THE ENIGMA OF TED BUNDY-Kevin Sullivan

As such, there is new testimony, including from those who had a brush with the killer and others who played their own roles in this multi state case. In this book, Bundy Case detective Jerry Thompson of Salt Lake City, Utah and Don Patchen of Tallahassee, Florida talk about their personal experiences with Bundy. So does Ron Holmes, the Louisville criminologist who worked with the killer towards the end of his life.

Also included are official reports that have rarely been viewed outside of the archives, along with the author's commentary to guide readers through them. And last, but not least, is Bundy's final confession to Utah detective Dennis Couch, just hours prior to Bundy's execution. In it, Bundy reveals startling facts and sparks addtional questions. I must read for those true crime readers fascinated by America's most enigmatic and infamous serial killer.

The book that we're featuring this evening is the Enigma of Ted Bundy, The Questions and Controversies surrounding America's most infamous serial killer, with my special guest journalist and author, the world's resident expert on Ted Bundy, Kevin Sullivan. Thank you so much for this interview and welcome back to the program.

many years. What are you adding with this book? What specifically is in this For those Ted Bundy fanatics and for those that have read the previous six Ted Bundy books that you've written.

my file drawers. So as as stuff comes to me, I'll be publishing things in the future. But this, this last book of the main six books, I wanted to do something a little different. I wanted to create a book that could tackle a lot of the questions and controversies about Bundy, cover the types of things that you

can't cover when you're writing. For example, when I wrote my flagship book, The Biography of Ted Bundy, The Bundy Murders, a comprehensive history, and then the companion Biumes that I've had since then, you could do, you know a little bit in there. But I wanted a enigma to really just focus on some things that were that had not been covered before. And that's one of the reasons why I added the transcripts that I had originally UH done of the interviews of Don Paxson, Jerry Thompson and Ron

Holmes back in two thousand and seven. In two thousand and eight, when I was doing research for my book The Bundy Murders. Now I had not listened to these tapes for a long time. It dated in many years, and of course The Bundy Murders, the first edition came

out in two thousand and nine. It was re released as an updated expanded verse April twenty twenty but I had quoted from these men, not just from those tapes a little bit, but I've had so many conversations with them, off Dake, I've quoted from them in the book The Bundye Murders. But back and listen to these books, these these tapes, and I turned them into transcripts for the book, and it was almost like listening to them for the

first time. And I thought, this is going to be really great for the reader to get down into print for Enigma, because, for example, Jerry Thompson passed away, uh about a year and a half ago, and and and and then my Holmes is gone as well. So I was wanting to do that. So I wanted to get a lot of things in there, look at look at Bundy from a number of angles, as well as we produced some of the case file material that that most people will never be able to read, and then had

commentary along, you know with that. So I wanted to make Enigma rather unique. And as I went through the book, and as I finished the book, I think I was successful in doing so.

this is the opening supplementary report. Tell us, tell us a little bit about this supplementary report and what the DA his daughter Margaret was reporting about Bundy specifically.

And of course the reason for that, and the investigators knew this after they learned that Bundy was constantly taking that passenger seat out and putting it back in and doing so he he kind of tight fitting aspect of it was gone, and she said she used to have to hold on that that seat would rock back and forth.

But Marburn knew him. She liked Bundy. Her father was on the as I recalled, the State Supreme Court of Utah, and after Bundy got in trouble, she had to he had to recuse himself because obviously he had met Bundy and had some dealings with him, and of course knew him through through his daughter. But if you read her testimony, it's just very interesting and what these people knew who knew Bundy either hunted him and had dealing with him,

or you know, we're friends with him. It really is a window into, you know, Bundy's life and what came forth.

And there's another thing that I was wanting to do in those supplementary reports when I wrote to Bundy Murders, I included just a portion of the cat and mouse thing that that Bundy had with the Seattle cops when he had gone home from Utah in December of my seventy five, having been released from from jail on bail, and they knew Bundy was coming and they tracked him and they surveiled him for a couple of months before he went back home. That went over so well. People

loved that so much. From the Bundy Murders that I included, I didn't use them all. I included the rest of those in other Companion buyings. Well, when I was doing Enigma, I thought, I want to add the surveillance tapes of Utah, of the Utah cops, and so I've got those in there too. But you'll but you'll find in these supplementary reports. I'll tell you one thing really great about them. When I was writing The Bundy Murders and I was dealing with, uh,

the official records. What you do when you're writing narrative non fiction, you're telling a story, you don't you don't replicate the reports. You write your story based on what's in the reports, and then you can add squibs here or there of the reports. That's just normal. But I remember when I was writing, you know, the Money Murders, I thought, this is it would be so great if

people could see the full reports. And so, you know, you can't do that when you're writing something like biography, it's just got done.

a report on that or whatever. So it's very very interesting. Thus, when you look back at this thing, what's an enigma about Margaret Man Her father's in a position in the court system they had to recuse himself later, and just what she says about dealing with Bundy. It just it's a great window into what happened during that time.

you saw the actual supplementary reports. What was most interesting or fascinating or stood out for when you reviewed those actual supplemented reports, the police interaction and phone calls with Elizabeth.

phone as other times we emailed each other. He always gave like, like I like to say, additional clarification when I stumbled on something and I needed to know more.

