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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week, another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski, for the program True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. This multifaceted probe of murder, offense, offenders, victims, and characteristics of homicide in American society breaks new ground by examining issues
generally ignored or neglected among researchers. Topics include murders occurring in the workplace and in schools, those perpetrated by gangs and terrorists, those incited by bias, and intimate and intrafamiliar murders. The book discusses sexual killers, serial and mass murderers, and suicide. It also examined psychological and sociological theories on murder and violence, as well as the increasing role the Internet plays in
these crimes. Case studies of actual murderers are included. The book that we're featuring this evening is The Dynamics of Murder. Kill or Be Killed with my special guest journalist and author are Barry Flowers. Welcome back to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Are A Berry Flowers.
It's my pleasure, Dan, I'm happy to be back.
Well, thanks very much. You're very busy man. Like we were talking before, You've got a couple short historical short story crime, true crime, and you have some fictional stuff, and then you have this Dynamics and Murder. We'll talk about the other projects that you have, but we've got quite a bit to cover here and letting people know what this book is about. Now. In the opening we talked mentioned that what really this is is that there's
issues generally ignored or neglected among researchers. Maybe you can start off with this examination of this book, Dynamics and Murder, with what you felt was generally ignored or neglected, and then I'll ask the inevitable question and you can answer that question, why would that be? What? What was? Why did that too? Well?
I think that most criminologists, most true crime writers in particular, tend to focus more on crimes and specific murderers, in particular serial killers, mass murderers, terrorists like these two brothers, the Boston Marathon, charist attack, which is very important of course in our society, but getting to the roots of murders, the precursors the criminal and violent behavior, it's equally important so that we have a better perspective on why these
types of crimes continue to happen over and over again in society.
Tea, Oh, say, go ahead, Well, I was going to say that, I think.
That as a criminologist, I've often tried to focus my criminology books on the factors that have to come together to create homicidal people in the first place. So it's just this relevant in the discussion on killers as to their motivations and precursors, to their character and what we as a society can learn from these characteristics and factors that can help us to maybe better identify these killers and deal with the month we had them in custody.
Now you've done this is a I think which maybe I'm not putting words in your mouth, but I would say that this is quite comprehensive. So, uh, you know, and then you again are outlining that you've tried to examine murder from every possible perspective, which you think that really wasn't done by anyone else. That's obviously why why you've done this is that what you're what you're doing with this book is that this is just much more comprehensive.
You've got every aspect of murder, homicide, whether it be suicide or again from every from kids and family, strangers, and then and then motive sexual So is it this book attempt at just being that much more comprehensive.
Absolutely, I think that's an appropriate word to describe this book. Dan. I wanted to write a book that did have a multi layered approach to murder, including the offenders, victims, and characteristics of homicide in general in this society. I think what I've learned is that murder really comes in many, many facets and is much more than just when we hear about a murder here or there. It's we're talking about serial murders, domestic murders, goup murders, mass murder, terrorists,
related murders. And you've got female perpetrated murders, juvenile perpetrated murders, and then of course men constitute our greatest group of killers. But what's the vast majority of these murders have in common, Dan, is the use of firearms, I'd say that's our biggest issue where it concerns murders in this country and in Canada and elsewhere to the proliferation of firearms is really becoming a problem. I mean, it's been a problem, but it's getting worse.
And that is the.
Key element of homicides these days. A close second factor would be the influence of drugs, alcohol or both. That tends to be a very big factor in perhaps telling people who are potentially homicidal to follow through on theirs. But I would say that what amazes me most during my research and just my knowledge of homicides in general, is how many killers actually believe they can murder someone and get away with it. I mean, that's the that's
the strangest aspect of murder. That few people kill someone with the idea that they're going to spend the rest of their lives in prison or be on death row. I mean, people honestly feel they can murder someone or murder a group of people and still somehow slip through the net. Obviously, many of these must watch CSI or Investigation Discovery. If they did, they realize that the authorities
today have so many means at their disposal. To collect evidence and identify murder suspects, uh, such as DNA ballistics, bloodstains, fingerprints, trace evidence that you're far more likely to be apprehended, tried, and convicted than not. And so if people could look at take it from the back end rather than the front, and then maybe some of these people wouldn't commit their crimes in the first place, murder. But unfortunately it doesn't quite work that way. Most people who commit murders and
the prisons are overflowing with them. Convicted killers simply thought they was prouder than everyone else, or they somehow believed in their minds that their actions somehow justify the means, which is never the case when it comes to murder. And uh, they tend to learned it the hard way.
