Okay, round two.
Name something that's not boring.
Laundry, a book club, computer solitaire.
Huh oh, sorry, we were looking for Chumbu Casino.
Chum.
That's right, chumbucasino dot com as over one hundred casino style games joined today and playing for free for your chance to redeem some serious prizes.
Chum.
Chumbacasino dot com noverccess'd by lockagey plus ters the conditions of the bus website retails.
Hello, it is Ryan and I was on a flight the other day playing one of my favorite social spin slot games on chumbacasino dot com. I looked over at the person sitting next to me, and you know what they were doing. They were also playing Chumpa Casino. Coincidence, I think not everybody's loving having fun with it. Chumba Casino's home to hundreds at casino style games. You can play for free anytime, anywhere, even at thirty thousand feet. So sign up now at Chumbuckcasino dot com to claim
you're free. Welcome bonus. That's Chumbu Casino dot com and live the Chumba Lane.
No, we'd necessary DVOD wherever if I lost in terms of it since eighty plus. With Lucky Land Slots, you can get lucky just about anywhere.
Dearly beloved, we are gathered here today. Has anyone seen the bride and groom?
Or sorry, we're here.
We were getting lucky in the limo and we lost track of time.
No Lucky Land casino with cash prizes that add up quicker than he guess registered.
In that case, I pronounce you lucky. Play for free at Lucky Landslots dot com.
Daily bonuses are waiting.
No purchase necessary board We're prohibited by long eighteen plus terms and conditions applying see website for details.
Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.
I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse.
With family, canolis and spins mean everything. Now you want to get mixed up in the family business. Introducing the Godfather at Champagasino dot com. Test your luck in the shadowy world of the Godfather slot.
Someday I will call upon you to do a service for me.
Play the Godfather now at Chumpa casinot Welcome.
To the Family vdW group. Now perch is necessary if we were privateed by loss he terms and conditions eighteen plus.
You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Good evening. On a sunny September morning in nineteen thirty six, men entered the Lincoln National Bank in Nebraska's capital City, armed with revolvers and Thompson some machine guns. In eight minutes, they emerged with more than two point seven million dollars, the largest take of any bank heist in history. A nationwide search for the bandits would lead Nebraska authorities through the rough gangland streets of Chicago and East Saint Louis
and deep into the heart of the Capone organization. The Great heightst not only chronicles the search for the bandits and the trials that followed, but the incredible story of how they got the money back. The book that we're profiling this eving is called The Great Heist, The Story of the Biggest bank Robbery in History. With my special guest journalist and author Jeff MacArthur. Welcome back to the program, and thank you for greeing this interview.
Jeff MacArthur, thank thank you for having me, Dan, I really appreciate being here.
Thank you very much. Another incredible tale with an incredible cast of characters. So let's get to my favorite question. How did you come to write this story. I know you look for incredible stories, but tell us where you live, where you reside, tell us about your father, your grandfather, tell us about the incredible story behind the story of the Great Sure.
Yeah, well, you know, I'm from Lincoln, Nebraska, where it happened, and it was a little known even there. I mean at the time it was it was front page news and everything, but it's sort of been a forgotten story. And the only way I learned about it was my father and grandfather, who were working together actually on the
case that my other book was about. My grandfather just sort of one day casually turned to my father and said, you know, the largest bank robbery in history was here on Lincoln and it was Alcoholm's long lost brother who helped to get the money back, and my dad and his internet wisdom just went is that right? And kind of went back to what he was doing and never
asked anything more about it. And then he casually told me about it years later after my grandfather passed away, and I said, okay, and and he's just like I guess I never asked about that, and so I had to kind of go out and figure it out myself. But just started doing research on it and started finding more. I mean, this is the story just grew. I mean at the beginning, it was like, Okay, they got away
with the money and somehow they got it back. Okay, Well, now al Calahoma was involved, wow, Okay, then a long lost brother okay. And then as I learned more and more, it's just all these cats, the characters grew all of this stuff, This hunt, you know, National Manhunt. It just wound up becoming one of the most and in terms of the stories as well. As I was going through the archives of the newspapers, like I say, this was front page news every day for weeks, and yet somehow
it just kind of got forgotten. No.
It's also interesting too, is your grandfather. You have to piece together likely what happened and where your father got the information from, where your grandfather, your grandfather got the information from. You know where your father got the information from. Where likely you got your grandfather got the information from. And you uncover a guy named Max H. Mac tole.
Yeah, was about Max tollright. Well, he was probably most colorful character in legal industry you could imagine. Uh. He basically ran bambling rackets in Lancaster County while being the county attorney. He became the county attorney where he was voted in there because he had been a quarterback in the Nebraska football team, which that is kind of like a religion in Nebraska. Uh, and he became captain. He
became the quarterback by getting himself in. He's just basically while the coach wasn't watching, he substituted himself in, threw a winning pass. And then when he ran for office, they all want to warn him. So he becomes down of the journey and like was you know, the office itself was like a major gambling den. He would go
down to the race tracks all the time. He even ordered some uh game cocks to be shocked the sent up from Mexico, but he didn't tell the secretary, so when they came in, uh, you know, for to do the cock fighting out of town, and so when they came in, she thought they were for a dinner to bribe senators, so she sent them to have flattered. He's spent one thousands of dollars on them, and she sent
them off to be made into that nice dinner. That's you know, and that kind of gives Yeah, he kind of gives you the idea of what kind of person. I mean, he ran the place by and we basically became friends with anybody who was graduating from law school. He was there immediately supporting them, helping them sort of find those places to get work, which really was helpful
to a lot of people. But then, of course it's kind of that whole I did you a favor, now you and me a favor, and he really got a hold over the entire county.
