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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them, Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, the Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zufanski.
Good Evening. It has been thirty years since Ted Bundy, arguably this country's most notorious serial killer, was put to death in the electric chair by the State of Florida in nineteen eighty nine, but there continues to exist in our society a morbid interest in him and the ghastly way he murdered and disposed of the women he abducted in the seventies. Many people want to know how a
person could do the things that Ted Bundy did. It's truly frightening to think that there are fellow human beings who possess such dark desires and act out their murderous tendencies on the innocent. In unsuspecting. We tend to think of these individuals as inhuman or evil, which is the only thing that makes sense to us, because what drives Ted Mundy and others like him are not feelings that
any of us can remotely relate to. In exploring what might have been working inside the mind of Ted Bundy, the angel of decay triggering him to brutally snuff out the lives of so many young women, the purposes not to increase his anonymous celebrity or sensationalize his heinous acts, but to shatter any such appeal. The only way to do that is to remember the women and young girls that he killed, not merely as victims, but remembering who they were, how they lived, and the impact they had
on their families as well as those around them. They had a lot more in common than being casualties of Ted Bundy's violent, psycho sexual desires. The book that we were featuring this evening is Ted. Good evening, Paul, and welcome to the program.
Hi, Thanks Dan, thanks for having me. I appreciate it.
Thank you very much. I just wanted to introduce you to the audience as the author of this book, Ted Bundy, but we had you on on True Murder a few years ago with your book called Caught in the Act. Before we start to sending you tell us a little bit about that book and the full title of that book.
And yeah, yeah, Caught in the Act subtitle is called A Courageous families fight to save their daughter from a serial killer, which people recall. It was a truck driver who was getting out of his vehicle in the middle of the night, parking it in one of those rest stops and dressing up in black and taking knives and different instruments with him and going down into the communities nearby and looking for unlocked doors to go into and
search for women to murder. And a family in Chelmston, Massachusetts, happened to hear some noise late at night. A couple woke up. The father went into the daughter's fifteen year old bedroom and saw this giant man and dressed in
black with a knife over his daughter. Before anything could happen, father ended up tackling this this man who was much bigger than him, and subdued him until the police got there, and they found out that this guy had done this two or three times previously and killed and killed women in the same fashion.
Yes, and the full title of that is caught in the act.
Yes, it's called in the Act and it's subtitled Our Courageous Families fight to save their daughter from a serial killer, which which this gentleman was. I mean he had three victims that were that were known, so he was I guess he was just starting out and his ventures into serial killing. So this family intervened and and stopped save the daughter and probably saved who knows how many lives because they captured the serial killer in their home.
Yes, and that was a previous interview on true Murder. I suggest people recommend people might take a look at have a listen to that. Now for this book, The Angel of Decay, before we start about going through some I guess interesting things that I hadn't read before or were brought up much differently in this book and this examination of Ted Bundy. Why did you call this book Ted Bundy The Angel of Decay.
Well, I was looking for various titles. Obviously, Dan, there's so many things that have been written about in the past, and obviously and recently there's been a renewed interest because of the big movie and other social media things that are going on with the thirty years since he's been put to death. So I was just looking for an interesting title, something that would would stand out and would
interest people to look up. But because I know a lot of people are well passed who young people who were even younger than me, that don't know too much about Ted Bundy, and they are going to rely on movies which sensationalize a lot of the facts, and they don't get into all the interesting details sometimes that a book does. And I wanted to find out what more there is because I know there's so much more information available now than there was in the past, as far
as minute details about all of the girls. All lot of them have various websites where their friends families have things posted now where they talk about the lives of these girls, and I thought that was the important thing here, not just to detail the grisly crimes that the Bundy committed, which people most like it and to know about.
Let's start off with the origins of Ted Bundy, and you talk about his grandfather, Samuel Cowell's influence. So tell us who Samuel Cowell was, and then some of the characteristics of his behavior before we talk about more of the influence later when he was adopted by John Culpeper Bundy later on tell us Samuel Cowlell's influence.
Yeah, I mean, if you know anything about I've read about Sam Cowell, he's you know, an interesting relationship that he had with Ted. Because Sam Cowell was known around his not just immediate family, but around the neighborhood as a pretty nasty gentleman, abusive verbally, abusive, belief to have you know, struck his wife. So he was that kind of personality where he didn't seem well liked, but he
happened to be a deacon in his church. And if you ever, Ted Bundy never said anything negative about this man who everybody else seemed to dislike. So for some reason, either Ted Muney didn't want to talk about it and he was in denial about what his grandfather might have done, or the grandfather somehow didn't didn't abuse him in any
way verbally or physically. And Ted Mundy has nothing negative to say about him, because I was looking everywhere I could and he really had nothing but nice things to say about this man who was who at the time when when Ted was born, he was embarrassed that his daughter was having a child out of wedlock and it was a stain on the on the family. So that that was that was a big influence when Ted was
deceived early on. And people, your readers, listeners may know that Ted was deceived early on who his parents really were. His grandfather's pretended to be his father, and his actual mother was pretending to be an older sister for a while. They tried to get away with that scam. And so there's a lot of a lot of family dysfunction that was going on early on that you can see might have made a young young man feel not normal. As we can say that.
Before we talk about how we learned about specifically about his his true parentage. You write about that it was known or at least you write about that the grandfather tortured animals and had a porn collection and a big porn collection. And we will, as we talked later, we will talk about what Bundy had said about violent porn, as many of the fans might know already. But let's talk about the big porn collection and the torturing animals information that you found.
Yeah, I mean I found just a couple of references that that reference that wasn't just one, and I do with my references that that indicate that the grandfather, Sam Cowell, you know, did have a collection of pornography that he shared either openly or Ted found it and then observed them himself. But it was known that this deacon of the church had this this collection, and then that that
attracted Ted early on. And I know Ted did talk about how this, how pornography influenced him later on and in life, and his confessions while in prison, how much that created his feelings. But a lot of those confessions
that have to be taken with a grain of salt. Obviously, it was the end of his life and he was looking for for some reason, and that may not have been actual or not, but pornography itself was something that the grandfather did have in some amount what's called large by large collection for some might not be large, but it's it's observed that he did have a pornography collection of some kind and that Ted had access to it,
which may may not be unusual in some families. But for Ted, he indicated that this this affected him growing up when he became when he turned in, puberty came along and he entered middle school, he started to have some issues socially with the other children and with confidence with women. So it's hot to know exactly how that influenced him. But he did observe that he did have this collection of pornography that that Ted did have access to.
There's not much more to it than that, other than what Ted said later on and his confessions while he was in prison and death row.
Now, according to what you found, and again there's conflicting information, contradictory information. But from everything that you found, how did he find out, in particular about the true nature of his parentage who his parents really were?
