THE GRIM SLEEPER-Christine Pelisek

the alleys of Los Angeles. The case of the Grim Sleeper is unforgettably singular, but also tells a wider story about homicide investigations in areas beset by poverty, gang violence, and despair about how a serial killer could continue his grizzly work for two decades, in part due to society's lack of concern for his chosen victims, and about the power and tenacity of those women's families and the detectives

who refused to let the case go cold. No one knows this story better than Pelisek, the reporter who followed it for more than ten years, based on extensive interviews, reportage, and information never really at least to the public. The Grim Sleeper captures the long bumpy road to justice in one of the most startling true crime stories of our generation. The book that we're featuring this seating is The Grim Sleeper The Lost Women of South Central with my special guest,

journalist and author Christine Pelisek. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Christine Pelisek, well play here. Thank you very much for joining me. This is congratulations on as we mentioned in the introduction, ten years of some incredible journalism. Congratulations. Let's start to write in this because this is an incredible involved tale and of course we as we mentioned, covering twenty years.

So let's start as you do in your book when you're speaking with coroner Assistant Chief Winter and you were a crime reporter for the LA Weekly and Alternative newspaper, tell us a little bit about your relationship with Chief Winter and what you were doing there in January two thousand and six, and you're a very very interesting conversation.

women that were found in La County. And it was between the years two thousand and two and two thousand and six, and the women were found in alley's dumpsters all over LA County and there were thirty eight women and they were you know, mixture of white women, African American women, Hispanic women, and their corners investigators had gone to the death scenes and had noticed, you know, there were so many of these women. So they decided to

put this task force together to look into it. But he told me that, you know, there were so many cases the corner's office, so they couldn't spend all their time doing it, so they only dedicated, you know, whenever they had a free moment to look into the cases

to see if any of the cases were linked. And so he told me that, and I asked him at the time whether I could get the list and look into it, and he said no, And so it went on for months and months and months before he finally actually gave me this list, and so I ended up started I started looking into it to see if I

could see any connections. And one of the things for him is that he tried to they tried to reach out to the law enforcement agencies, you know, La County Sheriff and you know, all the law enforcement agencies around

La LAPD, et cetera. And you know, they didn't really want to pay attention to the corner, you know, because it's really the corners there too, you know, figure out the cause of death, whereas the LAPD detectives and the Lake County Sheriff they actually try to solve the cases, and so they didn't really want the corner involved in their you know, in their cases. So he ended up giving me this list and from there I ended up contacting all the different law enforcement agencies that were involved.

There was a number of them, and I found that some of the cases weren't actually even homicides. Other ones, the case that had been solved it was like a guy that killed his girl friend, or you know, it was a girl who you know, was a drug overdose or something along those lines. But there were a lot of murders, and the bulk of them were murders of African American women in South Los Angeles. And so as I was going through and investigating, I came across a case.

It was like this thirty seventh case on the list, and it was a girl named Princess Berth and you she was a fifteen year old runaway out of Inglewood, which is a city sort of just next to Los Angeles and near the La Airport. And so I ended

up talking to the detective there. He took me a while before I actually was able to get a hold of them, and when I did, he actually told me that Princess's case was linked through DNA to a case in Princess's case, by the way, was two thousand and two, and her case was linked to a woman by the name of Valerie McCorvey. Who was killed in South Los Angeles in two thousand and three. She was thirty five year old mother of two and she was found dead

in an alleyway. And he had told me that those two cases were linked to a series of murders that happened in South Los Angeles back in the eighties, and the killer had shot his victims with a twenty five caliber done to the chest, and so all the cases

were linked. Well, the eighties cases were linked through ballistics to a twenty five caliber, and those cases in the eighties, there was seven of them, were linked through DNA to Princess's case and Valerie McCorvey's case, and so that's how I ended up finding out about it.

there was a lot of women getting murdered. You know, over that decade, there was hundreds of African American women that were found dead. And at the time, the police they started looking into the murders back in nineteen eighty four, and they actually thought it was the work of one killer,

and so they actually dubbed this. They started a task force and they called it the South Side Slayer task Force, and they called the alleged killer the suicide Slayer, and they thought that it was one person and responsible for all these murders of women in South Lost Angelis. But it turned out that it was more than one killer.

There was actually six serial killers operating at the same time in South Los Angeles and so but at first you know, they thought it was this one guy, even though like the ways that the women died were different, like some like the Grim Sleeper killer, he you know, shot the women in the chest, whereas some of the

other women were strangled, other ones were stabbed. So why they thought that the cases were lengthd I'm not I don't know, I'm thinking because they didn't really know a lot about serial killers at the time, even though there were in Richard Ramirez was you know, active in nineteen eighty five. You know, so there were some serial killers,

the Hillside strangler and things along those lines. But you know, so for whatever reason, they thought it was one But as they got this task force together and they had like forty or fifty detectives, you know, working from La County sheriff ONLYPD, and they realized that there was actually

more than one killer, and they actually did. They were able to catch two, you know, back in the eighties, and the other ones weren't caught until the LAPD started its cold case unit in the early two thousands, and then you know, a few other serial killers were unearthed because of it, including Lonnie Franklin Junior, the Grim Sleeper.

knew about them. And I just found that like extremely tragic. And in this case with the women, I mean, there was barely you know, except for the families, like they were really the only ones that seemed to care at the fact that these women were killed. I mean, back in the age I mean there was coverage, for sure of it, but I mean we didn't know who these

women were. And you know, when you compare it to some of the cases out there, you know, when you had like Natalie Holloway, I mean, everybody knows who Natalie Holloway is and what happened to Natalie Holloway. But you know, with these women, no one knew about them, and so I really wanted to find out more about the case. Number one. I wanted to you know, I was hoping that the case would be solved, but I also wanted to give the women a voice and let people know

who they were. And they weren't just you know, discarded, like you know, Lonnie discarded as victims like trash, and you know, I wanted people to know who they were. So that's kind of, you know, part of the reason why I, you know, got involved with it.