And so many things came out with Jerry, you know about these various interviews you did with people, and as well as Liz, and you know, he said she was extremely nice and and none of the investment the gators were really upset with her that she kind of bounced back and forth with Bundy or hoping he's not him, and then believing that he probably is, thinking no, it couldn't be. So the detectives kind of understood what kind

of quandary that she was in. But those interviews that they did with her were very eye opening as to the nature of Bundy. And if you look at what she had to say to these detectives and she would end up having great, great guilt for them because she was just she would be in these periods. She'd think she'd get back around Bundy, and well, he just can't be and then she'd have guilt for having talked to the cops. And I remember when she admitted the Bundy

that she did I vote in the Bundy murders. That must have been like having a knife in the gut for him to hear that she actually talked with him. But but yeah, but she was honest, and but she was, you know, just she was very forthright with with them, Jerry and some other uh this deal and I of, you know, bountful. They flew up the theatre and met at the I believe the king County Ted passport Ted

Task Force office where you know Kepple was. So they had this great interview and it wouldn't be the last time. And I remember in one of the interviews, I think the one that I happened in Enigma, she's got she's asking questions. She's not just answering questions, but she's asking questions. And you know, she heard about a rapist in the avenues and Bundy in the vernacular of the day, it's not how people. Thank God, it's d that people talk now. But then they tried to blame it on what he

said was returned people that around the corner. Probably a good chance it was Blundy committing some of these rapes. It may not be, but it's real funny that he lived in the avenues and these things were going on, and so I guess there were occasions where Bundy would he has suspected anyway of raping some people, but maybe not murdering them when it was rape only. But most of his activity with women, as you will know, it had to do with murder, and because that's why he

enjoyed so much. And of course from then it was it was the necrophilia. So the avenue's rapist insult Lake City might not be Blundy, but he was certainly suspected of it, and she talked about that. She was very concerned that he might be involved in it. So anyway, but they're very interesting interviews.

as to why he would have all this stuff. Of course, you take a look at what he had in this bag. I mean, it just this isn't for what he said it was, although he could use them for in some cases some some other things. But she said, some of the stuff I've seen, and then she named it and

other stuff that I haven't seen. But he and She also mentioned in there that she had a type of what was a tire tool, a job over handle, you know, I know, yeah, you know what was that the one where she said Bundy wrapped it, wrapped it and he had wrapped it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, but so so so anyway, and I remember Thompson said in the interview, he said, well, I'd like to see that before we go back, So I'm assuming that she showed it to him.

But yeah, and so, you know, she she was very forthright, and uh, you know, Jerry said an interesting, interesting thing. He said, I can't tell you like some things that she wanted to know. He said, I want to back, and he said, not only can I not tell you, I can't even tell anybody like the in the department except for my partner. Just himming right, and his partner that was it because he didn't want the stuff information getting out, even to the other cops, because they may

start talking about it then. So he said, Jerry was the kind of guy that he was no nonsense, and he could be funny and stuff like that, but he was no nonsense and he would shoot straight with you, and he wouldn't lie to you, and he was just gonna tell it like it is. And he didn't put up with bs from people, and he would call them out on it. So he was a really straight shooter.

He had a really interesting way of speaking to if you could ever hear him on tape, we've got like a clipped way of speaking, but he was just he had like an interesting accent. But in any event, those

were really, really, really great interviews. And of course you take that and he's like everything that we know and all these other reports, and throughout my six books you'll find a lot of the really what I call important supplementary reports and along with commentary, and it just gives people a window into saying, I know, I wrote in one of my books, I think it might have been I don't know if the TRAILFT had one of one of them, but I said, these reports that were put

together by the detectives, the investigators, I mean, in the back of their head, they may have known that what years and years from now, somebody could see them, but they really weren't really thinking about that very much. Because in these reports they would occasionally insult certain people and they put it in print, which makes it really interesting for the researchers and the writers that come out later

and put that stuff out. And I've got a couple places in several places in Enigma, but in one of the other books where it talks about and I mentioned it in the commentary how they came out. But if you look at and said these things, and they just it was like else humor, And I say, I make mention that this is no different than they would you know, comment to each other about and make jokes about. So

they would have these things sometimes to the record. We think in terms of now being public, you know, you think, oh my gosh, that they wish they could go back and remove that. But but the record is extremely interesting, and that's why I try to put some of the record in my pod Companion Biomes, I should say, Fortuno Encyclopedia. Yeah.

understand that. But yeah. The the investigators looked at Liz as someone who was trying to do the right thing and having difficulty. But the thing people need to understand about Liz is that when the rubber was meeting the road, she was still going to do what she thought was right. When she had the momentary doubts about Bundy, it wasn't volitionally she said, I'm going to be obstinate to the cops because I'm going to I'm going to defend Bundy. She wasn't one of the folks that were going to

defend somebody that she thought was guilty. So even though she had struggles, you know, even though when she got around Bundy she could feel that pool to think, oh, I must be wrong about this. He couldn't be doing all these things. He's too loving, he's too nice. But I remember in one of the reports that I had in one of my books. The investigator said that Liz's back on bund besides, and she's not getting cooperative. But even they understood what was going on. They understood that

she had come forward. She had told them a lot. She was vacillating, but not vacillating because she wanted to. She was vacillating between the possibilities of his guilt and the possibilities of his innocence. And if he was innocent, she's doing him a great injustice. And this is important too.

She felt like if he was innocent, that some of the things that she was saying about Bundy, she could harm him in his future together with her of not just being able to be a lawyer, but but going into politics because she thought that he is innocent, and this turns out to be someone else. Look what I've done to his reputation. So she dealt with a lot, and a lot of people judge lives, and I think in ways that they shouldn't by being flippant about this.

You know, she should have this automatically and never gone back on it. Just figured out it was them. And boy, it's always it's always easy to speak for somebody else's life and not your own. But when you're in the

midst of something that's so emotional. And after all, she loved Bundy, and she thought Bundy loves her, and in a way there only a psychopath can I suppose he did that It was not the kind of love that normal people would well, but the bottom line is she had a rough time, and I think in the end investigators understood it.

lot of things that start to gel. There's been times in the past when I have made speculations about what may have happened, although we didn't know the answer any only later come to find out somebody would contact me, like Lorraine Fargo did Last Bird and to speak with Keaby books. She confirmed two of them, and so I never try to speculat in books except I want to do speculation in Enigma, and the type of speculation that's

based on a lot, as far as I'm concerned, circumstantial evidence. Again, I did this before in a place in the Bundye Mersey and when I'm in Forego contacted me after the Bundye Mersey was published, and she said, well, you were right about both those things and here's why. So it was confirmed. Now when I was speaking at I been invited to speak at the at the Kinge University in

