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Plus, you are now listening to True Murder The most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them Geesy Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous.
Killers in true crime history.
True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good Evening.
During an eight month period in nineteen seventy seven and nineteen seventy eight, the city of Columbus, Georgia, was terrorized by a mysterious serial killer who raped and ritualistically strangled seven elderly women in one of the community's finer neighborhoods. Despite intense of efforts on the part of police, the Stocking Strangler, as he came to be known, managed to elude capture. After the last murder in April nineteen seventy eight,
the case went cold. In the spring of nineteen eighty four, a series of fortuitous events connected to an unrelated murder and a stolen pistol led to the capture of Carlton Gary, who had recently escaped from a South Carolina prison. Following a dramatic trial in nineteen eighty six, Gary was convicted of three of the seven Columbus murders and sentenced to death, a penalty that would not be carried out until twenty
and eighteen. This convoluted tale of crime and punishment is punctuated by dramatic twists and turns, including issues of race, alleged conspiracy and misconduct on the part of the police, in the judiciary, and errors in DNA analysis. The book that we're featuring this evening is The Columbus Stocking Strangler with my special guest author will William Rawlings. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. William Rowlings.
It's my pleasure to be here, Dan, thank you so inviting me.
Thank you so much, and congratulations on this book that is to be released September sixth, so by the time people hear this interview, it will have been released just recently. Congratulations on this book. This is an incredible wild tale. As we talked about just before in the introduction, let's get right to Columbus, Georgia, and you talk about that it really occurs. These crimes really occur in a village of Winton about two and a half miles east of Columbus, Georgia.
So this occurs in the as you talk about a crime wave in nineteen seventy seven, tell us a little bit about Columbus, Georgia and this village of Winton, who it comprised, members of society who live there, and a little bit about Camp Benning and its relationship to Columbus and this story.
Today, Columbus, Georgia is the state's second largest city. But if you back up a good bit, and by that I mean to the nineteenth century when it was founded in the first the end of the first quarter of the nineteenth century, Columbus was a river town. It was the uppermost novel reach of the Chattahoochee River. It's because of the river. It's been always been a mill town and it's always been a somewhat wealthy city over the years.
During the Civil War years of the eighteen sixties, it was a major town for production of Confederate arma months and so forth, and soon in the twentieth century. There are still mills there, but the economy is diversified, and today it's a fairly wealthy and very cosmopolitan city. It's a nice place and I like Columbus a lot. I have nothing but positive things to say about the town Winton.
The district of Winton at one time was a separate village a couple of miles inland from the river, but today has been engulfed by the city and is basically a very upscale neighborhood. But there are some modest homes, but some of the finest homes in this city itself are located in this area, and a number of people with social prominence and a good little bit of wealth are there as well. It's an interesting part of town, but it's very definitely part of urban Columbus.
Let's talk about as you describe, as you title crime wave September eleventh, nineteen seventy seven, in this predominantly white neighborhood, and tell us who is.
Attacked and how well this is in a chapter of the book were titled crime Wave. And I should say that that there were a series of violent crimes, perhaps no more so, perhaps less so than today, But at the time there were several robberies, murders, rapes, and so forth, and so on. September eleventh, nineteen seventy seven, elderly white female named Gertrude Miller was who ran a kindergarten, was attacked in her bedroom by a man. She woke up
and found this person standing over her. She there was a brief period of time when she the light was turned on and she recognized him as being a black male. He beat her savagely and then raped her. She was apparently left for dead, but she did not die, and a neighbor discovered her the next morning. And that was one more crime that had occurred in a series. And yet it was the start of this series of events attributed to the Columbus Strangler.
There was a description made by Gertrude Miller, wasn't there?
Yes, there was. She described him as being a fairly young black male, being handsome, having a short afro, having I believe no facial hair at the time, and this and that. But she had been she actually had a fractureous skull, and there was always some question as to whether or not her identification was completely correct, although she insisted quite well that she saw the guy, she'd recognize him again, et cetera, et cetera.
What did police do with this composite? Was it release to the press or the public, well, the police, not that moment.
It was a little bit later on in there in the series of events that occurred, the police realized that this event was apparently the first of a series of events which became known as the Strangler's Reign of Terror. They later went back the next month and they interviewed her. They got a composite drawing of her which they passed around. It was not particularly helpful, but that was a matter of some sensitivities that showed a black mail in the
black community. The African American community was concerned that they were trying to pin this on a person of color, and that was a soul point there in Columbus for the longest time.
You write that. Six days later, September sixteenth, Miss Mary Willis Jackson, known as Fern, didn't show up at work. She was a director of education for the Columbus Health Department. She's fifty nine years old and she was a widow as well. What do her daughter and police find? What's her state?
Well, she was pillar of the community and very prominent and very well respected. She simply didn't come to work. One day. Someone discovered that her house had been broken into her car had been stolen, and they found her body. She was naked, the waist down in her her face had been covered up like the like Miss Miller. Forgive me, I forgot to say that Miss Miller was apparently her attack. I apparently attempted to strangle her, apparently with a stocking,
although that was not exactly clear at that point. But Fern was strangled with her stocking, and other than her car, her valuables were not taken. It appeared to be a very savage murder of the same sort where she was savage beaten and then raped and strangled and left dead. In this case, so this became the first murder that
was attributed to the strangler. You have to understand that you have to have several people before you understand before a trend is happening, And this was the second one, and people begin to say, oh, it looks a little bit like miss Gertrude millis event.
In terms of forensic hair samples were gathered, what did they find, if anything.
They found in this case and in several others that there were foreign hairs that appeared to be pubic hairs that were described as being quote negeroid that is the term that was used, not mine. And it was sort of assumed that the attacker in this case was a black male, similar the same description that had been given with Miss Gertrude Miller earlier. This in order to avoid inflaming racial sensitivities, the ledged race of the attacker was
not made a big issue. They simply were looking for somebody.
Right now, you write soon after we're talking September twenty fourth, Jean Dimenstein, seventy one year old, retired cowner of a little department store. She was unmarried, and she'd lived in her home for twenty three years. There was a break and enter attempt the night before. So tell us what happens the night before, and then what happens with Jean Diaminstein during.
