THE KILL JAR-J. Reuben Appelman

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six and nineteen seventy seven. Their bodies eventually dumped in snow banks around the city. J Ruben Appleman was six years old at the time the murders began, and had evaded an abduction attempt during that same time period, fueling a lifelong obsession with what became known as the Oakland

County child killings. Autopsies showed the victims to have been fed while in captivity, reportedly held with care, and yet with equal care, their bodies had allegedly been groomed post mortem scrub free of evidence that might link to a killer. There were few credible leads and equally few credible suspects. That's what the cops had passed down to the press, and that's what the city of Detroit and Ja Ruben Appleman had come to believe when the abductions mysteriously stopped.

A task force operating on one of the largest manhunt budgets in history shut down without an arrest. Although no

more murders occurred, Detroit and its environs remained haunted. The killer had presumably not been caught Eerily overlaid upon the author's own decades old history with violence, The kill Jar tells the gripping story of Jay Ruberman's Appleman's ten year investigation into buried leads, apparent police cover ups of evidence, con men, child pornography rings, and high level corruptions saturating

Detroit's most notorious serial killer case. The book that were featuring this evening is The Killed Jar, Obsession, Descent and a Hunt for Detroit's most Notorious serial Killer, with my special guests, screenwriter and author and journalist Jay Ruben Appleman. Welcome to the pro and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Jay Ruben Appleman.

same city in the same area. Again, tell us why this is important to you as a story and when you decided to become involved. Tell us just a little bit about your background and why this was important to you then and why was it important to you later on and able to enabling you to be able to write this book.

of these murders. It was. It was were There was talk of it everywhere you went. It was a part of our common vocabulary, in our common emotional sort of landscape and psychological landscape. And at the same time, when I was seven years old, somebody tried to abduct me. I was in a little shopping plaza in a what you would call a pharmacy I guess, like a right Egg Walgreens kind of place, although then it was called

Century Drugs. And I was shoplifting candy, and I was just, you know, five blocks or so from my house, I crossed a major intersection. I went to this shopping center. I went into the store and I was trying to steal some candy and I stuck it down my pants. And as I was doing this, I looked to my right and down the aisle, maybe thirty feet was a man who saw me doing this. He was in his forties. He had every detail of him I remember very clearly.

I've never forgotten it he but in brief he was a larger man wearing a blazer, and it looked like he was a security guard. Back then, security personnel wore official uniforms. They weren't so much undercover in shopping areas. And I thought, okay, well, I guess I better put this candy back and get the hell out of here. And I put the candy back. I left this store, and I crossed through the parking lot. I crossed back over this major intersection, maybe two rains each way of traffic,

and I crossed into my little neighborhood. And this whole process of getting over there took maybe ten minutes or so and maybe a little lesson. And as I was in relative safety, this man pulled up in his small compact car. I was walking along the grass, the curb between the grass and the street, a little curb line and really close to where a car would drive. And he pulled up in his compact car, and he opened his passenger side door, and he reached out for me,

told me in as he was reaching out. It was a quick sort of the speaking and the and the motioning on his part happened concurrently, and he reached over to try to grab me and stuffed me into his vehicle, and I took off. I left because I thought I was getting, uh, you know, busted for shoplifting. I know

now that that's not what happens. I know now that security guards don't travel several blocks in their their personal vehicle and track down a child and trying to stuff them into their car because he almost stole some candy. At the time, at the time, I thought that's what had happened, and I didn't tell anybody because of that. I didn't tell my parents. Hey, this guy tried to tried to trunk me, as it's called if it were

his trunk. But uh, and I kept this to myself looking back as an adult on these on these crimes, which was which was sort of my my interest was sort of prompted by this, this this feeling I had had over the years that that escalated into like obsessions sort of trying to figure out who this person was who had tried to snatch me, And looking back into that, I realized that there were similarities in the open KINI child killings had and the mL of this particular guy.

These four kids had been snatched what we presume from very close to, if not right upon these live shopping centers. The car they were allegedly looking for was a compact car. They suspected that the man they were looking for may have been posing as a policeman or security guard or clergy something like that, because there was never any struggle witness from any of these kids, so nobody noticed they

had disappeared. You know, all of the things seemed to fit, and now that didn't pan out to be true when I got into the investigation, But my investigation to the attempted abduction of myself led me to really obsess about these crimes, and the case just took over my life for about ten or twelve years. And throughout those years and with the publication of the book The kill Jar, my ultimate obligation has been to the family members of

the victims. And that means, well, I did write a book and there's a TV show, and my interest was anchored by my own sort of moment of terror, so to speak. You know, I don't tend to play that up too much in the book. I don't tend to play up my experience too much with the almost abduction, because at the end of the day, mine was an almost subduction, and these these four kids were abducted and horribly abused and murdered, and I so that's what anchors

me to the case. But I tend to focus on the book and in my thoughts on what happens after I get interested in the case, you.

three of these areas are very blue collar areas. Back then, you know it was a suburb. But you jump on the freeway and in five minutes you're in the city of Detroit. And I say that I preface that because Detroit comes into play later in this investigation in a very important way. But Mark Stevens February fifteenth, nineteen seventy six. I did a war party with his mother. He lived

just a few blocks away. He decided that they want to go home and turn on television watch a movie, and he was allowed to do so because that's that's what people did at the time. You know, regardless of your age, you can walk wherever you wanted. And of course twelve, you know, is a relatively old old, old young boy. You know, he's almost a teenager, and of course he's going to walk alone to where he goes.

But he left the American Legion. Yeah, he left the American Region Hall and he was never never seen again until the nineteenth when his body was so it's four days later his body was discovered. There are, oddly, there are conflicting reports whether or not he was discovered on a low brick wall behind a shopping a retail district, like a low rent retail district in Southfield, one city over,

or or whether he was found in the snow. You know, when you google this case, man, this is one thing that becomes very important to When you google this case, you'll find all kinds of things. You'll find information saying that all four of these victims were found in the snow, placed on their back, their arms crossed, presented to the world as if gifted by the killer. Things of this nature, creepy thing like that. In reality, there's conflicting reporting from

police documents, from witness statements and such. It's assumed that Mark Stebbens was placed on a wall at times. It's also assumed at times that Mark Stevens was leaning in the snow near this little wall. What we know, regardless of his placement, is within ten feet I can tell you I can walk out to that dump site and say this is more or less where Mark Stevens was found.

