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Maybe you are now listening to True Murder The most shocking killers in true crime History and the authors that have written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening. On February fifth, two thousand and seven, Charity Lee Bennett was working her shift at Buffalo Wild Wings in Abilene, Texas, when two police officers came to inform her that her four year old daughter Ella was dead and her thirteen year old son Paris had killed her. He had convinced the babysitter she should go home, and afterwards entered the room of his sister. She was beaten
and strangled and stabbed seventeen times. On March twentieth, two thousand and eighteen, Film Rise released the chilling documentary The Film The Family I Had, which we recounts the tragic and unimaginable story of Charity Lee Bemmett and how a
family struggles to move forward. Part true crime, part mystery Charity Lee, mother of both the victim and killer, relives her agony in her Journey of love ten years later in this featured documentary that also presents multiple and conflicting accounts, leaving the audience questioning where the ultimate truth and an accountability lie. A documentary of featuring this evening is The Family. I had an engrossing look at an unthinkable crime with
my special guest producer, director, and filmmaker Katie Green. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for green to this interview. Katie Green, Hi, thank you, it's good to be here. Thank you very much. Very powerful documentary. Let's get to you. Co produced this and directed this with a partner. Tell us about your partner and tell us about the genesis of this. How long ago did you plan you and your partner to do this? Tell us a little bit about the beginnings of the family I had.
Sure, Well, yeah, I'm one half of a co directing team. The other half, Karlie Ruben, and I have been working together for almost I think ten years now, so we first directed together on our first documentary called The Deadmother's Club, which looked at women who'd lost their mothers when they were young and looking at the following them through various crossroads of their life and looking at how they were
dealing with that. And it was towards the end of that I think, I think the film was complete when we became very interested in juvenile justice. And I think at the time there was a lot of stuff going on in the Supreme Court with the end of juvenile life without Parle, and there was lots of sort of lots of stuff that was very interested in grabbing our attention. And we we actually, through another partner, that sort of brother company of ours and that was doing another documentary
on death penalty, came across Charityle. She'd written a blog on juvenile justice and you know, we really love the way that she wrote and really fascinated by her. And then as we learned more about the other foundation, we found out her personal story. So we immediately called her up and said, look, we're interested in this. You know, understand you have a son in prison, and you know, she just was really open to talking to us straight away,
and yeah, it was we were always to say. For us, it was an interesting transition from looking at women who've lost their mothers to actually, you know, looking at a mother who'd lost their children, and it was kind of
a reversal of grief. And we've always been very fascinated in families and family stories and how families overcome you know, trauma and tragedy and dysfunction, and we were just immediately really drawn to Charity, who at the time was i think in the early months of pregnancy with her son Phoenix, and so we thought, this is a really interesting time, she's in this interesting transitional stage as well. So we
began filming with her. I think it was two thousand and thirteen, maybe yeh, twenty thirteen, and yeah, we only just finished up obviously last year, so it was a good few years in the making. And yeah, as we at first met Charity and spoke to her, and then as you know, we were speaking to her, we realized that there were so many other parts of this story. We were originally looking at trying to make her story one of several stories as a look at the sort
of juvenile justice system as a whole. But as the sort of layers started to come away and we understood the depth of what was going on in this family, we thought, actually, this is a whole, separate, unique story that is kind of worthy of its own platform, and that's when we started to speak to Paris and eventually to Kyla as well, So the story sort of came together that way.
In the introduction, I talk about the Paris stabbing his sister seventeen times and beating and strangling her, and you talk about your initial intent with this was to examine the juvenile justice system going into this. How much did you look at this in terms of his story and what the police had said, again, his culpability, his his guiltiness.
How far did you look I mean, what you look at in terms of that story, and how confident were you that you could still have this aim to your documentary once you realized the factual information of this case.
Welleah.
I mean, obviously we came into it looking at, you know, examining juveniles who who were selling probably long sentences, and and Paris obviously stood out. It's a very unique type
of store in the unique unique type of case. And our feeling was always that, you know, we've always felt that there was some reform needed in the juvenile justice arena, and we you know, of course, we appreciated that Paris was a was a it was going to be more more of a challenge for an audience to kind of get around because you're trying to sort of make it a plea for something that you know, people, it's a very it's a very complicated story in a very complicated case.
