THE ARKANSAS HITCHHIKE KILLER-Janie Nesbitt Jones

by one lawman as a pleasant conversationalist. Author Janie Nesbit Jones chronicles his life for the first time and explores reasons why he became Arkansas's hitchhike killer. The book that we're featuring this evening is the Arkansas Hitchhike Killer James Wyburn Redhall with my special guest journalist and author Janie Nesbit Jones. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for this interview. Jane Nesbit Jones, thank you so much. Thank you so much for this joining me for this

incredible tale. Let's talk about this is set in a Faulkner County, Arkansas. Maybe you can tell us just a little bit about where this is and this is ironically called Happy Valley. So tell us where in Nola and Faulkner County, Arkansas, and just set the stage four we're talking about the whole family and the Ingram families, tell us a little bit about their settling in Happy Valley.

and people were mostly in agricultural type situations. The business was usually centered around agriculture, and I said something about Iola and that area in particular seemed to have It seems to have an unusual number of people who lived for a long time, even past one hundred. But anyway, Happy Valley is. It was one of those small communities sort of connected. Imola was a social hub. That's where

the post office was. And the Hall and Ingram families moved into that area in eighteen hundreds and became neighbors, and then they became more than neighbors when Samuel Jerome Hall married Eva Lorraine Ingram. They had ten children, one of whom was Red. His name was James Wyburn, but everybody called him Red because he had beautiful red hair, wavy red hair, and his father was a preacher and

farmer who was a strict disciplinarian. Especially with Red. I don't know if it was because Red was just more playful, more of an explorer. It probably got into trouble more, but his father was unusually strict with him. He did physically and verbally and psychologically abuse Red. And this was told to me by Red's cousin, Connie. Her name was Carnella Hall, and everybody called her Connie. She married a mister Weir Connie Weir, So she told me a lot

about the childhood. She said that her father was very, very nice, but Red's father was not. She called him El diablo, preacher with horns, or a devil right, And she saw one time how physically abusive Samuel laws with Red. He just beat him terribly, and sometimes it seemed to be over nothing. So Rennett started wandering away from home. He would wander around the county and his father would go drag him back home, and that made his father even matter at him. And then as he grew older,

he started wandering even farther away around the state. Now, when he was about twelve years old, he suffered a head injury. Most say it was a farming accident, but some people wondered if his father had hit him a little too hard and what's too often, But it was a serious injury because Red he just well, he was unconscious. He was knocked unconscious and was out for quite a while, and people said he was just never really the same

after that. But anyway, as he was growing up, when he became a teenager, he started wandering on to other states and he would be gone for weeks at a time. Then one day in nineteen thirty eight, he met his wife to be. Her name was Walsey McKee, and then met a church. And Walsey was a shy, naive young girl. She never went to dances or anything like that, so

she had led a very sheltered life. But she was attracted to Red because he had been to all these other places, and she just got absorbed in the stories that he would tell her about these places he had been, and he asked her to marry him. They had seen each other for quite a while and then they decided to get married. Well, her mother, Amanda McKee, moved in with them, and that kind of irned Red. But the

problem still mainly was Red's wandering ways. During the time he was married to Walsey, he would still go off and be gone for a long time. She and her mother would be left to do the farm chores, and she would sometimes have to ask her in laws for help in bringing in the crops and things like that. In nineteen forty one, around Christmas time, Red happened to be home. He knew that their baby, their first baby, was due, so they called the doctor and unfortunately, the

baby was a still birth. He died at birth, and while the doctor was tending to Walsey, Red had some sort of fit that he had been sitting on a couch and then when the doctor told him that things were not going well and that they would be losing the baby, Red fell off the couch and the doctor said when he got back up, his eyes were twitching,

and then he just sat there quietly. So anyway, they did lose that first child, and then she was okay, Well, she was okay, and things went back to normal, which meant that, yeah, Red was wandering away again. And then I will say they did have a second child who lived. But at one point they finally decided that it just wasn't working out, although it was Red who actually wanted the divorce, so they did. Red and Wallsey divorced and

he moved on. But he had been still in one place just long enough to be drafted because at that time World War two. This was in like I said, late nineteen thirties, and by this time it was the early forties, and the services they needed more men to fight the war.

anything like Lawsy. She was headstrong, independent, curious, and when he wanted to go somewhere, she wanted to.

was roughing her up. She tried leaving him once. In fact, she did leave him once and she stayed with a friend for a little while, but then she decided to give it one more chance, so she went back to it. They were living in a little apartment behind a grocery store, and she wanted to go out. She enjoyed, not she wasn't a social butterfly, but she just enjoyed a good time. So one night she wanted to go to this place.