Well, it's not just a mistake, you know, let's not characterize it as just some simple, uh mistake, misstep. You know, murder is a huge step for anyone. And so and you talked about it, Well, if they knew that they could, they would get caught. But I think part of the phenomena of a lot of the killers, and you've examined, you know, the sex slave murders, those killers of the legos. You have studied the worst, some of the worst murderers
and the worst murders. Yeah, and you realize a lot of this is is maybe just a just another aspect of these killers is their incredible ego that they think they are superior and hence that that they and a lot of it is more out in the justification for murder that these people were in very good anyway, or I was doing them a favor, or they were just the trash or well, a lot of killers that that's.
True, Dan. But the thing is, just about every killer that's on death road today, they tend to find if they've been there a long time, and usually they are because of the pills process. But many of them have to be dragged crying and screaming to the execution chamber because they're so afraid to die. They don't want to experience what they dealt out on others. So I think that even for serial killers, they still don't want to
get caught. Just you know, these take these Boston Marathon Brothers killers, they certainly didn't want to get caught, even though they knew they'd done a horrible, horrible things. Jody Areas didn't want to get caught. I mean right now, she's of course, I'm sure your listeners are familiar with Jody in her case, been dominating the news lately, and she's of course been convicted and is now hoping that she can avoid the same faith that she dealt her
form of her late boyfriends. So they just these killers. They have their various motivations, mind you, everything from prophet to hatred, to revenge, jealousy, collaborating with another killer, and sexual motivation, which is often the case of serial killers. But they never really looked at the big picture. I mean, I've been contact with or written about numerous murderers in prison today that now in retrospect, you know, they regret it.
They you know, wish they'd done this, which they'd done that. But this is always after the fact, not before. So it's obviously not just easy for someone who's spent on killing someone to think about the consequences of their actions for themselves. But if they did just a little bit more, it could make a difference in what happened thereafter for them, and they're victims.
Well, it's it's like the it's very much like the pedophile that is arrested after some sort of leude and criminal behavior involving children are young people and then decides that they don't want to go back to prison, But that doesn't mean that they aren't still a pet phile,
so they turn into a child killer. So the thing is is that you know, you could have that you could have the same sort of thing as well, is that people would certainly there are there are certainly people who are I don't know, not born to kill, but are destined to kill, and people that would certainly kill irregardless. I mean a lot of a lot of the books that have examined on this program have been about killers. That really why it's sort of interest is because it
is such extreme behavior. You know, the Arthur Shawcrosses, the Edmund Kemper's, some of the people that keep the sex slaves and the dungeons and the torture chambers. Some of these people are beyond reproach. But again, in a comprehensive study of murder, there are varying degrees, aren't there.
Yes, absolutely, uh, certainly there are some psychopaths out who derive pleasure out of what they're doing, and you know, they are motivated to keep doing it. They you know, are they feed on their own perverse thrills to do these types of acts of murder and torture. So there are definitely some killers who are lost causes no matter what. But even they still, if they had their own way, they would continue to kill, you know, indefinitely. I mean, they don't really want to be locked up in prison
for the rest of their lives. And certainly most of them do not want to die. I want to be executed, which is the irony of it. And that they're willing to kill, and often in the most inter of ways, and yet they still do not want to meet the same fate atime. So one of the things I came up with in the this study of the dynamics of murder, kill or be killed is that the Internet is beginning to play a more prominent role than homicidal behavior, which
is natural. I mean, it's a natural evolution considering a strong roles in all aspects of society.
Now, so the anti So do you mean, what do you mean by intimate? So tell us tell our audience what you mean by intimate? And why do you think that's just a natural.
Internet? I'm sorry, the Internet? Okay, worldwide Web online? Uh, well, I said, it's it's a natural progression because the Internet is a big part of our society now social media and so killers have also caught on just as non killers have to the online world. So as a result, you have killers who are talking victims the same way that they would outside the Internet. A good example is the Long Island serial killer, which I think some of your listeners may be familiar with.
This is a.
Killer that's been killing prostitutes in the New York Long Islands for a few years now, and at least several of the prostitutes that have been murdered by this so far unknown killer advertised their services on craigs List. So that you know one instant of how the Internet can proved to be something that could be very dangerous for people with there wanted for the wrong reasons, or there too gullible for predators.
Yes, I agree with you too. I agree with you. There's two cases in Canada where one was alured his victim under the pretense that he was a woman to a garage and film the murder. That was in Edmonton, and then, of course the Luca magnota case in Montreal where he created an online presence through social media and Facebook for years creating his own sort of image and then killing human being and define and defiling the body on video and posting that video for everyone to step.
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And then so Yes, the Internet's very, very important for a lot of the narcissistic killers. Some of the killers from the seventies and the eighties would have loved the Internet right now with all the the ability to communicate with people, wouldn't they.