But I think for that reason we were like, no, this is this is why a story like this should be examined with you know, with the through the prism
of juvenile justice. You know, because everybody, every child, we believe, deserves the opportunity for the best possible care even if they do something wrong, even if they do something bad, and and that's the challenge of you know, society, and so that's for us, Like we we appreciated it with a more complicated angle, but we really felt that it was it wasn't something we wanted to shy away from because it wasn't going to be easy and it was going.
To be hard for people to swallow.
That was the reason why we thought, no, that for those reasons, that's why we need to really be you know, giving this a platform and opening it up and have a dialogue about this and talking about how this does fit into a conversation about give large justice reform what we do feel justice looks like in this kind of story, and also brings in lots of other really interesting sides of you know, what it's like for a family when you have a loved one a child who's incarcerated but
apparently is trying to co parent with a system with an institution like a prism and complications of that, And of course the mental health as well is also a huge, a huge factor in the incarcerated population. You know, whether or not those needs are addressed and whether or not whether or not the justice system is really equipped to handle that. There's also another question that wants to bring up.
So again, I mean, as we sort of were talking about before, I think this was a film that offered us an opportunity to ask a lot more questions than necessarily give answers. That that was what drew us to this story.
Before we explain some of this story, let's introduce the characters that you had to work with and did an incredible job of just using those few characters. So please introduce the characters that you did interview for this and make up the bulk of this documentary.
Sure, I mean, yes, that was a challenge here. We really sent her on. Specifically, one character who's Charity, who's the mother whose thirteen year old son murdered his four year old sister. And Charity was the first person that we started speaking to, and she's the kind of the one who we feel in the film is the person you're kind of following and kind of rooting for a
little bit. Her son, Paris, who is now I think he's twenty three now, is in prison in Texas, and we have limited access to him obviously to his situation, but he does appear the film on occasion, but he's, you know, he very he very much is a character who who I think people used to He takes up a lot of space, even if he's not in it
that much, if you know what I mean. And then Kyla, who is Charity's mother, Paris's grandmother, who Charity and her mother were estranged when we first met Charity, and as we sort of learned in the film, there's a whole other sort of backstory going on with her and and her and Charities relationship. So it's really really only have
free characters. And we do meet Cayman, who is Charities that sister, Kyla's youngest daughter, and we do meet obviously Phoenix, who is Charity's little boy, because I said she was pregnant when we first met her and started filming with her. Ands and we follow you know, the first few years of his life. And yes, and a couple of charities
friends who are in and out. But but really the film centers on those three characters, you know, the kind of three generations of this one family, the son, the mother, and the grandmother.
You talked about the and you do feature in this documentary very very interestingly the fascinating character of the mother, Kyla, But you also alluded to the background, the very very interesting background, and then the questions that arise from that in terms of is there a genetic predisposition? So tell us a little bit about some of the facts surrounding her mother. That very interesting at least to consider in factor into this story.
Sure, well know how much I want to give away, but what we learn about Charity's mother, and as I say at the beginning of the film, you know, they were estranged and their relationship was very complicated. And we learn that Charity's father, Kyla's husband had also died mysteriously when Charity was a little girl. And Kyler, her mother was was a it was tried but acquitted for his murder.
So there is this other kind of you know, interesting twist that was very unexpected, and we knew about this kind of early on, and we weren't sure how much we were going to try and bring into this, but we sort of felt that it was necessary to give a bit of background context.
So, yeah, that's that is a sort.
Of something that hangs over I suppose in the background. We don't go into that murder, and we don't, as I said, we don't provide any further answers or investigation into that, but it was something that we felt was, you know, an important part of the context of understanding the family and also the tensions between the mother and daughter.
You also talk about, and you also, pardon me, you feature so many amazing home movie footage of Ella and interacting also with Paris and very affectionately interacting as they're much younger and she's a newborn or very very young and then you also have all of again, all of
this home footage. It's very very powerful considering that I was dead and the situation with Paris obviously being her killer, how important was it because I think this documentary has a different look to use more of that footage and again make less big and distinctive statements with the footage itself that you consider for this documentary.
