TED BUNDY'S MURDEROUS MYSTERIES-Kevin Sullivan

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Ted Bundy and the Bundy Secrets. Ted Bundy's Murderous Mysteries is a deep dive into the archival record of America's most notorious serial killer. It's a veritable gold mine of information on Bundy, his victims, and this very voluminous case. Written by the foremost authority on Ted Bundy, this latest examination of his brutal serial killer contains new, revealing and never before published interviews with those close to Bundy, close to his victims, and a potential victim who barely escaped

his clutches. Ted Bundy's Murderous Mysteries brings to light for the first time many heretofore passed over facts about Bundy and reveals previously hidden aspects of the lives of some of his victims. The book they were featuring this evening is Ted Bundy's Murderous Mysteries The Many Victims of America's most infamous serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist and author Kevin Sullivan. Welcome back to the program, and thank

you very much for this interview. Kevin Sullivan, Hey, Dan, how are you doing.

Bundy books, So can you mention the previous three books? Please?

that was sad to hear that. Yeah, but he and Bob Hayward, the arresting officer of Ted Bundy, died a few months ago and his wife died yesterday. So yeah, But anyway, but I never had any intention of it. But a local friend of mine here in Louisville, Jim Massey, has known Jerry Thompson for years, and so I was invited to meet him and his wife when they came

to Louisville for I guess we had dinner. Yeah, And so anyway, it was very interesting because I knew meeting Jerry was going to be a lot of fun, and I thought maybe I might write an article about my meeting with him, but he brought that that murder kit that Bundy carried uh and Jerry's had had the kit in his possession for years, and he brought that to Louisville, and just I was able to take that to my home, photograph and do all that stuff. It was just very interesting.

And before Jerry left, he gave me, and he gave my friend Jim, one of the glad trash bags that Bundy carried in his murder kit. What Bundy would use these trash bags for would be to put the victim's clothes in them. And because he always left them naked, with only like maybe a beaded necklace if they were wearing that, but all the clothes would go into these bags and they he might dump that bag one hundred miles down the road in some dumpster or a goodwill

or something like that. So having that in my house and be, you know, given that bag, it just was so surreal. I started really diving into the life of Ted Bundy, and I decided I'm gonna I'm gonna go ahead and and write a book about it. So that book was The Bundy Murders, A Comprehensive History. It's coming up on its tenth year anniversary. It was released in August of two thousand and nine, and it's been a good seller. And it was the only book that I

ever thought I would ever write about Bundy. But in twenty fifteen I started learning of some people that were either passing away or having significant problems, and I thought, you know, maybe I always visit the case and do what it's called the companion volume. And I did that, and in twenty sixteen my second book on Bundy, the Companion Volume, was The Trayal of Dead Bundy, digging up the untold stories, and that also conveined, just like the first book, a lot of new information that had never

been published before. And I forgot to mention that about the Bundy murder because there was a number of new things about the murders that came out with my first book, The Bundy Murders, and a lot of new information in general about the case. Well, some really great things happened for The Trail of Ted Bundy. A lot of interviews came in, people were contacting me. They're valid Bundy contacts, and so all that new information went into that book.

In twenty seventeen, I followed it up with another book because people kept coming to me that I didn't know that we're associated with the case in one way or another.

And after I vetted them, then I had a bunch of more people to interview, and so in twenty seventeen I released The Bundye Secrets and the Bundee Secrets Hidden Files on America's Worst serial Killer had to do with not just these interviews, but a republication of many of these interesting case files that I've used for research for years, along with commentary from me. This new book is just about the same, but I never repeat information in any

of my books. It's always new. I've done the same thing here with this new book that Bundy's Murderous Mysteries, and it's another republication of very interesting parts of directors with commentary from me, and another chapter of brand new interviews of people, most of them have never been interviewed before. And I found something interesting that happened for this last book, because I've got such a large case file, probably up to maybe ten thousand pages of the things about Bundy,

all from various aspects of the case. And I didn't realize this, but for this last book, I ran across several pages that were misfiled years ago and put in a stack that I capped but wasn't supposed to be used, and they contained some unbelievably good information about Bundy and it being published for the first time. I would have used it in the Bundy Merse, but I misfiled it, and so it's interesting. So that's that information is in