Now, what is the what was the initial story that you heard and the character that did you did your father or your grandfather had spoken of? What was that kernel of information that sets you on your way? There really was that catalyst? He said, Okay, I yeah, I looked at this as an incredible story.
Now I have this, Uh, he was the original inspiration. It was basically, I mean, it was it was partly the bank robbery, just the fact that it was the bank robbery, but also even more than anything, it was that long loved brother aspect. When I heard about that, I just went, well, now that is the heck of a story. There's got to be something in there, and that's what I really In fact, I actually mostly was going researching his life. He's a long lost brother of Alexapone.
But the more I did research on that, the more I the bankrobbery kept coming up, and I just had to learn more and more about it.
What's the brother's name, Richard Hart.
His original name is the Vincenzo Patone, and he left the family when they lived in New York. He ran away at about the age of sixteen and lived this incredible life. I mean, he was a He was a decorated soldier in World War One, helped chase plent Trovilla in Mexico. He wound up becoming a Prohibition officer in Nebraska and continued to dress like a cowboy even though nobody else was wrote a horse, had two six shooters at his side, and was one of the most successful
Prohibition officers in the entire country. But he had changed his name basically after he ran away from home, he changed it a couple of times, settling on Richard Hart. And that's what his family knew him as, is what the people of town new him as. And he was famous before al Alvin became famous. All he knew was there's this gang or there's this lawman sort of in his name in his way named Richard Hart, having no
idea it was his brother. So yeah, and Richard was just doing his saying separate from him, and then they kind of clashed at this bank robbery.
Now, what I found most interesting too is the would you take us back in history is the state of policing at that time previous to nineteen thirty, but more so you explores the actual laws at that time. This is the pre FBI was what it was called the Bureau of Investigation, so was not the Federal Bureau of Investigation, and it had did not have an incredible amount of power. So even talk about the kind of firepower or there are firearms these guys had and had the ability to
have and use. So tell us about this a little bit about at that time the state of policing and the state of basically fighting the criminals at that time.
Yeah, well, the criminals had really outrun and outgunned the police in a lot of places. The Thompsons and machine gun had been invented for use in World War One, but the war it ended before it got out there. So the guy who had built them or the company that built them needed somewhere to sell them, and the gangsters were all for you know, buying that, whereas the US government it didn't you know, get them so much.
So you wound up with a lot of the police going around filled with pistols and the criminals going around with machine guns. So like, for instance, when this bank robbery happened, they went in there with machine guns with you know, basically very well armed. The officers in the town they you know, not only did they only have pippoles, but when they were went to check out the bank, they would have used the squad the squad card, not one of the squad cards, the one squad car they had,
but it was in the shop. It had broken down for some reason that morning, so they had to one of them took a motorcycle, the other one had to walk. And that basically they had to work with against well armed and well organized criminals.
Yeah, well, okay, now that you've talked about it, let's talk about the whole thing in terms of let's talk about this incredible heist. Because again there's the police are called, but we have to explain how it is that they are called and the action of the actual six men. And I'm a little confused despite everything, so maybe the audience will be as well. There was a lookout, and there was a driver, and there was five men. Tell us about that, but tell us about the actual robbery.
On that sunny September morning in nineteen thirty at the Lincoln National Bank.
The bank had basically just opened, and this car just pulled up and one stated in the driver and another one jumped out of the car. Well, actually the other five jumped out of the car. One of them stayed outside and watched basically as the lookout out of the corner. The other four ran inside. Now the one that was outside it might have actually seemed confusing because the one outside kind of kept peeking in. So sometimes it was five, sometimes it was four inside. But basically that was the
way it worked out. And they were so well organized. Clearly somebody had scoped the place out and they knew where everything was, and they knew what they needed, et cetera, et cetera. When they got to the vault, the guy who was supposed to be there with the key or the combination, they records weren't quite certain. But anyway, person who could actually get him into the vault was out.
I've learned since the publication of the book. He was actually across the street having coffee and saw the whole thing, but you know, sort of stayed away. They was it, so they weren't going to be able to get in the vaulved but someone hadn't turned the time lock on, so they were able to open it and get in. And when they got out out it was sort of a fluke. There was two point seven million dollars worth of cash and securities in there, negotiable bonds and non
negotiable bonds. So they got in the car, zipped away and just literally kind of disappeared into thin air. Nebraska tried shutting down the borders and you know, all the bridges et cetera, et cetera, out of town or out of the state, but they you know, they couldn't see them, they couldn't find them. Somehow they had just kind of
gotten away. So then it became like this whole national search, and without an FBI, it was much more difficult because now you're having to work with different you know, you just have the states, the individual police departments in each state or sheriffs office.
So you're what we're saying too, is that the the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which was then just a Bureau of Investigation, didn't have the power to intervene on something like this, you say, unless there is evidence of an insight job. So let's go back just a little bit to the behavior of these gentlemen, because this is quite unusual. We're talking about nineteen thirty here. Maybe it's not unusual,
but that's the thing. Maybe we'll talk about that the occurrence, the prevalence of these type of bank robberies, maybe not exactly like this, but bank robberies in general in a place like Lincoln. But these guys went in there with suits, no masks. Like you said, it's almost seemed military precision. They really knew what they were doing and they were
in and out in eight minutes. The thing is with this, they knew that they knew they layout of the bank, and they also knew that this gentleman's name that had he would have the access or the code for the vault itself. So they knew that, but they grabbed another woman. She said, listen, this guy is not in. They lied at least if he was across the street having a coffee. They said he was not there that day.
Yeah, apparently they thought he was further away. But anyway, Carraig, go ahead.
Well, the you know I found it interesting is that they threatened her. They said, somebody said we should kill this woman because she said she didn't have the code. So tell us a little bit more about that. And then the idea that witnesses thought that this car was a cop car, that there was a siren. They used
the siren later. So tell us about their entrance, their exit, this is, this is not typical, and this is uh so tell us just a little bit more about that and the experience with the woman and must have been terrifying for her.