And that's all that at this point really matters. What also matters is that the official narrative at the time was that Mark Stebbens had been bathed, he had been scrubbed clean, his clothing had been washed and pressed. There was no trades evidence, no evidence of any sort that would link us to any kind of killer. You know.

The presentation of his body was such that it was, it was said, was such that a lone, maniacal serial killer must have been in charge of this situation, somebody who knew police work, somebody who meticulously took care not to leave evidence, somebody who then also placed the body in such a way as to taunt the police, begging them to try to find him, which they would never be able to do. This was the myth, This was the low and the police let that wor linger for

various reasons. That we can speculate on. But when his body was found, the narrative was such that nothing had been left behind. That's not true, and I'll get into that briefly. I can tell you that there was blood evidence, there was semen evidence, there was salive evidence, there were fingerprints, hairs, all kinds of stuck men. So we didn't know this though,

until years later. And I would say nobody really knew this outside of the police force until I and a handful of others started really digging into this case in about twenty ten. Like you say, the next victor, the next victim was Joe Robinson, also twelve years old, disappeared December twenty second in in uh a similar fashion. She was on her own, she her her well, we'll skip to the chase here. She disappeared the twenty second. She

was found on the twenty sixth. She was found on the side of of a busy freeway, dumped into the snow with a shotgun blast to her head. If I back up a second, I remember to tell you that Mark Stevens was was murdered by asphyxiation. Joe Robinson, Yeah, Joe Robinson was on the on the outside. It appeared that she may have been murdered by this shotgun blast, but there was evidence to believe that she was also

asphyxiated prior to that. There's a lot of questioning around this shotgun blaster to her face, and many believe and there is supporting allegorical evidence to believe that she was shot post mortem. She had or or close to post mortem. She was possibly asphyxiated, not to death, but to what the killer thought was death. Where she was dumped, the killer may have realized she was alive and shot her.

She was shot though we know at the dump site based on blood, blood patterns and such, that was December twenty second, where she was missing.

was held in captivity for nineteen days. She was not found until the twenty You know, she was not found until the twenty first of January. All sorts of Again, all sorts of evidence points to the fact in retrospect, when somebody goes back and looks at the files, points

to the fact that this was a rated murder. At the time, they started to publicly allude to the fact that that the murders may have been related because of the proximity and dates, because of some of the similar mo o. Three months later, Timothy King, eleven year old boy, was taken after purchasing some items had a small strip mall pharmacy such as the one I had visited uh and he left and and they This is the only abduction that may have had a witness to the moments

before it. A witness indicates that Timothy King was seen talking to a man next to a vehicle that was a blue Gremlin. This is a small compact car. It's blue with a white hockey stripe of paint up its side, and this man and the Gremlin are are famous in this case for having made it to a composite a poster wanted poster with a composite sketch of the man

and an image of the blue gremlin. And this for all those in the Detroit area who remember this case from the seventies and eighties, this is what is remembered most, the picture of the man and the blue gremlin. It is said that both of the boys were sodomized with objects, although both boys had evidence left on their bodies that would indicate that they were sexually abused. Beyond just object objects.

There was a new big hair found in Tooothy King's growing area, and there was that was not his, and there was of course seamen found on Mark Stevens, and you know, there's there. Their official line is that the girls were not sexually assaulted. Well, there is allegorical evidence as well as news reporting UH indicating that that's probably not true. There was a debate between the medical examiner UH and the corner that that had to be relooked

at three different times. UH. This disagreement about whether or not one of the girls had been assaulted and sexually assaulted in and and in reality, UH, it's believed and I and I discussed in detail the UH, the the probability that whether they were physically sexually assaulted or not is not is not so much relevant as the things that tie them to a abuse of a sexual nature,

regardless of whether or not they were physically violated. You know, you can you can commit criminal sexual conduct on child without actually you know, physically touching them. You can fallograph them naked, you can position them, you can of course abused them in many ways that are and so you know, there are a lot of investigators at the time who who alleged that possibly these crimes weren't even related. It was short sighted them, it was lacking uh a common

common sense in that in that assumption. And and that's the four victims. And then the killings mysteriously stopped. Mark Stebbins, Jill Robinson, Christinahala, and Toothy King. We know were linked based on physical evidence that was left behind on their bodies, but we do not have UH subsequent killings with similar physical evidence or similar suspects. So we believed that these four were the only four uh in under the umbrella of the Oakland County child killings.

children had been fed while in captivity. So this indicated to the press and to the police initially that this was an unusual type of murderer. This was a person who cared for the kids, who who you know, coddled them in some ways for compared to the usual standards of known serial killers and such. But I say to you that you know, if you're holding somebody for nineteen days and you want to continue to abuse this person for nineteen days, well that person needs to be fed.

If you are holding somebody for four days and you want to continue to use them in certain ways. It's very possible that they should be fed, you know, and so and so I think the press. It appears that the press made a lot out of a little because they were, you know, they were looking for headlines, and the police did not do much to dissuade them from these kinds of narratives. Now we will have to look at why the police didn't dissuade them from those narratives.

The one thing that was of interest to police specifically, and this is I think when the babysitter lore really took over, was Timothy King's parents made public please uh to the killer, both on television and and in print to return uh Timothy to them. And Uh. One thing they said was, uh, We're We're waiting to bring you home and feed your your favorite dinner. Fried chicken is

something they mentioned. And and and Timothy King was found with fried chicken and the contents of his stomach, uh, indicating to the police that that the killer had watched that broadcaster or read that article. I can't remember which, whether it was printer or TV at the moment, but but that article or news story had allegedly filtered through to the killer, and the killer seemed to care, you know,

and and give healthy king fried chicken and that. Yeah, and that's and that's possibly true, man, you know, I mean maybe the killer did think well and as well give him fried chicken, you know. sEH. But but but yeah, but you know, the babysitter. We say the babysitter. But it's very clear that these kids were violated horribly, and and so the real narrative of the Oakland County child

killer that became more prevalent. The babysitter is something that lingers in splashy headlines on old blogs or topic s threads and things like that, but it's not something that that very many people in the know really really refer to very much.