And Yeah, if anybody who's written about him will he may have different opinions or they may list different ways that he found out about this from being teased by cousins of his that you know, he he was his bestard child and he didn't know who his father was being teased that way or his mother definitely did not let him know. So it was something that was that was kept a secret. So it might have been, you know, something that was he wanted to know, but she wasn't
going to give him that information. And Anne Rule actually believed that he had gone down to find out and researched himself. You know what his parentage was by going, you know, to the location where he was born and and kind of researching and finding out who gave birth to him. But again even Anne Rules says that's that's what she believes, and there's no proof of any of that. Exactly how he came to learn, you know, who his mother uh had had, you know, had sex with to
have him bring him into this world. So it was something that he wanted to know about for his whole life, and it's just something that that he never really you know, came to terms with, I believe, certainly.
You say in nineteen fifty. In nineteen fifty, Louise's mother and the family moved from Philadelphia to Coma, Washington, And you write that Bundy for seemed to miss his grandfather, but for a time they were living with his great uncle Jack, who impressed Bundy because he was successful. He was a college professor who had sent his kids off the boarding school, and he seemed to have wealth for himself,
and he seemed to be successful. But his mother met this John Culpeper Bundy at church and they were married the next year. As you write, and many other people have written as well, it seemed that Ted was forming this opinion about based opinion of people based on their success and their wealth, despite not growing up what we would categorized as poor Tulsibal thing.
Oh yes, absolutely. I think being you know, middle class to to lower middle classes not something that Bundy was, uh was interested in for himself. He saw himself as something something greater. So when he met this you know relative of his was an uncle Jack, I believe college professor probably did very well, uh could you know, travel and and go on vacation, to do all these things that his family could. And so it was something that he wanted to achieve have at least have the perception
of being wealthy. And and that was something that you can see early on and I throughout his life too, is how he wanted to portray himself. And it was something that he could not afford to live in certain that lifestyle. So to to achieve that he would steal and that that that that was something that he did his whole entire life, uh, petty theft and just getting
what he wanted through any means possible. It seems that he was had an affinity for for nice clothes and wanted to present himself as a sophisticated and and and you know, middle class to upper middle class type type of a guy. And you can tell early on at how he wanted his father, his uncle Jack, to actually
adopt him, and he wanted to be in in that family. Actually, it was believed that he actually asked his uncle Ted if he could adopt him, which was something that was pretty insulting to uh to John Bundy, who his mother had married. And and by all accounts, John Bundy, his stepfather, treated him very well and tried to include him in all the family events and and not make him seem
like an outcast as a step child. So it's just something that definitely is in Bundy's personality trait that he needed to have that monetary Uh, that stigma that he had he had something.
You right too, that he had a juvenile record based on this shoplifting and thieving and getting in minor trouble, relatively minor trouble. But at eighteen, of course the juvenile record in that state was expunged. But you say at that time he began peeping into people's windows. Tell us some of the other darker things that he was interested in that time.
Uh, yeah, absolutely, Dan, It seemed that that was something he had an interest in. And you know, he he talked about how he was interested in those detective magazines at the time that came out. They were kind of sallacious, Uh. They were pretty strong, R rated magazine type things, and they had crime, you know, they were featured crimes and they usually violence was involved in them. They would be bloody bodies, and it was something a magazine that he enjoyed.
I guess because they combined you know, pornography with with sex. And you can't say that the magazines created that in him. They would have to have been something inside him that was attracted to that for for some other reason. Because you show a magazine like that to different people and they're not gonna turn into what he did. So you know, he can blame he can him, you know, visualizing and seeing those magazines for the reason for what he did. But you know he's he'd be smart enough to know
that that's that's not entirely true. It's a pretty complex you know, what what what happens to somebody when they when they turn into a serial killer? I was they' ball in that way or what influences them along the way? There and that's a whole other discussion too, Dan. But as far as how he you know, how he got into peeping, is it just an adolescent curiosity, which is which is one thing, and then that happens as well. And again those those children don't turn into serial killers either.
But this is something that did interest him, you know, obviously as a young boy, peeping and the pornography, and and it's just something that he he talked about and it was it was well known as well, because his neighbors would see him and he did get in trouble for stealing and doing these different things. And so it's just part of what what he was when he was a young man.
You're right though, that his need for at least outwardly anyway, but his need for normalcy in He graduated in sixty five and then he enrolled at the University of Puget Sound. Later next year transferred to the University of Washington, and there is where he became romantically involved with the University of Washington classmate, and he used a studium. It is a studium. Stephanie Brooks, a pretty wealthy girl from California.
As we talked about this before, but I don't think people can get enough of this incredible seems cause and effect. Here tell us about this woman and the relationship and Ted Bundy's reaction to meeting this woman, what he thought of this relationship, and what happened in that relationship.
Yeah, this is one of the things that many, many psychologists will point to us saying, you know, this is something that really influenced him and created in anger and a need to control because he fell in love with this woman, Stephanie Brooks as they call her. She was a very pretty, wealthy girl from California. Her family was from San Francisco, and she had all the classic looks.
I guess that he desired with the long dark hair, being very pretty and this they whatever relationship they had, he wanted more from it, and I guess she wanted something differently than what he had to offer her. And when he dropped out of college and decided to get into politics, he started volunteering. I think at the first it was with the Seattle office of the Nelson Rockefeller
presidential campaign. He got involved in politics and dropped out of school, and I guess maybe that that may have an influenced turning her off as far as he wasn't pursuing an education.
In a.
Career somewhere beyond you know, volunteering in politics. So she left went to San Francisco to be bet with her family, leaving him behind. Officially, you know, they were broken up. She she left him, and that devastated him, I believe, and most psychologists say the same thing, that he didn't know how to handle that rejection, that loss of control. That's something that he wanted, that was in his grasp
and it got away. And then people think that this is something that really angered him and set him off on a path of what he started to do immediately afterwards.
And rule and again, she's got a lot of credibility with me and almost everyone else. She believed that around that time, he drove to Burlington, Vermont and found his birth certificate including his real father's name. Although he never have said that to investigators, that would account for quite a bit, wouldn't it.
Yeah, you could see how that would set him off to that would be a definite start, because he did suddenly drive off and drive across country to Philadelphia to see his parents, and you could see him stopping off in Vermont to actually, you know, find out more and investigate. You know, what's what's wrong with me?
What?
Why can't I keep a girl? Why am I thinking these things? So it might have definitely might have triggered that. And again he never admitted. He admitted to many things. Bundy admitted to many things he didn't do, many things he did do. So it's really hot to say when he found out, But I know andrul knew him, spoke to him, and I believe she probably had a sense
about him, even if she wasn't told directly that. This is when he found out when he went to investigate himself in Vermont, in the in the area where he was born, in that home for unwed mothers, where his mother gave birth to him.