This period of time. And let me say we're talking here between September nineteen seventy seven and the early part of say the winner of nineteen seventy eight, there were a number of burglaries in this entire in this district. Ms Diemenstein's neighbor had an attempted break in at her house.
The person was unable to get in. It turned out the next night the apparent same person returned and broke into them Miss Diemenstein's house, and again she was raped and murdered, with a crime scene that was very similar to the one of Fern Jackson from the sense that she'd been strangled with a stocking, her body was covered up, and the pattern of the arrangement of the murder scene would occur in subsequent murders attributed to the strangler.
One of the most horrifying things elements of this crime was regarding the door tell us about that.
She had a door to her car poard and was locked, of course, but apparently was put on in such a way that the hinges were the outside. So someone simply put the hinge pins out and removed the door, and the lady that discovered her body came up and found her door had been removed and realized her her horror what might be found, and that's when the police were called and her body was subsequently identified.
Right now, this is raising panic in the community that you get headlines from the Ledger inquirer sex killer strike second time. Second elderly women in nine days found molested, in strangled in their homes. And then there enters someone that is an important figure a coroner, Kilgore tell us what he has to say and what it sparks.
Eventually, the corner in Georgia is an elected position. You have to understand that, and one does. One needs only a modicum of medical background. That's usually done by what to call medical examiners in the state. And so basically you've got a politician who is elected office and sometimes
they make statements that are inflammatory. He made a lot of a number of statements that said that the killer was brutal, that he had he revealed details of the crime that the police said should not have been revealed. He alleged that the killer was probably black, although the police were trying to keep that information confidential, and he was a bit of a thorn in the side during the entire investigation. According to my opinion from what I.
Have read right now, the police proceed the look at footprints, Layton fingerprints, house success where they are obtaining any of those, and you write that soon a suspect with a question mark emerges.
Well after the first two murders and the attack on miss Gertrude Miller, the police were under a tremendous amount of pressure to saw office. He was particularly violent and vile crimes and the most innocence of victims to three elderly ladies. And so the police were under a lot of pressure. And there was a twenty five year old African American male named Jerome Lebas. Lebas was to use the term at the time. He was of limited intellectual abilities and that was from multiple accounts and was sort
of a pitiful fella, I guess. So he had a girlfriend who was about thirty years older than he. She was in her fifties, and apparently they've gotten in dispute. He alleged that she had quote been with another man end quote, and he actually strangled and raped her. She was an a middle aged black femail. The mo of the two that is, a strangulation and rape and a violent attack against a woman was vaguely similar. The police knew that they were a police thought that the crimes
were committed by a blackmail. So they got Jerome to confess to the first two murders, right, And it was a parable situation because the man was pitiful to the police. Chief began to say, well, we've got ourselves a suspect, and the mayor said, we've got a suspect and the community started to breathe a sigh of relief. And when they called up the district attorney at the time and presented the evidence to him, no, no, he said, listen,
you don't have enough evidence to convince this person. And despite the fact that he quote unquote confessed, this is not legitimate. Number one, he could not read the confession that he signed. And number two he signed it one evening and he recanted the next morning. So it appeared that the police were trying to find this man or Pendy's murders on him. Then more happened and it became evident that he was not the killer.
All.
They remained in jail for the murder of his girlfriend.
Yeah, well, it's interesting and very compelling that evidence that he may not be the killer may being an exaggeration or understatement. You write about October twenty first, three days later after it seems like they have a reasonable suspect,
a good suspect. The apartment of Florence Scheibel. She's a widow living independently, just released from hospital as well from with a broken hip, and her son Paul would visit every day, checked on her every day, tell us what happens what to police and his son find.
Miss Sabel was perhaps the most pitiful of the case. She was eighty nine years old, ten days Shah ninety years of age. She had had a host of medical problems and was said to be essentially deaf and for the most part blind. She saw things with blur, and perhaps her only enjoy in life was getting out in her front yard with her walker and trying to pick
things up. She was just really a pitiful thing, and there was testimony from neighbors and witnesses that she would commonly leave her front door unlocked when she was out in the yard. Her apartment building, it was a bit of a duplex upstairs and downstairs apartments, and she was right on the street, so it appeared it was postulated that when she was out of the yard someone slipped in her front door, she would not have noticed it. Accordingly, when she came back in, she was attacked and again
brutally raped and murdered. She was strangled with a stocking, her neck was broken. She was beat up like the others, and it was horrible. Her son and his wife came. Her son came to visit her. He found that her door was unlocked, he called his wife. He was afraid to even go in. It was his wife who've discovered her mother in law dead.
Now you see that any kind of calm that had been established with this suspect being arrested was gone.
It was And you have to understand, now, this is the third of the three murder, of the first three murders, this is the third murder plus a fourth attack, assuming Miss Miller was attacked by the same person. And so you had a community that was breathing a sigh of relief at the supposedly or a supposed arrest of suspect, and long to hold. Here you have another murder, another vile murder that it's the same pattern, and this in essence sort of frees suspicion from Jerome Levas. He remained
in jail, of course, for the other murder. And to fast forward a little bit, one of the newspaper reporters in town, a fellow named Karl Kanton, was suspicious and he kind of got an interview with Levas, and Levas at the time admitted to being present at the Kennedy assassination and then McKinley assassination, and was present when the Lindbergh baby was napped, I believe in the nineteen thirties, and it was very very clear that almost no matter what you said to him, he would agree to it.
He simply was not mentally capable of this. And it became quite evident that the so called confession that he had signed and then a candidate, was one that it had not been recorded by the police that had written it down, and so there was no evidence that he actually said what he did, and it pretty clear that he was being framed by the police.
Certainly didn't do anything for police credibility at that point, absolutely not. And then Martha Thurmond, the sixty nine year old widow, retired school teacher, and this is interesting too. The response from residence is that they put burglar bars and alarms and did precautions screens on their windows, and she had done this. He had installed extra dead bolts. What happens to Martha Thurmond.
