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You are now listening to True Murder The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Gaesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening, South Florida in the seventies was one of the nation's most dangerous locations. Behind the image of sun and surf, young women were
the victims of a brutal killer. In the mid.
Seventies, over a dozen young women were murdered and found in Canal. These cases became known as the Flat Tire murders and the Canal Murders. Only one case was ever solved. More than four decades have passed since these crimes, and no arrests were ever made. This is the first book to explore these murders in depth, as well as a bizarre series of murders occurring in the years earlier, known
as the Goldsack Stranglings. Interviews with the detectives that originally worked to solve these cases provide an intimate view of the attempt to capture the killer that terrorize South Florida. In addition to the cases themselves, the book explores several suspects, including the infamous serial killer Ted Mundy. Detailed maps of South Florida illustrate the complex canal system that became the
victim's graveyard. The book they were featuring this evening is The Flat Tire Murders Unsolved Crimes of a South Florida Serial Killer. Special guest author, journalist and author Michael P. Burns. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Michael P. Burns.
Thank you, Dan, It's a real pleasure to be here.
Thank you so much. Very very interesting case and corresponding book. Let's get right to where you grew up and your connection to this story.
I grew up in Miami in the nineteen eighties and nineteen nineties, and I really didn't have a connection to this particular series of murders until fairly recently. As I talk about in the book, one of the pivotal events in my childhood was the execution and the surrounding chaos regarding Ted Bundy in nineteen eighty nine, So that really that really struck a nerve and kind of brought to my attention that there are dangerous people out there and
bad things happened. But other than that, growing up in Miami, it was very little crime at least where I was, and a very enjoyable childhood that I had there. So it wasn't until recently that I even became aware of what was going on there in the nineteen seventies.
You say that you write that to your interest in these cases, the Canal murders and the flat tire murders converged with the arrest of the Golden State Killer. Tell us why.
Well, you know, I've been following true crime for years now, and the East Area rapist and the Golden State Killer were his monikers, and I became aware of him around twenty sixteen or so. This was before an arrest was made, and I thought the cases were extremely interesting. They were
very very little in terms of physical descriptions. It was just this sort of ghost that was floating around California in the nineteen seventies and early nineteen eighties, And like I said, became aware of this case, and I also became aware of the public interest in this case, it sort of took on a life of its own, and in twenty sixteen, the California Department of Justice sort of brought this case to public attention and said, we're looking for this guy. You know, thirty plus years later, we
have not forgotten this is an active case. And that really caught my attention as well. So it kind of converged with law enforcement pushing for an arrest as well as the public interest in the case. And I thought, you know, once there was an arrest, it really was a awakening for me that cases from forty years ago can still be solved.
Now, what was as you write, what is the purpose of writing this book primarily other than just to tell this story that's untold and people for the most part, it's unknown, But is what do you hope to gain from writing this book?
I hope the same thing that happened with the East Area rapists and the Golden State killer, to bring public attention to these cases and ultimately to have some sort of resolution in terms of solving the cases if possible. And I do realize the limitations of law enforcement, but the fact that these cases have just sort of been forgotten really struck a nerve with me, and so I definitely want the public to know that these cases happened, that these victims are not forgotten.
Right now in this book, these South Florida canals are, you write, as abundant as palm trees and swimming pools. Tell us about these South Florida canals. What is their purpose and why are they so prominent?
Yeah, the canals in South Florida are ubiquitous. You'll drive a few miles and you'll see several, you know, along the way. They basically drain the marshy land of South Florida out to the Atlantic Ocean. They also provide defense against potential flooding due to hurricanes, which you know, you'll have a severe hurricane like the one in the nineteen twenties that killed thousands of people. So they were designed to drain South Florida make it inhabitable land, which it did.
And there are twenty six hundred miles of canals crisscrossing South Florida like veins and arteries, and they all sort of moved the water westward to eastward out to the Atlantic Ocean. So the canals are everywhere. And I remember, you know, as a child there were a lot of fun for fishing. There was always a place to go if you wanted to fish. But they were dangerous as well,
you know, kids would sometimes fall in. But they were just a part of life and they still remain a part of life for most people in South Florida.
You talk about South Florida crime explosion in the seventies, tell us a little bit about that explosion and how canals were involved as well. Well.
