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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The night Stalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking
and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening, The creep among Us, The true story of the next chapter, investigations and research which entails some of what we know little more than five months into solving who the East Area rapist, Original night Stalker, Golden State Killer is. The story continues after the arrest of Joseph James DiAngelo on
April twenty four, twenty eighteen, in Sacramento, California. The trial, estimated to begin in about four years, will be unprecedented as several jurisdictions will try DiAngelo and Sacramento at the same time. There have been multitudes of articles and information that have come out in the five months since the arrest. Di Angelo was found from DNA left at the scenes of as many rapes and then murders over a ten
year span nineteen seventy six to nineteen eighty six. A profile downloaded to ged match, as well as experts who trace his profile to his family tree, were instrumental in the final arrest of a man whose DNA matched the suspect with one hundred percent match. An pen is just one of hundreds of people involved in the story who needed to investigate the details. He truly was the creep
hiding among us, the creepiest thing of all. He was living among his victims in his favorite attack areas in the East Sacramento area of Citrus Heights for most of the last forty two years. We shall see how the investigators connect all of the dots. Miss Penn was compelled to follow this story through to justice. Her investigations into the details of who this perpetrator is and how we missed him in nineteen seventy five nineteen seventy nine are
something she had to ask questions about. Larry Crompton has written his thoughts after the arrest, and they are included. Mark Smith discusses the ballistics involved in some of the murders. Many ran the idea that the criminal was in law enforcement throughout the many years mister Smith discusses how we could have and should have determined that this man was a cop.
The book they were featuring this evening is the Creep among Us Golden State Killer After the Arrest, with my special guest journalist and author and Penn. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. And Penn, thank.
You so much. Dale appreciate it.
Thank you so much for providing us with the most important and up to date information regarding this case that will and still continues to captivate many and many many people in the true crime world and outside that world, and we haven't seen anything yet when all of that media comes to rest on this story when he does go eventually to trial, finally to trial. Congratulations on this book. Let's start with, as you do in this book, what
you found out about his connection. And we talked about Visalia Ransacker, so people that know this case know that that connection was made quite a while ago with DNA, many years ago. But you've opened the book talking about his connection to Visalia as a police officer at Exeter Police Department. So tell us as you do about what you found out about his assignment with the police and
how that contributed to the Visilia ransacking. Tell us what you write in the beginning of the book about the burglaries and the composite drawing and everything that they knew at that time from those ransacking crimes.
Well, of course there's a lot of detail in every aspect of each series that Vysealia Roundsacker is where they believe he began. But as research is done into the crimes, I'm sure they'll find that there were probably something going on prior to that. When he went to Exeter as a police officer, he worked there for about three years and he was about a ten minute drive away from Ilia, so when they hired him on, he lived there with his wife and ended up working in that whole area,
you know, a lot of rural area. And what I've found out was that what he knows and what he you know, educated himself to know, was the process and the procedures of the police. And of course when he was an Exeter he was in part of the burglary task force and he possibly investigated some of his own crimes. As of Ylia Runsacker. They didn't I had to find
out for myself. You know, there's a lot of information, a lot of interviews, a lot of people that people talked to, and I had to find out for myself. I really wanted to know how this guy was missed or if there was any red flags or anything going on in Exeter, And a lot of people have asked that question, and a lot of information is out there to answer that. But for me, I had to talked to Exeter myself, and I did speak to one of
his coworkers, a really nice guy, Farah Ward. He basically just said that he knew how long it would take for investigators to show up if he was involved in a burglary. He knew it would take anywhere from fifteen minutes to thirty minutes to get somebody out to the scene, so he had plenty of time to get away. Always they had to either catch him in the act or
be nearby or whatever. But it was such a rural place that it was pretty easy for if by Sally Ransacker to get away with all the crimes, and they never suspected Joseph DiAngelo at all.
Now you also, and I'm sorry if I jump ahead for those people that know this case much better, like yourself. But since this time, there has been some developments. And while we're in talking about this, let's talk about the August two thousand and eighteen first degree murder charges. At least, let's talk about Claude Snelling and the murder of nineteen seventy five and the new development based after this arrest.
Well, of course, you know, it was interesting he was charged first in the Maggiori murders and then also the Smith murders and Ventura. But it took a while as each murder charge was added to you know, all the different other victims like the Domingos and Offerman, Manning and so on, all the different victims that they charged him with, all the murders, the very last one that they came to was charging him with the Cloud Snelling murder in
Visalia from nineteen seventy five. And I think probably besides the fact that they of course have to make sure that they're going to file charges and they have a really good case, they didn't have any DNA in that case, and that was probably why thirteenth murder added to the charges.
Right, Can you tell us about the particulars of the Snelling murder in nineteen seventy.
Five, Well, you know, most people who do follow the case know that the perpetrator, known as by Jelly Ransacker, he was believed to be the same guy who went into the Snelling home tried to drag Beth Snelling Elizabeth Snelling out of the home. She was sixteen at the time if I'm correct, and I thought maybe sixteen seventeen. She you know, was woke up to the guy over her and he tried to drag her out of the house. Her father heard the commotion and came to try to
stop him and was shot twice in the doorway. And the perpetrator kicked death in the face and left and Cloud Snelling passed away on the way to the hospital.
Yeah, incredible.
Yeah, So Vycelia set up a sting to try to catch the guy and did not, unfortunately catch him, but they did get to see his face enough to do a composite And that.
Was in December when he shot at an Officer McGowan. Tell us a little bit about this. The fortunate luck of officer McGowan.
Well, I mean he did, you know, he did run into him, and he did run into him with a mask on. They set up a sting and he was there. He was and officer McGowan went out there and confronted him, and by Cella Ransucker pretended like he was going to possibly surrender, pulled his mask off of his head and said something sort of distracting in a high pitched voice, and ended up shooting at McCallan. He had a gun,
so he hit the flashlight. Flashlight shattered and glass went into the officer's eyes and he ended up getting.
Away as a result. Though they thought they might have a pretty good he said, he got a pretty good look at him. So the composite and now what we know in retrospect, how good was that composite.
