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You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about him Gaesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker, Dck. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening. Shortly after NYPD Chief of Detectives Thomas Burns publicly criticized the London police for failing to capture Jack the Ripper, he received a letter purportedly from Jack himself saying New York was his next target. Not long after, Burns was confronted by his own Ripper style murder case, in the death of Kerry Brown, a k a. Old Shakespeare, a colorful character who worked as a prostitute and had
a pension for quoting Shakespeare. Given the near hysteria surrounding the vicious murder, soon after the Jack the Ripper murders in London, people were worried that Jack might have actually come to America. The Detective Bureau finally arrested Emir ben Ali, an Algerian immigrant. The newspapers, however, immediately criticized Burns for moving too quickly, suggesting that he had tried to save
face by pinning the crime on an easy target. When the verdict of murder in the second degree was announced, the papers erupted in anger and disbelief. With the aid of the French Consulate, they embarked on a ten year campaign to have ben Ali pardoned, and finally won his release by producing new evidence. Immediately upon ben Elie's departure for France, fresh evidence of his guilt surfaced. Was ben Eli falsely convicted or falsely exonerated? And if he did
not commit the murder, then who did? Issues of false convictions, fake news, illegal immigration, police corruption, and racial prejudice are common tropes in today's news cycles. The Ripper demonstrates that these are not simply matters of recent vintage, and seeks to answer such questions in trying to determine whether and in what way justice miscarried. The book that we're featuring this evening is The East River Ripper, The mysterious eighteen
ninety one murder of Old Shakespeare. With my special guest prosecutor and author George R. Veekal Senor. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. George Deacal, thank you very much. This is an extraordinary book due out the end of this month August thirty first, so so glad to have you here before anybody else got the chance to talk to you.
Well, thank you. You will be the first person that has interviewed me about but.
Incredible. Before we start this extraordinary book, you talk about your thirty years as a prosecutor. Give us your background before we start talking about the East Ripper.
Well, I was. I'm a fifth generation North Meridian, lived in a small town all my life, went to the University of Florida, went to law school there, came back to the hometown and started practicing law as a public defender. Practiced public defender about two years, and then went with his State Attorney's office for thirty years and prosecuted just beout every kind of crime you can imagine, from criminal
mischief to capital murder. Wow, including let's stay gentleman that you've mentioned in your lead in Ted Bondy.
Wow. Interesting, let's talk about in your introduction you talk about Eugene Borschan's that that's a proper denunciation of his nineteen thirty one book, Convicting the Innocent, An Account of the wrongful conviction of a mere Ben Ali, tell us about your how you came to be the author of this book, and tell us a little bit more about Eugene Borshin's book. And you say that very much that almost every treatment of this case has been Tookorshon's book
and accepted those findings at face value. So tell us a little bit about Eugene Borschan's book.
Okay, Well, the first time I ever heard about his book was in a voor dire of a jury back in the early seventies, a defense attorney mentioned it, asking the jurors ever read the book. Of course, he was trying to poison the minds of the jury by putting that sort of a name in front of him, and because he got very angry with him, and I never thought anything about reading the book. But until I started
to research his case. I came across the case researching the last book that I wrote, which was a book about another murder in New York City that was prosecuted by the same man who prosecuted the the East River Ripper case. And in research in that book, I read his biography, and he had a chapter on his on his murder, and uh, I got interested in it because it it seemed like a a rather interesting case. And there's some things he said in the in them in
the book about the case. It just didn't quite make sense.
Uh.
And I looked around and found some other references and found Porcher's book and read it was just a chapter in his book that was only a lead case. There were a number of other Each chapter to vote was devoted to another case about some some man who supposedly convicted in innocent.
And then.
I found the transcript of the trial and the transcript of the of the inquest that was held before the trial. Ruh, I could not reconcile Borchard's intimation that this particular prosecutor was corrupt with my knowledge of the prosecutor. It just didn't make sense to me that the prosecutor would knowingly prosecute an innocent man. And I wanted to try to resolve the you know, the friction between those two those twupositions.
Plus I had learned about the chief detectives Thomas Burns, who was a giant figure in the in the Ilden Age New Yorker, a tremendously gifted detective, and H I again had some difficulty seeing him framing an innocent man, so I dug into it.
UH.
I read the trial transcript, I read the UH, all of the newspaper accounts I could find. I read the UH, the the the memoirs of of a couple of men who were involved in the case. Other men who were involved in the case. One of the doctors had written UH rather extensively about it and trying to figure out, you know, what happened. Was this man really innocent? Or was he guilty? UH?
Was he.
Properly convicted?
UH?
Or was he uh? Or was he railroaded? And at the end of the book, I give three possible scenarios as to what happened in the case. Because you know this happened over one hundred years ago. You can't say with certainty what happened. All you do is say what probably happened, and the UH there were there are three scenarios that fit the facts. I give the three scenarios UH, and then I away which is those three I think is most likely? And you know, if if a reader
wants to choose one of the other two scenarios. Uh, they're welcome to do it, won't hurt my feelings at all.