Yeah, going back to the canal just to point out that they get dredged, and they are basically when they dredge them, they find everything from airplanes to parts to rockets, cars, bodies. The canals are basically a dumping ground for people that want to either get rid of stuff or stuff that they don't want anyone to ever find. So they really are quite interesting. When they're dredged, you'll find pretty much everything.
But in the nineteen seventies there was a huge explosion of crime in South Florida, particularly Dayden Broward County, And it was shocking to me because I had a sort of bucolic view of Florida back then. But in terms of crime in nineteen seventy five, Florida itself had the third highest crime rate in the United States, and in nineteen seventy five, Daid was the fourth in crimes per capita and Broward was sixth in the United States. So there was definitely a huge crime explosion, and I think
gets foreshadowed a bit. It gets overlooked because of the nineteen eighties drug epidemic and crime surrounding that. But as I note in the book, even before the nineteen eighties, crime was off the charge in South Florida.
You write about in the sixties, and you chronicle of these spectacular cases and the victims before we get.
To the.
Canal murders and the flat tire murders of nineteen seventy five and nineteen seventy six. So tell us why they were dubbed the canal murders and the flat tire murders before we we start going through the victims and what happened in early nineteen seventy five.
Yeah, they got to name the canal murders because all of the victims were found either near or in canals, with one or two exceptions. But it was basically a series of young girls, all sort of fitting a general appearance,
some as young as fourteen. There were three that were fourteen years old that were found in or near canals in nineteen seventy five, one after the other, so they got to name the canal murders by the local media backed then the flat tire murders were sort of a subset of those murders, and they occurred in the summer of nineteen seventy five when two women, Ronnie Gorlan and Elise rap were basically tricked because their car tires were deflated at a mall in Dade County, and their bodies
were found the next day in canals, and police I think logically concluded that the tires were deflated, they were offered help, and then they were murdered. So those are the flat tire murders.
Let's go through some of the canal murders and narctaristics of the killer and some of the characteristics of the victims.
Sure, Like I mentioned, the victims were quite young. Three of them were fourteen years old, one was seventeen, two were nineteen, So these were young women. They were not prostitutes or drug addicts. They were pretty much suburban teenage girls. Some were engaged to be married. One was married, but there were no issues in terms of you know, drug abuse or anything like that. And they were all found, like I said, in canals in South Florida, different different
ways as they were killed. But sort of through nineteen seventy five, a series of young young women in the suburbs were murdered and found in canals.
How do the police begin their investigation in those murders. You mentioned one crime that was solved, and that's Judith and Austerling from Rushville, Indiana. So tell us what exactly these women were, where they were, in their lives, where they were in a position to be sure approached.
What was the approach sure? Judith Oasterling was nineteen years old. She was from Indiana, and she kind of left Indiana and came down to Florida to look for adventure, looked for her new life, and she began working at a a health spa, which was sort of a generic term that was given to places that sometimes were fronts for prostitution. We don't know what she did at the place that she worked, but in January nineteen seventy five, she was found nude in a canal along US twenty seven, drowned
and beaten. So that was really the first case that got the attention of law enforcement, and they put a lot of effort into investigations, investigating different suspects working the case, and it eventually paid off later, but that was the only case that was ever solved.
Then you talk about Barbara Davis Stevens, who was twenty three years old and she was last seeing February twelfth, nineteen seventy five. What was the details of her murder.
Well, Barbara was a Miami native. She was married to her high school sweetheart, but they had separated and he had moved to Hollywood, California. On February twelfth, nineteen seventy five, she went to the Gold Triangle department store near Dayland Mall in Miami. She made a purchase of two rock and roll records, and she disappeared. Her body wasn't found until several days later out behind a shopping center a couple miles away, and the autopsy determined that she had
been stabbed multiple times. She was a very attractive young woman, blondehaired, with roots in Miami through her father, so she was a native. She was not like Judith Ousterling, who sort of had set up shop in South Florida. She was a native, and her murder was really heavily investigated. They eventually found her body after extensive searches, and.
There was another aspect to it as well, that someone had said something that police can that he must have been a witness, and then it was and there was a message on the concrete wall as well, tell us a little bit about that.
Sure, police were looking into clues and interviewing people after they found her body, and they noticed that a magic marker had been used to write the following words on a wall, A girl was killed here, and I saw it with an exclamation point after it, which clearly would
get law enforcement's attention. They put a lot of effort into finding out who possibly could have written that, and eventually determined that it was a prank from a teenager who broke down in tears when he was finally confronted by law enforcement about that. But that just kind of shows the kind of directions that the cases went in. There would sometimes be some hot leads and but they would be pursued, but they never really amounted too much, except in JUDITHO. Stilling's case.