Yes, absolutely, and Dan it makes it that much more difficult for the authorities to track them down using anonymous chat rooms and that sort of thing on the Internet. So certainly some of these brutal killers from the past sixties, seventies, eighties would love to nineties be transported in time as they could, where they have a much wider range of potential victims and an easier way to escape detection. But I'd like to talk a little bit about Jody Areas
if I could, with her case in the spotlight. She's a good example of the female killer that I studied in the Dynamics of Murder. She most females who kill for issues related to love, jealousy, hatred, which are often intertwined, and that's exactly the situation with Jody. Even her murder was certainly over the top, where she stabbed this guy twenty something times and then shot him as well.
It was.
Definitely a brutal personal attack, and she's now hoping that she can have her life spared, most likely to spend the rest of it in prison. When I think of Jody Arius and her attempts to lessen her own guilt while begging for her life the same time, I'm reminded of this great movie I watched once called I Want to Live. I don't know if you saw that one or not, but as Susan Hayward, who won an Academy
Award as a woman sentenced to death for murder. She claims she was innocent to the very end, but eventually she sent to the gas chamber. So in Jody's case, she may or may not suffer the same fate. But she's a great example of how jealous rage can accomplish your goal of killing someone, but at what price to your own life and times? And she's de chroit, you know, she's the family members of her victim, they're suffering, her
own family suffering. So it pains me to hear about these types of cases where people do things in the name of love for hate. I'm an intimate murder and then the consequences are there for everyone to see in a case like hers.
Now, given you've just done this amazingly comprehensive study and examination of murder from all facets and aspects and perspectives, could you have predicted with what you know right now about Jody Arius's background, could you have predicted any of this? Could you have predicted a possibility of such behavior as we're seeing her convicted of?
Absolutely dan As a matter of fact, another true crime short that I've written, the pick Axe Killers just came out recently. It had another version of Jody Arias thirty years ago named Carla Fay Tucker. Carl La Faye was while bringing on drugs and alcohol. She and her boyfriend broke into an apartment of an acquaintance in Houston, Texas, and they used the pick axe to bludgeon him and his female companion. At the time, Carler bragged that using the pick axe actually gave her a sexual thrill.
And so.
What goes around comes around, unfortunately, and just about every murder case that we have in this year twenty thirteen is simply a repeat of something that's happened in earlier generations. In the case of counter Faith, she was convicted and sentenced to death, but her it took a while, of course,
for her sentence to be carried out. In the meantime, she became a born again Christian and the death penalty itself took center stage, and this country and around the world actually is opponents and supporters clashed over what should happened. But similar to Jody Arias, Carl the faith she hers was very violent, wicked type of homicidal action on her part, and she turned her life around in prison, but not
before she'd already done the deed. She eventually was executed, even though she had expressed regrets, just as Jody has to some degree. Jody has yet to really own up, in my opinion, to her crime, but she's still relatively fresh from having done it. If she's also on death flow or in prison for the rest of her life, then after she's been there for a while, she may well come to show more remorse for what she did. But again it's still after the fact, And so that's
the essence of homicidal behavior. Once you're captured and in prison for a while, just about every murderer tends to reflect and you know, have some second thoughts of what happened. But the key in this society, Dan is to try to find a way to get to potential murderers, whatever their issues, to try to reach Dann at a stage before they take that fatal turn where there's no turning back.
Well, that's much easier said than done, isn't it.
So in this that is absolutely true.
Tell us some specific because you've written this book, you have to have come to some conclusions. You've seen the model that hasn't been working, that well, obviously, what what do you think as a model, what what do you suggest?
What need to have more a people professionals talking in the schools. We really have to start at the grade school level because the children are children become adult killers, some become child killers. But it's at that stage where a lot of children who become killers in the future are showing temperament, mental problems, problems with other problems with behavior, showing little respect for authority or even their parents. Uh. Some kids are bullies, for example, when they're young, and
that can play a factor both ways. It can cause that bully to ultimately take that to a greater level the older as a person gets or the person that being bullied can just have this rage building up inside him or her and then end up becoming killers like the Columbine youths who unloaded their rage there. So that would be one thing I would say is that we need to have more people trying to talk to youths in grade schools and high school as well and try
to see where they're coming from. See where I mean. I realized this would be a huge undertaking in society when you know schools are often hard pressed for funds and society itself hugely reluctant to give taxpayer dollars to
much of anything that if they can avoid it. But this is one where I think if we could give all children more counseling, more getting a better perspective on how they view life, how they view themselves, how they view committing crimes, harming animals, that sort of thing, anything that if we can have a better perspective on how they view the world around them, I think we could probably do a better job of preventing some of this behavior by trying to steer them in the right direction.