Well, my opinion, and I probably said that in my book, is that that was probably one of the best compositive course that they had done. And it really did look the most like him, and it should have so. Unfortunately, when after these murders, D'Angelo left, he applied for a position in Auburn, and I asked the officer down there in Exeter whether or not he seemed to be in a hurry, and he said no, he just applied for the transfer, and when it came through, he gave us
two weeks notice and he was on his way. But there was no red flag, no reason for them to think anything of it. But of course after the Snelling murder, there wasn't much more activity from the Viselliu Mansacker.
You say that six months later was the first reported rape in Sacramento, June eighteenth, nineteen seventy six.
Right, that's correct.
He tell us a little bit about as you do. Tell us a little bit about Chief Deputy Sheriff Fred Reese. He's got very very interesting statements for him to be attributed to in this.
Are you talking about the there's a lot of detectives involved, So are you talking about the one who made comments about his frenzy?
Yes, his psychological assessment there back in the day, Yeah, and.
I think it probably, like I said in my book, enraged the Angelo And yeah, yeah, I didn't agree with what he had said at the time. But if you think about it, back in the seventies, there wasn't a lot of psychological profiling. There wasn't a lot of information about what drove a serial killer. There wasn't even the term serial killer until I think it was in the seventies.
They were called mass murderers at the time. Serial killer was a new term coined in the seventies, so he didn't know much about what he was trying to say.
Well, what he did say is that he said, this individual is probably in a homosexual panic caused by his inadequate endowment.
Right, So it's an assumption on the detective's part, I think.
But yeah, nobody would maybe agree with releasing a statement quite like that unless they could say there was some going to be good effect from it, a good result or reaction from it. Right.
No, And back in the day, like I said, back in the seventies, it was a completely different animal when it came to what they did and how they did it, and who said what to the media, and whether they even let us know anything was going on for a while. So there's a whole different thing than today.
M Now you've just mentioned in this too, is that we went fast forward to twenty seventeen, twenty fifteen. FBI criminologist or criminalist Paul Holes he never believed there was a connection between Visalia and Sacramento, but Richard Shelby and Hunting, a psychopath, asserted that it was very adamant about that, wasn't he right?
And I think what you know, everybody had their own opinion. A lot of people didn't see a connection at all between the two. The comments that mister Holes had said over time that he didn't really see the connection. You know, everybody had their opinion about it. Maybe people were hopeful it wasn't the same guy, because it's horrendous that he got away with over one hundred and twenty five break ins and prowlings and all the stuff that he did
prior to even showing up in Sacramento. But yeah, now, of course mister Hole says that he is one hundred percent sure that it was him, and that's you know, that's everybody had an opinion. I always thought that it made sense that it was him practicing to become, you know, better at what he was doing. He is definitely a burglar.
Leslie di Ambrosia said that people who attacking homes are typically really good cat burglars, and she was absolutely right, And that's what he did, and so he practiced and he got very good at it, and he continued on.
So you talk about his background, starting that he he was a Navy officer, and we're talking about Vietnam time. So tell me, as you do, who was writing in your book where he went to school and for what what was he studying?
Interestingly, well, of course criminology. He went to Sierra College, which was not far from Auburn. Actually he knew all the rural roads back that direction. The college he ended up in was second State College, and got a bachelor's degree in criminal justice. So he was training himself to see what he became, which was a criminal.
Sure you say that too, Het. He met a woman as well, and his wife, and she became his wife. What was she studying to become? And became a lawyer.
She became a lawyer in family law and successfully practiced that until right after the arrests. Her office was closed about four days after the arrest. Maybe his was a week May fourth.
Right, You write that they lived in Exeter from seventy three to seventy six, but they didn't start a family till nineteen eighty.
One.
In nineteen eighty one, okay, pardon me, now, you also in this book, you're also looking at the other books that you have written Murder on his Mind about the Easter AIA rapist, and your journey and your investigation and your personal connection to your uncle and your aunt Lyman Smith and Charlene Smith, and you are through this throughout this book, looking and commenting at what you predicted early on in terms of who he might be and where he might be, and other things that you again analyze
against what the the con of the the knowledge at the time was, and then you compare what your predictions were, and then your comments now tell us about some of those, including this Auburn Fulsome Road or Fulsome Road, and Citrus Heights, and the proximity to as we alluded to in the introduction, a lot of the attacks.
Well, what's interesting, I never thought that he actually lived in his attack. I thought he lived outside that area. Originally, I had started to think maybe he came from my neck of the woods, which was south Sacramento, and I believe that was the city, not the county. But as time went on and I got more involved in investigating it, and I never stopped doing that. As I put out the second edition, I was still investigating and I still
actually am collecting information. But what happened is I just didn't think he was in the area. I thought he you know, Paul Hols and I talked about at one point that he was dropping off the highway and He's told that in many, many interviews that he dropped off Highway eighty and so I started thinking, well, you know, probably, I mean, the frontage roads were a great way to get around back then. There's a lot of rural frontage roads, and it was obvious that DeAngelo knew his way around
intimately everywhere. And he had been at Sech State and not far from there. You know the Fulsome areas there, there's it's really very small area geographically if you travel it by road by car. And what he did was he would take the Auburn Fulsome road. This is my belief. I don't have any one hundred percent proof, of course,
but this is this makes the most sense. When you're in Auburn and he worked there and he lived there, you travel the Auburn Fulsom Road, you can go through the rural areas to the attacks easily in twenty minutes, and then you can return back to Auburn and go to bed and get up the next day and go to work on time. And that's what I believe he did. It makes the most sense. And that's what I talk about in my book about the chapter on Auburn, because what he did and what he managed to get away with.
I also say this in my book is that it was absolutely the perfect scenario for him to do what he did, to travel that road at night. Let's say he worked at eleven o'clock at night, got off, drove down the Auburn Fulsom for twenty minutes, did his attacking, his recon did whatever he needed to do, and he could go home and get to work the next day on time. So it was absolutely perfect to nobody was looking for him there because he was in Plaster County.