Now and shortly after, which is fall nineteen sixty nine, in Washington again University of Washington, he met Elizabeth Klopfer. She was twenty four years old from Salt Lake City. He's the secretary at the University of Washington School of medicinely divorced with a three year old girl, Tina. What I found fascinating was that in your book you have much more information about this, again seemingly normal Ted Bundy in a family situation with Elizabeth Clofer not his ideal
type of woman by any means. But tell us a little bit, as you write in a book about this seemingly normal Ted Bundy in his family situation.
Yeah, even before the family situation, Dan, when they when they first met and you described how how they met in a bar and the eyes across you know, that whole romantic setting, and how we swept her off her feet dancing that night and they spent the night together and then the next morning he made breakfast. That just starting from that, it was like, you know, this this guy is normal or he is he acting normal? Or is he is he wrestling with some demon that he's
got two sides to him. Because the night they had together and the relationship that started from that night is uh, you wouldn't think it was possible from a man that that had would do the things that he was about to do. And uh, you know with the three year old daughter as well, I mean they got they got on like like it was his, uh, his own daughter. He treated her so well. By by all accounts, they
were the perfect couple. He seemed very happy. From outsiders, people who knew him, friends of Elizabeth's and she just was was all thinking that this is this is the man, this is gonna be the one that I'm going to settle down with and then raise my daughter with. And it seemed to be going so well at that point. So if you if the story stopped there, and uh, it would be it would be one thing. But it but it didn't, and it progressed into into what he
became in the Serial Killer. But from that point on, this this is something that I find fascinating. How he could live this life and then all of a sudden just just change over into something else. Fascinating.
Yes, it's interesting too that you had another fascinating detail that people might know about. But the parents met and it was a good meeting. When he met her parents and he again he was still looking for this upper middle class existence and he was impressed by it. So her dad was a dentist that was appealing to Bundy,
and her parents liked Ted. Unfortunately, when Elizabeth met his mother and stepfather, the tension you write in between the mother and Ted was obvious, and it seemed that Ted it was a good example of Ted kind of resenting his small, humble roots.
Yeah, absolutely, you know, his stepfather being you know, a cook, his mom's secretariat at the Methodist church, and it just wasn't what he preferred. I mean, they were they were nice people. They treated him so well that that should have been enough, and they had enough to get by. They wasn't like they were poor. But he just wanted more. He wanted that that let's say, you know, a dentist is a little bit you know, higher up in his his eye as far as uh, you know, what what
culture and lifestyle can bring. And he wanted that for himself. And obviously he thought he was exposed with showing Elizabeth his family. He thought that she would be put off by the way he would have been by showing him his uh, how his family lived, and she wasn't. It was really all in his own mind how he perceived himself and not how others perceived him. So he he you know, he made it through that because she did
not have any problems with his family. He had the problem with his family, and that's something that he always carried with him, resentment for their for their you know, income, uh, and for his mom for you know, not not telling him who his father was. So I think that resentment just just continued to grow throughout the years as in his adulthood.
You right, too. Incredible events happened in the early seventies. Ted Is twenty four saves a three year old boy from drowning and then really receives a second commendation from Seattle Police Department. And I'll tell us a little bit about these acts of heroism. Again, unbelievable considering what he ends up being.
Yeah, and you would think that this guy, what he's about to do with his life. He sees a little boy struggling in the water, maybe not drowning, but definitely in dire straits, and doesn't see anybody else around, his parents or anybody else, and he takes the initiative to jump into this water and you know, just get him out of it while he was struggling. And it's an instinct. It's an instinct to save a life. And knowing everything people know about Bundy, you would think that his instinct
is to take lives first. But I mean, obviously it was as a three year old child and not not his typical victim, but he still took that initiative to you know, save a life. And in another instant I found out too fascinating was somebody. That's something that he did was was steal from women, steal from their purses, and a lot of times in supermarkets probably he would, you know, when they're not looking, going to their person,
take money. So that's what he did. And one afternoon he's had a mall doing who knows what, but he actually was leaving the mall when he saw somebody a man steal a woman's purse and run off with it. And he would think he would he would be more sympathetic to the robber here, but he actually saw this happen and went and chased down this this persnatcher and received accommodation for that because he did hold the uh,
the person there until the police came by. So again, if it's an act that you normally wouldn't associate, you would think that that's that that can't be true, that
that's made up. There are accounts of this, and obviously he got accommodations from the police, so there there's you know, records of that and either something happened to him from that from that day on or this is these are these are two different people working here, one one normal type Ted Bundy and one that is gonna go on a stereo killing streak like in the next couple of years. It's just an amazing, amazing fact to bring to light to people who don't may not have known this about Ted Bundy.
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Right. Also, in continuing with this at least look like normalcy, he volunteers for the Seattle Suicide Hotline crisis Center, where he meets and rule which they become friends. She's fifteen older, fifteen years older than Bundy. And he receives his first degree in psychology from the University of Washington in nineteen seventy two, and again is working in politics for reelection in the campaign of Governor Daniel Evans. Yeah now tell us.
In nineteen seventy three, things seem to have been turned around for him, and he's doing the kinds of things that are very, very impressive to him, and he's rubbing elbows with people, so he's getting the kind of attention
that he always wanted. This is nineteen seventy three. He's been accepted into law schools at the University of Utah and the University of Puget Sound and got letters of condemnation by people like Governor Governor Evans tell us what Ted Bunny's doing at that time, and Stephanie, Oh, yes.
Yes, yes, definitely, Dan. This is fascinating how he must have had this all planned out. Obviously, he got through school, got a degree in psychology, and he's entered he's he actually got accepted. He hasn't accepted which one yet, but he's either he can go to the University of Utah or the University of Pugtons Sound to study law. And
now he's involved in politics again. And he goes on this trip that takes him to uh to California for for what he's what he's doing in politics, and he figures, I'm going to look up my old girlfriend Stephanie Brooks. He would think he'd still be bitter, but here he is. He goes out and finds her, pursues her, and she's very impressed at where he is and in life. Now this is, you know, several years later, and she's so impressed that she she wants to continue to start to
see him again. But obviously he has something else on his mind. He would think that this would make him happy that he achieved something by working hard, getting the degree and getting the girl, but he has alternative motives in mind here where he shows her a look at look at me, Look what I've done, Look what I can become, and he all of a sudden, he just turns on her and just he basically just dropped out
of her life without even telling her why. They seem to be getting along very well, moving towards something even perhaps marriage, when he just stops calling her, avoiding her phone calls and all together just not not reaching out her, and she doesn't know what's happening. And there's a brief conversation that they have that that's been written about where she finally does get a hold of him on the phone and she demands she's upset, like why are you
not returning my call with what's going on? And Ted Bundy's reply with Stephanie, I have no idea what you mean, and then hangs up on her. I mean, it's just so you can't even imagine somebody doing something like that. How angry he could have been with her for the initial breakup that he would, you know, show up on her doorstep and engage in trying to gain her love back and then just throwing it back in her face.
