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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author.
Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. In nineteen sixty eight, young girls went missing in California and New York. Massive searches started and soon bodies began to turn up. This is a story of Rodney Alcala, the charming, good looking photographer that was in New York University studying under Roman Polanski and even once had won on the popular TV game show Dating Game, but now wanted for rape, torture and murder
of several young girls. He would make the girl suffer until they passed out, then rape them, and when they came to, he would beat them again before killing them.
Alan R.
Warren, best selling true crime author and co host of House of Mystery, takes you through each step of the story in shocking detail, including details from the trials and the appeals that have been going on for over twenty years. While Alkala sits on Death Row, the book to a feature in the seating is The Killing Game, The True story of Rodney Alcala the game show Serial Killer, with my special guest Alan R. Warren, journalist and author and
podcaster Alan o'warren. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing in this interview.
Ah it's my pleasure. It's always good to be here and good to talk to you again.
Thank you very much for this interview. Gratulations on the Killing Game, a very very interesting, fascinating killer and an amazing, very very interesting case. Let's get right to a little bit about Rodney Alcola Alcala and tell us a little bit about his life. People know about him being born in the US and having go to Mexico. So tell us a little bit about how his early life and then what was characterized about his family life and what people knew about his early life.
Well, it seems like he had a pretty normal upbringing, the middle class sort of upbringing, and he was in San Antonio, Texas, and he was one of four children, I believe, and they were from Mexico and had a pretty good life. He was a good student, no problems. In nineteen fifty one, his grandmother, who lived with him, became kind of sick. She became ill and it wasn't
going to be a good outcome. So they decided that they would move back to Mexico so that she could be with her family and live out her days there. So the family up and went and moved back to Mexico and lived there for a while. The strange thing that happened there was after about a year, his father left and moved back to the States, to California, and left the family behind, you know, the kids and the
mother and grandmother. And it wasn't until the grandmother died before the mother and kids moved back to the States as well. But when they did move back, they did not move back with the father, right.
You say that. In nineteen sixty talk about a normal, fairly normal upbringing, regardless of the split. Back in Los Angeles, He's graduated top of his class and he was very popular, especially with the ladies, and always had a lot of dates. In nineteen sixty one, he joined the army and he worked as a clerk, and his brother was an inspiration
was he was at at West Point. But one year in, you say that something happened that really seemed to affect him, especially when they looked at this incident later on what happened while he was in the army and then what did he do as a result.
Well, when he was working there, he was working as a clerk. Wanted to be a paratrooper. About a year in his father died, and his father died suddenly. It was a shock, and so he had to come back for the funeral. So he went back for the service. He attended the service, and the whole family did, including the new wife, and everything seemed to be fine, like there were you know, there was the death. Of course it was sad, but everyone got along and there wasn't
an issue. After the service, he went back to North Carolina and returned to his job. And it was a little bit later, it was really only about three four months. His mother was at home. She was cooking dinner for one night, and all of a sudden showed up at the door and she was like, well, what are you doing here here in the army in North Carolina, And he said, no, I've had it. I left, and she goes, well, did you get permission, liked, how did you leave? And he said, no, I just I just left. So she
got really upset. She knew that would be considered a wall and they would be wanting him right, you can't just do that, so she talked him into turning himself in. So it was a few days later he turned himself in, and so then they decided that they would give him an analysis and just and check him out in the hospital and see how he was or see what was going on. His last person that was in charge of him said that he wasn't really doing his job since
he came back from the funeral. He was distant, he wasn't paying attention, He just wasn't doing He used to be so efficient and such a good worker, and now all of a sudden he was just kind of just being there but not doing any of his job. So they actually determined that he had a type of a nervous breakdown, and back then they diagnosed him with anti social personality disorder and they give him a discharge on
medical grounds. So that's kind of was the first big change, or you might say bump in the road.
M you talk about too. This is five years later, and there's no incidents, but you say the first and we're talking about a doozy of an incident here. This is September twenty fifth, nineteen sixty eight, and the case of Tally Shapiro. And with this incredible story begins to unfold about a motorist that spots a man with a young girl. And this man's name is Donald Haynes. What does he see and why does he become suspicious and what does he do as a result.
That's just well, you know that, yeah, and that was quite unique because you know, in nineteen sixty eight people were much more trusting, you know. But he noticed in what it was in West Hollywood, and the girl was walking down the boulevard and a man in a car pulled up and was talking to her and following her for her ways, and then eventually she got into the car and then they drove away, and they drove to his apartment. And he thought that was a weird He
thought it was a really weird set up. So something told him to follow them, so he did. He followed them, and he saw them going to the endto the apartment, and so he got a little bit nervous and he went to a payphone, which we had them back then, and he actually picked it up and called the cops and said, this is really suspicious. I don't feel right about this. So the cops decided to follow up, and they came out to Rodney's apartment, and that was kind
of the first incident that really happened. That was kind of weird, you know. So the cops came up and knocked on the door and knocked on the door, and eventually he answered just through the door, saying what who is it? What do you want? And and the cop said, well,
we're doing a check up. You know, would have heard something and we're doing a safety check here, and so eventually he opened the door and that's when it all sort of They saw right away, they saw the girl laying on between the kitchen and the front room, right in the middle part, laying on the floor, and she was all covered in blood, and she wasn't moving. She
wasn't there was no no motion coming from her. So they initially pushed him in the front door and started talking, and all of a sudden, the girl coughed and choked kind of, she started coughing. So the two car ran right away to her and started attending to her and to her she was still alive, so he grabbed a towel and you know, it was just all taking care of her. But at the same time what had happened was then Rodney ran out the back and disappeared.
You say too that it was miraculous. And they took young Tally to the hospital and she stayed in thea coma for quite a while. So it was touch and go. And if he would have made the wrong decision to say, chase after Rodney Alcala, then she would have died. So that's was the prognosis. Now from this, what do police do in terms of they find the ID for Rodney Alcola, So what do they do as a result, and what does Rodney do as a result.