A lot of chillers walk with real killers were also crew to animals when they were young. But a lot of times this is parents may even know this, but they I dismissed it as you know, just to temper cantm with something, no big deal.
Well you know that aloneness, you know, because there has some controversy, whether you know, the lighting fires, wetting the beds, killing animals, having no remorse over animals, killing of them. You know, I grew up just like a regular guy, I really did. But there was guys. There was people around me. Not every person, but there were some certain people around me. That were very much cruel to animals and turned out fine, you know, and I happened to
no matter of factly. But I think the thing is is that what you're talking about is idealistic, not so realistic, because then there would be a danger in the identification of certain people at certain ages because of certain behavior as destined to do certain things. So then we have to read direct them whether they want to be redirected or not. Well, you know, so you would you would get the tailtale, you would get the tailtale psycho probably you would, you would, you know. I think there's a
combination of things here. There's a psychopath, everybody knows who that is, and then there's the the person with mental issues which could be psychotic. And then so there's this and then again certainly people with no history of mental illness, and certainly probably there's witnesses to say that they're certainly
not psychopathic, and yet they are killers as well. So we were dealing with a major undertaking, and then some sort of you know, analysts, you know, analysis of the information that you're getting and someone to then diagnose this as so, you know, in realistic terms, it's a huge undertaking that there's not very much money for and it's not as focused as maybe it might. You know, you might imagine, right.
Yes, well there's no getting around the fact that that would be a tremendous undertaking and not likely to occur, frankly.
But at the same time, we're going through this continual cycle of killers who you know, just about every killer that you hear about, ultimately people will say, well, you know, I saw this sign of aggression, or this person displayed, you know, some hatred towards this group, or you know, this person has been dealing with some issues after he was a victim of child abuse or child sexual abuse.
You know, there's just little signs and sometimes not little signs that are always there for killers that if we, you know, it had some sort of indication of this, we may have been able to offer them some sort of help, psychological or otherwise, that could have made a difference. So, you know, if we can't just continue to deal with these issues after the fact, because all that's doing.
Is just.
We're getting them off the street, which of course is a great thing, and we're trying them and convicting them, sending them to prison or executing So that's a good thing to deal with the after mass of homicides and other violent behavior, but it still isn't addressing the problem of trying to prevent it in the first place. One other thing in that respect is we may need to reassess the means by which violent offenders are released from prison.
I mean, there's been numerous instances where killers let out or other violent types were released from prison through the normal means pro but then they went on to kill someone else, or to kill someone for the first time using the violent tendencies and the violent environment they may have picked up in prison too, then follow through and
commit some of these painous crimes from the outside. So there's just a number of different angles with which we can look at this, but we certainly need to try to do more as a society to prevent these killing or at least put out a concerted effort to do so before they occur.
Well, that's you're dealing with parole boards, and parole boards can be lenient or or extremely hard on inmates that are are up for parole for early release. There are notorious stories of Arthur sharcross Edmund Kemper, all kinds of examples of people that were had murdered, were deemed cured or rehabilitated, or they were a few years later were
released and and then reoffended. Now, the thing that only can really happen is that that's what you know, pushes these these movements, TODs having mandatory minimums and people saying, well, no parole murder without the possibility of parole. In Canada, we have a system where there is no such thing as a there's no death penalty and no death penalty since the seventies, and we have no mandatory it's twenty
five years till to life. I mean, you could probably spend the rest of your life in prison, but most people are given parole in that twenty five years or less and then released out into the community, supposedly rehabilitated just during the years of incarceration. I guess so. But we don't have any murder without the possibility of parole. The thing is a par board can can get it wrong.
Well, they said again, and you know, but I understand on one hand that you know, if someone is seemed to be rehabilitated and they serve their time, you know they may deserve a second chance at trying to lead a law abiding life, but we just have too many pacidibus frankly speaking, that continue. I mean, it's like they were just on palls while they were in prison and then you know, picked right up where they left up. It's scary as I thought that is.
But I'm not surprised. I'm not surprised by that at all. And I've seen that trend here as well. People that were released involving a homicide are reoffending in short order. So I wouldn't I wouldn't doubt if I see them three times before the courts for somebody's death. So you know, I'm not surprised when then I'm a big supporter of you committed murder. You over this boundary that's set by society, and I can't feel sorry for I don't feel sorry
for killers. I just don't feel sorry for killers. Now. I'm interested in defenses and self defense and I'm open minded, but you know, I reserve my sympathy for victims, victims families, and I just don't have any sympathy for killers. So you know that extends to I don't care about the rehabilitation because I don't think society does anything for this.