It was called the Rainbow Garden. The Rainbow Garden was a ballroom that sat atop what they called the largest gas station in the world. It was called a five five five buildings because there was the big letters are big figures, numbers numerals. I guess we should say five five five. That was the telephone number for that gas station. The gas station was located on the ground floor, of course, and then they had one floor that was given over to cars where people could park their cars or rent

cars and things like that. And then, like I said, the top floor where was the ballroom. And she just loved that place. They ring loved that place. So she decided one Thursday night in September to ask her friend Katie Bryant to go with her and read that night because it was ladies' night at the Rainbow Garden. So Katie said sure, and they picked her up and they

went and danced and had a good time. At midnight, though Red wanted to leave and Katie really needed to because she worked, so Theyrene wanted to go down in the elevator because she was wearing new shoes and they were hurting her feet, but Red insisted on going down the stairs and they started sniping at each other and he got rough, so they went out to the car. They finally got down and she told Red, she said,

I won't leave you with you and he slapped her. Well, she went ahead and got in the car and Katie got on the outside. She sat up front and read got in and they took Kadie home. They dropped her off, and that was the last time anybody saw Irene alive.

in unique. They'd never seen anything like that. And Muriel, Muriel was also Fay's sister in law, and they would go shopping together. And besides the dress, she tried on those shoes that I was talking about, because on launched a shopping trip with Muriel. She had bought those shoes and she was trying to break them in. So anyway, Muriel and I had a pretty good visit that Sunday. But that was Yes, that was the introduction to the to the outfit. One thing that helped identify her remains later.

that alerted Muriel. And also there were three cousins of those who were coming up from Pine Bluff, Arkansas to visit say, but again Red said that she was gone, and that's how her family, the Clemens family, found out that she was she was missing because they knew that she would never take off, just take off like that and not contact her family. They were a close family and she talked to them often, so they knew something

was wrong. So her mother and i'ma Jean, her sister, went to the Little Rock Police Department to talk to the chief of detectives there O N. Martin, and they told him what had happened and that well, she was married. They started talking about Red and Martin said, well have you have you talked to him? And they said, well, we've tried that he's never a rent. So after they left, the chief there sent to detectives. One was Herbert Peterson

and the other one jud. His name was Detective jud So Peterson and Hudd went to the taxi stand where Red worked, and so that got things moving a little bit. Because you may be able to run from family members, which you can't run from the cops. They're gonna keep on until they find you. So he just told them that fay Rain had left and gone to the coast. But see, the thing was her clothes were still at home in their little apartment. Her clothes were still there,

so that indicated she hadn't packed. If she had left, she hadn't packed. So anyway, the cops taught to read and who doesn't really give us satisfactory answer except for saying that she left for the coast. And they say, you mean And they say, how did that happen? What happened that night? And he said, well, we got home and they were arguing. We were arguing, and then I just went on to bed, and let's see. He gets up, he says, this is what he tells the cops. He

gets up and he realizes theye's not there. He goes through a couple of the rooms. It's a small apartment, and she's just not there. But he goes back to bed, and they say, your wife disappears and you go back to bed. But there you begin to see how Red had strange ways of thinking.

when she was so comfortable with him. There was nothing to indicate that he was a violent serial killer, and by that time he had killed a lot of people. And while the investigation into Phase disappearances going on, the Arkansas State Police are being bombarded with these crimes murders, and they quickly come.

his job. The captain was Jay Earl Spraggin, and their chief detectives on the case were Homer Sims and Oliphant Brett Eliphant. So first there's the murder in Camden and they find out they realized that he probably didn't get very much. This is an interesting thing about Red's murders. He would steal, but he never got anything hardly. Sometimes he would get like Forridgton's. The second victim, which came at the first of February, was mister Adams E. C. Adams.