Well, you know, so they knew they were dealing, they found the ID, they knew who the person was, so they started a search of course, and chatting with the parents, the neighbors, and at the time there were all sorts of rumors that he had probably ran back to Mexico, and somebody even said he probably went to Canada, which was kind of our Europe, which was kind of not really really the thing. I think the biggest worry was that he would go back to you know, Mexico where
he could kind of hide out any new people. So they led to the FBI, and the FBI started doing a search as well, and he ended up on the FBI Most Wanted list in nineteen sixty nine, and he was all missing for a couple of years before anybody found him. Now, just so you know what he had done is he went to New Hampshire under a different name, John Berger, and he got a job at an all girls summer camp. Yeah, so you got this child a rapist because Kelly was eight, So you got this rapist.
He's the at the all girls summer camp teaching now being at he was a counselor, so he was knighting them like unbelievable. And that school was dealing with from ages eight to fifteen, you know, and he got away with that for two years he was there. And how he got caught with Yeah, oh sorry, I was just going to say. Two girls that were at the camp walked to the post office just to mail a letter.
And in the post office back then, they used to have the most wanted fixtures up and they saw him when they were waiting and they said, that just looks like counselor John Berger. So they told the dean, and the dean came and looked, and then he called the FBI, and the FBI came out to question mister Alcala, and of course they found out it was so they extra got him back to California.
You also say that right away there presents a problem because they were looking for Rodney Alcola with Tally, and with that her parents had moved her. They were so traumatized, and of course she was as well that they moved her to Mexico, and there was indication to the prosecutor that they wouldn't be coming back for that prosecution. So in nineteen seventy one, when they got this incredible break with the two girls recognizing them off that post office,
FBI wanted list. It created a problem right away, didn't it for that process?
Yeah, you know, because they knew right away they had no witnesses, They didn't have the victim, they had no witnesses to testify, so just they had nothing. We all knew he did it. He knew he did it, everybody did. It was just one of those situations. Well, what in court we can't do anything here. We have very little to go on. We have the witness that saw him taking her in there, we saw that, we have the cops witnessing that she was raped and attacked in the hospital.
So but it was all that's all secondary, it's not they had no primary anything, anybody there that could say, you know, anything. So eventually all they did was they give him and he settled for a something like giving giving to minors, you know, giving a bad influence. I think it was that had a special name for it. And so he got I think three years, and he spent one year in jail, then went out in probation contributing to miners.
I got it correct, you hear. What he did get was one year to life with an indeterminate sentence. But he was paroled amazingly, as you write, thirty four months he was paroled out of that one year to life sentence,
and you write that that's all. The detectives involved were again distraught that given the circumstances of Tally her attack, her rape, her kidnapping, and that she almost died, that he would get the one year to life, but also that the parole board would ignore that and give him parole in less than the three years.
Yeah, the whole thing was pretty pretty soft. He really got nothing for it. He got a slap on the wrist.
Yeah, certainly now you write that. Once he's free, he's again living with his mom. Who you know, he's living with his mother. He gets a job on the very first day as a photographer, you know, for a first day out of prison.
Here.
So and then you talk about October thirteenth, Huntington Beach and another incident where he comes into contact with police Julie Johnson and again, amazingly a testament to how well and charming and respectable, incredible this guy is. Tell us a little bit about this, just this incident with Julie Johnson as thirteen years old and this marijuana and the police officer.
Yeah, you know that was a real strange one. He seemed to Yeah, he got he was real charming because to get a job first day out of prison, you know what I mean? He was just had this way about him. People liked him and they didn't even check on the references. But he was at a shopping mall, hunting and Beach, and that's when he pulled up on Julie Johnson and started talking to her, basically enticed her
into going for a ride with him. You know, that talked about school, and then he started saying, well, you know, I have some great things at home I could show you. I have posters and I had some you know, really cool things, and he takes pictures and he does all this stuff. So, you know, she got in. They had a conversation and he told her too. It's one thing that's kind of unique. He came up with the name John Ronald, So he had a totally different name again
at this part, which I'm not exactly sure. So he that to me shows that he was sort of planning this right away. He already had a name. He sort of had an idea, and so, you know, so he thinks her to the apartment and they're talking. He takes some of her pictures, and then she sort of got a little bit frightened with him, and and so but he basically later we found out it was kind of
a mix up. Later we found out that he was in there and he told her to shut up, and he got really forceful with her, and that's sort of that how that happened. They went up to the to a beach a bluff, the bluffs they call it. It's kind of a high up outside of the main part of Huntington Beach. And and they he took out a joint and smoked some marijuana, and apparently she did too, and he was taking pictures and he was kind of and he started to get sexual with her and French
guesser and assault her and all that. But who caught them actually at that time was a park ranger who was down on the beach saw them up there, and I guess there was a lot of kids the issues, you know, going on up there. So the park ranger decided he would go up there and check out and see what they were doing. And he could smell pot as he got up there too, and so he so he went right up to them and and surprised them.
And the worst part about this is Julie was actually saying right from the beginning that he was trying to to attack her and rape her and do all this stuff. And al Keala turned around and said that no, that she was she was being friendly and she offered the pot, and there the ranger cuffed al Kala and took them both back to the to the office their their main station.
But eventually they believed him more than her. And I think that was, as some of the park rangers said, was because what was going on up there a lot was a lot of cross institution. There's a lot of young girls up there, and they were offering to do things with older guys for money and different things, bought stuff like that. So that was kind of a that was a bizarre thing that happened, even though they were caught up there, Like, I don't know if that would happen today.