Yeah.
But but the I think that one of those three is what happened, and a lot of the things that the traditional story about the case say don't are untrue under any of those three scenarios. Under no scenario did the police try to frame Ventalle. Under no scenario was there any prosecutorial misconduct to amount to to intentionally framing the man, you know, if if he if he was innocent. Under one scenario, he got himself convicted by lying like
a cheap clock. Under another scenario, uh, he got himself convicted because a man not affiliated with the police withheld crucial evidence of his innocence for in years and then didn't reveal it until it.
Was his.
It was to his advantage to do it. And under the third area, he's guilty.
Let's start with the connection that interested the press, frightened the populace, and would interest every true crime reader obviously, the connection to Jack the Ripper. So in your book you talk about August thirty first, eighteen eighty eight, Marianne Nichols, London's Whitechapel District. People here hurt her cries, but no one came to her, aid her throat was cut, nearly severing her head, and he repeatedly slashed her Torso, so you continue to chronicle the Emma Ellis Smith died on
April fourth, eighteen eighty eight. Later, Martha Turner suffered thirty nine wounds. So you go through that Jack the Rippers, a fault of women in Whitechapel, and the horror and all of the story that that emanated from the newspaper frenzy as a result. But but tell us about the connection why this bill Jack the Rippers connected to this story?
Okay, Well, a tremendous amount of of uproar in London. Uh over these over these killings.
H and.
Anybody who got any prostitute who got stabbed with a knife after the first one of these murders was immediately jack the Ripper was the person who did it. And the twelve I think murders that I chronicled in the first chapter only five or reliably attributed to Jackie Ripper. But at that time, right everybody thought that Jackie Ripper
did all of them. And uh so, uh, I wrote I wrote that chapter f through the eyes of someone in the nineteenth century, not not a a Jack the Ripper ologist looking back on it as to as to what it was called JACKI Ripper. Uh, just a kind of sidelight on uh on the story. But anyhow, Thomas Burns was uh. He was world renowned as uh as one of the greatest to take ers of the age. And he said some rather unkind things about.
Uh the the.
Uh London police's ability to uh to make an arrest, and uh they got published in the London papers. And and then we've got this letter supposedly from Jackie Rippers and batten down the hatches here I come.
Uh.
And not long after that a prostitute in the slums, just like White Chapel was a slum area, and there were all prostitutes that were killed by Jack the Ripper. And a prostitute in the slum is butchered uh in very much the same fashion as the traditional typical Jack the Ripper murders. She is uh, her her genital area is is butchered, her stomach is rod ripped open, her or her and her intestines are pulled out. The only difference between her death and the death of most of
the Jack the Ripper victims. Is that Jack the Ripper victims had their throats cut and the New York City victim, Kerry Brown was strangled. So you know, the first first people coming in and looking at the scene, the first thought that came to their mind was Jack the Ripper, And so they went round and round all kinds of speculation in the press that was this Jack the Ripper.
Is Jack the Ripper come And right after the conviction of of a Lee, the Burns hinted that he had evidence that ben a Lee was in London during the time that the Ripper murders were being committed over there, right, So you know, uh not doubt very seriously whether being
a lead with Jack the Ripper. Uh not doubt very seriously that Jack the Ripper came to the United States and committed to murders just to rub Thomas Burns his nose in uh in the uh uh bragging that he had done about how the net or police would have called the Ripper.
So you have you have the press in London goating over the idea that this Burns who had from New York City, this sophisticated guy that would would tell them and that's what he wrote that this is the techniques that he would use to employ to try to find Jack the Ripper. They were, you say, they were delighted that Burns now had his own ripper on his own hands and now had the pressure to make an arrest.
Well, it wasn't so much the the London press as the London police.
Mm hmm.
They were. They were quite pleased that Burns was in a position where he could no longer talk about them and had his own ripper case to have to solve.
You know, the the traditional story was that Burns said he'd have if Jack the Ripper came to New York City, he'd have he'd have the Jack in jail within either twenty four, either forty eight or thirty six hours, depending on depending on on who on the which version of the story you heard, and in actuality, he had bin a Lee if Beinalley was the actual killer, had him
in jailed within twelve hours. So if he may, if Burns made the boast, which he says he never did, and if Beneley was murder, he beat his post a good twelve to thirty six hours.
You have the extraordinary status that the media had at that time in London, Jack the Ripper invigorated the newspaper business, and so it was they had never seen anything like this, and so this was truly really good for the newspaper business in London, and so in New York when they got these I am right here and I expect to kill somebody by Thursday. So go get ready for me with your pistols. But I have a knife and has done more than your pistols. Next thing you'll hear of
some women dead yours, truly, Jack the Ripper. And then you talk about the New York Harold another note in and written in red ink, and he said he had just written, doctor of Detective Burns that I'm in America. So this was a frenzy. This was a This was a frenzy for the media having this kind of crime, having these kinds of characters involved. Tell us about what Burns' response is now as an investigator in this case.