Oh yeah, I can imagine. And I think that they actually everybody in the bank thought he was out on business. What happened apparently is the guy came back said yes, I was out on business. But since the book has been published, the person's descendant has emailed me and said, yeah, he was supposed to be out on business and he always told everybody that, but actually this this the family's leader for all these years, has been years across the street.
So they here's these people who are risking their lives. And I guess that's why he didn't tell them. He's like, you guys were you know, telling him? You didn't know where I was and I was over having coffee across the street. So it was like kind of kept, you know, hush hush anyway, but yeah, the way they went, and see, you're right, it's there has been a whole rash of
bank robberies, particularly in Nebraska that week. It was you know, basically this was the start of the Great Depression and a lot of these This is kind of when a lot of those bank robberies started, a lot of organized crime places and even smaller groups. I means when the stage of Bonnie and Clyde and you know all of those guys. But this one had, like I say in the book, sort of a military precision to it. I mean, they were so organized everybody knew exactly where to go.
It wasn't like them getting in there and like figuring out where to go. There was no chaos. They all had a very specific place to go. They got everybody on the floor, they and everything was a cloth work and there was even one of the guys was giving like amounts of time. Okay, this much time. Now, it's been this much time, et cetera, et cetera. They asked for one specific person, like I thay he was out, uh, and the woman was trying to you know, several people
were trying to say the look, he's gone. There's no way to get in the vault. So they just grabbed one woman and said, uh, did you know you help us? Getting sends to the fault. She of course is Petri because she can't hit him. And there she you know, she isn't lying to them, she's not trying to hide anything. So they take her back there and like I say, they this turns out the false is open. Uh. I forget the exact reason, but one of them actually does say, yeah,
I just go ahead and kill her. And these were ruthless killers. And it turns out later it turned out to be some of the same guys who committed the Saint Valentine's name ask her. Now they of course that the bank had no idea, you know, that they didn't know that that's who they were. But if you know, it's been proven later, Yeah, these guys were ruthless. They would have just killed her, but it just so happened.
By that point, the second comp had come along outside and they were like, you know what, guys, that's starting to get a little bit hot here. Let's get out of here. And we got everything we need. So they just loaded everything, uh, and rushed outside, got it into the car. And again it was one of those things of just whole position. I mean, they did like a whole line of them, you know, handing from the door to the to the the door of the bank to
the door of the car. You know, one of them jumped into the car, the others handed you know, the money out and jumped in. And yeah, they had a siren so that they were able to rush away, which is one of the signs that later on when they were like figuring out this was those gangsters who did the sin boundin them oscar, because it was the same
kind of thing. They had driven up in a cop car done the murder, and then they got away in this particular case, they did something very similar where they disguised their car as a as a police car and drove it on out of there. But you know, it was to me, the funniest part is they here, they jump out of the bank. They're rushing there, all this military precisions. They you know, very away, siren blurring, and then get you a red light and stopangsters and then
slowly took you know, a legal right turn. But I think it's how they got away. It was they just merged with traffic and faded into you know, the way everybody else was.
Before we get into that, uh story, the little side story that's very very interesting and right again right out of out of movies. I'm sure somebody used this already
or they will. Is W. A. Selleck as the bank president and he is not in the bank originally when they say everybody on the floor, and at first somebody thinks it's a joke, and so they give him a butt end in the in the head and he and he goes down, and now everybody goes down, so everybody's on the floor, but the bank president he comes to this lady comes out of the office. He had recently had a birthday, and so he thought again, he thought very much that they were joking, but they said, we
are not joking. But he thought they were really joking, but really good at it. Tell us a little bit about w A Sellick.
Yeah, I'm glad you bring that up, because I forgot to mention that. Yet that's one of the most bizarre parts of the stories, and nobody took him seriously. Everybody just thought they were kidding them. They beat a couple of people, you know, to acrop the head until they went down. Then yeah, as you say, the b A Sella came out of his office late, sees what's going on, and he's like, you know, oh, that's this good guys, but you know, we got to get to work. The
bank's open now. And they're like, no, we're serious, and he goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, no, seriously, you guys have to leave because we got to open up for business. And he just would not realize this is serious until one of them beat him down almost you know, just apparently beat him pretty bad late, even once he was on the ground to kind of show everybody how serious
they were. But then even when well was the one person escaped from the bank and another person almost got caught in, you know, when she was walking by the bank, almost grabbed. She ran across the street because she saw was happening right across the streets, told this other guy to call the police. When they called the police, the police thought it was a joke, and they were just like, you know, this is before sir, business only, and they're let you know, no prank calls, like, we're not joking,
get down here. So that's why one of the officers he'd sent down was a junior officer, a guy who was intended to go and basically, you know, slack of kids who were pulling pranks. So everybody along the road thought this was a joke.
Now, in terms of witnesses, they had witnesses to say that it looked like a cop card and it looked like there was cops inside. And then when they left, But in terms of direction and where they could have likely went and any kind of leads tell us about the police manhunt.
Well, essentially, yeah, I mean it initially they should have taken it more seriously and gotten down there, although who knows what would have happened at that point. But basically when they uh, they finally realized it was serious. They apparently got into either The way it was written was that they went and got into their cars. And now it had already said that the one cop car was broken down to what's have been their own vehicles and drove down or a vehicle or whatever drove down to
where the bank was. At that point it had gotten away. They tried asking around, but there were all these different stories that were in different parts of town or whatever. Immediately, they you know, called out, they had oh what was they had an airplane or two to go out and searching. I mean, it became a state matter immediately, and so they closed down the bridges, closed every single border, you know,
et cetera. And this say figure especially they'd be heading to Kansas because you know that's the closest area, and they just went around questioning everywhere in town, and they just kept running across. They went across a couple of people who seemed pretty credible. But looking back, now that we know how it was done, it can't have been the case. For like somebody who saw someone with a gunt machine gun and kind of complimented on it and a nice gun, and the guy said, I can't remember
what it was. He's did some smart alec remark in return. So yeah, but it was just unfortunately one of those reports everywhere. But as we now know, and I'm not sure if I should give it away because it's the last chapter of the book. Years later, the widow of somebody who knew the gangsters revealed that you know basically how they how they did it.