As a revengeful tactic like that. It's just it's hard to comprehend somebody going through all that, especially with somebody that he's supposedly, you know, loved and in a way that he he hadn't be So this is this is just a fascinating, you know, psychological profile for for anybody that studies that kind of thing, I believe, it's just it's just really incredible.
At the same time, what was his relationship with Elizabeth and how much did he tell Elizabeth about Stephanie Brooks if any?
Yeah, no, they that was something totally separate. He you know, nobody, nobody knew what this guy was doing. Uh, even the people closest to him obviously, you know, the thoughts that were going through his mind were one thing. But the other women he was seeing, he did not let them know about that. So that was that was that was a secret, like many many things in Bondie's life, was a secret he kept from from everybody he did, and
he may even have other other girls. There was speculation that he had of the date, was going on dates when he was in different times in school, when he was in college, and uh, it is hot to find a lot of these women who he dated to find out what he was like. But uh, he did date, and he he did he did go out on with these women and Elizabeth knew nothing about it.
You right, that about that time, young women in the Pacific Northwest began to disappear by the spring of nineteen seventy four. What was Ted Bundy doing in terms of school, in terms of his career, what happened and what were the first reported women that disappeared?
Yeah, well, actually, Daniel, it was right after he threw through Stephanie Stephanie Brooks overboard and then told her to get lost. This is really when the victims began. The first victim survived. It was Karen Sparks and that was in January fourth, nineteen seventy four. She survived a brutal attack. I mean it really was. It was horrible. I mean, she survived, but it left her with permanent injuries, brain damage and other internal organ injuries. And it was the
first known attack by Bundy. There's been speculation that he had other victims before that. With the book addresses and there are numerous places I found information that their possibilities the people he may have killed. But this is the first actual known victim of his and it began January right after, right after this breakup with Stephanie Brooks, and it continued. It was immediately right away. There was another one on January fourth, a few days later. Karen's box
was the first one. She was only yeah, she was eighteen, all right, she was eighteen. So on February first, he killed twenty one year old Linda Ann Heally. That was his first victim that he killed. So right now that there's a spiral going on, and it happens, it happened very quickly. How we started to get on this this path of destruction. It seemed that breakup with Brooks set him off, because he just went on on a spree.
It seems like about one a month right through the summer, from January through June, all in the Washington, Oregon are Pacific northwest, where he six women went missing right away, and nobody knew he was doing this, not his girlfriend, not anybody. So this was something that was a big, big news item going on at the time. Six months, six victims, all in the same area.
Very interesting. In your book, you have a person I've never read about specifically, was a Marilynn Chino was best friends with Elizabeth, and so you write about her impressions of Ted Bundy at that time. Tell us a little bit about Marilynn Gino because she's important to the story a little bit later, as of course, Elizabeth's importance grows in the Bundy story as well.
Yeah, I mean, Gino was somebody that you probably don't get too much if you read about her. There are quite a few of you surprisingly, quite a few videos. She's done some interviews that more recently than than in the far past, so these are something that you'll find currently. And that's how I found a very open woman who spoke about her friendship with Elizabeth, and she got to know Ted through that that that friendship with her best friend,
and she found Ted to be interesting, non threatening. He was somebody that she could talk to about politics, which was something that she liked to do. And it was just fascinating how this woman had no clue about what Ted was like. I mean, obviously he was putting on a persona, you know, for Elizabeth and for for everybody, what his true nature was. He was something that he
was hiding. So yeah, she knowed at first, you know, it was charmed as well by by Ted, but later on, as the body count starts to accumulate, and there was eventually a sketch was done by a police artist showing somebody that looked pretty much liked Ted almost exactly, and describing a VW bug that he drove. I mean this these are things that maybe Elizabeth didn't want to process and admit to herself. And it was it was Chino who who kind of like told her, you know, this
is this can't be a coincidence. I mean that this could be you know, your boyfriend here. And she's the one that initiated him that you should look into this a little more deeply think about this, and she's the one that convinced him her eventually to Elizabeth to call the police and tell them that, you know what, I think the tend that you're looking for is my Ted
that I've been dating Ted Bundy. So it really she really had an influence in Elizabeth and helping her see you know what other people were saying that she could not.
It's interesting too that you you you talk about the Elizabeth calling authorities after Gino urges her to do so, and and yet and she tells the police. I don't know. She calls them three separate times. Yeah, the first time, I don't know if it's the first of the second time she actually tells them, hey, this is what the kind of things that he has in his car and
lists those things as you do in the book. Tell us which one of these conversations where she tells police some of the things that are in the car and tell us some of the contents that she lists.
Yeah, I mean, she she gave them a lot of information. It wasn't just you know, basically leaving your name and your number. And I believe because a lot of people were calling in saying, you know what I like anytime this this kind of thing's happened, you will get a lot of people calling and saying, I think I know who the killer is. And so obviously she was put on on a list. But she gave a lot of
information that you would think would stick out. The strange behavior that that he was, you know, that he was performing even on her, that he that that she realized was odd only only later on. At first when it was happening, she didn't think it was it was too odd. For instance, on a on a July fourth rafting trip. They were together, just going down paddling on one of those one of those rafts blow up rafts, and uh,
all of a sudden and Ted just throws her overboard. Basically, she's sitting on the edge and he pushes her into the water, and she's struggling to get back into the boat, and he is not assisting her at all. He's just sitting there, according to her, with this blank stare on his face, just looking off in the distance, and she's
struggling to get back in the boat. And she just thought it was odd, but she didn't think too much of it until all of these things accumulated and she confessed to the police that, you know what, this guy has a has these tools in his car and even in my car, things like like lug wrenches and and things that he doesn't use for anything because he's not very handy in that way. But there were crutches in there, they were knives, there was meat cleaver. So all these
things together just struck her as odd. And she reported all this stuff to the police, who just took the information and said, thanks, we'll call you back if we need you. So it wasn't registering that or the police were so overwhelmed with what they were getting they had to sort through things one at a time, and they didn't get to it quickly enough for sure, because a lot more women were about to be killed. So it was just something that she reported. Yet she continued to
date him, which was another just another odd thing. Why you if you suspected your boyfriend of being a killer, that you would continue a relationship, which which she did.
In this Yes, you write in this that once there was reports of six missing women along with the brutal beating of Karen Sparks and an ap period in newspapers and TV throughout Washington and Oregon. You talk about a cloud of fear, how it over the population, and then he found a similar Much of this information is that he struck out a few times so that later people came forward and said this was you know, the similar
adoption attempt was ascertained by police. You talk about Bundy working at in Olympia at the Department of Energy Services, state government agency, which you write and I'd never read this before, among other things, was involved in the search for these missing women, and there is where Bundy met Carol Ane Boone tell us about all of this.