there now. And the information that's in there about these missing pages has to do with an interview of a guy named Charles Shearer who said that he and Bundy and Buddy was over at his apartment and it was Charles's wife and Bundy and they were all drinking and at some point Bundy kind of blurted out that the police are are looking for him or looking for his car because of the abduction of three girls. And he

came out and said he abducted the three girls. And when Shearer asked him, what did you say, the repeat that he refused to answer. And so that's really that's astounding, and so that that story is in the book. But yeah, it's this is the fourth book, and I can break it to everybody here. I think this is a good place to do it on your show. Every time I

publish a book, I take about a week. I think about a week and I just asking it and I've gotten my commented complimentary copies from the publisher, and I might read it, I'll post about it on social media, and I'll really just kind of enjoy myself. And I'm just taking about a week's break. Well, I had a guy contact to me the day after my book came out, and he asked me something about have you ever considered about writing about Ted Bundy from like this other angle

I'm doing a book? And I said, well, no, but that does sound interesting, and I thought I'm not going to be doing this, so I said, well, I'll I'll lay it aside and if I ever want to do something about it, I'll let you know. But I don't really think I'm interested. But it's a good idea. Well, over the next several days, I got to thinking about it and I called my publisher or I contacted my publisher, and they loved the idea. So I'm already deep into

the fifth book about Bundy. I can't say the approach or the angle now, but it's really going to be good. And here I've written a fifth book, and from a guy I never had any intention of writing any books about that Bundy. It's a little interesting, I guess you could.

and Healey January thirty first, nineteen seventy four. Tell us what you found out from these files, these case files that you used it researched and did this book from, but also the witnesses and what they saw and what is it about these files. It's very intimate, but tell us give us the details of what you find about Linda and Healy.

giving it back out on the printed page. But I remember, as I was researching and writing The Bundy Merse, I kept thinking, these these case files are so fascinating because even though you can't reproduce case files in large numbers in narrative nonfiction, because in a case like that, if you did that, you'd have a lot of facts but no real co easy story, so you can't really replicate them there. But you can have a book of case file material. And other writers have done it, you know,

over the years. There's a book out there now with Jack the Ripper, and you've got all those court testimonies and stuff, and it's fascinating to read, and all these questions and answers and depositions. It's just interesting. So there's a place for that. So I remember, as I was, you know, you know, writing The Bunny Burse, I thought, man, this stuff is so fascinating. I know I'll never be able to do it, but it wouldn't it be great if if I could put together a book of just

case files. And I thought, well, it's just never going to happen, but I'd like to put people to be able to see what the detectives saw, and this stuff was very classified then and it was all for in house use and what they saw on a daily basis as information was added, So I think there's a for that. So when I did The Bundy Secrets and then this last book did Buddies, Murs Mysteries, you know, it's that way,

and I had commentaries. So if you're looking back, like, for example, you read my books on the Linda and healely, you're getting the full story. However, if you look yeah, because in fact I've talked about Healey, not just in The Bundy Murders, where the full story is. But I'll touch upon other books, but I won't repeat the information, but I'll bring out new information about that in my

other books. Well, for those who are reading either The Bundie Secrets or this new book, they're able to see the case files directly from the detectives that they were using in the house, and within that they would take

statements from everybody involved. Or so in the case of Linda and Ealy, you've got her three or four other housemates that came in and were interviewed by the detectives, and very often the statements of people are rather long and so in these two books where I've done this, people can actually see word for word what these people

were asked by the detectives and how they responded. And it's a fascinating look, not just in the police work in general and how they obtained this information, but how the information flows out of the people who are reliving what has happened and trying to give it back in a proper order. So it's fascinating stuff. And like I say, you've got all these testimonies from the women that lived with Linda an Eally and you know what occurred that night.