He was from Kansas and he was coming to Arkansas. He's going to go down to Camden where they had an ordnance plant and get a job there. So he picked up bred in Little Rock, and not too long after that his body is found. He's shot in the head. Now this time he was shot with the thirty eight. And I might add, but the reason the state police were called in on that first mother the one mister Hamilton was because the first forty five sworders gave them

an idea of the people there in Camden. The officers that vie it might have been a soldier because that was the firearm used by soldiers. So that first murder sees he used a forty five, and the second murder of mister Adams he used at thirty eight. So and then let's see the next one. They're still going on and boil. Moharne. I'm not sure I pronounced that correctly. It's mo Heron, Heron, mo Heron, Yes, it's spelled like mo Heron. But I'm thinking because your way we talked

here in Harchard Susthermton, it may be Moharne. And he was a driver for a meatpacking company.

was the first clue they had the State police. So you have these two investigations going on, the State Police and the Little Rock Police Department, and somewhere along the line, well yes I'm leasing track here, but back on course. So he does kill mister malhern and he kills him with that thirty eight. Okay, so his next victim is.

Welcome bonut. That's Chumbuck Casino dot com. And lived at Chumba Laine.

first time he's called the hitchhike killer officially, isn't it? Yes, yes, yes, Now let's go back to just you say, there's two investigations, so that's good that we identify that's Arkansas State Police and then the Little Rock Police Department, and so unlike many many stories where police in different jurisdictions almost act like they're competitive and don't share information, and even if that's not the motivation, if they don't share information and

the perpetrator goes on to kill longer than they maybe could have possibly if the jurisdiction is cooperated now with Little Rock Police Department in Arkansas State Police, when does it that they get together and start talking and seeing similarities in some of these these killings.

But they and they do arrest. So this is a little lease of course who arrest read that he gets off with just a fine and court cosse. It's almost unbelievable. Who gave that guy such a beating that I think he pleaded self defense And he always he would always say his father was a preacher, and you know, he was a religious man and all things like that. This is where they begin to cross over. Let's see. After Newcomb, the state police captain Scragging gets a tip over the phone.

It's a woman who tells him that a relative of hers works at the same taxi station as Red Hall. Her relative is an ex convict. He knows that, he just knows that Red is the killer because I'll call him. I think i'll call him, and I use some fake names. If I interviewed somebody and they didn't want to give their name, I would use another name. In this case, all the news reports used different names for this other taxi driver. They wanted to protect him. He was not

involved in the killing. But he knows he carried a forty five in his taxi, and Red wants to borrow his taxi. And yeah, and and that's what he does when he goes down to kill mister Hamilton. That's why he uses a forty five. But he puts that forty five back where it was in the car and returns it to I'll call him mister Blaine, the other taxi driver.

And Blaine is suspicious. He's very suspicious because of one thing that Red had said, said he was going out on the road to make some money, and so Blaine. He realizes if the the gun has been fired, and he's telling his relatives about this, but he doesn't want to be to get involved because he's afraid the authorities will suspect him because of his record. That his relatives calls this in the Captain Scraggin and so they go

pick up blame. But meanwhile Spraguin calls Chief Martin with the Little Rock Police Department, right, and that's when they realize, See, Captain Scaragin had learned the name Blaine had told him that it was Red Hall, James Red Hall, So the state police know his name. Now they get in touch with the Little Rock Police Department and they know his name because well, the most recent thing was that rawle

in the alley. But then they tell Mark and telled Scragin that Hall is suspected in the disappearance of They that's when they joined forces. And they do still have two investigations going Homer Simps and and Red Oliphant. I mean, they've made a lot of trips. They started in Kansas when they were investigating the.

so friendly, and he thinks it's about his wife. Again, they've already asked him what about his wife, and he did yours. It's just that he has no idea. There's no idea. So they take him in and they hold him there and they just kind of let him stew for a while, lock him up. They search him, of course, and they find a postage or a receipt. Well, you have postage receipt and it was a package. They trace it and it was a package that he had sent

to female friend, not necessarily girlfriend. We don't really know about that, Karin Franklin. So they go talk to her and she said, yes, he didn't send her something. And it once again you'll see here what he would take from his victims and it's just crazy. He had stolen from from mister Adams. He had stolen things like razor blades, cigarettes and let's see, he's always going after the cigarettes of Clox, clocks and rotching. Yeah, and people on the street.

And I've had somebody already comment on this. He would sell the quocks and things to people on the streets. It's so hard to believe that he did. People just he'd be carrying this clock and they say, yeah, I'd like to buy that for a couple of dollars, and that's all he would ever get. It's just crazy.

very bright that he keeps all of this stuff. But also in this interrogation, which very very interesting, is a beat reporter for one of the newspapers that they believe the Gazette tell us about Joe Wergis if that's his pronunciation of his name, and his again for people reading this will be his unusual role within this interrogation.