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The rehabilitation of the victim or the victim's family are certainly not enough for the victim or the victim's family. Barely any consideration for the victim and the victims family in the court in the trial, in the appeal, in the in the parole, the anything. So that's where I am. I'm I'm more interested in. I hate to say it, but it truthfully, I've never been a victim. I'm I'm lucky,
but I can empathize with the victims. And the killers are way way down on my list of people to care for the rehabilitation.
But we're on the same page. They are more or less, Dan. I think that victims should certainly be front and center where concerns trying to help them, to deal with the victimization or there, you know, the family members of victims.
The book that I wrote, the best seller, The Sex Stay Murders with the serial killer couple Gerald and Savin Galago, right, the father of one of their victims, recently talked about how painful it is for him, even though it's been thirty years since his daughter was shot to death and sexually assaulted by Gerald Galago, that he you knows, just pay means that his daughter's gone. You know, he never got a chance to be a grandfather her children of or even she didn't even get to get married. She
her fiance was also gotten down by Galigo. So the point is the victims. The victimization never goes away. If you're the family member of the actual victim, it's you know, can still carry you as well for a lifetime. So it's the whole umbrella of victims that you have to deal with along with the primary victim, it's already gone, but it's all those that are left behind that has to deal with the mess, frankly of someone murdering loved
one like that. And so I definitely think that victims need to be giving more attention in helping them to cope and deal with the loss and trying to carry on and trying to make sense of it all, although sometimes you can't make sense of it, I mean the sense most of the times. In fact, killing people for various reasons that defy logic are common sense, but they still do it. Killers for their own purposes, even you know,
the most minor. I mean, some killers, for example, may kill someone that they robbed for a couple of dollars and it either wasn't enough money or they still felt they had to kill the person person whouldn't identify them later, And then of course they are identified later through either security cameras or CSI teams collecting evidence. They're going to get caught nine times out of ten, and then you know they're going to have to face the consequences of
their actions. But so often they never look ahead at the endgame for their murderous behavior. And that includes men, women and children. Children. That's one of the interesting aspects of the dynamics of murder that I studied. For juvenile killers, there's long been a debate in society as to whether they're culpable or not. Are they responsible for their actions or where their brain simply not developed enough to fully appreciate what they've done the life lives they may have taken.
And that is certainly a debatable question. But on the whole, I say that if you're old enough to do the crime, especially if you fifteen and up, then you have to
be held accountable. You just can't give teenagers juveniles are free pass under the belief that they simply hadn't developed the maturity level enough to fully be able to comprehend their actions, especially when you consider in modern times, juveniles are smart enough to be able to grasp the Internet and its complexities, and you know they are just in my opinion, I think juveniles are far more mature in the ways of the world than when I was a teenager,
and so it's difficult to say that this same juvenile that can handle these violent video games, can hand of the internet, can drive, can hand you are very able with their computers, but they still can't understand if they go out and kill someone that they're trying to rob or even for kicks, if they, you know, under the influence of drugs or something, and they decide to just go after someone just for the fun of it, then what's the you know, like.
Barry, what's what's the number? Though? What where do you get the number? Though there's fifteen fourteen? Is there's kids being on death row? And what Florida eleven? The kids going on twelve? Now, which how do you get your number? And then how do these other people get their number then? Because it's twelve fourteen in a couple of states? Right?
Well, actually, I believe that death row is off the table for juvenile to a certain age across the country. I believe it's the case now.
So well, okay, regardless, I mean, what what you call being put up to adult court? Why do you say fifteen? And for those people that are that are saying no, No, twelve and fourteen. How is their argument? What's what's your argument for fifteen?
That's a great question. Well, I think that the fifteen year old, I think they I simply believe that they're more cognizant of what they're doing. I think that's an age. In my opinion, I believe that's the age where they cross over enough and to adult thinking, especially where it relates to violent crimes. You take your father's gun and go out and shoot someone with it. I feel that at that age you it's you know, an age that
is questionable. I'm sure some people feel it should be like you said, maybe thirteen or fourteen, or seventeen or eighteen, But I just feel that there has to be some cut off on where the other and I'm willing to allow that someone that's thirteen or fourteen, twelve or ten may well not have the skilled, the motor skills, the mental development that can fully comprehend what they're doing if it involves murder. But at the same time, they still have to even if they're not in a dult court.
If some thirteen year old or twelve, as it has been the case and more often than not. Acting more often you might think it's been a victor the perpetrator of rape or some other crime of violence. I definitely think that they need to be held as long as they possibly can, even if it's in juvenile custody.
But you know, for.
A lot of the people regarding putting juveniles violent juveniles in adult facilities, I could understand the issues there, especially if they're put in the general population. I mean, that wouldn't be a very good thing for them. So I would say they just may have to if they're tried in a dog court and they're still minors, they'll just have to have them isolated from the general population. But mhm,
that still would be better than putting them. And if they're they've shown it prepends for enough violent behavior, we still wouldn't want them put in a juvenile facility where they did might you know, be in position to victimize other juveniles. So it's it's really a tight rope there, Dan to tell you the truth regarding.
