THE BUNDY SECRETS-Kevin Sullivan

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host journalist and author Dan Zufanski. Good Evening. Within the pages of The Bundy Secrets, Hidden Files of America's worst serial Killer is a unique, never before published look at the investigations undertaken stop the depredations of America's most infamous serial killer, Ted Bundy. Presented here in an easy to follow chronology are the raw, unedited in most fascinating official case files as they appeared to the detectives from the

Pacific Northwest to the Rocky Mountains to Florida. Book three in Sullivan's The Bundy Trilogy, The Bundy Murders, A Comprehensive History. The first book in Sullivan's Comprehensive trilogy was a dramatic narrative of the killer's life, and book two, The Trail of Ted Bundy, Digging Up the Untold Stories, was dedicated

to recollections of various friend witnesses and detectives associated with Bundy. Now, The Bundy Secrets complete Sullivan's opus by presenting readers with adjust the facts, rendition of the formerly classified files of the manhunt, as well as contemporary interviews gathered by Sullivan from dozens of sources along Bundy's trail of terror. This is a must have for true crime students of Ted Bundy.

The book that we're featuring this evening is The Bundy Secrets, Hidden Files on America's Worst serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist and author Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for a green in this interview. Kevin Sullivan, Well, thank you Dan.

and put it all together now. And we also talked just before the program about what you've also included is one of the most fascinating parts of this is the long hidden story of Louise Cannon, who spoke with Bundy only a couple hours before he kidnapped and murdered Melissa Smith, which was about four blocks away. So tell us a little bit about the reason for or the difference between

what is the Bundy Secrets? What does it give those people that have never read anything about Bundy, but more importantly, the people that think they know everything about Bundy. What does Kevin Sullivan provide in the Bundy Secrets?

of new information in general. And that's the book that really put me on the map as a true crime writer. And so again that was I didn't think I would write anything else past that. And in twenty fifteen I decided to write a companion by him to that, and that book was called The Trail of Ted Bundy, Digging Up the Untold Stories. And in that book, I retraced Bundy's steps. I described the locations how they appear today.

I took photographs, and I also interviewed a lot of people that have never been interviewed before and got all that testimony in print, a lot of testimony from these Mormons friends in Utah, and so I thought again that that would be it. Now, what usually happens when I write a book, especially a book about Bundy, I have people contact me after the book is published. I mean they they come out from various directions. They're usually friends

of the victims. I don't think I've had anybody so much to contact me that was connected to Bundy, but I sure have had it happen a lot with friends of the victims. And so what happens is after the second book was published, I'm gaining all this new testimony. And I remember when I published a second book, the Trail of Ted Bundy. I put in that book various case files portions of case files that I thought would

be interesting to the reader. Now, what makes this last book in this trilogy so interesting is that the that the entire book is a republication of the case of many of the case files that I have found most the most important, and they are most of them are in their entirety. Now I had I had to pick and choose, because if you were to publish everything that's out there, the case files, you'd have a book with

like maybe ten thousand pages. But I have picked out that which is important, and I got to do something in the Bundy Secrets that I never thought I would be able to do. I remember researching for the Bundy Murders, all of these case files thousands, and my personal file is probably somewhere in about eight eight seven, eight thousand pages. It could be a little bit more of its probably, but probably the range. And reading this stuff, I thought, my gosh, I pick and choose from these various case

files to put in the book. I thought to myself, wouldn't it be nice if one day people could read these files like I'm having a chance to read them? To see all of this stuff that's in here that's interesting, really interesting, but you can't put everything in the book. And I thought, well, but that's never going to happen because the only way you can see something like this is to go into the archives and dig it out.

And you can do that if you want to, but you know, ninety nine nine percent of the population is never going to do that. So as I began to receive new testimony from people after my second you know Bundy book was published, I thought, I'm going to do something I never thought i'd be able to do. And I ask my publisher if they agree with it, I'm going to do it. I said, how about a book on the case files? The unedited 're aw case files,

but people can see what it's really like. And I knew what I would be presenting to them because these case files are exceedingly interesting. They like the idea. So that's what this book is, and people are going to be able to see stuff. I mean, actually, there's not another book like it on Bundy out there that shows the case files like this. And with that, I have a chapter at the end with all new, brand new testimony of various people who knew Bundy, or you know,

knew the victim so well worked on the case. So yeah, it's it's a really unique book. So as you put all three books together to make this trilogy, each one is a little bit different, but they all go together very well. And I, like I often say, after writing some six hundred plus pages in these three books, I'm fashed with Theodore. I may write an article one day about him somebody new comes up, but there won't be a fourth, you know, Bundy book anyway.

So you first start off with the Washington, Utah, and Colorado reports and a victim named Linda Ann Heally from Seattle, and you say that this abduction is unique, and so tell us why you think this is in the annals of true crime. What's the uniqueness of this and the strangeness and the tell us about this abduction that Bundy does. Tell us why you think it is so fascinating and unique as well?

here's the setup on that. There there were five like five co eds who had rented a room a home in Washington in the University district in Seattle on I think it's twelfth Street, and you know, it's just a

neighborhood house, a nice big house. And if you go up to the front of the house, you have to walk up some steps and and you know, you walk up two sets of steps, so it's it's steep, and they have a front door, or you work up, walk up the first set of steps and you can go around and there's a side door that's on the side

of the house that leads down to the basement. Well, Ted Burndy one night he went in there and he probably was following Linda and Healing and her friends from a place called Taste Tavern, which is a few blocks away on Roosevelt Avenue, and he probably followed them home. And he intimated to Stephen Michaud that after dark he tried the front door, saw that the handle was open,

and he but he did not go in. And here's what he did later that night, in the middle of the night, I guess Linda and Heally went to bed around one am something like that, and then the lady next to her drifted off around one on one thirty. They were separated in the basement by partition of plywood. There was two rooms down there. So what Blundy did, this is just astounding. This is the stuff of fiction, but it's true. He came down, He came through the

front door. He h most likely did. He went down to the basement steps, and he went in Linda Heey's room and he choked her into un consciousness. That's what he told Michael and the third person speaking of what that person probably did. He didn't beat her. She started to bleed, she started to have a nosebleed. It ran behind her, you know, oliver her nose and onto the sheet, you know, you know that was there. She was she was laying on her back, so he choked her into unconsciousness.