She suffers the same fate as the other murders. That is to say, she was attacked in the middle of the night and bead and strangled and raped in the same general pattern as the others. The interesting thing about this particular episode was that her son had been there and had visited with her over the weekend and actually
had left a few hours before she was murdered. He had installed locks on her door, and apparently one of the locks was installed backwards, that is to say, the screws for the dead boat lock were exposed to the outside. So all it took was a few simple turns of a two to take her locks off and get inside, and of course that led to her death there.
And she was another person that was strangled with a nylon.
Yes, of the seven case murder cases, five were strangled with nylon with stockings a presumed nylon, one was strangled with a scarf and and the other one was strangled with a blind cord, a small cord as you'd use to open her clothes curtains.
You say, press and citizens begin began referring to the killer as the stocking strangler. Hence to tell your.
Book, Well, at this point, you had what four deaths,
all of which fit a pattern. Actually, if you include you, and you include the intact owned miss Miller, you had five that were murders or attempted murders where the victim was strangled with a stocking and it became and also as if you look at the crime scene reports, the bodies were positioned in such a way there the face was covered up and the rest of the body may have been exposed, this kind of thing, And so it became evident that apparently one person was committing these crimes,
and they were all in a very close neighborhood. For example, Miss Thurman and Ms. Shiper lived quite close together, as did the others.
Now there's a psychological profile of the killer released. Won't fixate on too much. It says blackmail sixteen to twenty one, high school graduate, possibly bedwether, fire starter or animal torturer, hunting, no anxiety, remorse or guilt, lives near the crime scene, areas, sexually inadequate, pathological liar, pretty general.
Yeah, yeah, it was, and I think I think as a I won't say a move of desperation, but as an attempt to get some insight on some of the people. Check with the FBI profilers, and I think it's been pretty well established that profiles are not necessarily accurate. This profile, if you read it carefully, was fairly generic. It could have been in a number of people. And while there were some things that may have fit the eventually identified killer.
There were a lot of things that didn't. I don't think it was helpful at all, but it gave some people something to think about.
An interesting development. Gertrude Miller is again the police. It's common in some of at that time for them to want to gain further information, potentially from hypnotizing her. So a composite and this hypnosis is done, and a composite is done. At that time, I believe maybe you can tell us about that. But also a task force is set up with a person named Ronnie Jones, I believe, as the head of the task force. Us to what the makeup of his task forces tell us about that development.
Well, by this time you had what for murders and one attack at least you had, and I should should say that there were a number of burglaries in the neighborhood too, so people attempted to entry into homes. And you know, it may have been that there would have been more murders, more violent crimes, but everyone was scared very much so, and the pressure owned the authorities and that on is not only law enforcement but also the city government to do something. Everyone says, we can't have
this happening. I mean, you've got lots and lots of police on the street. Everyone is trying to catch this mysterious strangler. He became by this time, he became known as the Strangler. Everyone was trying to catch the strangler. And so we're going to solve the problem in the old fashioned American way of setting up a task force. And it was mentioned before the start of the year and really kind of got off the ground good fashion after the New Year of nineteen and January nineteen seventy eight.
But the idea was that they would exhaust every possible manner of solving this problem. And yet it didn't make any difference. Nothing really happened. The police were the police. Days off were canceled. Everyone was working twelve hour shifts. There were assistants brought in from the FBI, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. There were helicopters, helicopters flying around at night,
shining lights in the neighborhood. There were records, thousands of records of people that were pulled over by the police and simply questioned. They still exist, by the way, huge card files of them. And nothing happened. Despite the efforts.
December twenty eighth. Tommy Stevens is a maid at the home of Miss Kathleen Woodroof. She's worked for her for thirty three years, so she finds something out, but not right away. She discovers something about Kathleen. Tell us what happens what she discovers.
Miss Woodrooff, Kathleen Woodrooff was a very very prominent citizen. She was a member of the very wealthy and very prominent Woodruff family. She was the widow of a former University of Georgia football coach, I Believe Woodruff Field, and one of the building at the University of Georgia and Athens is named for him. She was highly respected and she lived again in Winton, in a nice part of town, and she had a maid who had been with her
for years. Her maid comes in one morning and discovers that she's still in bed sleeping, but it apparently was not outside of the fact that sometimes she simply slept late in the morning. Her maid had noticed that when she left the night before, she had been sitting a desk, perhaps writing a check or something like that, And after a while, when she didn't wake up, her mate went in and looked at her and realized that she had blood coming out of her mouth and she was in
fact dead. She called her son, who identified the body. It's interesting in the fact and ironic in the fact that instead of she was not strangled with her but strangled instead with a University of Georgia's scarf, which was ironic in the sense that there was a big relationship between her late husband and the University of Georgia. She was perhaps the most socially prominent individuals of the strangle had murdered up to this point, and of course this just stirred the pot further.
You say there was a reward offered as the panic grew twenty thousand dollars now and then some and there was patrols in the Winton area, so the police presence, some visible, some not so visible. You say, break ins were diminished, but not eliminated. And two residential break ins of interest occurred in this period of time as well, didn't they?
Yes, which ones were you referring? There was so many of them. There was a Missus Swift, Yes, there was Swift and who and the other was the ilges Illgiessts Okay, the Swiss and the Iligis were both had very large, fine homes, and it were persons of substance and wealth. The Swift House was a large, white column mansion that was broken into. The Ilges's house, which was described as being quote the castle quote vaguely resembled an English country house,
was actually broken into twice. Once was on New Year's Eve or January thirty first decent I'm sorry, December thirty one, January first of nineteen seventy seven seventy eight during the night, and was broken in a second time about a month later.
I believe in the case of the Swift House, the burglary happened when no one was home, but in the case of the ils home, the mus Ilgis, who was elderly and fit the demographic of the strangler's victims, was there, but also her husband, who was in his eighties and was medically infirmed, was in another bedroom. And part of the pattern, as it would turn out later looking at things retrospectively, was that the strangler would not kill a woman kill one of his victims unless she was alone
in the house. The fact that this woman's husband, miss Iligs's husband was in a another bedroom of the second floor, second or third floor of her home, apparently deterred the strangler from harming her.
