THE BUNDY MURDERS-Part 1-Kevin M. Sullivan

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and prosecutors. Using these sources, new information about several murders is unveiled. The biography follows Bundy from his broken family background to his execution in the electric chair. The book that we're featuring this evening is The Bundy Murders, A Comprehensive History, second Edition, with my special guest, journalist and author, Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program. Thank you very much for this interview.

friend of Jerry Thompson. He had known the retired investigator Utah investigator and I should say, the lead investigator for the Bundy case in Utah. He had known him since the mid to early nineteen eighties, and so we would occasionally talk about Bundy. I hadn't read any books about, you know, Ted Bundy, but we would talk about it.

And when Jerry and his wife Jean were coming to Louisville back in May of two thousand and five, I got a call and of course you know they you know, they've been friends with Jim and so that you know. He he called Jim and he said, well, you know we're we'll be in Louisville in May. This was like in March. So Jim called me and he said, listen, the Thompsons are coming to Louisville in May. Would you like to have dinner with us? I said, sure, I

think that would be great. I would love to at the time, I only had one book to my name, and that was my first book, Shattering the Myth. Signposts on coasters wrote to UH a disaster, and I was writing a true crime book, and I was also writing. I wasn't on staff, but I was writing occasionally, UH feature articles for a local newspaper which was really published in Lexington, Kentucky, and and Louisville, Kentucky and in about five or six about five other states. UH and UH.

The paper was called Snitch and it had to do with my crime and the law. And so I did several features for them and and some others in the UH pipeline when the paper went out of business. UH. But but but in any event, I said yeah, because I wanted to meet, you know, Jerry. I'd heard things about him, and it was my only opportunity to meet, you know, somebody that was connected with the case. I didn't think it was going to lead to anything, really,

So I got to meet Jerry. And what happened was on the Sunday that they arrived into Louisville, Jim called me and he let me know where we were going to be eating dinner. And I was about to say, okay, well you know, I'll see you there whatever, And he said he brought the bag. I said what bag? He said, the bag Bundy carry like his Merma kid. He said,

I have it with me now on my truck. So I said, listen, Jim, could I meet you a few minutes early, I mean earlier than when we were supposed to, you know, meet them in the parking lot of the rest.

But I said sure. So, you know, I got in the car, drove up to Gold Corral and it was not too far from my house up there in the exploiting area, and the Thompson's was staying about a half a mile down the road to a place called the Broken Ridge in and so I got there, you know, and as soon as they were then there was Jim

in his truck. He was getting down the truck he saw me, and he was carrying this brown satchel and that was Bundy's murder kit and it was encased in a large, clear plastic bag that Jerry had it in because he's had this bag ever since Bundy was executed.

He got it from you know, the Salt La Countys ARIOSO Office evidence room, and he used it as teaching duels anyway, So I got to look at all this stuff and went back to the Brigan Ridge in you know afterwards, and sat around and I interviewed Jerry and uh, just a really really really nice guy. And what I did was I wrote an article for Snitch about having this bag. Oh, and I need to tell you this.

On the second he turned the bag over to Jim for as long as they were in Louisville, and they were here about four days, so I got to meet him that night. I got to see this stuff. It's a it's a it's it's it's a gym bag, a brown one. It had two right handed gloves in it. There were different ones of Puffy's ski type field as a brown, a light brown woolen glove with a darker brown like leather palm area. And it had electrical cord

which he would use very often for choking. It had rope and strips of sheet for binding of hands and feet. It had a ski masks. It had glad banks because he would always take the clothes of the victims and it you know, if they were found at all, they were found nude, they might have a beaded necklace on them, but he would always put the clothes. You know, this is before real DNA was there, but still there could be connecting hairs and things, so he would get rid

of those in the dumpster down the road. And this particular glad box was a box of tin and there were three missing, so so he had that, and there was an ice pick, a flashlight, you know, just the duels of the trade of murderer Bundy. And so I called Jim a couple of days later and I said, listen, could I bring that stuff to over to my house the photograph it. He said sure. I went by Jim's house. It had just gotten like, you know, dark, and I

picked up the bag. I put it in the in the passenger seat of my car, and I started driving, and it was so surreal having ted Bundy's you know,

murder kid with me. And I looked over in the passenger seat and because it was dark, I'm going down the streets and there'd be street lamps occasionally, and when I would pass one, the bag would be kind of dark, and here comes the street light, and then it had this eerie glow it would shine on the bag, and then it was so I called my wife and I said, listen, honey, she said, we probably don't have anything on the din room table, but if we do, can you kind of

clear it off? And I'm bringing Ted Bundy's murder kid into the house because I want to photograph it. And my son in law was there, and my wife she doesn't really like things like this, but she said, oh, okay, sure, that's fine, and uh so I took it to my house, not my son in law. At the time. He was able to arrange it in different ways and I was taking pictures and then I took the bag back to

Jim later that night. And when the Thompson has left Louisville, uh like four days later, she said, why don't you meet us over at the Breckenridge in So we went over there and we took some more pictures and talked, and while he was waiting on his wife, she was doing some things in the room, Jerry was down with us in the parking lot. Uh Jim had popped that the tail thing on his truck, and uh, you know,

Jerry was sitting on and the bag was there. So we took more photographs and before Jerry left, he gave me and he gave Jim each one of the glad bags taken from Ted Bundy's Murkett and I said, Jerry, would you mind writing a letter of authentication? And he said sure. So I didn't have a paper on me, so I walked into the Broken Regina and I got some of the large stationary you know, like if I wanted to if I found a letter in the broken ridge, it's across the top, and I had, and he wrote

one out for each of us. I said, thank you so much. Well, I wrote an article for Snitch and this appeared I think in June or July of two thousand and five, and I thought, you know, I would get all of this out of my system, and you know, you know, just by doing this oracle. And so I was published. It was well received, but it didn't leave my system. And the funny thing is I kept wanting to know more about it. Just having that glad trash back and having that kid in my house and meeting Jerry.