Yeah, I mean, obviously, you know, with this story, you know, yeah, there is this one big character who we're all aware of but we never get to meet, and that is Ella, and we Yeah, that's one of the one of the things about working with a family. Of course, you do have access to this amazing archive in Charity is always incredibly open and generous with all the family archives, and yeah, it gave us an opportunity to I think I think for this it was such a shocking story and it's
so sort of unrelatable. I think when people first hear it, they think, God, you know, I can't even imagine, And of course, you know, no one would want to would you want to be able to imagine that? But I think it was important for us to be able to use this archive to say, yeah, this is a really extraordinary,
incredible and complicated, shocking story. But ultimately, this is a family and they do normal family things, and I think there's something really relatable about the archives, you know, just it sort of I think it was important for us to be able to make a connection for the audience with this family and show that, you know, before this tragedy and trauma, you know, this was just a sort of normal family in so many ways, as much as any family as normal. So yeah, it was it was
one way of kind of doing that. And also I think because Paris is someone who we have limited access to and obviously is someone who you know, I think of course people come to him with their ideas, their preconceptions of who he is and what he's like, and it was important for us to try and show that,
you know, he was someone before this as well. And again like try and and try and make him in some way a sort of relatable character as well, because I think it was I wanted to share the truth of everybody, and I think to try and show the truth, you have to sort of have an understanding of someone before, during, and after, and that was our way of trying to do that.
In this documentary, you could have had Charity Lee have a completely different response to the killer of her daughter, that being her son. And again there are things that she says later about this very very complex emotional response to her son that's incarcerated, So you do show footage of them visiting, and again this trying to keep her family together and move forward with her family. And that's very,
very fascinating. But what is her opinion? What is her feeling about her son and considering the murder of her daughter, those are complex feelings, but what is her sense of feelings towards her son now that he's locked up?
Well, I mean, firstly, I mean I don't feel like it, you know, I don't. I can't answer that. Any charity can answer that. But you know, during the process of filming her, of course, that was something that we've felt all the time. You know, we're conscious of she's constantly battling with you know, she loves this is her child, and she loves him, and she you know, her mother has unconditional love for her children and and you know the mother, she's no different, and so she's she struggles
with that. But she also, you know, obviously it's horrified by what he did and wants him to be helped. And I think that was I think that's a hard it's a very hard question for me to answer. Obviously, is not being charity, But I think that was kind of at the heart of what why we found this story so fascinating on what we try to sort of show throughout the film is that she's constantly bad sling
with that. And I think there were times when you know, we would we would be speaking to her about Paris, and you could tell that she had, you know, just this love that she you know, she would miss him and she'd be wanting to miss she hadn't seen him in a while, and she'd want to see him, and she'd still her baby. And then she'd have times when she's really angry with him, and then she'd have times when she really needed distance from him. And I think,
I think she feels all those things. And I think that's why this was a really interesting sorry for us to follow, because I think it showed all the all the wide spectrum of human emotions and sort of nuanced feelings that someone would have in that situation. It's not black and white, it's it's a big gray area. And yeah, that's that's the truth. I think of where where things are for her, it's somewhere somewhere along that at any different time, and it changes all the time.
What did Charity want and her mother Kylo want in terms of a result, in terms of court. He said, the defense lawyer pled him not guilty, But what did they want for him? Where did they want to see him go and be dealt with?
How sure? I mean yeah, I mean I really That was also a line that for me was really powerful when we were looking at the juvenile justice issue, because I think Charity says this great line about the defense attorney just wanted him to be not guilty, prosecution just wants him to be guilty. And I think she said someone should be giving it down about what happens to this kid. And obviously, as the parent, she cares, but she felt there should be another kind of also was
a victim. It was difficult for her to take on that role as well. I mean, I think they would have liked for him there to be more more mental health support, more intervention to try and figure out what exactly had gone on and how best help Paris well, you know, whilst also recognizing that he needed to be kept away from from Charity and obviously punished for what
he did to Ella. So that's sort of a you know, a much bigger question that I guess, I guess for them they have one answer, But what should society do with with a case like this? What is the right thing to do? And I think there has to be a more holistic approach to it, not just kind of looking at Okay, you're either innocent or you're guilty, and if you're guilty, then you get this, and if you're innocent,
then you get there. In reality, you know, we're all complicated, and there's especially with kids, I mean, there's this huge gray area in the middle of how much can we help, what kind of help and for how long? So I think they would have liked more mental health intervention.
The idea too that she was looking for answers, Charity was looking for answers and then she was given a diagnosis and so and very very interesting part of this documentary is the statement she says about when she reaches out to the profilers and the FBI. The again the famous part beats the doctor. But what is the diagnosis?
And then what does Charity feel about that diagnosis? And as filmmaker, what does that have to do in your mind with mental illness or the issue or the controversy or the question of mental illness.