Plaster County is a twenty minute drive to Sacramento County.
You also win this in this book. You spoke to Nick Willock, former police chief of Auburn, and he had worked under D'Angelo for about four months.
No Angelo worked for him about four months.
Okay, pardon me now, tell us a little bit about his observations and his thoughts about D'Angelo, his experience with them.
Well, I had to also chat with him because I wanted to. I just really wanted to know and to try to feel settled with how they missed him in nineteen seventy nine and how they didn't see anything weird about the guy. And you know, just hear for myself what they had to say, and mister Willick was kind enough to chat with me. And when I walked away from both of these discussions about the guy and people who knew him then and worked with him, then I really was struck with the fact that it really was
nothing that they saw. There was no red flag, There was no reason for them to have figured out that this was him. And I felt a lot more at peace with that after I spoke to them, and they were very kind to talk to me, because I really couldn't fathom at first. I was like, why, you know, why didn't why weren't there red flag? Why didn't they see it? Well, I can understand now from talking to them that there was nothing he did. There was nothing very weird. There was no he wasn't late to work,
He showed up on time. He you know, they said. Mister Willick said he wasn't a great cop. He got too close to people, physically close. He made people uncomfortable. There were complaints filed against him, but nobody really thought anything more than that.
You talk about the red flag, but what we're talking about is that he was fired for shoplifting. And you said that was given, given, given, given, the particulars. Tell us the particulars so that we know what you were referring to.
Well, the thing that I still have tried to reconcile, and I talk about it a little bit in the book too, is that even if they missed him in Exeter and they missed him in Auburn, and I understand now why they did.
That.
When he was arrested in nineteen seventy nine, he was right in the middle of the attack zone. He was off green Back in Citrus Heights, in a store right in Sacramento County, and he was arrested for shoplifting in their county. And so what I was concerned about, of course, is why weren't there red flags then? Because he fit the descriptions and he fit the profile. And how did they miss him there? Because that's where I traced it back to Sacramento, was like, who missed it? You know?
Who did this? Who missed this guy? Because in seventy nine, if he was caught, of course, all the other awful things he did would not have happened. So they prosecuted him in Sacramento County or shoplifting. He lost his job there were articles in the newspaper about it, and I
just couldn't figure out why they didn't put that together. So, you know, he did move on, and he did leave Auburn, bought a house in Citrus Heights in nineteen eighty maybe the end of seventy nine eighty, and then he sat there in that neck of the woods, in the attack zone for the next thirty somewive years.
So you talk about Sacramento attacks too, which I think the audience will find fascinating, is these attacks on the anniversary of his wedding to subsequent years, right, very interesting.
We actually that'd be tomorrow would be his wedding anniversary, the tenth of November, and yesterday was his birthday. Yeah, he seemed to be very, very driven by events and by dates that seemed very important to him, and so that's what he did on his anniversary. For a couple of years in a row, he attacked and raped other women.
Tell us how you found or the information you found regarding again, it's not definitive or make a conclusion, but just interesting in the living arrangements of the between a man and wife.
Noticed well, I'm sure in other interviews mister Willick had mentioned that he had been invited over to the Angelo's home to see the home that they had purchased there and said, well, the Angelo said, well, this is my wife's room and this is my room. And he thought that was rather odd that they had separate rooms, and so he really could come and go at night, probably without much notice because they had separate rooms. So, and that's been stated in many interviews. I'm sure.
You say that there are some missteps by police, and not to beat up on police, but you think there was some missteps by police by not revealing information or what is it exactly that you think there was a major misstep between the media and the sheriff's department at some point.
Right, Well, hindsight is of course, and so what you want to do in Sacramento on what they did when he first began attacking, is they didn't tell the public. And of course at this day and age, probably that wouldn't have been the case. But I understand back then what they were trying to do was not let him know that they were after him, or not let him know, you know, what they were doing if they were thinking he might be a cop, they didn't want to, you know,
key him in on that. So there are a lot of things that factor into why they didn't tell for five six months, and I get that, but also the other flip, they had to decide what are they going to do. They're going to tell us are they not going to tell us? And if they had told the public, maybe we could have helped him, help them catch him, maybe keep our eye open, you know, because when a criminal starts attacking and raping like he did, they make the most mistakes when they are at the beginning of
what they're doing. And so if the public had known, and the people in Citrus Heights and and Rancho Cordova and all the attack areas certainly knew what was going on, and they were talking to one another, and then finally when they had the town hall meeting, they were like, what's going on? Why are we not hearing about this? So, you know, they the people in the attack zones knew and were speaking to one another, but the media didn't tell anybody in Sacramento until it's been quite some time.
So that would have been nice probably to be able to you know, like I said, hindsight is twenty twenty. It would have been nice to know if we could have helped by keeping our eye open and maybe reporting what was going on, because a lot of people didn't report what was going on.
You also talk about again, and this is a bigger issue, and it's an issue of the time, and we have evolved as a society in this area. But you talk about that it was a case of rape and it was a certain attitude towards rape versus other serious crime, especially for police forces that seemed to be swamped with crime.
And then you talk about the the killer duo, serial killer duo of the Galagos maybe mispronounced their name, Charlene and Gerald ex police officer, tell us about how that attitudal difference played into this as well as as these serial killers working in the same area amazingly, and that for the police.