Burns was extremely closed my mouth right at the beginning, and he probably should have been even more closed mouth than he actually was. There's all kinds of confusion, is there always is at the outset of any kind of an investigation. Library'st I've been in a number of similar type investigations that you know, people running around like chickens with a head chopped off. The information is coming in. It may be true, it may not be true. It gets spread around, and Burne says some things to the
to the press that didn't pan out. He made some informations to the press that he knew who the murderer was and had to and all I had. The only thing he had to do was find him. And the murderer was a man that they call Frenchie number two, and ben A Lee went by the went by the nickname of Frenchie because Algeria at that time was a possession of France, and all Algerians were subjects of France, and French had actually served as French soldier during the
Franco Prussian War. So you know, that's how you got the name Frenchie. So Burne just saying that there's Frenchy number one, uh and Frenchy number two. French number one was simply in the hotel across the hall from where the murder occurred, and Frenchie number two was in the hotel room with carry brown murderinger.
And they.
Searched for Frenchie number two. He finally found FRENCHI number two and French number two had at an ironclad alibi as oops. And then instead of you know, saying, telling the press put out the fire and call on the nobs, we're not we're not interested in French number two anymore, he didn't say anything because that's kind of egg on his face. And then he's Frenchy number one and this, you know, this kind of you know, raises it raises the antennas. People say, Hey, what's going on here?
Uh? Is is he.
Being shooting straight with us? Or is he dealing off the bottom of the deck. Uh, there's something that right here. So this roused the suspicion of the press.
And the.
They became quite confrontational with him after that. Say that kind of started the sourness between him and the press.
Can can you explain for us the what we haven't talked about is anything about who this Carry Brown was. You give this background that once upon a time she was doing quite well, she ruined her life with alcohol. Tell us a little bit about Carrie Brown, but also this frenchie one, Frenchy two and this notorious hotel that you say that this was not the only homicide, and in fact, there'd been an homicide in this room before.
It was called the Rains Hotel, so it was the kind of hotel you write that you could get a drink in the basement and then go upstairs with a lady of the evening. So that's the kind of tell it was, So first about this. Tell us first about the rooms thirty one and thirty three in their significance, and then also we didn't mention an extraordinary thing was a symbol was carved on one buttox and her genitals
were slashed. So tell us about the room scenario, and then more about the blood and the blood that was found in the condition of carry Brown.
Okay, Well, first off, Kerry Brown was a very respectable woman at one point in her life, a mother, the wife of a sea captain, and she took to drink and basically ruined her life. Her husband was actually a captain of a ship in the Union Navy during the Civil War, but he finally got fed up with her, divorced her, and she wound up moving to New York worked for a while as an actress, and the supposition is that's where she picked up all her lines from Shakespeare.
And finally the drink got there so bad that that the only way she could make a living was as a prostitute. The one place that she frequented to uh work as a prostitute was this East River Hotel also known as a Fourth Ward Hotel, also known as the House of All Drinks. And on the first floor was a bar, and in the bar was where the men and the women would meet up. They would drink, they would uh agree on services to be rendered, and then
they would retire to the upstairs. It was a five story hotel, and the way they've numbered the way they number of stories back in the back in the eighteen nineties, the first there was ground floor, first, second, third, and fourth floor, So the fourth floor is what we'd actually called the fifth floor. But anyhow, up on the top floor was where Carrie Brown went with her John on
the night of her murder. They met she they bought a bucket of beer for a nickel to go up the stairs or one stairwell going up to the to the top floor, and up the stairs down the hall. At the end of the hall was room thirty three, and it was the best room, probably the best room in the in the the house because it had two windows. It was a corner corner house. They retired into that room and later that night Ben a Lee came in and he rented room thirty three, which was right across
the hall. Carrie and her John were in room thirty one, and Ben a Lee was in room thirty three, which was right right across the call. Heady cornered across the hall. Okay. At some point during the night, then John left, and then early that morning Ben a Lee left and the janitor saw him leaving, and nobody saw that John leave when ben and Lee left. The janitor saw him leaving and he said he looked like he was sneaking out.
And then when the maid went up to uh uh check on the on the rooms, make sure everybody was out, she found the body, I say the maid. I forget whether it was the maid or the janitor that found a body. But the room, the door was locked, had to be unlocked, and uh so the killer had left the room, locked the door, and the key was gone. They had to get the master key to go in.
Mm hmm. You also talk about tell us what was carved on her buttocks.
There was a cross carved on her on her on her buck. She was naked uh uh, sprawled under the cover uh bedclothes in her uh uh her shift we'd been wrapped around her head and uh the pretty graphic description from the uh autopsy report of the uh the carving, the depth of the carving, and uh and whatnot and uh the slashes to her vaginal area and her uh and her uh uh uh deep ragged, lengthy slashes and s part of her intestines small intestines had been taken
out and placed between her legs. And there was a knife found, a bloody knife found in the bed beside her.
Yeah, let's use as an opportunity to stop, just for a second for these messages.
