THE BUNDY MURDERS-Part 2-Kevin M. Sullivan

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journalist and author Dan Zufanski, Good Evening. In this revised, updated, and expanded edition, the author explores the life of Theodore Bundy, one of the more infamous and flamboyant American serial killers on record. Bundy's story is a complex mix of psychopathology, criminal investigation, and the US legal system. This in depth examination of Bundy's life and his killing spree that total dozens of victims is drawn from legal transcripts, correspondence, and

interviews with detectives and prosecutors. Using these sources, new information about several murders is unveiled. The biography follows Bundy from his broken family background to his execution in the electric chair. The book they were featuring this evening is The Bundy Murders, A Comprehensive History, second edition and Part two of my interview Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program, and thank you very much for this interview Part two. Kevin Sullivan.

September third. When I was doing the ABC doc, I actually said that he left on September third. I meant to say September second, rived on September third, but I had a glitch there or something. But my book was the first to come out that he left on the second and what he did was and since my book came out and I put this in the second edition,

but there is a really interesting picture. The picture is not in my book, but there was a picture that Mary Lynchino took a Bundy on the morning that he left. And what happened that morning, and I write about this aspect in the book. Liz called her Angie friend, but it's really Mary Lynn Chino or Chino, and they had breakfast or kind of like a brunch on her boat in Seattle, and Bundy was already packed and ready to go, and he stood there at his car and she snapped

a picture of him. And it doesn't include Liz or anyone, it's just Bundy. And what's interesting about the photograph is that Bundy is dressed in white shorts and white socks and the tennis shoes and like a polo shirt, and he looked almost identical to how he had dressed on the morning of July fourteenth of nineteen seventy four when he went to like some amish where he successfully abduct the two woman, one in the morning and one at night. And that picture has purpose in the last couple of years.

And so I didn't get to include the picture because of course it's copywriter with with with her and I but I but actually wrote about it and I added that to the book. And it's a really you want to call it a molmost like an iconic photograph. But then about twelve hours of that picture being taken, he was murdered of the Idaho hitchhiker. And what happened is

he had one at the end. Bundy said, first of all, he called Liz from Nampa, Idaho, and Nampa is a place that they had stopped at before, and so it might have sparked some fun, you know, memories on them. And he called he called lives from there and spoke to her. Within thirty minutes. He was on maybe twenty two twenty five minutes. He was on the outskirts of

Boise and he noticed the girl hitch hiking. She was on the on ramp and of the freeway and he had already gotten into a place where there were a lot of you know, houses in view, and so he picked her up. He stopped for gas in Boise. I got to tell you this too. This a guy on social media. He contacted me. It's this craziest thing in the world. I don't know what happened to this guy,

but he had no one countered with Ted Buddy. He told two different completely stories about him seeing Ted Bundy and Boise and how he's saw Ted Bundy attack the woman. And then he stood there and had a ten minute conversation with Buddy. Absolute madness. If anybody hears that out there, this guy is just it's not true. I just wanted to say that because he's trying to make a name

for himself now. In any event, he picked her up, he went to Boise, got gas, and as he was traveling on in a southeasterly direction throughout the nighttime hours on I eighty four, he kept her. I guess about maybe three or four hours and they talked, but he kept looking and spotting the river like off to his left,

I guess it was. And and he pulled off on these and I've driven you know, this route from I eighty four'ts just nothing but freeway now, but back in bun these days it was partially freeway, and then it would be the old highway, and then it would get back on and then it was starting to get as the freeway. And so he pulled off there, you know, And and at some point he whacked her in the head and he dragged her body to where he had parked.

He identifies it as being near again. I think there was a real world trestle by there, but he probably was able to pull up really close to the river, and he, uh, he murdered her. You know, I had had to have you know, necrophilia with the corpse and maybe sections he was strangling her, but anybody killed her. He dumped her naked body in the river, rid of her clothes, and so you know, that's just that's basically

what he did. Now, he would take he wouldn't get to Utah into his apartment at bout six five Fir Avenue, which by the way Liz had found for him, but he wouldn't get there, probably between maybe four and five am. And I say in the book that while the rest of the city was sleeping, that the malignancy was setting

up shop. And of course that's basically what it was, because as Bundy got into Salt Lake, he was there to just tell the audience to start law school, and it was early September and he should have started immediately, And instead of that, he would spend the next semester probably only attending about three times, and he spent the

rest of the time hunting and murdering women. So he had to go to Utah because the he had made Washington State too much of a hotbed of investigating activity, and he knew if he was going to continue to kill women, he would look he would have to look for a new place. By this time, there was absolutely no sense in Monday that he was going to complete law school. It was merely a cover for what he

was doing. So anyway, and he would knuckle down until after January and spend more time in law school, but he wouldn't stop his killing even then. But so it was a progression. The murders began in Workington State, and they transferred to Utah. And so in September of nineteen seventy four he arrived there. He would come back to Utah. He could only move so many things, he would journey back to Utah. Yeah, I guess he flew back because he went home to pick up his truck that he

had there. And he had he had purchased this truck apparently from a friend of his name Alon Boortman, who was an attorney in Seattle. And he got his brother Glynn to help him load this truck, and Glynn and he drove back to Utah and unloaded it, and then that truck stayed there, even though he had a VW that truck stayed there, and then Glenn flew back. So I think he got back September eighteenth. I believe to check my book to do this loading. I mean, he may have been there a day or two, and then

he came back to Utah. And I say in the book that although Buddy was a real planner of murder, and he would watch women. He would pick who he wanted to abduct or the area he was one of abduct. He's watched the patterns of women's movements and things like that, where the best parked your car so it wouldn't be seen how far you'd have to walk with the woman as she walked to the car. It's the best way to do it so that less people might notice you.

So he was a planner of murder, but at the same time he was also opportunistic and he would pick up and go hitchhikers. So I say in the book that it must have been back then there was a lot of young girls and you know, young women hitchhiking.