In this documentary, are you referring to the I think it was one of the part deep doctors that she describes a tot her that she should she should have run and hide.
And I think that, you know what a shocking and terrifying diagnosis to get obviously about your child, but also you know what an unrealistic response. I mean, very few
mothers would just run and hide from their children. So I think I think, you know, in a way, maybe that's it's it's also opening up some sort of flaws with them, that system of like how how we diagnose someone if we if someone gets this diagnosis, do we just put them over here and say, God, I got to get away from as far away from you as possible but you or is there a way to actually work with people to try and you know, create some
sort of understanding, better understanding and also hopefully improve on those complicated relationships with family as well. I mean, we're not doctors, and I wouldn't claim to be able to to say what should happen or what could have happened
or anything like that. I think, if anything, it maybe just opens up more questions about complicated mental health issues, personality disorders and the kind of taboo of that and being able to talk about it more and have a better understanding and figure out more realistic ways and healthier ways for us to deal with people who have to do suffer from these issues.
Well, why I mentioned this is because the diagnosis that you got through the psychopathy checklist was that he was a social path or a psychopath social path. And with that, it's with part deeds saying you'd better go take your money and run. It seemed to be to say pretty
clearly that there is no cure for a psychopath. But then we have the issue of you say, mental illness, but also how responsible is someone at thirteen years of age when they're considered by many countries and judicial systems as a as a child?
Absolutely? Yeah, I mean this is one of the very very sort of interesting and you know, ultimately the kind of fundamental question that we're asking, no matter what kind of evidence or no matter what you could stack on Harris, sort of course he is responsible. Can he be held fully accountable? Can any child at thirteen be held fully accountable? Even if he is you know, I don't want to put labels on him, but even if you know he
does suffer from from mental health problems. You know, that's not his fault either, So how it's a very big complicated question. I wouldn't I wouldn't be able to answer that. I'm afraid I think it's very I think I think the label thing is something that in a way kind of makes people okay. So that that and we can you know, that's something that's horrible and we don't understand
that anything. Just put it over there, and I don't know if it brings us any closer to really making us feel any best roposity that because give us first in year ork for what she is and you know, without help, and what good does that do either.
You talk about the unconditional love that Charity Lee has decided to, you know, to deal with her son with with this unconditional love rather than any other way of dealing this with this, but she is still conflicted. You talk about the new addition to her family, this Phoenix, and then again her conflicted emotions regarding visiting her son she had received this diagnosis, so that she is again conflicted with her thoughts about the safety of her child.
And we talk about what she does in terms of something cathartic for her and you and you feature this as well, that the advocacy that she is doing to try to deal with this issue in her life.
The Ella Foundation. Yeah, is that what we're referring to. Yes, Yeah, I mean I think she Yeah, I think she Charity is someone who really wanted to try and see some good to come from from this awful tragedy. And yeah, she set up the Allow Foundation, which is a nonprofit that supports families that are going through similar situations and provides afflicacy and really tries to mediate between victor and offenders,
which is obviously the position that Charity has. And I mean, I think I think she's very honest about the fact that as both a sort of victim and the person who has who unconditionally loves the perpetrator of this crime, you know, she is conflicted, and she goes back and forth, and she's she has times when she has a lot of compassion I think in some ways for uh, for Paris,
you know, people in prison in general. And she's really got into I think she became very political through this, and she did a lot of anti death penalty stuff and I think she's she's a really wonderful advocate for justice reform. But at the same time, of course, you know, does understand the complexity of also being a victim and being afraid. I think in that way, she's a really amazing person to be talking on both and talking on
these issues because she sort of understands both. As a human being, she seems to have compassion, but as you know, a mother, she's also she knows what it's like to lose someone.
You worked with her extensively, obviously she's featured in this. It's remarkable her candidness because as if you talk about in this documentary that in the place that they were in Abilene, Texas a very religious place, you say, with far more churches than anywhere else, that people weren't so shy giving their opinions. Were they after this in that community?
Yeah, I mean that's something that I think you can relate to. You know, if you're in a small town and something terrible happens to you, how many people are able to offer love and support and compassion, and you know how many people judge? And yes, of course that's something that she went through, and she's incredibly honest, and I think and she sort of goes through her life I think wearing her heart and her.
Sleeves, I mean, you know.