But don't give it away. Don't give it now. Now. The thing is is that so the police don't have really too many leads, but they do have this Iowa license plate if that gives them any kind of help at all. But tell us how the investigation proceeds, and who comes into the picture. You introduce this sheriff. He becomes the state sheriff when prohibition they do a restructuring of policing. So tell us about Sheriff con and tell us a little bit about how the police proceed with this case.
Yeah, Sheriff Conda takes over, and he really, you know, he's one of these people who's very much on the ball. He had not been there at the beginning when it happened. In fact, the Lincoln Chief of police got fired over it, but condit immediately started he essentially started. I mean he basically organized the initial let's block out everything and try to, you know, stop them from getting away. But once it became clear, okay, well now they've they've gotten away. Well,
first of all, actually quick background on Condit. He's actually a pretty interesting character as well. Unfortunately I wasn't able to find I wanted to find out more about this guy. But a little mount that I found on his past he had he had been somebody who was so he was very, very dedicated, to the point where at one point he was taking a prisoner somewhere and the prisoner tried to commit suicide by jumping in front of train. He had saved the prisoner by jumping out and pushing
him away. He got hit by the fan himself off his leg, but still actually he went away from the force for a while, but then he came back to it and was one of the better you know, sheriffs of the state had had even in his h in his condition. And one of the things that he uh that he did was he really he believed in having connections and utilizing those connections, and he had a lot in these different states. And so once he started on
this investigation. He immediately just started writing to everybody, including uh, the the like the Bureau of Investigation where goshoot, what is his name now? I can't think that he's now from it for Edgar Hoober, thank you. Edgar Hooper was now there and he was writing to him and trying to information. Hooper kind of essentially said, well, if you can find out that somebody with that it was an insight job, that somebody in the bank uh was part of this, then we can get involved. And now at
that point conduct is Eddie been shared. He could have tried to kind of put a finger on somebody because there was there was some incompetence there, somebody had left the vault or open, and that really does end up
looking like it was an inside job. But to his credit, he really investigated thoroughly and found that and people for years that decades after that we're standing up for them saying, no, we really believe it was an accident because there's just nobody there who either a was the type of person to do it, and be ever showed any having profited from it. You know, you'd think at least years later maybe they'd show up with like a really nice house
or whatever. But so he apparently was not, and he didn't try to put the finger on any of them or whatever. And let's see what I'm trying to think of. Essentially, he wound up empty handed. I mean he had sent as he's put it in one of his letters, we've turned over heaven and hell here and can't find anything. But of course, there were so many suspicious characters in
so many states. That'd like to say at this time, this is when a lot of bank robberies were starting to happen in all kinds of areas, and he started really looking at Texas as a primary sources. There was a lot going on there, a lot of serve organized crimes starting to take place down in like East Texas, Oklahoma, that kind of area. But he just he could not get any solid leads. And that's kind of when mac poll, the county attorney, came in.
What was though officially, what did they determine with obviously nothing conclusively, but how did they reconcile the idea that they knew the guy's name that had access to the vault, and they seemed to know the layout of the entire bank. That's why they could do it. In such a short order, and they knew that there was a fair amount of money available there too, so well, they recognized immediately that it was an inside job in terms of these guys
having that information. How could they have had that information?
And that, Yeah, that was one of the things that really made it very suspicious, like, Okay, well there must have been somebody involved, because yeah, they knew all this information, but they really grew to suspect and actually the biggest suspicions that they had, and it turned out to be correct. Again years later, it was revealed that essentially they had sent was always a few months earlier. I think it
was a few months earlier. Someone had come along supporting to be in a security like he ran the security company or whatever and could make their bank part secure, and so the bank had given this person a tour of everything and the person that kind of learned to lay out from that, and that was the person that then gave the information to the and they hurt you, you know, they basically mentioned this. Tesslain suspected. He was like, you
know what, I think that's the most likely saying. Even though if he had continued down the road of the inside job, he could have gotten the safe gear of investigation. He just really believe that was the most likely thing to have happened. And yet again, sure enough, decades later, we've learned that that was indeed the case. It was this other person who who would kind of case to joint by saying, oh, yeah, I'm a security person and
I can do a better job with your security. Show me what you currently have, which again sounds like it's raight out of a movie, but apparently the way it really happens.
So how does Conditt proceed and what is the I guess the reaction by the media about this, and no, what I found interesting too is not only the media, but the general mood of the people and why in terms of reaction to the bank robberies and the bank robbery like this, I found this very surprising.
Well, yeah, I mean they were outraged because of course, there had been several bank robberies already earlier that month in Nebraska or that week, I mean in Nebraska, and there are a couple more after that, and they were upset about how this could happen, and it was so much money that this could really bankrupt the area. I mean, this was like you know, say the beginning of the Great Depression. Uh, you didn't have the fd I seed
ensuring a lot of money. It was gonna put a lot of people, uh make a lot of people destitudes and so you know, the the the bank itself and ended up having to close, having to uh basically go bankrupt. There's another term for them going bankrupt. But you know what I mean, they ended uving shut down. But uh w a uh uh we were just talking about him. Uh Sell Sell was he He was somebody who really had a lot of credibility. He did not want to or integrity this word it.
Uh.
