THE BUNDY MURDERS-Kevin Sullivan

have written about them. Theatre Bundy was one of the more most infamous and flamboy and American sewer killers on record, and his story is a complex mix of psychopathology, criminal investigation, and the US legal system. This in depth examination of Bundy's life and his killing spree that total dozens of victims is drawn from legal transcripts, correspondence, and interviews with detectives and prosecutors. Using these sources, new information on several

murders is unveiled. The biography follows Bundy from his broken family background to his execution in the electric chair. My special guest this evening is Kevin Sullivan. We're going to be discussing the book The Bundy Murders, a Comprehensive History. My special guest and journalist and author Kevin Sullivan, Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Kevin Sullivan, Well, thanks Dan, it's.

best selling books. Why did you decide to write a book about Ted Bundy? What did you think you could bring to the official record?

books had been written about Ted Bundy. And a friend of mine, James Massey, he was employed about probation par role here in Kentucky for over twenty years and occasionally we would talk about the Bundy case because Jim is good friends with retired detective Jerry Thompson out of Utah, And for those people who don't know, Thompson is the detective who kind of unmasked Bundy when Bundy was arrested.

Soon after, Bundy was arrested on what they thought was suspicion of burglary because of some things he had in his car. And then once Bundy came the light in connection with the missing and murdered girls in Utah, of course, you know, they traced it back home to the murders of Washington State, and in the whole world knew. But Jim Massey had been friends with Jerry for a good number of years, and so in two thousand and five

I got a call from Jim one night. He said, listen, Jerry Thompson and his wife, they're coming to Louisville and would you like to have dinner. I said, sure, I think that would be great because this would be an opportunity to meet a guy that was all a damous case, but I never believed anything would come from it. Well, when he came to Louisville, he brought head Bundy's murder kid, which I knew he had, but we didn't know that he was going to bring it to Louisville, but he

knew Jim wanted to see it. So Jim called me, and I got to see this stuff, and Jerry was here in Louisville for several days. Jim got to keep the bag. I brought it to my house. I got to interview Jerry, and he even gave me, and he gave Jim also one of the green trash bags from Bundy's car that Bundy used to put his victim's clothes in these bags, and he would dump the clothes off at a location separate from where he put the bodies.

But anyway, when this occurred, it sparked something in me and I thought, well, it's going to translate into an article for Snitch. Snitch was a weekly print newspaper that at one time was running in five or six states, I believe five states, and by two thousand and five it was only running editions in Louisville and Lexi in Kentucky.

But so I wrote an article for Snitch because this whole thing was so surreal, bringing the bag to my home, putting the stuff out on the dining room table, just as Bundy used to carry it into his house, and so we photographed that. I wrote an article with Snitch. However, that thing that is intrinsic with writers when they get interested in something. I just hated to write a book about Bundy. And people said, you really don't need to,

because you know, Bundy's been done quite a bit. But there was just that something, an instinct within me, a drive, if you will, to just go ahead and push out, because I'm I was always very good in in investigating kind of things and finding people that were part of a story. And and then I've always been good in letting my personality shine and they would talk to me.

So so I'm going to see what's here. Turns out that once I got, you know, halfway through the book, I was uncovering numerous things that had never been in before about these murders, and so the book really developed its own unique flavor. And then after I got into it, I began to see that most of the books that have been written about Ted Bundy were written about people that had direct contact with him, and many of those

were published years and years ago. Some of the more recent ones were by attorneys and stuff, but the ones, the really main books are like Bob Kepple's Stephen Michau and Hugh Hainsworth the only living witness, and I think the only books two books that have been written by people that didn't note ed my book, The Bundy Murders, and then Stephen Wynn and David Merrill's The Killer next Door.

So everybody else had a connection to Bundy. So you know what, when you go into something like that, you're not so sure how it's going to turn out. I thought, though I can produce a good book, I had absolutely no idea how many new things that I would discover

and how forthright some of these detectives would be. In fact, I called William Hagemeyer one day during my research and I mentioned the name of a girl that Bundy killed, Lynette Culver out of And I don't want to get ahead in the story, but I mentioned something to build it.