So it's a very very interesting thing to be able to see these case styles and go over them.

with any one thing. If you're thinking about any one particular thing, I'd be happy to comment on it. But these reports are so voluminous that when you look at how I wrote it in the Bundy murders, you could say, Oh, I wonder if anything else happened here? Did she comment on this? You know how questions pop up in people's mouths if you've got something that you're thinking of in particular. Oh you know, I mean, I'll just go ahead and comment on it.

what's happened to her. They leave, they're gone for the day. They're hoping she'll show up. They're at school. They all come home that night, and that's when the fear really starts to build. So you've got a very strange case that particular night that they came back and Linda was still gone. Linda was supposed to be there preparing dinner for her boyfriend and her mother and father, and I guess I think her brother was supposed to be there

as well, but she's she's nowhere to be found. So the father and brothers show up, and then this and then the father calls the mom, uh missus heally and says, well, don't come over because she's not here, and she says, have you call the police? And you know, he said no, but I think we'll wait a bit. You know, that's that's just the natures sometimes of parents that this dad is so concerned, but he's not wanting to jump the

gun on the police, hoping for the best. And she said no, and she she gets up the phone from him and she calls the cops. Well, here's the thing. The police come over and it's it's a couple of men, you know, they're not detectives, but they're patrol officers. They come in and they do the usual thing, and they're they're getting the name of the missing person, information about the people, relatives, names, all that stuff. And they do look around, but they weren't sure whether foul play was

involved in this or not. When the detective comes later that night, and I can't remember I think it was around midnight, might have been maybe around eleven o'clock. He comes in there and he goes in there, right into the room and he starts to do his work. And what they find in Linda's room is really a strange thing. The girls had already discovered that not only was the bed maid, it was made in almost like a military fashion.

And Linda never made her bed during the week because she had to get up so early to go to the radio station. She was a ski announcer at a local radio station in Seattle, had to be there by like sixth thirty, so she didn't make her bed at all during the week, and when she did, it never looked like that. There was blood on the bed. There was blood on the pillowcase, and the pillow case was removed,

but there was blood there. Now it wasn't blood spatter as if she were beaten, and Bundy would say later that she was choked into unconsciousness even though she was asleep. She woke up, but he choked her into unconsciousness and they breed in a nose bleed, and the blood that they found is consistent with that because it wasn't in a spatter pattern. Well, buddy takes this, this thing off of her ninety, hangs it up in the closet, makes

the bed. I don't know, they're not sure if he were wraps her up in a blanket, but he either lays her on the floor or puts her in a chair. She's unconscious, she's bleeding from the nose. And he makes the bed, and he grabs a backpack and takes him clothes. Now he may be setting up the scene to look like she somewhere. So the police weren't quite sure whether or not this was a volitional leading on her part or something that speaks of foul play. So it was really,

you know, they just weren't sure. But when the police started to determine the real facts behind this, that Linda would not have left and this happened over a number of days, that this would not have that she would not have left the premises her parents were going to come over. She was doing five the night before. There was nothing. This was so out out of character. So this is one of the things I say about this abduction.

It's a very surreal and strange abduction, and it's one that just one of the surreal type of abductions that Bundy would commit, the kind of things that you don't hear from usually, even from abductors. He just did these wild, outlandish types of abduction. So it was kind of a slow process for the cops to come to the conclusion that bal play was involved, and of course it was.

seventeenth Street in the Seattle near the school. They have just blocks from the school, a couple of blocks that's called Greek Row, got fraternity and sority auses. Well, the back alley is the kids are going up and down that all hours of the night and they're just it's just a busy area. On the night that George and disappeared, she was well aware of women disappearing in the area. She was concerned about it. She was studying for a

Spanish test. She broke away from its studies at some part during the early evening and she and a friend walked a couple of blocks to a frat party, just relaxed a little bit of a couple of beers. Friends. As they came back, she wanted to stop in the fraternity house on the corner and go in the back

door to see her boyfriends. But she said, I'm gonna wait here and I'm gonna watch you walk down the alley because she believes in She believed in you know something being called you know, the buddy system, and people need to watch out for each other. So she watched the girl getting ready to go in. They waved at each other and talked, and the girl went in. So she goes in to her apartment, into the frat house and spends I don't know, maybe about fifteen twenty minutes

or so with her boyfriend. And she's coming out the back door. The back door you know, makes that normal slamming noise or whatever, the screen door, whatever, And Dwayne Covey is right above there, his room and his window was open and he was I think he was studying. And Dwayne he pokes his head out the window and he sees Georgia Anne and they know each other.