Pittsburgh in September of twenty nineteen. What I do when I get information or I've come to a place where I've made a decision about something Bundy likely did, I won't announce that publicly. I'll wait for the book to come in print. However, I had deduced from my investigations of Bundy that it was clear that he started attacking woman at night, and then it comes to July fourteen, were going to it deeper. It was a bold daylight

of abduction, and he went back into nighttime things. So when that Ducaine at the circ Killer conference, I spoke about this for the first time, I knew it was going to end up putting it in print. I didn't know when, didn't know how. And then later when Enigma came uh, I decided to do Enigma, it went in there. But basically it was this when when Bundy first started and Bundy never talked about this, and to my knowledge, the investigators never never proceed this angle at all, not

anywhere in the record, not with anyone I've ever talked to. However, when Bundy first did you know, we know he did the the Karen Sparks thing where he got into her unlock the apartment in the middle of the night. He might call it three hours of the morning, the middle of the night. And then she didn't die. So his next victim, Laura Ann Healey, probably gather between two and four a m. That's roughly the time that he likely did this. Karen scavellm went to bed. I actually said

she was escaped out one month thirty. He wasn't in the half at that time, but he came in a daughter. Now, all of these were nighttime abductions until that we know of the ones we know about only nighttime abductions. Now that that was his comfort zone, and I speak about this in the Bumbe murders. That was his comfort zone and that would take him a while before he would get the daylight attacks. And I didn't cover him in

the Bundy murders. About what I'm really saying here. And he's first spotted that we know of on the campus of Central Washington State College in Ellensburg in the afternoon hunting that nobody really knows it in the afternoon, but doesn't obtain a victim. He did obtain his victim at around ten thirty on April seventeenth. It was there on a couple of days, and he got Susan Rancourt on April seventeen, nineteen seventy four. It was, of course, it

was dark. It was around ten thirty PM. And I put in enigma the times of sundown and the times that he got his victims. Now, when we get to jail, this is how it basically maintained. He maintained this man time stuff for the most part of the ones. We know that come July fourteenth, nineteen seventy four, he did something he had never done, and that was he went to Lakesomry State Park, which is east of Seattle, and

there were forty is a beautiful, beautiful day. And I went back in twenty fifteen, and I wanted to be there on July fourteenth, but I was up in org I was down in orb and doing some research and I didn't get back back to Washington State. We had come down to Washington State and I was at Lakes Amison on July fifteenth of twenty fifteen. But that day too was beautiful, but there was nobody there but just some people. But the day Buddy was. There was forty

thousand people. There were even companies there having picnics, and there was one a police department was having a picnic. But he was able to in broad daylight abduct Janisot before noon. People saw him, saw at heard conversations, heard him say that his name was Ted, she was Janice, and he got her. Then he went came back later that afternoon after having Janisot likely tied to its tree or tied up and sexually assaulted, and then likely tied to a tree and gagged, and then he came back

and got Denise Maslin around four point thirty. However, Bundy never talked about it, and the investigators apparently never asked him about it. To my knowledge, that he must have been bothered by all the attention that he brought on himself during those double daylight abductions. Frankly, between you and me, even though he wasn't satiated with Aunt, Bunny was so arrogant by this point of thinking he could get away

with everything. And it was a much more bolder individual, a much bolder individual that I think he was really trying to make a statement that day. It was just like a boast, and so once he drew all this information to him, he wasn't happy about it, obviously.

after sundown. But by the time he gets over to I guess it's like April sixth, maybe unless I'm unless I'm screen at the date, but I think that Denise Ollarison was was April sixth at the check, but it

was definitely spring. That was the first daylight abduction that we know of, and he felt confident to grab her in broad daylight, and it was really bold because anybody, if he's ever seen, if you could see where it was in Grand Junction, it was in a he could have easily been spotted in many directions, and he probably abducted her whacking her, uh, you know, pulling ahead of her far enough and she rolled out with her bike and she probably whacked her. He may have not had

to whack her, maybe convinced her or something. But I have a feeling from where she was because she was going somewhere. I don't imagine he coaxed her going with him. It was probably just a very quick attack. Uh. And so that was the first time back, so you know he had he had retreated from this daylight thing because he'd brought so much ego and gone back into the nighttime attacks. I thought that was an interesting observation in one that is likely correct, And for me, it's not

even likely. It's it's all the evidence is there.

dumps per se. All his victims there were either discarded or buried, and I don't think he had an actual dumper he would return to so a bit different in Utah. And of course by the time he got to Florida, if you look at the Kyle megattacks, they don't even appear to be Bundy like, and he was. He had been so long since he had killed that it was more like like a ram page. It was all that pent up murderous energy. But then the leech killing his lastic on the little girl in Lake City, they could

be more like Bunny. But even there he was on a downhill slide. But is that basically what what you were referring to or or did you have another angle that I'm just missing?

only living witness. Let me turn their tapes in the book, the tapes upon they in the Conversations with a Killer and Michell did most of the interactions with him, while Hugh when I had went out west and just gathered all the information into the investigation, but you had dealings with him too. It it's really funny if you look in at the Conversations with a Killer, are you you know or you're reading it? Hugh ains where he insults Bundy. A couple of times, which was really funny. But the

bottom line is he was seeking the third person. But when he got down to his end of life confessions, he said, I did this, I did that. However, there were still people that he wouldn't talk about, and it became clear to me over my years of research that by and large it's probably going to have to do with not college aged women that he won't talk about,

but teenage girls or even preteen girls. In one of the in one of the tapes Bundy made where he was speaking in the third person about a serial killer, which he was really talking about himself, he had mentioned that this person may have killed that a as either said a half a dozen or a dozen really, you know,

like young girls. And I know that. When he was talking with Bob Keppel at the end to cover the Washington State murders, Pepple asked him when this started, and he did admit that he killed a hitchhiker in Tomwater, Washington, which is south of Seattle, but I think about thirty minutes. It's south of Seattle, and he had picked her up in the murderer and he did not identify her. And

it's interesting if you look at the conversions of Bundy. Again, just like you say, there were certain people he would talk about and name, and certain people he wouldn't. And the ones that he likely wouldn't are probably those are the preteens and teenagers or even preteens. I've got in that case Fyle, some people that disappeared in areas where Bundy was hunting. Bundy was hunting, and a lot of the m seems similar to Bundy. But like in one case of the ten year old girl, and they don't,

they don't, you know, there's just no proving it. But but you know, but I interviewed a girl named Michelle Coleman Nelson. Nelson's her marry name. Her father was in big of h in Walkington State at various TV stations. He worked for the newspapers for a while. He just had a nice career out there in media. And Bundy tried to grab her on her way to school, going to her bus stop, and she was like, like, I think around twelve and she was just a young kid.