Yeah, that's fascinating too. So you figure, you know, he's working at he was working at that hotline for, you know, suicide crisis highline before that. And you think some people believe that he liked to be around people under that kind of stress, people who were desperate. What he enjoyed from that, I don't know, but he could not have been doing it to help people. Didn't seem at that time that he was he was in that mode. So they had to be something he was doing, uh, involved
in suicide hotline for. But then when he met yeah, when he met Carol working for the Department Energy Services DS. Yeah, it was a state a state government agency, and yeah, one of the things they were doing was involved in
finding those those missing women. So maybe he wanted to have a little uh his pulse on what uh the police knew, what the investigators were doing, how close they were getting to to the solving the crime to him maybe and he wanted to uh And strange enough, that's when uh, you know him, he and Carol and Boone met someone who would be a major part of his
life later on. And you know, another woman who was you know, captivated by him in a an entirely an entirely different way, obviously because of the realtionship they had, but that's where they met, and it's it's a fascinating account. I do kind of describe what I've what I've read about about the beginning of their relationship. And she had a son at the time, teenage son, James. She was divorced,
and there's not too much written. I wanted to find out more about actually James at the time, and there's not a lot written about Carolyne Boone's son James until actually later on. There's a little bit when when Ted's in prison on death row, the sun comes to visit Ted quite a bit near the very end, but there's is not too much written about James.
Yes, very interesting. Let's use this, Paul just for a second to stop to talk about our sponsor, which is Shutter, AMC's Network's. Shutter is a premium streaming video service super serving fans of all degrees with the best selection of horror and thrillers, shutters, irrepressible and thriving community rebels, and
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Seven days just won't do it. I've signed up. Also watched a MC visionaries Eli Ross History of Horror, a Shutter exclusive right now. To sh try Shutter for free for thirty days, go to shutter dot com and use promo code true. That's Shutter s h U d d e R. To try Shutter for thirty days free, go to shutter dot com and use promo code true Shutter s h U d d e R. Now, Paul, we were talking about the very important women in Ted's life.
But he just met and started interacting with Carol Anne Boone, and you mentioned later on in Death Row the very interesting Uh, she's not visiting him anymore, but he ends up the son James ends up visiting Bundy in prison. We'll get you to talk about that a little bit later. Now with these with the of course, Bundy moves from state to state, and from Utah he moves to Colorado. Yes, let's talk about Carol Anne Boone. And let's also talk about Bundy. Once he is is being hunted, we'll say
he's being known there. The word is that Ted is a suspect. Tell us a little bit about that.
Oh yeah, well, when he becomes a suspect. It's it's it's not something that people are sure about, even the police who find him when he's first even when he first caption and caught in Utah. I mean, he's got these tools in his car, and he's got this uh this car, this car seat in the in the front that's now in the back, and all these these signs that appoint you to this guy is doing more than what the burglarizing places, because you know, this is there's
just there's not enough evidence had to show that. But they all had a hunch she was he was up to no good, and but there was no evidence there was obviously there's nobody to collaborate what he did. He he he killed all his victims, and when he becomes a suspect, you know, his his girlfriend continues, Elizabeth continues to call the police, like you said it was.
It was.
It was three times, three separate times in three different jurisdictions, when you know, in Washington and then in in uh in Idaho, there's the Colorado authorities are looking for him, and and she's letting them know that I believe, you know, my boyfriend might be responsible. His name is Teddy looks like the sketches. He drives the Volkswagen, and he's just still on this list of of possible people who could do this, but he's still not not quite up there yet.
And it does it takes, unfortunately, it takes too many more victims for them to you know, to get to him, to just sort through all the other information that they've they've been getting. So it's really, you know, sad that it took. It took three different you know, state authorities investigating these crimes to figure out that, you know, he was the one and to stop him. So it's kind of it's it's sad that I'm in researching this, going through all the victims, and it's just it's overwhelming to
look at them. And it's thought that a book like this, where you find out all this information about all these women who just were young and had their whole life ahead of them, very very sad, And it's just unfortunately the police didn't have the ability they have today to communicate and the different technologies that they have, because this
never would have happened today. Just all the different seeds if you look at them, what would have happened with cameras and different people witnesses, how they would have found him earlier. That's what struck me is that this just should not have happened today. It wouldn't be forty years ago. It was just a different time.
What's interesting you obviously include every single attack, You include possible victims. You include the victims that basically have been proven basically from forensic evidence later on and DNA, and you know where the skulls were separated from the bodies. So these are confirmations that are well known, and you list to some potential victims. What's found interesting is of course the assertion that Bundy killed when he was a paperboy at fourteen. You've included this, and some people discuss
it differently. Why do you think this is possible? And tell us about was interesting was Anne Marie Burr's father and the information about seeing Bundy on the construction site. Tell us about that. I had never read about that particular detail before. Tell us about Ann Reaperr.
Oh, yeah, I mean this was yeah, August, yeah, thirty first, nineteen sixty one. I believe in you know, Bundy would have been fourteen years old, had to believe he had a paper route, but as a paper boy I mean, you would think of somebody that that was a serial killer. That was if you believe you're born with this desire early on, it should show itself in some way, some attempt, some thought, some action, and this would be in line with that. You know, fourteen and puberty is set in
and he has access. He's you know, a paper boy. This is something you can look into houses, you know who lives there, doors, windows, and this this you know, this young girl went missing and you know, Ted Bundy is in the neighborhood. He's a paper boy and even you know and rule and I believe that this was possible that he might have been he might have killed this eight year old girls in Tacoma, Washington. And as
far as details go, I mean, she she disappeared. But the father of this young girl believes that you know, Ted, Ted did this. And obviously many years lady look back and you say, look, look this, this Ted Bundy was a young child in my neighborhood and my girl was missing and Ted was was just seen at a you know,
a local little area. There was like a little construction site where Ted was seen and his father extrapolated that you know, maybe he did this and was burying the body up there when I saw him in that construction site, in that pile of pile of dirt. But there's no proof nothing was ever found, and even Ted Bundy went to the extreme of writing a letter in nineteen eighty six to the Burr family saying that you know that
these are rumors that about him. He did not have anything to do with the girl's disappearance, and this was on death row, so he would have had nothing to gain or lose by admitting to another crime if he committed it. So some people still believe he was lying, as he did so often, and others believed that this
it just didn't happen. So it's really almost something that each individual has to talk about and make make good in their own mind because there's no way to know either way what happened when both people people deny it and other people will speculate that it might have happened. So it's just fascinating to know that this possibly did happen, but there is no proof.
To lend credence to the idea though that you write, and I've read this before, that the child was known to Ted Bundy and was actually known to hang around ted Bundy and was not attracted to him, but they were playmates in sort of some way, and she had even been seen just holding onto his pant leg.
