THE CASTLETON MASSACRE-Sharon Anne Cook and Margaret Carson

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almost twenty years and then murder them. Through extensive oral histories, Cook and Carson painstakingly traced the causes of a femicide in which four women and two unborn babies were murdered over the course of one bloody evening. While they situate this murderous rampage in the literature on domestic abuse and mass murders. They also explore how the two traumatized child

survivors found their way back to health and happiness. Told through vivid first person accounts, this family memoir explores how a murderer was created. The book that we're featuring this evening is the Castleton Massacre Survivors' Stories of the Killin's Femicide with my special guests, authors Sharon Ann Cook and Margaret Carson. Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for this interview. Sharon Anna Cook and Margaret Carson, Thank you, thank you, thank you so much, and congratulations

on this incredibly personal and important book. Let's first talk. Sharon, you write the prologue, how you became involved, how you learned about this incredible case and these murders, and then tell us about the genesis of this book together the letters that were part of that tell us how this book evolved.

was orphaned by this massacre. She was raised by my parents in our family, and we began talking about this terrible event in her life and in Brian's life, her brother. The first day that she was with our family, we shared a bedroom, and so we would often talk about this before going to sleep at night, and I think very early on it occurred to both of us that we should write this down, we should somehow get this

into book form. But of course this was a traumatic event, and it was many years, almost sixty years before we did that because of the depth of sadness trauma that both children experienced. The second source for it was my son, who was an historian and a writer, and he felt very strongly that this was something that we needed to do at this point before anybody else died. In that most of the books was based on oral testimony oral history from either those who are participated or those who

were very close to the event. Through his urging and his wife's urging as well. We took this up as a kind of COVID project. Some of the work was done prior to COVID, but a lot of it occurred during COVID as well. So that's where the where the genesis came from. I would say, Peg, would you like to throw in on that?

would say women's shelters. Suddenly, as these words developed in recent years, we had words to use to describe what happened to us. And I don't think we had the proper words as children. We knew what had happened, but we couldn't put it into any kind of perspective. We were still dealing with the grief for decades. For decades, you don't give that up. And yes, speaking about it over those years helped to clarify and put into place the pieces of the puzzle that added up to us

somewhat understanding what happened within my family dynamics. And as you know Dan after reading this, it wasn't simply straightforward. It was complicated with many avenues, and it took a lot of discussion to get there. And guests, does that help Sharon.

lynch pin. She was present and participated in every major event that occurred in the lead up to the killings, and she therefore had a very important perspective, better I think than almost anyone else's. And she was trusted by both the perpetrator and by her mother, so that she was given a great deal of authority as a twelve year old child to try to bring peace to a situation when Robert was beating up her sister, for example, when Robert was threatening her mother. She was involved in

all of these. So I want to emphasize how important Margaret was, But I also it is important to remember how central to the period after both Margaret and Brian joined my family in nineteen sixty three, how important Brian was in the process. Brian became a medical doctor and so he has a very particular view of what happened from his adult perspective. He's now retired from that, but he is a very capable family doctor, and he looked at this from a perspective that neither Margaret nor I did.

His oral histories are arresting and in the moment as well, which is a pretty extraordinary thing sixty years afterwards for a child to be able to remember as accurately as he did the emotional import of events and also what he was thinking. This was true both during the mascer itself and in the period following that. So I do I want to underscore Brian's role and his support throughout

this process. He has not chosen to be a co author in it couldn't have done this project without Brian's involvement.

her life. He wasn't related to him. He was not her father, as is often thought and was often reported in the newspapers of the time. So Robert with his family, the family moved west and homesteaded, as many families did in that period, to get free land, to work that land, and then to sell it for a profit. And that

was exactly what his father did. His father continued doing that through the rest of his adult life, buying farms, improving the farms, selling them, very much as people do today in flipping houses, but in his case it was improving the land. So Robert had a typical farm based childhood. He was a talented child from the beginning, and he was really the star of the family. He was the child that his parents expected would change the world, and as a result, he came to think of himself as

changing the world. The mother definitely favored Robert over the other children, and we talk about this at considerable length because it helps to explain the shadow under which my own father, who was the youngest child in that family, lived As a child, he couldn't compete with his older brother,

and he didn't try to compete. He admired him tremendously and loved him dearly, And it helps to explain one of the main reasons why I became involved in the project myself, which was to help to explain to myself why my father reacted as he did to his older brother's massacre and was never able really to blame him for what he did. This hey, in this act the family prospered as homesteaders. It set them up for a solid middle class life once they were back in Ontario.