were sort of all hunting the same spot. And this place, you know, in the eighties, I mean, it was just ravaged by crack cocaine, drive by shootings. It was the start of gangs. So a lot of the gangs, like the Bloods and the crips and all of them were you know beginning, you know, around that time, and you know,

causing you know, huge disturbances and killing people. You know, So at the time it was like a very very like violent place, and you know, so it made it sort of easy for a serial killer to work and not get caught because the police were so focused on you know, you stop, like the gangs and you know, the drive by shootings and the drug war that they weren't really paying attention to these serial killers that were killing women and dumping their bodies in these alleys.

and she did braids and things like that. And then she ended up getting a job at a nightclub in Inglewood, and so you know, she worked, you know, nights, and she had lost her kids for I guess she had lost them for a few years. She had issues with drugs and so the kids were in foster care. But

at the time of her death. She was actually trying to get her kids back and was like within days of reuniting with her children when she was murdered, and she was kind of she was last seen she was at a friend's house and then she left to go

back to her place. Her and her girlfriend at the time got into a fight, and so she ended up staying the night over at a really good friend's house, and then she was going back up to her old apartment to a neighbor's house to give this woman twenty dollars that she owed her and she never made it back, and so the police suspect that she was probably hitch hiking, and then she was picked up by Lonnie Franklin and then he killed her and then you know, tossed her body in an alleyway.

was killed like a year later. I mean, you know, they looked at you know, Beatrice and you know, figured it with her, and I mean, you know, they they grilled her and all this other stuff and thought she was lying and the whole nine yards and so they were fixated on it, you know, and looked for the gun. You know, they knew she was killed by a twenty five caliber. They weren't able to find a gun, but

she was like the prime suspects. And it really wasn't until Henrietta was killed that they thought, oh, geez, maybe it wasn't you know, maybe it's not her, and so they moved on. And then at that point, when Henrietta Wright was murdered, a woman came out of the woodwork and basically said that it was her boyfriend who was responsible. And so then they completely focused on on.

And you know, on the weekend, they'd have two detectives working you know, four, five, six, seven, you know, sometimes eight cases. So they'd work on something for twenty four hours if they were lucky, and then they'd get another case that they'd have to work on. So they never had time, like, they hardly had time to follow up. And when they did have time to follow up, it could be like weeks later, you know, when everything had gone cold.

So it was a huge issue, you know, and it didn't matter if the homicide detectors actually wanted to solve the cases. They just weren't there, weren't the resources. And one detective told me he was like half the time he didn't even have like would rush around and he'd make these little notes. But they do these investigative reports. You're supposed to have, like, you know, when there's a homicide, you're supposed to have these investigative reports and put everything

in like everybody you interviewed and whatever. You're supposed to do it in a timely manner, so you know, so the next person who looks at the case will have the notes and whatever. And some of these detectives were telling me that sometimes it would take weeks before they'd actually write these investigative reports, you know, and they'd have to do it for memory and they'd forget details, and you know, it was a real mess and it made it,

you know, solving these cases really hard. And I think that when somebody would turn around and say, hey, so and so did it, I think they jumped on it, you know, and that's what they did in some of the cases unfortunately, you know, So you know, there was people that were arrested when they had nothing to do

with it. And you know, as you know, there was one case there was an LA County sheriff they believed was responsible, you know, because they found a nine millimeter in his car, not a twenty five caliber, but a nine millimeter and you know, he was charged and it wasn't until ballistics you know, basically exonerated him that you know, but even you know, years later, people still believe that

he had something to do with it, you know. And it turned out, you know, he died in two thousand and three, sort of in between Princess and Valerie, and you know, it was impossible for him to be the killer unless he was killing from the grave. So you know, it was pretty it was really hard. So it was a real combination of things going on, you know, factors you know, going on back then that made it very difficult to solve these cases.

kill Deborah Jackson. What else was similar the similar methodology or signature that was left at that crime scene.

were found in the alleyways. You know, all of them were found, you know, within a few miles of each other. You know, Deborah Jackson had you know, she was missing for longer, so so you know when they found her, you know, she was you know, absolutely bloated. But the similarities were, you know, basically the gun and how it was shot. It looked like the killer was shooting, was driving and then using his right hand and you know, basically reaching over to the passenger in the passenger seat

and then shooting the person in the chest. Because the wounds were almost exactly the same spot, like downward, you know, looking you know, so it looked like it was somebody you know, in a passenger side sort of leaning over and having contact and then shooting. Right now, to talk.

January tenth, nineteen eighty seven. And what happened was the LAPD dispatch got a call from somebody who basically was calling in that they saw a dead body or something in an alleyway and the caller a mail basically tells a dispatcher that, you know, somebody they saw somebody like take the body out of a blue and white van and actually gave the the license plate number of the van and said, you know, the person like dumped the body out and then you know, put a gas tank

on top of the person and then drove off. And so this was just after midnight, and so the lapd you know, went to the alleyway and actually found Barbara Ware underneath a gas tank and there was like garbage thrown on top of her. And they actually traced the van with the license plate number to this Cosmopolitan Church which was on nearby Normandy which was in like Normandy Avenue,

which wasn't like actually that far away. And so they go to the scene and they found Barbara Ware actually had curlers in her hair, and they found a multicolored curler in the parking lot. And so they go there and they go to the church and actually, which surprised them, they get there and it's after midnight or whatever. They realized that there's people actually in the church at the time. So they go into the church and they also the van was there. I forgot to mention the van was

actually there. So they touched the van and they realized the van's warm and everything. So they think, okay, well the killer you know, drove the van, you know, parts of it that the Cosmopolitan Church and either went in the church or took off. So they end up knocking on the door and there's like three women in there and a couple of kids, and they're having like a overnight