And he becomes the police reporter, and he becomes such a good friend with all these different agencies, the sheriff's office, the police, the city police, the state police. They all love him. And he has a dry sense of humor that is just precious. But yeah, he will help the police, especially the Little Rock police. He would even type up their reports, and they trust him. They really counted him as one of their own, right. He's just he says funny things and I wish I could have known him,

But yeah, he's in on. He's there when they get the confession. Dari's with this would right for me to tell you a little about the interrogation.

But for the interrogation they bring in both again the len Rock Police and the State police. So in there you have Captain Scraggin, Judd Peterson.

about the Hitchhock killings. They read didn't know, see, he didn't know that they were suspecting him that those That's the first inkling he had about that. So he pleaded dumb. He just said, stays dumb on that he doesn't know what they're talking about. And then of course Peterson, Now Peterson stays on his feet and he paces back and forth. Who gets down in red space. He's the puppy you hear about good cop, bad cop? Why he's the bad cop.

So they grill him for a long time, and little by little, uh Broggin will move the papers on the desk. I think the first thing that Red seas is one of the clocks. He thinks that's strange, you know, that's really weird, and it does accuse him a little bit there, But they go on with the interrogation. He's still denying everything, and then Spraggen holds a few more papers aside, and there's a gun. It's one of the gun. It's a gun.

And he still doesn't say anything. But in finally her Peterson gets to him by talking about his son, the little baby, and and Red. He always says the thing that he would say if he loved somebody who would say, I'm crazy about her like Walsey, I'm just crazy about her and his little baby boy, I'm just crazy about him. And he's said when he always saw to it, that he sent ten dollars a month to help Walsey with the baby. And Peterson says, is that what is that a good dad or something like that?

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refund your money, no questions asked. Remember get your next delicious bowl of gilt free cereal at magicspoon dot com. Slash true murder and use the code true murder to save five dollars off. Thank you Magic Spoon for sponsoring this episode. Now, Jennie, when we last left off, we were talking about the confession, and they the detectives were masterful in appealing to this person, saying, do you want your son to remember you as a coward? You be

a man and take the consequences. And so the staging and the confrontation psychologically this way, and finally said, as you said, I'll tell you all about it. I killed them all. Now you say that statements cleared up the four Hitchhike murders and his wife's disappearance and just as they feared the Faylene or fay Reen was dead. According to Red Hall, tell us about what he does say about the four Hitchhike murders on all the murders that he confesses to in this confession.

come back to that. While he was married to fey Ring, she did accompany him on a trip up to Oregon, and things were different after that, and her family suspected that she knew that. The cops suspected that she knew something that Red had done on an Oregon and that's what read. That's what was the other motive he said was she knew too much. So she either knew too much about a murder or something in Oregon or what did she He never really spelled that out. He just says that she knew too much.

what's interesting is this interrogation. His demeanor at this interrogation, and once he does start confessing the manner in which he does do that, you comment as well, tell us how he talks about these crimes.

the first time. It's when he sees his father for the first time after his arrest, and he does break down.

for money. And then he figured everybody had money got somewhere rowed away and then he mentioned he talked about let's see, Moharn was the second one, and he said, yeah, he's just donchalon about it all now, doll Moharan And this jived with what the witnesses saw. Moharn was fighting for control of the truck.

headache and said he couldn't he'd have to stop. And the that just shows you. I mean, he just kills somebody. Then he gets picked up by somebody he had hitch hiked. Again. That's picked up. He's always so easily picked up. I mean he was always smiling and friendly. I mean, once the person stopped, they were just one over because he was charming. I guess you could say in a crude sort of way. He wasn't well educated or anything like that,

but he could just ring people over. He had some sort of charisma and so anyway, yeah, he almost tells somebody else try after he kills no Hand, and then he tells them about mister Nucom, mister Nucomb. That happened in Fatner County. So my husband and I went down about where. Of course, things are so different now, that was back in forty five. It was a bothet area or the spot where he pulls over. Nucomb pulls over

and he fights. He's really the only one that for some reason had a chance to fight back and right at that time, and this shows you how much nerve red Hull had while he's fighting was with Nucombe. A couple drive up going to coming towards Conway and they stop momentarily. Now, the driver, which is the husband, he sort of wants to stop because you think a couple of people are in trouble or something. That his wife urges him to go on because she thinks it's just