He really was concerned about the people, and so he worked tirelessly to get their money back. He started working for another bank, and he would just basically take at times his own money to make sure that people got their money back. And he was doing that, you know, for for a while until they finally got the real you know, amount of money back. But yeah, he really he wanted to make sure that people weren't hurt by it.
But of course, you know they were, and they were very upset by what it was doing to their e army and that this could happen there and it was very frightening too, that you know, such armed criminals could just enter the middle of town broad daylight and do this and so, and of course that the police were so under equipped, and so that was there was a big outcry for that. So that's when a lot of things started happening, like they got radios, they got better weapons,
really started to arm themselves. And this not only happened in Lincoln, but other places too because this was huge news. So other banks, frost nations started arming or police department procrastinations, started arming themselves.
Wasn't there sort of an attitude from a lot of people though that had been it almost seemed parallel now that the banks had done some shenanigans and people had been burned, so there was a and you said, a lot of people didn't really have any money in the bank, and so there was a sort of an animosity, to say the least about the organized banks, and then a sort of romanticism about some of the gangsters. Was a little bit of that at that time, Oh yeah.
Oh yeah, yeah, now not even not quite so much here, but in general, there was a feeling around the nation of yeah, kind of romanticizing the criminals. You see it from a lot of the gangsters at the time or the bank ruppers at the time, there was one in particular, trying to think of his name. Shoot, there was this movie recently made actually about five years ago, maybe six eight,
something like that, with Johnny Depp playing Dillinger. Dillinger was a really good example of it in that the people were almost were more on his side than they were the thoughts, even though they were he was robbing the banks because so many people had lost their money, their money to the banks, and their banks themselves seemed fine.
Uh.
There was kind of a you know, cheering on of bank roppers as well, and a lot of them became you know, sort of folk heroes, you know, and that sort of thing. I don't know there would be so much in the case here, but of course you wound up with because of that heroizing of the criminal sort of in general, I think that kind of grew more bank ropper or responded to more bank robbers because they're like, hey, people, you know, I can be pretty boy Floyd, I can
be John Dillinger. I can be Bonnie and Clyde, whose lives were portrayed in these you know, exciting kind of ways. In a weird time.
That sounds like history repeats itself. Oh, it sounds like kind of a hip hop career into making.
I think so. I think that's exactly right. I mean, you saw, you see today a lot of resentment for the banks and bankers and that sort of thing, and yeah, you know, they're really Unfortunately, that's kind of been a thing with our culture where people tend to hear wise
the troublemakers more than the lawmen. I mean, you don't hear about as many great lawmen in society, even though there have been wonderful ones, But you do hear about those those criminals who you know, hurt people oddly enough, but it's almost like, well, as long as you're not hurting me, kind of a thing, you know.
Now, getting back to lawmakers and people that made a significant difference we get. Let's get back to the salesman that the conduct basically concludes that must have been sort of an advanced scout for the gangsters. So what does he what does he do from that point? D I guess that's his first foothold. He says, listen, this is the evidence I have. What they do in response to that.
Research lead, Yeah, you know, he isn't really able to do a lot with the person who had sort of been the scouts kind of person because that's Efferson's sort
of gone and they don't really know uh where. But the eyewitnesses did manage to identify the person who had been the lookout because he had been out there and broad daylight right in the middle, so he was easily seen, and several people, including one of the cops who came up very close to him and they, you know, had a face to based conversation with him, uh identified him
as Fred quote unquote Killer Burke. His nickname was Killer. Basically, they give you an idea of what kind of person he was, and he was believed and it's been since somewhat semi verified or at least there's a strong belief that he was one of the major organizers of, like I said, the Saint Valentine Day massacre, and so you know, once that but they you know, whether he was definitely involved in that or not. They knew he was a
gangster out of Chicago. They knew that he had involvement there and East Saint Louis and basically these heights of criminal activity or of organized crime and so once he figured that out, so he knew that that was the route to first start taking. About this time is when Max Ple kind of took over the investigation. I was kind of surprised. I guess the reason is because they coming because to me, I would have expected the sheriff to continue on and he did sort of continue to
help with the investigation. But about the time that they figured out it was Fred Burke, that's about when conduct started taking a back seat and mac full the county attorneys started taking the front seat. And I don't know if that's because Tol just simply said, you know, I'm taking over, or if that's sort of a natural thing of that time. You know, once it goes across the state lines, maybe it's more the county attorney it takes over. I'm not a Hundleton cert and I've never able to
figure that out. But yeah, at that point then and we start sort of finding out, you know, some of these these come home there, and he really wanted to go after Fred Burke. But then that becomes the whole nother story. Should I go start going into.
That, Well, lead us into that, because that's that's important, that's the that's the response basically.
Exactly, Yeah, that's the trail essentially, he he yeah, he starts, you know, essentially trying to figure out how to you know, to make sure that it is him and that he can basically both case against him, et cetera. Of course, meanwhile, they don't really know where he is. A lot of these criminals they've got, you know, an entire organization keeping them hidden. And he had been actually uh hiding at
that time. Anyway, he had not really been doing a lot of jobs because again of the same Valentine's Day master. He keeps coming back to that. After that, he and a lot of them had been you know, hiding out and doing bank you know, coming out only in th bank robberies, and then hiding again. And this was a whole long color story about where it turned out he
was essentially hiding out in a small town. He'd gotten married under an assumed name, and everybody in this town thinks he's this upstanding citizen, completely a different guy, except for one guy who was like this total conspiracy theorist who kept saying, no, he treads Burke, and nobody believed him because this is the guy who normally, like you'd see him around town, and you know, like the instant today's world, he'd be wearing tinfoil on his head, you know.