I don't know if she was sleeping in the nude, but he moved her off of the bed. He took the night, her little nighty off of her or whatever. Yeah, that's right, that's right, because she did that on but I don't think she had probably anything else on. But he took that off of her, that head blood on it, and he hung it up in the closet. He then made the bed, if you can imagine this, he made the bed. He grabbed like a book bag and he

put some clothes in it. And we don't know if he covered her up with a sheet or a blanket or anything. But what he did was he hauled her up the steps and he went out that side door. Now there's only two ways that you can go. You can go around the few feet for five feet and you turn right and you can go down those steep steps onto the street. Now, keep in mind of the

university district. There's street lights, there's kids. You know, it may not be a lot out at that time, but you never know who you're going to run into in a university district. So he takes either that way and puts in this car and leaves, or he has one other option. He can go to the back of the house if he parked his VW in the alleyway and he could put her in there. However, the alleyway is so narrow you almost effectively are blocking it. If you

do that, then you also run a risk with that. Also, you expose yourself to anybody looking out of the window on the other side of all that. So a normal abductor, you would think, would probably not do that that way. So he doesn't kill her there, but he takes her from there, throllows her into unconsciousness and takes her from there and zips her away, and nobody is the liser. Now to me, that's an exceedingly bold abduction. And nobody in the house woke up. Nobody heard a thing to

think of that. He took time to make the bed. Is that something that you would do or I would do if I was an abductor, I know I wouldn't do there. I would get out of there as quickly as I could. But nobody made the bed. She didn't even make her bed. That's what her housemate said, I, if that's what they said, she might do it on the weekend. But she got up so early to go to the radio station and do the ski report. She

had to be there like at six thirty am. So through the week she never made the bed and she'd hop on her bicycle in the morning and go. So that is the Linda Healy abduction. And as I say, I've never heard of anything quite like that.

a very long letter. Well to give people the back story, Planty liked him, you know, Bundy, and they worked on some political campaigns together. Now, Larry Vallshaw wasn't that impressed

with Bundy. And I tell the story and the Bundy murders of how Vashaw went rafting with Bundy and these girls and there were some other people there and Bundy it's like his personality changed and he did some things that to his date that you know, but to where he pushed her into she was in a little raft thing and he acted like he was going to cut the strings so she'd flowed away, and then he undid her top as a joke. Vallshaw didn't like what he saw out of Bundy, so his opinion of Bundy was

pretty low anyway. But be that as it may. When it turned out that they were looking at Bundy, uh, you know, as the ones who had done these things, it's surprised Vosho and Clancy. Clancy was off in he was actually in Europe was he was in Italy, and I say in the Bundy Murders that he was living there, but actually he wasn't. He was, and I correct that for actually this book. But he was actually there in Italy, he was visiting, and in two weeks after that he

was going to be in Pariss. But so Valshaw contacted him. What I found interesting, even though Clancy liked him, there's a portion in that where he talks about, you know, we don't want to think, like I'm going to paraphrase here that Bundy is this way, that he could be this fiend. But I mean they were considering it. Most people that knew Bundy wouldn't even consider that he could

be involved in that. But this conversation between Larry Vaushall and Tim Clancy, Clancy basically says to him, you know, I mean you could tell that he was considering it. Also, Clancy said something smart. He said, you know, keep this to yourself for now. Don't report on an alpar phrase again to the authorities, because you know they'll take anything I say now it's fact. And he was wanting to think about this for a while because he had just

received the letter. But it is a real interesting insight into how his friends had to come to terms with this. Now.

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and it came at different stages. And I remember Ross David David said, and I quote this in the Bundy Meurs, but that he said it was over a period of time when like circumstantial evidence just kept adding up and adding up and adding up, that we decided, yeah, this is the this is the killer of all these women in the Northwest. It's it's it's Bundy. And it was a real shock. And I remember one of his friends said, and I quote this fella in the book, but his

name is escaping me right now. He said, after Bundy, after this happened, he said, we had to reevaluate what we believed about even our own friends. And so you know, it shook these people up. But I thought that Tim Clancy letter back back back to Larry, which Larry then turned over to the authorities or mate. Yeah, that that that actually will Yeah, Larry would have had to have

done that. I thought it was very insightful. And there's a few things that Clancy says in that letter and the way he says them that are just very very interesting. So you can you can tell that he even then, even though it was new, he was given some real thought to the possibilities of Ted being being the killer of all these women. Just an interesting letter.

loved him. And you know, Ted was good to her for you know, the most part was good to her daughter, Tina, and you know they had a good relationship for a long time. But then you know, this other stuff started popping up. And when when Bundy became a sust even before he became a suspect with the police, so much people were pointing out to her the similarities of the one that they're looking for a guy in a Volkswagen, and the composite drawing kind of looked like her boyfriend.

Things started to change and list, and as this investigation grew, she would spend the rest of her time going back and forth, believing that he's not the one, believing that he is the one. Her heart was wanting to do the right thing. She wanted to help the authorities. If he was the one, she would feel guilty though if he did not, look what she's doing to the relationship.