slumber party. And this cosmopolitan church had these you know, late night services, and some of the people actually lived there were some family members you know that were kind of poor and lived actually at the church, and on that particular night, they were actually having a slumber party, and so the police ended up bringing them down to the station and they actually thought there was like one kid who was like twenty one, twenty two and another one that was sixteen, and they kind of honed in

on the kids and did you know, gunshot residue tests on their hands, you know, to see if you know, one of them, you know, had killed Barbara Ware and it ended up being it was like, it ended up

being like a complete like red herring. And the police later learned, you know, decades later, when the LAPD started its eight hundred Task Force and you know, eventually arresting Lonnie Franklin and everything, that it was Lonnie Franklin that actually made that call, which was you know, very you know, very interesting, you know, but it was a real like it really you know, send the detectives off in a

different direction. And actually when the detectives started the eight hundred task worth, you know, they actually tracked down some of the cosmopolitan church members to try to find out if you know, any of these guys were involved. And they actually went to Macon, Georgia, and there was a guy who was like a pastor, you know, one of the guys that was involved in the church, one of

the ministers. They actually he was buried in the front lawn of this other like pastor's home, and they actually you know, took a sample, like they went in and they actually exhumed the body and took a sample and tested it with the crime scene evidence to see if he was the killer. And he wasn't. But you know, so they went you know, it was a real red herring,

you know, to go down that route. And they still actually the detectives actually never found out why Lonnie Franklin actually you know, chose to give that you know, like you know, that license plate number. They still don't know because I mean, as far as they could tell, he wasn't a member of the church, and nor was his wife.

So whether he ended up having a beef with somebody, you know, they don't know or if he happened to just be driving by, but they don't believe that he actually took the van because the family, like the church member, said that they had driven the you know, the van pretty much all night, but there was a period where they were praying and everything. But it wasn't during the time where you know, the van was used, you know,

in the murder of Barbara Ware. So it's a real puzzle even to this day exactly why he chose the cosmopolitan church.

fighting back serial murders. And then you talk about March twenty ninth, nineteen eighty seven and another self central woman found dead and again shot with a twenty five caliber pistol. Tell us a little bit about what they find and if they can progress in this investigation with this case.

taken over the case. Once Barbara Ware was killed, the case was actually transferred over to robbery homicide because they realized, well they probably realized beforehand, but they realized that the cases were linked. And so a couple of other detectives from Robbery Homicide, which is like the elite you know unit of the LAPD that handles like serial killer cases and high profile cases, they actually took over the case

and so they started investigating the case. You know. But you know, once again, you know, they you know, had issues and you know Margaret Prescott, I mean she had press conferences all the time, you know, and I mean it was interesting because the police would give out, you know, as much information as you know, I mean, they didn't give out a lot of information. They didn't want to give out, you know, what was going on in their investigation.

And actually it wasn't until much later that the press realized. And even then, like it wasn't even like completely confirmed really that you know, Lonnie Frank England, like these twenty five caliber killings were the work of a serial killer. You know, so they just had you know, it didn't matter for them. I mean, it was just so difficult for them to solve it. So everything that they tried to do, it just didn't work out very well.

another room, and she said she heard a fight. She looked out the window. Henrietta Wright goes running out the you know, running out of the door. The two guys end up chasing down Henrietta. Right, they jump her, you know, one of the guys shoots Henrietta right. She says, she claims that she saw it. You know, they dragged her, you know, body dumped it and then took off and the whole bit. And so the cops like jumped on it.

And they actually had a preliminary hearing, like Dennis Well Pinky Dennis Pintney, he was actually arrested and they had a preliminary hearing, which is basically a hearing where you show the proceeders will show evidence to see if there's enough evidence basically to take something to trial. And so they had this and she actually testified. So Shelley Brown actually testified and said, yes, I saw him, and this

is what happened and all this other stuff. And so he was sitting in jail, you know, waiting for his trial and then all of a sudden, she comes forward like months later and tells one of the robbery homicide detectives that she lied and that it wasn't you know, Pinky, it was actually her other boyfriend, a guy named Jimmy Lewis.

And so she said Jimmy Lewis basically told her to lie and to finger Pinky, and she did it because he had threatened, allegedly threatened her and that he was going to kill her and her family and everything like that. So then she completely changed her story and blamed it on Jimmy Lewis, and so the cops focused their attention

on Jimmy Lewis. And so, you know, I mean, this happened on you know a few times you know in the in the investigation where you know, people were saying, oh, it could be so and so, like in the Bernina Sparks case, a woman came forward and said that she thought for another guy who she saw, you know, fighting with Bernica Sparks on the night that she died, and so they focused on him and it turned out he

had nothing to do with it as well. So there was you know, there was quite a few you know, guys thrown in in jail for at least, you know, temporarily, and sometimes longer, you know, because they were fingered in these crimes that they didn't commit.

the time, anyway, very rarely. You know, any crime was mostly students around there, and Karen was walking with her boyfriend and got shot by there was a gang. There was a fight between two gangs and she ended up getting shot, and so it was just you know, there was you know, a lot of money put into it, there was a lot of resources putting into it, and all this other stuff. But you know, Lucretia Jefferson died and you know, it didn't make the news at all.

And she was killed. Her body was found in South Los Angeles and actually La County Territory in Lenox and it didn't make the news at all.

they're just a really good family, you know. And she had two brothers that just doated on her. Well, she's three brothers that doted on her, and another older sister that doated on her. And she was excelled in school. She did really, really well. She was really into horseback riding. She was really into figure skating, and her father, like anything that she wanted to do, you know, the father put her into horseback riding. Yes, she owned horses himself,

had her you know, taking figure skating lessons. And she was this precocious, like really decent kid who loved people, and she'd always her parents would always say that she'd always bring friends home and you know, if they were having problems with their family, she'd ask her parents if they could stay over the you know, for the night. And so she was always feeding people and she loved everybody, and you know, that was just sort of her personality.