Her tattoos, which are all very visible, which are all the story of you know, telling telling another story in itself. I think she she always says that she believes that secrets make you sick, and through telling your story into sort of the sort of therapy of telling you, telling
your story can heal you. And I think she, I think she really believes that, And I think I really we really owe her her candidness and her honesty and her openness to I think she she really believes that there is a greater understanding to be to be gotten through through telling her story, and and the people hear her story and relate to it or not relate to it. You know, maybe some people hear it and you can't relate to it at all. Many of us, you know,
of course can't. So I think I think that's a It was a really it was really great that she that she had that opinion, and for us it was as filmmakers be working with someone who's who wants to get their story out there and has their own kind of belief about it being healing, that was really really powerful.
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Enter my code murder at checkout. You talked about the incredible cooperation that Charity Lee exhibited in this documentary for your ability to be able to make this powerful documentary, but also that she felt it was important for this story to be told and just like her advocacy work, cathartic and something that she needs to do to help other people to see some purpose of not a purpose,
but some meaning to Ella's death. How long is this documentary span in terms of time from the time you How long does it cover in terms of time?
Sure, as we said, we met Charity when she was I think about five or six months pregnant with Phoenix, So that's always useful to always kind of tell from that. But so we've started filming in twenty thirteen and We've finished filming in twenty beginning of twenty seventeen, and so yeah, that's four years. And we I mean, obviously we were filming, you know, on and off, sometimes more than others, and they go through various various moves and changes throughout that time.
But yeah, four years, which seems to be on average how long we tend to spend on a future documentary.
Right, we talked about we really didn't talk about his sentence, but he received a sentence where he is eligible for parole at the age of twenty thirty three years of age, so twenty years before his first parole eligibility. He also talked about his incredible IQ of one hundred and forty one, so he's always a very very bright guy. You do offer, again, not so conclusionary things in this documentary, so it's up to the viewer to sort of determine and again more
questions and answers. It certain certainly seems. But you talk about you feature Kayla, and you figure and you feature Charity too talking about Paris. Is any indication that there was something wrong with Paris before this fatal incident? Yeah, again, you don't answer any You don't there aren't big conclusions, but tell us a little bit about that investigation and what you offer in this documentary.
Sure, well, I think you know, the first thing that people ask and still, you know, when we talk about the story, when we say, oh, this is this film about a mother who's overcoming her person year son murdering his four year old sister, of course the first question people asked is why why did he do it? And as you know, of course that was the first thing
that we asked. And I think it was really important we have one one point in the film when you know, we actually just got charities which she was just saying, these are the things that people ask me all the time, because I think it's kind of when everybody's lips straight away, like, you know, why why did he do it? And I think it became pretty clear after our first interview with her that that was not going to be an answer. You know, we weren't going to get a straightforward answer.
Of course, if if there was a clear answer as to why he did it, or if they're in some very clear indication that he was going to do it, you know, it's just not it's just not you know, the reality of this and so we I mean we sort of obviously we were interested in what Paris was like before this happens, and you sort of do rack your brain because you think, gosh, now, how could how could you not have seen that this, that someone could be capable of this, because we like to think that
that would be something it's so awful that it would be really glaringly obvious, you know, and you know, of course, and I of course for Charity, of course, she didn't have any indication or any cleure idea that he would be capable of this. So we're sort of left, you know, with following her who who's also asking herself all these questions as well. And I think I think it was important for us to try and show that there had been some investigation into that, to try to understand it,
to try and understand why. But you know, again, I think if he keeps saying this is not a film that was going to be able to offer a nice clean okay, put that away and file that under why and and move on, I think this is a very nuanced story. And you know, we ask Paris, you know why, and I don't think he's able to really know yet either. And hopefully that's something he might be able to at some point in his life be able to understand better.
But I mean, as he actually says, prison is not really a place that offers you much opportunity to sort of sit around and ask yourself why, because it's actually a place that, for him, certainly the way that he has described to us, was just somewhere that you're trying to survive and you can't really afford to let yourself become too vulnerable by getting too deep in your thoughts.
So yeah, there was you know, there was some investigation, but as we learned pretty early, there was no easy answers. In the story, you.
Talk about mental illness and no easy answers, but you also talk about that Charity says that when she was pregnant with Ella that Paris wasn't happy and she was concerned, and you don't. Again, it's not a full investigation of that statement, but that is a very dramatic or interesting or powerful statement on its own in terms of reasoning. And you also show that at Charity lost her father at five years old. There's no father in Paris's life, or at least not as a as a raw model
or a functioning father figure in his life. Is this lack of attention. Is this an important issue, the center being the center of attention for his mother's affection. Is this isn't an issue that's brought up in this documentary.