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You talked about the incredible that Carrie Brown was left in mutilated with her intestines out of her body positioned, But what about the police arriving once they were called? You mentioned Edward Fitzgerald, the janitor, and then someone that
had also was involved, another William Thomas. So police arrive, tell us about the blood evidence in thirty three and thirty one, When the police arrive, tell us about the media arriving with the corner, tell us about this whole incredible situation that arises.
Okay, well, the police arrive. I think there was Captain O'Conner who was the first first officer to look at in the scene. He just looks at the door. God, that's awful. Need to call the corner backs out. He places an officer by the name of Malarkey down at the bottom of the stairwell. Nobody goes up, nobody comes down. Maintain crime scene integrity until the corner gets here. Now, at this point, nobody has noticed any blood stains outside of the.
Of the.
Room, right, Yeah, there's blood all over the room, Room thirty one, But nobody's noticed any blood stains in the hallway or anywhere else on the top floor. The corner finally arrives and Corner Schultz is man I was familiar with because he was a corner in the previous book, previous case that I wrote a book about. And to put not to put too fine a point on it,
but to corner Schultz is an income poop. He botched the corner's investigation in the previous case that I that I wrote about, and he screwed up the investigation in this case. Also, he you know, the corner is a is a public official, he has authority, and so he trapeses up the room thirty one, which he has the authority to do, and carries about a dozen newspaper reporters with him. Right, okay, now, crime scene integrity is ruined.
And not only does they do they go up up on the fourth floor with him, They go into the murder scene with him. But he is absolutely positive certain you know that they didn't touch anything, and they didn't step in any blood. They just stood there and talked while he examined the body.
And so.
They get the parade of reporters out and gone, and the police more police officers arrive. They start looking around and trying to try to find, uh, trying to determine, you know, places that could been used for escape, trying to see if there's any evidence that they could be found.
And and they see blood stains on the floor, on the hall all the way and on the door, and they follow the blood stains in the very minute, blood stains across the hall into room thirty three, and they find blood stains in the room thirty three, which has
been a lee's room. Okay, now, I think this first thing in the morning when they get there when the police arrive and nobody has noticed any blood stains outside of the room until four o'clock in the afternoon, right, which would have been fine if they had had good crime scene integrity from the time they arrived, the time that off from a larkey had been stationed at the bottom of the stairwell to keep people out, and the
time that they went to processing the scene. Now you've got all kinds of of uh potential for some reporter possibly got blood on the bottom of his shoe and tracked it out. And so you know, there's great weakness in the in the in the blood stained evidence outside the room, and in the uh in room thirty three,
even because the room got circulated after the trial. That's some of the uh that a couple of reporters side of that'd string blood all over the top floor of the of the hotels and make this crime more sensational than already was, which you know, sounded me like a ridiculous story, but uh, but that was the rumor that was being being bandied about. Of course, the the received story is that the officers planted all this evidence up there.
But uh, yeah, you know, it's uh, there's and there's a British UH official who would be accused of the conspiracy theory sometimes some sort of a conspiracy one time and he said, no, that the conspiracy theory doesn't explain what happened. The cock up theory explains what happened. And uh that uh, you know, if the blood was not planning, was not uh left by the perpetrator, it was left by accident and as a result of the inconfidence of
the corner. So you know, you don't need a conspiracy theory or corrupt police to explain the presence of the bloodstains in the hallway. And even more than that, you don't need to be you don't need to.
Be too.
Critical of the police, not for them not to have noticed the bloodstains if they were there that morning before or four in the afternoon, because there had a lot of things going on. That was a horrific scene, and it's easy to overlook small things like miniscule blood stains. And I gave a few examples of things being overlooked or homicide scenes that was involved. As a matter of fact, two of bodies were overlooked.
So let's let's let's talk about let's talk about the the idea, now that they believe that ben Ali is there there. Once they had dismissed him as a suspect. Now they believe he is the killer, and so now they quickly organize the coroner's inquest, which would ends up being just like a preliminary because it's certainly not a trial. So, yeah, tell us about the arrest of ben Ali and and also the idea that his grasp of English, how good is it? And what do they do in response to that?
Okay, Well, the criminal procedure in New York at the time homicide. You, when you had a homicide, he started off with the coroner's in quest, right, determine if there was a if there was a chronal act, and who was responsible for it. And then you held a preliminary hearing which called in which they called an examination, and then you had a trial. Okay. In in Ben A Lee's case, they held the coroner's inquest and then his lawyers waived the examination of the preliminary hearing and then
we just went straight to trial. But uh, the I think that they that that Burns had his eye on Ben A Lee from the very beginning, uh, right, as as a possibility because they he's he's talking about French number two. We gotta find frenching number two. And he does that for a period of days. We're looking for french and number two. But all the time he's looking for French and number two. They're cutting, They're taking they're taking Bentilee's clothing and cutting blood stains out of it
to be examined by a lab analyst, doctor Edson. They're taking his socks because there's a blood stain on his sock to doctor Edson. And they are digging the dirt out from under his fingernails to take to doctor Edson to be examined on the possibility that there's blood under his fingernails. And so they're doing all those things, and it doesn't seem to me they would be doing all those things if they didn't have some suspicion that he
was a man. They arrested him as a material witness, but I think they suspected all along that he very well could have been the person who did it.