And you know she is the one. If people are not really familiar with her, she's the one who wrote a book afterwards called The Phantom Prince, And it's a really interesting book.

and she moved there. She was married once and divorced ed, you know, her daughter with her first husband. But if I have, I think at least two of the deposition that they took of her, or the conversations that the detectives. I know, once Jerry Thompson and I think Ira Bile and another officer flew to Seattle and you know, we're talking to Liz, and they recorded it, and so there's a transcript in the book. But yeah, she'll pop up

quite a bit. But their story is quite interesting. They met in nineteen sixty nine at a Seattle tavern and from then on, you know, they you know, they were hitting it off and they were a couple. The guy understand though, from Bundy's perspective, as much as he didn't want to lose Liz as a girlfriend, he was never faithful to her. He used to keep other women sequestered from her, but he wasn't faithful for her. Evodeman state. Of course, he wasn't in uzual, and of course he

was also a murderer. But Ted's love for her, let us say, was not the same as her love for him. But it's an interesting side story. And so you know, I look at a person like Liz Kendall and her daughter and in a sense, there's just as much victims as other people. They just you know, they just had to kind of lass. But she's in there quite a bit.

the Seattle Crime Commission. Yeah, worked for Republican Party in Olympia, and then he started in nineteen seventy three, began law school at the University of Puget Sound as a night student, and he worked for the Department of Emergency Services in Olympia. So this is where there are a lot of people in this book that you've interviewed that no Ted Bundy from that and as you say, when they make their own realization epiphany that he is the person. But to say that he had a dual life as.

you know, the governorship. Okay. He he had friends in Seattle and throughout Whton State who really liked him and would have opened doors for him. So you have to look at it like he's going through the motions. And there may have been times when he really thought, I cover this in the Bundy murders, for example, I talk about this when on the night he Metlist. You know, there may have been times when he thought, you know, maybe I can go that way. But he had this

other stuff inside eating at him. And that's what makes you know he killed before nineteen seventy four. We don't know if he killed Amory Burr in nineteen sixty one, that he may have but he killed nineteen seventy three. He may have killed nineteen seven at nineteen sixty nine. Those are possibilities. But he admitted killing in probably one girl in seventy three, But nineteen seventy four was different.

When he did launch himself in the murder in January of nineteen seventy four, Bunday didn't make a public announcement, but what he was doing was forever dislodging himself from what was his normal world. He was getting rid of everything in his thought process that once held him to a life that could be considered normal. He started shirking his duties in the political realm. He was committing murder.

That's all he thought about. He only did enough after these murders started in seventy four to create a persona that he was still a normal person. But everything within Bundy during nineteen seventy four and beyond was just about murder. And you think about this. He knew his life was going to be solitary, it was going to be predatory. He was going to be like a lone wolf for a shark out there just hunting women to kill. That

was it. There wouldn't be a marriage there wouldn't be children, There wouldn't be sitting down at home with your family, wasn't watch on the nightly news. It's going to be predatory. And that's how he conducted his life. So something happened

in him when he totally let it all go. And again I cover this in the Bundy Murders, so you know you've got and I cover something in my first book where it talks about how he didn't show up to like a caucus and letting him Helen West had to take his place, and so he was letting these things go by the wayside. And I'm sure it's Campadres and fellow politicals in the Republican Party were not liking

that he was shirking off. But you know, he probably didn't come out and say, look, I'm just leaving it. He just started to pull back and other people started to notice. So yeah, it's an interesting life. And we don't know when that actual pivotal time came, but we do know, and I say this in my first book that you know, the end of nineteen seventy three for Bundy, you know, wasn't ending in that big of a hind ones.

But it's interesting that he took the dawn of nineteen seventy four January to launch himself into this world of murder. It was almost like a celebratory jester to himself that he was becoming something like new in that new year. And so whatever happened to him, it pushed him over completely the edge, and he was okay with it. And I also say things like, you know, there would be no exit ramps. He wouldn't need them. He was heading down this world of murder and that's all it was.

And if you look at his murder in Florida, I mean he was like I talk about the shark that moves through a lot of times sharks are solitary. They just moved through the ocean looking for food. Bundy by Florida was just moving through oceans of people. He was completely separated from family, friends, everything that he knew. All he was was moving through oceans of people. This was it like a shark looking for people to kill. That's what his life had been reduced as an extraordinary situation.

When you look at the life of a serial killer like this, how you go from I mean, I couldn't have named it this, okay. I didn't get to pick the title of the book. I even once thought about name it from highchair to electric chair, and just think of that now we want to think of a little kidding high chair being electric tuted one day in an electric chair. But this thing covers his life, my first book as the Bibraphy covers his life from start to finish.

And it's interesting to see, like it's right in front of you. It's just a big parade of it's what you know going by. But that's so pivotal when late nineteen seventy three and early nineteen seventy four, that's the line of demarcation that propelled Bunny, something that propelled him over into that realm of murder to where he'd never again come out of it, nor did he want to. It's fascinating to see. Actually.

named Marlon Vortman and his wife ship Mannis. They knew where they lived. They didn't think too highly of this Wortman guy, who was an attorney, but they had this mapel down. They knew his sister was named Linda. She was in Tacoma. He eveuld stay at his parents again, in the normalcy, he would stay at his parents John

and uwe Jesus placed sometimes. So you talk about this surveillance, So tell us more about what is entailed in that report on their surveillance and what you found the most interesting and unique and new in that those reports.