After Barbara Steven's murder in Miami, you write about Arietta Marie Shaw Tinker seventeen. She was last seen in April ninth at a restaurant that was known to be frequented by the Outlaws motorcycle club. What happened to her? When was she found? Give us the particulars.
Yes, Arietta Tinker was a seventeen year old married woman. She was a mother as well. She had an infant at home and she was dropped off at the Hippopotamus restaurant in Fort Lauderdale and after spending a day there on a day at the beach, she disappeared. And she was eventually found in the Snake Creek Canal near US twenty seven on April ninth, nineteen seventy five, and it was really unclear as to the cause of death. Eventually it was determined that she drowned, and it was unclear
whether there was foul play. But it leads to a serious question, how did this woman with no car end up drowned in a very very remote canal near US twenty seven.
Judith Asterling was also found in the Snake Creek Canal. Is that correct?
That's correct, And that's the canal that's parallel to US twenty seven, and I talk about US twenty seven in the book. It's a very isolated road. It really is a just a corridor between central Florida down to Daydeon Broward Counties. There's a lot of agriculture around there, sugarcane things like that, but it's really not a road that you pull off of and stop for shopping or anything. It's a really isolated road. So to be found out there in that canal was definitely unusual.
You mentioned now Nancy Lee Fosts was nineteen years old, and this is June fourteenth, and very much differently different than Arieta Marie Tinker. This person was walking home. How was she found and what were some of the differences, especially from areata in terms of condition.
Sure, Nancy was nineteen years old and she sort of had a troubled relationship with her boyfriend and her sister. And June fourteenth, nineteen seventy five, she disappeared while walking at night in Fort Lauderdale, and she was found a few days later, again in the canal near US twenty seven, near the Sawgrass Recreational Area, which is sort of a public park. I have air boat rides, things like that, but again a very remote area, and Nancy had been
hit on the head and choked. So there's a difference between her murder and Areata Tinkers, where Miss Tinker simply was drowned out in that remote canal, But in this case there was definitely signed to foul play with being hit on the head and choked.
You right, that the public is becoming aware of around this time. And then you introduced to Barbara Schreiber fourteen and Belinda's Zetta Rover fourteen, who were friends. Tell us what happens on June eighteenth, faithful Night.
Well, yes, this was the case that really indicated that there was something going on because these two girls, Barbara Shreiber and Darlene zetter Hour, were fourteen year old friends in the Fort Lauderdale area, and on June eighteenth, nineteen seventy five, they told their parents that they were going to spend the night at each other's houses, and it
was sort of a lie. They wanted to get out and walk around and have some fun, and they disappeared, and it was unclear as to whether they were trying to hitch hike, but they were found the following day again at a canal along US twenty seven, both shot to death and really no motive. Police interviewed all kinds of individuals, including their friends, and really there was nothing to go on except for a clue that was found that turned out to be a dead end. So they
were both shot in June. In June of nineteen seventy five.
You read about next about Robin Leslie Lash. She's fourteen years old and she vanishes on July eighth. Tell us what her condition is and is there any connection with these other bodies that are like you write, only five miles south where Belinda's at Rower and Barbara Streiber and Nancy Fox were discovered.
Well, yeah, Nanty Fox, Barbara Schreiber, and Darlene zetter Hour were found very close together in the canal near Us twenty seven, So it sort of seemed that there was a spot that someone or some people were deciding to dispose of bodies in this very remote area. But Robin, like miss zetter Hour and miss Shreiver, was only fourteen. She was walking on July eighth, nineteen seventy five, and
she disappeared. She was discovered two days later again in the canal near Us twenty seven, and they determined that she drowned, and it was unclear as to whether there was any foul play. So kind of like the death of Area A Tinker, a girl fourteen years old with no cars found drowned in a very very remote canal in far western Brower County.
And you write as well that it was suspicious because she drowned, but she was an excellent swimmer. Let's get to Ronnie Sue Gorlin, a twenty seven year old very integral part to this. Well, everyone's important this story, but she's especially important this story. July twenty second, she disappeared. What was different about her condition of her body? What had happened?