Right, you talk about the material witnesses, This is interesting that the material witnesses are in fact incarcerated in the House of Detention for Witnesses. I thought that was interesting that they knew where exactly those witnesses were because they were behind bars essentially exactly.
You know, that's something that was done even up to quite recently in Florida. I remember when I was in high school, we had a rape case. They got a lot of bad publicity because the victim was put in jail and they accused was released on bail. So the victims sitting in jail waiting for trial and the defendant is out walkin the street or if they don't do that in Florida anymore, but as over fifty years.
Ago, now at this at coroner's inquest again, like you say that they waive the examination afterwards and then they go right to the right to trial. But at this in quest there is a little bit of an audition of how evidence will work. And there's a prosecutor named Wellman, and you alluded to him already. Yeah, you talk about
his reading his memoir later on. But so tell us just briefly, because we've got to get to the most important thing, which is the tr While anything extraordinary at that inquest, and again I asked, how did they accommodate this ben Ali's Apparently he couldn't speak English very well. So how do they accommodate him at this inquest and that trial.
They accommodated him with with translators, interpreters. They were I forget the names of the interpreters at the inquest, Constance Perco and chileman by the name of Martin. Who who were the who are the interpreters at the inquest?
And then.
At the trial they Martin was replaced by a man whose name mis cakes me.
I can't I can't remember where or assaultan his name is Sultan, okay, miss Sultan.
That's right, and uh but anyhow, uh, that's uh uh that's how they how they did it. French he or ben A Lee spoke a language. It was a kind of a mixture of French and Algerian or or or Arabic, kind of like you know on the on the border of Texas and Mexico, they speak a kind of a rich language called tex mex Right, that was that was
the language that French he spoke. So they had a at the uh, at the at the trial or at the inquest, they had a French interpreter and an Arabic interpreter, so so they could get him make sure that he knew everything was going on. Of course, he also spoke English quite well.
Yeah, he.
Exhibited a syndrome that I had noticed people from outside the country. You get themselves arrested and charge the crimes. They English, Yeah, and they h and you know, and I just kind of bogs. The bogs processed down and you have to get them an interpreter.
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Soon we'll be talking about Frenchie at this trial. But he has this interpreter there and when there is the sentence and the conviction at this inquest, when they have their determination, he believes that he doesn't understand that it's just an inquest. What is his behavior at this inquest? And he is frustrated or posse certain questions? Tell us how he acts and let's get to okay.
Well, he he didn't answer any questions at the at the at the inquest other than just a few questions that were put to him by the by the coroner and filled out on a sheet. But you know, he was he was sullen, He was morose, uncooperative. He would get rather vocal at times. But he really, want to say, showed out at the trial when he actually testified for the jury. He you know, that might have been the turning poor of the case as far as him getting himself convicted.
Was the.
The way he behaved on the witness stand.
And what was that? How did he act?
He basically acted like a wild man.
Uh.
He jumped up and down, waved his arms, shouted, uh, evaded the questions that that he was being asked by the by the by the prosecutor and the prosecutor did a very stupid thing. He took the knife and I gave this this man he believes to be a mad dog killer. Yeah, and walks over to them, walks over to him and hands him the knife.
Yeah.
Okay, it's not a real good idea to have a deadly weapon to a man that she's thinks it a mad dog killer. And french he erupts, or ben a Lee erupts and waves the knife and whoops and hollers and scares the mud out of the prosecutor, and the judge calls out, take that knife away from him, and they get the knife away from him, and it showed him, and showed Frenchy in a whole different light from the way that he had been trying to portray himself in front of the chery. He looked like a man who
could rip somebody to pieces of the knife. At that point he'd been in front of the jury. He had been meet mild bit over, trying to act as pitiful as he possibly could. I'm pretty sure that the defense attorneys had tried their best to get him not to take a witness stand, but he insisted on taking the witness stand. And I think he I think that he went a long way towards shaking his case when he did.
You write about the This is impressive too, and I've read this about other cases, but it's still shocking and startling for people to read now about the crowds and the mobs that were everywhere outside the courtroom. At every point there was a huge crowd. In fact, you right, at one point, the police had to fight off these It was beyond curious onlookers had to fight them off physically. And the media was very sympathetic. You say there was
some not they weren't all in agreement. But the media was sympathetic towards Ali, weren't they.
Oh yeah they At that time in New York City, I think there was a newspaper on every street corner. M m uh there were. The story was massively covered by the newspapers.
Uh.
Some of the newspapers were skeptical of of u ben Lee's uh poor pitifile b act and his men no speak of the English act. Uh, but most of them, uh you know, they swaller to hookline and sinker, and they uh portrayed him as as being the poor, friendless child of the desert who is being u crushed in the in the in the cogs of the of this relentless uh legal system. It was being completely unfair to him.