I had to say it was more of the kid than even meeting Jerry, because I would have read an article even when I forgid about Jerry. But it was having those items that were so close to Ted Bundy and there was in my house there was no museum curator or a detective there to tell me what to do with it, and it was just surreal. So that was the impetus. That was the thing that really drove

me to start writing about Ted Bundy. And I mentioned the Massey I was going to write a book, and I told some others and they said, listen, Bundy has been done to death. You don't need to be writing a book about him. But as I've often said, sometimes you have to go with not what people say, but what you know on the inside. You need to be doing when you really know you should be doing it.

And I did, and so you know, I wrote the book, and I remember thinking halfway through the book I was finding out new things never before published about several of these murk and a tremendous amount of new information about the case in general. And of course it was it turned out to be the smartest move I've ever made, because the book has been a good seller every well. It was published in August of two thousand and nine. At the time, nobody really knew who I was, so

it took a while for that to get going. But once you know a number of people you know read the book, were like influential. They knew other people and they told other people, and you know, all of a sudden, after a while, people started knowing who I was in this and the book has you know, has just done nothing but built and built and built over the years.

And you know, in twenty seventeen, well, I should say I had documentarians contacted me as early as twenty ten about my book, and the American documentary makers really didn't get I guess the message about me for a long time, or perhaps they weren't making any docs about Bundy. But by twenty seventeen I had just a number of documentarians from the United States and the UK and contacting me

about Bundy, along with many national magazines of publications. Won the information, and none of the all of these these documentary makers.

there that you can make use of. So it's been a real experience, and of course this is the book that I never expected to ever write anything more than this book on Bundy, which is the full treatment of the murders and what I would call the full biography. And then, of course, in twenty fifteen, because of some people that have passed away and some information that I had, I decided to write what is known as a companion buy into that, which became the Trail of Ted Bundy.

And interestingly enough, I was able to uncover new information in that book. That is people do it never talked before, like Larry Anderson, who out of Utah, who was a good friend of Ted Bundy's. He told me, he said, you know, been on hunting down, he said. I was offered a lot of money one of the national magazines several days after Bundy was executed to give my testimony about it, but I just didn't want to do it.

So then he ends up talking to me twenty years later, doesn't ask for a dime and that, and there's a lot of testimonies in there that have never been in print before. And so I said, great, that's a good companion by him. And then the next year, because of some other things that happened, I did write another book and that was called The Bundy Secrets, and in that another group of new testimonies as well as the republication of the record and then commentary for me because people

love seeing different parts of the record. Another one I did a year or so later called Ted Bundy's Murderous Mysteries. Uh. And it's it's a deeper look into the victims and just it turned out to be a really good book. Uh.

And I got a lot of information. There was again new testimonies that had never come to the printed page before, you know, like the Bundy Secrets, I interviewed a woman, I mean Louise Cannon, and outside of the detectives in Utah, nobody, no writer has ever interviewed her or it really saw her out. Ted tried to work for a bank and

so her story is in there. And was interesting about Louise Cannon story is Louise who already knew Ted in Utah, and Ted always chatted her up and was you know, it was just like almost like the life of the party. She ran into him one night at a bar around a loot before eight thirty pm, and it was October eighteenth, nineteen seventy four, and that was just about an hour

and a half before he would abduct Melissa Smith. And she said, as I walked in, And of course you can read this story in the Bundy Secrets, because she said walked in, she saw him on a barstool up the bar. So she was going to her a table where her friends were, and she said, hey, Ted, how you doing? He said, hey, Louise, And she's noticed that he was not his jovial sense he looked different, sounded different, and that was you know, he was drinking alcohol. So

they didn't change a lot of words. And then she laught. She I meant, you know, to the table, she said. The next time she looked over, he was gone. Now we know from the record, we from what we know about Bundy, we know that he would jumpstart himself many times before going out and hunting, and that's what he was doing. So within a that's around eight thirty, by

ten o'clock, he's abducting Melissa Smith. That was This bar that she was at with him is called Willill McCoy's and it was very close to where Melissa was the Pepperoni Pizza where she had gone up there to visit her friend, and people theorized that he was in there. Somebody tasked about later that he was in there after

he came to light. And what's interesting, they don't know if he gave her a ride, probably not, that that might be more likely he followed her all the way home when the head of her got out and attacked her in a darkened part of the neighborhood. Because there was a woman I see in the book at the unlikely hour of like eleven o'clock out breaking the leaves, and she heard one scream pierce the night air. So stories like this were coming to light. Nobody had interviewed

Leslie palm Mener. She is in the record. That's the fact as to what Bundy tried to do with her on February eighth in Jacksonville, try to kidnap her from a kmart parking lot until her brother showed up. But all these people came forward. So in Ted Bunny's mur Mysteries, I've published these. I published more things about the record with commentary and other things, which is very interesting, digging deeper in the record about the victims. So I get

done with that two days after it's published. I got to tell you when I when the book I might have published. I like to relax. I like to take some time and just relax, see other books, doing do some interviews. I'm not thinking about any other books. That was going to be it for me. I was contacted by Fella and he does a lot of work in the Civil War area, but he's got a really interested in Ted Bundy. So he said, have you never thought about doing a encyclopedia of Ted Bundy? I said that

just book. My publisher just published this book on on Bundy. It's the fourth book. It's supposed to be the final book. I said no, and then I said, you know what, I think I'll table that for now. He said, well, I'll do it. I would do it myself, and I'm just too busy. I said, well, it's a good idea,

I admit it. So a couple of days later I kept feeling good about it, feeling good about it, so I called my publisher and I said, I thought maybe the publisher would say, oh no, we're really not interested right now. I could say, oh good, you can put it only shelf to treat it. But they liked the idea. So here I go again on the fifth book. But it was different. It was an encyclopedia, and there is nothing out there on Bundy like it. There are psyched

encyclopedias of killers, obviously, but nothing exclusively about Buddy. So I wrote the book. It was kind of a fun book to write because I was able to delve into the lives of a lot of people that were a part of the story, be a newspaper, writers or somebody else, but beyond their role there, I didn't know a lot about them, so I kind of got I was able to dig into their stories and so it was interesting

to write. So that was published. So I, you know, after a while, I had the feeling I said, you know, there's some other avenues that more people have contacted me. There's some other avenues that I would like to explore with Ted Bundy that have to do with a lot of questions and controversies and things that heretofore have not been answered or certainly have not been answered to a substantial way. And I said, between that and some other things I've got going with the book and the new interviews,