The older sister, Gladys, became a noted water colorist as she was an art teacher, maybe the worst teacher ever. She seems to have loathed children and the other teachers of whom she worked. Very frustrated woman, but a very talented woman. Robert was, about any doubt as well talented. He began university in nineteen twenty four. He won scholarships at university the almost He also almost failed out in

his first year, so he had some difficulty adapting. And the third child, my father, was also a talented student and also university educated, which is very unusual in the nineteen twenties and nineteen thirties, Margaret, do you want to add to that his background, the family orientation.

the time. I know that these that she did not know what she was getting into it, as is often the story, off in the case, and spent a few years i'm sure sorting it out as he failed at being a minister for the United Church and eventually quit that before she left him with their first child, their only child, and that would be Pearl, and he decided I think he decided to isolate her by moving her to homestead places, as was done when he was growing up,

the homestead idea of moving out west and finding land to develop. But he did isolate her at the time and cut her off from her family and friends. Again, that's a typical story, isn't it to have power over someone to isolate them. So back to Robert would say that he became obsessed first with my mother, and she

tried to get away from him for years. I don't know where his obsession came from, but I liken it to what what Sharon just said, his ability to have a kind of charisma over people, his brother, his sister, people that he met, and my mother, but it became a really negative, malevolent kind of charisma after a while, and that kind of power, you know, I was thinking

about this. I don't think that I have personally met another person and I'm over seventy in my life that compares to him with that kind of malevolent power and charisma. Have you shared.

And I'm struck by his difference given what you've just said there, Margaret, with regards to the fact that people were deeply impressed by he was a well spoken man. He was a well read man, as you would expect for somebody who had been to university. And he had

this dark charisma that you have described. He especially had that in the rural districts where he lived, where he chose to live, And the point you make about his isolating Florence, his young, very attractive young wife, is I think important to remember that he chose settings in which to live. First as a United Church minister, he lived in four different parishes, thrived in. None of them left

in the middle of the night. For most of them, spend his time arguing with people demanding more money in the depth of the Great Depression. So he lived there in rural settings, but then he chose rural settings also after he had left the ministry. The other thing that occurs to me from what you were just saying, is that we can trace some of his characteristics that I think make him common with other mass murderers right from those early years in university. He appears to have suffered

from depression for his entire adult life. We don't know why that was. We don't know what the sources of that. I mean, he was never assessed. You would never ask the United Church minister to be assessed for depression, but he acted as if he had been depressed. Part of this were the enormous, outsized expectations of this man that his mother and family had placed upon him, and other

people as well. But it had also to do with the fact that he made poor choices, and once he'd made one poor choice, he would make a whole series of other poor choices, and that of course resulted in a lot of frustration for him. He was a very frustrated person and that feeds depression, so we know that that was a characteristic as well. The isolation that he

exposed Florence to was characteristic for him as well. He was an isolated individual, and he was isolated, we think conscious in order to not have authorities checking the kinds of things that he was doing, the kinds of abuse that he was meeting out, especially to Florence and to Pearl. And part of it also was one of those self fulfilling prophecies that when you become a kind of strange person, you are isolated, not many people do want to interact

with you. And it was quite clear to us that he frightened people in a very similar way to what we now are reading about the Nova Scotia murderer killing the twenty two innocent people. This was a frightening man, and so was Robert a frightening them. So a number of the characteristics were quite common, and they were deeply rooted in his personal psyche, but also in the family

and dynamics. One point I would just make in passing that I think makes the book unusual is that we do a deep die into what that formative period in his life was like, this is rarely possible with mass murderers because most of those people have covered their tracks. They you don't know what things were like for them. We do know, and we know that his early years,

including his university years, were not years of privation. They were not years during which he had a good excuse for being depressed or for you know, being angry with people, his developing anger. It was his personal psychology that caused him the misery that he imposed on others and that he lived through himself. This was not a man whose family background would explain why he became a mass murderer.