It's for he tied somebody up. And then later this is in August, and then later in the fall, you know, Jerry Thompson linked him to the abduction, the attempt of the abduction of Carol Doranch. So he was due to stand trial, and that trial, you know, he made bail after a period of time in the in the late fall of nineteen seventy five, and he had no restrictions

on travel. And so Jerry Thompson picked up the phone and called the folks in Bob, you know, Bob Keppel and his crew and let them know that Bundy has

no restrictions on travel. He's released on bail. He'll be standing trial for the attempt of the abduction of Carol doronch come like February of nineteen seventy six, and it was just just actually a few months and so they said, you know, we're letting you know this, okay, because of the women in your area and the Washington State people were already fully aware that he may come home, and they had been discussing things for quite some time doing they were doing a profile on Bundy with a couple

psychologists in Washington States, and they suggested that they needed to put a tale the police need to put a twenty four hour surveillance on Bundy and to keep pressure on him like that, not you know, to arrest him, but they need. This was a tale where they wanted him to know they were tailing him. They did not want him to not know, so that he would not be inclined to go and murder another woman. It would

almost like keeping him in check. And when I published my first book, I added a a little bit of these, uh of that time, you know, while he was home, just a little bit in the Bundy Murders. But I didn't. I didn't add it in its entirety like I do here. And uh, it's it's a fascinating look at it because when I'm reading it, you know, it's these cops are telling them where he stopped, what he did, how he

tried to get away. And if you remember, there's you know, Bundy once gave them the slip in the University of Washington. He had gone into a bathroom. They waited for him to come out of it, and uh there was a door leading out another way and they actually, you know, you know, gave him, gave this one cup of slip.

So I mean, it's just a fascinating. Look and uh uh you know this, These reports are so interesting because they tell where he went, and people that want to go back and track that stuff today, they can go back of these locations today and see where he gave him a slip or try to jog away from them, or where he you know, parked where he tried to block you know, one of the police officer's cars. So

it's interesting. And like I say, there there's no deep you know, you know, revelations as to murders or stuff like that like came out in my first book, but very very very interesting stuff. I mean when I'm reading this and over the years I have read these things and when lads it there, and I regret that people can't won't be able to see this stuff because they'll

never go in the archives. That was the thing that drove me to want to put all these in book for them because like how you felt, Dan when you were reading them, I'm sure you found that they were very interesting. That's the opinion of most people. They just it's fascinating just to see this stuff.

took him to the electric chair there. So let's talk about what I found very very interesting is the late great and Rule the obous stranger beside me so definitely a person it was more than intimately and extricably involved

with Ted Bundy. You include an interesting two hour and fifteen minute conversation that they have and tell us where what point and rule is that at this point, how much does she know about her friend Ted Bundy, and then tell us more about the two hour and fifteen minute meeting that they have what's included.

I think Bundy view Dan Rule and other people all about the same. And he was about using people. And so I don't know how much of a friend Bundy was to her, like I don't know how much of a friend Bundy was to anybody. But he used people, and especially he used women. So you know, But they had this meeting and that happened to coincide on the same day that Bundy and I covered this in the first book, had gone to the University of Wadington and

he got into an argument with some people. I think a couple of law students who ask him to leave, saying basically, you're not welcome here. So he left earlier, I think, and that may have happened. I had to go back and check my book. I think that squabble happened in the law library. I'm not sure, but it was something, because it's in the police report. And so he left earlier than he wanted to from from the university, and he met Anne Rule in a French restaurant in

downtown Seattle. Now Rule makes an interesting comment, she said, and I explained this in my book. She said that none must have been at a booth or something, and as Bloody sat there, he wouldn't look at her. He kept avoiding her eyes. Now she didn't come out and say, you're not looking at me, but she noticed it, and she wasn't a stupid woman, and she must have it must have looked like a hurry had something to hide.

So she may have had her doubts about Ted, but by and large, I think she tried to believe the best of him throughout the thing, and later she came to the realization that, of course he's guilty. And you know, Jerry Thompson told me. He had a couple conversations with her when when Ted was in jail in Utah, and he basically said this, Anne thinks that he's benefit Okay, and she called talked to me, you know you're you're

you're holding on to an innocent man. Well, I mean, Thompson knew he was guilty, and so you know, Andrew wasn't saying that to be saying it, so she obviously believed it. But that that out of Anne Rule is not that surprising because at that time a lot of people in Washington State believed that he was being framed, so that was pretty common. Later, as I say, everybody had their own epiphany, and it came for and Rule

as it did for everybody else. The thing of it is they came in different stages and at different times. And I don't know where she found I mean, she may have gotten all the way to Florida, Okay, I don't know. Somebody told me that they thought that's when she finally got it during the trials there, but I can't swear to it. But yeah, it was an interesting thing.

But you get the feeling when you read what she says about that meeting that you know, Ted spent the time obviously discussing himself, discussing what they were doing in Utah to him. You can just hear him now, you know, complaining about them and how badly he's been done. It would be the same old thing out of Bundy. However, she kept noticing he wouldn't look at her, and that is a telltale sign of somebody that's trying to hide something.

So I think Will picked up on that. So it must have been an interesting meeting, and I don't think she was aware of it. Bundy may have been at that point, probably was, but I don't know if he mentioned to her. But the cops were outside waiting on him. I mean, if they were, just they were tailing him constantly. Now, even with the constant tail, they would lose him sometimes.

And one thing that's interesting, and I can't remember the date, if it was December first of seventy five or k not, that may have been when they first were able to really start tagging Bundy. But he had gotten there actually in November, and for a couple of weeks they couldn't locate it, which must have been very, very frustrating to the investigators. But then they probably got a call from somebody and they were able to find out where he was and from then on it was like that twenty

four to seven deal. That's interesting.