Well yeah, I mean, firstly, I think I would say, like, yeah, Charity does say that when she was pregnant, it's just that Paris wasn't happy about that. But you know, I think I think a lot of kids who have that time have their mothers to themselves. You know, I think he was eight eight or something by the time Ala
was born. You know, you have all that time to yourself, and I think I think it's pretty normal, from what I've want to understand, for you know, the oldest child to feel a little bit Yeah, I guess threatened is a strong word, but you know, to feel a bit uncomfortable. I guess when there's a new baby on the way, because you're still like, oh wait, you know, I'm not
the center anymore. That's that's very normal. And I don't think it would be fair to say, well, you know that that was a sign, because I think that any you know, any mother, I think what she actually does go on to say is you know, as soon as soon as she was born and Paris met her, she can fell in love with her, and he was a wonderful brother. So you know, I think, yeah, you can sort of find these little signs along the way. Yeah, he didn't have a sort of strong father's figure around.
Lots of children don't, and I don't think that. I think, yeah, of course there are these little things and maybe if you put them all together and you sort of build a case, yeah, of course, they all may play their little roles. But I think, you know, lots of children may feel a bit you know, neglected when a new
baby comes along. Lots of kids grow up without positive uh father figure, with parental figures in their in their lives, and not all of them would commit a crime like this, So I think I think it could be a bit dangerous. I think that's kind of why we wanted to steer away from that. We felt like, you know, I'm not really sure if this is it's relevant to a certain extense of understanding this particular story, but I don't know if it really you know, says anything. Either way.
You profile and feature the relationship between Charity and her mother, Kyla, and they are not on the same page in terms of very much in this documentary are they they don't agree on much.
No, I mean they have a very complicated relationship. We learned that, you know, even from I think Charity's teenage years, they started to they sort of sort of butt heads a little bit and have a complicated relationship, and I think, you know, I think their relationship continued to be to be complicated though they have they are in a much
better place now own All families have complicated relationships. A very strong, intelligent, strong willed women as well, like sort of matriarchs of their of their own domains, and I think that could also bring about tension. But you know, their relationship, as you learn in the film, is has got you know, very difficult and complicated at times. But also they seem to have a they also have time for them. You know, we were with them where they've really got along and they seem to have a very
similar sense of humors, incredibly bright. Everyone in this family is incredibly intelligent and great appreciation for history and literature and make these sort of very wonderful, interesting references that you know, kind of beyond Carlie and myself at the time, they also have a very strong bond.
Yeah, when Paris speaks about the motivation for this, there's different snippets in this that he talks about the day itself. He talks about his feelings that day. It seems genuine, it doesn't seem rehearsed, it seems honest, and he does say some things later about it seems that this could have been in response to his mother neglecting him, or it's some in terms of punishment. What is his official
position on responsibility with this? How does he talk about his responsibility in this, and how does he in general? What does he how does he come across Paris?
You know, much like his mother was kind of you know, he was open, polite, you know, very clear in interviews he was you know, it was it was it was always very interesting and insightful to meet with him and have interviews with him. I mean, I think Paris actually is quite clear that he doesn't blame any one thing. I mean, I think he sort of says, yeah, it wasn't I felt neglected by this, and yeah, I was
annoyed by that. And he says that on the day he felt all day that he was angry that day and he wanted to hurt somebody, But he also says he was a coward and that you know, anything could have stopped him at any moment, and admits that what
he did was cowardly. So he does take responsibility. I think he's I think, as I said, I'm not sure if he's had the opportunity yet to or at least to articulate it to us yet to really deeply understand the sort of psychological reasons why he did what he did, but he can he certainly takes responsibility that and appreciate that it's a horrific thing to do.
You feature in this documentary to the artwork of Paris Lee Bennett. Why is that and what does that constitute? What are some of the examples that people will see? What is the subject matter of these this artwork?
Yeah, well, I think I mean, as I've said before, I think our limited access to Paris, but you know, obviously his large part that he plays in this film. But you know, when you be into someone in prison, it's a very rigid, contrived sort of situation. You don't get a lot of freedom to kind of see what someone's really like because they're just sitting there behind glass.