Well, Ronnie was one of the older victims. She was twenty seven years old. She was engaged to be married to a man in Pennsylvania, and she was back in South Florida with her family in Hollandale. And on June twenty second, nineteen seventy five, she visited her mother in the hospital, and actually she was going to visit her mother, she never showed up. They later found her car at the one hundred and sixty third Street mall with a
flat tire and she was gone. They eventually found her body nude out in the Canal and Dade County a few days later. And the connection with the subsequent murder of Alice Wrap, which we'll talked about in a minute, really told the police there was something sinister going on. There was somebody using this tactic to abduct women.
Now you write at this time, or pardon me, not at this time, but you write about twenty twenty that there's a police officer named Charles Mussoline or Mussoline believed that Ted Bundy was the best suspect in Ronnie's death. Is this because of the bite marks? Yeah.
The bite marks as well as the mo of approaching a woman in a parking lot offering to provide assistance definitely told this detective that Bundy needed to be considered as a possibility. There were bite marks on Ronnie Gorland. She had been bitten, choked and drowned. And those bite
marks eventually were compared. From what I can tell to Christopher Wilder and Ted Bundy, doesn't appear that there is anything more in the records that I reviewed as to whether there was a match or they couldn't compare them. But yes, the bite marks as well as them indicated that Ted Bundy was definitely a viable suspect.
Now, one week after Ronnie Gorlan was dumped in the canal, you say he struck again. The killers struck again with nearly the same method of killing. And we've talked about Elsie Rap twenty one years old. What was the near same method or identical method in your eyes and other people's minds.
Yeah, at least Rap was twenty one years old, and she was from New York and she really enjoyed South Florida. So she was working down here as a secretary. And on July thirtieth, nineteen seventy five, eight days after Ronnie Gorland was murdered, at Least left her home and never came back, and police eventually found her car again at the one hundred and sixty third Street Mall with a flat tire. She was found the following day and basically
the same canal as Ronnie Gorland. She also had been hit on the head and drowned, and there were marks on her that indicated this was a sexual assault. So the mo of flattening attire and offering assistance or somehow getting these women to come with the killer was almost identical bodies were placed in nearly the same location. Interestingly, they both had E license plates on their car, which
indicated that they were rentals or leases. But there were definitely similarities that that police picked up on, and their conclusions to this day were that those two were definitely related, as were some others, but these are definitely the strongest that are that are related.
M H and at least had also been sexually mutilated as well as well as Ronnie Gorland as well. That was one of the characteristics, wasn't it correct?
Alas Rap heard her genitals, we were stabbed, and and there was definitely a you know, conclusion by the Dade County Medical Examiner that the bite marks on Ronnie Gorland and the mutilation of Elise Rap connected them in terms of both being sex crimes, both being a very aggressive attacks, very sadistic attacks on these women. So yeah, there were there were definitely markers that were similar between both.
You say too, that the girls looked alike in appearance, but for some reason, maybe you can explain this, the composites drawings were not released publicly.
Yeah, the composits were never publicly released. They did law enforcement did take some of the composites, especially in the two flat tire murders, to people at the one hundred and sixty third Street Mall. They interviewed them, tried to get an idea of who may have been around when these when these murders occurred, but really nothing ever, at least publicly came of this in terms of descriptions or
possible vehicles. But there were some composites that were alluded to at least, but they were not released publicly.
Now the police are beginning of their investigation. Miami News offers a reward of six thousand dollars. Dozens right in describing their attacks being followed by suspicious men and flat tires and shopping centers and fall of nineteen seventy five, you're write brought more bodies, one particular Linda Ann Hamilton, sixteen years old. What were the particulars if there was any difference in this crime.
Well, Linda was found a bit further north in Florida, kind of a similar situation where a young girl was found murdered and dumped. Eventually, Gerald Stano, who was a Florida serial killer at the time who confessed later to forty one murders admitted in nineteen eighty one that he had killed Linda, but at the time police were looking anywhere, thinking that maybe this killer had moved north in Florida.
But eventually mister Stano did confess and he was executed in Florida in nineteen ninety eight.
You right by, there was another body in December nineteen seventy five. You say that by the end of nineteen seventy five, how many young women were connected or were murdered in that time span with only one.
Case salved, with only one case solved, there were at least thirteen victims, and we'll go through some more, but five were definitely linked, at least by the medical examiner as definitely being related. But there were thirteen victims in nineteen seventy five. In early nineteen seventy six in Dayden, Broward County.
Right, and for police, they did realize that there was the same person that killed Ronnie Gordon and at least rap is that correct.