You can see her picture and come to find out through another person that I know is doing Bundy research, Bundy tried to get another young girl in almost exactly the same area just a number of blocks away, who was also young. Now, these are the kind of abductions, had they been successful, he wouldn't talk about. So when Keppel's talking to him and he admits that he had one killing in Tumbwater from the hitch Tucker in seventy three, he then says, and there was a homicide in seventy two.

And as soon as he said it, it was very matter of fact, and kepel knew he meant it, pressed him on it, but he took it back. He wouldn't talk about it. And I personally think, and this is something else based on we may never be able to prove it. I'm sure we won't, but based on what Dundee said, his record and what he would and wouldn't talk about except in the third person, it was likely

a teenage girl or preteen. And if you look at the confessions for kepple Fund, he admitted to killing eleven in Washington, but he was only named eight and so there were three unknown. So why would he hold back on that. I think it's likely they were young girls and he did want to talk about that same thing. In Utah he admitted to Dennis Counts there were eight so he only touched on the names of five. So

who are they? You got a case where he's trying to save his life, the murder of women that were in college, and he had no trouble talking about them. But yet these other people he wouldn't name. Why wouldn't he name those? Because he was fighting for his life the reason why. And I don't think Bob Kevil talked about this and other people. He was just too embarrassed to admit it. In other words, his first victim could

have been Ann ry Burgh, but she was eight. I think it's likely that he did that, and I can't say everything that I know about it now because I got a friend who's doing some research on it. He's got some theories and I don't want to talk about it, but I think it's likely when he did that when we will probably never know for sure. But she was eight, So that was his first murder, I believe. But we do know that he did kill twelve year old Lynnette

Culver p Patla, Idaho. He said that he thought she was a little bit older, like fourteenth, fifteen maybe, but even I mean still, that's not an adult woman. So we know that he did. But he had to talk about that one. And he also did not want to talk much about the Kim Leech murder, which we know his last victim of twelve. So the ones that I think he's not talking about probably of similar age, but likely younger, and those are the ones that he took

to his great with him. And you could find reports, as I said, in my files, I've got reports of girls, young girls missing in surrounding states where Oney could have operated and likely operated, and you know, and so they're there and I see these, knowing what I know, and I go, hmm, that could very well be him. Will never be able to prove it. So, yeah, it's interesting to think of that. Yeah, I don't think it's going to be one of those things that we'll be able to confirm.

of these people like Melissa Smith. And also you talk about not only was the apartment and the idea that he had to take apartment, but that there was a seller that wasn't so well known. So could you tell us about that?

like two and anteas. But but it was Mike the first told me that he suspected that Bundy had some people in this apartment, and he was thinking at the time like the twoity room. But I thought, well that's, you know, a little bit on the cramp side. I don't possible, and I didn't know about the seller, and I don't think Mike thought about the Seller reader. I'm not sure, but but if you read in the Confessions,

when I say confessions, Bundy is theorizing about things. And when the show talks about carrying something people in and out of his apartment, Bundy goes into it and he said, you know, it's probably whoever would do something like that, carrying something in or out of their apartment or something. And then he was basically say, it's almost like crazy, but we're not dealing with somebody that was fully rational, because he said he just, you know, a course like

that must think he can walk through walls. So Bundy addressed it. There now a lot of people, a lot of people have taken great pains to think that he didn't do that, and a lot of people just mock it. And it's true that there was a seller that after I wrote the Bundy bur sometimes sometimes after that, just literally a number of years ago, he was the apartment

manager and he would show apartments. He would do cutting in the grass, and he had if you go in the back of the house and you're standing there and you look to the right, there's a there's a there are steps that are covered by a like a little lid and there's a lock on it, and you can unlock that and go down to the cellar area those don't He no doubt had some of his victims down there, and I think likely it was probably DeBie Kent and maybe Nancy Wilcox, because he had them only for a

very very short period of time. But he did mean I took him up to my apartment. So did he take him all the way up to the apartment. Probably not. He probably had him there. And I know there's a fellow that lives a thou six Faustaveritors that I used to hear buddy down there all the time, So it's possible he could use the cellar only, but I don't think so. I think it's likely, and this would go exactly with bun these arrogance and with what he told

the show. I was discussing this a couple of months ago with somebody who's also a researcher, and he thinks it was likely just a seller, and I said, but if you look at what he said in the show, it doesn't appear like it was just the seller at all, because I said, I've been there twice to this place, and you could pull up at night dark is very dark, open up your trunk, which is in the front of his car, open up that thing, and just get her

in there within seconds. I said, if you look at what he told the show, it doesn't appear like he's talking about something so easy. He's talking about transferring in and out of apartments that I said to this person, think of the Healy And I wrote this in the book. I said, think of the Healy abduction in reverse, where he carried them van heely out into a university district, carried her out probably we took the blanket throwing over

her could have been seen by anybody. Kids in the university of the districts are coming and going at all hours of the night, and it didn't bother bynd it. So I said, you know, I've been to this apartment. He could have parked on the side of the house, wait, make sure that the coast is clear, and go up the front steps and up to his room, and he would be able to get up there and under a minute, even with a body. And I said, if you look at what says with Michelle, that's the kind of risk

that I think he's talking about. And that way because he had at least two of his victims for a number of days. That would be Melissa Smith and Laura and Amy. And I've seen the autopsy photos of Laura an Amy. She is Christine. There is no DeKay whatsoever. And she was found on Thanksgiving of nineteen seventy four, but she was abducted on It was late October thirty first, really into the morning November first, and so it wasn't

freezing there, so her body wasn't frozen. You got some really cool nights there, but usually it doesn't go below freezing. So this body looked Christine. So where's he going to have that body in the cellar the whole time? I kind of doubt that he would have liked the comfort of his own room. And if you look at what he said in the show, it's real clearly talking about

inside and outside of the apartment. So I told my friend, I said, it just for me, it just doesn't gel, It just doesn't jail that he would just take him down in that cellar, although he probably very much ad Smith and Wilcox there. And that's another thing. It's really interesting for some reason, and I don't know why Bundy did this, he told a totally different story about Wilcox to Michelle than he did well, I won't say totally, but pretty radically different as to the certain aspects of it.