board that flooded in. They established a task force, first in a little building, then in a bigger building, and they had an active, flown, buzzing hive of a task force investigating Allegedly thousands of tips. Something like twenty thousand tips were called in in the initial years of the investigation. However, two of those tips that were investigated, numbers three sixty nine to three seventy, were related to two prime suspects

who continue to be the prime suspects. I'm going to back up and just tell you what happened with them initially, and then I'll talk more about them, and then I'll talk to you about how this investigation shut down. Initially, a Christopher Bush and a Gregory Green, two people who had been who were currently being charged with criminal sexual conduct charges throughout the state against minors throughout the state,

had been called in as tips. They were believed to be by outsiders who had called them in to be associated with these killings. Somehow, Christopher Bush and Gregory Green were called in and questioned, these are people. I'll give you a little background. Gregory Green had come from California in the year prior after having served a short stint in a mental institution for a conviction of fifty counts of criminal sexual conduct against children. One of the children

he had sexually assaulted, he had asphyxiated. He was not by putting his hand over the kid's mouth. He was not sure if the kid was alive or not. He burned him with a cigarette several times to see if he was alive. He still couldn't tell. He drove this boy to a hospital and dumped him on the grounds and then drove away. That's one of his victims. So remember Gregor Green sexually assaulted a boy he had just

taken for assault. For assaulting to assault him, he had closed his mouth to the point where the kid passed out, and Gregor Green had dumped him off in public and taken off. He ends up doing a year in a mental ward and as a psych word and comes to Michigan where he meets up with Christopher Bush. Christopher Bush is the son of a wealthy General Motors executive at

the time. And you have to remember General Motors or the auto industry in general, was at the center of wealth in our country, similar to the tech industry in Silicon Valley, or to the oil industry in Houston, something like that. The way we think of those areas, Detroit was one of those epicenters back then, if not the largest at the time in our country. UH. The millionaires of the time were would be now would probably be

equivalent to the billionaires of our time today. And those in Detroit was an area full of these types of millionaires and certainly full of millions funneling through that economy based UH through the executive level of that economy. And Christopher Bush was the son of that executive level of economy. Right. And UH, Christopher Bush and Gregory Green had sexually assaulted UH dozens of children a little bit north of Detroit, UH in certain areas and had been called in as

suspects in this case. They were they were brought in for questioning. It was they took polygraphs. It was said that they passed those polygraphs, and there was no more interest in them as Oakland County child killers suspects. Period, Christopher Bush, something like a year later, allegedly commits suicide, and very shortly after the suicide, and Gregory Green goes

to prison for the criminal sexual conduct charges. Christ Bush never made it to prison, although I can also say that he wouldn't have he had he had been given probation on charges he had been currently facing for those same charges Gregory Green. Gregory Green, his compatriot, got life

in prison. This gets a little complicated. I'll slow it down and just say that that Christopher Bush allegedly commits suicide, and very shortly after, this massive hive of a task force comprised of the FBI, the State beliefs, the county cops, and the city cops from places like Ferndale, Berkeley, Southfield, Livonna, and Detroit itself, all of this buzzing hive of activity of investigation shuts down, they pack up, and they move on.

Very shortly after Christopher Bush allegedly commits suicide. Throughout the years, other suspects are looked at. They're tied to other criminal sexual conduct charges with children. They're tied to pornography syndicates, They're tied to all kinds of things. These suspects are

looked at. Throughout the years, nobody is ever found to be allegedly ever found to be associated with the Open County child killings, but roughly around twenty ten, thousands of pages of FOYA documents are received through Barry King, the father of one of the suspect of one of the victims,

Timothy King. Thousands and thousands of pages. And when I say pages, I mean crime scene narratives, autopsy reports, internal departmental narratives, evidence catalogs, all documentation from the case related to Christopher Bush specifically is received by very King. This this information, the stockpile of maybe about five thousand pages or so, becomes the focal point of my investigation after

it's handed off to me from from Barry King. And I can say, without a doubt, without a shred of of of questioning about whether or not I know what I'm looking at or something that, without a doubt, Christopher Bush and Gregory Green Uh should have been looked at much much more thoroughly at the time, as well as other players related to what I alluded to it in a pornography syndicate and UH, and I believe at this time,

under today's current prosecutorial standards, this case could be solved today. Uh. If not, if an end probably was already solved. That that that most of the information that would have led the police or the public or the press to focus on viable suspects was was buried or misdirected or shoved away or quote lost.

And some of the some of the key key evidence has allegedly been lost in some of the key documents are either lost or highly redacted when viewed, and so there's a lot to talk about. But I can say when your original question, probably ten minutes ago now was how did the police investigation? How did the police investigation proceed? And it proceeded as if the way you would expect three hundred people to proceed if they were not given

adequate information. So I don't blame active police officers working this case at the time for what they didn't know. There are plenty of fantastic, fantastic cops working this case at the time and continue to. There's an officer named Jack Calbflash who who is retired right now, continues to

work this case in his spare time. I met with Jack cal Flesh, and unfortunately it was discovered that I have documents from back in seventy six and seventy seven that he never saw, although he was an original task force member. So I have key evidence based documents sitting in my possession right that one of the lead investigators on this case never saw, although this the documentation existed before before he left the case. So you have the most highly regarded key figures in the case not being

provided the information they needed to solve this case. And that's how this police investigation went. And the question remains, why.

in his in his bedroom, his home bedroom. He's in his twenties, but he was in trouble. He was under investigation, so he's staying at home. He's got to meet with lawyers that his family's paying for and such. So he's living at home and his parents are in Europe, and he allegedly shoots himself in the head with a rifle. A Maige, a housekeeper, shows up. Can't get into the house,

and here's the dog's barking. She says something suspicious. She thinks she doesn't know why she can't you know, she doesn't say, I mean if you show up and you can't get in a house. It's not necessarily suspicious, you just can't get into the house. But she calls, but she calls Christopher Bush's brother. The brother then calls the police. The brother doesn't say, I'll go over the house and

see how everything's okay. He calls the police first, then drives over to the house and he meets the police at the house. They get into the house, they find Christopher Bush dead in the upstairs bedroom, on his bed. This is I say this, This is the narrative. What really happened. I'm not speaking to you. I'm telling you what the narrative is. The narrative is they go upstairs and they find Christopher Bush dead on his bedroom, in

his bed. On the wall, tacked to the wall is in his bedroom is a pencil drawing of Mark Stebbins screaming in pain. Now it doesn't say Mark Stebbins screaming in pain, but it's a drawing of a boy wearing a hood who is spot on for Mark Stebbins. And Mark Stebbins was allegorically, anyway told said to have been found with his hood up. We have a we have

a drawing of the first victim. We have ropes found in his closet, ligatures and not only is there no blood splatter UH around Christopher Bush, who is allegedly shot with his twenty two rifle by himself, I mean allegedly shot himself. There's no blood spare. All all finger all fingers, all body parts in proximity were tested for gunshot residue. There's no gunshot residue. There's no blood spatter. There's no gunshot residue. There's a photo, there's a drawing of Mark Stebbins.