I was looking the same, and we knew there was more Paris, And obviously his mother kept all this, all his art books and sketchbooks and letters, all this artwork over the years, and he'd always been a very good artist and very interesting intricate drawings, and so we thought that it would serve a nice purpose to pertually again, you know, kind of what I was saying before about using the archives to make the characters but more relatable.
And we wanted to show that there was a time when he was a kid who drew you know, octopuses and you know, you know, wild animals and did keep you know, family pictures and that kind of thing. And I guess we see as he gets older, his his art becomes a bit more sinister. But it was a way of kind of getting a bit more insight into him and kind of showing how nuanced he is. And I think art reveals immense talent, I think as an artist, but also there's a lot more going on, you know,
there's a lot of thought behind everything. I think it was just a way that we could try and like weave in a bit more of him throughout the film, so it didn't kind of feel so so black and white because nothing about this story or the family of black and white. Sorry, sorry, as I was just going to say, so, when we got the access, we thought we could try and select some of them to try and do little montages to kind of show a passing of time as well and kind of evolving as those m h.
You talk about him being in when I talk about you show him in the Ferguson unit in a correctional center not too far away from where Charity is and she looks and you have it in the film that she looks up this notorious Ferguson unit and is concerned, what did you find out? Or no, you didn't go behind the walls or anything, but what do you know of this Ferguson unit in this place where he is? This man would entered at thirteen years of age, but
you know of this place? What do you know of this correctional.
Center the prison itself? Well, that was so he was moved from a juvenile facility, which is I think further towards Galveston in Texas, and after the age of eighteen, he was moved from there to an out of prison and it happened to be Yeah, at that time that you see Charity looking up the prison. I mean, they didn't give any warning. They knew at some point they were going to move him to another facility, but they didn't tell you where or when or anything like that.
So that was, you know, a real shock. I mean, I think all prisons are dark places and places that you know, awful things go on. And I don't know any more about Ferguson than than any other facilities in the area. I mean, there's a large number of prisons in that area. It's about an hour or so from Houston, and I yeah, I think I think all prisons are pretty dark places, and I think Ferguson Unit is no different.
You talk about filming and and Charity is in the process of being pregnant and then finally giving birth to a son named Phoenix, and then you have a very powerful conversation with Paris in prison, with Charity and with Phoenix sitting there as well. What is Paris planning to do and and is doing in prison in terms of communicating with his stepbrother someday.
Well, I mean, I think as you as you see, I mean it's something that Charity sort of struggles with. Of course, you know, they are related, and she you know, that supports them having contacts. But I think at this point, you know, Phoenix still so young, so I think it's still going to be limited for some time. How much they communicate with each other, I think I think I think Paris does send him letters and little, you know, books for present. I think one time they were reading
The Hobbit. I think that was a birthday present that Paris had sent his Phoenix. So I mean, I think it's a I think time will tell oviously, that's going to be a very complicated conversation for Charity to have with Phoenix at some point. But I think at this stage, you know, he's he's still so young, and he may understand that there's a brother on the end of a phone somewhere, but I'm not sure how much at this
point he really understands what that means. And I think that time will tell how that relationship unravels.
The footage in this documentary shows Charity talking again I'm not to Paris about her concerns, but when she does speak of him, and when she does speak to him, it seems like it really does seem like a very loving, concerned mother and she's just dealing with the issues of her son in prison, doesn't it.
Yeah, definitely, I think that. I think that was the one of the things that's you know, the most admirable or maybe the most kind of you know, normal to have expected in some ways about charity. This is still this is still her kid, and she wants to make sure he's all right and he's healthy and he's got
everything he needs. And yeah, I think I think one of the things that this film maybe tries to do, or certainly something we talked about when we were making it, is the idea that we certainly something we talked about when we are thinking about this intended juvenile justice is we thought, you know, everyone should be to be seen as better than their worst act, you know, not not
to be defined by this one tragic moment. And I think in a family that's gone through this type of tragedy, I think it's very I think you can get stuck, you know, and I think for people hearing it, they can kind of keep you stuck in this moment of tragedy and trauma, and that can be the defining thing that or the moment that kind of defines everything else. And I think that what we learned through making this film is that it's not really like that, you know,
you sort of at some point. Also, yes, that may changed everything, That might have been the final moment that changed things. That there are many many different ways that we relate to each other. And I don't think that Charity in Paris's relationship is only defined by by what he did. I'm not saying that's not complicated, but I think that I think there are many different ways, many diferent ways that a relationship is define And I think for them, ultimately them mother and son.