So yes that they were. They weren't like strangers like that that did. They did know each other well enough to talk and say hi. And he being a little bit older on his bike, she being younger, she would you know, chase them down the road and be friendly in that way. So he might have felt like, you know what, there's something maybe I can get away with this, because she did disappear in the middle of the night and she was in her room, which was one of
those strange disappearances like that. And to have somebody known to you to let them in the house, that's always how it works. It's people believed that investigative believed that it was somebody known to the to her and had access to the house and knew the layout of the house, which he certainly would have. But like I said, it could have been him. He did have the opportunity, and you know what motive they would be besides uh, those those feelings of uh destroying other lives that that was
going on in his mind. Besides that, there was really no no a way to know that he did that, but they said it is interesting and it is possible that he still may have done that even though he denied it and that there's no real physical evidence proving it.
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We have to skip ahead just for purpose of brevity here, but were for Kyomega for practical purposes. After Kyomega, after those brutal murders and his final descent into madness and murder so many people in at one time he was obsessed to kill and maim and try to destroy and
snuff out their lives. And then you talk about in the book in some length about all of the various things that he did say, what he did confess to, what he did allude to, the various confessions even right up to the very end with doctor Dobson said, some things at least have to be considered important.
Uh.
And Stephen Leshad is the author that wrote the book with Bundy about Bundy. UH had a lot of things that Bundy had said and has been published and known. Tell us a little bit about those confessions and what they told you in their entirety. What you can deduce from some of those well, all of those confessions and.
Yessions, Yeah, Dan, and there was there was, There were so many, especially at the end. I mean I grew up when I was growing up, Ted Bundy was in jail, and a lot of the stuff was coming out about what he said and what he did. They were looking for more bodies, and I remember just thinking that and people reporting that he was just making these things up to prolong try to get a stay of execution, to help people find bodies instead of, you know, avoiding being
executed quickly. But there was so many things that he said, and it was frustrating in a way to research a lot of that because what he said. A lot of the things he said couldn't be proved. I mean, and all the victims that he that he listed the information about them, there's nobody else that could tell authorities what happened other than him, so he had to rely on on his words. When they knew that he was lying about a lot of a lot of the different things
he confessed. He confessed to killing people with women that he didn't kill. We knew that. They knew that he killed certain women that he didn't talk about. He didn't give any details at all about what he did with
these women and where they were. So it was very frustrating trying to put these things together because there were so many victims and several dump sites and sometimes the head would have been removed, and so there's no detail of how the head was removed where some believe he took them the heads home with him, grizzly as that sounds,
and then buried them in another side. So and I do try to get my finger, my hands on a lot of that information, and I do list everything where all the bodies were found, where all the victims were, how they were handled by him, and but there's no real way to know what he did because he didn't confess to everything. It was just minute details, and he left out the larger parts of everything, what he did with the women and where he disposed of their bodies afterwards.
It just wasn't enough information. And I think that's that's what he kept from from authorities because I think he knew. He thought that, you know what, I'm gonna give him a little bit at a time, and this will prolong my death sentence. And but it just wasn't gonna happen because the governor of Florida was not about to let him, uh, you know, be in charge of his own death this way. They were going to set a time and when the courts said that your times up, then your times up.
So it was very frustrating for me to find out where all these women were what became of them, if that makes sense.
Mm hmm. It's interesting that there's again lots of speculation that he brought the heads home, but you don't get so much confirmation for some of the stuff. It's it's I guess there's an inference, certainly, but you talk about actual confirmation of some of the things that he said regarding posing, makeup, dressing up. Tell us a little bit about what you write in your book about that.
Yeah, there were a couple of times he did admit that he would, you know, spend some time with some of the bodies. He would go and visit them multiple times as they were you know, decomposing, uh, and the sometimes spend the night with them in the woods. Obviously. Sometimes he had even admitted to having you know, sex
and necrophilia was a part of the ritual. But you know, so we're you know, shampooing and he must have you know, brought shampoo to to shampoo their hair and apply even apply makeup and nail polish to some of the victims you mentioned Melissa Smith is one of them, and Laura Amy, who were victims of his, and he described that, yeah, I went there and I would put clothes on them as well, because some of the victims were found with clothes that did not belong to them, so he had
so he would be doing these things, and he mentioned it, you know, offhand, that he did that like it was no big deal. There's certain times he would mention it, but it wasn't something he gave in great detail. He would just mention basically what I did, without going into any detail. And obviously he might have been doing this all along to many of the victims, but he didn't
admit to it besides these few cases. So you got to assume that these if he had a proclivity for this kind of activity, it was something he did to many of the victims and not just the couple that he mentioned. So it just it just leaves a bad tasting mouth because it's like, you wonder if if he was going into these these dumb sizes after the bodies would first drop there by him and he was carrying
on with him in this way. It's just something you don't, I guess you don't want to think about, And maybe he didn't want people to think that about him either because he didn't he didn't offer much detail at all about the activities with even the beheadings, how they were done and which you know, which ones were carried out where.
It's just it's just grizzly to think about. And but obviously, you know, authorities, that's their job, but they just really couldn't get couldn't get it out of him all the information that was needed.
Interesting you write in about and I've read this before, but more detail in your book the trial in Miami, Carol am Boone and Bundy become very close, and her and her son actually moved to Florida to be near Bundy, unbelievably despite the information that she was hearing reading and must have known. I mean, tell us a little bit more about Caroline Boone and what happens with.
Yeah, well, she held out hope that you know, this is this is not her her ted even though she must have known deep down it was. But she she she stayed by his side through you know, through all this, right up and right up until right up until the end. I mean, it is something that it's hard to believe with all the evidence and all the victims, that you know, she would stick by him, and obviously they they became so close that she wanted to be with him. She
moved there, her and her son. But he also decided to uh propose marriage to her during during during court and uh it was it was legal because he asked her in front of a judge and her accepting it and uh, in that situation was made it to legal legal, you know, legal marriage for them. And what was fascinating was that they decided to even go ahead and try to have a child. Somehow they even though conjugal visits were not permitted at the at the institution where he
was staying in Florida, they they found a way. They had a guard who would turn his back for a lot of the inmates for for a certain amount of money and would allow the inmate and the woman to conjugate.
And uh, this is what Ted Bundy did. He had he had money and he paid a guard to turn turn aside one afternoon and uh, maybe it was more than one afternoon, but it was believed that it was at some point she she was impregnated by Ted Bundy in the prison with with a guard who was not h had his back turned and she became pregnant and had a child, you know, nine months nine months later rose Rose Boone and that that's a fascinating chapter that I do detail what what went on in the prison
was believed to have gone on, and how these inmates, uh you know, collected money for for this kind activity. It's pretty amazing and it's not surprising, but it's still still amazing.