I'm going to do one last Bundy book. And so I have done it. I'm so happy that I did it. I did something that I never really thought I would do. In twenty in two thousand and eight, two thousand and seven eight, I interviewed I mean, I interviewed a lot of people for the book to Bunny burse but some of them I interviewed on tape, and those on tape were Jerry Thompson, Don Patch, and On Holmes. I even

interviewed Jim Massey, but I couldn't locate the tape. So I wrote a piece about Massy in the sixth book, covering a lot of things he told me. But I transcribed all of these other three tapes and it was like it was like I had forgotten so much of it. It's so interesting to see these now in that people can read their transcribed those will be in the book, and so there's just a lot in there. So I was really glad I did this last sixth book and that'll be out in late November. That's the last I

heard from my publisher. So it's been a long run I've written. After this new book book is published, it's going to be a little over fourteen hundred pages, and that's a lot of writing about one man in one case. But because the case is so voluminous, covering so many people in so many states. But I've left a great body of work for people concerning Ted Bundy, and that makes me really happy because it makes me feel like

I've really done my job. But it all started with the Bundy Mers and it just you know, it's it's been a great ride. But I got to tell you it was an unexpected one.

and you were right there. What I like to say, in real time, as all of these events occur, be they with Bundy or be they with the victims, potential victims, Susan Rancourt, Georgie and Hawkins, everybody. And you know a lot of people have said that, not writing they said, they say they I heard it again just the other day from a couple of people. They said, you're a really good storyteller. And I said, well, that's interesting, and

the one person said, really good storyteller and narrator. And I said, funny that you should say that about storytelling, because I said, two of these documentary people from two different networks, once they interviewed me and I did the shoots, both of them said, and I never said a word about it. They said, you know you are a really good storyteller. So I said to this lady the other day, I said, well, I said, you know that it's true.

That's how I wanted to present the story. And I said, I guess you could put it in terms of being a good storyteller, because I had people, I have the reader following following right along with Bundy, and it just I knew by doing it that way it was going to shape the book a little bit differently than what

other writers have done. And also I had the benefit of writing my book some twenty years after the events, which allowed some of these detectives to open up more like Mike Fisher did and tell me things that he otherwise wouldn't have if I'd gotten hold of him back when Bundy was just being being put to debt. But it's the way I told the story, and it's resonated with people and they really like it from that as now, I don't consider my book in competition with any other

Bundy book. It's just different. That's the only thing I can say about. It doesn't have no information, or it did as a twenty twelve A lot of people have taken that information and used it in publication since that time, and of course that's fine. It's really fine if they give me credit for it, but if they don't, it's still out there. And it was out there in twenty twelve, I mean two thousand and nine when the book was published.

So I think it just goes back to how I decided to write the book, and people feel like it's kind of up close and personal, and that's the way I wanted to do it, and thankfully I've had a knack for it, and it really paid off in writing a book like The Bundy Murders, because I got to follow his life through so many states and through so many years, and I took the same approach to the victims as they would come into his life and disappear. It's just kind of like that up close and personal look wait.

Al Carlisle, William hagg Meyer from retired FBI agent. And so what you did is you filled in, as you write, all the gaps. And so what we want to start with is in this incredible story in January of nineteen seventy four, where Ted Bundy is showing his face but still we do not know. No one knows the nature of this beast. But January thirty, first you talk about Linda Ann Healy's twenty one years old, and she's a senior at the University of Washington at Seattle, and she's

near her graduation. But unlike many other books, you take us to January fourth, nineteen seventy four, a few weeks before this, to Terry Caldwell and that's not a real name, but to tell us what happens on January fourth, to inform us how things must have happened on January thirty first, So tell us about January fourth, nineteen seventy four and Terry Caldwell before we talk about Linda Heey's disappearance.

use it as a pseudonym in this case. I felt like I had to because someone told me years ago that Karen Sparks was not the real name. Well be that as it may. So I've got three pseudonyms in the book. That's one of them, but I used to Terry Caldwell. I'll do the other one with Diane Edwards because I write a lot about her and I did that for legal reasons, so I gave her a pseudonym, and I do it with the doctor that was with Karen Campbell and doctor and Katowski, your boyfriend in there,

I call him doctor Brinkman. It's really doctor Rosenthal. But

those are only three. But in any event, if you notice the murdered Bundy started attacking women in the wee hours of the morning and would gradually back it up to earlier times in the evening and by the time he got and he was seen, which was probably the first time where he exposed themselves to potential victims on the campus of CWSC where he got Susan Rancourt at around ten o'clock on April seventeenth, but he exposed up a little bit in the late afternoon, but then he

went back to all nighttime abductions until his blinding light of day double attack at La Samamish on July fourteenth, nineteen seventy four, that created so much stirring of everybody, and so many people saw him and gave composite drawings that he went back into the shadows. Nobody ever talked about this before, and I don't even talk about this.

The Bundy murder This is something I've come to more recently and spoke about it for the first time publicly at this at the Hunting the Hunters conference in Pittsburgh back in September. But he goes back into the darkness after that because I think he knew he created. He kind of bit off more than he could shoe with with that large daylight attack with forty thousand people were

there under the beautiful sun at La Samanas. Okay, and you won't see him again do a daylight attack that we know of until Denise Oliverson, which happens in you know, like the spring of seventy five. Anyway, on It's Bundy was the first attack. He may have killed before nineteen seventy four. That's fine. I think he did. Even told Bob Capell, Yeah, there was one of these, seventy three, he said, seventy two, but then immediately backed out. I

think he allowed to Keple. He took it back, he said, oh no, no, no, that could be someone that's very young that he didn't want to talk about. But he attacked this lady named Karence Parks. Karen lived in a basement apartment in the University district. She was not a student, and there were some other guys in the house that she lived in a basement apartment and you could actually stare into her room if the curtains weren't closed, but