It was just big all over the country and not so much today, but it was all he just you would see it all the time back then anyway, So I say the book that it must have really bothered him as they passed women who would whiggle their delicate thumbs, I think, I said, and you know, they just had to go by them. But if Buddy were alone, he was taken the opportunity, even in the midst of a move to commit murder. But he was stricter because of Gwynn's presence.

they could learn from that crime scene itself. Meanwhile, like you say, Bundy was on the trip moving back and forth, and then September twelfth and November he started his killing spree there. Yeah, so let's talk about what they found at this crime scene here.

of Denise Naslin and janis odd. If you look on a map, there is a it's a perfect area to dump bodies, but there is a freeway and then there's a you can take an exit and get on what is known as the Old Sunset Highway, and that'll lead you up and then from that direction you can go up to where you can start rising on the hillside

on what was a logging road. And Bundy knew these areas so extremely well, and so what he did was and now we don't know whether he this is where he kept them, because he told Haymar later that ef he got Janis out in the morning, he kept her alive and then did whatever he does with his victims, and that later the afternoon, in the afternoon he got Denise Nanslin around four twenty Janis was and then murdered one in front of the other. And that was all

for psychological torture. Now they were found. They know where these women were found, along with a third set of remains that turned out to be george An Hawkins. But there was no skull found of Janis hot and there was no skull of George Ahna Hawkins found. But authorities aren't sure. He might have had them right there in the same area and killed them, or that could be

where he dumped them. In any event, these grouse hunters happened to find some human remains, and they went back to their car, and they they also ran into some kid, a couple of young fellas I think when was nineteen, Jeffrey Hartsfield, I believe it was his name, and they were just doing some you know, shooting, just some plinking.

They weren't hunting or anything. And they got in a conversation and the one fella, and I think it was Elsa Rankin, said, you know, there's human remains up there, and the boys didn't think so at all, and they were kind of making a joke about it. So but these hunters knew they had spotted remains, they knew they had spotted bones. But as they were walking back up, they spotted something that they had missed, and it was the detached air of Denise Nathlon and her hair was

jet black and shiny. So here it is a crime scene. And of course nobody was laughing anymore after this, after this spot of the hair, and in fact, near near the hair, not too far away, was what was her skull anyway, So yeah, it was a stark discovery and where a lot of remained there, uh so, but still they couldn't find the head of janis odd, that's what the official record says. That's also what Keppel has said. I think Keppel called it's a veritable cash of human remains.

But in any event, they wouldn't know for quite some time exactly who the third set of of of of remains were. And of course that turned out to be Georgianna Hawkins and and and Bundy told him told told Keple that at the end, and they went back. This was fifteen years later when when Keppel's getting this connect so he goes back and he tries to I mean, Bundy gave it. You know, you can hear Bundy on the tape. He's trying to honestly try to give directions

of where he buried her skull. He said, on the hillside, and it wasn't too far from where the main remains were found. But Keppel said that the the geography of the land as it were, kind of changed, you know, maybe erosion and things like that, and they were never able to locate it. Some people believe that maybe Bundy lied about that. I don't. He was being exceedingly exceedingly honest at his end of life confessions. And you know, even and if Bundy did encounter something, he didn't want

to talk about graphelia or whatever. He you know, he wouldn't lie about anything, but he would say, well, you know what, that's a little hard for me to talk about now, or I'll have to get back with you about that if it's possible, and that's what he would do. But he was being exceedingly honest. So I think Bundy gave acturate directions as to where they could find a skull, but for some reason they have not been able to

find it. And so, as I say in the book, that the skull of Georgia Ane Hawkins remains part of the it's called crime scene to this day.

a judge she dates. So just add to the horror of this guy Melissa Smith seventeen and her father's Louise her father's Louise Smith. Let's talk about Melissa's body is found in October. Yes, and so tell us what police find and discover at that in terms of her being held.

found found her. He called Summit County Sheriff Ron Robinson's office and, uh, you know, reported that there's a young female, white, young female dead in this in this area, right next to Timberline Subdivision. Anyway, Uh. Being short on manpower, Uh, he calls in the help of the Salt Lake County Sheriff's office and it turns out that Ben Forbes, which is Jerry Thompson's partner, came out to the scene. I

think the girl, I think Melissa was discovered. I don't know if it was around two o'clock in the afternoon, but about four p m. Ben Forbes, Defective Forest was headed to the scene that the captain of the Homicide Division there, which is Pete Hayward. He also came out there, and there was a patrol officer I can't remember his name,

but Forbes I had the report. Forbes, you know, he did the report, and I say in the book that they had no idea at that moment who was lying before them or what a terrible problem they had breathing down their necks. And at this point you got to remember that the first one to disappear that we know of was Nancy Wilcox sixteen, but there was right. But she's still considered a runaway. I mean, they just don't know what happened to her. But now here they have

a body and Melissa Smith. When Forbes started keeting at her, and he said he squatted down and looked at her, he thought he saw a bullet wound of contact in her skull, but it was not. She was not shot in the head. That was the extreme damage done by Bundy's crovar. He also made a determination because she disappeared on October eighteenth, and was not discovered on the hillside in Summit County until October twenty eighth, which you can see, that's you know, ten days. Yeah, so I'm sorry October

twenty seventh, of nine days. And he said he estimated the time of death between thirty and thirty six hours. And I see in the book even if you double that time, Melissa had to be had to have been kept somewhere alive, but probably in a comatose state some time now later at the end, Bundy admitted taking will Cox to his apartment. Debbie kent to his apartment, he said,

the only other there one day. And I talked to Mike Fisher about this, and he also believed that Melissa Smith lived there as well as Laura and Amy again Laura Amy, and I was going to just we'll talk about her later, but I'll throw this out. She disappeared on Halloween night fill with thirty first crossover to no November first, in the middle of the night, and she wasn't discovered until Thanksgiving, which I believe was on the twenty seventh of November that year. She too, had not

been dead that long. And I've seen the crime scene photos of her, and most people have never seen these, but I have seen them, and it wasn't that cold, so where I thought that she was supposing in saus By anything like that, and she was very pristine looking. But in any event, so you know, here's Forbes, he's squatted down, he's he's looking at her. Pete Hayward's standing there, the officers standing there, and they're they're gathering as much

information he does. Forbes does an excellent job describing the body and how it's you know, it was laying there, and of course later they found out, of course it was you know, Melissa Smith, and we talked about in the last section. Now she disappeared after leaving the Pepperloni pizza place, and how Bundy had been drinking at the same time that she's there, or just a little bit

earlier than that. And Bundy ran into Luis Cannon, who I interviewed from my book The Bundy Secrets, and she knew Ted and he was really, you know, he was not very talkative. It was unlike him and because he was jump starting himself with alcohol, he said at the bar drinking and he was reserved, subdued because he was transforming into that altered state to go hunting for women. And it was soon after he left the bar. Louise was there to meet several friends. They went to a table.