And just before she died, actually she was dating this guy named Ronnie Lewis, and you know, she was, you know, really madly in love with him. He was older, he was married and had a couple of kids, but was separated you know at the time, and you know, she was hoping to have you know, future with him, and I know, I mean I spoke to him and he just still breaks down, you know when he talks about her. I mean, he adored her. He just you know, she

was just this wonderful kid. And she started getting involved in drugs like about a year or so, you know, before she died. And you know, even though you know, she came from this you know good you know background and everything, and I mean her father was trying to do everything in order to you know, get her sort of away from you know, that kind of life. But you know, at the time, it was just so unbelievably prevalent. You know, it was just it affected everybody, and she

fell victim to drugs. And on the night that she died, I mean, she saw her dad. Her dad was like on the couch and she kind of and she woke them up and told him she was going to the store and asked him if he wanted anything, and he said, no, you know, and so she left and she was you know, last scene she was at a store and one of the neighbors actually saw her getting into a orange colored Pinto.

And the Pinto became pivotal because Mary Lowe, one of the other victims, was also seen getting into a orange Pinto, and Amitria Washington, the sole survivor in nineteen eighty eight, in November, told police that her killer, i mean, her

attacker was driving a orange Pinto. And Monique was found in September of eighty eight and in Nitria was attacked November eighty eight, and so that Pinto ended up becoming you know, sort of you know, a big piece of evidence, you know, for them to you know, try to find out, you know what, you know, who this person was and

all this other stuff. And of course they never were able to find the Pinto and all that stuff, but there was definitely, you know, they made an effort to try to track down the Pinto, but they never, you know, were able to do it. But you know, Monique went by her her family called her moo and moo cow, and you know every day of the hearings, I mean, the hearings went on for six years after Lonnie was caught, and her parents went to every single one of them.

You know, maybe they missed one if they weren't feeling well, but they were there the entire time, from like the beginning to the end. And when I talked to Porter, when I found out about the case and two thousand and six, you know, I interviewed him and it was like, you know, Monique had died the day before. I mean, he blamed himself and it was just, you know, he was just in tears. You know, it's like literally that

she died the day before. He you know, he never got over it, and you know he'll never get over what happened.

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himself and how he operated. Tell us what they did find out, and especially interesting about the reference to the polaroids.

you know, just says a few words to her. She kind of ignores them, and she starts walking away, and he actually, you know, drives up to her and you know, starts talking to her, and you know, basically, you know, tries to have like little bits of conversation with her or whatever, and you know, she kind of ignored him or whatever, and then he kept on rambling on, and then she decided, you know whatever, he seemed harmless enough, so she started you know, talking to him, and then

you know, he asked her where she was going, and she was going to a party. And then you know, he offered to give her a ride, and she you know, said no. And finally, you know, she said, like, one of the things that struck out stuck out to her was the fact that he seemed really harmless, you know, and she kind of thought he looked like he was dressed like in kind of a mechanics outfit, you know, and then thought that, you know, it's kind of nerdy,

you know. And he wasn't like a threat to her, you know, she didn't feel threatened in any way like he seemed kind of, you know, just sort of oh shucks, you know, charl I'll give you a ride, and you know, can I hang out with you? You know, So she wasn't like afraid of him at all, and so you know, she didn't have she didn't have to go very far, and so she thought, Okay, he seems harmless enough or whatever.

So she gets in the car with him and they started draw and then he tells her that he wants to stop at his uncle's house, you know, to pick up some money, and it's on the way and whatever. So she was like sure, whatever, and so he you know, sort of pulls over. He goes to eighty first and Western, just this house just on the corner, and pulls in and she's in the car and she basically said, you know, I'm only going to wait, you know, five ten minutes, and if he doesn't come back, she's going to get

out and walk off. And so he goes off, and he goes it's a white house, and then he goes to the side of the house and looks like he's talking to somebody. And then he comes back, you know, five minutes later, and he drives off and he only went which is really interesting. He only drove like about a block and then turned right. And she said that, you know, his demeanor had completely changed. He went from being like real friendly to all of a sudden being

like really nasty. And then he called her the name Brenda, and he started saying, like, you know, what, are you dogging me? For Brenda, and she was like, what are you talking about, Like, I'm not my name's not Brenda, and you know, he kept saying, you know, your dogging me and all this other stuff, and you know, she was trying to like explain, like what are you talking There was apparently there was a prostitute by the name of Brenda that you know, sort of walked the street,

you know, the streets around that area. So she thought, actually she might have he might have mistook her for, you know, Brenda the prostitute, and so she said that within like a second of them, you know, sort of arguing that, he just like pulled a gun out and he just shot her in the chest and she didn't really you know, know what was happening at first. And she said that when she finally kind of realized what was going on, like she started saying, like what do you what's going on?

she she passed out again. And woke up to that the zing like of a polaroid and like the flash of a polaroid, and he had taken a photo of her, and she sort of went in and out of consciousness, and then at one point she remembers him like pulling over and then you know, getting out and like sort of pushing her out of the car and then driving off, and so you know, she was able to you know, tell police that you know, this was sort of you know, this is exactly what happened, that you know, he was

taking you know, a photo of her. She didn't know how many, but she remembered distinctly that it was like a polaroid camera. And so after she went I mean she was she actually staggered like four or five blocks

to her friend's house. Like how she was able to do that with a bullet to the chest, you know, GODALONEI no, but she actually made it to her friend's house and like banged on the friend's door, and the friend actually wasn't home, and so she kind of fell into a fetal position, and the friend came home like ow later and found her there and ended up you know, calling for an ambulance, and she was put into one of those pressure suits because she had lost so much

blood and was like rushed to the hospital and she almost died, and she was like, you know, within you know, seconds or minutes of dying or whatever. But once she was okay, you know, she was able to take the detectives to the place where you know, he stopped and he said he was stopping to you know, see his uncle.