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blue Apron dot com slash murder. You will love how good it feels and tastes to create incredible home cooked meals with Blue Apron. So don't wait. That's Blue Apron dot com slash murder. When we last left off, we were talking about the twenty four hour surveillance Kevin. What I found interesting again in this incredibly interesting and fascinating book is also you talk about a woman that was a potential Bundy victim and an encounter at Lake Samomash

or samomash Ish. Sorry about the pronunciation. Her name was dak Jackie Plishy. So tell us the woman that got away from Bundy and the rules that he used in that instant an incident.

a number of them. But lady who did uh that she? You know, I think at least two people saw his car parked in a certain area. He had done the lie that uh he needed he had cast or whatever on his arm, he had needed help getting his boat off, And then they'd go there and they'd say, oh, it's not here. He's always up at my parents' house in is the quaw. So you know, you know, most of the time, I'm sorry, I can't go on meeting somebody else.

Oh that's okay. He's real nice. But then of course he gets you know, uh, jans Ott in the morning to go with him, and he does the thing with her, keeps her alive, and then gets gets the other lady, Denise Natha later in the afternoon. But the Plisky report, and I think I'm pronouncing her name right. I quote I quote from her from that report in the first book, But there was some additional stuff in that too, where it talked about she had seen some progress with him

later on. A lot of these people were Some of these people came forth right away, and then some of the people that were at the lake that day came forth a number of months later. There was a guy named Jerry Snyder. He was a DEA agent. He wasn't interviewed well for a number of months. I can't remember how long, but it was a pretty long time. But he was able to tell the story and he had a good, good memory. But as far as the details with her, to be honest with you, I can't remember.

There's so many of them. I can't remember exactly which one she was.

By the time he got back to the park later that afternoon, and keep in mind, he had done whatever he wanted to do sexually with with with Janis Ott, but he had not yet killed her, and he had her secured somewhere and when he went back to the park. He had to have been exhausted. He was very tired. And I say in the book, I say that, you know, he was getting rebuffed from a lot of people.

couldn't go. I mean, if you look at how he treated the women in the morning who couldn't who couldn't help him, it was exceedingly nice. Even one would fall into his card and said, oh I can't do it. I wait on my hut. All of that's okay. I should have told you he drew a lot of that was almost completely absent from his afternoon things. If they just weren't going to do it. I mean, with one girl, he just walked off and said nothing. After he knew

he couldn't convinceal, he just walked off. So he was tired. And so right right after Plishki, he ran into Denise Vnslin who was coming out of the restroom, and that was probably about four twenty pm. And you know, her boyfriend and the other people she came with. And it's really sad is she had no plans to go there

that day. She actually got to call her and a boyfriend got a call from somebody, and it was like a spur of the moment thing and yeah, she just decided to go with him just to be nice, you know, and what that was it. So she became the second victim of that day. But that double look, that's another thing, a double abduction one in the war. That's another thing that stands out about Bundy. A double abduction from Lake Sammas.

About thousand people there that day, forty thousand people. One group was a police department there holding their own little picnic, and he just didn't care. He felt he could get away with it and he did amazing.

So he had met those Utah people and tried to kind of immerse himself in their life before he went to Seattle. But yeah, but they were following him there too, And and the surveillance in Utah really and really frustrated Bundy. And he was, you know, he he didn't know how to respond, and he would do things like he would take their picture, he would write down their license numbers, and he did some of that in Seattle, and it just you know, it had no meaning, had no meaning.

He came up to one guy in Seattle, one company, he said, are you are you are? Are you police or a citizen or what? I just I don't mind if the police following me, but but I don't want citizens following me. And the cops said, do you have any questions? Just tackle SPDC. He had a police department, and you know, so, yeah, it was interesting. So in fact, I fand the bunny murders. It's like he was like a killer underglass. It was very very frustrating with him.

It was almost like you know, they were doing their job. But it was a mind game too for Bundy because he didn't know how to handle it. And so yeah, yeah, it's it's it's very interesting. Life changed for him when he was brought out of the You got to remember he totally had gotten away with it in Washington State, and you know, he came to killing Utah, and when that became a hot bit of investigation like Washington, he

started killing in Colorado. Then I got hot over there and then he the night of all and then finally when he was brought to light. Everybody knew at once Bundy is their man, and they had this crime conference. Okay, and I say in my first book, I said, you know, these guys were, you know, telling all these facts. I say, something like as cold as an autopsy table. And you know, on these men had had learned about Bundy, they had learned about the case, and they just knew it like

you know, you know the back of their hands. They were still discovering stuff though, and so they had this I think they called it the inter Mountain Crime Conference, and they knew their best hope was is that he would be put away for a long time for the killing of Carol Doranch. And Utah originally was trying to charge him with not only the abduction of Carol Douranche

but the attempted murder. But they had to drop the attempted murder thing because there was no proof of that, although they all knew it even in the legal people said you have to drop and they all knew Bundy was going to kill her. So he got one to fifteen years in the Utah State prison, which they also all pointed them mount in prison. And you know, then from there it brought to Colorado, and you know, two

escapes then all to Florida. But his life became his life changed dramatically after his first arrest in August of seventy five, where they found his murder kit and they thought he was a burglar, but they knew that, they just knew he was something more. So that was very pivotal from that time forward, that arrest forward, Bundy was never out of the spotlight for very long. And so that's why he could never kill again, at least not

until they got to Florida. They did an excellent job of tailing him, and they couldn't always tail him, and you know, he would flip past them some. But I don't believe he come had any murders while he was being surveilled in Utah or or you know, anywhere else. So women were safe at that time, and then there would be three more that would die in Florida.