M Uh.
You know, that's the way they played it.
At the same time, at the same time at this trial. You you talk of the in your mind, quite impressive forensics, especially given the time. And this does come down to the forensic evidence, uh, and that being something to do with those intestines that were taken out of the body. So tell us what evidence they had that pointed at Ali and his involvement. Well, with those intestines, the.
Most damning evidence against ben a Lee came from under his fingernails. You know, you can forget the bloodstains in his room, Room thirty three, You can forget the blood stains on his clothes, you can forget the bloodstains in the hall. The bloodstains under his fingernails were examined by two of the most forensic doctors medical legal men in the nation at that time. I mean they were head and shoulders above everybody else in the country as far as their ability, skills, abilities.
And they.
Came up and they and they said the blood under his fingernails came out of carry Brown's intestines. And they not only said that it came out of carries out Browns in testines, they said that he came out of a certain specific portion of carry Brown's intestines. And the kicker is that they said this before they got the autopsy report, and then he went and got the autopsic well. As a matter of fact, the two of them, there was a little bit of discussion. Doctor Flint said, you know,
this comes from this portion of the woman's intestines. And doctor Formatt said, I wait a minute, I ain't said that. I'm sure they may have come from the large intestines.
You know.
Format says no, and Flint says, no, they from the small intestines. That they come from this part of small intestine the blood come. And so they went and got the autops report. Hadn't got an autopics report yet. They bring the autopsy report in, they opened it up, they read it and the only part of her intestine is cut is a part of the intestine that doctor Flint said the blood came from.
So he was correct.
Uh, And you know they were they were doing forensics that a modern crime lab would have a hard time to do it.
And it's.
At the end of the corner's inquest. The prosecution had a losing case. They had this uh one doctor who was out of his league that had examined the blood, and the case was not strong, and they did what lawyers frequently do, is they waited until the last back a minute to see about trying to score up that evidence and recruit uh some experts who knew what they
were doing. And so as they're picking the jury, doctor Flint format and doctor Flint or going back over the examination that doctor Edson did and finding all kinds of things, and so uh uh when they get through with their when they get through with their examination, the blood, the blood under Frenchy fuingernails either came from Carry Brown's intestines or the intestines of some other woman who had eaten
the same kind of food. Carry Brown had had the same illness that Carry Brown had, and also had intestinal parasite, the same intestinal parasites that the Carry Brown had.
Wow, and.
I don't think that there's no record of another woman in uh in New York City that night that got killed exactly just like that. So any theory of ben A Lee's innocence has got to account for what is carry Brown's blood doing under his fingernails.
Yeah, you write about the legal team of Friend, House and Levy with the big star being this House and he had previously earlier had been sick. They said something
about exhaustion, physical exhaustion, but he was physically sick. But then he came to You write about how eloquent he was and how he tried to defend this alley and also what strategy they employed to do this tell us a little bit about this eloquent sounding experienced attorney House and Friend and Levy and their strategy to defend Well.
The most criminal trials that I have been involved being boil down to a war between logic on one side and emotion on the other. Mm okay, And it's usually the uh the prosecution that has the logic and it's the defense that has the emotion. That's one thing I really liked about trying circumstance levels murder cases. You can't generate a whole lot of emotion in the s for for the defense defendant, and the circumstance level is murder.
But anyhow to tide the point? Uh So they play uh ben a Lee up as.
Uh a.
Ignorant, uh innocent uh stranger in a strange land who is uh just been confronted and run over by this by this massive of bureaucracy of the of the New York Police Department, uh and just totally unable to defend himself because of his lack of ability to speak, his lack of understanding. Uh you know uh uh yeah. Have you heard that the country song poor poor pitiful be Yeah, Okay, that's that's the uh that's song that he was saying, poor poor pitiful he h, poor poor pitiful of lee.
And he did an excellent job of making this person, uh, making him as sympathetic as he possibly could uh and at the same time making the witnesses who had to fight against him uh as unattractive as possible, because if you got testified for the prosecution, you have a bunch of prostitutes and pimps and uh drunkards, and uh then
you have the police, of course. Uh So on the one hand, we've got this uh, this poor penniful guy who's being run over by the police, and they're trying they're depending on uh uh gutter snipes pulled out of the worst slums of the city to try to convict him. And that's the uh. And that's the uh, the uh, the the story he's picking to him. And of course, you know he waves the flag. We're an America presumption
of innocence. You know, despite the fact that he's this poor child of the desert, is so so ignorant and unlettered and whatnot, that doesn't mean that he doesn't have the same uh presumption of venison. Had been trying to the same presumption to anybody.
Mm hm.
So that's that's the dicht. It's a good one, yeah, uh. And before the right Jerry, it could.
Work now despite these despite the media support, despite an eloquent House and and in his opening statement, his closing statement, a valiant effort by friend House and Levy, and even the testimony of Frenchie. Once again, Ali, what is the verdict? And you talk about this being a capital case. He was charged for first degree murder, but explain the jury has discretion with that degree of murder, don't they.