He's back, oh, I don't know, maybe fifty feet excuse me, and he's watching this and it could even be a little bit further than that, but he can see clearly this is a young woman speaking with somebody up who's booking her out the window, and so coming in, you know, Georgia, and they talk a minute and just kind of shoot the breeze. She said she's going back home to study for her Spanish test, and then uh so, and then they said goodbye like in Spanish, and they were just,

you know, just talking and having a nice time. And so Kobe does a natural thing. He goes back to the his gask or whatever he's doing his room, and George Anne is then walking away the short distance to her thank well, she encounters you know Bundy, and Bundy, you know, he's he was a nice looking guy, dressed well, articulate, and he looked like he was someone in real need, hobbling on these crutches, trying to hold on to a briefcase. So what's the kind older the kind are George Ann's

supposed to do? He he asked for help, and she agreed to it. And I say in the my book, my first book, the Bunny burd said it for some reason, if Dwayne would have come back to the window about you know, like a minute later, he would have seen George Anne cross below the window with this gulls crutches, but he wasn't there, and of course Bundy took her

straight down, and that's on the corner. Right there after they passed under Dwayne's window, and then they took a right, and then they went up to the seventeenth turn, the left, walk down about a block or so, turned left into an unpaved parking lot that was rather dark where his Volkswagen was parked. And then of course he had already placed the crow bar behind the I called it the right rear tire. Some people think, I mean, if you're a stand of the car, it's the driver's side, but no,

I mean I'm viewing it from the inside. It's the passenger side. As you're driving a car, the right is the passenger. Well, he put it a crowbar between the passenger side the right rear tire on the passenger side as George Anne is helping him. And Bundy would use this rouse with other people and try to get women to like take the stuff and like, for instance, he might handle the crutch and she put them in the car while he's doing that. And he did this with

George Ann. He grabbed the crowbar and hit her. I mean he hit this this woman with such bores that she came out of one of her shoes and both her earrings, you know, flew off. But then once she was out into the car, she went, well, you know, George Anne. And of course in the next day he had to come back on a bicycle. And you see if you watch any of the news of the film footage,

there's a lot of film footage in that alley. The very next day, it's a beautiful day, you know, blue skies, and the cops are there and the news crew crews are there interviewing people. And at some point Bundy is riding a bicycle through and noboy's gonna pay attention to him. And he doesn't stop there. He goes down to the block around, you know about like a block block and a half turns into that alley, finds the earrings, finds the shoe of the clock, and off he goes. Well, incredible.

George Ann was a really sweet girl, well liked and it made such an impact her death on the people that know where. And you'll find this a lot of times with the friends and victims, they don't like talking about those things. And my original contact with Dwayne, I had sent him a letter. I had sent him a letter asking if we could talk, and he at first never responded to it, so I sent him a second

communication another weeks after that. I said, listen the way, I said, I'm sure this bothers you, so you know, we don't have to do the interview. I said, I did have just a couple quick questions. If you could possibly answer those for me, I just would appreciate it. And he told me later he said, well, your letter was so nice. I just had the response. We called me and I was sort of I didn't go onto a real detailed kind of interview. My questions were I

just wanted to confirm a couple of things. I told him this because Dwayne had been interviewed by a reporter from the Seattle Times about this, and I found that original article. I have it in my gage file. There's a picture of him and her boyfriend, Georgia's boyfriend, Marvin Gladly, and there's just it was a big article. And I just asked him to if he could confirm that what

he told them and the article was true. And he said it was true, and what happened was and I have heard that, you know, people have different feelings on this. That might have been somebody else lacking, I don't think so. I think it was Bundy, because Bundy kind of alluded to what I'm about to tell you in a conversation with Stephen Michau of the only you know, living witness

and conversations with a killer. But anyway, if they stood there talking, they could hear laughing down the alley, occasional laughing, and they weren't talking long, but they heard it, and she turned and looked down the alley. And I think Blaine did as well, but he had reported that in the newspaper, and so I asked her about that. He said, yes, she did, you know. Oh, he might say we did, but she definitely turned her head. I first they think

that's Bundy. Other people have said it was probably somebody else. I don't think so, because if you put in what happened there and what Bundy told Michau and the third person of what might have happened that night, it just makes right. It makes perfect sense. But doing the nice guy. But you know, to this day he's affected by that. And the friends, the close friends of the victims usually are like family members. They just have a hard time with it even all these years later.