And in the Michew thing, he goes back and says that I didn't even know she was dead until I went back there and spell she was dead. Well, he then must have transported her to his home, but doesn't elaborate on it. But in the in the confessional couch, he admits he took her there, and he admits that he took Kent there, and he also admits took her there. She wasn't dead, but he killed her, uh obviously there and then and then took her remains the next day,

so he no doubt did happen in the cellar. I remember I spoke to Jerry Thompson once about Bundy keeping victims there, and he never really thought that he did. But the evidence is there from his statements, not just to Michau, but you know, to what he said the couch at the end, so you know, you can there are somebody to say he absolutely did not take them

up this. You can't say that the moment when you say that about somebody like Bundy is the moment you're going to get snuggered, because Bundy would do things just for the will of it. And he already told Michell this is a man that wasn't thinking clearly, it wasn't being rational and so anyway, so I think he had them in both locations.

a special relationship with him. He was instrumental in helping you and the information that you got from him was again crucial to the creation of the books that about Bundy that you have written so far. Let's talk about the interview with Jerry Thompson and what you have included in this Enigma of Ted Bundy.

a straight shooter. And I just got it say again, all of these investigators that I dealt with were so extremely open with me and so extremely nice, and they never failed to answer any questions that I had. And if you look in the I thought it was really interesting if you if you if you look at the transcript of the Jerry Thompson tape, I thought it was really uh cool when when he talked about when he was warning the people and in in Colorado, he said,

you're not watching him. He said, you know, you're letting him go down to the coke machine. And and and they would go, oh, Jerry, Dad's not going to do anything. We could make him a trustee and and and and I said the Bundy murders, I said, I mean, here you had a person that was on trial for murder, the murder of Karen Campbell and suspected of many murders in the Northwest, and ire acting like this guy is just he's like a choir boy. He's got oh, he's

just dead. He just yeah, we can make it a trustee. Thompson said, you know, I don't normally carry my service revolve, but when I'm there, but he but he basically said, but I'm going to start because he's going to do something, and if I have to stop him, I'm going to That's basically what he said. And he talked about how he rubbed it in with him later about that. Look,

you know, he said, I warned you. I warned you what he would do, and now you know this, and I remember, Thompson said during the interview he talked about later the families of some of the Flora victims contacted him and said, do you think we could sue because Colorado so failed and and keep it? And they did. They did a horrendous job of securing Bundy escape twice. Last time he went to Florida. He said, well, I'm not an attorney, so you're going to have to deal

with the attorneys on that. But Jerry told me an interesting thing during the day, and he talked about how Bundy. He said, you know, Bundy used to call him all the time when he was on trial in Utah because he was like a co counsel. He was helping in his defense. So Thompson said, I talked to him and Thompson said, I always would ask him about Debbie Kent, and Bundy would end up saying, oh, I don't know anything about her, and he would say, oh, yes, you do,

you know? And then I remember one time and in there in the transcript he said, you know, he would ask him this all the time. So they had a number of conversations that Bundy would call from the jail and he'd always bring up Thompson would always bring up Debbie can't. And I remember our quartered for the book that Bundy murders something that Thompson told me what Bundy said at one point that isn't on the transcript because we talked about his eyes, We talked about the actions

of Bundy. We talked about a lot of things off tape, and I include the thing in the Bundy murs with Thompson said. One day when Bundy called me, Thompson said, he said, well, I want to ask you about Debbie, and Bunny started laughing. You could hear him laughing through the point he said, Oh, Debbie, you'll have to ask

somebody else about that. You know, he was laughing. So this is something that Thompson always again the straight shooter that he was, and I think Bundy, I think there was a part of Bundy that might have respected that. But also Bundy felt such contempt for Thompson because Thompson was so instrumental and you know, you know, finding out who Bundy was and really bringing him the light in Utah. And you know, Bundy's to do the same thing with

Mike Fisher. You know, he was you know, he respected Mike, but he hated the fact that that that he was tracking himsel And of course Mike was the first detective whoever get I wore a murder place against Bundy. And so but anyway, the the transcripts of of uh, of Jerry's conversations with me that that interview is very enlightening, and I knew people wouldn't you know, want to read it. So I'm glad I got that down in the Book of Posterity.

And then you talk about Ron Holmes, the criminologist. So maybe we talk about Ron Holmes first and uh and his visit to with with Ted Bundy and uh, and also about this film interview that fell through. Maybe tell us as you write in the book about Ron Holmes, his book and that interview.

but we wouldn't have been talking about Ted Buddy. But Massey had been friends with with with with with Ron Holmes for a number of years and and it was through Massy that I met Jerry Thompson and got them to bring the murder kid in my home. And that's really what started rolling. So he Massey introduced me to Jerry Thompson and also introduced me to doctor Al Carlisle and uh got me in, talked to Al. Ali said yes,

I'll speak with Kevin, and sort of that. Mascy also said, now I also know Mike Fisher and I know Don Passion. I don't have contact information for them anymore, but if you locate him, tell him you know me. And I did and so and it was also Rome Holmes was it was hard. It was very difficult. It's very difficult for people to get a appointment to interview homes or even speak for homes at the time. Uh. He very selected who he talks to. But Nancy and Holmes worked

together and in fact it Ron Holmes books. You know. Ron Holmes was a really known, well known criminologist. He's gone now, but he had written books on serial murder that a guy named the Birder, and he had also written someone with his son, and he's got all these

academic books, academic books, and he's he's he's well known. Well, he got to he got in touch with Bundy back in the mid nineteen eighties, and he sent Bundy his resume do let him know who he was, and Bundy liked Homes, and they got together and Homes went down there in the interviewed Bundy all day once from that morning in the prison to work for lunch, came back,

interviewed him throughout the afternoon. And when I was interviewing Bob Kepple, Keevill said to me, because Kevile knows Homes, he goes bought Holmes was set to be Bundy's golden boy back in the mid nineteen eighties, that is, and they not had a falling out. Kemble believes that that it would be Homes that he would have done all his confessing to that they ended up having a falling out.