Yeah, the law as it relates to lesser included offenses. As you know, every first gree murder includes within it the second degree murder and manslaughter, and in some jurisdictions third degree murder. Also, you know, if you commit first grew murder, you've also committed all those lesser included offenses.
Uh So if you are charged the first grew murder and the jury is not satisfied that the first grew murder is proven, then they can find the defendant guilty of the lesser crime, the second degree murder or manslaughter, and the judge instructured jury on those lesser offenses, and the jury then has the has the discretion to find the guilty of a lesser included offense. And uh that's what they did in this particular case. And uh, you know, and the press frosted at the mouth about that. Oh
it's you know, his first dream murder is nothing. Uh well yeah, I used to as I used to say when I was a defense attorney, talked to jury. So they may be tracks to maybe a bold, but it ain't nothing till the umpire calls and uh, you know, it may be first scream murder and maybe not, but it ain't anything until the jury makes his pronouncement. And the jury made his pronounced and they pronounced his secondary murder. So that's what it is.
What was what was Ali's reaction at this verdict. Uh, talk abouts at.
First he thought he was gonna be At first he thought he was gonna be executed, right, Uh and uh they explained to him that he wasn't gonna be executed, and he was relieved at that point, and he he was not real happy. Well, haven't been arrested his laugh in prison.
But that beats the alternative, right, we missed the talk about that. At one point in this trial they tried to employ jailhouse informants or people that came forward and said that that Ali had had a gun in prison previously, was in for a little stint. I mean, not much was Yeah, not much was made of that. But so now that he is convicted, as the same attorneys considering an appeal, what happens in that regard?
Okay, they found a notice of appeal and then there's no record of any opinion by the appellate court, which.
You know, my.
Take on that would be, well, they got to procure in affirmance, in other words, that it was affirmed without opinion. That's why there's no opinion. So apparently the appellate court didn't see anything wrong with the case as far as any error was concerned, and it was, you know, it was a pretty clean case. There was you know, there were things that they did that the prosecution did that today would cause a mistrial.
Yeah, it was said.
Yeah, the things that were said. You know that the prosecution said some things that that would offend the twenty first century sensibilities, but they said in the nineteenth century and the defense sat right in there and did not object. Right, So you know, it was a different time, different standards. And uh, you know, but if you know, if you're going to criticize the prosecution for something, uh, that would probably be what you would what I what you what I criticized him for?
And uh.
And and the funny part of it is, or the hi wartic part of it is, is I think that the prosecutor who made those statements De Lancey Nickel, honestly sincerely thought he was trying to be fair. He was so blind to the racial prejudice that he was that he was espousing that he didn't realize that it was that it was on fair.
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Now, you talked about that pretty well. You said you describe it depicted as a clean trial. It was. It was well done. There was no misconduct. We'll say. Now, there was a person that was present the day, apparently that coroner Schultz went up to the room. His name is Jacob Riss. Yes, what happens in the ensuing ten years, as we alluded to in the title with this Jacob Riss, the newspaper man and the fate of Ben Ali Okay.
Well, Ben a Lee. There's continuing newspaper articles during the time that Ben a Lee is in prison about how he was railroaded and about what a hard time he's having. And he melted down in prison and wound up and wound up being sent to Meddle Institution Matta a when middle institution. And so they, like I said, a frenchie or beIN a Lee served in the French army, and the French consulate had assisted the defense during the trial. Now this poor and friendless man had the assistance of
the French government at the trial. And over the years while he was in prison, there was a continuing, sporadic, sort of a newspaper campaign of dropping articles about this poor man who's in prison, and continuing efforts on the part of the French consulate to have him.
Pardoned.
There were I forget exactly how many pardon petitions that were presented to how many different governors, at least three governors, Governor Flower, Governor Roosevelt, and finally Governor Oh gosh lost his name, the governor who actually community's centives, well, I can't remember his name anyhow, uh and uh So, the there was a sort of a pr campaign on the part of the papers and a sort of a legal
campaign on the part of the French consulate. And over the years more and more support was was gotten for it, and they they thought that they had a pretty good shot at it. Okay, was the governor Black was one of the governors, and then and then the fourth governor who's who actually pardoned him, but I still can't remember his name. But anyway, when Black was h was governor, was when they thought they were gonna be able to
get him pardoned for sure. And and he brained another inmate with the club and they kind of ruin that pardon attempt. And then they came back when Roosevelt was was the governor and what and uh Roosevelt turned the pardon petition down. He said there was no evidence of innocence, there was no way of there's nothing to change the verdict. M And they said at that time that they thought that they were gonna give it another shot. They thought
that they would find some evidence of innocence. So after Roosevelt gets out of office, they come back to the next governor, Odell Odell, that's right, Benjamin Odell, and they've got a man who says that, uh, I know who French, you know who the carry Brown's john was. He worked for me. His name was Frank mm hmm. And the night that carry Brown was murdered, he came back to the he came came back to the farm where I'm where I where I live, uh, real late at night
and uh he had a bloody shirt. And then he up and left without getting leaving the affording address and left a key in his room. And I took the key and went down to the uh uh to the East River Hotel. And I compared it to the keys on the keyboard up there on the East River Hotel uh uh keyboard behind the counter there by. Golly, it was identical to those Kings River Hotel keys. Wow, so it was.
