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You are now listening to True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Geesy Bundy, Dalhmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good evening, This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True crime History and the authors that have written about them. In Tampa, in nineteen forty eight, known gangster Jimmy Velasco was gunned down by a hitman. In the ensuing weeks, when neither the Tampa Police Department nor Hillsboro made an arrest, Jimmy's brother took the investigation to the governor, who ordered a grand jury investigation. In February nineteen forty nine, the findings
were revealed. Among the discoveries was a payoff list written by Velasco prior to his death, detailing the public officials he paid off to remain immune to a law enforcement The public was captivated by the news, and rumors swirled over who was named The grand jury. Never released the names on the list and it has been locked away ever since. This list detailed to who is who of Tampa Bay's leadership, from judges to city councilmen to the mayor and sheriff. Some of these names are old, had
exposed years later by the Cafabre Commission. Others are new and previously thought as upstanding leaders. The program we're featuring this evening is Tampa Bay Organized Crime with my special guest, journalist and author Paul Guzo. Welcome to the program, and thank you for agreeing to this interview.
Paul good thanks for having me on. I really appreciate it.
Well, thank you very much. Very interesting story. We've done quite a few, or quite a few mob stories, but this is again another little twist. Every city has its dark,
dark history, and Yampa Bay has got its share. Now, let's first off, before we do anything else, I'd like to get your background, and basically, after you give you the background, tell us why you felt compelled and why was important for you to write this article and do all the necessary extensive research that you would have to be able to do this very very interesting and important article. So tell us about your background and then tell us why this was an important story for you.
I've been a journalist in Tampa Bay for about fifteen years and the focus of my writing over that Over that course of time morphed into history writing, but not so much boring history. I don't mean to offend people. Write history of this, but not so much as in oh and in fifteen hundred, this happened, and this happened. I have began specializing in digging up old dirt about Tampa, that old mysteries, things that people have just said, this
will never be solved, so they forgot about it. I specialize in digging those up and kind of using that historical rearview mirror that you've got fifty years now facts to work with. It's to try to figure out what it is that exactly happened. The main magazine that has employed me doing these I'm a freelance writer. But the main magazine i've written for doing stories like this, it's
called Cigar City Magazine Cigar City Magazine dot com. And you know, over the years we've written about everything from the Hillsdalo County Sheriff's office having a secret deal with Fidel Cashhrow to run him guns in Cuba during the revolution in exchange for Santra tropic Conte when Castro One. I've written about the first serial killer in the history of Tampa, who turned out to be the first Africa
American serial killer in the history of the US. How Tampa Bay is linked to the criminalization of marijuana and things like that. I've always specialized in kind of digging up things like that. So last August I published my first book on true crime, which is a collection of stories I've written about over the year's twelve stories about infamous characters and events in the history of Tampa. And one of them that I wrote about was about the
murder of a gentleman named Florentino Martinez. He was kind of a you, kind of low level numbers runner in Tampa, Florida. But he was murdered. It wasn't in broad daylight because it was the evening, but there were dozens of witnesses around to watch this. He was murdered in front of everybody, and when the police showed up, nobody saw a thing and it was it became an unsolved murder, but everybody in town knew that the murder was roy Velasco. So
when I wrote the article. The purpose of the article was kind of really show how corrupt Tampa was, that somebody could murdered out and brought right out in the streets like that, and yet the police, city council and everybody would just kind of get together and say, let's just cover this up. There's no need to solve this crime because the person who murdered him is kind of on our side. So when I wrote about this, you know, I finger Roy Velasco as the guy who did it.
The book comes out. A few months after the book comes out, I get an email from somebody, I'll just say this, an anonymous source with a scanned with two skinned pieces of paper from the nineteen forties, and he said, you probably will know what to do with this. And that turned out to be the infamous payoff list, which I write about in this article, that revolves around the murder of Jimmy Velasco. And that's kind of how I got to this story.
Okay, you've now answered that question why you would feel compelled to do this. You've already answered that. Tell us what the name of your book is.