Yeah, yes, you write that it was seen as a parole violation nonetheless, and he was returned for another two and a half years to prison. In nineteen seventy seven, he was paroled again immediately got a job as a typesetter at the La Times. And at this time, he write, he was taking photos at weddings and he was a
sex offender. Nobody he was a registered sex offender. Nobody ever checked exactly and this one and you write too that he was trusted enough from his parole officer at that time to take a trip to New York July thirteenth, seventy seven. July seventy seven, and there was a woman named Ellen Jane Hover, twenty three years old, that went missing during that trip. And we'll talk about that as time goes on. And in Ellen Jane Hoover, which was
interesting too, is that police found a date book. And in that date book what did they find in terms of incriminating evidence against Rodney Alkala? What was written in that date book that gave them pause for concern?
Well, one thing, one thing to also notice about Ellen Hover was she was the goddaughter of Dean Martin and she was also her father owned at Cyril's nightclub in Hollywood, and there ended up being one hundred thousand dollars rewards, So she was closely tied to to everyone. And and and I also want to go back. You know when you say la times as a typesetter, do you realize that how quick he was able to get jobs with
these these places and not have any references or checks bade? Yeah, you know, like I think that's that's that's a really pivotal thing because he got away with so many things
because of his personality. So yeah, And and in the in the book, I believe the biggest thing was that she had set up a date with a photographer named John Burder, and and it was listed I think it was for July fifteenth, and so, so she had an appointment with John Burder, the photographer, who was Rodney L. Kellis, you know, one of his names that he used when
he was a New Hampshires. So that kind of gave a way right away who they were going to go after or who who likely had the interaction with her.
You talk about too that eleven months after this, after who she disappears, her bodies has found and Ellen's bodies found and at the same time police are getting a call from a woman that says, look at I was posing for a photos from a guy named Rodney Alcala in the same spot you found this woman.
Yeah, yeah, you know. And it's kind of one of those things that later they found out, do you know that they you know, his parole officer let him go to New York the first time within a month of getting out on a parole. So looking back at it, we realized he was taking several trips to New York. And when he went to New York, he didn't attack the same types of girl that he attacked in California. California, they were all eight thirteen, fifteen young girls. These ones
in New York were twenty three thirty five. They were all much older, and there might be a reason for that in his mind, but we can't say for sure.
Now we have other victims, Jill Barcom eighteen years old, and again interestingly, the lead detective on that is Philip Van Natter of OJ Simpson's fame. So just very interesting all the names, famous names dropped into this story. Then you talk about a Georgia Wexted she was, and tell us and tell our audience what kind of characterized what was the signature the thing that he didn't have to do that he did do with these victims. What was the thing that police found and were horror even more
than typically with the crime scenes. What was his signature?
Well, it seemed for some reason as it got on, he was he would torture them, So you know, he's not only kidnapped someone and forcibly rape them. He beats them and portures them and chokes them until they pass out, and then they come too, and he does it again. And he would do this as many times as it
took until they died. So that's why I included the medical reports at the ends of each girls, because I wanted people to realize that in the medical reports they actually mentioned how she was still alive while all this went on. And he would burn them, he would cut them, he would beat them, he would do all of these things while they were because he wanted them to feel the pain. And this would go on and on. Then then once they did die, he started getting really rather brazen.
He started putting the bodies in positions and in places that would get a lot of attention, like it crossed from Marlon Brando's house and that little bush, and you know, he would place the body in a position so that usually the private parts would be facing whoever would find them, and quite often he would have their hands and fingers pointing at their private parts, so that that would be the first thing you would find, the first thing you would see. You could open your door, then that's what
you would see. So he had a display in mind, he had something he wanted to show people, and it got more and more aggressive, and more and more, how you put it, he just got more elaborate and detailed on how he wanted to make them suffer and to let make sure that everybody saw it.
Now you talk about with the break that comes in this case here, uh, and and again it's a very complicated case because there is a sighting by somebody that's reluctant to come forward, this forestry worker, Dana Krappa, But tell us about this what she again to just kind of fast forward and sort of summarize, But what what she does do? What does she see one night with the dats and a young girl? What does what does she see? And unfortunately what does she do in reaction?
Yeah, this was this was a little bit later, I think it was around seventy nine by then. Yeah, this Dana Crappa was a you know, a you know, one of the guards, you know, what do you call them? Fire? Fire agents, forestry agents. And she was on her way up up to work to the station, and on the gravel road that you take to get up there, she noticed the same type of vehicle as she owned, parked
on the side of the road. And she noticed it because the road was only so wide, so you'd have to slow down to go around the car because there wasn't much room. And as she slowed down to go around, she noticed Rodney Alkella. She didn't know who he was, but she noticed the guy and with a young girl, you know, maybe a ten or twelve year old girl. In her eyes, it was a young girl, and they
were standing on the side of the vehicle. And as she drove by, she looked in her rear view marriage and she noticed that Alkella the man was staring at her, and she said, it give her the creeps, give her a shiver down her spine. So that's that was the first encounter, and she went to the forest sage station and went about her job and her life and didn't
say a word. And then I believe it was two days later or she was doing the same trip again, and this time she'd seen the same vehicle, but only Rodney, and this time she saw mud and dirt all over him and what looked like could be blood, but you know, even that she couldn't be sure about. So she saw him the second time that way, and again went on about her work in life, and again didn't report it.
So then later we find out that she privately went back to the area and to check out the trail kind of what they were they were going on off the side of the road, and it's there that she said she saw some remains scared her, She got back into her truck and went back to work again, said nothing.
And then she was out there another time with another forestry ranger doing some work, and this forest ranger actually took some old bone and threw it at her and freaked her out, and she screamed, and the other ranger said he thought it was just a dead animal and it was a joke. And then she went again like this is it's kind of crazy when you're when you
asked me why, I have no idea. She went several times and confirmed there was remains or body parts there, and she saw them there and saw him there alone, and she did nothing.