Okay, Galagos was never a police officer, I think I heard you say that. But his father was a murderer and was sentenced to death. He was in the penitentiary, so anyway, he ended up being a rapist and murderer. Gallegos came to be noticed in Sacramento area in nineteen seventy eight, and of course, as we know, the Easter, a rapist was attacking still in nineteen seventy eight in Sacramento and around you know, around other areas as well,
Stockton and Podesto and many other places. So they were essentially What was interesting, and I talked about it in my book too and in depth, is that di'angelo was up in the Auburn Police department. He was running over to the east part of Sacramento and committing crimes. And here comes Gerald Galagos and Charlene in nineteen seventy eight, and they're running up. They're picking people up at the
malls near Highway eighty. They're picking women up, you know, send Charlene in to get women to come out to the car and kidnapping them, raping them. And then what they would do is take them to places right off Highway eighty to like off Bass Like Road and other places to walk them out to a remote area and then kill them. And so they were doing this at the same time that the East area rapist was running
them up. And I really do think that one of the reasons that the Easterry rapists sort of wanted to lay low in seventy eight, not only because there were composites that came out from the murders in Sacramento. Maggiori murders. I think that it's conceivable to think that the Galagos were aware of the Easterry rapists, and the Easterry rapists was aware of them the serial killers. So I think
that it's it's possible. And this is what I talk about, that the easter A rapists really didn't want to be running around in the same areas as a serial killer at the same time, and so he kind of went in opposite directions and then moved on. So I really think that there was an awareness that it was getting kind of hot. I mean, what's his name, Biagi, He was investigating the Gallegos at the time. M hm, I'm
trying to remember lieutenant's name. But anyway, there's a lot of investigators involved in all these cases, as you can imagine.
But yeah, sorry, go ahead.
I was just gonna say, Highway eighty, where the murderers and the Syria serial killer at the time was running up and down, was literally, i would say, probably geographically about fifteen minute drive from where they were dumping bodies, so it was close.
In all of this, dedicated people arrive are on the scene and continue with this all the way to twenty
eighteen and then beyond. So you talk of some bright spots in this and police officers dedicated Detective Carol Daily, and you talk about Richard Shelby, and you talk about Larry Crompton and all of their role in making the case that there was with Richard Shelby and Prompton, that there was a connection, and that they're always and Detective Daily working much better these victims to be able to get their testimony and be able to get there give
them some reassurance that the police were doing everything they could try to find this very very violent rapist. And right, so let's talk about what you learned from them. Larry Crompton writes a chapter in your book. So what does Larry Crompton say about this?
Well, I think the general gist of what he has to say after the arrest, of course, is great relief. But what he wants to say, and I'll let him tell it if people want to read it. He basically the bottom line for him was that we need to
learn from the past. You don't need to carry it forward, of course, but we need to learn from the past as far as working together also including the public's you know help in, you know, sort of investigating and trying to help solve crimes because we can't help, and you know, we really do talk to one another, especially these days
with the virtual reality. I mean, the people who are investigating these crimes and talking to one another, they're amateur sluice, but I'll tell you what, they are really good at what they do. So it's basically he just wanted to weigh in on the fact that he was grateful that it had solved, that we should learn from the past and how we should work together. That's pretty much suggested it that there's more there. So yeah, I was real
happy to have him do that. I would love to hear more about how it was to investigate the crimes back when he was doing that, and so I'm trying to encourage him he's maybe going to make some changes to his book.
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Condition of Mind every details.
Yeah, you can talk about some of the things though that he talks about being contacted by Paul Holes and his involvement in this. So as you do write in there, they tell us a little bit about that contact and his involvement, what he does and what he presents to Paul Holes.
Right, well, let me back up just for one second to give credit to also to Carol Daily and to Richard Shelby because and Larry because and there's so many people I can't even you know, there's such a long list. That these people who originally investigated these crimes were so dedicated and so involved and so you know, invested in trying to solve these crimes. And I say in my book, I totally appreciate that in them. So if it wasn't for them, this wouldn't have happened.
It.
You know, they kept it in the forefront as much as they could. They talked about it forever. So I appreciate that. So I need to say that. But what Larry did with Contracosta County as he retired. Eventually he had a conversation with Paul Holes about what the boxes were that said, ear on them, because there were quite a few, from my understanding, in Contra Costa County, and so he got pall Holes up to speed on what
the cases were about. At the time. I think Paul was a criminalist, and he told him that he Larry Compton said to Paul that he thought that the southern California murders were connected to the East Ay rapists, that it was the same guy, and he encouraged Paul to connect with Orange County. I believe it was in order to test the DNA, to download the profile, whatever process they went through to see if this guy was the same guy. And of course it came back that it was.
And it took probably seven want or so back then, because DNA testing took a long time back then, and that was probably God, I don't remember which year exactly, it was around ninety nine, two thousand somewhere around there.
What I thought most interesting, What I thought most interesting is that the sample, I mean for you and I want to get this reaction. What was it like knowing that the sample and they said was an untouched sample from Charlene Smith, the family member was used for the DNA sampling.
Yeah, that was interesting. I was really glad that they had preserved the sample. It was doctor sat I believe is his name, who preserved that sample that they used to get a profile from to download it to ged match. They needed to consert it is what they needed to do in order to submit it to ged match. That was good to know. Yeah, so I'm not sorry.
About you talk about Barbara ray Venter and her entering into this investigation assisting Paul Holes. Who was she and what was her role here?
She basically is a geneticist. She was helping people over time find their adoptive families and that kind of thing, and she was contacted by Paul Holes to find out if she would help in trying to track this guy down. She studied his profiles, she studied all the information that you know, she could find about him, and agreed to go ahead and try to help find his relatives. They had to go back to his great great great grandfather
in time to try to trace the tree down. I think they started with twenty five trees and had to slowly work down generation after generation. So yes, but she's been wonderful in this case, and for a while she didn't want to be identified, and I don't blame her, but she did definitely break the case.
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before you do anything else. Click on the microphone at the top of the homepage. And type in true Murder that's shipstation dot com Enter true Murder, ship station, make ship happen. Now we talked about the role of Barbara Ventor working in conjunction with Paul Holes. What's interesting is your assessment and your take on the law enforcement and with the assistant of the FBI near the end or in the last couple of years, you talk about orchestration.
Tell us what you what you write about in that orchestration by law enforcement, right.