There are ligatures found in his room. Uh. Seemed to be set out the step, the photo, the drawing seems to be displayed. The ligatures seem to be displayed immediately. Mark Stebbins's death is I'm sorry. Immediately. Christopher Bush's death is labeled a suicide.

the gun of a suicide victim. Well, it matters because behind the scenes of this suicide victim, we say, behind the scenes, you look at the document now, which nobody had. Back then, Christopher Bush was actively being looked at as a suspect in the Oakan County child kinds. In fact, his partner, Gregory Green, had turned him in, as the killer had said during Green's interrogation, Christopher Bush killed the Stebbins boy. He said that to the police. Police let

everybody go because they passed polygraphs allegedly. But the point is, very recently he had been actively looked at as a as a as a suspect in the killings of four children. And here is a gun, and here is a picture of one of the dead kids, and here are ligatures, and it was said that the boys were bound based on autopsy reports or corner reports. And they let this

gun go. Why why do they do this for the same reasons they immediately allow it to be labeled a suicide for the same reasons the father is allowed to cremate the body before and he you know, for their UH investigation into possibly the DN like DNA. I mean, they didn't have much DNA stuff back then, but with the collection of hairs or such from from Christoper Bush. Christmap Bush was a main suspect. He killed himself. He's got evidence, at least circumstantial evidence indicating that maybe he

was involved. There's the there's this image of Mark Stevens on his wall, and and basically the police turned their backs on this scene, which was no doubt a crime scene, whether it was a murder or or a suicide. It was a scene that should have been investigated further as

a crime scene would have been investigated. It should have been handled with the utmost careac They were talking about a prime suspect in the killings of four children that hundreds of investigators have been dedicated to looking looking into. So it doesn't make sense. It defies all logic. This this suicide, and and the fact that it's labeled a suicide also defies logic. And that's just not me, that's that's any serious investigator looking at the UH the suicide report.

In fact, I recently met with a lead uh, criminologists in Canada as part of this TV show that's being filmed, and and we went up to Western University in Ontario and met with this guy who has done his own analysis of this suicide scene. He concurred with everything that I say in the book, and so does Jack Calflish, and so does anybody who really touches this case with a serious eye. It's impossible to believe that this was just a suicide. It looks more like it was a murder.

And then you have to say why, And that's a different part of the story.

been so far. Tell us about that.

or whatever. And even if you you know, the initial narrative is still at that time, back in seventy all the way through the eighties, all the way through the nineties, all the way to two thousand and you know, eight nine ten is you know, for three decades basically people are looking for one person. As I start to dig in, it looks like maybe there's people involved here, maybe there's

two people. And then as I really dig in, and you mentioned this article because the article is the sort of redirect for me which wed me to uh, the Cast cord Or in Detroit. The Cast Corridor at the time was was a very impoverished area, one of the one of the most impoverished areas in our country, uh, teeming with with with prostitutes and and drugs and and and all the things that come with with areas that

are socially and fiscally deprived. And and in that area there was there were several uh uh prolific uh child pornographer child child pornography consumers and distributors and pornographers and

makers of it as well. And in that area, uh there are found to be a couple of people who uh it looks like have ties to the Christopher Bushes of the world, Christopher Bush specifically, as well as the people in suburban Detroit and those those uh uh pedophiles in in the interior of Detroit in this dark teeming sort of underground uh uh are you know are later found to have been prolific lasters as well, and several

of them are in prison. Ted Lamborghin uh goes to prison for for uh child moles station uh a man named Richard Lawson who is later uh found to be uh previously and later found to be tied to many criminal sexual conduct uh events, but it's put away for a murder uh he he of a of a grown man. He is also a prolific child you know, pederist and and and then uh interestingly enough, in the heart of Detroit.

Uh there appear to be links to this this most insidious uh part of the case in northern Michigan, in an area called North Fox Island, which is a small island off the western coast of uh Lake Michigan. In Lake Michigan, there was a man named Frank Sheldon who came from Detroit money.

He would have these children on the island. He would receive federal and state sub subsidies for doing this charitable work of running a camp for for people to rehabilitate their sort of their troubled asked out of them. And but in reality this camp was run at as a molestation and pornography mill by Frank Sheldon and several of his partners in this one Dire Grossman and and uh

Gerald Richards and a couple of other people. These people up in this northern part of Michigan took in boys to this place that was only reachable by airplane in the winter or or ferry in in in the summer. So once these children were on this island, they were trapped on this island with these older men who routinely molested then photographed them during these molestations, set up photo shoots as it were, and abused them for their own

sexual appetites and reasons. But also uh uh pumped out that pornography into the greater world of child pornography consumers that that stretched back down to Detroit as well as to to the east. And this this, this uh was the beginning of of uh what later became readily seen as other pornography mills slash camps, slash uh you know, whatever you call it, people running things like church camps

and such. But they were really for these purposes. And and we later discovered through FBI documents and such that that these the proliferation of this type of thing was was wide, which was which was scary to find out. However, when you mentioned that article, uh uh, it basically is

the article. It's that that indicates to me that the possibility, just from a gut feeling, that that that something might have been off in our original look at the case, that that that what we called the isolated murders of these children were not so isolated that they were tied possibly to this larger port of Graphy syndicate, And after I started with that, after that gut feeling, I started looking in that direction for documents, and sure enough, plenty

of the documents indicate that, specifically in Timothy King's instance, that there were Timothy King was likely alive and passed to other pedophiles at the time. We can also believe that based on evidence from from the clothing of the victims. Now on our most recent looks we have we have physical and allegorical evidence, but focus on the physical because that's what the police want and that's what they're evidence to show us that multiple people were involved in these crimes.