I think, yeah, you right that Boone died in twenty twelve, but the daughter of Roses whereabouts have been kept secret. Then no one knows where she is, probably luckily on her behalf.
Yeah, I mean, you would think that they would be investigators, you know, trying to you know, get that story out of But whatever however she did that she changed her name, moved out of the country, who knows where. But it's fascinating that no one's been able to find her. She hasn't come out to want to speak or write a book or do any of those things. And you can understand why, but you always think that, you know, somehow some reporter can can find out and then get the truth.
But it's just maybe they're respecting her right to privacy, and it's it's got to be an awful stain on a family to have that kind of legacy, and you know, it's just it's just fortunate that they they've been able to stay away from her, and fortunate it wasn't you know, if it was a male child, you would wonder if he would be born with the same kinds of affliction Ted had, And if there was a serial killing going on, would they presume that, you know what, Ted Bundy's child,
Ted Brundie's son is responsible. So it's just one of those things where we're glad that she's hopefully having a good and normal life.
Mm hmm.
You right too. Up to as many as two hundred letters per day from women fans writing to Bundy, and he corresponded with many of them right up to the very end, up to two hundred letters a day.
Yeah, I mean, he was. He was a celebrity to a lot of women, and even today you can see how there's still a fascination with him, and a lot of women too are I know, many of that that
are interested in the story. They're not in the grizzly details of what he did, but there is some you know, fascination that still continues to linger and a lot of myths about him that you know, need to be debunked because how he is portrayed was probably not anywhere near what he was like in real life as far as his ability to you know, gain the women's at tension the way people think he did. I mean, obviously Elizabeth
was somebody didn't seem to fit his profile. Maybe he saw some week to send her that that he could, that he could benefit from and exploit. But a lot of the times, just doing the research I did, a lot of the people, the women that survived attempted attacks from him, described him in ways that were not flattering as far as being stammering, he couldn't speak well, he had trouble even Actually a lot of the times some of the women thought he was drunk. Some of them
smelled alcohol on them. So and that's another thing that's that's not talk about often, just how much he drank. There's really no way to gauge that. He didn't talk too much about it, but it was obviously something that he he drank a lot. He was always at the bars, and he was probably he was probably drunk when he
made these when he killed these women. So it's really fascinating to know, I wish there was more information about how much alcohol he drank, what and where and how that influenced his behavior, if he needed it to get through what he was doing, or being drunk something that made it something that he could do more easily. It's just not enough information out there. It's just unfortunate.
It's fascinating to read about all these women's particular cases where they were attacked, where some survived, where like in the sorority houses, where there were witnesses to this. At first they didn't even know what had happened to their roommates. But it's even more fascinating for the stories that you have included here where the victims narrowly missed the clutches
of Ted bun Be. You know, either he was too drunk or they thought something they felt something instinctively was off and so they didn't put themselves in the same situation as the other victims were. It is fascinating to find out that everything about his mo was found out from these people, albeit sometimes when it was far too late. But a reconstruction of how he did things is now known and chronicled in your book, along with other people's books on how exactly the ruse he employed and how
he was able to do what he did. You, as we talked about in the introduction for your book, this is about the Victims, tell us about some of the research that you did and some of the people that weren't so well known that you did get a chance to speak to.
Well, a lot of my research was done. I didn't speak to anybody verbally, but there were some communications going on because a lot of these these women and their friends I mentioned earlier, they do have different sites memorializing them and waste to contact the person who put the
information on the site. And it was just fascinating because they talked about things that the women did and wanted to do with their lives, what they were majoring in, or what their personalities were like, and what they you know, when they got out of school, what they wanted to do. And again a lot of them were you so young too that they really didn't even have that to Some of them was, you know, seventeen years old, and you know, and in high school, a couple in junior high school.
So it's hot to get a lot of information on someone that young. They really haven't done too much, right, There was enough to at least list every woman who you know, was a possible victim, even the possible victims I listed, because there is been there has been a number that people believe he's responsible for for making these women disappear and not knowing what happened to because they're just they vanished and there's nothing, nothing and found. So
they believed Bundy's responsible. So I went through and I listed each one of these as well, and he even named some victims that police said he couldn't have done it, so he actually lied about some of the victims that
he he did have. So I mean, it's just something that I wanted to make sure all the women were I could get as much information about them as I could to you know, show a reader that they're not just not just victims of this guy, and that they were actually you know, women go up to become you know, mothers of their own grandmothers someday, and it's just said that they never got a chance because of Bundy.
And certainly the outrage too of things like the public display of marriage proposal to Carol Anne Boone in the case him defending himself and then of course being able to cross examine victims in the courtroom, to be able to stare them down and to laugh and treat the thing, especially in the beginning, with a lot of disrespect to
everybody involved. It was truly very interesting for when you write about Ted Bundy in the end, desperate to have someone he listened to him, desperate to be involved, to help out in the potential bid to be able to avoid execution, whereas if he would have admitted or pardon me, if he would agree to a plea bargain, he would not have been executed, Which is a very interesting psychological statement, isn't it.
Yeah, No, that's fascinating. If that and all accounts of that is the case that he could have actually gotten away with his life, but that he was too at the time, at that stage maybe of the trial he thought he could get away with it, and he didn't want to settle for life in prison, which is what he would have gotten, but to be you know, put to death. I don't know he he actually thought they
would go that far. And uh, but the deal wasn't It wasn't a fact he could have pled out, and I just maybe he just believed that, you know what these other cases were gonna they want to get to me eventually, and they're gonna get evidence to stick, and I'm gonna be put to death anyway. So maybe he just thought he would roll the dice and try to
get off on some technicality of some kind. But but yeah, there was a deal in place to uh to keep keep him off death row, and he decided to represent himself in court and then try to win the case. As crazy as that sounds, with all the victims that were lined up against him and only the few that that he was being in charge with at the time, it was just you only need one one capital offense in Florida and you're you're put on death row. So he was gambling and he took up bing gambling lost.
It's interesting too you talk about the role that his mother, Louise had in his psycho sexual development, I would say, or his his development as a as a child and then a man. What did she think about these charges? Did she believe it? And what was was she there supporting him? What as you write tell us about.
Yeah, yeah, I mean that that that's something that's I thought it was kind of hot rendering because he was a mom, a typical mom, and every sense she seemed to adore this, this this son of hers, and even whether she thought he was guilty or not, she believed he was at least a good, good boy who couldn't have done these things. In her mind, he wasn't this this raging serial killer that did these things to women. And but she stayed by him the whole time, even through,
you know, right up until the end. I mean, she was she was. She was there for him and telling him that she was his good boy and that she loved him. And so it's kind of sad because she did speak a little bit about it to the press.
She didn't do too many interviews, but she did, she did some, and it just comes across as as a typical said mother who who couldn't believe that her son could have done these things, which is a lot a lot of the case you hear when serial killer is a card, and a lot of times it's it's the mom, and and it's usually sometimes as the dad not there being abusive that that is kind of not the cause.