Now, while police are investigating, there is a miss Schwab, another widow. She had installed alarms like many other women, and that alarm was connected to her next door neighbor.
This was This was another situation where the woman survived the attack of the strangler and she was she she was quite wealthy. The Schwob I think as Harry pronounce her name Schwob was ran a large business that she
had inherited from her husband. She lived alone. She was concerned that she fit the demographics of the strangler's victims, so she had talked to her next door neighbor, doctor Fred Burdette, and they had each installed alarms such that she could press a button at her house and he could press a button at his house, and then they
would check on each other. Well. It so happened that had been at least one false alarm, and in the middle of the night, Dtor Burdett is woken up by the buzzard ringing, So rather than call the police immediately because there'd been one false alarm before, he calls me Schroke next door that she doesn't answer, but and of course he immediately calls the police. They both enter her house and it turns out that she's alive and sitting on the edge of the bed with a stocking wrapped
around her neck. She had been the strangler's next victim, but had managed to fight him off. And the phone call when dtor Burdette had called her back to check on or apparently terrified the stranger and he left and got away that night. But as it were, he went on to kill another woman, and there's another victim in
the neighborhood. He simply hid in the bushes until the coast was clear, and then apparently early that morning, right before daylight, killed another victim just down the street, Mildred Boram, Miss Boram right.
Yes, now, Cad dwell too much on what happens next, even though this is incredible development, But the Klan steps up and volunteers to assist the police. Of course, the police aren't asking for the clan's help, But an even more incredible development happens after from a group called Forces of Evil. Tell us about both of these bizarre and dangerous developments.
You have to understand that the Klukux Klan, even in the nineteen seventies, was considered a bunch of evil racists. Nobody seriously supports the Clan in the South, just back there allegations to the contrary. I mean, the Klan and the Clan is just total outliers. And they since everybody had sort of quote unquote you end quote the strangler was said to be black, that they were going to sort of start doing patrols in the neighborhood, which just
horrified everyone, most importantly the police. Not much came of it, but it was just another twist. Perhaps the most interesting thing was that the police chief in January, after the first of the year in nineteen seventy eight, began getting letters from someone who signed himself as the Chairman of the Forces of Evil. This person sent and I believe six or seven or eight letters to the police chief.
During the course of this one sided correspondence, the chairman revealed that this was a white supremacist organization and that they did not they thought that since the stranger was black and killing white women, that they, as white supremacists, were going to kidnap and kill black women. And as it turned out, two black women were kidnapped and killed. Well. It so happened that this so called white supremacist organization was in fact a black male named William Henry Hans,
who was a soldier stationed at Fort Benning. Fort Benning is a large military institution that abuts the lower the southern border of the city of Columbus. He himself off was a serial killer who apparently killed a total of four women. There were two in Columbus. He was identified through his own stupidity by using US Army paper stationery, and his voice was recorded, and eventually someone at Fort
Vinning recognized that he was apprehended. He eventually came to trial and was executed for the murder of two women there in Columbus. It was totally bizarre situation that another serial killer was using the episodes attributed to the stranger to cover up his own murderous intentions.
Incredible. You write that Mildred Borham was killed February eleventh, you talk about you write about April twentieth, Janet T. Koefer, a sixty one year old widowed kindergarten teacher. She doesn't show up for class. What are some of the same characteristics found there?
She was the one victim who lived a little bit further away. She was the strangler's so called last victim, and she lived not too far away, but was not the first six six victims. First six murder victims lived within an area where one could walk from one house to the other in less than ten minutes. Right, this lady lived perhaps fifteen minutes away, but nearby in the same general area. I should say. She simply didn't come to work one day. She just when she didn't, someone
from her school goes by. Notice the screen has been cut. They the police are called and entry is made to the house. And again her body was like the others, the same tragic crime scene with she was strangled in her body position and covered up as the others had been.
There was a chief McClung, and he, as you right, he paints a dim picture of the investigation. What does he have to conclude at the end of this in terms of this dim picture of the investigation?
Well, you have to understand this is think about this for a period of eight months more or less. You have seven murders, you have burglaries, you have one or two other attacks Ms. Borum and Ms Miller, You have fingerprints, you have shoe prints, you have other crime scene evidence, you have every possible resource locally plus state and federal resources, and you had this guy had managed to elude everything. Gosh, what kind of a criminal is this? I mean, he's amazing.
And despite all as they didn't have a real suspect, there was no one and after the April nineteen seventy eight murder, the case went cold. There were a lot of scares, there were a lot of investigation continued, there was a lot of tips, a lot of people were investigated, but nothing substentiative. And so as time went forward, well six months, a year, or two years, it looked like the strangle had totally disappeared. When never be found. It was a code case, notsing more.
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ten percent off your first three months. Visit ritual dot com slash murder and turn healthy habits into a ritual that's ten percent off at ritual dot com slash murder now. William we were talking about the case goes cold, But March twelfth, nineteen eighty nine, we talked about it for two d series of events. The Bombay Bicycle Club a restaurant in East Columbus. End of the night, a figure in a ski mask orders everybody out of the at gunpoint,
out of this restaurant. Tell us how it leads to Carlton Gary.
This is one of the most bizarre tales that you can possibly imagine. It is secuitous and almost unbelievable. As noted in March nineteen eighty four, the police got a silent alarm from a place called the Bombay Bicycle Club. It was like four between three and four in the morning. It was a restaurant that was closing up. The manager and two employees were walking out in the back door when a fella in a ski mask comes up and sticks a gun in the manager's ribs and says go
back inside. And the first thing the ski mask robber does is lock them in the liquor cabinet and the liquor closet there was a large locking room where they kept their liquor and beer, and so he locks the three of them in there. On the three people were scared to death, and the first thing they did was
barricade the door with cases of flicker and beer. And after a few minutes the fella comes back to the door, apparently not having found whatever he was looking for, and demands they opened the door, and he beats on the door and tries to get in, but they had he had locked him in that they locked him out so between After a while he gives up and heads out the back door. Well just as he's just as he goes out and gets in his car, the police show up.