I've got this girl. Her name is Lynette Culver, and I only know a couple of things about herville And at this time I hadn't gotten the case bot yet, and I hadn't talked to the Idaho investigators. But Mike Fisher, the Colorado investigator, had told me that Bundy had drowned her in the bathtub. So I said, Bill, the only thing I know about this kid, she's twelve. I know her name and how Blundy killed her. He drowned her

in the bathtub. Well, Bill Hagmer had never heard that, and he was skeptical, you know that he was hearing this from me, and he said, well, you know, I have all respects in the world for that investigator, because he and Mike Fisher liked each other. He said, but I've never heard everything like that. And I said, on every confession that was ever made. And I said, and you know, so here's hag May, the expert telling me this. Who I'm at the time, a novice, just trying to

gather information and research and write the book. And I said, oh, I said, well, you know that's what I was told. But my mind was thinking, well, maybe this is wrong. But Bill said, look, if you find out something different, let me know. So from there I went back to Mike and I said, yeah, I got that from Russ's, you know, Renault, the Idaho investigator, So you need to call rd So I did, and Russ said, oh, that's

absolutely true, and I'll tell you how this happened. You know, we had an hour, Russ said, and I've got the trial, not the trial, I've got the transcript of that Idaho confession. They had one hour exactly to talk to Bunny about two murders, the murder of a hitchhiker that he killed on his way to Utah when he moved there, and

the killing of twelve year old that calver Well. In that back and forth, there's a lot they only have an hour, there's a lot of information going back and forth, and he was switching back from one murder to the next, and they asked, they asked how he killed her. He said, well, she she drowned, and then he said he had placed her in the in the in the river north of Pocatello. And so in their minds they're thinking, what she drowned

in the river. But after they left the prison, the Restauranto said that his co investigator, Randy Everett, he said, you know, Bundy never he never really clarified that and said how he drowned her? Could you go back in the prison and see And to Bundy's credit, he had told the investigators at the end of that hour while his attorney was there, while Bill Hagenman was there to look at I know an hour is an hour isn't

very long. It's not enough time. If you have any other additional questions, you know, contact me and I'll do everything I can to answer him. And you could tell he's being really genuine. So Bundy goes back, I mean, Everett goes back in the prison and and Randy asked to see Bundy. They say, okay. They take Randy Everett back to a room and they placed the minute and fifty and twenty minutes later, here comes Bundy. They sit down talk. There's no Hagmar there, there's no uh, Diana

Weener the attorney there, there's there's nobody uh. And Everet goes, uh, listen. He's mentioned that you uh drowned, that she drowned, but you never said how. He said, oh, I drowned in the bathtub, and uh. And then and then he admitted late afterwards having text with the rest of death because

he loves, you know, necrophilia. But I talked to Randy about that on the phone, and I said, and it turned out that Randy never asked whether she was taking a bath like a volition, or perhaps maybe she was strangled unconscious and then put in there and dround. We don't know all the mechanics of that, but he said. But Bundy said, oh, yeah, I drowned in the bathtub. So he was really forthright about how he did it.

So keep in mind Bill Hagmer doesn't know this. So I emailed Bill that I had found out the truth and yes, and I got this directly from Randy Everett and here's why why he didn't know it. And so I published that a portion of that email in my second book, Portrayal of Ted Bundy, So I really broke

the story on that. But it wasn't just the murder of at Culver, but I also was able to determine the type of hunting Bundy did well and in Pocatello he was there for a couple of days, and why he wasn't one of the reasons why, maybe the main reason why he was not able to get any college women to go with him. And I found out from the weather your old there's a police report of the weather at that time that it was cold that, as I say in the book, winter was refused into relinquishing

its grip. There were snow showers and it was cold in the city on both days he was there. So you can just imagine Monday trying to get women to stop and talk to him. They're just not going to do it. And so the next day he gets a little you know of that culver from from from the junior high or middle school, Uh, you know Alameda And

it's a straight shot. You take it right out of the hotel, which is today it's a clarion, but there was a holiday n you go on pull Hootello Creek Road and you hit it runs into West Alameda and turns into East, turns into East Alameda and turns into Wet Alameda, and then you hit the school. So he just stumbled on this school when they were I'm out

for lunch and got this girl. Okay. So I got the full story from Russ Renault, the I got the transcript, I got the police reports, and so it was published in the Bundy Merch. Then when I was doing this, I was aware I didn't comment on this in the Bundye meurse. I didn't. I didn't feel any reason to comment on it. But there was this ridiculous urban legend that she was actually not picked up at the school.

She may have gotten on a bus, she may have walked to another high school several blocks away, and people were believing all this. So I called up, you know, Russ Russ Renault about this and he said, oh, there's no truth to that. Bundy got her right at the school. And so I go on and I tell that story, and that was that was when I had completely destroyed that myth that people had believed. And then I touched on the fact of how all often these things happen,

and if you look at the Bundy case. If you look at all the women Bundy killed, there were so many reports of most of these women being seen in other locations. People swear they saw them hitchhiking on a ferry somewhere else. And all of them were I won't call them live, I'll call them mistakes. And it's a total waste of policeman power. They have to check them

all out, and all of these proclamations, you know. And the same thing with let at Gover was she boarded a bus that's already hitch hiking, she was walking through another school. None of it was true. So that was another myth that I kind of busted there. And then of course, you know, but it's an interesting story. But then again, the Gover case is one of the cases that I really presented in print in its totality for the first time.

to Tallahassee. And for a number of days while he was there, he's getting settled in there. He's stealing and he's doing everything. He's a master thief, right, credit cards, whatever, Turn your back for one moment he's going to steal something, but then they need to kill. Start coming up again. And when he killed in Florida, it was different, very different. Themo completely changed. When he started killing in Florida. He was no longer the suave predator, the one that drew

women to him. He was actually repelling women. He had these vibes coming out of him. These people said his eyes were strange. He couldn't get people to dance with him at the disco charades because of how weird he was. Sometimes he was physically dirty and unkempt. He was just

he was disintegrating as a killer. But when it came to the murders at Kyle Omega, I say in the book, in my first book, that he couldn't get the conscious women at the Disco Tech right across the street to follow him to their dead so he went in at back backed the unconscious women at Kyle Omega, and that's where he killed Lisa Levi and Margaret Moment. But what was different about these murders is it was a frenzy.