they had a habit of leaving the back door unlocked. Well, I do not believe for a second Bundy just stumbled in there. He was a peeping tom. He was all over those there. He started that we know of going and looking at the windows in seventy two, maybe even a little bit earlier, where he would just you know, walk around and look and he'd steering and he would masturbate in the bushes if he saw a naked woman do a thing. This is what he did. But he

must have seen her, he knew she was there. But anyway, got down in her apartment, no doubt do that, down locked door and he was. He had a speculum with him. And where they think that he obtained the speculum. He had worked for a Medico, a medical supply company, and from that supply company he had Pilford plaster of Paris authority to think he took the speculum from there, and he may have gotten crutches from there because he had clutches, list all the crutches. Later he lied about who they

belonged to. It he's I had to give them back or whatever. But he goes in there and he severely beats this woman and he ends up ramming this speculum up her vagina. He did a lot of damage there. He did a lot of damage to her skull. And and I'm sure when he I'm sure when he left he believed that she was going to expire, you know, she would die. So he didn't carry her out like he would do with the next abduction with Linda and Ely. So he left her and he couldn't know that convinced

that she would die. Well, the next morning, one of the guys looked in on her, but she was sleeping, the covers were up, you know, they didn't bother her. And then but at seven thirty at night that very night, one of the guys who had hurt she was sleeping in the morning looked in on her. She still hadn't moved, so they went in. They uncovered the blanket or whatever. She was beaten so severely. I mean, they didn't even

know if she was dead. She was either looked dead or hery looked like she was close, close to death. Lena Abulance was called and they came and got her. She spent thirty days in the hospital. I believe she was in a coma for ten. But she did survive and she's out there now. Now here's what I think Bundy did. I think Bundy was perturbed and he said to was, I can't prove this, but there's a lot of circumstantial weight behind it because of how vastly different these attacks were.

So we attacked Terence Barkser. Terry call was in and I looked on January fort seventy four at the on January thirty first of seventy four, I believe Bundy was in Dante's tavern, and Dante's tavern is just a couple of blocks one then he was playing something in the book. Both both lookal edacations. It's an easy walk. And she went with two of her friends, and she went with

a guy named Pete Neil. Pete Neil is know, he's just a friend that he had a brush with history and his name name is going to forever be enshrined with going and seeing them at the house, going to Dante's with them and as they came home, he went in the house. He had to catch the Mount forty one bus. Fact that his area of town. So we grabbed some record album said he wanted to take back on with him that were his. And Bunby told the

writer Stephen the show about concerning that night. Of course, all of the third person that he went to the front that he in other words, it's like he followed them home. He went to the front door and he checked it, turned the knob and the door opened. He did not enter the door at that time. Now, this won't be as soon as they returned home, but he had been watching the ass and he did it. And he said, so you know, you know the show says,

what did you enter entered at that time? He said, no, I left and I came back in the middle of the night, so he said, but he had no compunction about going through people's homes in the middle of the night. So this is fine. It makes me think that he very well may have killed and reverbed. We don't know.

He certainly alluded to it. With all the denials, he alluded to it and really themselves to it with with Ron Holmes and you'll hear about fat people that that I write about it a little bit in The Bundy Murders, but you'll you'll actually hear the or you'll be able to read the transcript from Holmes. But so he goes back and and he gets in there. Now it makes this thing surreal. And I've always said that, you know, all the time out Suddy Murder, I had never found

an abduction more surreal and more weird than this. He goes in in the middle of the night. He without question, he must have entered through the front door. He goes down and they think women are just they're in the different rooms. But in the basement there's Karen Skevene might be scavellm but it's but she's down and she's on the right. As you go down the steps, there's a side door that leads down the steps. The side door

is closer to the front of the front door. You come up the front walkway and you hit a there's a first set of steps and there's a walkway that leads to the right of the house. I doubt if he entered that way because the guards dried the front door. He walked up the second steps, entered the front door, made his way to the basement. Some people think that maybe he targeted Healey. I think I don't know if that's true. I think he targeted the women there. And

he gets down to the base. When you walk down these basement steps, I got a picture of it in the book, and there's a when it booms out that there's three more steps to the right. There's an old kind of vacuum cleaner there that was sitting there. The police took a shot of this, and so he goes downstairs, turn of the right. When he gets down to the right, he's faced with two rooms that are separated, and they're individual rooms, but they're really only separated by pain and

partitions of plywood. They don't have a lot of privacy. But when then Heally was straight in front of him and Karen was on the right, well, he goes in there, no doubt, shuts the door. Some people have mistakenly think that Bundy club Heeally, but that's not true. We know it's not true because there's no blood spatter. There's only

blood flow on the bed. And what he told Michelle, when Michelle, you know, I wanted to know how this person did that, he said, well, you'd have to I think Bunny says, so like you have to go into the physiology of choking somebody and how a nosebleed can happen from that. And so you're Linda sleeping. She didn't even go to sleep until probably around one or something. I think Karen next door. I think she went down the basement. She said, I was sleep probably around one thirty.

But he choked her. She must have awakened and then choked her and choked her back into unconsciousness. She had a nose bleed. Here's what he does. He takes you know, once she's out cold, you know, choking somebody. You have to assume that he's on top of her, and maybe she's kicking and making some noise, even if it's so sticking against the up and down on the bed, who knows. But he's not bothered by that. Once he gets her unconscious, he takes the nighty off and hangs up in the closet.