There's a couple of theories about that. But what was so interesting is that I sat with Jim Massey one night long several years before before I was ever decided. I mean, I didn't even know I'm going to write anying about Bundy. We were having coffee at a restaurant one night and Jim Massey brought all these letters that Bundy had written Alms. When we're drinking coffee, I said

that I read all of them. And that other researcher that I'm talking about that is currently doing some stuff, he's read all the letters from Homes to Bundy, but he's never read them ones from Bundy to Home, Notess, and I've read them all, I said. Unfortunately, I didn't copy those. I didn't make copies of those. I was going to do anything with them, and then Massy put them back in the storage in several years later, writing

the Bundy Morse wh couldn't locate him. I still may be able to obtain those, even though Holmes is gone, and I think I'm going to try. But the bottom line is they were scheduled to go down when I should say this because they were doing all this. Jim Massey traveled to Utah twice and did a lot of research concerning the Utahl murders. He also became personal friends with the Kent family and with Jimmy and Jim Amy. It was really very close friendship between him and Jim Amy.

And when he was with Jim Amy they were driving by where where Laura was found. Jim Amie just blurted out. He said, my baby was up there all by herself, and like I couldn't do anything to help her. And as I said in the book, Jim thinks that my friend Jim Nancy thinks that that Jimamie passed away long before he should have due to the stress of the of the murder of his daughter. But Holmes had had a falling out and the two stories on that. But

what they were going to do. Buddy had been to Utah twice, met all these people, met Carlisle, and met Thompson, got a real friendship going with all these people back in the eighties, back in eat early to mid eighties. Actually, I think he might even started the research even before Holmes had. I think so, even before Holmes had gotten

involved with Bundy. But the bottom line is he had done all this research, and Holmes always mentioned him in his books and said he just Jim contributed so much to the research that they had on Bundy's He told you murders. Anyway, they were supposed to go down, and they were getting all ready to go down, and they were going to do another interview of Bundy, and Nascy was going to go along and film the interview and then they had a falling out and and so that

never took place. And I know Bundy, will I mean that Jim Masthey would have loved having done all this investigation into Bundy. They loved to have gone down there and chill m that and witnessed that. But but but but he never had a chance. And there's two stories on what happened there. Holmes told me, when I earth another thing, I call Holmes. Twice when I was researching the book. I can never get in to see him. So Massey said, let me call Ron and I'll get

you in, and he did. And so Ron was at that time he was coroner in Louisville and the officer of the Coroner as well as he runs the Southern He was a part of the Southern Police Institute here in Louisville at the University of Louisville campus, and people came from all over to do training and stuff like that. For it was kind of like a hub for that.

But and it's still there. But he would uh. So they were set to do all this, and but then this falling out occurred, and Holmes told me that the falling out had to do it, and This sounds just like Bundy had to do with. Bundy was wanting him to buy Carol his you know, his wife at that time, because he's already married her. Yeah, of course. He added that that was at the end of the Leech thing because she was going to go back to school. She's going to be in graduate school down there in Florida.

And Holmes said, I'm not going to do that. He said, you know, if I'm going to buy anybody in a computer she I supposely back then he said, I mean, I would do that for one of my kids if he wasn't going to do that, And he said that was the reason now, and I think it might be a combination of both. Frankly, but Nancy told me that Holmes had also sent Bundy a magazine ar article he had published in like some some federal magazine and had talked about Bundy, and that Bundy got irritated about that.

There was a really good, full length article with pictures published in the Little Curry Journal in a magazine section. I think back in nineteen eighty six, you know, probably maybe nineteen eighty eight. I'm not sure. I'll have to check. But but but the following out with that Bundy had already occurred and they quote from certain things, and I know Bundy was upset about a couple of things. I think Bundy wanted his way on stopping Homes, didn't necessarily

see it that way. So whatever happened, there was this falling out and then that never occurred. Now it's true even though Keppel said that Homes would have been the one of these Donalds confessions too, it would have really been one of these deals where it was like Bill Hagman, because he was working with Bill Hagman. Bundy was at the end and you know, hag My I sat in on every confession, but Bundy had to make the confession to the States, to the detectives of the States were

with this happened. But I do believe that Homes would have played an even more inspruential part in all of this towards the end. So but it's it's it's just very interesting. So I, you know, I had to thank Jim about getting in with Holmes, and then Holmes knew me, you know, we had had that that. It was so interesting too, because the phone rang twice while I was interviewing Holmes in his office, and the first time it was his wife. And each time a call came in,

I would just flip the off button. I'm recording, I say this inn enigma. The second call came in, it was Stephen the Show, and I said, had I known that was my show? I took funny. I thought that was interesting that while I'm there interviewing Holmes about Bundy, there comes a call from the show. And so he said, I that is Stephen the Show on the phone, and I said, oh, okay, he said yeah, he said, we took falk occasionally. So anyway, it's just interesting and glad.

You know. The neat thing about all this is recording people while they're alive. And now, you know who if we lost Holmes is gone, Lorraine Fargo is gone, Jerry Thompson's gone, now, Carlisle's you know. And I won't do that many years, you know, in the future, and the rest of these people will be gone. So it's recording

things while there's time. And that's that is the main reason why if I wrote at Bunny Nurse, I spent years and didn't worry anything about Bundy except to comment on that thing or give talk, you know, talk to documentary documentarians or do podcasts like with You and all that.

But I wasn't writing about Bundy. And I remember somebody came to me and said, this New York Time's best selling author is said, look, why don't we do a book together about Bundy having to do with some notice he may have couldn't just a really did want to do it, and I passed on. I mean, I knew we'd make some money, but I just want to do it. But then when some people started getting sick, really prominent people in the case and one person that passed away,

I said, this is twenty fifteen. I said, you know, if I'm ever going to do a follow up book, I need to do it now before more people are gone. And that's why I worked at Trailer of ped Bundy, and just like the Bundy Marters, a lot of great new interviews from valid people that worked with Bundy, and of course it just I was so pleased that I decided to write that second book but ted Bundy. But

the Bunny Letters cannot be better than that. I didn't write anything, and it's in twenty fifteen I went down that other one and the trailer ped Bundy Digging up the mPulse than that was publics and then of course that started more contacts with me from other people, and then it just kind of snowballs from there, and then the rest of the is what I call the sixth book series.