And what I should say is basically what it looked like from probably a lot of people's perspectives really is that they had the DNA, they had the profile all this time since about two thousand and eighteen years and as technology developed and things changed and things got better and easier to do, a lot of conversation was had about, you know, taking the profile and downloading it to try to see if there's a match, because there was no match on the codis or other places where law enforcement
has access to and so for a long time, you know a lot of us were hearing that they were going to try to see if it was if they had the ability or if they would be able to download it into some site like that. Ancestry or someplace else. And of course there were privacy issues, and I had heard that some of these main genealogy sites would give up information if they were given a what do you call it a court order? But but what happens then is here you are trying to get a court order
for somebody that you don't know his identity. You don't have the information to download to your at crossroads, you're stuck. And so for a long time I figured the delays in getting that done were because of privacy issues and so on what I just mentioned. But what happened eventually was, of course they found ged match, and it was sort of an open public forum where you sign a thing that says if you put your DNA and hear your profile in here, at least that it's, you know, an
open kind of thing. You're wanting to find somebody, they're wanting to find you. And so you know, there was not the privacy issue is that had been encountered with other sites. But what I say in my book and what I'm asking about, and I'm asking a lot of questions like, well, how come it took so long? What happened was because I wish that D'Angelo was ten years younger than he is. I wish that it had been happening ten years ago, but you know, wishing doesn't make it.
So so what I wondered was why did it take so long? Ged Match was around it since about twenty ten, and so we have eight years of sort of waiting to see and then maybe they didn't know, but eventually what happened was in twenty thirteen, I know that they were discussing doing exactly the same thing. So that's five years ago. And so what my question was was like, why did it take so long? You know, if we knew we had his profile, and we knew that we had these abilities, why did it take so long? And
that's really pretty much what I wanted to know. I'm sure a lot of people wanted to know why it took so long and what it would have been nice to It would have been nice to be able to punish the guy a lot sooner. What did I find out just that I think it took a lot of sort of research trying to figure out how to do it and who to you know, who you could contact
to help you research it and to get it right. So, you know, like I said, the time frame was the timeframe, and but it just to me the last three four years of course, in particular, I kept wondering, how come it's ticking, you know. So I'm just glad that they finally caught him.
Certainly, now you write in your book about a couple cases that are either under investigation or you have your ideas about are both. And so we're talking about October sixteenth, nineteen eighty, Kathleen Neff, what are your ideas about this murder?
Now they may have, of course I don't get to talk to law enforcement about what they're currently investigating. Nobody does. They know what they're looking at and who was murdered
or who vanished or whatever happened. And they're trying to figure out if he was involved in particular cases like the one for Miss neph But you know, she was abducted off of Florine Road area, which was south Sacramento, not far from Fourth Parkway attack in nineteen eighty and she was found her body was found not too far
off of Highway. Its paralleled off of Highway ninety nine south we go south and the body was dumped out there and was found by pheasant hunters and they found her on November eighth of nineteen eighty, so that was never solved. It's on the Sacramento County website. And there are other cases, of course. I'm sure they're looking into and we will find out eventually who was connected to know what murder, because DNA is rapidly helping us catch people.
But yeah, there's a lot of different things they're trying to connect the dots to. Of course I have not got a line on that. I just put a particular case in because I thought, wow, this is right in the neck of the woods where not only did somebody try to abduct the woman off Florin Road in right around the same time as the Maggiori murders, this perpetrator
knew the area really well. He according to summer reports, almost fell into the creek behind Fourth Parkway, so he knew the area and he was seen there and was there. So it makes sense to me if he was in
that area. He lived in Citrus Heights in nineteen eighty, why would he not continue his crimes And he could have been peeping and breaking and entering who knows, And so we think that the connections to things ongoing from nineteen eighty on that he could have been involved with in Sacramento area.
You include a woman named Sue and her story. You call it Sue's story nineteen eighty three and her husband wakes up and see a man in the bedroom. Tell us about this story and what they found, and the follow up later as their not husband and wife anymore.
Right, Well, they had never heard really about the Easter Ay rapist until just in the last couple of years. But when one of the shows that was on television came on, they both communicated with one another. Although they're in different states now. Sue and her ex husband and at the time in nineteen eighty three, the perpetrator had broken into their home and her husband woke up and saw him standing at the end of their bed and
was looking out the window. And he pretended to be asleep, and Sue was asleep, and he didn't move, and he didn't blink, and he didn't breathe, and this guy was looking out the window and something made him go from that room, out of the room to the I believe it was the kitchen area or somewhere in the house. Anyway, they called the police and were told that they thought the guy was on the extension in the other room, and so they came out and took a report, and
they were concerned that the guy would come back. So there wasn't a lot of follow up on it at the time because it was nineteen eighty three and nobody was thinking any stereo rapist, and you know, but there were sightings, there were people that had prowlings. There are people who had you know, these kinds of experiences in that area. And this is also in the attack areas that Sue and her husband lived in, and so she of course reported this to Sech County sheriffs and so on.
So you know, there were things that happened after my nineteen eighty But in my book, I was saying that really I thought he was laying low, and he really did. I mean, he's kind of off the grid from about nineteen eighty to when he started working in nineteen ninety ninety one at the grocery store there in the distribution center, so it's harder to track him for about ten years there. So that'll be interesting to see what they come up with.
You right too, that it's interesting you say that the Janelle cruise in nineteen eighty and a parton me in nineteen eighty six. He lived down the street from where your son lives now and your grandfather is buried.
Correct. Yep, it was a six minute drive from where my son lives to where he is. And I was nervous all this time about the fact that I knew he was in Sacramento. Absolutely in my gut knew he was still there because he was Eric end.
So yeah, you talk about the one hundred and twenty three page redacted statement redacted documents from his arrest warrant, and you said they were glad that they were released
to the public that the judge did that. One hundred and twenty three pages talk about details of the suspected murders of Brian and Katie Maggiori, and also including murders of Lineman and Charlene Smith, your family members, right, How interesting or how interesting was reading that information and what anything new for you?
A lot of it was, you know, of course blacked out, But the bottom line for me in looking at that was it was just confirmation of what a lot of auth already knew that had looked into these cases and have been aware. All the people that you know pay attention to the details of these cases, that he was suspected of being Vicelli Tecker, and that they law enforcement
thought that he was. They concurred. They just the different things that you know that he was charged with the Smith murders, he was charged with Brian and Katie Maggiori murders, just confirmation. Really, the redacted statements just said to me that and to everybody that they really did believe that he was the guy that did all these things and it was all connected. So that's what it meant to me.