He grabs a believe it was a red backpack, put some clothes in it, takes her off the bed. He would either have had to put her in a chair probably or on the floor, probably a chair, and then he makes the bed. But I like to say in military fashion, because it was a really well made bed. And there was two things about that. It was a week night, it was actually a Friday night. Well actually it was a Thursday night, Thursday night morning early Friday morning when when he did this, so it was still

the weekday. And Karen, I mean, Glynna never made her bed during the week because she had to be at Northwest Promotions doing the weather reports that you know that morning before she's in class two hours or four hours later, what have you. She never made her bed and the other people did. And so the residents testified to that, and they said, not only does she not make the bed during the week, but she can't make it like that, it's too well made. So he grabs her and we

don't know. He probably wrapped her in a blanket. I think he covers with the show that she wasn't trust I can't imagine him trying to dress her, but he took some clothes to back back with her. Now, when you come out the side door, you can do two things. You can turn to the right and go down to the sidewalk and you'll have one short flight of steps

to go down. There're steepend. I mean, you know, you can do it you're carrying somebody, or you can take a left go to the backyard and there's there's a fence and there's no gate. But he would have had to have laid her down kind of like dropped her

over the fence. And the alleyway is really narrow, but there is an alcove I think a little bit down from there where he could have parked the VW because if he parked it right there at that gate, it kind of effectively blocks another car from going around, and he wouldn't have one of that. But you know, when I was describing this on on ABC, you kind of

get both both. I believe I gave both scenarios, and they used the one and that's a great Dog that ABC Dot twenty twenty, which they replayed a year later and then put Liz Kendall and her real daughter in it. And I'm still there in all those scenes and they even add some. But but in any event, uh, And they went with the wall where he took her down the front steps, and that maybe exactly what he did, or he could have gone out the fact play and one way or another he had his car closed up

by Still. This was bold, exceedingly bold, Douglishman. It's a bold of abduction. Never heard anything like it. And he gets her in the car and off she goes, Well, what do I think he did that for? Why didn't he just sexually assault her and then just make sure he killed her there? Well, for two reasons. I think one he wanted to make sure that she really was dead, But two, I think he had a desire to play with her some at the place where he was going to murder her and then leave her body, or they

could have been two several locations. So he does that and uh, you know, of course, you know here comes But oh when something else happened, which I absolutely believe it's Bundy, we can't prove it. The following day, I should say, since she disappeared in the middle of the night the early morning, everybody gets up there wondering where she is. It's kind of worrisome. Her bike is there. They think she had a nosebleed with mom. But the

bike's there. As she wouldn't walk away. She wasn't didn't show up in classes that day, She never came home. She was having her parents there that night and her brother for dinner and she had never come home, and so her comes, you know, they have to. The father comes over. He feels so sorry for the father of the brother, and they you know, they don't know what to do. And father calls the wife. Mister Healy calls and don't come over, she said. He called up his no,

I think I'll wait a while. She said no, and then she said, okay, like I'll handle it, and she called herself. Patrolman comes over. But around eight point thirty that night, and throughout the night, a couple I think the two calls or maybe walking through where you know, one of the young women answered it and instead of anybody talking, she could hear breathing on the other end. But the person, I have to think that's Ted Bundy and he was a game player and I think he

had known about that house. I don't know if he was hunting for Linda per se. I frankly think he just zero then maybe wrecking as Linda maybe recogn that's one of the other ones too, because he was a UW Steven as well, and he followed them hall. So I think that's probably how this thing occurred. But it's a fantastic and odd a strange abduction, and so that's how he pulled that one off. Third the difference between parent Sparks and Lyndan Healey, but yet in a strange way.

I think they might be kind of leaked. He was gonna, I mean linked, He was going to make sure that the Heally abduction didn't end up like the Spark attack, which calls her to be able to live.

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zip recruiter slash murder. That's ZipRecruiter dot com slash murder now, Kevin, we were talking about the strange abduction of and the next yes, sorry, Linda and Heally. And another woman that you you talk about shortly after this is Donna Manson, and again she you you write that she was likely

unaware of Terry Caldwell or Linda and Heally. And what you read about here with Donna Manson is the way, especially early on and probably throughout this, but especially early on, where people dismissed the disappearances, even though they were quite strange disappearances because of certain circumstances or characteristics of that victim. Again, we're talking about the seventies, and no one has any

experience with serial killers and their behavior. So tell us a little bit about Donna Manson before we talk about Kathleen Dolivio.

all this natural beauty and it works well. And when I was there in the twenty fifteen, it's a beautiful place. But it's also this It also can be quite creepy when you think in terms of murderous cereal killers, abductions, because what you have on the campus, you have a lot of trails on that campus, and when students are walking the trails, whether they're find themselves or with the group,

it doesn't matter. They're encased in trees. And so the story goes, and the facts are Donna on the early evening that she was in the You have to get to kind of look at it. The first year dorms was to the right, a pretty good distance of where she was going. Nobody had identified until my book, The Trail of Ted Bundy, taking up the Untold Stories. Everybody knew that Donna was heading to a jazz concert somewhere

on the campus, but nobody really knew where. So when I went to Evergreen State College, I went to the archives department and lo and behold, there's a guy named Randy there. He had started work there in nineteen seventy four, it says twenty fifteen, and he was still there. So I asked him if there was a way if we could find out exactly where that jazz concert was. So

and I got the tour of the campus. He said, I'm going to have to do some really in depth research about this to see if I can locate it. So he said, give me your number, and I said sure, And so you know, I said, okay, well, you know we'll be in touch. So I leave the campus, My wife and I leave taking photographs. We've you know, walked over there everywhere. This guy's uh, this guy's office was down in the basement area of the library, and I

have a picture of the library in the book. Anyway, a number of days later he contacts me and he sends me some files and I open them up, and one of them is a like the the Evergreen State College like bulletin that was published in their newspaper what have you. And for the evening of her disappearance the jazz concert there, it is right there on the publication. And it occurred within the library. So when she left her uh, her dorm, she was walking by herself. She

had her grandmother's code on. I stay in the book. It must have felt really good because it was a little drizzly cool, and it was cool, and she headed off down this trail was we know the trail she probably there's two trails, but she would have been going out of a way to take the other one. So we know the trail that she was on. And near that trail there is a and I talk about this more also in the sixth books that's coming after. There's

a road right next to it. Now we don't know if she ever made it to the library, but we don't think so from what we know, you know, she probably disappeared on that trail, well perhaps right if she cleared it, if Bundy were hanging out near an area by the library but nobody remembered seeing, or the jazz concert was on the first floor. Cops did energies, nobody

saw her. Nobody can recall seeing her outside on the concrete areas or in the area where you know she would have been if she would, let's say, ran into

somebody and would be talking to them. So it chances are and we don't know, but it may be that Bundy parked on that road like it's a service road, I think, and either way later and carried her a short distance to his car, or because Donna liked to do drugs and things like that and she wasn't the greatest student, and I talk about that in the book, he may have lured her away through the use of drugs. We don't know, but we do know that we do

suspect and I say we are all the research. I mean I do as a researcher, and I think other people do too. That once it came out where she was going to and it was published for the first time in my book The Trailer of Ted Bundy. Then you look at a map of it and you know where she was in her first year dorm and where the library is and the trail you have to cross. Everybody had comes to the same conclusion that nobody saw

her up in the library or outside of it. There's no reports of that, no matter how many people they interviewed. She had to have disappeared on the trail, and probably the trail was empty. So because everybody else I wanted to get to the library probably got there sooner and maybe was coming from another direction. So you know that's but it's an interesting college, but you look around it just it's perfect for a predator. And Bundy had to

have recognized this. So and you know she's also the person that when you know she's a Washington State murder. Kevil was talking to the Bundy about this. He asked some details about it, and Bundy must have been really inebriated.

