picture is that we found on a body. Within twenty four hours, the websuits had the picture and where you can buy it and all this other great information. Okay, so that's

how you use these crowd fluting sites. You give them one specific task and you put the power of the people in that one little task. So, like Rachel was saying earlier, what we want to do is encourage law enforcement to say, Okay, everybody, today or this week or this month, we all we want to find out who this unidentified victim is in Long Island, Asian male. Here's everything we know about him, please help us find him.

We're going to have one specific officer who is there going to be asking all these you know there to answer all your questions at least on the internet, like that is how you use web solues to solve these crimes? Or again that tip you know what is this picture of? Or you know you use them for the little details and not you know, we'd never use it and actually solve a crime quote unquote Does that make sense?

to make it completely mandatory. And he along with his organization, he's now a private suitan called the Cold Case Foundation is working at doing that. You know, it's hard to make such huge changes, especially on a federal level, So they are working on a state by state program. I think it's called the State Compact Agreement. It's kind of the same idea of driver's license. You know, each state has a different driver's license, but supposedly all the databases

are linked up. It's kind of that same idea. Yeah, that from because we're a state driven nation that go from one state to another. Each date agrees to sign on and it will slowly become federally mandated. We'll see if that happens, but hopefully at least people will understand the total fragmentation of these databases and which I definitely did not know, and we'll hopefully put some pressure on those in charge and those harmmakers that who can make those decisions.

reason why that day can't be today. And you know, it's a shame that, you know, we don't have the same you know, tech people working in the public sector that we do in the private sector. And you know, it's a shame that unfortunately a lot of you know, the financing that could go towards these computer systems. I mean, I get it, like, if you had an opportunity, you know, would you want to you know, get an armored personnel carricer or would you want to get you know, a

better computer system. I you know, I kind of understand that, you know, we all why some people might say it or a personnel carrier. But at the end of the day, if you really want to solve a lot of those crimes, those cold cases, you know, you need the computer system. You know that that's the reality of it.

a pimp. You know what we're finding what we saw on Long Island especially, this was middle class women, you know, who needed to pay their rent, who had children to feed, and you know, these there's this idea that because it's the Internet, you're posting on back page or what have you, that it's somehow safer. But speaking to the professionals out there, we realized and found out that it's much more anonymous, that the Internet actually creates a new level of anonymity

that nobody really understands. And you know, what we're also finding is that you know, nowadays the woman who is posting is you know, it could be your sister, your mother, you know it again, the world's oldest profession is changing as we know it, and anybody could become that victim.

will be on quite frequently. Actually was on it. You have conversations today, I'm posted to web slues to continue that conversation. You know, Josh frequently calls this show America's most wanted two point zero, So we want to drive that conversation to webs clues and hopefully be able to source some additional clues and if nothing else, continue to have these conversations happen.