He was well aware of the work of herving The Mask of Sanity, which was originally published in nineteen I think forty one, and quickly at at some point he revised that book over the years, and I don't know how many revisions it took place, but I remember, like they said once that there was the revisions were so heavy and at some point it was almost like writing a new book. But even Cleckly interviewed Bundy at some point apparently, and so at least that's what I was

told by some other people who should know. But the bottom line is this factored identity syndrome. When Holmes was talking to me about that, he said, you know there were there were people. If this is going to happen, it usually happens young in life. Could be uh fauma that caused it to happen, And he said, I always thought it was very interesting in Holmes said this, you know, anything he did kill the Holmes I mean, if he did kill Burr. Holmes said that, you know he was at fifteen.

in that bad sense, and he's committee murder. So, you know, Holmes saw Bundy almost like on another plane, as it were, another level that most people don't find themselves on, and that Bundy, for whatever reason, found himself on this other level that most people never go to at a very young age. And I remember he said, here he was at fifteen, he's he knew all about who he was and so and the traumatic aspects. I mean, Holmes knows that people can suffer trauma and not turn into something

like that. But the circumstances must have been right. And this is a lot. I've said this at this symposium in front of other people that were there on the panel who are experts in this stuff and not just writers. But I said to the audience, I said, as much as we learn about chemical things that happened in the brain of these people and the differences, I said, not only do they not know for a certainty why these people are this way, I don't think they're ever going

to know. At the same time, you can kind of figure out things about killers. And I know John Douglas has said one of the first things we did we were in the Behavioral Science unit, which is now just the Behavioral Analysis unit, but they said that they one big thing that they had was killers born or are they made? And I remember he said in the in the case of Kemper, you know Edmund Kemper, so in his case he believes he was more made than born

that way. And then others are the proclivity to do things like this or to go that way may come into them at birth. But no matter what it is, there's a variety of reasons why people throughout this way, and I don't think they're ever going to get to the actual one reason. But the fractured identity syndrome is something that happens that again, but I callin it that he is more Quickley's language than the Bundy murders. I talk about this fractured personality and that's what Quickly talked about.

They're fractured. You can't see it, you know. Bunny said something very interesting at one point. He said, when he was growing up he had these two friends. They were great friends of his, Terry Storlewick and and uh and one Dodge, and he and Dodge were born like twenty minutes apart, and they would joke about that. But they were all pretty all pretty of these kids. They did, they were all they were like inseparable. But Bunny would later say he didn't know how to be a like

a friend of it never felt exactly right. In other words, you know, we've all had friends, and when we know we're like and we like them, it just naturally flows. There's not you know, we don't have to look at it and analyze it. It's just the way it is. And I'm sure with Terry Storwick and Warren Dodge, they were just all three friends and there wasn't you know, they weren't analyzing their friendship and just what it's what it was. Bundy, he had a hard time relating. Is

all unspoken. He wouldn't tell this anybody, but he had a hard time relating as being a friend and doing it just it never felt right to him. And so I make the posit in the Bundy Murders that you know, like it's one thing to be like a mixed up, use, not understanding who you are, not feeling normal. You're gonna have all the sympathy in the world for people like that, and then it's another thing to go from that to becoming a predator of women and the destroyer of women.

And but you know, it doesn't surprise me that there are occasions when people feel a certain way. I mean, there's a lot of people out there that grow up like this and don't understand some of the disconnects they have, But almost all of them will never go into murder. So even with something like that where they have a fractured personality, most people still do not do the acts that of Ted Bundy. But some do. And so there's

other factors very well. So a mass fractured personality, I think his was the best thing we can say about it. We can see the results of it, we can partly understand it. That when it gets down to the nitty gritty of why somebody like Ted Bundy became Ted Bundy, I don't think I don't think they're going to figure that one out.

just really shocked at what he does. Well, you know when he got that call one night that there was a guy arrested, arrested in Pensacola who had identified himself as Kenneth Myerston, who was in Tallahassee, a pretty well tack star. And they had all these stolen credit cards on him and things like that. But this is who we identified himself. But well, he had to call Steve Bodiford. You know, John Patrick was the lead detective end up ended up being the lead detective in the Kyle Omega

case for Tallahassee for the Tallahaffe Pde. And so he when this Myson fellow was captured in Pensacola with all these credit cards that were linking him to tallahafthe he called Steve Botiford, detective of the Leon County County Sheriff's Department, and they had to travel at Pensacola, and so, you know, they get there and this is who he says he is, and apparently that he and Miser somewhat resembled themselves. But they found out that the real miss that's not me.

And so they find out while they're down there interviewing this guy that he's not Miser, and for a very brief time, you'll see in the reports he's identified as mister Doe. But there almost immediately goes to Bundy because Bundy had said to them, he had said, you know, if you let me make a couple of personal calls, I'll tell you who I am, and it's really got to he said, you know, I'll he said, this is

going to make you famous, and Passion laughed. He said, oh yeah, well why is it going to make us famous? And anyway came out of course he's dead Bundy. Nobody they hear the Who's dead Bundy And then of course these calls start coming in from kepel Fisher people like that. And but Patsion was an astute, uh detective and what I loved about interviewing him. And by the way, he's still alive. He's had a tremendous amount of problems. I was supposed to go down and see him before COVID

hit and so we had to cancel all that. And he's got operations he's going to go through. But he's actually, uh going to give me his entire case file, and well, he wants me to have it. He told me, he said, even if I'm not alive by the time you come down here, I've already instructed my wife and I want you to have it. And uh you just like for the rest of these guys, we developed a really good friendship and Pacings are really really really nice, nice seller.