her homework so that she made no mistakes. She could make no mistakes, So he was obsessed with Pearl. Looking back now, as a mother and I have children and grandchildren, I can't imagine what she was feeling throughout those years. To have her father, who she loved and she wanted to impress, and she wanted to make him happy, to have this pressure on her all the time, and we see what happened. She couldn't leave fast enough when she

became a teenager. We see what the result was that when she could assert her own power and an attempt to leave. I'm sure that with children you never stop wanting to get the approval of a parent, But for her, when she decided to date, her life just became a nightmare. It became a nightmare for her. And I can't explain his obsession with her, because I think that he transferred his obsession about my mother to his daughter and you asked the question. I think before or someone commented about

him living outside our door. Remember that this was a very well spoken man who could talk his way into anything.

way related to Robert. She was not his child. And one of the results was this of this was that Robert was seemingly quite comfortable with both Margaret and Brian, and probably eventually he would have been comfortable with Patsy too, had she been a little bit older. And that's one of the reasons that Margaret is such an important eye witness for almost everything that happened. Everything is significant that happened in the relationship with Robert during the murders, et cetera.

Because she and Brian, who were kind of a tag team, Margaret leading the leading the troop and Brian behind her and backing her up. The two of them were the great observers of this. They were children they were involved in a number of the fracases, but Robert at times seemed not to care what they thought about things. He would take them on trips with him. They were kind

of a buffer zone between himself and the world. And the result of that, as I say, is that you've got two now adults, senior citizens now who saw virtually everything that was going on, and who saw it more clearly, very likely than the participants did.

were academically successful. But I'm really looking back now and understanding as a grandmother, we were definitely used as ponds because the minute he had us post by, then he knew that our mother or our sister would also be post by. He would also ask us questions about what they were doing. So we were his inadvertent spies, if you want to put it that way.

their lives. Just to demonstrate how serious this guy's stalking and intimidation was.

is after A. D Hall had died. So Margaret's father, A. D. Hall was quite a bit older and he died of a heart attack heart disease in nineteen sixty two, the

year prior to the massacre. And when we talk about those factors that made the massacre not a certainty, but certainly pushed the record forward, a d. Hall's death was a very important marker, not just because it meant that Florence was now destitute and she had to go back to Robert in order to have food for her three still dependent children, but also the factor of ad Hall

having been a great peacemaker. He was a remarkable man, and I think if anything helped to hold off the massacre for those almost twenty years, yes, twenty years, it was Adie Hall's negotiating with him. And one of the points of negotiation, of course, was Robert's insistence that he would build a shack close to the family so that he could maintain his relationship with peerl.

see a doctor when he became ill. I'm sure that they understood how serious it was, but until he was carried out unconscious, he refused to get help. And Sharon, I'll let you take over what sure.

is that he was anti authoritarian. He did not believe that doctor's training gave them any special knowledge about him or his body, and so his first and he was that way generally with people who who were traditional authorities in the society that I think doesn't take too much to realize that he himself had lost his position of authority, and so he was prepared to level every other person who presented themselves as an authority. So he was a diabetic.

He was a serious diabetic. He had come by it genetically. His own mother had been a diabetic and had died of diabetes. In the end, Robert Party died from diabetes. It was certainly contributing factor. He refused because of his relationship with doctors that Margaret's just surveyed. He refused to regularly take insulin, and the result was a body that was just racked I'm sure with pain, but certainly difficulties

with his extremities, as is very common with diabetes. He got to the stage where he could not wear shoes. He could only wear slippers that were inside galoshes, and the galoshes had buckles on them that jingled as he walked. So this is somebody who was kind of musical as he walked around. He developed carbuncles, terrible boils on his body that he would force his estranged wife to dress. And he fell into a coma two junctures I believe right, Margaret,

and was hospitalized. He was expected to die, and he did not. While he was in hospital, his strange wife's parents were visiting, trying to help with the children, and they burned his shack to the ground, which further enraged him, and one would imagine what happened the result of that

was kind of permanent rage that he was in. It was beyond anger at that point for about the last year of his life, and that was the year during which the family was destitute because Ady Hall had died, was not in a position to leave anything to Florence because of the lack of their having not been married, and where the family came closer and closer into Robert's orbit.