Next time she looked over, ted was gone. And so from there he must have made his way a very short distance from the bar, which was called William McCoy's, and that was there's another one there today in Utah in Salt Lake City, but this is but this was at the other localcation. It's not too far from the pizza place. So he made his way over there and in some former fashion was able to abduct Melissa Smith.

So anyway, so, uh, it's going to be expected. And of course Jerry Thompson, the investigator, the lead investigator for most of these cases in Utah, uh, he said that,

you know, he was good friends with Ellis Smith. And when when it became known by the general public women were starting to disappear and that somebody had he might say, the audacity to have murdered the you know, Midvale Police Chief Willis Smith's daughter, a lot of people began to realize that really no one was saying, I mean, if you have a female in your family, you're gonna have to watch her and some people. I even quote a

fellow in there named Dino Anderson. He was a police chief of Balfour, Utah, and he said after the Kent abduction on November, he said, I used to think Daubtful was a safe place. But you know, he said, I can't say that anymore. But but I say in the book that police officers, above all people know that any village, town, or hamlet, wherever you go, as the possibility to have any pure evil raise its head and strike. And so most copts would go, yeah, this is a nice community

and chancel's all. That won't happen again. Like that. Even in the book, I put a picture of Email High School up and I say, you know, very deep within the neighborhood, it was an unlikely place for abduction. And that's true, but unlikely doesn't mean it can't happen.

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Salt Lake City, both north and south. Well, she was south down there orum and again she wouldn't be found. Now, I believe we can't prove this, but I believe that

all these women at different times were kept at Bundy's apartment. Now, I've always believed that he had them in the apartment at least for a time or since they have found a cellar now, which I when I wrote the Bundy Murders, I was not aware that there was a seller Ashtt sixty five First Avenue, because it's to the if you're looking at the front of the house, it's in the rear but on the side, and it's got a door

that shuts and locks. Well, people have said that they have heard that lived there, had heard that Bundy had that was going down there all hours of the night. Now, the reason why he could do that and feel like he was safe to do that is because that door that shuts on top locks, and because he was like the maintenance man. He was kind of like the property manager. He would show room sometimes and he would cut the grass. He had that. But I don't believe he just used

the cellar. I believe he went up to his room cell especially if he was going to keep somebody as long as maybe Melissa Smith or Laura an Amy. And I've always felt that I felt it would be the kind of crime that Bundy would do. And I've told people think of the Linda Ann Healy abduction reverse where he carried her out of the university district in the middle of a university area in the middle of the night. He could do the same thing taking women up there. Well,

here's the thing. He basically comes out and confirms it. He confirms it with Michelle Stephen Michau during a taped interview, and Michelle's talking about that. He talks about carrying people in and out of apartments and basically people could look

it up. In fact, I've got the quotes from these books in my sixth and final Bundy book that's coming up that will be released in My publisher told me late in November and it talks about this, and so Bundy says he just felt basically, he said, I felt like I was invincible, but no I could I could walk through the walls. So my feeling is this. I don't think he'd have kept them in this dank cellar for four or five days when he could have the

comfort of being upstairs. And if he was like he said to Michaud, that he could feel like he could do anything. It's a in the middle of the night. I've been to that place five sixty five First Avenue twice. You can walk from the back, or he can park the scar on the driveway, carry somebody up the steps up to it would take him less than a minute. A minute. And we're normal, you know, we're normal people. Oh my god. We would never do that, but Bundee would.

So I believe he kept them both in his room as well as the seller. For example, he said about the Debbieken abduction, he said only at it one day, and in fact, for the sixth book transcribed the end of life confession and it's a long one to Dennis Couch. So you told them defective And he talks about having her up there for one day, so she was probably in the cellar idell if he took her up to his room. In any event, this is what Buddy said. She was at the apartment someplace, and so it means

that they were there. And so, you know, you got to keep in mind in Washington State, he was he had a lot that was his territory, and he knew what he liked. He knew the forest areas, and he could make these kill sites and dumb sites, and that's what he would do. He did not know the area and nearly as well in Salt Lake City, Utah and the surrounding county. That's one of the reasons why he spent most of the time in that semester strolling and

getting used to it. He had been there before because Liz and her parents lived not in Salt Lake but I think in Ogden, Utah. But they had been in Salt Lake. But he got to know the area, you know, really well. At the same time, he was not dumping bodies in Utah in what they call dump sites, and he had at least two in Washington State, the Issacua

dump site and the Taylor Mountain dump site. So and Taylor Mountain would not be discovered until March of nineteen seventy five, but they found the Issaqual crime scene in September eighth, what we talked about of seventy four. March first of nineteen seventy five, they make the discovery of Taylor Mountain, which really was the place was to be given that later. But where he sequested the heads, he probably buried the remainder of the bodies for the Tailor

dump site there. Some bones were unearthed at Taylor Mountain that were later identified to these women, but there weren't a lot of them, and so that denotes burial, and so maybe some large predators dug parts of them up over a period. And but that's at the Tailor Mountain side. So in Utah, it's my estimation again that he kept them at his apartment and he was bold enough to do that. And so then again you have the abduction of Laura and Amy and she wasn't found until Thanksgiving.