And so they actually went to the house. But the house was owned by a guy named Othus White, like this older man, and so they knew that Othus White obviously wasn't the killer because she described the guy as somebody in his thirties, sort of like a medium build, short hair, you know, with a pockmarked face. So she was able to you know, you know, they were able to get more of a description, you know, of of him.

And then they knew because of what happened with Monique, the yarnge pinto that you know, this is the same guy. So they knew, you know, they were looking for a thirty year old, you know, African American guy with medium bill, with a pockmark s face, you know who you know, like to use polaroid cameras. So but still, I mean that was still like a needle in a haystack, you know, trying to track down, you know, somebody fitting that description.

But you know, they were certainly able to you know, finally they actually had somebody who saw you know, saw the killer. So you know, unfortunately it didn't really you know, it didn't work out in the end until years later.

one you know, just started working on other cases. And it really wasn't until like the LAPD started this cold case unit in the early two thousands to look at some of these old cases, you know, back dating back to like the sixties, you know. So they had this grant from the California Apartment of Justice to look at this old you know, crime scene evidence in murder and

rape cases. And so a detective, one of the detectives that was in the cold case unit actually remembered, you know, the series of murders that happened in the eighties, you know, you know, the work of the Southside Slayer and the work of the twenty five caliber killer, the Grim Sleeper actually was known as the twenty five caliber killer back then.

And so he ended up looking into the cases and you know, started putting in the DNA, like getting the lab to you know, looking at the evidence to see if there was any you know, like rape kits or anything left and then have those kits tested to see if there was any DNA, and if there was any DNA, they would upload it into the and you know, like the CODIS data bank like the local state, and then the felon you know, databank to see if the killer was actually in any of these data banks, which would

mean that the killer had been in prison, because in these data banks, it's all you know, everyone that's in there has committed selmies and are in prison basically, And so they started he started doing that, and so he put in you know, for this testing, and then all of a sudden, you know, he started getting all these hits.

You know, So these cases, you know, Princess Bertha Mew and Valie McCorvey were then linked to a number of the cases in the eighties, and not all the cases were linked through DNA because some of the women were so badly decomposed that they weren't there was no DNA. They knew they were linked because of the ballistic testing, but they weren't able to confirm a DNA match because

of the fact that of the decomposition. So they started seeing that, you know, he started seeing like, oh my god, you know, these cases you know, are linked, and I mean he knew about the ballistics matches and whatever, and so they started an investigation, you know, looking into into it. And so of course the cases were uploaded into the data bank because they were looking to find you know, hoping that the killer was in jail or had them swabbed, you know, for his DNA in the past, but no,

he wasn't. So they knew that the killer, it was the same killer because he was leaving a saliva on most of the women's breasts, but they didn't have a name because he wasn't in that Sellen data bank. So they you know, they had that pro you know, that

was the big problem. So you know, they had to like basically they started investigating, and they started looking back at you know, getting the murder books, you know, back from the eighties and looking at all the suspects and then surreptitiously, you know, like following around suspects trying to get DNA and so you know, that's what you know, the detective you know that started working on the case is doing because he went back and you know, went back to like Jimmy Lewis, one of the suspects in

the eighties, and went back and found out that you know, some of the other suspects, like one of them had been in jail for one hundred and twenty seven or sorry, was sentenced one hundred and twenty seven years and went in prison at the end of the eighties, you know, end of the eighties. So he obviously wasn't the killer. And then another one of the ones that they suspected

he was dead. He got killed in a shootout with a armed truck driver, you know, so they knew it wasn't him, you know, So he was combing through the murder books, you know, trying to find, you know, any witnesses or anyone, you know, any suspects that they could you know, try to get a DNA swab from.

Year's Day. And she was in a plastic a big, huge black plastic garbage bag and you know, tied up with a twist, you know, a twist tie in the whole nine yards and the guy, he thought, you know, it was a can of you know, a bunch of recyclables, actually made a hole in the bag and you know, a hand comes out of the bag and you know, he jumps out of the garbage dumpster and rushes off and calls the police. And so the police came and

they found her. You know, they actually were able to They brought the entire dumpster to the corner's office and you know, she was her body was processed and everything like that, and so they were you know, the criminalists looked for DNA and this incredibly smart criminalist actually swabbed the twist tie on the garbage bag and so it

was all put in, you know, like the DNA. And she was found nude in this garbage bag, and they actually thought that the killer had you know, she either had taken a shower beforehand or he had washed her because you know, they didn't really find you know that much you know, like DNA on her body. They found some you know, DNA, but it wasn't like right on for her body. So they ended up putting in for testing.

And it comes back the twist tie. The killer's DNA is found on the twist tie of the garbage bag, and so it was linked that twist tie and was found in May. They well, it was actually the end of April they realized that the DNA that was found on the twist tie actually matched the killer, the Grim Sleeper killer. So at that point the upper like another

detective found out about it. Actually this guy named Dennis Killcoin, and so they all had you know, like LAPV brass like they had this big discussion about, you know, what's going on and what happened and everything, and so they actually decided to start a task force, which they ended up calling the eight hundred Task Force. And that was after the name on the door because they had room eight hundred, So they called it the eight hundred Task Force.