I mean, he's like the total conspiracy theorist pleeds in every you know conspiracy out there. But then he just happened to be right, and nobody believed him for a long time, until after a while the police were like, wait a second, I think that is him. So he finally gets caught by the police out there, but by that point he's murdered a confess out there. He's also
done all these other gangs and things. There are so many states that want him for all of these bicker crimes that Max Tole is not able to get him. And at that point Tole kind of realizes, I'm never these guys were so big. There's once they're caught, there's no way I'm going to be able to get them. That means I can't them to justice. I don't look like the hero to you know, this length of being an unsult case, and the people of Nebraska blame me and they won't vote me in next time. Of course,
the Max goal, that's everything for him. It isn't even the morality aspect, it's how can I keep myself re elected? So he kind of gives up on going after the real guys, and he finds out that there are these gangsters in East Saint Louis who are going to be grabbed, you know, basically for some questioning or whatever anyway, and so he goes there to just sort of frame them, and they are bank robbers and they are criminals, but he knows they are not these criminals. Oh, I forgot
to mention. Also one of the reasons he wanted to catch people like birth or someone you know, from there was to kind of then figure out who else today. If he could catch one person, of course, you know, as an officer, then you can start making deals to get everybody else. But if he can't even charge them with anything, then he can't use any leverage. So he goes up to these other people who might know the
real criminals, but he knows or not. He charges them, starts shaking them down to try to get the information from them, and brings them back to Nebraska, starts sort of manipulating the witnesses into pointing the finger at them, and they're you know, all along he knows that he even admits them I know you're not guilty of this, but I need to find the real criminals, so I need you to help me find them or you're gonna go to jail so that I look good. Meanwhile, the second the contray.
Oh, I just said, Wow, that's uh, you can get that kind of candidate. That's pretty candid.
I would say, you're yeah, he really, I mean Max Toll is just one of those you know, uh, one of the guys who's he basically was the law version of al Capone, and you know in Nebraska because he kind of had his whole network and everybody's kind of around him. But he was willing to do whatever a took ticket to do and he are just basically to
stay in power. Meanwhile, the assistant US Attorney, now the US attorney was the involved in this, but the assistant US Attorney, Robert Van Pelt, just happened to have an office in the building of the bank that was robbed, and so he's he's in charge, you know, he's helping with this. He is assistant or he's working with mac Pole. Mack Pole is the one who's actually in charge of
the investigation. But Van Pelt is really uncomfortable with the way things are doing, because you know, he's very he's got a guy with a lot of integrity. He's somebody who, you know, I want to catch the real criminals, et cetera, et cetera. So when he sees what Tol is doing, Toll isn't quite telling them, Oh, I know these guys are innocent, but Van Pelt can tells they aren't the real criminals. So he continues an investigation and he kind of goes away for a while because he figured out
somewhere in Missouri. He gets on this lead somebody's sister. He starts following that leads, et cetera, et cetera, and his support is very slow investigations that he's following up, whereas mac Pole is like, really on it, I mean, or I shouldn't say on it, but he's he's things are moving with him because he's now getting them on charges. He's, you know, the court cases starting everywhere they go. There are huge amounts of armed guards everywhere they go. I mean,
the press is on it. The in fact, the newspapers themselves were referring to them as the Yangster's not the suspects, but you know they they would refer to them oftentimes as the gates. So and that's where that kind of goes.
And then since finally gets it, the fourth guy named Gus Winkler, who is al Capone's favorite's or one of Alcohn's favorites, to take over after he goes to prison, because by this time it's kind of becoming clear that he's going to go to jail for tax evasions, and so he's kind of grooming this magnetism Gus Winkler to
be one of the people who really takes over the organization. Well, Winkler winds up in a car accident and while he's under while he's unconscious, he ends up kind of muttering about the bank robbery and or you know, sort of in his sleep. I mean, he mutters about the Lincoln bank robbery and apparently he wasn't involved in it, but he knew the people involved in it, and so you can imagine Max Ple like right on top of it.
He's charging the guy. He's you know, starting to build a whole case against him, and he basically says to Winkler, look, I know you didn't do this, but if you don't give me the money, you don't give me the guys who did do it and the moneys they stole. You're gonna spend the next year, I think a twenty years in jail. And so that you know, so that now Winkler is involved in trying to get this money back. Capone being one of them wanting to have him out
of jail, he starts helping. And now you have Max Toll the there's Zanchester County Attorney and al Capone working to get this money, working together to get this money back.
Yeah, amazing, amazing. So so how does those go? What is there any snags to this negotiation?
I yeah, you know, I mean it well centially it's the amount of my first of all, a toll Uh put put them on too. Was it a hundred thousand dollars to look at it? I believe it was one hundred thousand dollars to fail, which is a huge amount of money in nineteen thirty. Oh, by the way, I just met him. To this two point seven million that they sold in today's money would come out to thirty
two million dollars. The amount that for fail was so much I believe it's since it is one hundred thousand dollars comes out to you know, more than a million today. And this is right when the phone is on trial, and he's, you know, he needs the money himself for you know, his various things, and he's you know, it does not the time when he really wants to be bothered, but he does it because he wants this guy out of jail and he knows that this needs to happen.
He gets the guy, the guy gets out, and he knows the guys who have the money. Now remember it's all negotiable bonds, so Winkler has to go to them. They all want They're all like, okay, we'll sell it to you before this larger amount because none of them like like win Cler because he's you know, he's the teacher's favorite kind of thing. And Winkler doesn't have that kind of money, so he once again needs it from
the pone. Capone's not sure if he wants to get any more involved in this because he needs tending some money himself. That's when his long lost brother steps in and goes, yeah, you're going to do this because you you agree to stay out of my territory and your boys entered my territory. So anyway, and that's where Yeah,
Richard Hart comes back, it comes all full sirtle. He comes back into his life and says, you're gonna get his money back and out sure enough al did and you made sure they got the money back and basically saved the economy in Nebraska.