I hope I'll announced this right there is that my Tippecanos Welcome center off of the Fleaway there and it also had trails that you could walk, and she was discovered on the morning Thanksgiving morning by two hikers all these students there and it turns out that they were I guess they looked to the left and they spotted what they thought was a female body. They were convinced of it, and from then they went back. They made

some calls. The welcome center may have been shut down for people being thanksgi A. You could probably walk in and walk out, you know, ease the restaurant or whatever, but they probably have to go to a phone and call. And that's when they brought And again I've seen the crime scene photos. I'll tell you that something the most stark photo. You know, Bundy had done what he always almost always did. He would strangle them from behind while

he's having sex with them. And the picture of Amy when you look at that picture of the main picture, an up close shot of her where her tongue is protruding from her mouth because of the strangulation. When you look at the autops reports, I mean the people doing autops report, they're very thorough, like you know, you know the doctor is doing that or just like the detective. They haven't described these crime scene they just don't leave

anything out. And when I read the autopsy reports, because I don't have the picture, they were shown to me by Jim man See, who had gotten them from Wrong Holmes. And uh, if I knew I was going to be writing about Bundy one day, this is what I did. I would have made copies of not just those pictures. But but I've read all the letters that Bundy had sent to Ron Holmes and all the homes at home. All the letters at home sent to Bundy are now with Bob Keppel and his stuff. Okay, but nobody really

has read these other letters. And I was able to read them one night because of Jim Massey, And yeah, they were interesting. But if I don't know I was going to write a book on Bundy, I was a copy of them arow. But in any event, the pictures of Law are stark. But he said, close shots it shows a woman. I'm talking about all this to let you know she hasn't been dead very long at all.

And uh, of course that's why investigators think that she was kept alive somewhere, and they used to look for I remember when I was doing research for one of the books, I think it was The Bundy Secrets, somebody was on a tangent that I knew, looking for cabins where he might have Bundy might have kept victims in Utahim said, listen to stop because he's already. Have you not heard the Dennis Couch confession that said, no, I said there it is. He said, I took debrahat back

to my apartment. You know what he meant at the top sixty five first even it and Couch confirmed that. So so you know, until you know, you don't know. But in that case, I was able to help this one of those saying you're really going down the wrong line there because you're not going to find the cabin. He took them home, and so it's interesting. We can't prove that he had them in the apartment. We can't even prove he had them in the cellar, but we know he did and from what Bundy told Michell, he

absolutely took them up to his apartment. You know. Anyway, it's an interesting, interesting thing. I mean, this is the guy Bundy that would do things that nobody believed were possible or would be possible. I mean, when we think we're normal people, and when a normal person thinks about abduction and murder, they automatically start thinking in terms of how they would do it. But they're handicapped by their own normalness as it were, they're thinking in terms of

normal and how they would do it. Bundy was anything but normal. And Bundy would get a great rush of doing things practically, sometimes right out in front of people. And so you know what he told, you know, Michelle, about how he did this and how he thought about himself as he was doing it explains why people like that cycle paths can do these things. When a normal person would think about doing it, they'd go, oh my gosh, I would never do that. I would do it another way.

And of course the other abduction, of course, was a Deborah Kent and of course that happened on November eight, and that is the same night Carol d Ranch that he had to have spotted coming onto the Fashion Place mall in Marie, Utah the property driving her. I think it was a yellow Camaro. I even read I think it was yellow. I'm not sure. I can't remember, but it was a Camaro. And then he went up to her and did his officer rolls one thing, and you know,

somebody tried to break it. And you have a Camaro and somebody tried to break in the car. Can you follow me? And so she did out of the car. Interesting thing happened there too, because the car was locked. She knew she locked it. He said, is there anything looking missing? He said no, and then he goes, you know, could you unlock the car and get in? And that's

an interesting thing because she refused. And it's a good thing she did, because I have a sneaking suspicion Bundy was going to waylay her in her own car in some way, do something to her and then maybe take off in her car. We don't know, but it was odd that he said, could you get in? This is her car. She didn't do it, and she was one that always wanted to obey authority, but she would disobey authority on this night and twice and this was the first time. So then he goes back into the mall.

He said, well, my partner's holding a suspect, so we'll go back into the mall. He said, oh, he's not here. They must have walked across the street. Of course, I've walked this. And then you go out on the other side of the doors, and he crossed the side of the parking lot. State Street is on your left. As you do this, and then you go across the little side street and right in front of there it's a cleaners and longer mat but they have a side door

and that side door is marked one thirty nine. Well, I can tell you now that Bundy had all of this stuff already going in his head on what he was going to do, and he had to have pre checked that that door would be locked. So he walks up to the door and his Volkswagon. She doesn't he didn't even tell her this yet, that his Volkswagging is sitting off to the right on that little road that they just crossed, down about maybe twenty thirty feet maybe

twenty feet, probably not more than twenty. And so he goes up and he tried the door one thirty nine on the side of the build, and I've got a picture of it in the book, and it's locked. Of course he knows it's locked. He said, well, listen, I've got I'd like you to fall. I'd like you to come with me to go to the MURRAYPD which she knew was going to be. You got to go straight and hit State Street and then State Street and then

follow it. She said, okay, she said, you have a badge or something that I could see just in case, and she's already talked about she would tell her how Anthony was, how well addressed he was. He kind of condescended. We kind of laughed at her for asking for a badge, which no real cop would do. It's absolutely in fact, he'd presented the badge immediately. So he presented his badge, but he didn't really let her look at it long.

So he gets into the volks Volkswagen. He puts her in a pastor seat and he asked.

was Fashion Boulevard. That might have been the name of then, but it may not have been. In any event, he takes a left of Fashion boulevard and he goes down not more than a block block and a half and he pulls alongside. And they got to remember this is around oh, seven point thirty. It got dark there about five fifteen five thirty, so it's nighttime. It's slightly drizzling, and he pulls up in front of the bus area where the buses would pull up to the McMillan Elementary School,

and he would uh, and he stopped the vehicle. Uh. Carrol later said that he ran his car up on the wheels, the right wheels accidentally up on the like the curve there, and came back down and he immediately attacks her. Okay, she thinks he has a gun, she's the prosecutor later told me that he never used weapons like that, so we're not sure about it. Plus, she could never identify whether it was a revolver or an automatic.