Even he didn't know, and Bill sat in with every confession Bundy ever made, and yet Bill said, if you ever found out, and I'll tell more about this later, but he said, if you can confirm what you told me, which he had his doubts about it, he said, let me know. And I did confirm it later on, and then told him why he didn't know it. But we can get into that later. But these are the kind of things that proved to be somewhat shocking to me because I was like a novice then discovering these things.

And yet here I thought everything about Theodore Bundy has been known, and that wasn't the case at all.

are some new things to learn. But I knew that as a researcher and as a writer, I could produce a book that would be very good. The thing that I didn't know and then is that I could produce one that had so many new things in it and in essence would have a very unique flavor of its own. For instance, I think I followed the murders very closely. I follow his trail, you know, very closely, and like I say, scattered throughout the book or many new aspects

of this case that had never come out before. And I know the fellow the runs the the Wikipedia site on Ted Bundy, He's gotten a copy of my book and he cites four or five things that I'm assuming are not, of course, in the other books. When we get into the murder of Lynnette Colbert, basically before my book, very little was known about that murder. But I was able to dig into it and find out things from

the people involved in them in the investigation. And again that's the case where William Hagma just did not have the information, and really there's no reason why he would have because it came out in a different way and was not in just the regular confession that he attended. But again we can get into that later, but these are the little unique things that make my book so different.

very short with a man. They believe his name is Jack Worthington. He was a sailor that, as I say my book, blew in from the Second World War. But he didn't have any intention of fathering anything well, these things, once Bundy learned them later, they were traumatic to him. But the things that he would learn later can't explain away some of the odd things from his childhood, because

we know Louise was exceedingly good to him. Louise loved him, just like she loved all the children that came later. So it wasn't anything within Leui, and it wasn't anything with his stepfather, or not a stepfather, but his adoptive father, Johnny Bundy. That's where he gets his name Bundy. So

it's not anything intrinsic to how they raised him. But for example, when they were living in Philadelphia, an area of a Philadelphia, and she had gone back home with Theodore as a baby, and they stayed there a while, and one of Louisa's sisters, his aunt, said that she woke up one morning and Theodore had raised the covers of her bed and he was placing kitchen knives with the tip pointed at her around her body.

he was a child, she said it frightened her. So there were some significant things going on with Ted Bundy early on. It sounds to me like the fracturing of his personality happened early in his life for whatever reason, and then when the tough things came along in life, things that are genuinely not pleasant, he was not able to adapt and roll with the punches, and really things got worse, and the way he responded to it early

on he learned to live with a mask. Okay, he became Ted Bundy on the outside to people, and then the real person on the inside that he even he himself didn't understand. So you have a developing of a very odd character. And even though he can't explain it, he tried to compensate for it as he grew up, presenting certain masks even though he knew things weren't right on the inside. But at the time, this is before his predatory years. This is when he knew he was strange,

but he couldn't explain it. As that predatory personality developed, and there were additions of other things in his life, particularly sexual things fantasies but not the normal kind, mixed with violence against women, as those things came into his life that helped him build this predatory personality that he had, which of course ultimately.

who he thought his parents were actually his grandparents. Now, tell us when this happened and from all the research that you particularly did, not necessarily everyone else, But what you did was what did you find in terms of how traumatic was that event when he did find out, and when did he find out, and what were the circumstances in him being that information being revealed to him?

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birth certificate. And there's even two stories floating around about that I believe, and I covered this in the book, but I think one is he just discovered it on his own, or he got into a verbal argument with his cousin, and his cousin had he had knowledge of this right, and then he said something and then ted went and looked it up and then basically kind of internally came unglued. Now I'm not sure. I was never able to ascertain when he learned that his mother was

actually his mother. I think he learned that pretty early on. I think so, but I can't prove that. But I do know that at the illegitimate aspect, he didn't know until later. And that's one of the things I was talking about. It's never a nice thing or a pleasant thing to learn that your father took off. But if

you have a normal personality, you can adapt. These are the things that he could not handle, and it created significant rage in him, which was recorded later on by some people who were doing studies of him or you know, writing court reports and stuff. Things would come.

what I'm saying, and so they festered. These things festered within him.