That the name of the book is called The Dark Side of It's called The Dark Side of Sunshine, and I guess if you're out of town, and it is available on Amazon dot com. And it's like I said, it's twelve stories, not all criminal stories, and not everybody I write about is a criminal. So I like to say, twelve infinite stories revolve rangos surround the city of Tampa, from axe murderers and serial killers to gangsters, the Cuban revolutionaries to the advent of the strip club here in Tampa.
I covered all. So if you ever, if you want to know how much dirty laundry one city can have in so many different areas, pick up this book. It's you know, even if you know from Tampa, if you're true, if you're far at a true crime, you'll enjoy these stories.
Absolutely. It's a very colorful city, to say the least. Now, the thing is too that these you mentioned Cigar City magazine And for those people who don't know, I didn't know, is that a moniker a nickname for Tampa Bay Cigar City.
Yeah, Tampa is called cigar City because at one point in the height of Tampa cigar industry in the thirties and you know, in the twenties, thirties and forties, we were the cigar capital of the world. Hundreds of millions of hand rolled cigars came out of Ebor City and West Tampa, which is the Latin districts in Tampa every year. So Tampa, even though we're no longer the cigar capital of the world, we've forever been known as cigar City. If you've got the big Apple in New York, will
where's cigar City? There you go. Now, So the magazine is not so much a cigar night. We do have cigar stories obviously, we cover the history of cigar industry and we interview a lot of cigar Ficionado is because of Tampa the history of cigar industry. But Cigar City Magazine, it's a history magazine that over the years, like me, has morphed into covering some of the more fascinating and unsolved true crime stories in Tampa.
Yeah.
Great. And the thing is this is on the advent of the article being published, and it's a major article, a very important article, featured article April fifteenth, of just recently.
So yes, I'll tell you, I'm sorry, I lost you for a second. I'm sorry.
Yeah, No, I was just going to say that the article in Cigar City magazine was just published on April fifteenth, right, so it's just the advent of this being public this article.
Yeah, this is yeah one. No, it came out on April first, and yeah, and it's gotten tremendous attention. You know, the city's been buzzing about this. This list that I write about, which we'll get into a little bit, had been locked away, and some of the old timers who are around for have even said to me, We've always
wanted to know who's on that list. Thank you, And some of the people who are new to this stuff and said, oh my god, we've known Tampa was corrupt, and a lot of people have written about Tampa's corruption over the years, but this list really does show that everybody in the city was dirty. There was no such thing as somebody who is not getting a little extra couple of dollars stuff stuff in the back pocket at the time.
Now, oh go ahead, sorry, go ahead.
Oh. I was going to say, you know, I tell you a little bitbout Jimmy Velasco.
Well, that's what I was gonna say. Let's let's go back for our audience, and let's let's get a little bit of background on the main character of this story, really, Jimmy Velasko.
Tell us all about it comes to you is when it comes to his backpack story. I don't know a whole lot about that yet, although his family read this article, and I'm supposed to be meeting up with them, hopefully in May, to get a little more on him. But Jimmy Velasco is actually such a mystery in this town.
There's not a photo of him. My friend Scott Ditchy, who wrote the defining book on the Tampa mafia here called Cigar City Mafia his book, even this guy who spent I think at least a decade investigating in Tampa mafia for his book, cannot find a photo of Jimmy Velasko. That's how mysterious this guy is. But what people seem to know is Jimmy Velasco broke into the numbers industry early on, around you know, the nineteen thirties with a gentleman named Charlie Wall. Charlie Wall is known as the
Dean of the Tampa Underworld. He's a man who organized unorganized who organized what was then unorganized crime in Tampa. He was an Italian. He was a Sicilian. He was what you would consider an Anglo had Irish blood, but Charlie Wall had the distinction of being able to fluently speak Spanish and English. Plus he came from one of the most blue blooded families in this city, one of the founding fathers. But rather than using his wealth to
do good things, he decided to go into crime. So he became, like I said, the first real down of the city of Tampa. Jimmy Velasko broken some numbers industry with Charlie Wall working working at his casinos, you know,
playing the card games, running numbers for him. And one thing that Charlie Wall was great at and what kept him in power was Charlie Wall knew how to fix election, whether it be ballot box stuffing, whether it be paying homeless people to vote we're just paying poor people to vote, or just knowing how to put money behind the right candidate. And he knew by fixing the elections, all of his numbers games to be taken care of, because you don't,
you don't bite the hand to feed you. You. You know, when somebody would be elected in the city council or mayor, they knew you protect Charlie Wall and he'll get you reelected. So Jimmy Velasco learned from the master, He learned from the best how to fix elections. So Charlie Wall retires in the nineteen thirties and Jimmy Velasco kind of takes the reins and he became the man to go to the fixing elections. So when candidates wanted to ensure the victory,
they went to him. And how exactly he went about fixing the elections, you know, obviously, like I said, there was the old things of stuffing ballot boxes and paying people off. Nobody knows exactly what his favorite thing was, but it has been said from some of the old timers that if Jimmy Velasko promised you to you'd win an election. You want an election, So that became his main play. Wasn't even so much to casino games anymore.