That's correct. They definitely linked those two cases. And as the police were trying to put together put together the puzzle, they were looking at these other murders. All of them shared similar characteristics in terms of the victims, the locations that the bodies were found. These girls basically just disappeared. There was no evidence of any kind of altercation or abduction. These were not home invasions or anything of that sort.
It really seemed that, at least from my review of the case, this was somebody who was decent looking, a good talker, could get these women to become comfortable and come with him and before he murdered them. So they were definitely connecting the Gorelin and rap cases and putting these other killings that occurred very near in time all together as a series of murders.
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we were still in nineteen seventy five. You right that there was two full time detectives working the case, and you had Broward County and Dade County police and law enforcement, and disabling a victim's car was a definite mo among certain officers and law enforcement. And there was enough simil milarities you write to possibly linked five date in Broward County cases, perhaps even twelve. So how do police proceed and what happens in their investigation with the body count.
Well, police, really, to quote one of them, worked their butts off. There were tons of interviews. They basically contacted every registered sex offender, attempted to go through the case files and find some similarities and find some evidence that would lead them to a possible suspect or a person of interest. But really there was not a lot in terms of progress in these cases in nineteen seventy five, in nineteen seventy six, So it was a lot of
leg work. It was a lot of interviews, a lot of file review meetings, sort of hitting the ground and trying to find whether there were any witnesses to any of these abductions. There was a lot of work done, but there was not a lot of results for it.
You talk about Judith Austerling, the twenty two year old that was killed and thrown in the canal, A person confessed to the crime. Who was that? Tell us that incredible story?
Well, these as these canal murders were piling up. The first murder that really kind of set everything off was Judith Oasterling in January of nineteen seventy five. And by the end of nineteen seventy five, police, to their great credit, had been working these cases, you know, not putting them on the shelf, putting a lot of effort into solving them.
They went back to Judith's boss, to a place of employment at the Tiger Health Spa in Dade County, and under interrogation they eventually got a confession from Sue Jane Walter. She confessed that she and her boyfriend had had killed Judith and dumped her body in the canal next to US twenty seven as a result of a sexual assault that Judith attempted to resist.
Yes, so now you have victims. Marlene Anna Belly twenty six years old. She was last seeing October twenty six a twenty second Pardon me and reported missing October twenty fifth. What is the state of her Before we talk about Mary Coppola, Michelle Winters, and Anna Lie Marada Mims, what are some of the characteristics of their killings.
Well, Marlene was twenty six years old and she was married but estranged from her husband, and she had purchased a vacation package, so she came down from up north to have a short vacation in Fort Lauderdale, and she was missing from her hotel for several days until she was found on October twenty second, nineteen seventy five, out
in the field in western Broward County. She had been strangled with rope, and police suspected that she might have been abducted somewhere either on the beach or near the beach when she was out there. So again they found the body. They that she was strangled, but there really were no leads in that case either.
So you talk about Mary Coppola and Michelle Winters, what was their fate and if there was any difference in some of the conditions where they were found or the conditions of which they were killed.
Well, Mary was only fifteen years old. Mary Coppola, she was going to a teen counseling center. She had run away from home previously. Again nothing really too out of the ordinary in terms of her lifestyle, and she had a family at home. And on September second, nineteen seventy five, she disappeared on her way to that counseling center and she was not found until New Year's Day of nineteen
seventy six. She was near a canal, but the location was in Homestead, which is the far south of Bad County, so not in the same location as the other victims, but again fitting the age profile in the method of just simply disappearing while walking somewhere leads to the conclusion that she may have been talked into intogoing with someone.
You read about Michelle Winters seventeen. She was last seen December thirtieth, and her body was found January tenth, floating again in the Snake Creek Canal, strangled with her per strap around her neck, also a scarf around her neck. Many of these women are in the water clothed, but also there was something that it speaks to trophy keeping tell us about the jewelry of something's missing. Something remains.
Yes, in the Flat Tire murders of Ronnie Gorlin and the lease wrap. Ronnie was missing a sandal. Some other victims were missing ear rings that were found with one ear ring and the other one was missing, and small, small little items from the victims were unaccounted for. In Michelle's case, there was a ring that she always had that was taken and it sort of leads to the conclusion that these were these were definitely taken by whoever killed them as potential trophies or to remind them of
what they did. So Michelle had some had a missing ring she had gotten from her father. She never never took it off, and it was missing. So yeah, there's definitely evidence of somebody taking items from the victims when you leave them.