This is the kind of person he aspires to. And it is almost almost like the Great Expectations story where he really he really doesn't fit in and that's one of his fears of being discovered in that way, and his biggest fear comes true. She rejects him. He's just not marriage material. His ambition and his desire and his potential, just not enough tell us about this woman and his effect, and also that the talk of these similarity in looks

characteristic wise the looks of a further victim. So tell us a little bit about both those.

She was a very very good looking a woman with that question, and I'm sure Theodore was a little intimidated by that. However, he did like her, and I don't know whether he viewed her as a prize or what. She also came from a wealthy family in San Francisco, and she was in his mind, I believe. And of course you got to remember, he's not thinking like you were me or or somebody else that you know, if you say something to they can relate in a normal way.

I don't know everything driving him in this relationship. But she would be I believe, in his mind, the epitome of what the kind of woman he would want right now. At the same time, I don't believe that he felt like he was up to her status and even and this is something that people miss sometimes, even in the relationship with her, he could not refrain from some sociopathic tendencies even with her, like she used to become irritated. So I've been told, and I've seen the reports where

he would use her credit card without asking. That doesn't that doesn't both well. I mean, you know, you ought to ask if he's not even married yet, it would it would it would both well if you ask your girlfriend if you could borrow a credit card. Apparently he had done that and she didn't like it. But the thing about Diane Edwards was is that And I talked to people that had ned Diane in social circles and they said she was a very nice lady, very nice looking.

The guy and one guy told me she's very nice looking, and so he you know, and I guess they thought that they made a good couple. But but when Ted started to have problems later academic because Ted would go from doing well academically to maybe not doing so well. This and other aspects of him, of her person of his personality that she didn't like. She eventually cut the

relationship off, which really damaged him. And then later and we can get into this later he came back and won her again right before he started committing murders, at least the murders of nineteen seventy four, and he could have committed murders pride of them. But in nineteen seventy four with delnda Ann Healing murder, that's when he said his course, and he said his face to nothing but murder, and he was going to keep killing until he was

called or killed or what have you. He was never going to stop, but he would then at a later date, right before the murders started, he won her back. But then it was not for any other reason other than to win in this situation and then redump her. But she had a profound effect on his life without question, and the similarities of a lot of the women she catch. She had long, dark hair parted in the middle right.

And if you look at photographs like the girl out that Carol Durance out of Utah, some of these other women. I mean that there are some that are very close to what you look like. Others are just a style of hair. And I know a lot of people have kicked that around. My opinion on this is that he did kill a certain type of woman. There was something

to the women that he chose. And even you know, you look at a girl like Susan Rancourt out of CWSC in Washington State enter Washington State College, which is you know, some distance from like Seattle and his normal killing ground. She had long hair part in the middle, but hers was more blonder like brown. But yes, there was something to the style of hair. He liked killing Caucasian girls. And you know, he wouldn't surprise me. We'll

never know. These are one of the mysteries, but it could date back to things with Diane Edwards women in general. God knows. He wanted connections with women, normal connections. He wanted to destroy women and he wanted to be loved by women. That makes any sense at all, He wanted both things from them. He wanted women to murder and

he wanted women who would care about him. But as a sociopath, his love vote and his commitment to them could only go so far because he was anything but normal internally.

the similarities and ages. Yeah, if you watch you know, criminal minds, you'd say, oh, here, here's this again, psychology one oh one, here's this correlation between destroying whomen look like this reminded him of his failure.

to think of pure evil. And I'm just gonna say this. You know, maybe people had different views, but full of tattoos. I know tattoos are popular now, but it used to be only people in prison. You can almost cage how many years they've done by how many tattoos. That's not the way it is now. But you know, the type of person that I'm talking about, where if you're they're walking down the street, you're gonna want to cross to the other side. He did not display any of those signals.