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but most people turn her down. But she liked to walk, like from her place at Sacont Hall to the Memorial Union Commons catfeteria and that closed I think at eleven, so she would go earlier. But she just liked to kind of walk to campus sometimes after it was dark. And she had been invited to go in to spend some time with some people at Sacon Hall, but she

decided she wanted to go walking around. Well she did, and on the way to this camfeteria, she ran into Loraene Fargum, who had been in the library studying, and they talked a while at on the corner just right across a little five street, right from the Memorial Union Commons, and they talked and and even even Laurene said, well, do you want to go? Because Katy was having a problem. You know, she loves her boyfriend, Christy McPhee, but he wanted to kind of go ahead and get married and

she wasn't ready for that. So she was kind of explaining to raining the problems that she was having. And then even she said, well, come back with me and we'll talk. She said, no, I just kind of want to walk around for a while and want to go into the you you know, the cafeteria. So they said goodbye and and and that was it. Well, Bundy would later say that he in the third person. He came up and talked to her in there and condensed her

to go with him. Now, a couple of interesting things occurred when I was writing the Bundy burs There was a letter that Christy had received after she disappeared. It was postmark May seventh, And because this was late on May sixth, I thought, Jeeves, I wonder if she had that letter with her, or if she had married it earlier I had mailed it earlier that day, or could it have been with her that night. I didn't know.

And because Bundy was hunting, I thought, I wonder if he had been hunting at the library and it even seeing Lorraine. I just didn't know. So I kind of speculated on these things. And when after The Bunny Murrich was published a year later, Lorie Fargo got in touch

with me and she confirmed to me two things. One, yes, Kathy had a letter in her aunt, and she when she when I left her, she went right across the street and dropped it in the mailbox before walking up the steps at the Memorial Union Commons to go to the cafeteria. And then Lorraine told me. Lorraine told me, she said, yes, I was at the library, and I did have a man following me there, and he was very strange and and it really bothers you. She started

to get very creeped out. And I think it's quite likely it was Bundy, because he loves Onny libraries. And so she left with a bunch of people, so he couldn't follow her, and that's when she ran into Lorraine, And I said, the Bundy murders. Could he have been following Lorraine and then saw Kathy and made it? So this may very well have been how that unfolded. Well.

In any event, I had when I wrote my second book, said buddy, I had Lorraine talk about that, And what I do was she and I had conversed with over phone calls and email, and so I took a lot of what she wrote me about that that was a

confirmation and I put it in the book. But for this book, I wanted to do something more outside of the mentioning of letters because very often this will help people understand a victim even more and just as a person, just to see them as real people and not just victims. For this book, I put there's a number of letters that were between Kathy and you know, her boyfriend, Christy McFee,

and so I have those in the book. And I felt like it was important because I want to show us much as I can about you know, the victims, and I have to say, and people have said this to me that I broke new ground in the Bunde Murders my first book by making a lot of these victims more real and having more in there about them. And that was my intention, and I was successful, and a lot of people have said, yes, that's exactly what you did. Now I felt as I was reading the book.

But for this book, because it's about mostly about the victims and their testimony and the living victims of the things that changed them because of what happened, I wanted to put these letters in there. They're they're very personal, they're very honest, and they're very and very important understanding that the character of Kathy and I and those who

read the book. They'll also find in there a list of things that her parents had to pick up, you know, like something like eighty books or whatever, and various items she had. And you can see from like especially the books, the things that she was interested in, which which helped paint a better picture of who she was as a person. What were those things that she enjoyed and liked reading about and liked learning about, and what were the things

that fascinated her life. So that's what I wanted to do and and and uh, that's why I have so many personal things about the victims that from these case files and I've added them to this book.