M And it seems that with many of these victims, there are differences in this and some of the people that were able to describe this perpetrator. You cite cases along in this investigation where a black man is involved, you know, so there is different descriptions of perpetrators and so many cases again involving the canal. You also have cases where disabling vehicles in different ways. So it seems
incredible to me. And as you go along in the book, then you start talking about possible suspects in this which include the very famous Tad Bundy, but also people like Stano and Christopher Wilder and other infamous serial killers that certainly possibly could have operated at the same time in the same area. So what are some of the things that if police are faced at again you talk about that after seventy six, that basically this thing went cold, shouldn't it right?
There was a lot of effort put into these cases in nineteen seventy five, and that dropped down in nineteen seventy six. The effort that was able to be put into these cases, and I think when you look back at the crime explosion in South Florida in the nineteen seventies, it was simply overwhelming. So there was only so much, so many resources that could be put towards these cases, and they went from hot to warm, to cooling off
and then eventually cold as they are today. So police were not able to devote endless time and resources as there were new cases rolling in constantly. So by the end of nineteen seventy six, these cases sort of remained a curiosity. What happened? Why did all of this happen? In nineteen seventy five, and they were no closer to getting their suspect than they were at the beginning, with the exception of Judethos Stilling's case.
Now, as time went on, there were suspects in this case in new chronicle, all of the viable suspects that police considered. But tell us about the case of the Kirky case as you call it. In nineteen seventy five, sal Leon, a cop, had gone to the scene of a woman named Kirky's mutilated body in the canal and took photos. Tell us about this incredible suspect and this case of this young woman thrown in the canal.
Yes, Judith Cursey was murdered in nineteen seventy seven, excuse me, nineteen seventy eight, and she was found also in the canal near Us twenty seven. She was a bit older, she was thirty two, but there were signs that she was sexually mutilated and definitely a sex crime. And in nineteen eighty five a former police officer named sal Lyon was showing photographs of miss Cursey's body to various women.
It was got him in trouble. But it turns out in nineteen seventy eight he went to the scene of miss Cursey's the recovery of her body and had some photographs. So it was a very bizarre incident as to why he would be displaying these these photographs. Nothing ever came of it. He was never charged with anything, you know, related to any homicides, but it was just a very
bizarre incident. One of several in terms of suspects in this case, because the police would get a sort of a will of somebody being involved, but it never never turned into anything concrete.
Like many people, and we talked about the East Area rapists, Golden State Killer case that advances in DNA near the turn of the century interested police enough to say that possibly some of these cases could be opened up again with the latest DNA technology. Tell us a little bit about that hope and what DNA may find in this particular case.
Well, yeah, the Golden State Killer case when it was when D'Angelo was arrested in twenty eighteen, really shocked me that something that old could be solved. And in these cases, based upon reviewing the medical examiner's reports, it appears that there could be a biological evidence that was taken, whether it's been preserved nerve properly or what the condition of it.
I still don't know at this point, but there is definitely an indication that these crimes were treated as sex crimes and they went through the standard sex crime evidence gathering techniques in the nineteen seventies. So assuming that those samples are still preserved, I would think and hope that something can be done with DNA, perhaps similar to what eventually caught Joseph DiAngelo.
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Besides the incredible amount of victims and the differences between the victims and the different areas where these victims were attacked.
In some cases, he also had suspicion that this killer traveled somewhere else and committed crimes in other areas, and those there are crimes that share similarities to the Flat Tyre murders and the Canal murders in that you look at and we mentioned earlier about the infamous Ted Bundy being considered in a couple of these murders or many of these murders, but also some other infamous serial killers
were considered, including Gerard Schaeffer and Steno Christopher Wilder. Tell us about some of these people and why they were considered and in what way.
Yeah, Christopher Wilder and Ted Bundy were the two two names that came up in the Medical Examiner's notes in the Flat Tire cases. Christopher Wilder was a serial killer who began his crime spree in nineteen eighty four, which ended with his suicide. But he killed a number of
girls across the country. And he was similar to Bundy in that he would be very presentable and would present himself as a talent agent or a modeling agent and was able to talk women into coming with him, and he worked and lived in Broward County in the nineteen seventies. During that time, there were rape accusations. There was a kidnapping case that was brought against him, kidnapping a sixteen
year old and a seventeen year old. So at least by nineteen eighty Wilder was moving towards more serious crimes. So he was there in the nineteen seventies and definitely deserves attention, and they did give him attention. From what I've seen in the reports.