Now we say, okay, we know this is true because we have multiple hairs from different parts but from different people. And I say, not just random people. Uh, there is a there is a known pedophile who is currently serving time, who's who who had hair evidence pulled from his vehicle that that is not his hair, though it was somebody he was rolling around with. That matches the bodies of two of the victims. We have the same carpet fibers

on all of the victims. So we have and then we have and then we have hair from another person that matches one of the other victims, so we have we have multiple people with multiple hairs matching multiple bodies. Everything points the fact there were multiple people involved in these crimes. And these people also happened to be involved in those pet pedophile tentacles, so their child pornography tentacles.

I mean to say that stretched back and forth between North Fox Island and the Detroit area, and it's very, very troubling once you can do it like that, but the evidence seems to point in that direction.

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at checkout. Terms and conditions apply. That's get fifty dollars towards select mattresses by visiting Casper dot com slash true murder and using promo code true murder at checkout. Now, Jay Rubin, you've with your incredible investigation. You have, as you coined it, termed it the tentacles of.

killer gone run amok, a far more organized thing. And we talked about Chris Bush's apparent murder rather than suicide. Continue with the links that you investigate and some of the other mysterious deaths that occur in connection to this.

uh is Birmingham's first police officer. These people are all just putting in a place in a line, uh, you know, as you see, as you'll find in the book, my hunt for Renny Laila turns out to be you know, Uh, I stopped hunting. She's alive. But but uh McKinney specifically, UH is somebody who I followed a little bit in the book. And and it turns out that that that McKinney has ties to the the uh Detroit underworld at that time. Again, McKinney also knew and was in close

proximity to a couple of the victims. Uh. This came to me later in the investigation. But and I and I don't want to say too much about him right now because the living relatives of the area who who are not you know, and he has not been uh actively investigated charged with anything in the past. He was not a suspect. But his murder, I will say this, his murder, which remained unsolved, UH, is something that appeared to be uh related to the same underworld of the time.

Uh he was involved in you know, uh sexual what would be considered sexual Devincy dedncs of the cast area. And and I won't and I don't want to say very much about that because, like I say, his his uh living family uh probably deserves the respect of me not talking too much about him, since he was not actively investigated by in my book. But but I want, but I want to say this, and I think this

is the larger point that you're getting to. The the tentacles of this case uh reach wide widely, not just to Fox Island, not just to the Christopher bushes, but the world at the time. The world of Detroit at the time had like three layers. It had, but very intensely three layers. It had your middle layer of just

common folk working their jobs. It had the upper layer of these executives uh uh profits profiteering, and and and and then it had this underbelly right that that is was was bigger and wider and thicker than the underbellies of the criminal organizations that you imagine of today. I mean, it was everywhere like mushrooms, how they spread underground to a field for miles. It was like that the roots

were everywhere. You pull up one of these mushrooms, and if you could do so without tearing all the roots, you know, they'd all be connected, and you'd have this godlike hand uh uh with with a mass of mushroom roots miles long and uh hanging from it. And that's really what this case is. When you when you pull up on the Christopher Bush is in the Gregory greens, what trails behind is so many things, so many connections to what appears to be continuous abuse for years by

pedophiles who were ignored. And what at the top though, the hand pulling up I would say in this metaphor that I'm just making up, so forgive me if it doesn't pan out. But the hand pulling up is something like is something like what we all imagine the political powers that be to look like this is the hand of of of the h Lee Bush's, which is Christopher Bush's father, which is the high money, politically entrenched hand. And that hand, the thing is that hand will do

anything to not pull up on that root system. And that's really what happened with this case. And I don't want to spend a lot of time telling you about the twenty five different pieces, the mushrooms and the roots and whatever, but I can tell you without a doubt whether or not somebody was found guilty back then unofficially is irrelevant. This case was intentionally quashed. It cannot be otherwise. And you look at the documents, you look, there's so

much information pointing to very very prime suspects. And the police will tell you and I and again, I love the police. I think they do fantastic work when they're

allowed to do it. But when you look into the investigation of this key of this case, all the way back to the beginning seventy six, seventy seven, of the eight the eighties, you see all sorts of very substantive leads, substantive you know, leads that would be followed today with all the resources available to us, that were concealed from

the public. They were concealed from the public, these leads, and not for the sake of maintaining the integrity of the investigation, which is the standard line that the police will tell you. They will say, and I say police, it's a broad term to say. The lead investigators, the prosecutors, whatever, they will tell you, we cannot talk about this because it compromises an open and active investigation. It's a line

of crap. It's been forty years. They will tell you this stuff has been buried because it would compromise our investigation, our forty year old investigation that we allegedly have made no dents in. That's not true. They will tell you that because they're told to tell you that, and because

some of them believe in that. Still, the reality is that this case was quashed to protect the identities of parties who were who were complicit in these crimes, because the identities of those parties in some instances lead back to the power structure, or lead back to the entrenched wealth of the family member of one of the victims, or lead back to you know, your Frank Sheldon's who

this guy was. You know, we're talking about a guy on North Fox Island who who absconded from the United States, evaded investigation, and remained a millionaire living in in the Netherlands, UH, evading extradition for the rest of his life and no doubt molesting people in the Netherlands. This is a guy who was among the most powerful, the most elite of Detroit at the time, and Christopher Bush had connection to Frank Sheldon and all these players that were at the top.

Runs skated UH from at least being labeled the Oaken County child killer, or at least at least being labeled and complicit to the killings. And I'm not saying Frank Sheldon was was was the Open County child killer. In fact, he was already he had already absconded at the time. He was not the Open County child killer by all, you know, practical looks, he could not be that person.

But these but the but but when you pull up that root system, it exposes all of this other stuff, and at this time in Detroit's history, that stuff was not meant to be exposed, and so it was not told up.

But but but the Boy Scouts of America has this file called the Perversion Files that it's laid in it and basically it's the it's it's a it's it's a parallel to the to what we know about the Catholic Church. For for decades, UH children had reported uh their their abuses too at the hands of Scout leaders to the upper echelons of of of the Boy Scouts Corporation or however it's run, and and and those files were kept,

but they were quashed. It's just like in just like in in the Catholic Church, Scout leaders were like quietly removed or they in some instances they were quietly repositioned to another troop, uh, you know, but taken away from that area if they wanted to be a Scout leader

or something. And and but but the Perversion Files chronicle thousands of cases of molestation, not very widely talked about for some reason, but clearly very well known and known enough that you can just get online and and and Google the perversion files of the Boy Scouts, and you'll find information. And what I found when I started looking into the Boy Scouts UH through through association with one of the other characters you talked about previously, is Ed Cole.