Yeah, incredible. Now, how much was there was reports of a fair amount of silver? How much silver was in this hall as well? Is that just included? That's just included in the two point seven million?
I think it was just involved, you know. I think there was some these amounts. And somebody even pointed out to me at one point that they're, yes, it was hard to tell exactly uh the amounts of is. And I think that was part of the confusion because I was never able to find it either. I was going through everything trying to figure out the exact amounts and everything, but unfortunately I don't think it's said with the silver, how much there was m.
So so how was this so? How was this money returned? I didn't know that under the conditions, But tell us the actual under what circumstances this money was finally returned.
That's where the secret six comes in, where those people who don't know who the secret six were essentially they were basically imagine six Batman.
Uh.
There was six really wealthy guys in Chicago who got set up with uh, with organized crime in their city. So they pooled their resources. In fact, one of them was the head of fears. Yeah, in fact, his last thing excers anyway, in charge of serious robots, and you know, the others were equally uh powerful, and they basically pulled
their money together to fight Drive. And they were both the Secret Six because at the time their names were not revealed since kind of come out which ones they they seem to have been, but they had been going after the pone. They had basically financed a bunch of things, including the untouchables. Elliott Ness was basically one of their guys. In fact, he was a cousin of one of the of one of them and see oh yeah, so anyway, so they've been going after him and all that thing.
And so when they found a lout about pistoling on, they kind of helped in the investigation and helped put pressure on the Phone and you know, help pushure on some of these other people. So they wound up being
the mediators between the Phone and Max Pohl. Essentially the organization brought the money to the Secret six or they got the uh the bearer bonds to the Secret Six and whatever cash there was and et cetera, gave it to them and then they passed it on to Max Full who then came back and made up this whole story about how they had left it on a dark alley, you know, like street corner in a big bag just did he had drafted and you know, I think part of it was sort of the key the indity of
this Secret six secrets, but also it was just very max Hole to kind of embellish and create this whole surious kind of story.
So what what of course he has political aspirations as a result of this, this victory for him, What are the political ramifications for him?
Well, he got to stay in office for quite a bit longer, you know, essentially having gotten the money back for you know, people, but it was too late for the bank. The bank had already closed. But the people all got you know, their money back in the businesses, you know, they got their money back and et cetera. So he was kind of praised, and he also had enough money sort of mysteriously, you know, wound up with
enough money to build himself a nice, big home. So it's almost think he was very clear he had some sort of brides as well.
Uh.
He continued to have power in Nebraska until a couple of days later when my grandfather sort of accidentally ended up getting him, uh to or cause them to lose an election. Uh, surely by accident. He was trying to help him, but he wound up. He was trying to was at one point max Ball at them essentially to run for office because he thought that his opponent's votes would be split between my grandfather and him, but instead it's the Toll vote up is split between him and
my grandfather. Uh. Somehow, I don't know how they got associated together, but anyway, and that was how mac Ball finally lost. How Nebraska was.
Thanks to your relatives.
Yeah, and that's kind of that's how we believe this. My grandfather finally learned the story was because they even though he knew the Toll was just a crook, and my grandfather was about as far from that as as you could be, he kind of liked the guy. And that's kind of the way was of everybody. That's why I kind of compare him to Al capone because you look at both of them, you looked at someone like opponent. He was so well liked by people, even though everybody
knew he was a criminal. And it was the same with Pall I mean, you know, so many people liked him and he was such an enjoyable guy, but they were like, yeah, but he was to feel your he'd feel your watch when you weren't watching, you know, mm hmm.
How did the media play this? How did how did the story play out in the media? How did they what was their take on this entire ending of this story?
The Yeah, the ending of it, you know, it was well, it was one of those things because of the fact that essentially, once he dies, the money back. He had made the deal with Dus Winkler that if you if you help me get his money back and then get through Well at that point he wasn't even trying to get the real guys, but he's like, if you can
get me the money back, uh, you know, I'll release you. Well, once the money was back, all of a sudden, you know, because Winkler made that deal very secretly, Once the money was back, all of a sudden, Winkler was like, oh, you know, what we just we found this a new at this new evidence that says that he didn't do any These other witnesses they're not very credible, even though they're the same witnesses that put the other people behind bars.
He's like, oh, they're not This guy really isn't uh Well, these witnesses aren't really credible for you know, Gus Linklin. And so it became very obvious and very clear that he had uh made a deal with Compones, and the the mayor was uh or was this Gus Well mayor and the governor actually, I believe we're not you know, we're not happy with him, and wound up being like this big fight. Ironically, if anybody knows about WILLIAMS. Brian and who was one of the sides of the Scopes
trial that was a whole historic incident of itself. It was his brother was in office. It was very much a critic of troll and they wound up having this big argument. And the person who kind of came in between and sort of mediated it was the father of the head speech writer of John F. Kennedy. So he had all these people who like wound up being in some way, you know, very famous in their own right. But anyway, so there was this big art debate going
on between the three of them. But told got to say, and I mean, while people were very uncomfortable with what he did, and it was very blatant what he had done, and the press was sort of against them, you know. Then the people were sort of unhappy with what he did, at the same time, they're like, but he saved our economy, so they voted him in anyway, even though, and the press just continued to be more and more critical of them through the years, even but people just kept voting for him anyway.
What was the fate of al Capone's brother, mister.
Hart, Well, that actually you'll be able to see more of in the next book. That's one I'm actually coming out with at the very beginning of next year. He basically he continued to live in Nebraska. He was, like I said, one of the more successful pearl Bish officers in the country. Wound up being a b A VI I A officer. Then just settled down in Homer, Nebraska, which is a real small town, and you know, raised his family and he had a few other kind of
exciting adventures. But it's you know, like I say, a very long story and stuff like that. But it goes on fre sale and October it will be called two Gun Hearts.