a couple of drunks fighting. Well, so they go on and it was just right after that that he kills Nukemb. He got Nukemb back in the he was trying to get him back in the back seat of the floorboard, and he ends up shooting him in the face. I mean, Lukemb really put up a fight. The lost. And then another thing that baffles the detectives is the way Haul thought about, I don't know, trying to get away with things. Where after he killed Nukemb, he decides he wants to

put the body in some water somewhere. Well, he's passing through Conway and the river is just a few miles At that time, it was a few miles from the city of Conway. The city's grown a lot since then. But he didn't. He did not turn and go to the Arkansas River and put it put Nukemb in there. Now, he just kept driving nor trying to look and looking,

he said, for a place, a body of water. But I mean, there's so many opportunities, the little Red River, different things, different places like that where he could have disposed of the body easily and without anybody seeing him. But no, he doesn't, and he ends up turning around and coming back toward Conway, still with the body in the back of the car, but a flat he gets a flat, so he knows, well, he can't travel like that, so he flow across the road and he runs through

a fence and he leaves. He stops in a glade. It's not very far from where people are living, but he stops and he burns the car with mister Newcomb inside, and then he goes and gets ride on a bus back to Little Rocke. But he takes mister Newcomb's bluish gray coat. He puts that on and goes back to Little Lot. So they get a little bit of evidence, physical evidence, and they did. They got evidence from every

one of those crimes. And they debate about who should prosecute him, what jurisdiction should prosecute him.

a celebrity that he's never experienced before. So these so the thing is is that there's a media response because you've got Joe Wurgess right there with the police and has access to everything, So what's the media response to the crime scene and tell us about the crime scene looking for Farine, and we didn't mention that fine is supposed is described. Tell us about the crime scene visit looking for Farine and her remains, well okay, yeah.

and he shows detectives. He leads them out there, and it's a caravan of cars because by then he's page

one news in Arkansas, so and out of state. There was a reporter Dick Allen from the Memphis Appeal, the Memphis Commercial Appeal, and so anyway, there's a caravan of cops and reporters following Red who's in the front car and most of the time when he goes around to these different crime scenes, he will be in the back seat handcuffed to Peterson and we're just will be right by side to So they go out there and at first he has a kind of a problem locating her remains,

but a woodcutter moving close to seeing Piepa Foster he comes out there to see what's going on, and he tells them that he found a skull out there, so he and he kept it. He didn't tell anybody, he didn't call a cross or anything, but he kept it. And he goes back up to his house and brings that. Meanwhile, Red keeps looking around. They're poking around, and there's a picture of him. I love that picture. He's holding on his stick and just been poking around. And then and

they do. When Foster comes back with the skull, he tells them where that was, and then he says, and there's a job on and he starts looking around. He said, yeah, yeah, it's over here in this log and they do. They find the job on one and when they get that out, Red says, yep, that's hers. See that buck tooth there that always hurt me when we're kissed. I mean that's the way he was, That's the way he was taught.

And also they found among her skelepel remains. And see, he thought he told them that he thought animals, buzzards and all kinds of animals would feed up the body, that there wouldn't be anything left and the water would carry the rest of it away. So he wasn't expecting to find anything that they found quite a bit of her skeletal remains, including the skull, and they found that dress. Of course it was in shreds by then, but they

were able to identify that because of those unique closures. Right, So, and he just and then all of a sudden, it comes to him that their anniversary, their wedding anniversary, their first year wedding anniversary, would have been coming up that month. They had.

All these little nities in that area had heard that the caravan was coming their way with Red Hall, so they gathered when they found out he was in the courthouse, about five hundred people showed up, and he was so pleased with it. He asked one of the detectives to raise the window so he could converse with the people in the crown. And I'll tell you what it reminded me of. If you've ever seen that movie about Charlie Starkweather.

He was a spruce killer back in the You remember him and the movie that they made about and called bad Lands with Martin Sheen. Remember how he just he was just thrilled to death to get all this attention. And he said something along the line says, you know, if I had some peanuts and popcorn, I bet I could make some money selling us to the Yeah, he just you not like that. He's just it's hard to understand.

buck tooth that I'll tell you this the reason. Another thing, the sheriff in Faulkner County wanted to have the trial here, but they were afraid that there would be prejudice because

Red was from here. And then too, there had been something that happened many years before in which a man had been prosecuted in two different jurisdictions and the first one that got him gave him life in prison, and then the second jurisdiction put him on trial, and they gave him death that he would have to serve live before they could execute him. That was a weird law.