He's the kind of person that most women that came in contact with thought he was handsome, thought he was nice, wouldn't have had any problem going out on a date with him or what. And most guys felt very comfortable around him, very non threatening. But on the inside, pure monster. And I know there's a lot of people that don't

like me using the term monster. They take thinks it takes away from his you know, what was going on with the pathology of Bundy and all that stuff and that, and I always say no because if you're going to cut off a woman's head and take that head home to have oral sex with it, if that's not monster, like, I'm sorry, I don't think it exists. See to understand what I'm saying. And this is the reality. This is

the reality of how he lived. He loved having sex with dead girls, and he loved having sex with live girls. But there's a monstrous character to theater or Bundy, and it goes way beyond just killing a person. It's what he did with the dead, how he thought the things that he did. And so yeah, I think monster happily describes this man.

his ruse? How on earth could this guy Because we're talking about and again I want to get the official number as far as you know, how many victims. Well, first thing, you tell us how many victims, then tell us unfold the ruse you did allude to talking about the murder kid. And maybe that's jumping ahead a little bit or not, but please tell us what he all did, including that he was a good looking guy. Obviously we know that he's a good looking, charismatic guy, well groomed guy.

But he was a skier at one time with his actual friends that he did have, and like you say, he was a pretty gregarious, friendly guy. What was the ruse he used to get these intelligent, educated, even somewhat careful women to come with us, right.

He picked out body dumps and he discovered early on that if he would apply the ruse to what he was doing, the better off he would be enable to being able to capture his victims. Now in Washington State, he would use a cast or he would do his arm in a sling with like a little what's it called, like a splint or something. And remember he had something on it at CWSC where his hand must have had like a little splinter or something on it. He carried at CWSC. And I talked about this in the book.

He's carrying and dropping books while he's kind of laboring under an injury. And not only that, he's got a couple of packages with him that had brown parcel paper around him, you know, and tied with string. And you see a guy looking like a normal guy, and you got this thing going on. Women are gonna say, can I help you with that? And he knew that would play in his favor and it did, And so he took the natural things that he had the abilities, and

he would add to it now. And when he got to Utah, as we now know, he tried to gain and in fact did gain the confidence of Carol Durrant at the Murray in Murray at the Fashion Place Mall by showing her a badge, first just announcing that he was a police officer, and she followed himself, that was an authority, that was an authority thing. And then when she demanded to see a badge, he flipped her a badge of some type. Wasn't a real police badge, so he would use that. So he used the crutches he

would use. You know, there are various ruses that he would use. He had a chameleion type look to himself. There's a pretty good picture that you'll see occasionally, have like six different photographs of Bundy lined up, you know, three and three top and bottom, and in each photograph he looks different than people call that the chameleon look.

But even with that, even with his ability to change how he looks by combing his hair on the other side or doing something else, or losing weight or you know whatever, he still would occasionally use, like, for instance, a false mustache, like he did to night that Carol Durance got away from him and he went up to puntiful and kidnapped baby Can. So the ruse for him. In fact, when he talked to Michelle and Amesworth, he talked about reinforcing the ruse, and I believe he talked.

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go get a drink. Her boyfriend was coming in, but she was a little dissatisfied with him and with life, and she battled depression. So she went with him, and so he told her he had to go pick up I think he said a resume or something that somebody was piping for him, and he called that reinforcing the ruse. But that when he got beyond the city limits and where it was more rural, well he was in complete control. Then he stopped the car. He ordered certain things and

she obeyed. There was no getting away. So he called even conversation certain things to still people and keep them from being fearful. He would call that ruse. Now, an interesting thing came up about that. When Kathy Parks was headed to the cafeteria that night, the official reports talk about her running into a woman named Lorraine Fargo, and she had mailed Kathy Parks from the record, she had mailed her boyfriend a letter. And this is May sixth,

nineteen seventy four. She had mailed a letter. And really, I think this is the first time that you're all really anybody to speak of, except for a site that I answered questions. I'm called executed today. The information I'm about to give ire I gave there. But Lorraine Fargo ran into her right before Kathy went to the cafeteria. And this was close to eleven o'clock at night. Lorraine was coming from the library and they met each other. And so anyway, Kathy mailed this letter to her boyfriend.

And it's because it has a postpont date of May seventh. I founded the book that perhaps she made she mailed it that night, maybe even perhaps even right at the time that she talked to Lorraine Fargo. And I said, you know, it may be that Bundy was following Lorraine and then saw the vulnerability or whatever of Kathy. We just don't know. Well, I've spoken to Lorraine Fargo since then.