Well again again, most people, you know, I mean it's you're you're worrying about the one juvenile that goes in with the other juvenile, uh, criminal killer. I mean, I'm not talking. I'm not never talking about minor crime. I'm talking about major crime. Rapistophiles and killers. Hey, I mean, no one's no one's no one's caring, No one's caring what any of those people do to each other. That's the whole thing. That's that's what we're based with society wise,
people used to go to public hangings. Now they do not shed a tear when somebody complains about the food or the conditions in prison. That's they complaining that they have to pay for.
Right, That's true.
Yes, you know, the thing is is that The thing is is that what I you know, what I have a problem with is is sort of looking at the bigger picture when you're looking at murder some of the
the I'm interested in some of the trends. And I want to ask you this one question too, because you've in your analysis what is it about you know, they're notorious wicked women killers, So they have the capacity, whether people believe it or not, to kill like men never even thought of, and or to kill at the same level as men, but or to kill, to be able to have the capacity propensity to kill. But what is it about men in your in your analysis to everything
you've looked at. Why is the murder the domain of man?
Well, that is also a good question. Certainly men are by far more likely to kill. They dominate the prisons as far as killers are concerned. I think, uh men represent about uh more than ninety percent of the murderers
in prisons today. Uh, but they're I would say, uh that, Uh it's in the nature of men, I think more than women to kill because they generally tend to be the aggressors in their upbringing from you know, the earlier in life till they're older, and women are more passive in their rows.
Uh.
Social sex rose in society, so men just uh mm, they tend to play out on those aggressions more than women. Women are females are the traditionally caregivers, and they just are the softer side if you wis holed up in general, not in specific. There's certainly plenty of women who and teenage girls who have done some you know, atrocious crimes violence and murder. But generally speaking, men are still males,
men and boys sometimes as well. They just grow up with a more machismo type character and this can evolve into behavior that becomes violent and they're you know, stronger as well physically by and large. So for example, if you've got a domestic violence situation, the males is more likely to be the perpetrator if it comes down to murder, even though the female may have still been equally a priory to the violence in the relationship, but she still
doesn't get the the male. She's more likely to get the lion's share of the violence. But there are exceptions. For example, the Jody Arias case, she says that they had domestic violence in their relationship, and she claims she was afraid for a life and that sort of thing. Whether that is true or not, I'm not sure. I mean, there's been no corroboration for what she said, but the fact is she was definitely the aggressed her in this instance. I mean, she stabbed Fello over twenty times, shot him
in the head. She was clearly the one that was in the driver's seat, so to speak, as far as a brutal murder. So women can be capable of really heinous crimes, but men just they're almost bred, if you will, to be the more aggressive and violent type of person in society. And that's been borne out by the fact that men are far more likely to kill, whether it's domestic violins, terrorism, mass murders, school shootings. I mean, just bye, every type of crime, gang murders, every type that you
can think of. You think of male kill because they are the ones that rules the roost.
Is it an aggressive society that nurtures aggression and and or? But but is it? Is it a man's aggressive nature? Is it our primary nature?
Is man's aggressive nature? But it's also a society that tends to uh it's sort of uh years allows males from tom be involved in this type of behavior. It's uh, you know, uh rough and tumble football in the backyard wrestling, Uh, you know, it's just, uh, we have a society that almost rewards men males in a way in terms of being successful in their various pursuits that involves aggression when they're young, and so this can escalate to homicidal behavior
at some point, whether they're young or older. And you know, women females growing up, just generally speaking, art brought up the same way with the same perspective on how they should behave and how they shouldn't behave.
And so.
That's why men males tend to be more prevalent in violent behavior and also the element of sexual I mean, if substance abuse cannot be understated, se substance abuse is perhaps the strongest factor, I would say, and homicidal behavior for males and females in just about all instances. The person that's under the influence each other of alcoholic drugs and often both.
Uh So.
That's a key element. But males still have the it's just it. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's genetic per se, but their mental and physical makeup.
I believe over the years, what they're taught, their environment, their family members that may also have their male family members that may be involved in criminal activity, or they could still be pushed into it by even their female family members that can go to their to male family members to help them deal with problems with their own and expect you know it as part of the expect bro expectations that can have men or boys are resorting
to violence to achieve their means, and sometimes that goes into homicidal behavior.
But did drugs cause the homicidal behavior or did the drugs enable that person to.
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Fdic to enact that homicide that they had to do that.