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way to hire Now. Sharon and Margaret, we were talking about the last year leading up to this massacre in nineteen sixty three in May, what happens with this living conditions of Florence. She's dependent on Robert, but tell us about further developments in her relationship and what happens in that ensuing year to ramp up the tensions, at least in Robert's mind.

by Robert to get her away from him. But she had a boyfriend, and you know, she had a mind of her own, so she came back on her own and eloped and rebelled. This was her form of rebellion, and she became pregnant during that time. Soon after that, we didn't see her for a while because she lived

with her husband away from us. And during that time, some months later, my mother did meet someone who promised to protect us decided to move in to protect us during not He wasn't with us very long, but she'd been seeing him for a little while, and she became pregnant with his child, and my sister was pregnant. I think these two facts made some kind of impact on Robert where he was over the top with anger. I remember very loud fights where my mother would just be

asking him. He didn't come into our house on a regular basis. He would come in when we were there, I believe, to look around, but not while we were there and they were fighting. She asked him to leave her alone many times. And I think that when he lost control of her life, and when he lost control of Pearl's life and she moved, she and her husband moved close by because he offered them. He offered them a house, he offered them. I think he may have

offered a car if they moved close. And I'm sure that he was very persuasive, and they did move close. So that put him right in the middle of the two houses, Pearl on one side, our family on the other. And that led up to May second, nineteen sixty three. During those last few weeks of nineteen sixty three and the last part of that puzzle, my aunt latys Killins lived up north near Orangeville, if I have that right, and she and my mother were writing letters back and forth.

She came, she came to talk to my mother, and so she was in one of the empty cabins that was on the property for probably only one day. Came on May first, and then the tragedy happened on May second. That does that help.

had to end all of this. There was one other factor too that we have found fascinating as we've tracked this. At the inquest after Robert's death and the deaths of the family as well, the medical examiner found that Robert had a considerable amount of poison in his system. Strychnin. In particular, strychnan had been used traditionally by athletes when

they were attempting to better their time. It goes back to the time of ancient Greece, and Robert had read about this and knew that, or knew had the notion that small amounts of poison would give him added energy, so he was taking small amounts which eventually collected in the system, and it was a considerable amount. It was found after death, and this might very well have fired

his anger even further. It operates something like a steroid before it kills you, and he continued to do this and during the actual massacre, during which he showed a superhuman ability to keep on going, even after his part of his skull was carved in with a hammer that Tom Major wielded to try to protect the family, he

was still able to keep going. And some of that we are speculating was due to the fact that he had taken poison and while on the one hand it gave him energy, on the other hand, it fired his fury beyond where it already stood. So there were a number of factors that were short term that and I think the most important of those was his recognition that he was about to lose Florence to a physical move and also the three children she was going to take.

Of course, her children, but he was also about to lose Pearl, and it already lost her to a degree because she was about ready to give birth to her baby. She was going to be a new mother, and he would be increasingly out of the picture.

the letters? We never saw them, No one ever found them. If they found them, they burnt them. I'm not sure what happened to them. And I'm sure they were speaking about Robert's behavior, his erratic behavior, and the fear of him and what he was going to do. As in the book, it shows that there were four houses on the property, and it was quite a large piece of property. So I was running from one house to the other I would visit my older sister in one house and

help her with the dishes and have supper. Then i'd come back to my house, maybe grab a letter take it to Gladys, who was in a different house. So you have to think that these were houses based on I don't know what, maybe an acre of land, and that particular evening when I went back, I didn't know when I went into my bedroom after saying good night that the sound I heard was a gunshot. I don't think I realized that. I hear people who speak of

this now. I thought something dropped. I thought something very heavy had dropped, so I wasn't sure, but I did hear my mother scream, so I knew it wasn't good, and when I ran out, it was obvious to me that my mother had been shot. Even at the time I saw the guns and ran to my sister's for help. That was my first instinct, was to run and get help to my sister and her husband, and I wasn't

there too long. She comforted me and took me into the bedroom, where we sat for a long time until we heard speaking, and I recognized Robert's voice and knew he had come to that house. There was a bit of a blur in the next I don't know how long, maybe an hour, maybe two hours, and an awful lot of gunshots. And as it says in the book, I got myself under the bed, and who knows how long I was under there, And I'll just mention one thing.