And you know, unless it was a flint lock, that's all there is, automatics or which is really a semi automatic. It's either that or it's or it's it's a revolver. So but so the prosecutor is a little skeptical that Bundy had a gun, but she started fighting with him, and he went to get her the handcuffs on the right wrist, and he got one on and then in the fight he made a mistake and got them on the second. Now Carol didn't even remember this. Cheryl thinks

he left one of them dangling. He did not. That's what she said on the Netflix stock That is incorrect. So I published her report at the Murray PD. And she got there. She was once she got away from body, and she knew he was trying to knock the heck out of her with a clow bar. She splotting hard. That's the only reason why she survived. And she jumped out of the car and it was car lights coming down the road and there was an old couple, Wilbur and Mary Walsh, and they picked her up and took

her to the Murray PD. Well, they walked her into the PD. First thing they did they set her down, and they saw and made the report that both tuffs were attached to the right wrist, and they even named the detective who removed them. So she just can't remember, you know, just and that happens with a It's been forty years, you know. So anyway, so she gets in there, she tells what she knows, and of course Bundy, he's half in and half out of this altered state of murder.

So what does he do? He goes jumps in the car. He remembers the brochure that he had picked up a couple of weeks earlier in Bountiful, Utah, from where he also got gas, and he had been at the recreation center and there was a there was a grochure there and talked about to play the Redhead that would be showing on that Friday night of November eight. So he, you know, he's he's not going to go home without a victim. He's halfway in and out of this altered

state of murder. So he heads to the neighborhood. He eventually jumps on I fifteen going north. He makes it the Bountiful there's a girl in the parking lot. He tries. Most of the people are inside. It's an auditorium that holds like fifteen hundred people, but there's a couple of people knowing about it. And let me try to get a girl to follow him from there. She said no,

and then that was it. So Bundy goes inside. He exposes himself that he's fifteen hundred people, and he uh a lot of people out in the main area because you go on the front doors and then you got a big hallway and then you've got the on the toorium is on the you know, past a little hallway right there. It's right there, and you could all the doors were open, so he could see the huge crowd there, but there was also lots of people in like the foyer area, and so he makes an impression there, but

he doesn't seem to be bothered by it. And of course the play runs late. Call these little circumstances that happens. The playe runs late. And one family at the play were the Kents, and Debbie was a you know there she was she she had seen the plane, but she wanted but she wanted to see it again. The parents were wanting to see it. Her father, Dean Kent, had just recovered from a heart in the process of recovering from an art attack, you can imagine that, and that's

his first night out. They're city on the left side of the auditorium, about maybe eight or ten seats down from the back of the auditorium. Running along the back of the auditorium is a brick half wall, and then you have your main area for foot traffic, and then there is a you know, large wall that that in cases the auditorium, and then you get out through your little exits from that into the foyer, or you can exit the building on the east or west exits on

both sides. Okay, so Bundy is doing he's acting weird that people. He's trying to get different women to go with him. He can't. He ends up being on that western portion or that left portion of the auditorium, and people later identified Buddy as being leaning on the half wall. He kind of split his time from leaning on that

half wall and the back wall. And because the play ran late, Debbie decided to leave so that the parents would miss the play and pick the family car and pick up one of her brothers at a roller rink. They said they'd be there like around ten o'clock and the place should have been over, but it late getting started. So the last thing that Belvicant, the mom said was be careful, deb and hurry back. And what happens is

she goes out the western side of the doors. Ivid did a I mean I was in there in two thousand and six, took photographs of all these areas, but I went back to do additional research for the Trail of Dead Body. The school was closed. I couldn't go inside, but I did a video outside of the school explaining all this so people can see that that's online. But she came out in the side doors.

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We were we problem right in the middle. We were right in the middle of this abduction of Deborah Kent with her parents at this play in this little high school. Continue with what Bundy is able to do even though he's seen by many people it at this auditorium that night. What does he what does he end up doing? What happens with Debora Kent?

gone and gotten to her quicker going that way. Instead of that, he hurries back in the opposite direction, goes out the front exit, then goes through the main doors, and then he's really trying to pick up some speed while he goes down the sidewalk area. He doesn't realize it, but in doing so, he must have been going for his keys or something, because he dropped the handcuff key and that would be found by Iran Fields people the

next day. So he catches up with her and now, yeah, you remember it's dark, it's close to ten o'clock probably isn't raining anymore. There's no people out in the parking

lot because the play is not over. There are apartments across the street from the school and some houses next to the school, and a number of people came forward later later and said they heard a hot pitched scream coming from the parking lot, and one person said followed but maybe I think somebody said maybe there was like a second scream, but we know there was at least

one scream. And what happened is but Bundy, what he most likely did was and he didn't have to have to get in this car, for he probably all replaced his crowbar behind underneath his car, and he must have just as Debby was trying to get into a car, he was able to attack her, strike her and overwhelm her. And he must have hit her quite hard, and he knew that she would be out for some time. What he didn't do was throw her into the car and

leave immediately. He put her in the car, you know, and he he just probably threw a blanket over her and he went back inside. Now, until this occurred, anybody who had seen Monday prior to this, like the drama teacher, Raylan Shepherd, who tried to get you know, rail In to go out with him to quote identify a car in the parking lot unquote, so you know, he was acting like a police officer again and she wouldn't do it.

She saw him the last time after this had happened to Debbie, but she didn't know it, and instead of being like well dressed and and his normal self as she had been before, she and some other people said that he was winded. His shirttail, one of the shirttails was hanging out. It just looked like a kind of

like a mess. Well, nobody really talked about that before, but my theory was this, after he abducted her, you know it, you know, he had to whack her, he had to struggle with her, he had to knock her out, and then he had to lift her body into his car, which left him winded, which left him with his one of the shirttails hanging out. And I think the reason why he did that is to at least present somewhat of an alibi that people had seen him there before

Kent left and after Kent left. And because that's the only thing that we can think why he did that for there would be no reason to go back in there. Also, somebody reported not at the time of the screen, but at a time factor that would be later than around when the scream will have occurred. Uh a, but still with nobody else really out in the parking lot, a Volkswagen take off a rather high speed, and of course

that would be Bundy getting out of there. In fact, Bundy, when people noticed him looking winded in the shirt tail out, he actually tried to instead of along the half wall, leaning on the half way the back, he actually sat in an empty seat. And when Bundy saw Raylan Shepherd staring at him and pointing out to her husband this guy, that unnerved him. And so that's when he got up

and left. And I also talk about there's an odd coincidence that happened that without knowing it, Bundley had rubbed shoulders with a future victim because in that conference or I'm sorry, in that play the Redhead on if you want to high school on November.