The fella named Spanky that was his nickname, Spanky Boy, and a twenty six year old patrolman who is patrolling who's by himself. He pulls into the parking lot of the Bombay Bicycle Club and notices a blue nineteen seventy seven Dodge Charger with its lights off screeching out of the parking lot at a high rate of speed, So he of course flips on his blue lights and gives chase. They go up Auburn Avenue, which is of a good street there for about three quarters of a mile and
then it sort of dead ends into edge. I believe the name is Edgewood Row which was a residential street. The charger took a sharp left, but at a high rate of speed lost it. He crashes into several cars and ends up in someone jarred with this vehiclerect Bowen stops his patrol car and with a flashlight in one hand and as radio and his other goes up and starts kind of looks in the driver's side window there and is shot twice in the forehead and he died
shortly thereafter. He did not draw his weapon well. He had of course called the police to back him up, and very shortly thereafter the of the patrolman arrived, but by that time the driver of this Dodge charger had left.
The commotion had attracted someone and a witness there that lived in one of the houses had seen a white male leave the car and head in one direction, and as it turned out, there was a large creek named Lindsey Creek, sort of urban waterway, oversized, not big enough for Beer river, but bigger than a small little branch.
He apparently had followed that up the creek well. Obviously, with a dead patrolman and this type of crime, the police were everywhere, and the investigating offers soon discovered that the car that had wrecked belonged to the girlfriend of a guy named Lonnie Botts. Botts she said that her boyfriend had had the car that night, so he became the prime suspect. The police go to his mother's house
where he nominally lived. She denied knowing much about it, but in the hamper they found some soaking wet clothes and thought, well, you know, he was at least here, and he's somewhere. And also as part of that search they discovered a box of for a Ruger twenty two caliber automatic pistol. Right now, two things in looking at the car. There were two spent cottriages found in the car, presumably indicating that Patrolman Bowen was killed without automatic pistol.
And these were of these were consistent with the ones founded the home of Lonnie bots and it was thought that they should be looking for a Ruger pistol. Well, it occurred to someone that during the Strangler's reign of terror some six years earlier are actually longer than that, there had been a burglary at Cali East House where Ruger Pistol had an automatic Ruger pistol had been stolen,
so sort of shortened what is long story. The search began for this ruger pistol, and Mike Seller, who was one of the patrolmen investigating one of the officers rather investigating, put out an a bullet into every police force in the nation. Very promptly. He gets something back from the Lansing, Michigan, the state capitol of Michigan. At the time, Michigan was one of three states that required the registration of pistols. They said that someone in Kalamazoo, Michigan, had registered a
gun with the same serial number. They approached this gentleman who said that he had gotten this from his mother and she lived in Gary, Indiana. So they go to Gary, Indiana, and she said that she had gotten the pistol from her brother because they had been a break in and she felt like she needed some protection. And yes, lo
and behold, the brother lived in Phoenix City, Alabama. And for people that don't know the anatomy of Georgia and Alabama, and Phoenix City is directly across the river from Columbus. In other word, this led back home to this pistol that had been stolen in October nineteen seventy seven. Right, So they approached the man that from whom she assumed the lady got the pistol. His name was Jim Gary. They asked him where to get it. He said he
got it from his nephew of melananamed Carlton Gary. They said, well, where's Carton and he says he's in one of them South Carolina prisons, and so they said, but he's been out on paroles. So the police started investigating and as it turned out, he had not been released from prison.
That One of the things that seemed to stop the wrangle as Reign of Terror back in seventy eight was the fact that Carlton Gary had been robbing restaurants in South Carolina, had become known as the Steakhouse bandit, and had been sentenced to prison. So much of the enterbeing time, Carlton Gary had been in prison in South Carolina. After a few years in prison, he had convinced people there that he had reformed and he had quote unquote seen
the light end quote. So he was moved from a maximum security prison and made a trustee at another low security system. He's prison, I'm sorry. He stayed there for two weeks and walked, and he'd come back to Columbus, and he was not out on parole. He was free, and he was in the city of Columbus at that time. So, as it would turn out, Carlton Gary had actually been
interviewed several times by the police. Yes, you have to remember this was in the days before extensive use of computers and so forth, and some he carried no ID and gave police a spurious spurreus and different name every time he was picked up. In fact, he had been arrested earlier in April smoking marijuana and head there's a mug shot in the Columbus police files which I included
in the book. Well, he had been arrested actually under a different name and released on five hundred dollars cash bond. So he was there and that is when they finally knew the man's name and they started searching. That's a long story.
Yeah, you talk about me the nineteen eighty four and his arrest and some major characters that come into play and question him or there for the questioning Born Rowe detective sellers Miller and Warren talk about they think he's pretty bright guy. He's got a one hundred and fourteen IQ. I believe how do they proceed with them and what are the results of question? Does he ask for a lawyer? What happens?
Well, you have to have to back up and look at this man's entire history. First of all, let me say that the police were looking for him in Columbus, but actually he at the time where he was in Albany, Georgia. He was down there dealing drugs and he was at a holiday inn. The all Many police arrested him on the on the night I believe my second or third and he was police from Columbus came down, picked him up, and we're taking him back to Columbus from Albany. Now,
Gary said, what have I been arrested for? Well, technically he was arrested because of the stealing the pistol in nineteen seventy seven. That was what his arrest warrants said. But the police, they didn't try to question him. They didn't do anything untoward, particularly after the Jerome Levis case. But Gary had a long history of trying to blame things on other people. Whenever he was called he would say, well, I was there, but I didn't do it, so and so did it. And there was a huge pattern of
this came into came to playing his trial. So he started talking to the police and says they ask him, well, you need an attorney. He says, no, I don't need an attorney. I'm just going to tell you the truth. And so when he starts telling the truth, he starts spinning tales, trying to to defer blame to someone else. I think Gary had no idea what evidence police were holding, where his fingerprints may or may not have been, or how
much they had own him. So they got back to Columbus and he insisted on taking the police out and showing them things. And he said, yeah, I was there in that house, but I was with someone who actually harmed the old ladies. His name was Malvin Alamichael Cridenden. And Mike Sellers, who was one of the officers there, said, you know, he might have called the guy Joe Blow or John Smith, but Malvin Alamichael Cridenden, he said, it's
a very realistic sounding name. And indeed, Malvin Criddenden was a friend of Carlton Gary's, and he was trying to dump in on his friend. And during the course of writing around that evening he showed them the houses of six of the seven murder victims. So he obviously had a lot of knowledge, and he told police things that no one else would have known that even the police had known. In some cases been describing the crime scenes.