Bundy at that time or any other killer. So it's very fascinating to see all the work they did to look at the possibilities that she was so depressed, or that she was so frustrated, or she would do something to herself or run off, and so it's actually pretty disturbing to see how much they can go off on a detour when they're not seeing any of the facts that we now know to this day.

the fact that she was also using drugs. She had been smoking hashish and things like that, because I didn't want to get her in trouble, and so, you know, there was these little things that came out that where

they weren't quite as truthful as with the investigators. That's why sometimes I ended up being surprised if I'm able to interview those who knew her, and I had a number of people contacted me after the publication of the Bunny Murse who knew Kathy, who would tell me things, and you know, and in every case they were very much affected by what happened, but they would also tell things that maybe the investigators didn't know about the personality

of the person. And that's a fascinating thing to look back, because what you're doing when you go into something like this feeling back the layers of what a person really is. And I'm saying that in a positive sense, because we

are all complex individuals as people. We all have our ups, our downs, our successes, failures where we've got to pull ourselves up by the bootstraps and go again and and and it's so true really of young people and college people because they're just beginning all this, and many people as they stabilize as adults. Things are going really much much better in their lives, but a lot of things are just hard and if they end kind of like it's the unknown for these college kids. And so it's

a fascinating study into the human personality. And that's why I always like to bring out everything I can to make these people again, not just victims, but real people that people like you and I can identify with.

in Florida and his appearance is different. But let's talk about this beach scenario and the witnesses that that clearly see Ted's behavior, and as you mentioned, it's very interesting. I think when he talks to victims he's got this cool mannerism, smooth talker, good looking guy in this case,

very well dressed. But when he approaches the victim, as you write in this, it's been known from the testimony that you have that once these people refuse or give him any kind of resistance, he knows that they are probably not an easy victim.

knew how to pour on the charm. And you can see that as he you know, tried to get these women to go with him, and there was one woman that went with him. She actually was waiting for her husband and her kids to get there, and she went with him to help him in the parking lot to unhitch the boat or something like that. And she gets there and there's no boat, there's no trailer. He said, oh well, I said, my parents' house up in Insaquah. And she said, oh well, I'm waiting for my husband

and not kids to get her or whatever. I can't. He said, I'm sorry, and so they walked back together. He said, oh, I guess I should have told you. Very congenial, you know, just just very nice. And at no time did he display anything that was could give anybody a sign if something is not quite right here. And you know, and then you know, as I say in the book, it's a numbers game. You know, people may tell you no, but somebody is going to say yes.

And so when he comes up to Janison, which she's at, you know, she's sitting there, she's putting on some tandlos and she's brought some paperbacks there. You know. Uh. Janis was a probation and parole officer in Seattle. Her apartment had been robbed and she decided to get out of the city and she would and so she lived in Ittaquaus. She lived in a small apartment in its Aqua. It's about five miles from Lake Samamish, and so she would

come in every day to Seattle. She just wanted to get out of, like the quote, the big city life, I guess. But she had come there all by herself. She's spend the day there and there's a there's really in amense crack out and Bundy he had. This is something people don't know. A lot of people don't. He came to the lake a week earlier, the previous Sunday, and he was either hunting, probably not likely, could have

been more than anything. I think he was doing a dry run for what was going to happen next week, and he wanted to get the feel in the place with crowds there. And when he was there that day, he ran into some friends and stopped with him and had a beer. So we was seen by people he knew, So that must have been on his mind. So when he comes to the lake the next week, you know, he's dressed in white shorts and the shirt with white shirt.