At a certain point during that time, Robert fell within a foot of my face, his facing my face, and his eyes were open, and he was looking straight ahead. But he did not see me. He had tripped or he'd fallen. What I did see was the gun and his face. I don't think he registered that he was looking at anyone underneath that bed. I don't remember much after that for quite a while, and as Sharon says

in the book, perhaps i'd passed out. I don't know if that word was in my terminology at twelve years old, but I survived.

him and neither worked. They had worked once to kill Florence and to shoot Tom Major, but they didn't work a second time, and the result was that Tom Major used the only weapon he had at hand, which is a hammer, and it was though it was those hammer blows to Robert's head that eventually killed him, but it took until the next day. In the process, Brian was shot very close ranged by a shotgun and thought he

had been killed. There is a very moving account in the book from Brian as to what that feels like to be fired at short range as a child, and I will let him speak for that. Pearl was murdered and left in a closet. Peg did not know this at the time. Various other people ran for their lives, they didn't attempt to help. Where As I say, Tom Major is one of the heroes of this story. The second hero was Brian's teacher, Peter Miller, who lives in Toronto now has had a very successful life after his

first year of teaching. This is his first year of teaching in a little country school, and he came running to try to help as well, and he was the most seriously wounded of any It took him a year to recover from his wounds. He went back to teach show one more year, got a university degree, and then carried on with publishing and as I say, had a

good life. So there is heroism in this story. There is cowardice in the story, and there is a lot of blood and the result of that was, of course, to traumatize these two children to the point where they needed to and a good deal of time as they were growing into teenagers once they joined my family in Calgary.

And so the last third of the book addresses how they emerged from the fog, which is characteristic of trauma, that the sort of trauma they had experienced, into living a relatively normal life, happy life, and in the end, very productive lives. They both raised wonderful families and both have a bevy of grandchildren. Now, I think Peg is ahead of the game here in the grandchildren territory, but.

I had run away by that point to university in Edmonton, and so one of the other things that we look at is that the result was a reconstituted family. It became a second family to my parents with the two children, and these two quite senior people at that point they were what were they paid their well into their fifties. My father was looking at retirement and so it had

put that off a bit. But they ended up having a very warm relationship, and my parents lived to be old and they were just terribly proud of both Margaret and Brian as they came to visit them often and helped let's.

of techniques to be able to help these people. But you also talk about very interesting that decision was that your father, Sharon and mother decided to take Brian and Margaret into their home and then we're able to have an environment in which Margaret and Brian were able to heal. Tell us about this healing situation, this family unit reconstructed.

say you are strong enough to do this. So I think any child that has least one person to say to see in them their own strengths to carry on. Because for us the foundation was my mother and Ad us very much and they gave us that foundation. I know my mother was a strong person. I knew ad was a kind, calm, wonderful man. I had that foundation. You can't take that away through this kind of track. You can't take that foundation away. That wasn't stripped from us.

What was taken from us was we were silenced for a long time and writing this book, and so are the women silenced. But writing this book has I would say, given us back some kind of voice and control, even more so than we had in the last number of years. It's returning the control to us that was taken. And perhaps that's what femicide is is to silence women and

whoever stands in your way and to gain control. And maybe that was in board in us that we had that kind of strength to begin with, to overcome this. For the sake of the people that we lost, we wanted them to be proud of us. We wanted those my mother, my sisters, we wanted them to be proud of us. And even though we didn't verbalize that, I think that was always inside us that we have to represent them, we have to succeed, and we have to win.

family in Calgary. They were strong, sturdy, much loved children, and my parents recognize that that they had tremendous capacity, both of them, very bright, able to deal with a huge cultural change as well as a personal domestic change in coming to Calgary, so that this makes this situation different.

As you say, Margaret, every situation is different, But I think the classification is important for me that children who have been abused for their lives, who would experience something like this, are going to react very differently from the way that you and Brian reacted. Not having been abused, you had periods of fright of living close to Robert when he would engage you in one of his crazy

schemes and use you as forced labor, et cetera. But that's different, as you point out, from being an abused child. You weren't an abused child. You were part of a very loving family. So it provided you both with a strong basis and, as you say, confidence that you could you could move forward. From my parents point of view, you know they had no training in something like this. My mother was a nurse, but you'd never dealt with anything of this magnitude. My father was an animal nutritionist,

What did he know about any of this? The two of them kind of flailing around, but moving forward and with a strong sense that there was a terrible wrong that had to be righted and the only way it could be righted was by giving these children a chance, a new chance at a life.