Lorraine told me that my assumptions were correct. She said she was holding the letter and there was a there was a there was a post office box not twenty feet from them. Once she was done talking to Lorraine, Kathy put the letter in the box and went on to the cafeteria. And then Lorraine tells me the story about a guy coming up to her in the library wanting to talk to her, and Bundy used to hunt

the libraries, as we as we know. And when she left the library, this guy followed could very well be that he saw them stop and he and it could have been Bundy. So you know, these are the kind of things that that you know, I found interesting that we're actually confirmed. You know, when I talked to Loring Fargo, she was actually holding the letter when they were talking, and I've seen pictures of where they stood. It's right

across from the cafeteria. But in Campy Park's case, Bundy said the things he said to her were reinforcing the ruse. So Bundy considered anything that he could use to fool somebody part of the rust.

One was a blue puffy ski type and the other one was brown woolen with with leather on it. Now, these would be used when he would drag the bodies out, just to give him traction to hold onto to the wrists or whatever of the body that he was dragging. A lot of these girls had drag bruises and scratches from drag marks. Okay, post warn them anyway. So he'd have two red handed gloves, he'd have a he he would have a the ski mask. He had an ice pick. I believe the ice pick he used a puncture holes

in the women. For some reason, I don't necessarily faily believe that he used them to actually kill the women. He had an electrical cord which he used for choking, and he probably used that every time. He also had clothesline rope. You could use that for choking, but it could be for binding up people. That was in there as well. Plus he had taken a white sheet and cut these up into strips, and that was for binding

hands and feet. As I said, he carried the glad bags in the bag to He never left anything on the bodies beyond say a beaded or wooden necklace. While he left those on there, he must have had his reasons. Could easily jerk them right off the neck, but or he would leave. If he choked them with stocking, he would usually leave that, but a lot of times he'll

use this electrical cord anyway. That was in there. And then there was a flashlight which would come in handy because he's often found himself himself out in the woods at night and you would absolutely need one. And uh, let's see there was let's see, I don't know about the cover. I guess, oh, there was a panty holes mask and a plus and plus he had he had handcuffs now, and of course he had the crowbar, but the handcuffs and the pantyholes mask were not with the

kit that came to Louisville. The crowbar, and I believe the handcuffs were with the court system in Utah. I believe in the hands of Judge Hanson, which he died

last year. Maybe his family has a crowbar. I know that Jerry Thompson when when when Jerry Thomps, when Bundy was arrested in Florida, Jerry Thompson flew down there and because Bunny was caught with a panty holes mask down there, uh, and Thompson flew in there with that Pennyhles mask so it could be entered evidence, so they could make some kind of correlation that the judge. That judge denied it

down there for some reason. So I don't know if that ever came back from Florida, but everything else in his kit came to Louisville. And I say in the book, if you want to see how the murders changed, I see in the book that in Utah he kicked it up a notch. There is strong, strong evidence that two of the girls, Laura Amy and Melissa Smith were kept alive for a number of days. Absolutely, it's without question when Melissa Smith was taken, her body didn't turn up

for a certain period of time. When they did locate her body, they determined that she'd only been dead for like about five days, and she'd been gone a lot longer, so there was no place really to go and store them. So there's a detective of the opinion, and I had to agree with him that Bundy took her to his apartment at five sixty five First Avenue. They're the University of Utah. Now. Melissa Smith was the daughter of Lewis Smith, who was the chief of police of Midvale, Utah. Midvale

is just a suburb of Salt Lake. There are these little cities that run. It's all one kind of big metropolitan area. Anyway, when the sister of Melissa Smith, Tilleen saw her sister, she told detectives, that's not my sister's makeup. She's wearing plus even though she was dead, and she had scratches and bruises on her from the hauling and

all that, and cranium damage which ultimately kill her. In other words, when she was hit, she men never begain consciousness and lived for a number of days with Bundy, and that was fine with him. But he had washed her hair, cleaned her body, reapplied makeup, and left her out in the woods or in a location that she could be found. And that wasn't very odd of Bunny. Sometimes he wouldn't put people too far off the road, if you know what I mean. It's almost like he

wanted them to be found. But the thing about Utah is he kicked it up a notch. He was wanting to not just kill women and do things there. Or He admitted to having at least four heads at one time in his apartment in Washington State, but in Utah he was bringing living although perhaps comenttose bodies to his apartment compleas I mean, to the house he lived in. He either carried him up the stairs or up the