But his idea was, yeah, I was there, you know, in case you got my fingerprints, that that accounts for that. But I didn't do it. Someone else did it, and that became an issue later that would sort of muddy the water during his trial. But Crendon actually testified later.
You write that eventually the grand jury invites indites him Gary in the Three Stocking Stranglers, and there's a photo of him smiling.
Right.
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Now, as I mentioned, he's liking the attention. You righte that he's liking the attention, and he is a really good suspect in the three Stocking stranglings by virtue of what he has said. Now enters his defense team and what they want to do with this case, what this case represents to them. Let's fast forward to the attempt at bringing him to trial.
Gary was arrested one die in and died is the next day in May nineteen ninety four, and it was thought that his trial would proceed in the near future at that point, right, But as it turned out, there were multiple delays on the part of his defense attorneys. He had several defense attorneys. This was a complicated bit of taiale. But make a long story short, a guy named Bud Seamen ended up doing being his primary defense attorney during the course of his trial, which would take place.
As I said in August nineteen eighty six, there were a number of motions, a number of efforts to get evidence thrown out. The allegations of the defense team was basically that number one, he was innocent. Number two, he was being mistreated by the police. Number three he was profiled because he was black and so forth. And so I think the real situation was that the defense team knew that prosecution had a good case and they were doing anything they could do in order to lessen the blow.
There's nothing wrong with the defense attorneys, that's their job, but it certainly put off on his trial for more
than two years after his arrest. I should say, I should comment that he was indicted only on three of the seven murders attributed to the stranger I asked Bill Smith, who was the prosecuting attorney, why he was indicted only on three of the seven cases, and the response, appropriately was they were the strongest cases we have and how many times do you need to convict someone of a capital crime?
You were talking about the trial seemingly going to go to be in February eighty six, but a couple of months before December twenty ninth, what do the jailers discover about Carlton Gary.
Gary tried to escape. He had cut a hole in the wall of his cell and had was hoped to get out. He had a history of escape from In fact, he had escaped from prison in New York to get back to Georgia that started the Strangler's murders, and had other similar attempts of escaping. And so there were a number of things that were done to delay or obstacate the case. One was there was whether or not he
should have a mental status exam. He acted out a little bit I think as a bress word and I'm trying to be objective about this, as that he might not be mentally fit. They sent him to the State Hospital, Central State Hospital in Milligeville, and when he was there, he apparently refused to cooperate, and so the idea that he might somehow be mentally impaired was dropped. That was
not there were other issues the defense still aged. But he should be understood that his appeals, based on the vast majority of the motions made by defense attorneys, ran the entire gamut of the American judicial system, from local to the U. Supreme Court on a total of four separate occasions.
And also what you talk about, it's not so uncommon, but this was unrelenting and real concerted at by these attorneys. They didn't believe in the death penalty. And that's what this case would potentially be, is that that they did a lot of filing motions. They did everything in their in their power to be able to file motions, to be able to delay this case as long as possible, and to try to have each judge and we went, having gone into this recused themselves from the case.
Well, you know, I think for most people that are not attorneys, and I'm not an attorney. If you think about it, you have someone who is a prosecuting attorney whose whose job and goal is to produce justice, that is to bring criminals to whatever the state finds is appropriate for them. And you have other people called defense attorneys whose job is to stop that process. They will we speak of legal technicalities, and we speak of things that were not done correctly by by one side of
the case or the other. The in the book, I say, the old adage of justice delayed is justice denied. I think that's a common legal adage, but it's the exact opposite of what happens if it looks like your client, if you're a defense attorney and you're a client has a pretty bad case against him, and you want to put things off as long as you can. And in
some ways it was successful. In fact, most of many of the people who would have testified a trial if it had taken place shortly after the murders were dead by the time these during the thirty two odd years of after this man's eventual trial and appeals that he had, so in other words, evidence gets older and older people's memories fades, the importance of the case seems less to jurors, and so forth, and soon it's what defense attorneys do.
Absolutely so, despite their efforts, eventually tell us how long it takes to eventually get to trial date. Some of the features at trial, and you say that the defense didn't have much of a presentation, not very long in comparison to the prosecution. Tell us about some of the goings on before we talk about what happens the verdict in that trial.
The trial eventually took place in August of nineteen eighty six, and during during that period of time it lasted approximate a month, including jury selection. The trial had been moved from Columbus Muscogee County to a nearby county. I'm sorry the trial the jurors had been chosen from a nearby county because of the possible issue of bias and the news media in Columbus, so people were brought in from
another county to hear the case. In Columbus, the trial was in many ways over There was overwhelming of evidence, circumstantial evidence and physical evidence against Gary, and much of the defense's case rested on asking someone to prove a negative and by that question is how do you know this this didn't happen, And if that had happened, then maybe there's another killer that we don't know about her,
maybe this or maybe that. But the case against Gary was quite strong based on circumstantial and physical evidence, and essentially nothing the defense said really changed many people's minds about it.
Gertrude Miller was one of the key witnesses at this trial as well, and you talk about the quick deliberation at the end of this.
Mss Miller was one of the witnesses who identified Gary. Would there was another lady who had also been living in the neighborhood who identified Gary, And I think you need to say that these were pretty definitive identifications in court.