I'm not going to say Ed Cole had anything to do with anything UH. At this point, I don't identify him as as as a suspect. I identify his in some of the circumstances of his life as UH somewhat suspicious. But but I also identify that as possibly being a part of that larger rabbit hole that I mentioned falling down. Once you once you look into this case, you just your mind starts going haywire for a while, and you think is this is this is this is? This? Is

this right? And but when I got to the Boy Scouts, I landed on something pretty serious to me, not just the perversion files, but that that one of the people named in the perversion files as as a perpetrator of these molestations was UH, a guy who who under a previous last name of mcconaday, had molested UH a bunch of kids and and was identified as a problem for the Boy Scouts. He later he later changed his name

to Adam Starchild, which is very interesting. And Adam Starchild later became a financial counsel to Frank Sheldon during his time absconding from the US after the UH prior to being charged with crimes on on North Fox Island. So

Adam Starchild, this is the thread you're refurniture. Adam Starchild was was named early on in the perversion files of the of the Boy Scouts and also owned a travel agency which which for young boys of it was basically like what a lot of people do nowadays in Eastern Europe, you know, travel agencies out are just are just uh shell companies to to traffic people. And yeah, and and

Adam Starchild owned a h travel agency. He actually was a verified member of MENSA, A very intelligent guy, clearly, and he uh winds up in in cahoots with Frank Sheldon, uh, the the owner of North Fox Island, the pornographer and child monster scumbag who who relies on Adam Starchild for a very short time to figure out how to uh get money get his his personal wealth over to the Netherlands without without it being uh you know, taken by by the FEDS or whatever you want to call it.

And so Adam Starchild then also disappears. And and uh as recently as a little over a decade ago, was was living quite well writing books on how to evade taxes, how to he was living overseas writing books on how to invade taxes, how to uh set up uh double identities, how to uh become essentially somebody you're not and and and was selling these books legally online and and was associated with the press that was, uh like an underground illicit press that that that ran like you know, boy

love type of articles and things like that. And you know, these are some sick, sick dirt bags. And the thing is that at the time they all knew each other because they had to know each other because uh there was no internet where they could like connect digitally and get what they needed and whatever. These people like had personal connections via telephone and personal interaction and uh by by you know, actually showing up and being pressent with

each other. They knew each other intimately at the time because not until you did things back then. You know, it's interesting now and people want sick things, they just find it in anonymity. Online at the time, they had to reach out and put themselves out and they clearly want to do that with just everybody. So there was a syndicate of people like Adam Starchild. It makes sense

that he knew Frank Sheldon and helped him. Now, Frank Sheldon actually later tried to tried to sue Adam Starchrow something like that from overseas because Starchild actually embeddled some of Frank Sheldon's money, which is a little note to this case, but it shows you the type of people who are dealing with And also Adam Starchild is is h is uh indicated as in relationship to the abscam scandal of when you're looking to that, which is also

unrelated to this case. So I don't want to go on too many tangents, but but Adam Starsheld is a very interesting character and and it all starts for him as a scout leader, uh of truth whatever in Minnesota. I think it is, you know, molesting children and and you know, you don't look at Frank Sheldon without looking at Adam Starchild, just just like you don't look at Christopher bush out looking at Frank Sheldon, just like you don't look at uh uh uh Ted aberghin without looking

at Christopher Bush. And Ted l Aberghan is a living uh incarcerated man right now who's doing time for child molestations that took place back in those days. And and you know he appears to have information about this case. There there are also other people on Art Sloan and Vince Gunnalds who appear to have information about this case. A DNA match from the bodies was made to Vince Gunnels, who was a victim himself of Christopher Bush. But but

his DNA was on one of the bodies. MITO foundrial DNA match, so it's not nuclear, it's not as strong, but it's it's it's it's highly probable that it's that it's him or someone in his family, and his DNA was found in one of the bodies. And Art Sloan who is currently doing time from last stations. Vinceconalds is doing time but for drug related crimes. He has never been charged with any sexual misconduct, crimes or anything of the nature. Excuse me. Art Sloan is also doing time,

excuse me. And all these people should be looked at their living and they have direct ties to this case.

the orders and everyone's involved completely. It's a much bigger story of what likely happens all the time and what happened in this particular case. Yet, tell us a little bit more about the police connection in this.

around that name for for readers to understand. So that that's important to me because you know, I don't by any means name and a police officer passed or active, who I say, was, you know, uh, the Oakland County child killer for instance, or had participation in these crimes

for instance. I will say this though in the book and and and here with you now, I do say that that there is information to that that leads one to believe and the one that approaches this case with a reasonable sense of things, in a reasonable outlook, that leads one to believe that certain police officers were complicit in covering up, or quashing or misdirecting uh people from

the evidence. Uh. Now, it could be that they were told to you know, it could be that they were being political in their in their in in their actions. It could be that they were looking and taking care of themselves and looking after their retirement package. And it could be that, you know, there are many reasons. There are many reasons that police will not actively pursue something. And most of that is just like us at work.

When you got a job and your boss does you to stay away from something, and you focus on that thing, You're going to lose your job. And and and in the case of police work, the stakes are much much higher.

Obviously when you have an active investigation at the time anyway back in the seventies, in the eighties, Uh you know, I mean, these are real kids, These are real people who who were horribly murdered and real family members who are really dependent on uh, you know, not not having rumor and speculation filter through to the news and such. Completely understand the initial narrative of police who were doing a good a good job. And I'm not saying all

of them were, I'm saying the ones who were. I understand that initial narrative of look, we can't talk about this, it's an active investigation. Completely understand that. I understand why they would do that socially, professionally, I understand all the reasons at this time forty years later that those reasons don't hold anymore. What's what's the endgame of you holding

onto information or or quashing evidence, or misdirecting people. What's the end game one hundred years from now nobody remembers the case, because that's where that's going if you're allowed to do that. And that's why I wrote this book, and that's why other people look at this case. You don't get to say anymore that we're not allowed to tell you, but I will tell I will tell you specifically.