fire escape, and nothing was too bizarre. The normal mind would think, oh, you wouldn't do that, But you got to throw all that away with Bundy. There are things he did that you wouldn't think anybody would do. When it comes to kidnapping and murder, you just wouldn't do it, but he did it anyway. Some people think maybe he stuffed him down down in the utility room, but I don't think so because that could have practic of other

people in there and they could be discovered. So I believe he had him in his room at different times, but they were there, and when they finally died, he washed him up or whatever and got rid of him. So he kicked things up the Knox and then if you look at how the murders went, by the time he went to Florida, he was a very, very disorganized killer there. He was a very part of the time he was there physically dirty. There, he was undergoing by the time he got to Florida his own version of

a meltdown. But again that's a that's that's later down the road.

of it. That usually is the separation between the very weirdest killers, the Dahmers. Even Gaycy would never as far as anyone knows, didn't engage in that. But I mean, not to make them much better than he is, but it is sort of a unique things in terms of these people admitting that sort of thing.

body color and of the freshly dead. He really enjoyed that. Okay, so you know this is this is the kind of you know, there are people out there that that commit murder and they don't even think in terms like this. This Theodore Bundy is certainly not unique in as much as there aren't other people out there like him. There are, but he's very unique. As to what Theodore Bundy was

on the outside and what he accomplished. You see Ross Davis, who is the head of the Republican Party out there like the Central I can't stay at Natalist alone, but the Central Working and State Committee or something like that. He told me, He said Bundy could have had anything he wanted. You know, he had a lot of influential friends. He was educated, and I say in the book, had he gone into law or politics, it doesn't matter. The proper doors were going to open for him. In the

midst of it all. The core of Bundee was not becoming governor becoming a lawyer, having a wife and children and a non de five. His core value was murder. And as that started rising at him to where he was going to pass from the barrier from fantasy to reality, he reached a point where that he just internally discarded the mask of a life and he was only going to do that which would help him to stay secret.

But he got to the place where he knew that all of these accomplishments and all of the influential friends he had, and where he could have gone, he wasn't going there. And he knew it. And I say something like this in the book that on that day there would be no exit ramps for him. He was going one way and that's all he wanted. In fact, he told Bill Heigmeyer, he said, I don't know why it's so hard for people to understand that I just enjoyed

killing people. He just enjoyed killing people and that's what he was going to do. And Bill said, and he just said to himself, I'm going to keep doing this until I'm God. And that's essentially how he lived his life. Now, I personally believe that Bundy killed before nineteen seventy four. I think he killed in nineteen seventy three, and I think it's highly likely that he killed Anne Marie Burt.

I know some people will scream and say, oh, that's ridiculous, But he implicated himself, and I go into this in the book. He implicated himself to Ron Holmes, who was also here from Louisville. And I interviewed Ron and in the third person, like Michael Ainsworth thing when he was confessing to them the third person, he directly linked himself to the murder of Anne Mary Burb. Did he kill Burt? There's no way of knowing. But again this is part

of the mystery of what he was. Now you asked about the total, they come up with a total of thirty five thirty six. That is probably correct. I think it's probably a little low, a little low, But talk of one hundred, that's absurd. I just don't believe it. But I do believe it's probably above thirty five. And I do believe he killed more girls, like twelve years old or maybe thirteen whatever than he would have admitted to. And in fact, he admitted to killing eleven in Washington State,

but really he only named eight. He admitted to killing eight in Utah, but he only named five. Bundy had things that he was not going to talk about. Bundy had his secrets, and I'm sure he hated the fact that he had to share some of those at the end of his life to try to gain more time. He didn't like that because he considered that information belonging to him and said, so, I've even got a place in the book where he talked about that it's mine, it's mine, like you know, to give away or you

know whatever the transcript says. So he hated doing that. But there were numerous things that I know Bundy took to the grave with him, and they're just information that we're just never going to know. And there's women out there that never came home and there's no knowledge of where they are, and he killed them, just like there's other women that have died by other people's hands, and they're just they're just never going to come home again. Nobody knows what happened to them.