Maybe not so much as he grabbed her, but as he took her, probably unconscious, or as soon he made her unconscious on the way out of the school campus or whatever he did, he probably knocked her out, uh, and then he probably just heavily got because he said, it's all like a blur, It's almost like a dreamlike kind of thing, and he didn't really want to discuss it all that much. But yeah, it's a strange abduction.

going into medicine. She kept a four point zero average even though she was working and.

over the Cascade Mountains. And it's funny because you know, Bundy had a good friend, He had two good friends growing up, and they were Terry Storwick and one Dodge. They were best friends, the three of them. And when he made that trip over to Central Warston State College in Ellensburg now it's called Central Warston University, Terry Storwick was there. I mean he was. I think he still had some classes there, and I think he had a girlfriend there and whatever. But Bunny could have run into her.

But he wanted to go there and he wanted to go hunting. And it's clear that he hunted on a couple of days, a couple of different days there, but on the night that he got Susan Rancourt at ten o'clock, he was actually in the afternoons spotted there by some people, including a fellow named Kent Barnard that is in the record. And then I interviewed Kent for the Trail of Ted Bundy and he elaborated on more things about Bundy that just didn't show up on the record where he's spotted

him later that nine or whatever. But but but you know, interesting guy to talk to, but he didn't get anybody. He tried to abduct another woman and that that didn't work out for him.

you walk to the side of the Bullion Library. There it is situated between and there's a pretty good distance not you know, but it's situation between the between the library, and then you're looking on a building that's facing the side of the library a little distance away called Black Hall, not the Black Hall of today where it's been added to and it's an H shape with a connecting corridor. There was just one building and today there's buildings all

around this area. And at the time that Bunny was there, there was just Black Hall facing one building facing the side of the library, and then there was a small building called the Group Conference Center. And then between the Group Conference Center and the library there was a man made pond and a bridge you had to walk over. And people that read the record will be you know,

they'll be able to see this about the bridge. Bundy had parked in an area now in the area behind the library and going past the library where it would be in front of Black Hall, and then there's just nothing. This is where a railroad line used to go through and there was a railroad to Rustle Park there. It was in Bundy parked in a no parking area in the most desolate area on the campus he could find and not well lighted, overgrown with grass, and he had parked.

I mean, you take a look at that, and you're a young woman, you think, you know what, I don't want to go there, but this guy seems to be normal. In any event, he parks there. At the time, there was a parking lot directly behind the library, but not where he had parked, and there was a parking lot like north of that. Today that's all one parking lot

and the drestle's gone. So I'm you know, with the help of a man, Dave Facebook friend and Dave Woodie, he's started all this out and grew exactly where that drestle ran through. And I've taken pictures of that spot and people have seen those. But at the time, you know, it was just a very desolate area. And I say, in the Bundy Murders, it's a great place to commit

a murder or at least again once. And by the time he reached uh area with the one woman that he didn't wasn't able to abduct, she had helped him with his books there and you know the Dlibo, you know, you know lady, she helped him with his books and when she got to the car, she was a little suspicious of him, of course, and she was ready to whack it with the books that she needed to And he's on no, you know, he has slaying on his arm.

He just looks like he's having a hard time. She sees that the passenger door, I mean the passenger seats out. But in any event, she doesn't go with him. She helps him, but then leaves. He doesn't have a chance to attack her. He had no doubt place the crowbar like he did in the Hawkins abduction and Julie Cunningham abduction. And he carried a short eighteen inches or seventeen seventeen and a half inch crow work serious model six five

seven seven. Maybe there's some competing my models, but there's a small pro bars, not the long ones. And he could easily wheeled that in his car. But he used to place that behind the sometimes like like the right tire or the rear in that rear area, like right by the right tire, so he could as they're helping he put in books or crunches, he could he could pull that tire out and whack them. He didn't get he didn't have a chance to do that, uh with

with the one girl. Turns out that when he ran into Susan Rancourt that night she had placed some she she had a meeting to become a dorm camp councilor on campus, and she had walked down a couple of blocks down from the library to a building called months in All. She lived on the other side of the campus on bart In Barrow Hall, and she when she was after she had the dorm counselor meeting, she was heading back to get her clothes out of the dryer.

That you know, she passed the library which she runs in the Bundy, not at the library, but I think the street a street or so before it, and somebody saw her and identified her by what she was wearing, and also identified a man who looked like he was in a daze, wearing like a ski Parker jacket. Okay, yeah, And so he must have went into her there did the helpless thing, you know. Susan Rancourt, a sweet girl,

not suspecting a thing, said she would help him. And of course this time, you know, his victim would not get away, and she made her way down there and they would have passed the exact same way between the library across the man made bridge. Then it seems across the man made bridge, which you can see today, even though the bridge is gone to pods gone, there's a newer cement that follows that trail. It's the same thing.