But as a detective. He was really shocked. So I'm going to go down the summers, spend a couple of days with him, and and uh pick the honor to pick up the case, spile and bringing home an additive a thousand of a thousand the pages already at and so but he's just a great guy, very analytical in this thinking. And uh, one thing he said about the credit cards, he said, it's unusual for someone to admit that they saw in these cards. And that is what this of these fellow did. That is what this mister

Doe did. They first an he got out of Bundy, he said, Usually criminals will say, oh, no, that must have been in the car. Yes, I'm in the stolen car. I'd get it. But those were already here. But he said, Bundy had no trouble admitted that that was them. He stole the cards. He said, So see that take a tip off, because the main thing in Bundy's mind was not being connected to murder. The credit card deft alone that he was going to prison for many years. He

would be convicted of that many years without question. So anyway, but Passion's a great guy. He's still around. I don't know how long he'll be around, but hopefully. I told Dodd said, don you keep defeating everything, and I like that, and he said, yeah, I got two cardiologists. I got this,

I got that, I got the other. And last time when I supposed to them before, he had developed sepsis and he was in the hospital and just having trouble and they have an operation and they thought he wasn't gonna make it, and his wife said, was you just do everything you can possibly do and don't give up on him, And he made it again. So he's like the cat was not idolyzed. He's a cat with about twenty lives. But I like that, and anybody that would

meat packs and they would like him immediately. He's really a great guy. All these detectives of this way, which is very very nice. People.

Tallahassee was wanting to interview him. But it basically goes two. But that that. But but they had said that Bundy at one point told them told Bontiford and Patrick sm off the tape, stopped the tapes from mine. And he did as he was doing this, he he went in to the things that he likes to do, and and he said, sometimes I feel like a vampire. And you know, he said, you don't understand the significance of Officer Lee stopping me in Pensacola and arresting me, and what happened

in Utah when I was arrested. But when you know more, you will. And I've seen the sheep where Patrick was scribbling. These also got a copy of it, and Bifer was doing the same thing. Yea, even though the tapes were all Bundy may not have realized it, but this stuff was submitted into evidence. And here's the thing about dealing

with killers. There's a lot you're going there's a person out there who's a researcher, and this individual doesn't want to take anything, even from detectives that is on tape. And I said to this person once, say say you're going to do that. It's all that stuff because a lot of the things that they've said that these these

men and women are not on tape. And in fact, if you've seen the movie mind Hunter where they're sitting down with their tape recording and taking notes, none of that happened that John Douglas said, we never used recorders. We took notes only because if we've used a recorder, they'd have backed off, they would have planned up. And so a lot of stuf has come out from what he protectives had gleaned from these killers that was never

on tape. And you know, the course, when Pats and Volifort wanted to submit this into evident, they didn't say, well did you get that on tape. No, he told us this, He said, turn off the tapes. It was admitted into the record, and so you know it's very important. And so Bundy when he said Arnolf the tape, he probably thought, well, I'll just be able to tell some things about how I feel, what I deal with, and

it's going to stay with us, okay. But it didn't, and it came out and I know one thing he said is another thing, and I brought this entire thing out and oh, I could be the Bundy secrets of Ted Bunny's murdiemeisters. I can't remember which I go the whole scenario. I think it's the Bundy secrets. But he said there was a he saw a woman one time that he said, I had to have them like all the bikers, and I had to have it or it's good to be long. And I can't remember, but he

said I had to have it. It was like that said, I gotta do this, I gotta do this. And so he goes into these things to let them know exactly what he's dealing with. And Anson said at one point Bundy, and this is what what that psychiatrist haired about the defense. His name was Tonay. He said that Bundy hinders his own descent sometimes and will help the prosecution. It just

it's a thing he kind of does. But he told when they were asking him about the Kyle magemurs, Bundy said to them, and he said, if you ask me flying out and I say no, but but he was. But he was saying things to them, let them know that, yes, there are things that are there, but he didn't want to have to come out and say it. But at one point he said, the evidence is there, look for it. How about that the evidence is there, look for it.

And of course they did. And when Bundy, you know, when he was involved in the the Florida trial of Kyle Omega and doing depositions during the also the he didn't really it wasn't called council for the Leached trial. But he was basically let them do it. But he might have done some depositions or this where our bouts. They could have come out in the lake uh not Lake Sanich, I'm sorry, but than the ky Omega thing.

But when when he was interviewing, I think it was patching and yeah, it was patching, and he said Pastion said, well, what you know, it can all be cleared up if you could just take us to the oh this is during question. He just take us to where the Leach girl is before they discover the body. He said, I can't do that because it's too horrible to look at, which is an admission that he did it. Otherwise, how would he know if you see what he was doing.

So he was coming out and basically consensing without confessing, so inadvertently. You know that. I have to say that the defense would like to have tried the case with Bundy in Absensia gone somewhere, because Bundy was the main ingredient the torpedoing his own defense in Florida. Yeah, it's just really unbelievable. What if you look at what he did. Angelos as psychologist today touched upon this about how he's just as likely to him to his own defense and

help the prosecution. You got to ask yourself, why why was he doing this? And yet he did it?

them describe the bloody scene within kuy Omega. That's the last thing it's going to come out anyway. But you don't ever want to bring that stuff out because it's going to paint a picture with the jury and they'll be more likely to convict you and even sentence you to death in the penalty phase because of all the horrors that they've had the witness Well, Bundy would call on people to describe this stuff. It's the last thing he should have done. It was an absolute gift to

the prosecution and the investigators thought. The reason why Bundy did this is because he enjoyed hearing about it. Imagine that, and yet it was done at hurt. Yeah, yeah, well that's the whole thing.

That deal with Florida, with the prosecution was altering before Eva Trill went forward. Everybody was convinced to do it, otherwise Florida is going to kill you. But he rejected it. And then course towards the end he was doing everything he could to stave off the execution with his bones, his scheme, but that didn't work.

He said, oh no, they won't forget about it. They won't forget about it. You know, it's too intricate for like them to forget about it. There's just it too much there.

of years. And there will be links and blogs I've written from Amazon that you can will take your Wild Blue Press or you can go to wild bluepress dot com directly go to their authors look me up, and I've got a lot of blog posts archive and in fact I've just recently written another one in the last couple of days, called The Allure of Human Monsters, And so if you google the Allure of Human Monsters, it will bring it up on Google, and it will take your right to wild Blue Press.