But you see that more. You see a supportive mom who maybe too supportive, overlooking things and not getting him some help maybe, but she she loved him and that that showed, and there's a whole chapter on her and the relationship that they had.
We mentioned again very interested. I've never read this before about James Boone, Carol's son. He had come three times previously in the previous week, and he came the final evening of Ted Bundy's life. What was tell us a little bit more about the relationship.
Yeah, I mean, it's odd, it seems have come out of nowhere because during the cost of his life, you don't hear him mentioned very much at all. Yet during this time when he's about to about to be killed behind the electric chair, he's uh, he stopped coming around, and then it seems like Ted's gone very uh he's done does a lot, doing a lot of praying at the end of the last couple of days, and uh, James was a very freaking visitor there especially, I think
it was three times in that the last week. He and this this gentleman named John Tanner who was a lawyer in Florida, and I guess he became like a spiritual advisor. So between James and uh, this mister Tanner, John Tanner, they they they kind of, you know, kept Bundy's mind at he's when he's about to be electrocuted and within days and for some reason, you know, James Boone was somebody that felt something that he needed to be around Ted at that time and felt some something
for him and wanted to be there. Fascinating that we couldn't talk to him, But dynamic that's involved in that would be fascinating to find out more about, that's for sure.
You read about the execution forty two witnesses, twelve reporters. I thought that was interesting, and the executioner was paid one hundred and fifty dollars in cash. Meanwhile outside there's protests, two thousand people celebrating. Tell us about Gary Ridgeway and the idea of a competition, we'll say, and maybe the reason why Bundy volunteered to help in that investigation.
Oh yeah, well yeah, the Green River killer was in stalking his territory basically, And there have been people who speculate that, you know what, serial killers have this this personality trait where they need to be in control, they need to be looked at as somebody who's important. And here's this this Green River killer coming along. People don't don't know who he is. He's been active for a
long time and hasn't been caught. So even that in itself must have been plaguing Bundy because you know, as many of the victims as Bundy had, it was all relatively done within a few a couple of year period of time, with a gap in between when he was
in custody. But the Green River Killers is unknown. It's like a masked menaced and he's uh, actually his his numbers of victims went above and beyond what Ted Bundy did, so you some people speculate that he was maybe wanted to stop this guy for that reason because you know what's making him uh not look so good in the sense,
this is all he had. Now he's going to be put to death, and he wanted to be notorious perhaps, and he also wanted to get maybe get some time extra time before he was electrocuted by cooperating with the authorities in that area to try to find out who
this Green River Killer is a ka. You know the whole thing with the movie that that came out later on everybody knows, uh, you know, the silence and the lambs where somebody was uh the killer was used to try to find out what this other new killer was was going to be doing, and he wanted to get that that acclaim and get notoriety for helping and also for maybe for stopping this killer who was gonna break Hish his record of murders. So it's fascinating how that
might have played out. It's it's speculative and you know, psychology major stuff can talk about it, but it is fascinating how he wanted to reach out to try to help. He reached out to authorities they didn't reach out to him to try to find out who this killer was, and eventually he was caught. Gary Ridgeway.
But we all know, we all know the story of of Pardon Me, of Silence of the Lambs. But you write about us about the Red Dragon and Thomas Harris attending Ted Bundy's trial. Tell us about the book Red Dragon, And how's you write in the book?
Yeah, well a red Dragon. Yeah, that was a precursor for for a Silence of the Lambs, I'm pretty sure. And what I read the Yeah, Thomas Harris was the author. Yeah, and he had he attended a Bundy trial, just something something he must have been interested in, obviously in crime to crime, And he mailed a copy of his book Read Dragon. It was at nineteen eighty one novel and obviously that's the book that introduced to the character, you know, Hannibal Lecter.
So he just.
Tom Harris has happened to be this this great author of these books, and he was fascinating. He was at a Bundy trial and he mailed a copy of two of a Red Dragon into Ted. So it's just one of those little tidbits of information that you pick up somewhere and like, wow, I didn't know that either, and how come I, well, maybe I did. I just I thought I would remember that. But it's something that that's fascinating.
One of those small little details that make make you know, something like like a book like this interesting because maybe you haven't heard it before and it's just a tidbit, but it's it's it's interesting.
Absolutely. Uh. You you talk about the websites that you were able to access recently that weren't maybe up a few years ago or many years ago. Tell us about some of that those websites. Cite a couple of those for us, and uh, where you got some of the valuable information and where some of these people are located online?
Well, a lot of the information is, uh, do list my sources, and like I said, a lot of you even YouTube videos. You can find interviews on them if you know, you want to find out about Chino and how her and Elizabeth said they were best friends, and you can find some of these interviews that were done that maybe you didn't when they happened, you didn't pay
too much attention. But now with social media exploding, you can actually find these these videos and interviews all in one area, and they they're numerous and they're ob authentic, so you don't have to worry about you know, things that you read sometimes are not accurate. But with interviews,
you get to pull information. You get to pull you know, you know what they're what people are directly saying, and you can even read the you know, the looks on their faces that they're saying this, so you can interpret them in ways that you can't when you just read read about them. So specific sources, I mean, I don't want to list any people, but I do list the sources I used in the research of this book, and
recommending any one over the other. It's there's just just so many and obviously it took a lot of you know, research, but their websites were all out there, and that's why I collect to them and put them all at the end of the book in the bibliography page where I all the sources are cited. So I don't know the more I can say about that right now.
That's good. I want to thank you very much Paul Lenardo for coming on and talking about your book, Ted Bundy The Angel of Decay. For those that might want to look at other work of this work and other work, do you have a website or a Facebook page that they might be able to take a look at, please, Yeah.
I do have a website Paul Leonardo dot com. Also Amazon page. I have auto page that I put a lot of information and interviews that I've done on that as well, So that's that's available for people. Yeah, either one who would tell you a lot about the books and the things that I'm doing and have done.
Absolutely. And you have another book, Murder Without Motive, being released this year as well.
No, that was actually a release so back in two thousand and six, and that's a uh, Murder Without Motive was part of a thrill killer book I made it. It wasn't an electronic book at the time, so the publisher it's gone out of print now, so I wanted to have an electronic book available. So Thrilled Killers was the title of the original book, and I just used
the title. Murder Without Motive was the subtitle of that book, so I'm just using that, and it's the an ebook that's available now for the first time with that Thriller Killers, Murder Without Motive. It's available as an e book.
Absolutely, that sounds fantastic. We'll have to have you back on and talk about that fascinating book, Thrill.
Killers time anytime.
Van. Thank you very much, Paul Lenardo for Ted Bundy The Angel of the k It has been fascinating. You have a great evening. Thank you very much.
Thank you, thank you, Dan, good night by now okay,