It was he made money by by helping candidates win elections, and so gangsters would pay Jimmy Velasco to get their candidates in office. So he became that type of guy. But in the nineteen forties he decided to retire. I think the story goes and I'm social meeting with his daughter and may I'll be able to find out this is true or false. But he was just getting a little worried. It's it's it's a stressful life, I'm guessing, uh, being you know, being in the in the in the underground.
So he decided to retire to California, stopped worrying about somebody trying to snatch power away from him with one bullet, and open up a restaurant there when he left. The main people who were in power were Santa Trafficante, which a lot of people know if you're a fan of mafia history. Santa trauft Conte, of course, helped establish the casinos in Cuba. A lot of people pinpoint him as perhaps being the mafia member behind the assassination of JFK.
So truft Content is a pretty well known guy. At the time, Travacante was not the man. He shared power with another man, uh, with another family called the Italiano family, and together they began pulling their resources with the sheriff and the police chief and other people to kind of solidify their power. Now, as time went on in the Trough Contents and Italianos had a war and the trout Content family won and they became the prevailing family. But at the time it was the topic contest and the
Italian sharing power here in Tampa. So nineteen forties came and there was an election coming up, and it was this election where people are saying, we're cleaning up city Hall. Everybody in city Hall was pee. There were whispers that they were corrupt, and they said, we need to get new candidates in here. It's time to clean his place up, new candidates who are not on their payroll and who are not in you know, buddy buddy with the mafia. Of course that's worried him because if you don't control
city Hall, then they can shut your games down. So they needed to make sure that the guys they wanted to win won the election. So they called their old friend the last go and said, please come back. We need your help. So I think they offered him enough money that he could not say no. So the man who was supposed to be retired from California or a safe came back to Tampa and he fixed the election.
He made sure that their candidates won the election. But what happens is when he fixed the election, these candidates even though traffic conte and Talliano paid for him to fix the election. They kind of saw, well, Trafficante and Taliano, they have the power, but this man can help us stay in power. And he kind of realized, what without Charlie Walleran anymore, this is kind of an open city. A man with my abilities, I could probably control the city.
So he began getting some delusions of grandeur of thinking, I'm going to become the man in the city. I've been working for other people for years, helping people out. Maybe it's my turn to be the boss. So rather than return in California, he stayed in Pampa and he began running his own games, and he began paying people off. And so now he had he had the people on office, they more or less owed him the favors. So traffic Conte and Italiana, who were in charge, they kind of
saw their power slipping away a little bit. They kind of saw this guy of Alaska who they brought in, taking some of the power, and they began getting a little worried that he was going to become the main power figure in the city of Tampa. So he needed to be taken care of. Hence, on the night he was murdered.
Now let me ask him just a couple of questions here, because it's fascinating. Now. From the article or from the way I read it, it almost sounded like, okay, so he's retired, he wants to leave. Now, that's pretty unusual for the mob too. You just you just get to retire, right, That's that's unusual. So that's sort of a gift. And they asked him to come back because he's very valuable. He does what he's supposed to do, and and like you say, everybody realizes, hey, this guy, this guy's valuable.
In fact, it goes to his own head. Now it almost sounds like that he thought, for a moment, again kind of foolish that the people that he knew that were legitimate I guess, you know, the politicians and the police, law enforcement, those kinds of people were actually the people that ran things. But like you say, Trafford, Kanty and Italiana will bring them in and they're pretty offended by this,
and obviously that's why. But for a second, does he actually believe that there are more powerful people than these gangsters that he knows very very well.