He had taken these logs and beaten them broken, and he broke the jaws of two other women who lived, seriously injured them. And it was an absolute frenzy. Was nothing like these other murders, no planning, no wanting to take away, to take his time, and in an annalystic frenzy, he even bit the butt of one of the girls, one of the dead girls, I think it was the Leievy girl. And then you know they would use that against him. As and that was just an animalistic thing

he had. He didn't think that out. But he had these bad teeth. They were very easy to duplicate. You know, you can look at his teeth. It's not like they were perfect. You got the perfect teeth. His teeth were really screwed up in ways that were very I mean they had a pattern to him, but very very odd, very animalistic, a frenzy. Now what's interesting is you would think after he left Kyle Omega that night, which was, as I recall, close to three am, he'd go home. No,

he wasn't satiated at all. He walks a few more blocks to Dunwoody. The place has gone now, but I've been on Dunwoody and there was a duplex, and I think, no doubt he had probably spied on this woman before. But Cheryl Thomas was was that was her place, and next next to her it's it looks like one alse but next to her Debbie Ciccarelli. And what Bundy did was he got through a window and came through and he attacked her. What Ciccarelli heard somebody stomping around in there,

her crying, heard like moaning. So she starts calling out to her, pounding on the wall, uh you know, making a racket, calling her phone well Bundy. He had every intention of strangling her from behind while he had intercourse with her, which was a pretty normal m for him, and murdering her while he's having sex with her, but he couldn't do that. This Debbie Ciccarelli was making too much noise, so he masturbated and left uh seamen on the bed after he had beaten her to a faulp Well,

I forgot this. He carried the same log from Kyle Omega the Dunwoody apartment and an Asian fella named Sagoon happened to see him walking trying to conceal something, and he was really drawing attention to himself, and Sagoon slowed down and looked at him how he was dressed, saw him trying to conceal something that was a log, and he used that log and beat her with it. But then he couldn't kill her, and he goes back out the window from which he came from. You know that

that's how he got in. But Debbie absolutely saved her life because without all that going on, and you know, she called the police too, and the police were got ready to bust down the door, and she said, wait, I've got a key to her apartment, and so she let them in. And in the in my first book, I've got all the testimonies from the cops that showed up there and everything, and she was severe injured, but

she lived. But she you know, all of these women, I mean some of these women sustained injuries that they never did get over, hearing loss, balanced problems and various things like that, but they lived. But you know from that that I guess satiated that after you know, two different attacks, he goes on back to his his you know, rooming house and again as the college district is, i

mean kids her up. There's a lot of people up in his house, and he's he's so changed that a couple people, Henry Palombo and another person say something to him as he's passing them to go into their house. Bundy doesn't even respond, which is very unbundy like, because Bundy could pull on the charm. But Bundy's a very very changed killer and a changed man. And then you've got the same kind of bizarre stuff that happens with his last murder in Lake City, with the you know,

you know, the murder of Kimberly Leech. So he's a different kind of killer. He was having his own kind of internal, you know, meltdown. He was just not the same killer that he was back in nineteen seventy four, seventy five in the Northwest and even in Utah and Colorado.

or maybe the van. I mean they weren't sure. Now I knew there was some blood in the van, I didn't think there was enough at least on the record that you could say she was murdered there, But I remember I came to determine the determination of writing the book that it's kind of like, I'm not sure, but I'm going to lean this way. She was killed in

the hogshed. When they found her body, she was you could tell that she was placed a certain way that the medical examiner thought that Bundy was inside the hogshead with her having sex, and that's where he ultimately cover her throat with that knife. Now he made fantecks with her in the van too and began to cover her there as well. I don't know, but there is some

blood there, so that that wouldn't surprise me. So these people are contacting me, and I'm thinking, well, you know, maybe they found something that I don't know, and that's the way it is. I mean, I don't care how it is. I'd rather know the truth and if it changes and it's not there, I'd like to know it. But then when I mean, you know, because you don't know, they could have found somebody that might have determined it.

But I thought, until I see something, I'm not going to just change my opinion of what I wrote the first time. So when I was doing the getting all these case files out, again, and doing all this, I ran into stuff from both the medical examiner examiner and from Bob Beckel, who prosecuted Bundy. They're giving testimony that's about two months after the van was located, so you know they've already gone through the van, you know, up and down one way and the other, and they know

everything they need to know forensically about the van. But the medical examiner was leaning towards that she was killed right there, like under the hog shed, and Deckel says at that point she said, well, we don't know. I mean, we've got some theories on it, but we don't know. So I thought, well, see, that's part of the reason why I came to that conclusion. So I say in the new book, The Bundy Theorist, it won't bother me at all if they discover something tomorrow that states she

was categorically killed in the van. But who ever seeing that now, I don't know. I mean, I just am looking at the evidence I had, and so I'm just not convinced it would take something more than what I've heard to convince me and to change my opinion. So I did bring that out, and I also brought out if you'll notice there was I'm not going to say who it is. He knows who who he is, but

did you like the department. I talked about this that occasionally people will talk about me making stuff up for the book and adding stuff to it, and I say, they're always wrong. They just usually don't know the case as well as I do because of all the search