Now, this story can't get any more interesting and frustrating and irritating for those that might be listening. On June twenty sixth, detective Art draws, and this is the guy that he got a call from Donald Haynes. And if we remember Donald Haynes, he's the guy that had the good instinct to be able to follow Alcala and then have that police officer Camacho bang on the door and order him to open that door, likely saving that well,
most likely saving that young girl's life, Tory's life. Now what happens here is that this Donald Haynes, he was looking at the composite sketch that was created and he thought it looked like Alkala. Now, so he calls detective Art Draws, and so draws looks at some mugshots and it's a really very dramatic scene in this book. What exactly does this detective draws? What happens to him after he looks at this smugshot and has a conversation with Donald Haynes. What incredibly happens?
You know? If that is that crazy? You know? So he's long day, tired, it gets home and just talks talking to Donald Haynes, and he's looking at the mugshots, and so he flips on his TV and what comes on is in the background is the dating game and who's on it but an al Calla. I mean, I don't know, is that just a coincidence? You know, I can't I can't even say, you know, he here's the name al Calla, you know, looks up at the TV and there he is. You know, you couldn't ask for more.
So that drove him. Of course. The next day he went right to Chuck Barris's studio, which is the was the maker of the of the Dating Game and quite a few shows back then, and he got a copy of the episode from them, and it actually had been a rebeat. He was live in September seventy eight and this was in seventy nine, so he got a repeat of the show. So you couldn't ask for a better, better better accidents.
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Yeah, now that incredible against the odds. Coincidence, as you say, that gets him to go look and look at the performance and you provide the dialogue in the book as well from the dating game conversation that he has and he wins a date and is very odd behavior. And you have one of the actors that also talks about meeting him and finding him very unnerving. We'll say on July fifth, nineteen seventy nine, Robin Someumso's bodies found. This is a character that will play a more important role
and in a very heartbreaking role in this book. Her mother, mary Anne. It's been twelve days since Robin has been has disappeared, they find her. You have another dramatic conversation in here with Mary Anne wanting to see her daughter, wanting to take a look. Why is that not permitted?
Well, you know you have to realize that, you know, the advance to Kay of the cop and the uh, the way she had been sexually assaulted and left. This is you know, I don't like to get too graphic, but you know, because it's so bad, there's you can't allow. I mean, how do you how do you let someone see something like that of your of your little girl, right especially in such such a bad place. And you know, so it's kind of one of those things where there's
there's nothing you can do about that. I mean, I I I, you know, I don't. I don't get into the the you know, like the the the jaw and being broken the way that the eye is and the rib cage. She was so tore up, right, you can't, you know, and and the plus she was out there for Mamma fied and with animals, and I just there's just there's just no way you can you can do that, right, mm hmmm mm hmm.
Now what precipitates? Finally you talk about that the FBI gets a call, l A. P d Gets a call from the FBI about Rodney alcohola. What is that conversation and tell us how it comes to be that the police finally catch up with him.
Well, I think the biggest thing, the biggest key was when they were investigating and they were talking to them, and when they go to girlfriends and they were doing all of that stuff. But what what what? What was kind of a key thing was one of the detectives saw a storage locker receipt from Seattle in his house in l Palace. Now, of course their search weren't wouldn't allow them to take that. The type of search warrant they had. They were not allowed to pick take items
like that. So what he did was he wrote down the phone number of the Storagelocker and then what he did then was he called them later find out if he did have a storagelocker, which they did so the next day after that they drove from Ala up to California and then they went through the storagelocker. They got a search warrant and in that storagelocker is when they found all the pictures he had taken from girls and boys.
Now this is interesting, yeah, because there were there were thousands of pictures and it wasn't just girls so and most of them were in unclosed they were not dressed, and they were in some sort of provocative position. So that was kind of a giveaway as well.
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is just the beginning of the story. Once they have arrested Rodney Alcala and charged them for the murder of Robin Samso. Tell us about this trial before we talk about the problems with that trial that resulted in an appeal.
Well, the trials started out for Robin SAMSO's and I believe it was August fourteenth, was the area. A trial was straightforward. He had a signed a defense attorney, and you know, they did the preliminity erics. They had a lot of the evidence. It was creating a lot of interest in the community and people and the media, and
the prelimitary hearing started in September of seventy nine. It has to be noted about Dana Crapper because that was the forestry worker and she had so many different versions she told by then, but they were still going to go ahead and use her for the prosecution. And that's kind of where we lead into a problem down the road.
Now we've seen this in other cases, and especially the two murder audience knows this that there seems to be problems presented that the district attorney prosecutor didn't anticipate in that bringing in prior crimes. Introducing those prior crimes can be seen as prejudicial to the case at hand. But this was introduced because of those prior crimes, at least, as the prosecutor thought that they had so many similarities that they were allowable because of that similarity to be
introduced as prior crimes. Despite this trial, and again I hate to fast forward through this, but this trial with again Dana Crappa telling so many different variations of the story and being such a reluctant witness that also that these prior crimes were deemed in an appeal necessitating another trial, isn't that correct?
Yeah, it was continuous in a sense, as ended up being three trials in all, and this was long process, right going through each step. And and they even said that Dana Crapper was in one of the appeals that they won, had been hypnotized by the police and the prosecution and actually won that appeal, which I'm still shocked
over that. But this is just how the system works, and I don't think it's right, and it puts people through the whole process so many times, like the family, the victims that survived, the people related to it have to relive this over and over and over year after year after year, and go through the same testimonies and the same you know. The thing is, the bottom line is we know what he did and that he did do these crimes. It's just about getting them convicted and
put away. But it's become such a complicated, over complicated process that you're not really serving justice for not only the victim, but the victims' families who are still alive, which has got to be the most painful of everything, because how can you do that? I mean, justice is supposed to be about, you know, justice, reward, making people feel better and the person being caught and punished and taken off the streets in this case, and the family
can kind of grieve and move on with life. But when something like this goes on for you know, upwards of twenty years, everyone's still back in their original time and when the crime happened and when the girl was murdered and or raped, so you know, they've all lost all of that time in their life. It's the way I look at it, because it hasn't ended. In fact, it still hasn't end.