What about Ted Bundy. You talk about an officer that was asking for specifics from Ted Bundy, and Ted Bundy then said to them, said to this person, if I get convicted of the Leech case, Leech murder, I will tell you what happened from that agreement, what was gained, if anything from that.
Well, Ted Bundy is a very interesting suspect. A lot of people don't know that he had been in Miami in nineteen sixty eight when he was twenty two years old, as a delegate for Nelson Rockefeller's nomination of Republican nominations. So he had been to Miami in the nineteen sixties
when he was captured and tried in Miami. In nineteen seventy nine, a detective who investigated the flat tire murders went to go speak with with Bundy at his jail cell in Day County, and based on the detective's recollection of the event, it seemed like Bundy had some understanding and it struck a nerve with him regarding the flat tire murders, and he said, yes, I'll speak with you about that if I'm convicted. But nothing ever came of
it afterwards. And we all know that that Bundy, especially during his time in prison, like to play games with police. So whether there was any veracity behind that statement, we'll probably never know, but there was definitely interest in Bundy in the flat tire murders. Also because of the bite marks that were found on Ronnie Gorlin.
There were more than the one police officer though that believed that Bundy was responsible. Just other than the bite mark, was there any other reason why?
Well, The two detectives, who are still still alive, both to this day believe that that Ted Bundy was fit the profile to a t. They both believe that the same motors apparanda that Bundy used in in his Western United States murders was almost identical to what happened to Elise rap and Ronnie Gorland when their cars were disabled. Being able to talk a woman into coming with them definitely fit Bundy's profile. And from the medical examiner reports,
they did look at Bundy based upon those bite marks. Now, whether that that indicated that he was involved or not, he always denied to the end that there was there was nothing in Miami that he was guilty of. So, but these detectives believed to this day that it was likely him.
You include and we didn't talk about this, but in the beginning of the book you talk about the gold socks strike and the Miami strangler. Why before we talked about the Canal murders and the flat tire murders. Did you include these crimes in this book? Sure?
Well, it really set the scene as far as the crime explosion in South Florida in the nineteen seventies, before the Canal murders and the Flat tire murders, there was a series of six stranglings, all of which involved a sock being strangled, being tied around a woman's neck. So there were a number of victims, and that occurred in nineteen seventy three. Proceeding that was an incident known as the Miami Strangler. From nineteen sixty four to nineteen seventy
they were about ten victims in those cases. They all were identified as being similar and being connected, but never conclusively. And I think that's a limitation based on the forensic evidence gathering tools that were available in the nineteen seventies. But definitely patterns of murders over a distinct period of time were identified even before the flat tire and canal murders occurred.
You write about the flat tire murders, and you include, interestingly in the book this add tension and that there are many other criminals that are that are caught, that are arrested, that are suspected, that are that get of that escape. But you illustrate that with some of these
perpetrators showing, say a police badge. So when you talk about the flat tire murders and the disablement of these vehicles, it comes to mind Hillside strangler and and so that sort of mo is do you think that the police ruse might have been part of these abductions can.
Be definitely, definitely, I think that's a possibility. I think a good illustration is Ted Bundy's arrest in nineteen seventy five in Utah when he attempted to abduct and murder Carol Durranch. What he did was walked up to her and told her her car had been broken into and she needed to come with him because he's an undercover cop and we're going to fill out a report. She eventually asked him when she got a little suspicious, do
you have any identification? And he flashed a badge at her, and of course it was a fake badge, and she continued to go with him. So I think in these cases in South Florida, there's definitely the possibility that these young girls that were, you know, some of them fourteen years old, fifteen seventeen, would respond to somebody in a position of authority or pretending to be in a position of authority to get them to go with them.
You write about the flat tire murders and the canal murders, you say that they may be entirely unrelated or or not tell us about this conundrum.
Yes, and that's really the puzzle of this of this case is which which victims are connected and how the Day County Medical Examiner believe based on the on the medical evidence that five of them were connected. I think the two strongest that were connected were Elise rap and Ronnie Gorland. Those were nearly identical crimes. Both cars at the one hundred and sixty third Street mall flat tires
and found eight days apart. So regardless of how many cases are connected and how strong, I definitely believe that there was somebody in South Florida at this time with the intent of abducting and murdering women.