You do talk about some details that you learned, and and you do make a correction of I guess a media report involving Lynmon Smith and Charlene Smith in terms of the partner that was accused and the reason why he was exonerated to tell us the details.
Of that, well, I was just saying in the business partner who was originally charged in the murders and put in jail actually for a year. They never did pursue the case. They dismissed the charges because the only evidence that they really had was the preacher who had been a counselor to he and his wife, had said that
he had confessed to the crimes and they had. They spent the whole year trying to determine if this preacher was credible, and it turned out that he had inserted himself in cases before and that he basically was lying, and so they didn't pursue the case and they dropped
the charges. The only other evidence they had was a fingerprint on the wineglass, and the business associate had said, yeah, I'd been there the night before and had a glass of line with them, But there was no DNA, There was no other evidence to connect them, and eventually he was cleared when DNA caught up with the world. He
was cleared, you know, through DNA. So that was part of one of the things that you know, people went off on different areas, you know, each county went off on different suspects in different scenarios, and they thought that a lot of these crimes had been committed by people who maybe the victims had known, and so, you know, there were things that happened that kind of got in the way of it, sort of obscured the view of who the real perpetrator was and that we were really
looking at a serial killer, not just some random guy that knew each couple.
So another really fascinating part of this book is again something I didn't know. But that's why I go to read your books in the first place. Regarding this case, Mark Smith and the question of ballistics, you say it was watching Cold Case Files with Bill Curtis, and I've watched that program and the episode about Easter Area rapist. Tell us what they stayed in that episode interestingly and what he gets from it and his reaction and what he does as a result.
Well, he saw the show on television like most of us did long ago, and back in the day when this was first put on the air. It was I don't remember if it was two thousand, it was quite some time ago. They had said on the show that they thought it was law enforcement, and Mark Smith questions, how did they know that? Who did they hit that
information from? But at the time, that was his first introduction to the case, and he was fascinated by it and decided that he would follow it and figured eventually they would have caught him. Well, that wasn't the case. He followed the case and realized that the guy was still free and they hadn't figured it out. So he continued to research and continued to, you know, check it out and try to figure it out. And eventually I met him because of one of the books that I wrote.
But he's really great at ballistics and firearm information and tried to teach me what he was talking about.
Yes, one of the great questions. What he was saying is that that the ammunition that and he talks about it, the one hundred and ten grain super Valamo ammunition, Not that I know anything about it, but he said at that time he researched it was only available to lawforenforcement or security officers, and he began to question law enforcement in Santa Barbara regarding ballistics and then introduced to your book and contacted you.
Right, well, the Santa Barbara stuff just came out in the last few months in an article saying that they had nothing but ballistics evidence, and he was like, really, so Santa Barbara hadn't shared that, I don't think, at
least not with the public. But anyway, he was trying to figure out what the story was, and that's why he put a chapter in my book to talk about the ballistics involved in the fact that this type of ammunition was not available to just you and I it was just available well to law enforcement or security people, and that's why it should be. It should have been looked at more aggressively maybe, and that's what the chapter is about.
You also talk about this interesting story that comes out and you say it could be true, and you include it because it could be true about the environment that di'angelo grew up in, and then the trauma that reportedly his sister's husband later recounted as.
Actually it was I think his was his sister's son, so it would have been his nephew that recounted it.
If I'm not mistracing, that's right, sister's son exactly. Okay, So what is that trauma and tell us about that. I think that's very interesting.
Well, the report was in the interview was that the possibility that when D'Angelo was ten years old that he saw his sister, who was about seven at the time, be raped by I think it was two men. And this was in Germany when they were stationed there, his father was stationed there in the service. And also he talks about how the family didn't know this. It was a secret. Nobody talked about it. They were told not to talk about it, which is not surprising. Back in
the nineteen fifties. These are the kinds of things that you didn't talk about and you didn't get help for. So if he and his sister were traumatized by it, they didn't receive any out for it. So I'm sure it had to be very confusing for him at the time.
You talk about that, and you talk about his parents split and then it was a step father. What else did you what else did you find information about his back round?
Well, just that you know, he looked he was a Vietnam vet. He came back and went back to school and was engaged briefly to another woman. Uh, and that's Bonnie. And then also and that's the Bonnie that people talk about that he was mentioning when he was attacking people, but also that he you know, became a police officer.
He you know, graduated from college, He went to Rooseveil, did an internship there in the police department, wasn't hired there, moved on to Exeter and then Auburn, and uh, there's a gap in his employment from about seventy nine. We don't know exactly what he did, but maybe law enforcement does. I'm not privy to that. But yeah, his family background sounds like he had a maybe a controlling mother, a father who was a disciplinarian that was was rather be
FIV relationships. That's what I can gather from what I've read.
It was interesting too, you say you got a job his internship at Roseville, and then you talk about your marriage just a few weeks eight weeks or so after your aunt and uncle were killed, and that reception was at Roseville, wasn't it?
It was? The wedding was in Auburn. I mean, that's what I've made, is right, if I tried. I was married in Auburn in nineteen eighty I had been going there from nineteen seventy six until nineteen eighty three. I loved the area. Was going there to hike, to swim in the river, to just you know, eating good restaurants. And I loved the Gold Country little towns like Grass Valley and different places. And so I would work in Sacramento.
I lived in Sacramento. When we would drive up after work, we would many times hop in the car and go to boreoal Ridge and ski off Highway eighty. This is also during that same time timeframe, but we were married there in nineteen eighty and the church was like you could practically hit the police department with the rock from where I was married. Yeah, so yeah, just I mean I lived like Kirby Way in Roseville. The reception was in Rodesville, which is right down the road from where
DiAngelo lived. I used to shop at the grocery store not far from there. He may have done the same. I mean, this story. I didn't want this story. Who would. It just is what it is, and so eventually I had to write and get it out of my system.