Uh.
So, he's he's good for it. He's he's a man that he did the murder Frank. And I decided I wouldn't say anything about it because that man who's uh sitting in jail facing the death penalty for uh the murder. Uh, he's a bad man. He needs to be in jail anyway. So I waited for ten years before I come forward with this information.
Yeah.
Uh no, I don't remember Frank's last name.
They called him Frank the Dane.
Frank Dana. Yeah. I called him Frank the Dane, Frank the disappearing Dane.
Yeah. And uh, you know, nobody credibility, despite any credibility to this story, does it work. Does the media accept it?
All the media is swallowed it. The hook line is thinker pointed out by Austin Flynn and his memoirs, no investigation was done to check on the veracity of the story. Right, And when they pitched this information to the governor Governor Odell,
nobody from the DiscT Attorney's office showed up to oppose it. Okay, Right, And Governor Odell despite the one sided presentation at the hearing that he held, despite the lack of opposition to the pardon by the district Attorney's office, and the district had a new different had a different district attorney at that time, who, by the way, did not like the New York Police Department. But despite you know, all of that, and despite the support of some very prominent people, O'Dell
does not pardon the uh French. Nobody noticed that O'Dell didn't pardon him. He commuted his sentence, right, and the terms of commutation were if he ever got convicted of another fellow, that he'd go back to president for the rest of his life and made and he commuted his sentence and made arrangements to turn him over to the French consulate and put his carcass on a boat back
to Europe. Yeah, okay, so and he says in his uh uh, he says in his order commuting the sentence that this he doesn't mean to reflect anything on the on the quality of the police work or anything else. It's just enough doubt that this is correct thing to do, so he does it. And I I made the observation that, uh, you know, it would have been nice to see this honest citizen who waited ten years to come forward the
key cross examined about that. And after the the book was out, a friend of mine who was interested in the case found a newspaper article where this guy had testified in another lawsuit and somehow the lawyer on the other side had got to cross examined him about the key and about the finding, and the guy melted down on cross examination. Yeah, you know, he would not have been able to withstand a competent cross examination by a competent prosecutor if it had a you know, a full
blown hearing. Yeah, And I wish I'd owned that up.
But you talk about Ali and him departing for France immediately in the introduction, we talk about that they finally thought they had new evidence to exonerate him. But soon after in the introduction you write that fresh evidence of his guilt surface. Well, what was that fresh evidence that made these people rethink their positions, or at least what new evidence in surface?
Sultan the interpreter, Sultan mh. Unfamiliar with with the requirements of somebody who's working for the defense, and unfamiliar I think with the Turner cloud privilege, told a friend of his that Frenchie had confessed to him. Yeah, and he gave him the sostics of the confession. It actually, it wasn't the confession. It was I was supposed to meet Carrie. I think it was supposed to meet Carrie after she got through with her business, because he and she were
her boyfrid girlfriend. And I went into the room and she was butchered and I got my hands in her interess and that's how I got a blood under my fingers. Basically story, uh, that kind of story, which you know, if that had been the only story he ever told, he might have got off by telling that story, you know, the kind of an agat the Christie sort of a sort of a an ending to it. But anyhow, that was the that was a statement that he made the
just to the sultan. The Sultan had told his friend he is and who was an actor.
And uh.
When the news that Frenchie had been pardoned, nobody, none of the none of the news papers wrote that that he had been his sentence had been commuted. They wrote that he had been pardoned. Yeah, and uh, Thompson said it was the way to dad a minute, he confessed. Yeah, And and the reporter got got wind of the fact that Thompson was telling some of his friends that that French he had confessed, And so the reporter went to talk to him about it, ask him about it, and
wrote an article about it. And that appeared in one newspaper in Buffalo, New York. And I found absolutely no reporting of it in any New York City newspaper. Yeah, because you know who wants to uh they kind of like kind of like uh Burns with his French he number two did it? Sure kind of egg on the face if I were to run that story.
Yeah, it's in an extraordinary tale. I want to thank you so much for coming on and talking about the East Ripper, the mysterious eighteen ninety one murder of old Shakespeare. It's been fascinating talking to you about this, George, So for people that might want to check this out, do you have an Amazon page? You talk you mentioned your other book that you have written recently, Amazon Amazon page.
I got an Amazon page, and I've also got a page my say off at www Dot bobdekalbooks dot com. Www Dot bobdicelbooks dot com. I've written about nine other books, all of them having to do with with criminal law, and most of them historic murder trials.
That's fascinating. Again, George, thank you so much for coming on and talking about the East River Ripper, the mysterious eighteen ninety one murder of old Shakespeare. Thank you so much. I have a great evening. Thank you so much. Good night,