You know, when I look at all the similarities between some of these serial killers and you want to just chalk it up to coincidence. But is there a possibility that they read the news like everyone else and there are even more avid fans of true crime reporting. Would they be influenced, would they take clues, would they want to be included? Would they try to throw the scent off themselves by having similarities to these known killers that are being hunted? Is there any of that in this.
I think that that I think you put it very well and it reminds me of of Joseph DiAngelo who was a police officer, and he knew what jurisdictions to go in, He knew the procedures for criminal investigations, and he used that to his advantage to do what he did and invade capture. I think something similar may have occurred in these cases, where like you said, some he was very aware of what clues were being gathered, who
was being interviewed. And I think also another factor is perhaps there was a knowledge that putting bodies in water is a good way to get rid of of some forensic evidence.
So yeah, I think that.
There was definitely somebody that was very sophisticated. It wasn't it wasn't a psychopath, It wasn't a deranged person, which some of the media at the time kind of tried to play this up as it was really a cold calculating person like a like a Bundy or you know some of these other other serial killers that that plan things out and are very careful about what they're doing.
Mm hm. You talk about the DNA technology possibilities, do you know the status of that that there isn't enough as you write, enough biological enough biological evidence to be able to conduct DNA test And do you know the status of that testing.
Well, that's a great question, and I've dug plenty in terms of trying to get the medical or the evidence from the police. And when I was doing this, it was during the COVID epidemic and things really flowed down quite dramatically, so there was a limit on what was available. But I definitely think that some of these some of these cases have evidence that can still be tested, and I think that's reflected also in some of the cases like James Rose, who was recently confessed to a nineteen
seventy five murder in twenty eighteen based upon DNA. So they're doing it. Law enforcement is looking at this DNA route as a way to solve these cases.
You say that even if DNA technology cannot capture this killer, and of course we get back to the purpose of your book and very fascinating in depth analysis, what else can happen in your mind? You talk about that maybe something's in someone's attic that they might not have considered before. Tell us what might happen in your mind from this.
What might happen is is somebody who knows something may be triggered and remember an event, a person, an item, that may be significant that maybe they forgot about or discarded, you know, in years past, and they may come forward
even if there is no DNA evidence. To at least have these cases in the public discourse and having people look at them, I think is important, similar to what happened with Joseph di'angelo, where there were people that were pressing this case and saying that, you know, we're not giving up on this, and we'll do what we can, whether we're a sort of armchair detectives or just the general public, to solve these cases. They're not forgotten.
Yeah, it was very interesting in real time to be able to interview detectives that were involved in the East Area rapist case right from the very beginning, interview them again when it looked like something was happening with the FBI in terms of actually solving this case, which was seemed incredible. It seemed almost unbelievable. And then speaking to those people involved, those detectives after he was captured, it was just amazing, really that breakthrough to be able to
do something so incredibly it seemed almost unbelievable. I think to people in the true crime genre, I think, for sure, certainly and law enforcement.
Well, yeah, that day in twenty eighteen when he was arrested, my jaw hit the floor and I was stunned, and I scrambled to find what I could online and just just it blew me away because it was so long ago, forty plus years and the methods that they used to track him down, we're we're just incredibly fascinating. And I think it goes to show that law enforcement is working behind the scenes and a lot of what we don't know.
You know, there may be things that are going on that we're not aware of, but I think keeping the public eye on things is always a good idea.
And I think you're right too that the case itself did so much for law enforcement morale and the FBI's reputation and just gave so much hope to crime solving and the promise of DNA, which has been remarkable, really
comparative of all all the other forensics procedures available. So I think there are so many dedicated people that can't let these cases go, very much like yourself, where you've you've invested in this investigation and you would like to see some dramatic results, and so I hope the very best for you. I want to thank you very much Michael for coming on and talking about the Flat Tire Murders,
Unsolved Crimes of a South Florida serial killer. For people that might want to take a look, is there an Amazon page? Facebook page? Tell us how they might take a look at this book? More sure, the book.
Is available on Amazon. There's also an ebook version. I'm on Twitter at at Flat Murders. I have read it and Facebook, so if people want to send me comments, I'm certainly available there, and you know, I look forward to hearing from people, and I hope this book, you know, is something that brings these cases to the public light.
Yes, it's an admirable endeavor. Thank you so much, Michael P. Burns. The Flat Tire Murders, Unsolved Crimes of the South Florida I'm the real killer. It's been fascinating. Thank you so much, Michael. You have a great evening.
Thank you, Thank you Dan, you too.
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