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But in any event, yeah, I mean, it's real creepy when you think about these oddities, these these circumstances that occur. But the thing people need to remember about Bundy is when you look at these kind of abductions from lakes to Manage, to coming in and exposing themselves to fifteen hundred people at DeMont High School and in bound for Utah, and just some of the other wild things that he did, the Lindy and Healy abduction, this is a guy that

would do practically anything. And again, most normal people they don't think in terms of this, and they think, well, there surely wouldn't be anybody that would do this, or yes there are not everybody would have the savvy to carry out the kind of murders that Bundy did. Even if they're cycle passed and to get away with it so long. But again, Bundy was a very skilled planner of murder, and it's odd, it's just odd he would just get away with one murder act another.

to the general public back then. And but you know, this is twenty years later, after one of these executions, I'm contacted him and we really became friends and he and he wrote out a lot of stuff for me an email, and we talked a lot on the phones. But he talks about uh things, and he you know, he was really give him a lot of praise in my book. He was just a stute law man. Well,

the wild Wood in was a strange abduction. And what happened was is that there was a medical conference uh in in in AskMen uh in at snow Mass, which is like AskMen snow Mass. It's all right there. You know the lodges you got asked in the bottle, and they got all these lodges up up on the hill and and and and uh the snow Mass Lodge, the

wild Wood in its way up there. And attending the medical conference was doctor Raymond Godowski, uh from Michigan, his girlfriend who was a nurse, Karen Campbell, their mutual friend, and also a former boyfriend doctor Rosenthal. Now I don't I only use three pseudonyms in my book the Bundy Murders for Guyant Edwards, for doctor Rosenthal, I call him doctor Brinkman. And for Karence Sparks, I used Terry Caldwell.

Truth be told, I thought Sparks was not a was not a real name, so but I might use the pseudonym anyway. Everybody else name was in there, but I purposely didn't do it for Rosenthal or for Edwards. I just thought it would be more appropriate. But they came from Michigan, and you know, they weren't there twenty four hours until this terrible thing happened. And what happened is and here's the thing. This is really interesting because I wrote about this in depth in the in the Bundy Murders.

I remember Fisher telling me, he said, you know the wild Wood In And at the time he's telling me this, I'm doing a lot of research. I had never been there. But he said, the wild wood In is kind of like a horseshoe shaped building and a variety of buildings, but there is an out a very popular outdoor heated pool. And he said that pool in these deep cold of

a Colorado winter, will constantly in the steam. He said, it can get so heavy that you know, you can see people and then they disappear, they kind of come into focus, they go away.

and they went to some lass village. There's a place that's right there called the stupot In and it's still there, and she had she didn't want to eat a whole lot, but she got a bullet of stew and she got a glass of milk and she didn't finish either of them. And they went back to the And also, I just I'm just gonna throw this out. It's not usually wise to have your wife around somebody that she used to

sleep with. I mean, I know that they were all friends, but the dynamics of the sexual relationships among people, when you know that that has gone on, it can sometimes create issues with people. And I didn't go into this in great detail then, but I knew it was that was probably there. There were some issues going on, all

the record says. And what Mike and I talked about was is that when they when when doctor Rosenthal and and and doctor Gadowski and the two kids and Karen Campbell went back from having dinner at the stupat the end, he flopped in the chair doctor doctor Gadowski in the sunken bar area where the fireplace. I've been there, it's really nice. And she they had stopped off at a at a little drug store for at the sup potty, and it's right there, and they were pruising the magazines.

And doctor Rosenthal, I think he had a Pantastas. I think it's a Hustler, and Karen had a Viva. Now, Viva was kind of like a somewhat erotic magazine for females back then, and I know in the encyclopedia I put the dates of when the magazine started and when it ended, but it was nothing like a hustler, but it was still one of those kind of like a writ things. So they were laughing about it, and they

decided to exchange magazines. So Karen had said to doctor Godowski, you know, Raymond Gadowski, could you go get my magazine? They had a room in to ten. He said no, he refused to do it. And you get the sense when you read the record that he must have been irritated about something. And I kind of think I know what that is, but I don't write about it. But so Rosenthal goes off to get his magazine. She goes

off to get hurt. Now here's again circumstances. How circumstances determine whether you're going to get abducted or or not. The kids, Kadawski's kids wanted to go with Karen to her room. She allowed them to walk to the elevator where she was going to take it, but then she sent them back to their dad. Had she taken the kid with her, there isn't any way that she would have been abducted. GV alive and breathing right now, unless he was killing a car wreck or something. So she

goes up. Now at the time, Mike's telling me all this, We covered so much stuff, and I reproduce a lot of his emails and information forbade him for the next Bundy book after the Bunny Verse, the Trilla Dead Bunny. But I didn't know that Mike knew exactly how he got her, and he did a fantastic job Mike did of interviewing people in the middle of the night. They're getting names. It took him a long time to track Bundy down with this. But she goes up the elevator.

I see in the first edition of the Bundy Merse that he must have been standing back out of the shadows on the second floor, near like a like a closet area for that they had there the walkways, uh, you know, the steam's not going on. You can see everything from all angles. First floor or second floor, it doesn't matter.

It turns out that Bundy gave up. I mean, Mike Fisher gave a news conference afterwards, and I remember Mike telling me, and I saw this in the article that before Bundy had gone up to the wild Wood End, he spent time in in in Aspen, like driving around and hunting for victims down there, and then he went up, as Bundy said, amongst the lodges, and he ended up

at this thing. It turns out that Mike had mentioned how she was abducted in an article to the Aspen Times after he returned from the execution of Bundy in January of nineteen eighty nine, and here's what he said. And so I've added this to the second edition. And I wasn't aware of this, He wasn't keeping it from me. I've just talked about so many many, many, many many things.