out looking for a victim. On August sixteenth, nineteen seventy five, when he was pulled over in Granger, Utah. He had he said he wasn't. He said he was all just absolomping some pot and he wasn't. But he's he is a liar, and the evidence is there a word. He had the seat out and he would and it was laying in the backseat. That means he was looking for a woman the club and lay her down there. So he had his seat out. He had the murder kit opened, the same murder kit to Ken High House. He had

it opened. Stuff was spilling out. He was ready to use it. He was smoking pot. He got pulled over by this con and he's taken in. If not till a little later they started putting two and two about this guy. But here's what happened. In January of seventy five, months before he was arrested. He killed Karen Campbell up at Snowmass, a Michigan nurse out of Michigan who came to their boyfriend, doctor Raymond Gadawski and his kids the Snowmass for scheme. I think within about twenty four hours

she was dead. And Mike Fisher out of Colorado, and he and I looked together closely on this book. He is the one that was finally was able to bring a warrant for murder against Bundy because the gasoline seats placed him near to where those murders in Colorado took place. It's just more than Karen, I mean more than Karen Campbell. There was Julie Tonny hamso and so forth, and so they knew they had their guy. So he gets this

murder warned and they take him. Bundy had been sentenced to one to fifteen years for the attempted abduction of kidnapping a Carol the ranch, and so he was doing one to fifteen years. Had pointed them mount in prison in Utah. Well they came and got him because he was going to stand trial for murder in Colorado. Well he you know, he's in the Aspen jail. It's a very old building, and he gets to know the guards.

Everybody likes him. He's ted, you know, and you know Jerry Thompson's warning, Mike Fisher's warning, you can't lit this guy out of your sight. He's going to escape. He's he's a murderer. He's a vicious individual. And I don't know, he's just ted. You know. He's reading his law books in the library. Well, one day he goes in to read the law law books library, jumps out the second story window. Off he goes into the wilds. He he snookered the jailers, but he couldn't snooker the wilds of Colorado.

And he was within five or six days he was back and he was incarcerated. He tried to come back and see the car and so man he was transferred to another jail later for another reason. He's already had one escape. They're warning him. They say he have the prisoner saying he's he's undone. The light fixture above and there was a plate that needed welding, and he got up like kind of like an a rafter type things. They could hear him calling about the prisoners warned them.

Jerry Thompson won them again. Michael Fisher warned them, Oh, he's just Ted. You know he's not Fit's okay gone. Second time gets away, hosts a flight to Chicago, takes a train to ann Arbor, goes the university, steals a car, comes through Louisville, has breakfast, heads to Atlanta, dumps the car in Atlanta, takes the Trailways bus to Tallahassee. Nobody knows this guy. He gets saddled, that desire for murder comes back off he goes. But let me tell you something.

People lost their jobs in Colorado because they didn't watch him. Three women lost their lives. You know, horrible, horrible thing. Nobody should have died after he was arrested. I mean, after he was transferred to Colorado, they'd have put that man on lockdown. I mean, that would have been it. He had never killed anybody else.

He's already in this sort of different situation. Yet he has to kill, and he has to kill, and he has to kill the way Ted Bundy kills. He can't be quiet. He has to do it with this force. This you talk about this monstrous full transformation. But it certainly is in Florida, isn't it.

women and repulsing them. When he tried to pick up women next to Kyle at the Oh gosh, I need my own book here, uh, the Disco Charades disco next door right, the women called him creepy, his eyes were weird. He wasn't drawing women, he was repelling women, and so and I point this out in the book. So what does he do. He can't get the conscious women, he goes next door in the middle of the night and

attacks the unconscious women at Kyle Omega. And the funny thing about this is it had been a long time since he had killed. And if you look at them of the person that attacked the women in Kyle Omega, and you look at them of Bundy, the killer in either Washington State or Utah, you're you're not yeah, You're not gonna think they're the same guys at all. And

you see he was defending as a killer. He was becoming more animalistic, where in he was exceedingly careful of leaving evidence behind in Washington State, he was as sloppy as he could be. In Florida, And after and I point this out the book, after the frenzy at Kylemega, he's walking away from Kylemega holding the log that he attacked the women with by his side, and a guy goes by and sees it. So does he go home at that point? And does he try to hot know

the killer in him is not satiated. What does he do. While sirens are wailing. He's walking just a few blocks over. I've been over this whole area. He goes over to Dunwoodie, it's just a stone's throw and he attacks the the Thomas woman in her apartment. So the killer had not satiated himself with Kyle Mega, and while the sirens are wailing, he's looking for another victim. This is not the.