I don't think it's that. I think he wasn't dumb to the game. But it's kind of like, here's how Tampa operated. Back then. Everybody was in cahoots. The gangsters worked with the politicians, and as long as they got the politicians elected, the politicians would say, we will turn a blind eye to everything you're doing. One of the things that they turn a blind eye to was now the gangsters giving the police and giving the sheriffs odd
office money. By giving them money. By giving the police and the sheriff's office money, they also turned a blind eye and they said, you're running in a legal game, we don't see it. And then on top of that, they would also any of your competitors that they would shut them down. So say, for instance, if I'm running a game and traffic Conte said to me, give me a portion of your game, and I said no, the next day, the police should come and shut me down.
In the meantime, traffic Conte might come in the next day and open up a casino right where I got shut down and open up. The police should let him go. So now on top of that, now the gangsters would also pay off the attorneys. And by paying off attorneys, both prosecutors, defense, and then judges, you even wielded more power. Now the police come in and they arrest your competitor,
he's going to go to court. The defense the judges, obviously, since he's on your payroll and you're giving him a little extra money, is going to say, of course, this guy is guilty. The prosecutor is going to prosecute him a little extra hard. And if you secretly have defense attorneys in your pocket, now he might hire that defense attorney. Now that defense attorney won't even defend him to the best of his abilities because he's on your payroll as well.
So the gangsters were only as powerful as the money they were bringing in, because they were only as powerful as the people they were to pay off. So the power came through money. These people were going to they were they were going to back whoever they thought could make them the most money. So the Lastica wasn't blind to this. So after he helped everybody get elected, he knew that wasn't enough. So uh, he started paying people
off as well. He started giving money to the judges, they started giving money to the police, and he's you know, he would buy them Christmas presents, liquor and diamond rings for the wives and buy them cars. And he would do this for the judges and the politician and everybody, making his own power play. And he was doing the same thing that trafal Contes and the Italiano family were doing. But he had one thing up on them. He could get these people re elected. They could not do it
without him. So that's where they got worried. He had the money and he had he had the political knowledge. So after he won, after he came in and helped them win the election, in the following election, they said, can you help us again? He said sure, so he helped. He helped the guys they wanted win election, except for one thing. They were backing one candidate for governor, and he said, well, I want governor uh, I want a
different candidate to win, Governor Warren. And he backed Governor Warren instead of their handing candidate, and Governor Warren won. So now not only did he have local power that he was sharing with them, but now he was the only gangster in town that had the ear of the governor, which now gave him even more powerful power over them. So he was definitely on the verge of taking over. When he was murdered. You know this this went all the way to the top. This This wasn't just a
local thing. He was controlling power on every level, all the way up to the States. That's how crooked these things were. Everybody was in bed with the gangsters.
Now, just before we talk about the events that happened shortly after this, we're going to talk about and people probably know this, but and this code used to exist. It doesn't seem to existing anymore. But once upon a time, you did not if you were going to assassinate somebody, And this Velasco must have thought that this must have been at least a remote possibility at some point that
they don't do it in front of your family. So, uh continue, But I wanted to mention that because I think that's important as well.