We just never hit on this. What he did was Harder did see him, and he was by the elevator, the elevator most likely on the first floor, and Bundy admitted to Fisher that there was a particular woman that as colvid as it was, he was trying to get her to go with him, was to help him like he was on crutches, but Harder saw him. He it must have laid the crutches down and was just standing there because she didn't see any crutches. And he had also step but he had laid those down too, and

she didn't see those. But according to what Mike said that she saw that after Harter saw him, Karen, who had taken the elevator up, was walking across the outdoor balcony and as must have been as the steam parted for a second, he saw she saw Bundy on crushes and so she's a nurse. She asked him if he needed help. Well, Bundy wanted this other woman. He wanted to get this other one. But when she offered that, he said yes. And what Bundy said what he did

was that she helped him. She may have come down to the first floor, he may have gone up the second boy, and then they went down the steps from the outside. They had parked in the They have a big parking lot on the left. She could park some of in a couple of areas, but their main parking lot is on the left of the building. So I got a picture that I took of the stairs leading down from the pool areas and outside stairs. That's probably what they came down and then turned the left wand

into the parking lot. But Bundy said when they got to the car, and no doubt, and he probably didn't have the crowbar out this time, or he would have used it, as she was apparently put in the crutches in his car, he took the ski boots and hit her in the head and knocked her out. Now he would tell Mike Fisher, he would tell, of course, after

he did that. He probably struck her one time with the crowbar, because that's what he told Fisher, you know, he said, it looks like all the others I hit her just once played with a crowbar, didn't kill her, knocked her out. He took her two point eight miles away. There's a road called the Outcreak Road that leads right out of that village once you get down even go on Outcreak Road, went two point eight miles away. And he told Fisher, I did not thing right there in

the car. And that's in the first ambition. And so but I've added this extra stuff. Here's this wild abduction, wild abduction. And he gets away with it. And then he said he left. Some people think he stayed around, maybe came back to me, and let no, he says real clearly in the record, he said he he he got away from there on what he termed it slicked back roads. And so it's a fantastic, uh an odd abduction.

Of course, doctor Goodawski had to call the police. That's when Mike first, you know, uh you got a call from share Bill Baldridge, and so they end up going to the uh wild wood in and interviewing him, and they stayed the rest of the time at the medical conference and uh you know, went back. But you know, Michael wasn't thinking he was involved, but he did. He did polygraph him, uh, while he was there. It was uh, it wasn't. It didn't. It didn't exonerate him and certainly

didn't make him guilty. It was I don't know what the word that he was. I can't think of it. The same word they used the book, but it was not He wasn't showing any times of deception at all. And then he would take a later one with Mike when Mike visited Michigan and he passed the playing college. Of course the children were there and they backed up the bad story. So Mike didn't really think they were suspects, but as a good defective he had to completely ruled

them out, and they had to rule out. We're in Kodowski and also doctor Rosenthal and so you know, and so one last thing led to another, and a year later, when he was back there, he talked to this Elizabeth Harter and she identified Bundy as being the one. And of course when that happened, he knew that he was on the hunt for the right you know, the right guy.

He later determined that because Jerry Thompson, He and Jerry Thompson had been working together, because both of them had Missigan and murdered women in the state in Colorado and Utah back up to each other, and so they shared their information freely, and Jerry had gotten Bundy's gas receipts and then that that was a great thing because then it showed Bundy being in the areas where these women disappeared at the time they disappeared, and and he's using

his gas cards, so they knew they had the right guy. A terrible, terrible thing. An though Elizabeth Hard ended up identifying somebody else during his trial, uh and which and Fisher always believed that it could have been something like and she's dead now I can't say this, but I don't think he's a looted anymore. But he always felt like it was perhaps because she was maybe against the death penalty and this was a death comnoty case. But

he wasn't sure. But she just misidentified. And now later I had a fellow tell me that she might it might have been an honest mistake because there was a fellow there that kind of looked like Bundy, but but was not so anyway, very interesting case you have.

Utah Highlight Patrol on a part of me. It's not August fifteenth, part of me, it's August sixth, you say, around two thirty.

to have said alone. But in any event, he didn't die until I think about a year year and a half ago, really old fellow when he died, but he had Bundy. Bundy was such a liar when he was arrested that night and it came out to who he was. You know, he even tell people that even Unton that night. That's what that's a lot. He had removed the passenger seat and that was lying in the backseat, and he had his murder kit to get this. The murder kit

was not just sitting inside the car. It was unzipped and the peg was unzipped and some of the stuff was like stolen out of it. Well, around two o'clock in Granger, Utah, a small suburb, he's sitting there, he's smoking a joint and he's got a map out. He's trying to figure out his way back to to you know, his home and Bob Hayward is just getting off work and he sees Bundy and he observes him for a

little bit. That when but when Hayward turns his lights on again and starts coming at him, Uh, it freaks Bundy out. He starts the car, he takes off, the dumbest thing he could have done. And Uh, the reason why Hayward was paying special attention to him fairly, his neighborhood had suffered just a normal neighborhood, it's certainly with a bad area. It had suffered a ration of burglaries lately.

He thought, well, maybe this guy who's why would there be a guy sitting at two o'clock in the morning, So obviously it was a suspicious deal. So Bunny tries to flee. He's not going to be able to flee. He's never going to outrun that cop car. He goes. He starts off with his lights off and he ends up turning them on. He runs through a couple of stop signs. Then he gets out on more of a main road. I think it's thirty five, but I can't remember,

turns left. He's not going to get away from him, and so what he ends up doing is pulling into a place where a gas station needs to be. I believe it was out of business, and of course that is how that happened. And of course a Ward Bundy gets out of the car. He's going to schmooze the cop, no doubt. And I have added this to that to the new edition. But instead of carrying a simple thirty eight revolver like most police officers did, Bob carried a

three fifty seven magnum. You can also fire thirty hls through that, but he carried the actual magnum, which is not normally a standard issue for a patrolman, usually back in that time of the nineteen seventies. But there may have been with his department. I don't highway patrol it, I guess maybe it was, but for local police departments it's usually it's usually a thirty eight special back then.