Yes, well, I don't know if it's complete out of your system. What's interesting In the book too, we mentioned this woman Bonnie, but I thought, if you want to put psychological traumatic events together, they're engaged to make an announcement. Months later she marries another man, and then a few months later he married another woman. So not long after he's engaged to another woman. So mm hmm, yeah, I
thought that must be. That might be telling to see that engagement in all that hoopla over that pending wedding and then for it to be canceled and she just married another man.
So m yeah, And in my research and I'm not it looks like from what I've seen, that this woman that he was engaged to, and I'm trying to keep some privacy for the people that are really not involved in what this criminal ended up doing. She was in the area, and I believe may still be in the area, and I think that one of the reasons he stayed there, besides his arrogance, is because she was there all these years.
Mm hmm.
Yeah, Yeah, you.
Talk too that Joseph DiAngelo got a job that a district center save marked grocery store and he'd worked there for twenty seven years, And you said coworker saw him as a family man. But there was some talk, I mean when it first came out, too, there was talk about what the neighbors thought. That's the first people they spoke to. What was his work like, what was the relationship there with employees there and bosses.
Well, from what everybody's probably read who were interested in case, the coworkers didn't see anything wrong with them at all. They thought of him as a family man. They didn't see anything at all. They were actually concerned that the DNA could be wrong, some of them. So yeah, there was no red flags with them either. He was really good at compartmentalizing himself and showing the world what they needed to see, that he was a grandfather and other and you know, just just a guy.
The idea that he had a tough childhood is you've got that enough of that information that it was an abusive household. You do talk about that. It looks like that. You know that his father was beating up the mother. So this is things he did see in this household and did affect him. You did. You did say, interestingly, though, that when his nephew talks about this air force base attack, that the sister and the pardon me that de'angelo himself
and the sister have never mentioned it. Incidentally, not the best proof of it at all, but they've never mentioned it, right.
Yeah, supposedly, as a story goes, and his sister had talked to her son about this when she was dying. She's passed away since then, and so he had heard that from his own mother, and that his mother told him that she used to get hit by DiAngelo's mother. You know, she was the one who got the brunt of the physical abuse. So yeah, so the stories are
out there, the articles are out there about that. I wanted to before I forget, because it's important when we talk about this case and when we talk about D'Angelo, and we talk about all of this as though he has already been proven guilty. My disclaimer, and the disclaimer is is that he is innocent until proven guilty in
a court of law. And so you know, that's the thing that I have to mention because it's important, you know, in this justice system that he has his day in court, and as much as he is connected to this case by DNA and other evidence, he will get his dand court. So I have to make sure that that I say that because it's really true.
Now you wouldn't want violate his rights or anything. Let's talk about this impending trial. You estimate that it will be a few years. Why so long? And what is going on behind the scenes in terms of organization for this joint trialogy right, Well, what I've.
Been told is that it will take probably about four years. That's the estimation of time. And the reason is because this trial will be unprecedented in that it will have multiple jurisdictions who will try them try him in Sacramento at the same time. And so that's you know, that's a new thing. And of course there's discovery. The defense attorneys require all the information and also the time to study the get up to speed on the case. So
that's why it's it's a huge case. It's extremely detailed, there's a ton of information, and it's going to take a while. And so the estimate originally I had heard five years, and now it's like four. So we'll see when it happens, and you know, what could happen in the meantime, we don't know. One of the other things I have to clarify too real quickly is in this case and in my books, I've talked about who I
am and how I'm connected to the case. And I have to also mention that I have told in detail in my books who I am and how I'm connected to the case. But for people who haven't read the books, they don't know all the detail. And so I have to tell you that I am a step granddaughter of Lyman Jones Smith, and I've said that in my books,
and I've said that in identifying myself all along. I was two when my grandparents introduced me to them to him, and I was three when my grandmother married Lymon Jones Smith and Lyman Jones Smith is Lyman Robert Smith's father, and that is Jennifer Smith's father. So I just want to clarify that because for some reason there are people who have missed that detail. I have never not said
that detail. I've always identified myself as a three year old whose grandfather came into my world, married my grandma in nineteen sixty and was my grandfather all of my life until he was away pretty much in Sacramento, and he lived up in Tahoe as well. So just wanted to clarify that because there seems to be some misinformation or somebody has missed that detail somewhere. But it's in the books, every single one of them right anyway, So thank you for letting me clarify that.
What about the alias and pen Why the alias?
Well, I was worried, you know, when I was writing these books. Of course, originally I thought about putting it out under my real name, but I know the guy was still free, he was still nearby. That was my opinion, and so when I met and spoke to Larry Crompton, he told me, Laurie, don't tell who you are. My real name is Laurie, as you know, and pen Slash Lurie, And what I did was write the first book, and he convinced me to not even put my family story
in there or my connection. So I pulled it all out of the book and I put it out under and Penn and I removed as much of my original story as I could. But I did try to stand up for Charlene and Lyman Smith because they were victims of a criminal who randomly killed them as far as I know, and people said a lot of pretty harsh stuff about the Smith family or the Smith murders at the time, and I just thought, wow, this is these
people are victims. They need to be remembered as people who were human and had flaws, but they were people, nonetheless who did not deserve what this criminal did. And that's true of all of the victims in this case. And so I wanted to honor the victims. And that's why I wrote what I did, and then I put out the second edition because I didn't feel like it was complete. I needed. People were like, well, who are you?
Why do you care about this so much? I care because I watched my grandfather, our grandfather pretty much fall apart when the murders occurred, and the story of the bludgeoning was so horrendous that I couldn't even comprehend it, and I hid it from my own mind for years because it was so awful and I was so afraid, And so I still put it out under end Penn
because he was still free. And then he's been caught, and now people know who Anne Penn is, and that, you know, if they've followed anything that I've written about. I'm still using that. Who knows who's still out there, you know, so as far as like any associates or anybody else that might be involved here. So I'm trying to be careful and also true to my story and then also follow the crimes and get sort of the
story out there. Actually, after this happened, after D'Angelo was arrested, the last thing I wanted to do was write anything more about this guy. And I had people say are you going to write? Are you going to?
Yeah?