It you talk about this second trial, which you say was almost identical to the first, except they didn't include the prior record and they still got the death penalty. And this is nineteen eighty six, So talking about crimes from the seventies, then it was the eighties that death
penalty was overturned. Now this is nineteen eighty six. And then as a result of this automatic appeal because you have the death penalty now resulting in again another appeal based on, as you say, Dana Krappa's problematic, problematic testimony because there was so many differences in what she did, and also that they try to imply is that through hypnosis that there was a lot of suggestions to lead her around to her eventual story that you reluctantly testified at court. Isn't it right?
Yeah? Yeah, I mean, it's just it's crazy how this went on and then would get appealed and would win on these crazy things hypnotized. I just you know, after a while, you start to shake your head and kind of go, well, where's this coming? From you know, I'm just I'm disappointed in the system. And actually one of the reasons I wrote this book and followed up on this was because of the way the system works. What's
happening to the people. It's not just you know, a guy kills girl, gets arrested, goes to jail, dies of a death penalty or just life in prison, and family griefs, buries the child and moves on. It's not that straightforward anymore. It's so it's just so much going on that how does one deal with it?
You take us to the incredible third trial, and now Rodney Alkala is sixty five years old and this is January eleven, twenty ten. And what we did skip over is the DNA advances in the turn of the century, as we all know began in the eighties, but really by the early two thousands that were making some real strides with DNA advances and then resultant investigations that were
come to fruition because of it. And you talk about the DNA with these advances, he was a sample was taken because of a state law, and as a result, finally the DNA catches up and he gets hits for five murders, and so we have a trial in twenty ten. It's completely different because we're looking at much more evidence, not dependent on circumstantial evidence. This is DNA evidence, much
more convincing. And with this third trial, Rodney alcala, as you write, he has fought hard and long to try to represent himself and he has just an investigator there that's done some interviews for him on behalf of him. So now with this third trial, Rodney alcala is representing himself. This sets the stage for one of the most bizarre trials and some of the most bizarre trial events in true crime history. Tell us a little bit about.
This, Yeah, what you know, complete craziness. They allow him to be his own, his own guy. So he shows up at court, he's got long curly hair, sunglasses, sports jacket, jeans on, and he's there for a good time. And that's exactly how he acted throughout the whole trial. He was smiling and laughing and happy and entertaining. He was
entertaining to himself. And you see, and this is kind of you know, I come back to that again in the sense that so you're allowing this guy to put his victims and victims families on the stand and ask them questions. It's just complete craziness. The whole thing went when bizarre, and like you said, they had found those other hits, so he was being They combined those murder chargers all in one. So the trial wasn't just the
Robin Samsung murder. It was the whole gamut. But I will say he only defends himself on the samsu case. He didn't seem to focus on any of the other cases. And it had almost no questions to ask and no just nothing. It was almost like he wasn't focused on those, didn't care about those. He was just focused on Robin Samso and it was you know, he showed them movies, he showed them his performance on the dating game. He asked them the most bizarre questions really focused on jewelry.
He always asked them about if they were wearing ear rings or if the victim was sold with ear rings, if they had ear rings, what kind that was his? That seemed to be right through the whole trial on all of the witnesses.
When you talk about the ear rings, what we forgot to mention was that there was one of the victim's ear rings found in the home, and so it is curious how he keeps focusing, not really cross examining witnesses when he has an opportunity, but he is focusing almost all of his questions about ear rings. So some of those earrings were found and the DNA was linked to
those ear rings. And what he tried to say with the movie, why he said he presented the movie and said he to you have to watch very carefully, is that he tried to introduce witnesses to say he always wore those kinds of ear rings. Yet there was testimony from the mother of the victim to say those ear rings were hers. So bizarre part of this trial is the cross examination of that mother, Mary Anne, to say those were my ear rings. And this incredible cross examination.
He is put in his place on the stand too, which is very very interesting because one person just looks them right in the eye and tells them and I believe that's Marie Anne, and that puts him in his place, and he ends up resting without asking any more questions.
The rightfully does not cross examine her anymore, but he cross examines himself for five hours and asks himself ridiculous questions about what he did for the entire month of June, just excluding June twentieth, so the court had to endure five hours of him doing this. And as you write in your book too, another again interesting star that just happens to be in the courtroom is Charlie's Theren who is there as you write. She's researching her role as
Aileen Warnos for her upcoming movie Monster. So she's at the penalty phase of this. And we've jumped a little bit ahead with this trial into the penalty phase. But in the penalty phase there's some interesting witnesses that the prosecution saves, and there's a very dramatic scenes in court as well. Who it comes to the penalty phase of this case.
For me, I found that Telly Shapiro was probably the most influential. I don't know if that's the word, but that was definitely the most dramatic. And she was the original when she was eight years old, sixty eight, and she was, as we call it, the first known victim, you know, and that was the most dramatic I think throughout the whole the whole trial, because you know, could you imagine being in that physician and now and I believe she was much she was like closer to fifty
at the time. I didn't, I can't remember, but you know, it's just it's got to be the most dramatic just having her stand or sit before him and and testify and actually answer questions.
You know, what was this? Yeah? What was fortuitous for the courts was that because of his narcissism and ego, wanting to be a witness at his own trial, helped the prosecutor be able to introduce all those prior crimes. So he was able to ask about all of those things that basically ruined the first two trials, and so that really was fortuitous, wasn't it for be able to bring in all that information, bring in in these other witnesses in the penalty phase, to be able to show
the jury exactly who this person was. And we have, I guess save the audience from some of it, but they did get into horrific detail of the abuse. You know, I won't get into it, but just the physical violation that each of one of these victims endured, and then very many of these victims were posed for further humiliation and shock value when police would find them. Isn't that correct.
Yeah, Like I said, there was some sort of he was trying to display something to people, and he was trying to do things in a way to get a reaction. He wanted that and why, you know, there's there's just nothing I can explain about what he did why he did it. But it wasn't just a simple attack or there was so much more to it. The torture and the and the display and the burning and all the things that he did. There was a lot more going on here, and I don't know if we'll ever really know.