Given that she is this unconditional love and she's supporting him. But for everyone else again, I again, it seems like it can't be anybody's more their business than charity. But what would you what would you think? I mean, again, you're not saying this in the film, but I'm not asking you personally. What would you think society or the judicial system should have done with Paris or should do with Paris? What is the alternative to what was done? What do you think should have been done?
I think Paris for someone who commits a crime like that, I mean, I think they need help. I don't know how I don't know what putting someone in prison for forty years is going to do. I don't know.
I've really struggled to believe that.
It's going to make here many any sort of more likely to be rehability, rehabilitated and redeemed, or make society any more safe. And I think, you know, prisons are really there to keep people safe and to rehabilitate people, and to punish people. I mean, there are it is there for punishment as well, but there are these two other factors to keep people safe and to have some sort of process of rehabilitation for people who've done you've
committed crimes. And I think somewhere along the way, I feel anyway that just the system's lost its way, and it's become so much about punishment and not really about these other two elements. And you would think that after forty years, you know, it's a really huge chunk of someone's life to not be able to really have necessarily keep people more safe or you or to offer a real kind of chance of rehabilitation. I think that's I think you're asked some questions about that system.
Were you opposed to a prison sentence versus a mental institution or were you more so, I guess concerned and disturbed by the lengthy sentence itself given to a thirteen year old child.
I think both. I think that I don't I'm not familiar enough with the sort of psychiatric abilities or the kind of other possible help that would have been available to.
Know what would what would have been the right fit.
But I think perhaps a more holistic conversation about what kind of help and also, yes, the length of time, I mean, I think ten years, twenty years, you know, forty years? Does it? At what point does it really make any difference? You know, you spend ten years in prison, are you going to be any more likely to be redeemed or rehabilitated?
I don't know.
If you don't get the right help, you know, if you don't kind of maybe have some other way of trying to operate in the world.
And I think Paris really gives.
Some valuable insight on that. I think it was he does understand the sort of the environment he's in is violent and aggressive and is not a is a place of survival. It's the place that you just have to survive. And I think that's something that we forget about well, we don't know. If we think about when we think about prison and create this environment, that is a very difficult environment to really try and focus on anything else.
Is it just a place that encourages people to bring out their worst qualities rather than somewhere that can maybe nature the other side of other parts of what people are.
Does Charity fear that this violent prison environment will change her son or not? Regardless, does she have any qualms about his eventual release.
I mean, I'm sure she doesn't. We talk about that quite a lot on and off.
You know.
I think it's something she's afraid of, and she's worried about it, and she hopes that by the time that that comes she will feel you know, she doesn't know what her relationship will be with Paris at that point, or what place he'll be in, or how he'll be you know, what kind of work he might have done
by that point. I mean, I'm sure I don't know whether it will be qualms or what it would be, but I'm sure there is anxiety and concern and ambiguity around that, around the idea of when he comes out what that will mean.
But she's not giving up on him. It shows in the film where incident where she says I had enough, but certainly doesn't look like she's giving up on her son Paris anytime soon.
It.
No, I don't think so. I mean she takes she takes what she would call mental health breaks, which is, you know, she will have time where she's just like, I just can't, I can't, you know, we can't communicate for a while, whether it would be because they had a row about something or a disagreement or something, or she will just decide no, I need I need some time to you know, for myself. And during the time of us film, and I think there was about a
year when they weren't in touch. And so I think she you know, she always seems pretty good at knowing what's what she's able to give. I don't think she's would be someone who would show up and visit him just to kind of give him a hard time. I think she'd always try to is going to be if you're going to be in it, you know, try and get what you can from that relationship. Absolutely, Yeah, I
don't think she would. I don't. I mean, I'm not saying she wouldn't walk away, but I don't not something she's done yet.
Absolutely Yeah. I want to thank you very much for coming on Katie Green and talking about the family. I had an engrossing look at an unthinkable crime. For those people that I know, this release has just been in March, so just recently. Where could they view this? How could they get a chance to take a look at this?
Yep, this I believe we are available. Let me just subble chat. I think it's Amazon Prime Video, iTunes, who doo on Google Play?
I believe.
Yes, absolutely yes, and so it's available on demand so people can go out there and purchase it the family I had. I want to thank you very much Katie for coming on and talking about this very very very powerful documentary. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much and hope to talk to you sometimes.
Thank you definitely, thank you so much for havinga bye.
Thanks Ye