So he opens his door crack and he sticks the magnum out between his door, tells Bundy to stop, of course, Then you know, he goes up and he looks at the car. Bundy gives him permission to no look at it and go inside of it. What Hayward does? He looks in there and he sees immediately the passenger seat

is gone, and then he sees this bag. So he called the Salty County sheriff and he gets a couple of patrol officers out there, and they also send detective Daryl Andrac out there, right, and Andrac comes out there, and of course, Andrac takes a look at this stuff, and you know, hey, we already said looking at some money, I'm you know, I'm going to arrest you the night for evading a police officer and also being in possession

of burglary tools. But the Saltway County Sheriff's office, if they had a deal like that, they would often charge somebody with burglary tools just to get them in jail, and then if they had amend that to something else, they would do so later. But when Andrac saw that stuff, he thought, no, this is you know, this is more

than just he's carrying stuff that burglars don't carry. He's carrying, you know, rope, he's carrying sheets, bed sheets that have been tied that have been torn in strips, like the binding hands or feet. So you know, detectives they look at it, they go, this isn't normal burglars. Somebody like trying to abduct somebody. It's just it's different, but charge of burnery and and he goes, well, from that moment on, it was Bundy the hunter has now become Bundy the hunted.

And from that moment on he would never kill again until Flora. But you know, he just so it was

a very pivotal moment for everybody. And uh, you know, it's almost like an epiphany happened that once this unveiling occurred, it's like the scales from everybody's eyes that fell off, and everybody knew that this man who had been killing in the Pacific Northwest and in Utah and in Oregon there was killed, abducted parks from there and then and then Colorado and then Idaho and then you know, we haven't even covered the abduction of like, you know, the

twelve year old girl you know, with a cover from from Polka Tello, Idaho. But you know it's him. Everybody knew it's him, and there was no denying it and there was no doubts. I remember Thompson said to me once, and I quoted him of the book. He said, when I got the gas receipts, he tried to keep it open mind before then. But he said, when I got the gas receipts and I saw that Bundy was in these areas at the same time that these young women were disappearing, he said, I knew there wasn't any way,

it wasn't him. And so the scale spell from everybody's eyes at one time. And then from that moment on it was it was, you know, Bundy was in survival mode. And I say that he probably didn't know where it was all going to go when he walked home back night vand pounded in his car of August sixteenth, nineteen

seventy five. But he would soon find out. And of course, you know, within a few months, because of the investigation into this guy Bundy, he would be charged in October of seventy five with the abduction of Carol Larache and uh they and they also wont to charge him with the attempted to murder, but they had been amendment to just because there was no proof that he was going to murder. They knew he would have and so you know, from from that moment and then it's an interesting thing.

You know, after he gets out of jail with that on bail and he's hired an attorney. He's allowed to go back to his home in Seattle, and he uh, you know, for like late in the fall, late in November, I think he arrived in I think he arrived there in like December one, and he would not have to return to Salt Lake City until around I think around mid February, and uh, you know, so when when he

was really based on jail. Thompson called Kepple's people and I want to give your heads up that he's been released and there's no restrictions on travel and he's going to come there. And they already they already anticipated go there. And because Seattle authorities, couple people were working with a couple psychiatrists, psychiatrists and psychologists on what kind of person they're dealing with with the murdering of these women, and

now they know it's Bundy. They said, listen. The psychiatric people said, you're going to have to keep him under surveillance, and he's going to have to know he's under surveillance, because it's only him knowing he's under surveillance that will cause him not to commit another act. And he said, even if you can't keep your eyes on him. Twenty four to seven, although you know you need to try

to do that. He's got to feel that pressure of being under surveillance, and so I call it like a thing of the predator under glass, and Bundy has a hard time with it. She had a hard time with it in Utah as well. And for this last one November, I republished all of those surveillance things that happened with him in Utah, but in the Monday Murders I only added the very interesting ones of of what happened in Seattle,

the Seattle area. And then in one of the books, I think maybe the Bundy's Secrets, I published all the surveillance things for people to see later. So it's interesting. And so again Bunny would never murder again, of course. You know. Here's what happened, and I'm just gonna say it. He gets one to fifteen years in Utah State Prison. That nickname pointed them mount in prison for the abduction

of care at the Lodge. Mike Fisher gets a warrant place to get him for the Colorado murder of Pary Campbell. They transferred to the jail there and Fisher took him there with two other people personally, he and Fisher and Thompson one than one of them. You gotta watch this guy. He escapes once, is recaptured, and then escapes a second time. I mean he's a Keystone cops who were running these jails. I'm telling you, that's what the paper called them. Yeh.

And then of course he gets to Florida, comes through Louisville, doesn't murder anybody, gets to Florida and sets up shot down there and ends up committing two murders kind Omega murders, and in his last murder, just like when that Culver was twelve, he ends up murdering Kimberly Leech on February ninth, nineteen seventy eight, and he's he is then, you know, arrested.

Nobody knows who is that he's arrested as he tries to flee the state in Pensacola on I think the fifteenth of February, and so then after that that's the end of the road and it's just a slow journey to the execution chamber.

because it was enough missteps. He had eluded all authorities in six states and murdered almost at will, this guy. And yet and yet at the same time he was allowed to continue this And and as you write, he was a much different person when he was killing in Florida. Once he got down there, he was a much much different person and a much different killer, wasn't he?

The women at share it which was a disco right next to a Kyomega said, I don't want this guy asked me to dance, and they said he was putting off these weird vibes, just like the one. Lady said, I think they just call a black. She said, It's like he had this almost like a smirk on his face, like I know something that you don't know. And so he was not the swall killer of nineteen seventy four. Those days were over.

to Wild Blue Press. I'm an author there. I published mostly through Wild Blue Press now, but I've got a number of publishers, and of course with Bundy Murders, with you know McFarlane, so eat a spot and of course if people want to contact me and connect with me on Facebook, i am there as well.