You know, quite often too, if you noticed in the trial, just as when he was picked up by Hodell the very beginning, when Steve Hodell, the detective from LA asked him, you know about what he did or why he did it, and he turned around and said, well that was that's Broughney. A call. I don't want to talk about him. He put himself in the third person a lot, and even during the trial it was all a third person sort
of way. So you have to wonder in his mind, does he think he's someone else or sometimes he's Robbney and sometimes he's someone else. It's one of those really bizarre things. And I don't think we'll ever resolve it because we quite often don't. And the unfortunate thing. Yes, you know, he'll never be put to death.
M hmm, yeah, that's for sure. Certainly. In the third trial, it was a murder during the commission of kidnapping. He was a premeditated murder with torture during commission of burglary, robbery and rape for Charlotte Lamb, deliberate premeditation, premeditated murder with torture during commission of burglary, robbery and rape of Georgia Wexted number four, the deliberate premeditated murder with torture of Jill Parento, and you talk about this. It was
a real feisty prosecutor to this, Gina Santriano. He had this judge Risseno, and the prosecutor again with Santriano, was this Matt Murphy that did some amazing again cross examination and very interesting across examination of Rodney Alcala in this
and led to, of course the conviction. There were a couple results from those photos that were released into you say in two thousand and you write the twenty ten that the police felt that there was a good idea to release about one hundred and ten or so photos of mostly young women. Why did they think that was a good idea and did it get any results?
Yeah? I think when they found all of those pictures, and because they were in such suggestive positions in the pictures, and a lot of them without clothing, they thought, well, who are all these people? Did they all suffered at the hands of the Kalla. Did they have a bad
ending as well? We don't know. So. At first the FBI and then now the New York Police for some reason New York, but they had all posted it all over the website, and they want people to identify any of the victims the pictures, if they knew anybody in those pictures, you know, who they were and where they are now, or who their family is and stuff, because they want to actually find out who all these people were,
you know. And they have found quite a few that had not had a bad ending or that did not get killed or attacked by him. So that's one good thing they're getting out of it. But another thing is that they are starting to find victims that did not come out of it well. And they came to their
end when they met Rodney Okella. So I think it's going to be the way it's looking now, Between that and the DNA hits that they keep getting, I think you're going to see quite a few more of his victims come up, whether they actually try him or not. On these cases, I'm not sure. It's kind of an open book right now, you know, because it comes down to money and timing and trying to find witnesses, and unfortunate, a lot of these cases will never come to trial. You know.
You talk about Christine Ruth Thornton and she was identified through those photos twenty eight years old, and he was supposed to go to Wyoming, but Alkala said he was too ill to travel, so that was canceled or postponed. Talk about as a result of this ongoing investigation that Joyce Gaunt and Antoinette Whittaker Joyce Scoutnt was seventeen years old and her friend was Antoinette Whitaker was thirteen when
they weren't friends. Pardon me, separate victims in Washington State nineteen seventy seven, Pamela Jean Lamson in San Francisco, And I mentioned Christine Ruth Thornton and Wyoming, and of course the ones in New York State. So this has expanded to again at least seven murders and definitely suspicion of many more.
Isn't that true, right, Yeah, Yeah, it's going it's gonna be he's going to be another Ted Bundy. He's going to have there's going to be an unknown amount and it's just going to keep coming up as they keep testing.
And it seems like from what we can tell is he traveled to all of these places and he would look for victims that would fit who was being killed at the time, Like remember the Hillside Strangler and I included that in there about the victims and two that we know he did ended up being his, but originally they were considered Hillside stranglers victims, and I think that's the case in New York. That's why he was choosing the older ladies for the forty four caliber. He wasn't.
I don't know if he was. He was that clever that that's what he was doing throughout all the states. Has been suggested that that's what he was doing, and that's why he chose totally different victims when he was in a different state, you know, different age, different shape, different way of killing, because you notice on a lot of the ones in other states he did not torture or display them like he did with a lot of these victims. So there was something going on in his mind.
He chose to do these things in a particular way for a reason, and he chose not to do it on a lot of victims in other states for a different reason. So I don't think he was just kind of going, well, i'll get a thirty year old here and that they won't connect me. I don't think. I think there's more to it than that. And yeah, you know, it's kind of sad and scary at the same time.
It is interesting too when some detectives have had to say, listen, you know, despite what a profiler might say that they don't change their remo or they don't change their signature, or they don't change their victim typology, we'll say and that would include age. And just recently they said, no, no, this is this is what a really clever killer would do, cast out on them, put to put the blame on
someone else and lead police on a wild goose chase. Certainly, this killer of Rodney Alcala has a lot of narcissistic tendencies. But one of them wasn't contacting the police. One of them was eluding detection certainly, so that was at least different from some other people that need to contact authorities.
Yeah, I think also with a Kella. You you know, people are very complex. You know, even good people are people that don't kill everyone in your life. You know, there's complexities to these humans. And so when you get killers too, it's the same thing. You know, you can have general rules and generally they have the same memo. But there's a lot of killers like al Keller out there that they're realizing it's just not it's not so much about them or what they're kind of how they're
doing it. It's it's there's more to the kill itself, and maybe they've got to get that fix how there they can. And you know, and you know yourself that there's just because they're a serial killer does not mean
they're super intelligent. They're not Einstein's. A lot of them are just regular people that have regular jobs or lived a pretty regular life and they fit right in society and their average and yeah, they can be clever at times, but as is in a lot of people, so I just I, you know, I don't I don't know if we can. I think, if anything, al Keller shows us that you can be kind of a chameleon in what
you're doing, even in murder. So I think people maybe will wake up to that and not just assume, Oh, that couldn't have been this girls, you know, like that's just kind of these thoughts.