Yeah, it was. You know, there was this era in Tampa that went from the twenties to the forties was known as the Era of Blood. During that time, there was about two dozen murders out in the street. You know. I don't mean murders as in they snuck into somebody's house. I mean close to two dozen people were gunned down in the streets of Tampa. Of Tampa, specifically in Ebor City, which was their Latin district. So hits were not they were not strange. People were getting used to them. But
you didn't go after people's families. Uh, it was just you just you didn't touch them. They weren't involved, Your beef wasn't with them. You didn't use them as a weapon. It would just consider a little dirty. But the guy that the that was hired to eliminate the Alasko, he
apparently didn't care. Because the Lastico and his family were visiting a friend in any Wore City on that evening and as they're leaving, he's getting into his car and a gentleman ran out of the shadows wearing a trench coat and a big hat to cover up his face. And this gentleman came firing and he wounded Alasco, but Velasko pulled his gun to shoot back, and while he did that, the hitman pulled Alasko's wife in front of
him as a human as a human shield. So at that point, what he do except you accept your fate other that you're going to kill your wife. So Jimmy Lasko is not a nice man. You know. He was a gangster, you know, and the gangsters you know, the more you read about them, they weren't like they're not like they weren't TV or the movies. They're not nice people. But he wasn't so much of a scumback that he
was gonna endanger his wife. So he got murdered. This guy actually used a woman as a human shield, which is about as low as you get. And that's that's really besides just him getting killed. That's one of the
things that really angered Alaska's brothers. It wasn't just that his brother, their brother was assassinated, but they also endangered his of Alaska was Jimmy Velasco's wife and his daughter who was there as well, So it kind of went up, you know, a little above and beyond what was normal protocol. So again, now Jimmy Vlaska, like I said, he he had people that he was paying off, and these people acted like they were his friend. The police chief, the sheriff,
the governor, the prosecutors. He thought these guys were on his side. He got them elected, he was giving them money. They were supposed to defend him, that's what the money was used for. But when the wife went to the police and they and identified what the murderer looked like and she did with the sheriff, nobody was arrested. A week went by, ten days nobody was arrested. So the brothers at that point they realized what was going on.
They realized the Travalcante and ital else Italiana family probably offered the police and the sheriff and everybody else a little more money, saying we're taking care of Alaska. We don't want him in charge. We're staking our claim and if you back us, he's gonna be dead no matter what. So it's best if you back us and turn a blind eye to what we're gonna do. And of course they're gonna do it. He was gonna he was dead. There was nothing they were gonna do to stop it.
So of course you're going to back to winning horse. So when the brothers realized what was going on and that nobody was gonna investigate the brother's murder, they basically said, f you to everybody else. If our brother's going down without anybody paying the price, we're bringing everybody down with us. So they went to the governor and they said to the governor, as you know, we're cooked. You know you went to our brother for help. We're coming to you
for help. Now we are gonna sing, We're gonna tell people everything they want to know about Tampa organized crime, and we're gonna point finger We're gonna point fingers name named, and say, everybody who you think is good and on the right side of law, how they're on the wrong side. And that's when they wrote the statement. They wrote, uh, you know this long samements you can find on Cigar
City Magazine's website with the article. And they write the statement saying, everybody who's in on what they call the syndicate, which is the matchmaking of organized crime, law, law enforcement and politicians, and how they have formed again what they call the syndicate, which is the power structure in Tampa,
which is making everything corrupt. And they then find their brother's old payoff list, which you know, specifically says how much his brother was paying people who he was paying, what kind of gifts he was giving them, and they take that as well, and they expose it to the public and they say, here it is, there's everything you need to know. Here are all your your knights in shining armor. Yet they're they're actually just bad guys like us. And before the list got he released to the public.
It got put before a grand jury, you know, and the grand jury said, this list is BS. This is fake. Somebody wrote this. This wasn't Jimmy Velasco's list. Somebody wrote this after the fact of the murder to get back at people to you know, call trouble for no reason. And so we're not going to allow this list to get released. And they locked it up in a safe to never be seen. So for weeks this was the headline who's on the list, Who's on the list, and
people were crushed. Nobody found out. And then, like I said, a few months ago, I got the list, so you start looking into the name of on the list. First thing I did, obviously, I just you know, you go to archives of newspapers and you're looking up and you see, oh, they said this list is BS. So I thought, maybe I don't have anything. This guy gave me this list that a grand jury said his BS, So what good does this do me? And then I started looking at
the names. The first thing that happened is the went the city council. The list, you know, when originally came out, and city council said we're going to go a full investigation of this list. People need to know everybody on this list. But before we say who's on this list, we're going to we have to investigate to make sure it's true. And then you look at the list. The entire city council is on the list. So the police and the sheriff come in and say, we're going to
investigate the names on this list. We're going to find out any people are crooked. The police chief and the sheriff are on the list. So the state prosecutor says, I'm going to get to the bottom of this too. I'm going to do my own investigation. And then you see the state prosecutors on the list. So the accused were investigating the accusations against them. It was it's just ridiculous. But because the public didn't know who was on the list, they let this fly and they just said, Okay, these
people said it's BS. Is probably the BS, without realizing that all these people were doing was protecting them, but to let you know. And so when I see the list, I think it's easy to find out or to see in retrospect that this list was not BS. Otherwise the city council and the mayor would have said hey, look, we're on this list. These guys made it up. We're not crooked. Instead, they buried as nobody would see. So here's who's on the list to show you how crooked
this city was. The entire city council was taking bribes or was taking payoff from the mafia. The mayor, the police chief, the sheriff, the state prosecutor, the county pross acute, or you've got I think two or three different judges, a handful of attorneys. There was nobody at the top of the power structure in the city of Tampa and at Hillborough County, which is the county that that Tampa is part of, that was not in the back pocket
of the mafia. Everybody was crooked. Everybody was dirty. Nobody was looking out for the best interest in the city. They were only looking out for the best interests of themselves. And that's what that this list exposed. People always knew how corrupt the city was, but I mean the people always knew the city was corrupt, but I don't think people realize how corrupt it was. You could trust no one.