It does look like at the time and throughout the years, people have continuously misdirected from from the fact that that there were very substantive leads. Can see that that would have led to an active prosecution had they not been concealed from even the cops. Some cops appear to have done some dirtier work when people questioned the case. It appears that those questioning the case were sort of bullied

into submission. It appears not just that that outsiders to the case were bullied into submission, but it also appears that family members of the victims were bullied into submission. It appears, and I say it appears, but I also happened to know firsthand from stories from these people that that they were when they pressed on certain leads that we know now without a doubt were substantive leads that should have been looked at. They were told those leads

don't exist. They were told I don't know what you're talking about. They were told, for instance, the Christopher Bush stuff. This stuff, I say it like it's common sense that their common knowledgy at this point. At this point, it is back in twenty ten. Some of it started filtering out back when I initially released in twenty fifteen an excerpt from my book, and I just laid it all

out there. Since twenty fifteen, online, there's many versions of what I said about Christopher Bush and all these other people, because I let it out much before my book, because I was more interested in getting the information about the case out than I wasn't waiting for my book to get published so that people could read it. This wasn't about pub date, you know. This was about here's what happened, and I got out what I could in twenty fifteen.

The point is the point is that the investigators on this case knew about so so knew so much information about some of these leads, and they consistently not didn't tell the lie about knowing to the family. So when the family members started to find out, they'd say, who is this Christopher Bush? And they say, this is not a lead. Christopher Bush is not a suspect, you know. They would say things like that. As it turns out, not only was he initially respect but he remained a suspect.

It turns out that the polygraphs he allegedly failed, that he allegedly passed, he actually failed. It turns out that Gregory Green actually failed the polygraph that he allegedly passed. It turns out when there's this list, and there's this list, the list long as long as you know, as long as your kitchen counter, if you waid it all out, here's all the things that go wrong with this case. And it's not just Christopher Bush and Gregor Green. There's others.

There are many people who who who were actively being looked at. And yet when the family members the victims said hey, I heard this thing that you're looking at so and so, they were told, no, we're not looking at that person. We see now in internal correspondence. Internal correspondence is obtained through foua demand that that there were letters written to say the King family when Barry King said I want to know about this, or when Kathy brought this is her last name now, but it was

Timothy King's sister. When she says I want to know this, I want to know this, the police say this doesn't exist. We don't know what you're talking about. Here's a letter I can show you. Here's a letter that was written to the police by the prosecutors that says, we don't know anything about this and I'm sorry. That was written by the prosecutors to the king family that says we don't know anything about this, and yet here's alongside it. I can place a letter right on the ground, right

next to it. That's that's from internal correspondences between police say they do know about it. So we have we have written chronicle, you know, lies from the from the prosecutors, prosecutorial entities anyway, to the king family saying we don't know what you're talking about and you're wrong. We have internal police documents indicating the exact opposite. The King family is right. But we have the official narrative not just being misdirected or quest but but but not being admitted

to when called upon. Right, So we have we have family members of the victims. You know, a young boy was murdered forty years ago. His aging father, who is you know, in his eighties, wants to know what happened, and he says to the police, hey, I know about this, can you tell me more? And they say to we don't know what you're talking about what's going on there, what's happening in this situation that the victims' family members have become the enemy to the investigation. How has this happened?

Is one of the leading questions of the book. Why has this happened? Yeah?

one hundred and fifty a year or something. You know, it's private school that costs over one hundred thousand dollars a year to send your kid, you know, who's twelve years old to get an education, or fourteen or fifteen or whatever it is. And like you say, the descendants of the Rothchilds in the Churchills and the Shaws and the you know, the catch up money. You know, if they say, you know, people who come from our biggest industry and our rulers and kings and queens and whatever,

the descendants of those people go to school there. And I mean it's an amazing school. It sounds fantastic. They go horseback riding, they go hunting, you know, all this stuff that you see in the movies that the rich do. The real rich, and that's what I'm talking about. There's a level of wealth that we see every day. Oh that guy's driving a fancy beamer. It's you know, it's not the forty thousand dollars BMW, it's one hundred thousand

dollars BMW. That's not what we're talking about. When we say Christopher Bush was wealthy, Well, that's not what we're talking about at all. People think rich. Now there's like what a million millionaires in America? Rich mean or nothing to people now. I'm sure they want to be rich, but they don't quite understand the wealth that kings and queens and descendants of the Rockefellers and the Walmart franchise enterprise. I mean these people, the wealth these people have is

as we're seeing now in our political system. I won't get off on a large tangent, but we know, oh that billionaires get away with big, big, big, big crimes. And Christopher Bush, although his family was not valued in the billions at the time, because billionaire at the time was mostly unheard of. I mean, we had millionaires.

or something. That's not the point. The point is Christopher Bush spent cool days with the children of the most powerful people in the world. In the world, we're not talking about the rich elite of Detroit. We're talking about the freaking shaw of Iran man, you know, like we're talking about about the largest political, you know, political power base in the world. Was who Christopher Bush mingled with.

And so it's important to say how you know, it doesn't make sense he wouldn't get away with this, and I say, of course he would. Now I'm not saying to you Christopher Bush. I'm not gonna say this right now for the sake of this conversation. Christopher Bush was the Open County shodowkiller. I'm not saying that. But I'm saying is that Christopher Bush was never brought to task, was never tried, was never h was never indicted, was never all of the things that because of the power

and access that he enjoyed through his family. If Christopher Bush today or and I'm not just focusing on Christopher Bush here, I'm going to talk about other things too, But if Christopher Bush specifically today were brought We're an African American man, uh, he would be indicted in America. I'm ten percent of what they already had on Christopher Bush.