But at the same time, the fact that eyewitness identifications are notoriously suspect, although in Miss Miller's case she had seen him close up and personal, as it were, the case eventually reached the jew the defense in the In the closing arguments, the defense tried to say that perhaps there had been police mouth mouthfeaslens, that perhaps there was another killer that we didn't know about, that the police
had not focused on. Jerome Levas, the unfortunate black man who was accused of the killings, was also was brought to trial, but his testimony was not particularly important in one way or the other opinion, and after and after a while, it didn't take. It took the jury about one hour to convict him of all three murders and rapes and burglaries with which he was charged. Now I should say that Georgia and the penalty phase of a capital a capital murder trial is separate. That is to say,
the jury makes the decision guilty versus not guilty. If it is a guilty verdict, and if he and if the state is seeking the death penalty, then a separate trial with the same jurors is held. And then this is when both sides can produce mitigating factors, mitigating factors and so forth. And so I know that a sense in this case referred to killing killing Gary rather than simply putting him to death. I think the use of words and the trial transcript is absolutely fascinating, and this
is a bit of an a side. In total, there were perhaps twenty thousand pages of trial transcript, and reading trial transcript is very much like reading a script for play. You know, you just you read the words. But I was fortunate enough to have a video of the trial, so I would read a dramatic section of the trial transcript and then I would turn on the video and watch it. That totally changed the experience. You know, you saw what people were saying, and you felt the emotion and their voice.
What we didn't talk about is in the trial that the what was deemed dismissible was similar behavior, all right, similar crimes in other jurisdictions, and so that was allowed to be read in and improved prior acts of burglary and rape and assault.
Well, explain that a little bit back off and not talking about Gary, but talking about the concept in general. Let's just say, for example, that someone is arrested for own trial for murder, and if the state were to come in and say, well, you know, this is a bad person anyway. You know, he's killed people in the past and gotten away with it, and he's stolen, he's been a robber and done this and that, and he's
generally a bad person. So the jury might get the impression, well, he's a bad person and we should treat him for all the evil things he's done. Right, Well, that's not fair to the defendant. In other words, if someone is own trial for a particular offense, they should be tried for that particular offense, not for something else they may or may not have done. At some point in the past. And that's an important legal concept in Georgia, at least
based on case law. If a crime for which one is own trial for fits a pattern of other crimes that the defendant can reasonably be thought to have committed, then the other crimes can be committed can be presented not to prove that the defendant is an evil person or does bad things, but rather to show that the trial crimes for which he's accused and untrump for are
part of a larger pattern. Okay, and that's that became an important important case law based on the Atlanta child murders cases of about the same of a few years earlier.
Right now you talk about that, then obviously there's the obvious automatic appeals or mandatory appeals, and then they can go allway all the way up to the Supreme Court after the state courts or those appeals have exhausted. So the same people essentially are involved in the defense or want to be involved in defense, explain, explain this and their fervor for to continue with this case.
Well, this was a death penalty case. And what I didn't say just now was that Gary was sentenced to death. And there are automatic appeals in Georgia and I think in most other jurisdictions in this country, for that kind of sentence. But you also have a group of people who are charged, the defense attorneys a charge with if not getting him completely off the hook, mitigating the sentence to which he's been given.
Right.
So the hope was they could get a new trial, and for example, as I said a moment ago, if if some of the witnesses are dead and no longer can testify, if the fervor to punish this man is somewhat cool down, then perhaps they can get the death sentence commuted to life without parole or even life with parole. This went on for a long period of time. The other thing, other factors here were there were people who there were people who were very aggressive death penalty death
penalty opponents. One. There were people who believe that Gary, because he was a black man, was treated wrongly simply on the basis of race, although there's no evidence at all that this occurred, and there were a lot of emotional factors that came into play. This caused his appeals to span a total of thirty two years before his eventual execution in March twenty eighteen right.
This this, this as an opportunity to stop for these messages. Now he was scheduled to die. It took that many years, but in the interim his lawyers fought tooth and nail to have that stay of proceedings, to have this overturned to but they were not successful. Tell us about the end of this saga.
In the end, Gary had, as I said, exhausted all of his appeals and totally in it. To repeat myself, this case went to the US Supreme Court on four separate occasions, and it exhausted the state and federal appeal system. And while the defense alleged multiple things, multiple things that the prosecution may have done wrong, or multiple bits of evidence it might change the sentence, none of these were validated, and he eventually was executed without much fanfare in marsh.
There are people now who still believe that he is innocent. If I can bring in a personal note here, I was doing a book signing the other day and I ran to someone who told me that she didn't need to read the book because she knew what the truth was. Sure, the implication, the inflication, whatever I wrote was not worth reading because she already knew the truth, and I said, that's fine, fascinating study and the human emotion and human belief and so forth.
When I mentioned the fervor of the defense team right to the very end, they did ask daringly for DNA evidence to see if they could get of any kind of change at whatsoever. It was granted. But there were some interesting developments with that DNA tech thing, wasn't there?
There was quite interesting, And the DNA testing was not done to two thousand and nine. And I'm sure your listeners who say, well, gee, you know, why did they
not do DNA testing in two thousand and nine? Sure they defense had had the opportunity and it had been offered to them, But according to prosecutors, I should say court to prosecutors, the defense attorneys had had the opportunity, and it had been offered to do DNA testing earlier on whatever evidence was available, and they had turned it down. And as one person said, the getting DNA testing done was a hail Mary pass. There was Pascal's wage of
what they had. They had nothing to lose and much to gain if if the DNA testing showed that he was in fact one of the Columbus strangler. Then he had already been convicted of that, but the possibility that it might somehow free him or somehow throw a wrench
into everything was worth trying. Well. Understand that the specimens that they were looking at were collected in the in late nineteen seventies, seventy seven and seventy eight, and here two thousand and nine, which thirty something forty years later. You know, the specimens were not of great quality. They had three specimens, one of which was not didn't have any didn't have any seamen in it. Apparently another specimen was another specimen of Mss Diamondstein, showed in fact that
Gary apparently had raped her. His DNA matched her the seamen vachelal secretions from her crime scene. But he was not charged with Miss Diamondstein's murder. She was one of the one that he was his murder who was not
charged with it. And then the third case was absolutely fascinating because in this case it showed that in Miss Sherman's case that there was a DNA from another man, and this is a lady who should not have She was a widow and her family had been there, and there should not be other male DNA in her specimens, and it turned out that the State Crime Level of
Georgia had made era. They had been using control DNA specimen WOW, which apparently had been contributed either by one of the husbands of the people that worked there or one of the workers. They are male workers, and it had their workspace had become contamidated and this showed up positive for him with this unknown DNA. This was eventually sorted out and led to a great revision and what the state crime Lab did, how they did their testing, but it was quite embarrassing to the Strike Crime Lab.