I've done. I had one person who was contacting me who was working on a Bundie project, and there was a thing where, you know, I say in one passage when Bundy contacted Liz within about forty five minutes of abducting Debbie Kant, so she's not dead yet, but she's

probably unconscious in his car. I said, he did that to step back from the crevass of insanity, okay, and because of something that she had said in the case file about that, And so this person took issue with that, and this person told them it was only about the alibis well in the alibi could be part of it, but it's certainly not going to be the main thing. It's going to be this. But I couldn't remember we're

in the case file where I got that from. So I answered it with something else that would also prove my point, but not quite as well as wherever the case bot. So when I'm doing this book, I run into it and I find it. Okay, I find it. And so that's basically what Liz said to Bundy. Is this the reason why you do it? Like you know? And yeah, he all but agreed with her. But this person had said that I make I say his word, not not. He said, you know that I make shit

up as I go along. Well, I don't never do that. I've never done that. And at those times when I do speculate, I make sure I know what I'm talking about. Just like when I was writing about Lorraine Fargo meeting Kathy Parks on the campus of Oregon State University late at night, only thirty minutes before Kathy disappeared, and I stay in the Bundy merse without ever having talked to Lorraine that I said, you know, Bundy, who want you know? Was hunting libraries And it says in the record that

Lorraine had come from the library. Maybe Bundy was originally following her, we don't know. And I said, also, there's a letter that that that that uh, that Kathy Parks mailed to her boyfriend which has a postmark day of May seventh, and this is May sixth, on the night that she that she disappeared. I said, I don't know, but it may be that that was mailed at the at the same time post at the same time, maybe like you know, right then, I mean that night or however,

however I put it in in The Bundy Meurs. But those are speculations based on kind of you know, what I know about Bundy and things like that and how things work, and maybe she mailed thing. So I thought, well, that's the speculation. Turns out Fargo contacted me within a few months after I book The Bunny Meurs was published, and she and I had many talks and she said, yeah, well, somebody was following me in the library and this is

all in the Trail of Dead Bundy. And she said, he kept, you know, he kept bothering me, sit beside me, and when I left the library, he trailed me out, okay, and she's tried to avoid him. That was probably Bundy. And when we talked about the letter, because they stood like fifty feet across a street from the Memorial Union Commons where Kathy went in, they were right there on the the other side of the little side street. When we talked about the letter, she said, oh yeah, she

had that letter in her hand. And so when we said goodbye, I watched her walk across the street, puts in the mailbox and go into the Memorial Union Commons. So I speculate on something, I'm going to do it for a reason of prompt and I when people have said that about me. I remember I mentioned in the preface of of of the Bundy murders, I said, when I do speculators, so it'll be based on things that Bundy has said in the third person of what things, how he might have felt, how this person felt, or

what this person did. So that's the thing about when you're writing nonfiction, you really, really, really really got to know yourself. You've got to know your case file. And this person that you know was trying to rick me over the coals. I plat told this individual, you don't there's a lot about this case you don't know, and that's a fact. So but in any event, but yeah, it's it's interesting. So I do put a couple of those things in there to kind of clear the record.

I also put in there a couple of places where I made like minor mistakes, like the girl that that the the girl that the kid that he killed. He picked up the idol hitchhiker for some reason, I had said that Bundy had said she probably came from like Wyoming, but it's really Montana. I don't know how I got that messed up. But you know it was just like a little couple of me, you know, corrections I make.

And that's that's good to do. You see something tiny that you messed up, if you have the chance to correct it, do so. But I do go into a couple of things that had been brought to me that I knew I was right about, and so I did comment on those in the Bundy Secrets, because then it'll stand as a record. And it's all through.

how I hurt you live. So now in this you have some incredible stuff that he talks about, his desires, his need to kill, tell us about the four weeks let you go tonight.

and tried to break it and he just couldn't. So he even though he was being guarded, even with Liz, at that moment, he's basically confessing. He's basically confessing that yes, all this is true, and you know it's just he's just saying, yeah, that's true, but he doesn't want to come out and say it. It kind of reminds me of when Bob Keppel. He's confessing to Bob Keppel about the George Nhawkins murder and he is talking about it, but then he becomes uncomfortable when Keppel asks him, well,

what did you do? You stayed with her all night, so what did you do with her? Say, from the hours of one am to five am when you left? He said, well, you know, I'll have to get back to you on that or something like that. He became uncomfortable. Of course, what he was doing during that time was necrophilia and severing her head and whatever diabolical things he was doing. But when it came to the mechanics of the abduction, very forthright, and what he did miss indeed.

But when it came to the diabolical things sometimes that he did, he would want to, you know, stay away from those, and he wouldn't lie. He would just say, well, maybe I can talk about that later. I can't do it now. And so yeah, very eye Opening's that conversation with with with Live where he's basically confessing to her and calls himself sick, a sickness, and it's about the close he could come to admitting that to her.

talking about the Bundee Secrets. For those people that might want to do. You have a Facebook page for this website, tell us a little bit more about Wildboat Press on where people might find out more information about this and the other two books in the trilogy.

Crown Blogs. They also have links to all of my books, not just the ones that they published, but the ones that other publishers have published, and they have links from there to Amazon, And like I say, I have people that comment and I can get back with them that way. So yeah, the best I can do is to Wild Blue Press or Facebook.