Now anyways, I didn't want anything like that happening. And mister Robinson thought that the case against against him for Pie's murder was the strongest.

you feel about this? How did you feel after you killed day and he would say I relieved, so doctor Colb he said that he would that Red was saying that MV. Moody, his defense attorney, did plead him in a the reason of insanity, and also he bought the confession. He said the confession was coerced, but that was nobody believed that. So and then uh, I've lost by training thought it was about doctor cob.

has been argued down through the years. Whether or not when a person is sent to psychiatric hospital for observation and then that psychiatrist testifies, is it as admissible because was it done? When Red thought it was doctor Pliant's relationship. But of course in this case anyway. And I'm really not sure. I'm not educated well enough on a law about that. But that did not spend either. Mister Moody tried his best. And mister Moody is another character that

is just so he's bigger than lies almost. He goes to extremes and he goes to weird. I keep saying to people who buy the book, I say, now, when you get to the part about the courtroom, about the trial, it really happened that way. Moody is just unbelievable the things that he will He will go to all lengths to get his client off. He's very theatrical. He interrupts, I love this. The judge objected. I mean usually it's the lawyer who objects. The judge objected. I thought that

was funny. The judge was objecting to the repetitiveness. Oh and like Robinson said, at one point, he said, this may not be the trial of the Sanctuary, but it might type of century that caused up ladies distractions and things like that. But yeah, it's just really interesting to.

that he also confessed to. And so part of the trial is just and the defense has a hard time with it in that there are many reliable, credible witnesses that also he confessed to certain aspects of these murders, didn't he Yeah, yeah, the.

and he was just pulling on me. And then he'd say Robin would say that you would drags and he'd said, well, not really dragged, but I had to, you know, I had to keep up to keep from being dragged. And it was just crazy, but yes, they had to hear that that the argument that it was a coerce confession, but nobody believed that. I mean, that was one of these points of the defense. The defense said in the first place that okay, he's insane, for first the confession is coerced.

And in his charges to the jury, the judge did give them the options not guilty, saying that he didn't do it, not guilty by reason of insanity, guilty, But with what did he say, not Clement see something like yes, and that when the jury comes back, they they do recommend the death penalty.

him the baby. He's about two years old by then day and read things happy birthday, things have been bounces and me and all that. So he perks up. You know, it makes him happy, happy to see that baby and happy that Walce he's there. But like I said, on the other hand, he just he became all awhelmed with emotion when she was testifying, and he would sob. Yeah, he was just very touched by all that.

also about being a psychopath. So it becomes kind of ridiculous in the try to the defense in terms of you know, an actual insanity definition, what would be considered insanity not knowing right from wrong, But then they throw everything in there and calling him a psychopathic personality, I excusing what they were trying to prove here in Vain.

is the definition of a psychopathic personality? And they go through that over and over until finally he just and Judge Auten kind of helps bring that to a close, I think because of Moody and the way he repeats questions and the psychiatrists though some of the psychiatrists had just had a few minutes really to examine read the night before and the night before their testimony, so they can't say they they And then they listen to Moody, and they listen to with family members who say that

there's mental well back then they call them mental defects in his mother's family family, trying to make believe that it runs in the family, that insanity, And like you said, there's a difference between between insanity and then a psychopath. And I must have about that in a way to include that, but I just wanted to show how that trial went. The trial itself just unbelievable. It's remarkable. It's not like it's certainly not like anything you've seen on

TV Carrynason. It is not The Good Wife, it is not. But yeah, and then finally, of course, the judge when he does instruct the jury and he mentions that, you know, you can't really I don't know how to phrase that, but he leaves it. And like he said earlier on the confession, he was going to leave that to the jury to decide did they believe the confession or not? Then bless he saying or not? And he was leaving that conclusion to the jury after they heard all these

different ones. One psychiatrist claimed that Red told him he suffered from hallucinations, auditory hallucinations in which he would talk to a dead cousin. Nobody had ever heard of that before. That was the first time it was ever thought up. But I don't know if that was Red. Just Red was great. I'll tell you he could lie better than anybody. He would lie say something in one sentence, and this is A good example of this is the last time that he sees as father and he'll say to his father,

you know that it was an accident. I didn't mean to do it. I didn't mean to do it. But then again in the same is that he would say, I didn't do it. I didn't do it. You know, you gotta believe me. I loved the I mean, he just he can lie twice or three times in the same paragraph.