Yeah, it was interesting too, and again pretty horrifying. I think for a younger audience to realize is that once upon a time, despite what people would say at face value is inherent creepiness, is a guy in the beach, dressed well with a big mullet haircut here with a camera around his neck. And that's all it took. Pretty well, Hey I'm I'm you know, good camera equipment and the idea that I'm in a contest, could I take your photos?
And he got women to undress, he got women to pose somewhat provocatively, He got people to cooperate with him based on a camera hanging around his neck and the assurance that he was a photographer.
That was it exactly. You know, I didn't know him personally, so just watching the TV and the films and the and the trials and stuff. But I think that apparently he had an incredible amount of charm. And this is why he could get a job in one day. He could get its parole office and to send him to New York. Let him go to New York in the first month. You know, he could talk that one agent into believing that this thirteen or fifteen year old girl was trying to set him up and just use them
for pot. And you know, he did a lot of things and got away with it. So people are not always on their guards. You don't always expect that the person you're talking to is a serial killer. You're thinking that it was just a normal guy. And if he could walk around and dress normal and act normal and look kind of normal, and he's a photographer and he's
a good photographer. Obviously he got in NYU and he worked, he decides, you know, Polanski the filmmaker, and so you know he must have had some sort of ability to turn it on and be noticed and get his way. You know, something about him made it easier. And people unsuspected, you know that they weren't not It just wasn't going to happen, you know, they just let it go. Very few. In fact, when you think about him roaming the beaches and after the fact, they found very few witnesses after
the fact that came forward that complained. So you have to wonder how many he actually got away with, you know. And that Samsoe case too in itself, when she was on the beach and he was approaching and doing that and the neighbor came up and he ran away from that, He still her later, do you know what I mean? It was because nobody was suspect. They didn't suspect. They just thought must have been a creep. Forget it. Yeah, they didn't. They didn't. They didn't follow up, And I'm
not blaming them. It's not a blame. But you just don't think yet, I not think. You know, you're walking down the road and you see someone who's a little bit off. That's just kind of how you go and you just keep it out your day. But so you're not expecting him to be watching and following you and then attack you later. You know, it's not in our mind. So I'm not trying to make people paranoid now.
Just yeah, but we didn't We didn't talk about another incredible incident too, where a mother goes into the courtroom and she has a secret in her purse in case things don't go the way.
She thinks, what what what's her plan? And she admits to it later. What what happens and what does she have in her person?
Yeah? That was that was kind of you know, I really kind of I keep shaking my head over that. She she came into the court and she watched the trial every single day, and inside of her perch she had a handgun and throughout most of the trial in her in her claimness that she had her hand in her purse on the with her hand on the gun almost the whole time, day after day. And what she was only about twenty feet away in the courtroom or
so in her seat. Her plan was that if he wasn't convicted, how kala that is, she was just going to shoot him right there. She was going to stand up, shoot him, kill him because justice had to be served in her mind. And so he did get convicted. And when she came out of the courtroom, of course she pulled the gun out and showed everybody. But how did how did you get in? I'm still confused because we're
talking in the two thousands. How can you walk into a courtroom with a gun without setting off the sector? I think you know there's yeah, well there's there's something more going on there. And I'm not trying to suggest a conspiracy, but there was some way that she was able to do this every single day and not get caught.
Well, there's some lack of security, to say the least. To say the least, we didn't talk about another victim here, Monique Hooy, that was lucky to survive, but she was raped, unfortunately on Valentine's Day in nineteen seventy nine, and he bit her and did all kinds of things to her, and she showed up for the penalty phase, and of course Rodney Alcala cross examined her, and he said he asked her questions like didn't I apologize to you after
I raped you? And she said, well, an apology is meaningless, and she wouldn't look at him, but he said, I did apologize. She said, well, it was fake, but I did apologize, and then she used it as an opportunity, said yeah, but you killed those other people. And then Matt Murphy that the prosecutor called Tory Shapiro and like we mentioned she was eight when she was kidnapped and raped and minutes from death. She was much different in that cross examination when he said that he apologized. You
have this very dramatic scene in this book. I will just tell the audience when he said he apologized as opposed to Manique wit this woman Tory Shapiro said nothing but looked him in the eye. The other Monique Hoit could not look him in the eye. She looked him in the eye, in the eye, and then he said no for their questions, didn't.
He Yeah, yeah, she was. She was not backing down. She was there. She was angry, she was knocked, backing down. She was not going to let him manipulate her anymore. It was over. That whole thing was behind her and she was very strong. Where Yeah, Monique Kite was very a timid. She was still scared. She was still living the trauma. Really it was, you know, she was not I don't think she was quite in the same place as Telly Shapiro was, you know, mentally.
You also talk about the mother Mary Anne, and again it's agonizing. We mentioned it that the idea that the prosecutor I'm sure is not doing something that he knows that will be overturned. That appeal he's doing is whether it's a man or female, is doing an exemplary job and trying to prosecute this person. But especially especially in death penalty cases, they're afforded every available appeal and there
is more scrutiny because of that death penalty conviction. In this what's heartbreaking is from again twenty years of this woman having to go to those separate trials. She agonized over and expressed her dismay over having to relive this over and over again, didn't she Yeah, yeah, this is.
What I said. You know, it's something that it affects these the victims and the families. They just can't I mean, how do you think it's like you can't put an end to it. You just you've got this in the back of your mind every single day of your life. This does not go away. This is not something you can spend time and move on. Here you're stuck. You're back at that place in nineteen sixty eight in her case, or yeah, you know, but you're back in that place
and it doesn't go away. You can't just you can't move on as honest as trials keep going and you know when you bring that up, you know, the death penalty cases get automatic appeals and quite often in California they get overturned.