You know, white tennis shoes, white socks, and in fact that if you or the audience had seen a picture that has surfaced about a year or year and a half ago from Maryland, China, a friend of dead. This is where he's getting into his DW That was taken the morning that he was leaving for Utah. And he had just had breakfast with Mary Lynchino, Liz and her daughter,

and he was leaving that day for Utah. What's interesting about the photograph, though, he's dressed in that photograph exactly like he was dressed on the day he was funding at Lake Samamish. But in any event, he comes to the lake, he's spotting people near Janasa. She's on the ground. There's a couple of people around her who would hear the conversations. One was a fifteen year old girl named Sylvia Valence. Her name today is Mexer And I've seen

Mexra's testimony on the documentary. She's on the same one I'm on. She is speaking now about that Ted actually came up to her her and but if you look at her, and I'm not disputing that that's what you say now. But in her testimony to King County detectives, and there are two reports from her, one taken soon after that and one taken in November where there was a follow up by Bob Kepple's people. She doesn't mention any of those conversations with Bundy. Maybe she had for

I don't know. I can't answer for it. I'm just saying she's talking about that now. But in the original testimony, and I have the report in my book, she says Bundy kind of went past her and talked and said and started talking with janas O. Well, Sylvia's fifteen year old kid. She overhears the conversation very well and she remembers it. And I remember I said in the Bundy murders, I said, well, you know this is this is interesting that a kid that young would be paying that much attention.

And that's and that's a very that thing. So behind Sylvia and behind Janice is a DEA agent by the name of Jerry Snyder, and he's got his big dog with him and his wife's there with the kids, but they're a little bit closer down to the water, so Jerry has to stay back with the dog. So he's getting a good view of all this, as did some others. So there were more people that heard this conversation that happened with between you know, uh, Dot and Bundy, and

of course Bundy was pouring on the charm. He introduced himself as Dead, she introduced herself as Jan and and so you know, she gets up and they heard the conversation. She was going to help him with the boat. Uh, he said something of my parents' house Isakuah. He wasn't going to make that mistake again, as he did a little while earlier with that other woman. She said, well, you got to promise me you'll, you know, you'll, you'll introduce me to your parents and take me a Saley.

He said sure, I mean that's easy, he said, I got a buy he said, it'll fit in my trunk. And if they go, and of course she enters this like Mary's world. And as far as Cilia Valan, if she really did, if Bunny did talk to her, I don't know whether she's concerned to put that in a report. I don't think so, I don't know what happened. So if you see her on TV and she's saying that, and then if you read the reports and that's not included,

I don't have any answer for that. But so you've got some additional testimony that is coming forth in a documentary which I think is very interesting. But in any event, you may see a discrepancy. But that may be. But you do have the official report from her in my book, and so is the report from Jerry Snyder, and so is the report from a number of these women. And the main thing is most of these people described ed

to a t just you know that. You know, they would make little errors on maybe the color of his shirt or whatever, but little things and humans do that. But it was clear that Bundy was going to use his real name that day, and as he poured on the charm. And I feel that perhaps the reason why he did that is because of the people that he ran into the week before, and with the lake being even more prouded that daye All fourteenth, nineteen seventy four.

And you know, I mean forty thousand people there if you've ever been there, and it's a packed beach area, and he must have been concerned that if he ran into anybody, and you know, let's say he had introduced himself as Charlie and some bey came up, Hey, say Dad, how you doing? It would immediately raised suspicion that the woman said, hey, I thought you said, your name was Charlie.

So you know what, because he's already abducting women in Washington State, there's just one more day in doing that. And I think he tried to avoid any problems, so he was using this name. But yeah, it's fascinating stuff to go in there and read the testimony of these people, which thank god, you know, the King County Archives has you know how this stuff and Wharton State was very interesting. I mean it interested in preserving this case.

still notes about what Bundy had said. Tell us a little bit about this interview, and especially about what you write about and include about some of the things Bundy said. Supposedly he thought.

be the Florida Merse and what transpired down there. So I met with Don Passion at his home and us came into this home back in August of two thousand and eight, and his wife was so nice and we sat down and she had baked some chocolate chip cookie's us and I remember Don he reached down to the right and he pulled this this big plastic tub up off the floor, placed it on the table, and he began removing files and there were all the you know, copies of his personal notes and everything, and he gave

me complete access to all that stuff, and he showed me the things that he had written down when Bundy had asked him to turn off the tape recorder, and Bundy had become very honest at this moment. You can tell about what Bundy said. And he talked about sometimes