And so he had like eight detectives Detective kill Coin with the guy in charge. He was a supervisor, so he had eight detectives you know, working for him looking for the killer. So that was like sort of the first time there was like this real big push to you know, track down this killer. So it was a big moment then, you know, for them, you know, but you know, they also had a lot of twists and turns and things like that and also had issues trying to solve it.

the five hundred thousand dollars reward that's issued here. So this this case is getting an incredible we haven't talked about wow, I mean the obvious media up attention to this, but also that the three sketches of the Grim Sleeper based on a Nutra Washington's description, uh tell us a little bit about some of the initiative and the turnaround in terms of mindset from kill Coin as well well the LAPD.

a serial killer. And you know, I ended up, you know, I found out again that you know, sorry that Geneesie Peters was killed, and so you know, I wanted to write another story about it, and I you know, really pushed to talk to the detectives and everything like that, and I finally was able to speak to kill Coin about it, and you know, they, you know, he thought, what, you know, because most of the killings were happening in like a small area in South Los Angeles, that they

didn't want to alert the community and scare other people and all this other stuff. And then they also didn't want the killer. They thought that if they announced that they were looking into it, the killer would go underground and all this other stuff. But I, you know, I just thought that it was important that the story, you know, go out there. I mean, people should know that there's a serial killer out there, you know, especially in South Los Angeles. You know a lot of people walk on

the streets wandering around and things like that. But they had you know, so at first, you know, they kind of wanted to keep it on the down low. But

I ended up doing a story about it. And so once my story came out, there was a lot more you know, coverage, and the LAPD started doing sort of press conferences and things like that, and they ended up getting a lot of clues and things like that, and so you know, they were actually at first, you know, they didn't want to do the press conferences, and then after they were like constantly doing the press conferences, you know, to try to get more people to call, try to

find more clues, and you know, so you know, they got there was thousands, if not you know, yeah, I think like a thousand or so clues, and so they went, you know, anyone, any clue they got, they would go and try to you know, get a swab and the whole bit. So, you know, they really put in a

lot of effort. In two thousand and eight, in May, they actually tried this familial DNA test, which is they knew, you know, the killer had his DNA, you know, they knew, you know, they knew he wasn't in the code of data bank, and so what they were trying to do was to find a relative of the killer who was in the data bank, you know, like a brother or

an uncle or a cousin. So they actually did this familial DNA test, which is done by the California Department of Justice, and you know, you have to apply for it and the person, you know, it has to be a situation where you know, you know, like a serial killer situation where you know, the public is at risk and everything like that. And so they decided to do this test, and but it came back nothing, and so

you know, there was no match to it. And they finally did it again in twenty and ten, and the data bank had grown four hundred thousand by that point, and at that point when they did the test, it hit on a twenty eight year old Los Angeles resident named Christopher Franklin. And Christopher Franklin was too young to be the killer because he would have been in diapers

when you know, Deborah Jackson was killed. So they knew that Christopher Franklin was related to the killer, and so they ended up doing an investigation to try to figure out, you know, what relative of Christopher's it was, and they came across Lonnie Franklin Junior, who lived on Aby First and Western, three doors down from Osus White's house, and he lived in the epicenter basically of where all the murders took place.

he was born in la in nineteen fifty two. His mom was Ruby and Lonnie Senior was his father. Tell us a little bit about what you found out about Lonnie Franklin and as everyone else finds out. But what do you find out about Lonnie Franklin and his background?

you know, Lannie was great. You know, they knew, you know, he'd always fix things around the neighborhood. He was like the fixer upper in the neighborhood. Like if you had an issue with your car, like if you needed new break so Lonnie would give you a really good deal, especially if you were a woman. You know, he was always helpful. And he was helpful to like older people, you know, if they had problems with you know, getting

something fixed, he'd do it for free. And you know, one of his things he was like obsessed with women. He had like this absolute unquenchable you know, lust for women, and you know, he had numerous you know girlfriends throughout his life. I mean he married his wife, you know, back in the late seventies and carried on, by the least thought relationships you know, with different women over that

period of time. Like when he got caught, he was you know, a grandfather, you know, still married, living with his wife, and you know, they had two kids, and and those kids had grandkids. You know, I've had kids, you know, and so but he had these you know, he just was obsessed with women, and there was some of his friends had talked about how he had nicknames for you know, some of the girls, like big Legs

and you know all this other stuff. And he'd show his friends like photos of you know women, you know, like naked women. Like one guy actually testified and he said that, you know a day didn't go by that Lonnie wasn't showing him like photos of like naked women and things like that. He'd always address you know, some of the girls like they knew he like picking up you know, prostitutes and stuff like that, and you know,

he'd have he'd always call them my girl. And you know, sometimes he'd go around, even though you know he's married and all this other stuff, he'd go around with girls and they'd be hanging out with him and stuff, and he didn't seem to have any problem whatsoever and didn't feel you know, showed them off and was happy about it.

And you know, one of his big things, like one of the detectives I talked to, had told me that he thinks that Lonnie, like you know, I was asking him, like what he thought about, you know, when Lonnie got involved in the murders and everything and what prompted it and things like that, and he had said that, you know, Lonnie was in the military. He left school after he got into a fight and joined the military. And he

was like a cook when he was there. And he was out one night with a couple of his army buddies and they actually tried to pick up a woman, a German woman, and they actually grabbed her and tried to force her in their car. But the woman was able to get away. But there was another woman who wasn't Her name was Ingrid. Wasn't so lucky, and Ingrid was actually ang raped by you know, Lonnie and two

and the two army guys. And you know, she described she actually was at the trial and talked about her encounter,

you know, with Lonnie and the two guys. But it was interesting because, you know, Lonnie denied that he he raped her and had basically said that she wanted him, and you know, he the only reason he was with her was because she was you know, she told him how much she liked him and everything like that, and it came out like, you know, basically the woman you know, they threatened her with a knife and everything like that,

and she kind of just played along. And you know what, Lonnie was trying to convince everyone that he was the innocent one, and you know, she wanted to have something, you know, she wanted to be with him and all this other stuff. Meanwhile, you know, she had a knife to her throat. You know, so they think that he's

kind of his sexual eving. He was pretty young at the time, he was like twenty one, and these other guys were more of the aggressors than Lonnie, because they even said that Lonnie actually wasn't as aggressive as the other two and so he actually got a lesser sentence, like and he didn't. All of them got tossed out of the military, but the other two got dishonorable discharges, but he didn't. And so he was actually able to come back to Los Angeles and you know, get a job.