Yes, yes, it's beyond frustrating for that many years. And again this is not the only case where that has happened. But you have to feel for these people that justice never really is ever served, and especially not through the courts, not with that kind of drawing out of a process, and especially when he's given again. I understand his ability to be able to defend himself, but to cross examine himself and then to cross examine victims, it's a high
price to pay for. And it's amazing that the prosecutor can convince these people to come and relive this again. It's hard to believe that Torri Shapiro after all those years, would want to and be able to come forward after those many years. But I think it looked like you had to put this guy away. When you start getting two or three trials, it looks like it's urgent to be able to finally put this guy away for his crimes.
And thank God for DNA. One thing before I let you go again, another dramatic, crazy scene that the trial was when the judge asked him if he wanted to make a statement, if al Kala wanted to make a statement, and he said, really no, but he wanted to play a song. What's the song he played for the judge in the courtroom.
Well, you gotta you gotta realize that this uh, this this guy his mind was, you know, I I don't I don't know what to say about his mind. You know, he was you know, he made them watch the Alison's restaurants that I can go through all of that stuff, and you have to realize that he had something going
on that, you see. That's what I mean. I don't know if he was trying to tell people something or try to you know, you know, I wish I could figure out his his mindset here and it just you know, I don't know, and you know.
It doesn't it doesn't make much sense. But what he did say, you know, in this case, he referred to the lyrics of Alice's Restaurant and pointed to the lyrics in particular where the character says to an army psychiatrist, I want to kill I mean, I want to kill So I think he's referring to his army stint and maybe possibly that he had this nervous breakdown again. Everyone seems to attribute it to his father dying suddenly, but we don't really get in so much information in terms
of what that relationship meant to him. Was there some something that wasn't said between him, wasn't was the relationship not on firm ground. We don't know what that meant, but it seems like if he has any seeming importance to what he did at this trial, and not to say that there is any evidence of that, but it just seems odd that the character is somebody talking to an army psychiatrist and they talked about I want to kill I mean I want to kill.
Yeah, And in that statement itself, in the movie itself, that was Ala got through trying to, you know, anti Vietnam War, like you have to be a person that wants to kill and the army wants you if you want to kill like that, you know, he was kind of making a statement, So I don't I don't know
if that was kind of it or not. I don't know if he was trying to make a statement that the arready wanted you to kill and that's why where he learned it where that's where he became that way, you know, it's it's you can't really, I don't know, you can't figure him out exactly, you know, and then he still talks about him in the third person. So they wanted Rodney to kill.
I just it doesn't not for much explanation. I think it just seems like he had an opportunity. He forced the issue in terms of another trial. I think he felt emboldened that he had gone to that point, and I mean, he became a jailhouse lawyer, he had got the permission to be able to represent himself. And I think it looked like, especially when you see video and you see photos of him, he was really I've seen
some people that look kind of nonchalant. He looked like he was really enjoying himself at that third trial, despite what he could face, despite what likely would happen, fite any kind of advice, he needed to have his day
in the sun. And it seemed like regardless, he didn't really have as much planned as you might have thought, given that he was permissioned to defend himself, not much of a cross examination, and the things that he chose to pick as particular subjects weren't particularly legal savvy, so it looked like he just enjoyed the day, enjoyed the attention.
And the only thing that seemed to really really rattle him, and even though the prosecutor was hammering him, was that appearance from Tally Shapiro that really seemed to just silence him.
Yeah. Yeah, it's the only thing that affected him, and the rest of it was just all a good time and he was having a good time. It was a party for him. It was entertaining. He was in the public, he was being watched, he got to dress up, he got out of prison. He was having a good time. And that's what it was to him. You know, at the end of the day, he was going to get convicted, sentenced to death in all four or five cases. Anytime he's going to go up, he's going to get it.
But the bottom line is it's going to be appealed. They won't put him to death, and then it'll he'll he'll just end up life in prison. And it's just the same. It's just a cycle. And everybody else that comes up, or anybody else that they decide to try to prosecute him on if the same thing's going to happen. He's he's going to have it's like a vacation. And that's where I think it's wrong. We're allowing people like
that to manipulate. Hey, think of the money that we have to pay as taxpayers to allow him to do this over and over and over again. And it's never going to end, and he's never really going to get punished. He's going to die in prison.
Yeah, it's very interesting too. In the book, we didn't talk about some of the role of jailhouse informants. Again on many cases on true murder, so many missteps using jailhouse informants. It seems like a mini industry in some of these prisons. How many guys have testified and then been deemed unqualified to testify seems incredible. A lot of things that we didn't cover in this book. I want to thank you very much for coming on and talking
about this. Rodney Alcala, the game show Serial Killer and your book The Killing Game. He sits in California State Prison right now, Corcoran, and like you say, most likely he will just live out his life. No death penalty will be enacted on him, ye will it?
Yeah? No, California. At the moment, the Supreme Court in California is ruled against it and they will not allow any death penalty to go through now. I think when it was sixty five out of seventy three and then turned down. So it's not going to happen as it stands. It's just not and they all get tried in California, so he'll just end up going through more trials and just dying in prison, which you know. Now, the Oxygen
Network made a show of the book. It's called Mark of the Killer, which will be out in December on Oxygen right gradually.
So yes, thank you very much for coming on and talking about the killing game. For those that might I want to take a look at the rather work. This is a Wild Blue Press release. And also tell us a little bit about your podcast, House of Mystery.
Oh hous a mystery we do. We're five days a week. We do crime history, some paranormal and forensics, and there's conspiracy, so each day has a different subject Monday to Friday. It's in LA and Seattle and you can tune in at the local station. If you go to something weird Media dot com you can get a schedule for where it's played and where you can get it on the podcast, and also all the books that any of us have done, any of the hosts.
Sounds good. And this is, like you say, a Wild Blue Press, and you are also published under R. J. Parker as well, and I guess you just go to Amazon and see all the books that Alan Warren has published in the last few years. Well, thank you very much, Alan, Oh yeah, absolutely, thank you very much, Alan R. Warren for The Killing Game, The True Story of Rodney Alcohola. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much. Hope to talk to you again real soon.
Thank you, good night. Yeah,