There's so much that we understand of each other that we don't need to even say aloud.

had the same kind of temperament as Robert. They argued very and screamed at each other, and she didn't get along with very many people outside of her family as well, But Harold presented a completely different philosophy through his whole life in comparison, not cynical, optimistic, and that you write was even though he looked very much like Robert, which must have been very eerie that it was much It was presented as a much different family life than you

had ever grown up with the presence of Robert nearby.

the last born child. He was a slow poke as a little guy. He didn't impress his mother and maybe his father, I don't know. A relationship seems to have been warmer with his father, but he certainly did not impress his mother as having any ability of any sort, and in fact, he was more successful at university than

Robert was. But what it left him with was a strong sense of humility that no, maybe he wasn't hot stuff, and he was going to have to work very hard and get along with people in order to be successful in life. And that made the difference. That seems to

have made the difference. The other two seem to have been very correct me if I'm wrong in this peg, but a haughty haughty in the sense that they had both they both had a strong sense of their own superiority, and I think Harold had no sense of his own superiority at all. He thought of himself as mister inferiority, and the result was that he would he spent his

life bucking up everybody else. So as a child, my childhood and my brother's childhood, and then when Peggy, when Margaret and Brian came to join the family, all of us were. He spent time telling us how terrific we were, not how terrific he was, how terrific we were.

And that's the ultimate for me compliment and reward for sitting with Sharon telling her all of this information going through this is that one of my kids said to me, thank you for putting this into perspective. I kind of know who you are now, and I thought, that's amazing, that's amazing. But I also feel like I'm giving back the voice to my mother, my sister's, my aunt who completely disappeared out of existence, and the comments in the last year or two or three, is that, gosh, I'd

never heard about this tragedy. I didn't hear about this femicide. I didn't know that happened. We've heard that over and over again, meaning those people have been lost. And if you looked it up online you'd see Robert Killen's the perpetrator, but you would not read much about my mother and my sisters and my aunt and to bring them back, to understand them, and I've spoken to people who've known them, especially my older sister, has been That has been a

reward in and of itself. Also to have someone say to me, Gosh, I went to high school with your sister and this is what she was like. And that's also a reward for me. Sharon, I'll let you add to that well.

brother's heinous crime. I understand now much better. Why that was so, and I am grateful for that, But like you, I also have a broader societal result of having written this, and it is to have made it clearer to me the scourge that femicide still represent in our society. Yes, we think we've made tremendous progress. We've we've made some progress, for sure, but we are a long way from addressing

this reasonably as a society. As the Renfrew County in Quest just completed what ten days ago, shows that women who find themselves in this position, especially women in rural districts, are on their own. They're on their own and they live in terror. That is something we've we've got to correct. And the sixteen recommendations of that in quest I think

are well worth looking at. They're they're well considered, well considered, and we have a responsibility as a society to do something about the situation before it becomes another case of femicide where women are murdered. I guess I would. I would mention also in the press recently we've seen fair analysis about the Nova Scotia shooter, and I mentioned this earlier. The woman who was at the abused woman who was at the heart of that instance, held off a violent,

malicious man for nineteen years. Margaret's mother, Florence, held off a malicious, violent man for sixteen years. Yes, I have to say I find that amazing. That's just amazing. We think of these women as being victims. What they were was resilient and smart. Somehow they're able to get through a situation with somebody who has got a hair trigger temper and who is quite happy to murder people, and

they keep the show going for years and years. I think that's astonishing, And that is one thing that became clear to me in writing this, just what an achievement that was on the part of those women, and what an achievement it still is on the part of many other women who faced violence all the time in the domestic sphere. And not all of these women are murdered. They're living this life right now. They're holding off these people.

They may not get murdered, but think of how many women are doing this as we speak, holding these men off.

when it is officially going to be released. Tell us a little bit more about people might find out about this book.