I mean, he started off, you know, he worked, he did a number of different you know, sort of jobs here and there, but he got a job at the LAPD Central Division as a gas station attendant and he worked there for about a year and then actually got a job as a sanitation worker with the Department of Sanitation, and so he was driving trucks around in South Los Angeles and I think that's where he actually got the intricate knowledge of like the alleyways and all that other

stuff in Los Angeles, you know, and they found actually when they did a search on his home, they actually found photos of him, you know, at landfills and things like that. I mean, he kept his job with the Sanitation department for a number of years, but throughout like it was almost fort of the moment he started working there,

plaining about on duty injuries like that. He claimed they had rotator cuff injuries, and you know, he'd be evaluated and some guys were like, no, we don't believe it, and other ones would be like yes, you know, and it ended up that, like at the end of the eighties, he ended up getting like a pension and he went on disability and when he got arrested, he was getting like seventeen hundred dollars a month from the city of Los Angeles in pension and he actually still gets it

today and he you know, probably gets around two grand a months.

couple of victims. One of the victims he called her fat, and another one he said she was but ugly, and you know, he was just it was, you know, he just found it almost he didn't seem to be bothered by it, you know, at all. And then he'd make these little wise cracks, you know, every once in a while.

And the only time he seemed to be irritated, in my opinion, was when they brought up the fact that he was, you know, picking up girls on the street, because at one point when they were following him, he left the house at like two o'clock in the morning, was on you know, fortieth and Western, and there was two girls, you know, street walkers on the side and he pulled up, and so they were actually following him, so they saw what he was doing, and so they

brought it up during the interrogation and he denied it, and he was like, no, I have a girlfriend and all this other stuff, and so that was when he really was the only time like he really got miffed was when you know, they tried to accuse him of you know, picking up girls on the street. And it was funny because during the trial it was the same thing like when they were they brought up his girlfriend at the time when he was arrested, and then he got irritated there too, and he was like, it's not

my girlfriend. And it was like he was just more concerned about like his wife finding out that he had a girlfriend, and then his girlfriend finding out that he was picking up hookers. You know, he didn't seem to be bothered.

And they talked to him for about forty five minutes or so before he finally just said, I guess I need an attorney, and so you know, that was kind of that. And from what I can gather from what the detectives told me, because they listened in on his phone calls, like when he was in the LA jail, and he you know, he denied everything when he talked to like friends, family, whatever. You know, it wasn't him.

The cops set him up and you know they'd ask him about, you know, how come you had so many photos because when you know, the police caught him, they found you know, they did a search of his home and they found hundreds of photos of naked women and

all this other stuff. And he claimed that you know, was you know, he fixed cars and they were left in the cars and he just had them and you know they weren't his, and you know, he had like every sort of excuse in the book after you know, it was somebody else's fault.

he did. And you know he's always talk about it, and he you know, and one of the things, actually, there was one thing that was actually kind of critical was Ray Davis remembered this one occasion where he went he saw Lonnie's van parked at a friend's house, and he saw Lonnie, you know, sort of outside of the van.

So he pulled up, and you know, Lonnie was all irritated, like what are you doing here kind of thing or whatever, and so he went to talk to Lonnie and he saw this girl in the back of the van just sar for a few minutes or whatever, and that was that. And he said, you know, as the years went by or whatever, you know, when they had these billboards up looking for the killer the five hundred thousand dollars award.

The billboards also had the photos of all the victims, and he had gone he had seen the billboard, and then he was at the police station. They had sort of a smaller billboard in there, and he looked and he realized that one of the girls, you know, was familiar. And he realized, you know, later he kind of put two and two together that the girl that was with Lonnie he believed was Genisha Peters, which was his you know,

Lonnie's last known victim. And so he you know, when Lonnie got arrested, he ended up talking to the police about it and said that you know, he recognized, you know, genishe from the neighborhood and remembered that she was the girl that was in Lonnie's car that time. But I think for the jury, the jurors, you know, the DNA evidence and the ballistic evidence was just so overwhelming. I think that you know, that really in a lot of ways sealed the deal for.

interesting tell us about what the verdict was. And then as we mentioned, I thought it was very very profound and very visual. Was Ingrid w forty years later coming during the penalty phase.

you know, was the killer. But the prosecution was trying to say that the constant was Lonnie's DNA, you know, whereas it wasn't constant with the you know, the other DNA found on some of the other women's all, you know, each women had different DNA. But anyway, so Lonnie was

found guilty and they had the penalty phase. In California they have the death penalty, and so they brought on the prosecution actually presented four other cases that they believed that Lonnie was linked to, and so presented that evidence. There was two women had gone missing. They never found their bodies, but they were last known in the area of Lonnie's house, and they found their identification in Lonnie's home, along with Janisia Peters photo and Initria Washington's the polaroid

of a Nitria Washington. So they were pretty much convinced that those two women were victims. There was another victim in eighty four who ended up being like sort of the very first victims like that we know of anyway, this woman, Sharon the Smute. She was killed in nineteen eighty four, found in a gas station, in a garbage a dirty bathroom. And another victim, Georgia M. Thomas, was killed in two thousands. So the gap, the thirteen and a half year gap, was actually sort of it wasn't

as big it was ten years. But although detectives still don't think that he stopped during that time. But also so they presented test evidence that Lonnie was linked to those crimes and also to one of the victims sharing the smuke, the bullet that was found in her. It ended up that they found one gun in Lonnie's house and the gun was used to kill Geniesha and Sharon the smuke. So but for you know, what choices that the prosecutions made, they didn't actually charge Lonnie for the cases,