And then they would have angled off to the left and kept walking about one hundred and fifty feet, walked under the trestle and then around it where Bundy's called his barks so and then of course, and what was so extremely weird? Kid Barnard said that it was his birthday, April seventeenth, by the way, and he had gone he had gone to another He had gone to Central Washington State College to visit his girlfriend and dround and he saw him a couple of times. But he saw Bundy

a couple of times. I saw him up by the Arctic Circle, and that came out in the trailer of Ted Bundy. And then of course he had seen him earlier at the library, but he saw the strangest thing, you know. So he was with his girlfriend. By the time Bundy got rand Court and left the university, he was still there. Ken Bard was still there. He didn't leave until somewhat later. But he's on the highway on the way home and he looks up up at the hillside, but he sees a small set of round tail lights

glowing up there. That's the tail lights of Bundy's car. He's got Rand called up there, and so you know, he'll never forget that. And a nice guy had a good long conversation with him on the phone back in twenty I think late twenty fourteen or twenty fifteen, but I guess I guess the early twenty fifteen. But in any event, it's again and you know this thing about Bundy and his ability to snatch people without anybody really

seeing what was going on. And Bundy remarked that when he was talking to the show on the third person and he said, you know, like the last thing you wanted to do on the paraphrase that little bit is that the last thing you want to do is be seen by somebody walking somebody to your car. And but you know he was. But there were times also when he would lead somebody to an area and he said,

for some reason, I just called it off. And he had done that in the area of where Georgianne Hawkins would disappear in you know, you know that summer on June at eleven. But yeah, and so it worried him. Later he said, well, if anybody says, you know, well, I saw this weird guy two weeks before chasing. He walked me to his car, he said, said, you know, he lives in the district or where he drives the volks.

So it horrified him that because he let that one woman go, she could end up giving the Compson information on the hawk and abduction that could lead them right to him.

And why he chose to abduct two at La Samamish in one day, Chance Odd in the morning and Denise Mathlin in the afternoon is anyone's guest. I call it like a homicidal boast in the book. I do think he was really trying to make a statement. He felt like he was absolutely inventible. But what a place to hunt because the place was, as you say, forty thousand people. There were a lot of company picnics there. Even a police department was having a company picnic. But this just

didn't bother ted Bundy. And so it turns out that you know, he is able to give Jennis Odd that morning. But what is interesting, Jerry Snyder, a DEA agent, is sitting back with his dog and he watches this. His family, his wife and kids are there, but they're kind of like farthered away from him because the kids were going to the water on the beach and he couldn't take

the dog down that course. So he sat back. So he notices this guy coming down the right and he's looking at women, and he's stopping and looking and you know, and then he moved on. And then he makes his way to Janosid and he sees Janosid sitting there and they strike up a conversation. Now here's where something different comes in, because he sees he sees that Spider sees this.

This man who came to the right didn't stop and talk to anybody else, but he stopped and talked to Ot and then she offered him to sit down, and they begin talking. I don't know how much Snyder hears, but there's a young girl the name Valiant right next to him, within a few feet of them, and she's fifteen years old, Sylvia Vallophant, and she hears most of the conversation between Bundy and aunt, and she reports on

it later and Snyder backs it up. And so they have this conversation and Bundy is saying and he's got his arm and the flame and like he heard it, and he needed help with his sailboat. And she said, well, that means I get to ride in his sailboat. And he said, yeah, yeah, and I can teach you and said what about not buying? He said a little bit in the trunk and see people, you know you probably had to take the the you know, the one wheel off and but whatever he did, he got it in

the trunk. And so these people solve it.

like that Jaz overheard and she or something. But that's not what I've got. I've got to be a balanced statement a couple of days after Lake Samanash, I've got it in the file. She never said that Bundy talks to her. He goes straight over to odd Snyder, doesn't report that any that this man stopped with anybody and

talk to anybody until he got to that. And then I have another report where they came and visited where Kathy mc chesney I believe it was, went and visited the fifteen year old Sylvia Valance and in November of that year, long after the thing, and she doesn't bring up that she talked to Buddy. Also, I don't know

what happened there. I'm just saying that there is if anybody was watching that dog and knows the story and the reasonhy I'm bringing it up because I had a guy call me and say, look, this is that Ballant from the you know fifty Yeah, I say, yeah, that's her. Well, why why is she's saying she talked to Bundy because it's not on the record. I said, well, your guests as good as mine, because I got the testimony. I've

got her signed statement. She never mentions Bundy talking to her ever, and so I don't know, you know why that happened. Uh, and nobody else seemed to have seen it, So maybe she knows something that we don't. Bundy said something we don't know. I don't know anything about it. But because that's out there now and people have said something to me about it, I'm just letting you know that it's not in the original record. I'm not saying

it didn't happen. I'm saying that, you know, if Bundy did say anything to her, maybe it was a hall lord. I don't know. I'm just saying there's a discrepancy there and we don't know what's what. But yes, he ended up, you know, you know, you know, he got her off to agree with it to go. So she packed everything up and she went to the parking lot and a woman that he had tried to abduct, that even walked with him to his car, and she wanted to help

with the post. She said, there's no boat, there's no trailer. He said, oh, it's that my parents house something. It's a cloth.

long to find somebody else. And you know, she's really the last one to I guess pay any attention to out because she's with Bundy. But it's an interesting if it's a terrible abduction, it's a bold abduction. And again he would come back later that afternoon. Abductee Denise Stantlin actually give her willingly follow him to his car and obviously there's no ball, so he said he must have done the same thing. Is that my parents out in the support and then bam.

Ted's girlfriend, Liz Kendall July sixth, seventy four tell us about how it comes to be that, even despite her care for Ted Bundy, she suspects him of these abductions and murders. Tell us how it seems to be that she thinks that, Yeah, well, you know, it's really interesting.

But one thing about Liz, when she thought that there might be something wrong with Ted, there could be some issues there and maybe he could be the one, she did do the right th thing that she made a call. But what really precipitated the first call was after uh, you know, the authorities knew of an abductor out there, and they got some composite drawings and with lakes of Mannish and after, you know, after these girls have gone Missy, she has one of her co workers one morning come

up to her some guys. I think he was trying to make a joke and be funny, but he said, look at this composite drawing, Liz, and it's got Look. They're looking for a Ted who drives a Volkswagen, and he is doesn't this guy kind of look like your Ted? Of course, I'm sure they laughed. He thought it was funny. He probably didn't even suspect from Ted Bundy, her boyfriend, of being involved in it. But that did bother her. And of course, you know, Bundy had done something that

had disturbed her a bit. She noticed that by nineteen seventy four, his sexual excitement with her had started to wane because some of his sexual desires had changed, and now he wanted to tire her up, and he wanted to have sexual I wanted to have an intercourse, and she said no to that. She allowed him to be to tire up on a couple occasions. She remarked, and

I have this in the new edition. I quote, I quote the prosecutor who had given an interview with the Atlantic Journal Constitution newspaper, and he talks about how Liz was allowing him to like just choke her, you know a little bit, because he wanted to do that. And she said that, and so Pester said Dave Yoakam, he said it frightened her because she tried to get him. It looked like he wasn't there. And when she tried to get him to stop, he wouldn't come too right away.