so he wasn't desperate at all. He had the ability to attract all kinds of different potential victims with almost sort of ease, so that when he had somebody that had resistance and could expose him, he just let them go.

think he knew why he did it. I think that was the exception rather than the rule. Now, And I don't mean as a dry run. He used to do drive runs just to see if he could do it. That's how much he prepared Furder in Washington State. But he came out and said there were pals whand he meant to do that, and at the last moment he said, like, for some reason, I just changed my mind. And there

are other women. I know that when he confessed to the Lyneth Cover murder in Idaho, he said, you know, there were other attempts, but not anything that would have let the women know like they were about to be abducted. So there's a number of women that came close to

an encounter with him and then never knew it. You know, he was attempting to pull it off, and I found out reasons why he had extra trouble, you might say, when he was up there the day before he got the before he got Lynneth Culbert, even though it was May sixth, it was the one year anniversary by the

way of the Cathey Park subduction. But May sixth, nineteen seventy five, and he's up at the university and up there and it's you know, winter still kind of like holding on to its grasp, And both days he was there, it was cold and snow showers, And so I say in the book, you know, women coming from their car going into place, I don't care if a guy's holding or not. If it's cold and they're freezing. Every failia and they're gonna go on. So that hindered him. He

didn't know the area that hindered them. There was various things that was hindering him from capturing you know, the colleague aged women while he was there. Well, it just so happened. The next day he was trolling and got twelve year old Lennet Culver and took her back to the holiday inn and did not have sex with her prior to murdering her, but he'd drowned her in the

tub and then he had sex with her. And this is a particular case where I called William Hagener, I said, Bill, I got her name, and I got the mayor of her death, but I don't have anything else. When he heard the matter of her death, he said, I don't think that that's probably what happened, because that's not the way Bundy used to like kill his women. But if you find out anymore about it, please let me know. And then I found out exactly what happened. And you know,

it didn't come out in the regular concession. When Russ renewed uh and his like assistant not as system but the associate crimina and investigator when they were dealing with Bundy in the last hours of his life. Last couple of days, they were covering Dilanet cover murder, and they were covering the girl that Bundy picked up at as a hitchhiker on his move to Utah, that he killed in the state. And they were going back and forth really fast, and Bundy had mentioned that he drowned Culver

and put her body in the river. But when they were walking out of the prison, Us looked at Randy Evert and said, you know, he never really said how he drowned her. Could you go back in and find out exactly what happened there? And this was an unscheduled meeting. It wasn't sanctioned by Bundy's attorney. William Hagmer was there. Randy ever Randy Everett is led back into the prison and waited for Bundy in a room and here comes Bundy and he said, you know, something like Ted you

said you drowned the girl. How did you do it? He said, oh, I drowned her in the club, and you know, and then he had sex with her, so on and so forth. But that's why Hagmar never knew that the girl was drowned, because Hagmar told me, you got to remember Bundy's am over killing women a lot of times, and this is what he did. It's graphic,

but it's true. It's all part of the story. He used to have sex with him, either amally or vaginally from behind, and he would choke them to death at the same time because of the physiological things to go on when they die. So this is something he really enjoyed. And so Hagmar said, I've never known Bundy to drown anybody, never admitted to it, but that came out in like

this little extra meeting. And so these are some of the things I was able to find out that a few people knew, a few investigators knew, but it never made it into prince.

you say, is all encompassing. He is the narcissistic, charismatic, the organized serial killer, but he's also the necrofile, which is usually associated with less organized kinds of killers. And I like to say his moo changes, his signature seems to change to a certain degree. There's an escalation, a progression.

It's an amazing story. I want to thank you very much Kevin for coming onto the program and uh for those I know I did, and I know our audience will really appreciate this, this interview, and I want to let people know that they've been listening to Kevin Sullivan with his book The Bundee Murders, A Comprehensive History. Thank you very much, Kevin, and I hope you have a great weekend.