It looked for a while like like this there was another unknown person, but it turned out to be so they eventually sorted it out, to the great embarrassment of the state of Georgia.
Right, you talked about the media and its rule in this story, and you mentioned the lady that thought she knew everything about this case despite having not read your really definitive book about this case. Let's talk about David Rose because, as I found it very interesting, the being accepted with working with a law firm that was trying to defend Carlton Gary and then the publishing of this book and the sentiments that he espoused in this book as well.
Well, let me say that David Rose is an excellent writer. He's very good style, and I think he's a great writer in terms of technical skills. David Rose is also a death penalty opponent, and he came to interview Carlton Gary with the idea, with the idea that in the American South, a person of color, black man cannot get a fair trial, and that perhaps that Carlton Gary had been was innocent, and so forth and so on, and
he wrote a rather best selling book of this. It was published in two thousand and seven in both the United Kingdom and the United States, and the US it was sold under the name of the Big Eddy Club. And this was really the only supposedly definitive book on on this case. There are some others that have sort of touched on it, but nothing that really had no
serious work otherwise. Problem with Rose's book is not his style or anything, but the fact that he wrote the book in in order to demonstrate his belief that Gary was not culpable for some or all of what he was charged with. And when you write a book with an agenda as opposed to telling the truth, you end up giving large large amounts of what I don't think are particularly verifiable. The book has many examples of what I believe refer to his narrative fallacy and confirmation bias.
For example, he would say that's one of the judicial member's grandfather back in the eighteen sixties or the latter part of the nineteenth century had done something racist. Therefore the great grandson a great grandson must also be racist as well. This kind of thing. And since it's the only book written, it was, it's all people had to go on. And I hope this tried scrupulously to be non noncommittal in terms of making judgments in this book.
I've simply tried to report the facts. I will say one further thing about gross which I think is important. The first book came out in two thousand and seven, and an addition came out revised second edition came out in softcover in twenty ten. Now, in two thousand and seven, unrelated to anything in Columbus, cold case detectives in New York were following up on the death of a lady named Marian Fisher. She was a lady in her forties who was married, went out with her husband to celebrate
the anniversary. She and her husband got drinking. She got mad, walk said I'm going to walk home. He'd been drinking pretty heavily, went home and went to bed. The next day they found her body. She had been raped and murdered, strangled, and the husband was a prime suspect. He apparently knew been drinking enough to where he didn't remember part of the evening before. And so between nineteen seventy seven and two thousand and seven, all those years, those thirty odd years,
he was the suspect in his wife's death. But as one policeman said, there wasn't enough to really accuse him officially or convict him of it. Well, cocase detectives went back and looked at that, and lo and behold, they found Carlton Gary's DNA on the woman's on some evidence from the crime scene. And they actually interviewed Carlton Gary about it, and he said that he had gone out with a woman and had sex with her, but you know,
nothing like this happened. Okay, right, Well, this was a blockbuster of a thing because this is a guy who's on death row in Georgia, who's been strongly implicated and in a murder that occurred decades before, but during the same general timeframe, and the people in New York chose not to prosecute it because Gary was already on death row.
But the thing is that Rose, in updating his book, goes into great detail about what's been happening with Gary's appeals, but fails to mention the fact that he's been strongly implicated in another murder.
Sure interesting, very very interesting. In closing, you think a lot of people, but you especially think Detective Seller's daughter. I believe Sally Sellers was his wife. Life tell us about her contribution.
There are two people that worked on the case. One is Mike Seller's the other is Bill Smith, and I'll mention both of them. But whenever you look at something that's happened historically, you need to find people who were there, who could feel the emotion, you know, who actually saw it for themselves. Reading dry accounts is not adequate, and
Mike Seller's was one of the ones. He was the policeman who had much to do with discovering the missing pistol that led sorry following up on the missing pistol that led to Gary's arrest, and was also involved in as a as an investigator of the during the prosecution period,
he has an encyclopedic knowledge of what happened. The same thing I should say for Bill Smith that William J. Smith, the prosecutor in the case who later became his spirit court judge, he too has a encyclopedic knowledge and talking with them and asking them about the details and saying, explain this to me, how did this happen? It was
quite valuable. Mike Seller's wife had kept a wonderful scrap book which they shared with me, So there were a lot of papers and information that I used and write this book that I have to give her credit for.
Absolutely. I want to thank you so much for coming on and talking about the Columbus Stocking Strangler. William, is there a website that people might want to take a look at and tell us when this book is released? I had mentioned it before. Tell us a little bit how people might might find out about this book.
First of all, my website is my name with the www dot com before and after respectively. It's www dot William Rawlings w I l l I A m R A w l I nngs dot com that has lots information on this book and other books. Interestingly, on the website up at the top, there's a thing called Calton Gary Timeline. If you want to know Gary's complete criminal history. You can click on this and get some additional information that's not included in the book. The book can be
bought from your local bookseller. I always urge people to support your local bookstore. Yes, own the possibility that you don't live where there's a local bookstore. You can order it from any number of outlets, including on Barnes and Noble Amazon. There is a digital version available, and soon a couple of months there should be an audio version available. The official release date of the book is September sixth, However, it is available now in both digital and print versions.
It's out in hardcover, and at some point I think it'll prey in the distant future, it may come out in softcover as well.
Thank you so much, William Rawlings, the Columbus Stocking Strangler. You have a great evening. Thank you so much for this interview. Good night, Thank you Dan, thank you