So what kind of access did he have to him? And given this death sentence and then that's what he was given and survived the appeal process. So tell us about the relationship and how close does Joe Wurgess get to Red Hall in his last days.

the assistant superintendent at the prison. They go out back there and fish a lot, and Joe, Joe will stay overnight there sometimes in one of the cells. And now the death house was that Tucker prison, and and he would sometimes spend the night in a cell there, and he would he would be there for the execution. I mean, he was there. He said something about read's last meal he wants Joe was going to be there, and Red

was just tickled to death about that. He said, he was so honored that Joe would would do that, would share his last meal, and he did, and he just he looked upon Red looked upon Joe, especially Joe as a friend, but he also looked upon the tactives who had then put him away. Basically, he thought they were a swell bunch of fellas, and that's what he said, a swell bunch of fellas. He didn't have any ill

will toward anybody. He thought that he was religious because his dad was a preacher, so he was brought up that way and he was just leaving it all to God, and he was at peace with himself. He was nervous, you know, sometime, but then they said it was he he stopped being nervous and he was actually I think I think one of the people said he had a jocular conversation while they were shaving his head for the execution. Yes.

got careless, and he started killing on that spray. That the war now when his when all of this was happening, and the hitch Hot murders and not really say that didn't really make the papers, but the Hitchhig murders did, of course. But the papers were all about the war in Europe and and had been, you know, throughout the war, with a list of people who had perished and the once missing in action, and just all about the war, what was taking place in the Pacific, what was taking

place in Germany. But the trial itself, when Red's trial was on and it lasted only three days, a believe, the war in Europe ended, and you know, there was just jubilation and release all across the country, and they would the people down in law they were celebrating. They'd be out there in the streets celebrating while this very somber trial was going on. So when so the newspaper. If it had not been for Joe Wargess, I don't know that bred Home would ever have gotten any attention

at all. I don't know. It's so hard to would he have gotten careless and gotten caught anyway, or would he just gone on killing h It's just yeah, I don't know. When he started confessing, a lawman from all across the country came to talk to him, and as you said, I mentioned some that almost definitely the Lambert Nipper case. That was doctor Lambert was an offica path from So he was in Kansas, a blue and he had he was traveling and he picked up a corporal

Nipper who was going back to his face. So he had already picked up one hitchhiker and then came Redcat along and they picked him up and reb killed both of them. And uh one thing that was very hard. Now, this is the hardest part of the research. There was so very little in newspapers. I mean, Martha was fairly common twice. I hate to say that I still is. But being commonplace some murders you never even hear about

unless they're particularly gruesome or the BodyCount is more. And so I tried my very best to make sure that nobody had ever solved these crimes that Read was strongly accused of committing. There was, yes, Corporal Nipper's cousin who now lives in North Carolina or Scepter, North Boston. That's North Carolina, isn't it Anyway, his cousin did confirm that. The family said no, that had never been solved. So the labet Knipper case, I do really believe, and the

authorities believed that Red did that. And also James Owen in Seminole, Oklahoma. The sheriff there, Jake Sims, and he's quite a character too, and he had helped catch I think it's like fifty murderers, but he never saw the case of James Owen. James Owen was killed around Christmas time and in nineteen forty good or forty idly yeah and yeah. He was partner a railroad track and when Red couldn't hitch hike, he would hop a fraight so

and Owen he had his head bashed in. He wasn't shot, but his head was bashed in and Jake Simms, the sheriff or the police chiefs of Seminole, he had seen read there many times. He said it was a common you know, he had seen him before, and he said that he truly believed, he would always believed that Jim Owen was killed by that Hall, and there were always I really couldn't try Wyman Peacock Jr. That was a toughing. I tried. I tried contact with his family and I

just couldn't hit anybody. So that, like I said, will put an asterisk by his nine because Red might have done it, but who knows.

in the not too distant future. It's just that well, I still work for a y magazine. I'm doing another murder mystery for them, so between that and life itself, I haven't got around to my own website. Get but thank you so much for having me on your show. As the podcast, I just I've really enjoyed it, and I do hope that listeners found it entertaining and informative.