You know what they did have to do the good benefit though of having prohibition drugs and all kinds of stuff that's nicely extortable. Yeah, so there's other there's others.
You know.
The thing is if you if you don't really take the money, there's just somebody's gonna find out whatever whatever you're doing on the side, if anything, then use that to their advantage as well. So one way or another, I think if I think sometimes if the somebody came to and made a request that you either say yes or you understand what's saying no means.
Yeah, And it really wasn't until for what it really wasn't untilmost the late sixties early seventies at this city finally got cleaned up. I mean, that's how long it took. This wasn't something that it ended in the forties or the I mean in the fifties. The Key Fauver Commission, which was the Senate's committee, you know, to invest the organized crime throughout the nation, came in and in their national report they fingered Tampa's one of the most corrupt cities.
They could not believe, you know how everybody was in bed with everybody here, and they released this report and things still didn't clean up even after that. I mean, it really wasn't until the late sixties early seventies where the city really finally said goodbye to numbers, running goodbye to it all, and they finally started electing officials based on credentials. They're not based on who could do who a favor the family. Though, I mean to get back
to the lift. The Velastko did not even truly understand how deep this went because they were thinking, we're going to release this list. Everybody's going to go down. So they gave it to one of the friends who was on city council and said, you release it, and if you release it, even though your name is on the list,
you'll probably get impunity for giving yourself up. And so he but he got he got played himself because they didn't realize that everybody from that They thought they knew the police chief, they knew city, then they knew the sheriff or against them, but they didn't realize that the entire city council would turn on them. They didn't realize that the state prosecutor, who they considered a good friend,
would turn on them. And when they finally even told the governor, the state prosecutor, we believe it against us as well. When they finally did arrest somebody and charge them with the murder of their brother. The governor then named the prosecutor, who the brother said is against us, to prosecute the brothers the murderer, so obviously he wasn't gonna do his best job. So at that point they realized,
even the governor is against us. And again it came down to the Italiana and traffic contes probably said we're in charge now. If Alaska's dead, you either join with us or you left on the outside. So at that point, you know, I don't have proof of this conversation. I'm just you know, guesstimating him, but I would guess the governor of course, would say, you know, of course I'm gonna come with you. Otherwise I'm left out in the cold, and you know I need your help. So everybody turned
her back on the Velasko family. A few years later, they did try to get their own sort of revenge.
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It's complicated murder plot to basically kill everybody I've just named except the governor, but with a murder plot to take care of the police chief, the sheriff, of the mayor, just a host of the county prosecutor or the state prosecutor, to just eliminate everybody who screwed them. And they ended up getting caught. But of course the things go, they got they got to quit it on theirs as well. That's just how things go.
Yeah. Interesting, fascinating actually, And so now how a Cigar City magazine were they worried at all about the implications of even though it's we're talking about nineteen forty eight, now we're talking about twenty thirteen, was there any what was there of safeguard that they could publish something like this with the impunital.