he feels like a vampire. He talked about seeing a girl wants riding on the bike, and I'm not looking at that portion in the book right now, but he talked about, you know, like I knew I had to have her, and he said that something along the lines you don't understand the significance of Lee catching me. That was Officer Lee, that patrolman in Pensicola. H you know, he said, but you don't understand this, you know the significance of that. But see Bundy did because he could

see the handwriting on the wall. Because Bundy was looking back to the similar arrest by Officer Hayward in Utah, and that's why he fought so hard to get away from Lee. But in turning, when Bundy said, if you'll turn your tape recorders off, like I want to talk to you just between us, he didn't realize that these these detectives were going to scribble everything down, uh, and that that would later be entered into evidence as if

it was on the tape recorder. The only difference was it's the testimony of the officers of what Bundy said. And in fact, they had some recording issues anyway with their tapes. And there was a part of those tapes I think would disallowed by Judge Coward later anyway because of some problems and and and and Buddy's uh attorney said, no, there's too much areas where where the detectives could play

with things, and so certain aspects weren't allowed. But this this conversation that Bundy had where he was just talking to them and he said, he made another comment. He said, I'm not going to tell you you know, motus OPERENDI. He said, the downer he said, like the actual killing was was was like a downer. Okay, Bundy was just he was kind of coming clean on a number of things, and he thought he was doing it in a private conversation with these men and that it would go no farther.

Of course, the detectives did what obviously what they do and entered it into evidence and it was ultimately used against him. But he can't read those notes without seeing how honest Bundy was becoming at that moment. Even when he was edging on telling something, he was still opening up. It was very interesting.

just about having sex with women. The same thing happened to him when he was young, but he started mixing those fantasies with strange things like what the Detective magazine showed, the covers of those things, binding women up, dominating women, threatening women, and he really started to get very twisted into thinking like that. And as he got even older than that, he was quite peeping tom and he would go out at night, you know, he'd peer in on women.

He'd stand there and masturbate in the dark. And you know, when you're leading a life like this and you're already dealing with things where you have thoughts of abducting women and doing something, there is going to be a point where you pass and I say this in the book, from fantasy to reality, and you cross that thing. Because the actions he took when he started crossing. He had

lived with those for a long time. I even speak about how when he was admitted being back East back in nineteen sixty nine, how he was on the verge of abducting with an abducting women and even tried to do it with one of them and it failed. And it wasn't because he wasn't aggressive enough. He was bubbling over with aggression. He just was not yet a skilled predator. So Bundy knew he had a lot of work to do in getting the place where he could do this

and be successful at it. And boy, he reached that point, because it took a long time that catch this man.

with him. And you can tell this guy was really a nice guy because he came back later and he apologized to Jerry, and he was transitioning from one at that moment, from one who believed Bundy to a person that was becoming somewhat suspicious and wondered. And I remember he said to Jerry after he apologized for being that way, and that he wanted to talk to them and be

more open. You can almost see the kind of frustrate because I think he called Bundy his best friend and he said, do you really think that that that he did this thing? And I think Jerry said to him, yes I do, I'm absolutely convinced of it. And so here here was, here was a man done changing and being forced to change simply because his own mind was telling him that Bundy could be a lot more than what he had he had pretended to be. But this is not unusual for Bundy, and this is why it's

so In fact, I'm just going to say it. The reason why I think people are so fascinated in Bundy in this case is because the outward Bundy was nothing like the inward Bundy. The outward Bundy was very likable, and that's why when this first started started to come out about Bundy. There was two places Bundy really put down roots, Washington State, where his home was, and in Utah.

And in both places where he had put down roots, he had a lot of people that just couldn't bring themselves to believe that the guy they know could be involved in any of this stuff. And so done was in this same place. Good friends had a lot of lass with Bundy, and you know, almost would do anything for the guy. But yet he was teachable inside and

as the as the thing. As all these things started to transpire, that's why he came back to Jerry and apologize and said, you know, do you really think it's possible that this could be? And you could see the confusion in him. He's all all, but he's also an honest man and he wants to do the right thing, and that's what's important.

chance to do so. So people can find me on Facebook, on Amazon of course, and on and at Wild Blue Press.