Sit against stories of the title.
Oh, it's going to be called two gun Heart, which is obviously like the number two, and then gun Heart because that was the nickname he went by. Apparently, because he went around, you know, with his two pistols at his side, he got the and his last name with heart, so they gave him the nickname two gun Heart.
And what happened to Shariff condit? What was his fate?
You know?
Unfortunately I was never able to find out he essentially, I do know that he was an avid photographer, and he wound up, uh that wound up becoming kind of like his big copy. I mean, he was you know, continued his sheriff for a while and then apparently what it got known for in his later years was his photography. Took pictures of all of his own items from you know,
the police force and of the police force. Apparently they I mean they've actually been on the gallery and link and et cetera, and it's all in this one person's private collection. And I tried over and over to get hold of that person, so I could find as much as I could, but unfortunately he wouldn't get back to me, and so I had to get information sort of secondhand. So that's that's about as much as I know.
Unfortunately, and the three accused. What was the eventual fate of those people as a result of this.
Well, one of them wound up beating the raft his lawyer. It's going to be a whole story, you'll almost have to read about it, but essentially they found a way to well. The first the first two who went on trial were both convicted, went to jail for twenty years. One of them died in prison. The other one managed to get all the way through and got out of prison. And he basically he would say several times, it's like, look, I probably deserved much worse than what I got, because
he was a hit man. He had murdered people, he had brought to other banks. He just but he was always like, you know, but I probably got off easy. But I didn't deserve to go to jail for this one robbery. This is one of the only things I had not done. The third one, the third trial, it
came along. The lawyer figured out this very clever way to get around things and managed to make it so that they couldn't prove that he had actually actually he made them prove that the bank had actually been robbed in the first place, which was a bizarre kind of legal maneuver, but he managed to get hints. They went through three trials and they were all mistrials or not miss trials. They were hung juries until finally told just
gave up. The guy got you know, got off scot free, and within weeks or maybe a couple of months, he was killed out on the streets somewhere, just gangline activity. So it's like the other two probably survived longer just because they got they went to prison. Wow.
Incredible, Yes, incredible side stories to the basic story. Wow. What as a result of doing this, I'm sure you've come away from it being affected. What was something that really either surprised you or most affected you about covering this story or finding discovering information and up that was gained in this story?
You know, the really good question that's you know, I'd say it's the fact that it was front page news. I mean, you should have seen when I was at the Historical Society, because I expected to go there and just maybe find a little bit information of information since it has been so buried and lost in history. When I went to the Best of Historical Society, it looks for the newspapers that this was, you know, like a
newspaper article. I figured maybe I'd find a story about bank robbery and then somewhere else and be like a side story on page twelve or whatever, you know. So I went there expecting that. Instead I go there, I go just into the basic area and front page news every day, and like additional information inside of the paper, and they were like pages dedicated to this. In the trial, I have the entire transcripts written inside, you know, these
whole pages. I ended up bringing my mind mom and dad back the next day because they're really interested in history. Is that if you guys can help me be my research assistant. So the three of us were different microfilm machines, and you could just hear us throughout the whole place going, oh my god, here's exclaiming through the whole thing about we just couldn't believe how expansive and huge this story was at the time, and yet nobody knows about it today.
And here was the largest bank robbery in history. And yet it's not listed. I mean mostly because those records ated being taken in nineteen thirty five along with the FBI. But you know, but because it was before that, nobody knows about it. We're all just like, how, how is it my grandfather was the only person who knew about this?
Well, thank god for your grandfather, that's certain. It's amazing though, so that it seems to be a phenomena to that some people have done some mystical, incredible crimes, like Carol Checkter, and he has said the same sort of thing, that some of these stories are huge at the time but really disappear for some reason. So it is great that you had the good journalistic sense to pursue this and the end result is this incredible book, The Great Heist. So I want to commend you on that and incredible
fascinating read too, and quite funny. And some of the things, how are completely ironic. Some of these things are to occur.
Yeah, yeah, it really is a lot of the ironies. And I mean I hate to laugh about you know, bank robbery, its where you know, sometimes people are killed and stuff. But it's just so bizarre. I can't do anything else. It's the laugh. It's just the most bizarre story I think I've ever heard.
Yeah, it's very comic with the President coming out to me. I thought I laughed out loud that the President coming out and really saying, listen, I know this is a joke because he had the birthday party before that, and yet still still claiming no, no, no no, and you guys are doing a great job. And so they have to get into the base, and then a couple more times till he finally gets the idea, buddy, this ain't a joke.
So yeah, incredibly.
Now, for those of them might want to contact you, they be so inclined after listening to this interview to use the Facebook. Tell us about your website, tell us about where they might be able to get this book. Tell us a little bit about your contact information.
Jeff, all right, well, yeah, I have all my stuff is on Bandwagon online dot com. All my books, including this one. Of course, you can find it on Amazon, and it's on all the EU eaters, Barnes Noble, etcetera, etcetera. You can even order them from Barnes Noble stores now and if you're in certain areas, they actually have them on the shelves. Yeah, and if you know, anybody wants to, I'm under Jeff MacArthur on Facebook, although I know there
are a few others. So you go there and you'll find covers of books on on there, and that's that one's me. I also have Bandwagon Books as a Facebook group, so you know, anybody can find me there.
Have to look, they can find you.
Yeah, exactly. I've tried to make myself as visible as possible.
Yeah, you certainly have. And thank you very much for coming on and talking about the Great Heist again. Another incredible read. It's really a lot of fun and you've dug up another incredible, incredible story. Thank you very much, and you have a great evening, Jeff, thank you too, and thank you for having me. Thank you. Good night, Jeff.
Take care,