I wanted to write something else, completely, something happy and light, and people were asking me, yeah, people were asking me, well, are you going to, you know, write something else, You're going to you know, do something, And so I added a couple of chapters to Murder on his mind Serial Killer the second edition about the fact that Giangelo was
arrested and what we knew so far. And this was back in like May of twenty eighteen, and then, as you know, information came along and I had a million questions. That's what I put in this book, my questions about what happened, How did we miss this guy, what did he do? Who was he? How you know? What do we know? And so that's how this book came to be.
How much more did you get confirmed since that initial time when you got those initial details to verify or confirm some of your assertions and assumptions and ideas. How much did that change and what are those What were you convinced of as a result.
Well, of course, as you know, I thought he was in Sacramento, and I thought he was they'd never left, and that he was law enforcement. So of course I got confirmation that that was true, and all the stories that come out about in TAngelo. I was just surprised that I thought he had become a police officer after nineteen eighty six, that was really what I thought. I also thought he was younger than he turned out to be. I was hoping he was younger, so he could be
I stronger. Just different things that I thought about where he lived, where he was, what he did, turned out to be true. And that's I've put that in this book also sort of what I said and Murder on his Mind and what turned out to be true the comparison, and it was a lot of information about his family, about what type of mommy had, what his position in the family was, that he was the oldest son, that
he had siblings, a brother and a sister. It's just a lot of different things that I said in my original book from studying not only serial killers, but from studying case things that turned out to be true.
Yes. Absolutely. One more thing that I found was very interesting is that in Murder on His Mind your books about this case, and I've asked you about this as well, is that with your own personal attack that you think that could be related that you've included in your book in that you don't put to rest the notion because you include another story where there's two people involved for this case. Did you put that to rest or is that still up in the air as a possibility.
Well, from what I understand, it is up in the air, and it is a possibility. But that being said, you know, we're letting law enforcement do their job and investigate and do what they do. We'll find out the details maybe eventually. But yeah, Originally, when I was chased down my street in nineteen seventy one, it was by two men in
a truck. And there's been a speculation over time in this case whether or not there were two different men, two different descriptions weights, you know, dark hair versus light hair, and so on and so, and there was even speculation about the Maggioria murders that there might have been two people.
But what occurred in the last year is Sheriff's detective Ken Clarke came out and he said he went into great detail on a podcast about the fact that the Maggia murders were believed to be Easter a rapist as the perpetrator, and he went into great detail about why people believe that and how they investigated it and why they didn't know it so clearly back in the seventies. And so that was a good thing to hear and to know. But I don't know, it's just so much
detail in this case. I'm telling you that there could be there could have been more than one person involved, but law enforcement will, i'm sure, investigate all of the leads and all of the information.
I'm sure you're really curious to what can be derived and be known and learned from the trial that you say might take four years. You do speculate in this or that, and then other police may believe this as well. But you theorize something. Tell us about him possibly traveling and continuing tell us about your theory about that.
Well, you know what's interesting is I don't know that he went too far from this whole area all this time, meaning in California, but there could be cases, of course that they connect the dots across the country, you know, if he traveled anywhere, if he was anywhere I mentioned something about, I'm really interested to find out where he was specifically in nineteen eighty eight, because I really think that he may have will not only attacked somebody, but
possibly murdered somebody in that year. But that's just my gut feel about it. From looking into his timelines, the importance he places on events and just you know, anniversaries and just those kinds of things, there's no important to him.
Can you tell us more about this case?
Well, in nineteen eighty one, of course, he had a daughter. In nineteen eighty six he had a daughter, nineteen ninety had a daughter. And we know what he did in eighty one and eighty six as far as murdering people, because he did commit murders in those timeframes. But also in nineteen eighty eight, all of a sudden, he's off the radar, he's off the grid. And what did he
do that year? His wife was pregnant that year, So I suspect that there was something, you know, that was his reaction to whatever stress there was involved, I think with being pregnant, and not long after the third child was born, he and his wife separated within a couple of years, so in a very small child when when she left with the kids.
And restraining order as well, isn't it.
I had seen a restraining order at one point, yeah, towards him.
Interesting with this case, unlike the case suffering for so many years from at least some law enforcement not taking as seriously as it should have been. Thankfully, luckily there was law enforcement like Richard Shelby, Carol Day, Larry Crompton and others, Ken Clark, all kinds of other people and then you mentioned and give credit to them in this book as well. But now law enforcement is very seriously looking at any other possibilities for this killer, aren't they.
Of course, yes, yeah, as it should, and yeah, it'd be interesting to find out, you know what the story shows us later on. So I'm sure that they are very very busy and trying to connect all the dots. Everybody wants as many crimes solved as possible, and there's a lot of cold cases, and certainly in the state of California, you know, there hadn't seemed to be any that fit his MO over time, and even looked at
cases across the United States. And the thing that's interesting about this particular perpetrator is this he was able and smart enough to change his mo He changed it up over and over. That only did he try to abduct women, but he attacked in homes, and he attacked in different ways in different places, and he didn't stick to the
same thing all the time. So he changed it up over time in any way he felt like he needed to to try to keep people from realizing that it was the same guy, and he was successful at that for a very long time. So that's what's different about this guy? He was able to change and more if he was like a chameleon really and very successful at it.
Absolutely, I want to thank you very much and pen or Lorie for coming on talking about the creep among a Golden State Killer after the rest. For those that might want to check out your other work concerning the Easter Aeo rapist, how might they do that? And do you have a website Facebook page?
Well, of course the books are all on Amazon under and pen and it's a N N E P E N N. But also I have a Facebook page and pen and then also I have a word press blog that's and penn at WordPress, so I have, you know, different ways that you can see what I've been posting and talking about our articles, et cetera. And like I said, the books are all there, so I'm hoping to put them on sale actually pretty soon, so that'd be cool. Maybe I can get to that this So absolutely that's good.
Thank you very much and for coming on and talking about this. I know this is in the end of the story and I know we'll be talking to you again about this, so thank you very much. You have a great evening and talk to you again. Real soon.
Good Night, Thank you, Dan, I appreciate it. Good Night, good night,