If you throw an African American poor man into court looking at multiple murders based on, you know, just anything that Christopher Bush had against him, that guy would probably go to prison. And that's an unfortunate statement about our criminal justice system. But the fact is Christopher Bush was looked at the way the elites are always looked at, the extreme elite. I'm not talking about people who are rich, I'm talking about the political elite, and he was looked

at it that. Now you could say, well, what about the other people that you say are involved in this case. I say to you that the other people were not looked at as well because they all led back to the politically entrenched. So you cannot say investigate. You know, if somebody is tied to Frank Sheldon, you know, a

millionaire quote philanthropists who serially in the less children. If somebody is tied to that person, you cannot investigate that that that that tie because it leads back to Frank Sheldon. So let's say Frank Sheldon's associate was not just molesting children at that camp, but was murdering them at that camp. Well, you're not going to investigate Frank Sheldon's not going to let you investigate that guy for these murders at his camp. You can't let that happen because it leads back to him,

right because his camp. So there's these associations that it's like that root system. When you pull up on a part of that route, the whole thing comes with it. And there are many reasons that this case was looked at. Some of it is because good cops themselves got shafted. Good cops themselves were prevented from doing, uh, the investigative

work that they needed to do. But the other reason, every time you look at it, it has to be that the that the there's there's political powers at me at the time, and there were other people as well. You know, the prosecutor at the time made critical errors. You go, you know, you go. Ruthy King was not yet killed when Christopher Bush was in custody for these csc charges. Christopher Bush was let out. Toothy King was later killed. You know, you have to wonder what the

prosecutor at that time was thinking. How did they let this guy out? You know, was their political motivation for him to quash evidence, to misdirect there's all kinds of stuff in this case, and and and what I can tell you without a doubt if you put me on the stand and say, here's the only chance you get say who did it? I can't necessarily do that, but I can tell you this. I can tell you this. Here's the million things nobody looked at and and and

it's not up to me. It's not up to me as a non official investigator and author a journalist looking into your case to try your case. It's up to you. And they haven't tried their case. So they say to me, you don't have all the information. I say to them, I say to them, I don't have all the information. Give it to me, right. So I can tell you all the things man, that lead one to speculate that this thing was just a dirty mess on purpose. But I depend on the police force to tell me where

I've gone wrong, and they won't. I depend on the police force to tell me where I've gone right, got it right, and they won't. The police force remains quiet and probably always will until people like me and then person who comes along next, and the person who comes along the next continue to call them out on it. And that's what this case really needs at this point. I think this case, at this point needs an outside and an investigator. You know, look, I'm not a policeman.

I respect policemen for the work they do, and I know it's difficult and you don't become one overnight. And I don't say that at any time that that I carry with me a twenty year background in homicide investigation. But it's clear there is day to me, everywhere this case went wrong and everybody who should have been looked at, and all the lies that were told, and all the suspects who were let go when all the evidence pointed

to them. I mean due, there are reams and reams of evidence in this case and we were told there was nothing. So this time, I say, and outside investigative body needs to come into this case, take it over with nobody who used to be on this case involved in it, and they'll probably solve this strict and think of a year. I mean it's clear as day. All you need is tops outside of the system of of

of of what they've got at this point. And I say cops, I just mean policing entities, prosecutorial entities, et cetera. This there needs to be an outside investigative body come in and take over this case, and all the information is there. I can look at this case right now and tell you who would go to jail, but I can't for this case. But I can't do that legally because they haven't had their day in court, right So

that's the that's the problem. I can tell you. I can tell you exactly what happened in eighty percent of this case. There's there's some holes. There's some holes because the police haven't provided the information. And for instance, I have information like like polygraph results, and they say, here's the results of the polygraph and answer to the question this,

this person answered that, and it's all blacked out. So they say gave, They gave the they gave the FOIA documents over, but in key moments they redact, key key instances. They redacted the evidence, which is just a complete shoke. But they sometimes forgot, man, this is this is where human interaction comes into player, or human human error comes

into play. They sometimes forgot they redacted names. But if you scrub those if you really look through those documents, I mean, and you know, you eyeb all this stuff for hours and days and weeks and months, and in some of these years, suddenly you're like, wait a minute, I can't believe I skim this paragraph the first time because I thought it was something else. And there's the name they forgot to redact because it's buried in there. There's the name, and there's the name that they reacted

in forty five other instances. But here is now and now I know that's the name that they reacted. So like, you have to dig and dig and dig, but but it all makes sense. And on some instances, I would google information that was redacted, but there were enough phrases that I could start to like based on that phrase, dig deep and deep. So I'm digging through phrases that have been half redacted. But eventually, if you dig hard enough, you find. Oh. But the thing is why you're redacted.

You ask for the information, they do not give it to you until they're forced to, almost by gunpoint, and then they give it to you, and then they don't apologize for lying to you for twenty years. I mean, there's so many instances I can tell you that I know we're off topic here, but so many instances where the family members of the victims have been led astray, have been stone walled, have been just one lied to you?

And you say, I mean, answer that question, answer the question, why why lie to the family members of the victims forty years down the road at the very least, how about bring them in, make them sign an NDA since they already told you what they know, and then discuss the thing that they just told you. You know, do do it, you know, at at at risk of uh, you know, jail time or something for violating that NDA.

You know, I don't know. I don't know what police can do or can't do, but it seems to make sense if a family member says to you, I know what happened here, I know you with this suspect. In fact, they even read the documents. If you say to them, oh, I don't know what you're talking about, then then clearly, clearly, uh, there's other other dealings that play there and make to you who you say that to them? You know, you do not need to lie to to victims of murders

and promiside or and molestations and abductions. I mean, that's basically what they are. They're murdered. They're a victim by by circumstances. I mean, it didn't happen to them, but you know, you're talking about somebody's father, or somebody's sister or somebody you know, can't A Broad gave her brother thirty cents to go buy a candy. That was the last time she ever saw him. A lie. Are you're

gonna lie to her forty years later? You're gonna lie to her and say, no, Christopher Bush was never a suspect. You're gonna lie to her and say we don't know anything about Fox Island. You're gonna lie to her and say, I don't know Lamborghine doesn't look like a suspect. You're gonna lie to her like you're just gonna lie and lie in line, and all the documents seemed to provide the exact opposite information. Troubling Man.

in the beginning. It's a very very involved book. It's a fantastic book. I want to thank you very much, Jay Rubin Appleman for coming on and talking about it. For those of people might want to take a look. Do you have a website Facebook page for this? Tell us about that?

Barnes and Noble. It's in bookstores right now. You can just walk into your Barnes and Noble, especially in the mission areas. It's saturated with the book right now. And there's also a TV show coming up to sometime in the end of winter that is not called that. I'm not allowed to talk about the name or anything like that, but it will be out soon as well. And the book's also an audio, so if you're not a reader, you can just look for the audio.