And he was in this altered state of murder, fantasizing, not wanting to kill her, but definitely had passed from this world into that internal world and it was real different. So she she put a stop to all that. But I also point out which is interesting if you want to look at the psychology of Bundy and the things that would happen to him and others when they go into these altered states of murder. When they took a raft trip down the Yakima on a beautiful day, he

was fine. That morning. They get in the Yakama, I mean, I mean they get in the rafting, they're going down

the river. They already have plans to have lunch. They but somewhere through the before they have lunch on and their rafting, he starts to change, he starts to become moody, he starts to become quiet, and uh, I think it's because he was commuting with someone, that he was in the geographical area close to where he had kidnapped and murdered Susan Rancourt, So that could have been all his mind. That he was definitely passing into a different state of mind.

And I think that comes from kind of fantasizing. You know, he's trying to look at Liz and talk, but he's also thinking about this and stuff is rising up. So they stop and have lunch. He's still quiet, but you know, at least they're together. They're having lunch, and then they get back in the raft and they're going down to the yakama, and I think her book says before like an hour is out, for no reason, he pushes her

off into the into the yakama. So she's you know, it's all very sudden, and she comes up as she gasped me for breath. She said, when I looked at him, his face was blank. It's like he wasn't there, absolutely blank. That was the monster being revealed. That was Bundy in that altered state of murder and so I'm just you could occasionally see things like this, and I really know I remember the one. I can't remember if it's Jane Curtis or the Deolibel woman, but I had to check

my book. But one of the women noticed that when she was offering help to Bundy at at CWSC at the Bullying Library area during the afternoon. His eyes looked fine. But as they traveled down the you know that walkway, and they go on that bridge and they're heading across them, and they're starting to go left to his car somewhere in there. For some reason, she turns it look sett him and his eyes looked very weird, and she noticed the difference and they were not that way when she

first saw him. And I know that he's going into that altered state. So I asked Al Carlisle about that, and Al said, well, you know, there are a lot of testimonies from women who say that the eyes of these men change change like this right before they were attacked. He wasn't really talking about Bundy in this case, just

other things that other case studies he knew of. And he said, I think it's a neural transmitter, a temporary neural transmitter thing that does this, and so you can see that while Bundy is making himself presentable to her, and he's up in front of the library or a little bit on the side of it wherever he was by the bicycle ricks. They said, at some point he doesn't know that he's going to have her, but he's trying,

and his eyes are clear. And then as he's walking down and he's sensing he's going to have her, that altered state starts to come to the surface. There it is, and it's resonating in his eyes. That's not a whole lot different from what Lives encountered. But Lisen's encounter was even farther ahead in that altered state. Because he's choking her, she can't bring him too for a second. And when he pushes her out of the boat, i mean the raft and she comes out of the water, his face

is blank. He's not there, and she knows it, and it took him a second to come back to himself apparently pull her in the boat. And then then of course Bundy tries to blow it off. She was very upset with him doing that, which is menvil. He said, Oh, it was just a joke. See it wasn't a joke, and so you got to ask herself. Did Bundy question himself at that point, thinking I'm having it a problem

controlling this. He may have done that, but these things have a life of their own, and as you know, as as the time rolled on and the murders went on, you can see where Bundy had a harder time controlling, you know, some of these things. It's really an interesting thing to look at.

He's on a suspect. He's on a suspect list of one hundred people. But as you write, everything else about Ted Bundy does not does not produce any kind of suspicion, does it, right.

And I said to myself, and of course he's on trial and there for the attempted or the kidnapping and murder of Karen Campbell, but he was suspective of others and Martin and states that was the first I ever heard of the man. But my first question was this, how on earth does a law student come under this kind of suspicion. So people that saw Bundy knew Bundy, and uh, you know, just didn't look like he could be the man because here he is a college graduate,

a law student. He went to the law school for the first semester. Uh uh at the at huge in Sound Huget Sound College. He was a political campaigner. He'd been written about in the newspaper. He knew Richard Larson, who was worked for the Seattle Times. Larson had interviewed him. I mean he didn't look like the man that would do this. So yeah, his name popped up, and there was three different people. Liz was one, the professor. Now the what was his name, his assistant professor I think

made the call, but uh, his name is Katzenbaum. But but but the actual actual professor, it's in the book. It's so it's funny. He or his office made a call and said, look, the professor said, I have a weird guy in my class who drives like a nineteen sixty eight Bolkswagen. I think he would be worth checking out. His name is Dad and Bundy, so that lives in

another source. All led to him being put on this suspects list of the top one hundred, and they figured that they could go to that one hundred in about a year. But nobody that really looked at Bundy. There was nothing there that fell up a red flag where they said, oh, you know, we need to look at him closer. What happened was is that as Bundy was coming to the top of that list, he was the next man to be looked at. It happened that it

didn't happen before nineteen seventy five. While Bundy was in in Utah, and when Bundy came on their radar there, they made an inquiry. The sault like made an inquiry. In fact, it was actually been Forbes. Terry Thompson's partner called up there and said, look, we got this guy named Buddy down here and he's being accused of some things. And Bundy's final had just come to the top. He was the next person there to be looked at in

a far more closer manner. And it's almost like I think I say in the book, like the gods of chance and circumstance, we're saying that that moment, here's your killer of women, come get him. But it was a very very odd thing that occurred, and yeah, it was certainly a need occurrence.

A Comprehensive History, second Edition, Part two. So thank you very much, Kevin Sullivan, and we will talk to you next week for the Kid, part two of the Bundy murders.