The drugs were just the uh put them over the top. They certainly had the homicidal tendencies to do it, to perpetrate the crime, but they may have needed something to give them that extra edge, uh, an excuse if you will, to follow through on what they wanted to do. So it certainly is not something that one can use as an excuse when they decided to murder someone. Uh, that's just something that gives them the impetus to move forward.
It sort of loosens to inhibitions, all right. Now, like to talked a little bit about my latest project that I think listeners would find fascinating, Murder at the Pencil Factory. No, we're running out of time here, but if I could just get in the little Okay. Murder at the Pencil Factory the killing of Mary Fagan one hundred years later is my latest historical true Crimes short. It's really a very compelling case that occurred one hundred years ago April
twenty sixth, nineteen thirteen. As a thirteen year old, Mary Fagan was murdered at the National Pencil Factory in Atlanta, Georgia, where she worked putting metal strips around the pencil. She was sexually assaulted, battered strango. She was found in the basement of the pencil factory. A Jewish American factory superintendent named Leo Frank was arrested, tried, and eventually sentenced to
death for her murder. In a controversy of trial in which the prosecution's chief witness was an African American janitor at the pencil factory named Jim Conley, who claimed that he helped Leo Frank move the body after the fact to the basement, and so based largely on his testimony, Leo Frank was convicted, and though he was sentenced to death, the governor at the time decided to commute his sentence
to life. But they're in the deep South with some problems between the various elements who lived there, Jewish Whites, African Americans. The powers that be in the community decided that the old Frank was guilty and he should be executed, so he was broken out of prison by a lynch mob and lynch Woll nearly one hundred years ago, a
couple of years after the actual murder Mary Faden. But this case has generated a lot of controversy ever since then because Jewish Americans feel that the old Frank was railroaded, others feel that the janitor may have been the real killer, and others feel yet someone else may have been responsible
for the young girl's death. But I think that your listeners will find this story very interesting because it has a lot of elements in fact that reads like a legal thriller today, only it happened a century ago, and there's a lot of different angles to the story for people to consider as they try to come to terms with it in their own thoughts about who may have been responsible for Mary Fagan's death at age.
Thirteen interesting and you have tell us about that. Is the pick Axe Murder is the true crime short story?
Yes, it is. The pick Axe Killers is the story of Karla Fa Tucker and Daniel Garrett which I mentioned earlier murdered a couple in Houston, Texas nineteen eighty three and used the pick axe to just beat them to depth and just a very violent crime. Karla Kay Tucker, which who was the one that was responsible for most of the pick axe hits. She ultimately was sentenced to depth. Her boyfriend at the time died in prison before he
got the chance to be executed. Carla was executed eventually, but not before she turned her life around and gained a lot of sympathy from high places like the Pope and other people that had power around the world, including actors,
but her faith was stilled. But I think those reading this story will also find it a compelling historical true crime tell dealing with a vicious murder and the death penalty and the consequences of murder and just will allow you to take a look at the society we live in and you know, wonder how what we can do to try to change some things. But I found it ironic with the Jody Areas case that she is an example of how we seem to be in a cycle of these types of vicious crimes by females and some
instances males too. But I thought about the Karla fey Tucker tell every since Jody Arias has been in the news, because some people tend to think that this type of crime, this is new in our society, and I can tell you that it's gone on, you know, the centuries now, and the Bell Gunnis at the beginning of the nineteenth century was a cold blooded female serial killer. So what goes around truly does come around when it comes to crime.
And I'm sure that in the future we'll hear about other Jody arius Is that have done terrible things, murdered someone for reasons that really there's no good reason, even if you try to convince others that you kill the this reason that unless you're defending yourself from being killed, h h, there's noisus for killing someone else. So in my book the Dynamics of Murder, killed or be killed,
that's often the essence of homicide. You're going to be a victim, victim or an offender, and hopefully you know, if you're fortunate enough, you can avoid both because obviously there's not an outcome either way.
Yes, absolutely, Before we go, I just wanted to say too that you have case studies, and we didn't get into exactly who any of these people are, and but just briefly you could tell us, I'm going to name some people that are in the case studies, and then you can just tell us why you chose these people, and just just briefly tell us why you did that. Of the person that SA say hell because of me?
Yes, because then me, uh, yes, I chose that particular case because she murdered her boyfriend who is an ex NFL star. Say, hey, it was the murder suicide. Actually she okay, yes, she felt that. Uh. Steve McNair. For listeners, I'm sure maybe familiar with him. He was m played with a couple of teams Baltimore. I believe he was an NFL quarterback and this happened in two thousand and
nine in Nashville. Then I chose that particular case because it was somewhat unusual in the sense that most times it's a male male female suicide, the male let's see killer, female victim. But in this case, she say he she was jealous of the fact that he was Steve was
seeing someone else. He was married at the time by the way when he was seeing her, but he still had another girlfriend apparently, and say he because Zimmy was upset at the prospect of losing him, so she decided if we couldn't be her, it would be no one. So she shot him to death while he was asleep and then shot herself. A real tragedy, but it illustrates, nevertheless, how women, if firearms are part of the equation, they can be every bit as dangerous and deadly as men.