What I mean in terms of people pressing charges against you. That would be the only real concern. But I don't make anything up. Everything that I write is factual, based on fact. I never just go out there and make blind assumptions. I think when you read the article, you'll see everything that I state I believe is true. I can I can pretty much argue that I'm right in terms of just you know, people seeking their own sort of revenge on us. We weren't really worried about that.
You know, this took place so long ago. Most of the the ancestors of even the crooked it's not like the ancestors of these people are gangsters. They're all respectable members of the community. Now you know, their fathers and grandfathers might have been on the wrong side of the law, but they're all respectable people. I think the biggest worry
was hurting feelings. I guess, you know, it's always it's always tough writing something about the somebody's grandfather, you know, call them out, like, hey, guess what, I know you love your grandfather. But he was dirty. He was having people murdered, and you know, he was allowing illegal numbers running to go on, and he was allowing murder to take place, So you hate to write that. But at the same time, if you break the wall, sooner or later,
somebody's going to call you on it. There's really no such thing as getting away with a crime anymore, because even if you committed to crime two centuries ago, somebody can dig up evidence to finally prove that you're guilty. And so we just come up with, you know, the thoughts. It's not our fault that these people were corrupt. We're just writing about it. You know, you always need to
expose the truth. The like I said, if Alaska family did call the magazine and I know the publisher, Lisa, I got a little worried, like not that they're going to come after, but they're gonna yell at her, she figured. But it said they'd love the article, and they said next time they're in Tampa and they're hoping May, if not then this summer, but they're hoping may. They want to meet with us and give us a little more info.
They said, we got most of the story correct. They said, there are a few small things that we you know, we might have gotten wrong and they might have some info to you know, give us a little more detail. So there will be a follow up article, hopefully after we meet with the family.
I guess you were relieved after that.
Uh, yeah, yeah, I've read about some people before. I've been bothered before, because like I said, I do at least one of these articles every couple months because they take a few months of research. And I've been bothered by some people before. Show was a little concerned, but usually just drunken phone calls late at night by somebody who just, oh, you know, feels like bothering you. So but I was a little worried when she said they
got the call. But I'm glad they liked the article, and I'm glad they said I got most of it right.
Yeah, No, that's that's really a lot of validation actually that. Yeah, you know, some of the things that you've put together, like two and two does add up to forbe, but you have to make some I guess inferences, right, based on all the information that you have. So it's good that you put all that together. And they were in agreement with that essentially. And I think if they were had any problems you'd heard of, you would have heard
about it. So that's interesting and it's interesting what you might find out in terms of additional information from those guys.
I'm hoping. Yeah, I'm not sure if they said that one of the brothers is still alive and they might be here, or one of the brother's son. I know, the daughter is still alive. Who is there on the night of the murder? So yeah, who knows that they're gonna tell us? You know, who knows what else? You know, It's what I It's what I do for a living. I dig up old secrets and you expose them. So
anything else they can tell me will be exciting. And the article got such great play around here, and there's so much buzz that, uh, you know, I'm hoping that the follow up gives a little more info and gets people even more excited, you know. So we'll see, though, who knows, maybe you know, maybe maybe they're gonn tell me everything off the record, which is always the worst type of interview.
Yah.
Yeah, it's interesting. Not every city really celebrates its history, even though it's especially if it's a criminal history, whereas some cities really you now have good friend Ron Francell has books that basically tour guides, crime tour guides, you know, even with GTS coordinates to be able to tell people here are some historic crime locations. Basically now in terms of this article that came out in this list that makes you know again you talk about Tampa, baby and dirty.
How has the city reacted to this new information?
You know, this city is pretty good about when they're learning about it, about their all corrupt ways. I don't think anybody anymore gets upset about it. I think there was a time where people when I was in the first person who start writing about Tampa's corupt times, probably about fifteen twenty years ago, kind of he started. People start digging up some of these old skeletons, and a lot of people the time, you know, they say, you don't talk about those things.
What do you do?