but they believed that he was responsible. So they also flew in Ingrid from Germany, and it was forty years and you know, when she had been attacked by Lonnie, and so she flew in with her husband and actually testified to what happened, and it was very she was scared, absolutely terrified, you know, and she had never been to the US before and had basically, you know, kept what happened to her pretty much a secret. Her you know, mother didn't really want her to talk about it, you know,

she didn't. She later told her you know, daughter and grandchild, but it's not a story that's known at all in Germany. And you know, she didn't want to come at first, and then decided that she did want to, like face, you know, Franklin and testified and of course, you know, he you know, he didn't look at her, and she

kind of looked at him briefly. Her husband was sitting with her, you know, on the witness stand when she when she spoke, and it was just a really like just unbelievable moment that you know, after so long she was there and you know, she was really you can you know, she was shaking, you know, my you know, she had good reason too, for sure, So it was

a real powerful moment. And uh so, the defense the penalty phase went on for like, you know, for a few weeks, and at that point, the jury that found Lonnie guilty of you know, convicting him of the murders also found him you know, they basically said that he should get the death penalty, and they recommended the death penalties to the judge, and the judge actually sentenced him in August of last year, in twenty sixteen, to death.

And so about ten days after she sentenced him, he was taken to San Quentin's death Row, where he is currently until you know, he dies.

go through the appeals process. And you know, the you know, these cases, they're looked at very closely, and so any case that the death penalty case takes longer to prosecute, and the judges are very careful that the cases don't go back on appeal, and that was partly, you know, the reason why it took six years for them to actually try this case, and you know, it ended up being like just an absolute you know, incredibly frustrating for family members because you know, for a lot of them,

it took twenty five years before you know, Lonnie Franklin was caught and then you know, they had to wait another six years before he finally went to trial, and you know, during that time, you know, some of the family members passed away, and you know that was really upsetting for you know, some of the mothers you know, had died and so they never you know, were able to see you know justice for their you know, for their family and for their daughter, and so you know

that was something that was really really upsetting for you know, the family members that would go you know, every couple of days, and so you know, it was just it was dreadful for them to wait, and you know, we thought that it wasn't going to you know, it was going to take longer and longer, and i mean some of the case there's one guy who's actually in jail right now and it's almost been ten years. It's a

definalty case. So you know, they just take longer, you know, because the judges are just way more concerned about the case, you know, getting tossed out on appeal, so you know, they give the defense attorneys more leeway to investigate and and things like that, and as a result, like it just became like really a contentious thing. I mean, there was no love lost between the prosecution and the defense.

There was you know a lot of bickering and a lot of issues you know, going on there that you know, stalled the case and things like that. So it wasn't you know, it was for he wasn't a pleasant six years waiting for him to go to trial.

of fixated on it. I know that he when you know, they were putting up photos, autopsy photos and things like that, and you know, one of the detectives told me, I couldn't see where I was from where I was sitting. But he had said that, and so did actually one of the brothers, Manie Alexander, one of the brothers, had said that they'd catch him like looking at photos, you know, like when the girl's photos like of the breast and

stuff like that. They'd catch him like, you know, peak over, you know, looking up at the screen and stuff like that, you know, but most mostly he just sat there and stared. You know, he didn't you know, he had no It didn't seem like, you know, he had a care in the world. Really. I mean, he must have been I'm assuming he was, you know, scared, but he certainly, you know,

didn't show it. And the only one time he seemed to be animated was when his girlfriend showed up one day and he looked up and saw her, and it must have you know, obviously he knew she was going to be in the courtroom because he immediately when he walked out when they brought him out, he immediately looked up to this corner of the courtroom and looked at her.

But besides that, I mean, you know, when he got the when he was convicted, you know, when the you know, in June, he didn't do anything, and you know, he shook his one of his legs, you know, he kind of twitched a little bit with one of his legs. But besides that, he just kind of got up and you know, walked away. I didn't see him sleeping or anything like that, but he just didn't seem to be affected by it at all.

in this story. It's we don't have any more time, but it's interesting to tell the readers that about the interviews that you got from and pardon me and e Tria Washington, very very interesting and all of the dedicated detectives to Shepherd and Coulter and kill Coin and in the end a detective Dupree, a black detective that grew up in South Central It was responsible at the end, who if people I've heard of end of Watch starring

Jake Gillenthal, basically based around Detective Dupree's life. So very very interesting. The most important thing that you took away from this, I'd say the most the biggest thing that you discovered in this lengthy investigation and book project.

knows as the family members. And it was really interesting because I mean there was no love lost between the family members and the police at first, you know, but towards the end, it was all, you know, like a big family, you know, the prosecutors and the detectives and the family members, you know, and when they got that guilty verdict, you know, I want to to the hallway and they were all hugging each other, and you know, as much as they were all so different, they all

had that same goal to you know, find you know, to have justice for the family members, and so it was like a really it was you know, obviously tragic the situation, but it was really amazing just to see how everybody came together was in this common goal to

you know, find justice. And it was really a wonderful thing to see because you know, a lot of the detectives were from you know, different backgrounds as the family members and as well as the prosecutors, and to know that they all came together to do this and you know, there was it was it was really amazing actually, and I was really proud to be able to witness that and to be able to get such incredible access to you know, the case with the detectives and the prosecutors,

and so you know, I was really you know, we cappy that they trusted me and allowed me you know, you know, access to them and especially with the family members, because you know, that was something that was still really you know, difficult for them and for them to you know, talk to me about it. It was just and tell their family, you know, their daughter's story. It was very overwhelming, and you know, I was so happy they did that.

You can actually get it even in Canada too, so if you go to they have it in chapters in Canada and the other I feel indigo right absolutely.