And that showed was proved positive right there. And because she committed suicide, she couldn't be tried even for her crying.
Sure, why did you include Charles Stewart and who is he? Briefly Charles Stewart.
I concluded him because he murdered his wife in nineteen eighty nine in Boston. But the interesting thing with this case is after he shot his wife to death hoping to cash in on insurance policy and he had a girlfriend as well, he used the race card that you know, no one ever likes to imagine that happening, but he said that initially that an African American had shot his
wife and wounded him. He had a superficial and so at the time the authorities nationwide were questioning African American males, especially in the Boston area, but even in other states too, As you know, just built to a favorite pitch in the media. But then his case began to fall apart in the authorities realized that his womb was self inflicted, that he had murdered his wife hoping that he could get her out of the picture and collect some insurance
induce his girlfriend. He ultimately killed himself before he could be arrested and charged. So, you know, I thought that was a good case study to examine because of the implications of using race as a means of trying to throw off the authorities when the real killer. I mean, that's the powerful too that can be used by someone who is trying to avoid taking responsibility and knowing that race relations then and even now aren't what they should be.
So he was exploiting that for his own means. But it didn't urt.
Sure. Now you've also included h You've also included Sarah Marie Johnson and and byron Yui Sugi Sugi. We won't go into that, and also Gerald and Charlene Galago, which is the subject of your sex Slave murders. We won't go into all of that, but you've included these very unique killers as well as case studies in the Dynamics of Murder, and you've you've got everything from trends and homicide, the dynamics of murder itself, the circumstances, the characterizing the
murder offender. You've studied the victims. You've studied suicide in inter relationships, kids killing parents, parents killing kids, females killing their spouses, and vice versa. You've really done a great job in covering all of the aspects of murder, the motives, the breakdown of the types of killers and motivations, and like you say, a lot of the factors that go into sort of creating the confluence of events that leads to murder. So you've done a great job in capturing
this in the Dynamics of Murder. And I want to thank you very much for this interview.
And that was certainly my intention to give readers a broad perspective on the crime of murder and the various with which it occurred and the victims, offenders, society itself,
the law enforcement. There's just a lot of size to every murder that you know, I felt needed to be explored so people could appreciate the various facets of murder beyond just an individual victim or offender, as is often the case, you know, when we hear about our daily murders around the country, which are you know, very sad to hear, But we also need to have some contexts on these christs, who's committing them, why, and you know what patterns, what we can learn from them, how we
can try to prevent or these This worst type of crime that can occur in society.
Absolutely and the one that captures our imagination as well. That's why we read true crime books, and that's why we read these type of books that are one step beyond true crime and trying to understand murder and the
murderer and trying to avoid victimization. But I think we just all are fascinated by murderers themselves and the crimes and the effect that it has on again societies, cities, communities, families, and just everyone, because we're still talking about crimes one hundred years later, like you're murder in the pencil factory.
So right, I would like to invite listeners through crime fans, to not only read these projects of mine, but also some of my other bestsellers, the sex slave Murders, serial Killer Couples, and Masters of True Crimes and all of those. You're an e book, print and audio. Yeah, I was going to talk about your website. Also follow me on Twitter and Facebook, Wikipedia, good Reads, pen Interests, YouTube, and www. Dot Rberryflowers dot com.
You got it going on. You're a big, one big promotional machine there, Barry. I want to thank you very much for this interview, and I'm sure to hear from you again because you're just one prolific guy and you're just uh, I don't know how you do it, but you're you're down there in your basement or whatever, and just.
Yes, I'm social life, h dan. I just try to uh uh use my skills to bring to the attention of the public some of these crimes and why they're happening, and just keeping people informed and knowledgeable. I think that true crime writers, you know, have a place in society. We're sort of obligated to absolutely show people more than what you just hear on the eleven o'clock news. Yes, thanks for violence.
Yes, to tell the stories and then the stories behind the stories as well. Because that's all people really do is get a little sliver of information out of context, like you say, And so this is the way to do. This is for the dedicated true crime authors like yourself that are out there, and for the dedicated true crime fans. There's this give and take of information and then a welcome audience that's ready to hear about it and ready
to read about it. So I applaud you for your work, Berry, and I want to thank you very much and have yourself a good evening, and we will probably talk to you real soon.
Look forward to that, Dan, and thanks for having me.
Thank you very much, very goodnight, have
A good evening you too,