You don't talk about those things? We don't want people to know what we used to be, like they're trying to hide their theiry laundry. But as time's going on, it's kind of become a calling card of the city. I think people are kind of proud. It's it's something interesting. When tourists come to town, they can, like you said, you know, they can go around and look at some of these old crime points. I think, you know, shows like there's a product of the stuff kind of made
stories like this kind of cool and effect. The center trough of Conte was, you know, like the main calling card of the city in terms of mafia. And he's so known nationally, so people don't get offended by it this anymore. They actually, you know, get kind of excited about when you when they get when the new stories
to come out. I mean a perfect example would be when a few years ago I got proofed that the Hillsboro County Sheriff's Office, which again Tampa is located in Hillsborough County, Florida, had a secret deal with Fidel Castro for gun running. And I heard this on tape. I've
got him on film. Actually, the old head of the Hillsborough County Vice Squad, which was the division with the Sheriff's office that was charged with bringing out organized crime, and the old head of it, while he was on his deathbed literally, I mean, you know, he had an oxygen tank call on him so he could breathe on an interview, said well, we made a deal with Fidel Castro Edel Castro is before he came to power, before
he defeated Batista and became president of the country. He actually came to Tampa to raise money for his revolution, and he could raise a few thousand dollars here, and he formed a fundraising group here that was charged with continuing to raise money while when he went off to Cuba to start the revolution, collecting medical supplies and clothing and even doing a little gun running. And so they
would sending guns to Cuba. So apparently Ellis Clifton, the head of the vice squad, made this deal with Castawa. He was here, He's like, look, I need sent to traffic Conte. Traffa Conte at the time, was heading up the casino industry in Cuba. It was him and Meyer Lanski where the two main guys. And as long as Traffa Conte was in Cuba, the Hilldo County Sheriff's office could not pin any crimes on him. They knew he was head of the criminal syndicate here, they knew he
was one funding all the operations. But as Ellis Clifton told me, there were too many people and there was too much water in between me and him two to ever charge him. So I needed to get him out of Cuba into Tampa where we could tell him we could arrest him. So he made this deal with the Fidel Castro. We'll help you get guns. And when you win and you finally expelled traffic Conte from Cuba, you know you you give me a call and you let me be the one who greets him at the port
so I can arrest him right then and there. And that's what happened. Castro won, obviously, and he kept traffic Conti in prison for a few months. So traffic Conte paid him a you know, I think a few hundred thousand dollars to get released. And then they call Ellis Clifton and they said he'll be it so and so important.
Miami can go get him. And he went there with an arrest warrant for a murder that they thought they were gonna pin on him with the murder of Anastasia in New York City, you know, that famous mafia murder. And then unfortunately the uh, his Traffa Conte's attorney, Frank Gurgano, was there and he said, actually, your warrant has been canceled.
You cannot arrest him. But because Cashro did expel Traffa Conte as promised, Alice Clifton was able to tell him and stay on him at all times until finally to conte you know, as Alice Glipton said, just gave up and said I can't conduct really any any crime here anymore, and kind of moved his operations away from Tampa. But so when we wrote that, you know, we were expecting a big uproar from the Sheriff's office. We're accusing them of a secret deal with an enemy of the United States.
And when I called them for a quote, they said, oh, that sounds kind of cool. So again, it was the fifties, it was a long time ago, and you know, even people who really know Cuban history would even know that he wasn't making a deal with the communist dictator at the time, you know, Fidel Cashers before anybody knew he was communists and Batista who was looking overthrow with as bloody of dictator as they came. So even something with that was that scandalous. People you know, seem to get
excited about. So that's why I write about past crimes, because there's no danger. I'm not going to write about current criminals. They can come after you. These guys from the Fifth from the thirty forties and fifties. They can't come after me.
There seems to be a lot of reminiscing by gangsters mobsters about the past as well too, because I've had a few programs where I asked that kind of same question. Basically, you're not really concerned. You know, things change over time. So it's not.
One of my friends again, Scott Ditchy, who's an author, you know, I would like to promote his stuff as well. He wrote to gar City Mafia, and he wrote The Silent Don which is kind of like the big book on Trava Conte. He you know, he writes a lot about gangsters from all over the country, and so he's always interviewing them, and like he says, look, they're retired out of the game. At one point they were they were movie stars in their town. They were celebrities. You know,
the world revolved around them. And now that's passed, and so of course they want to recapture some of that glory. I guess. And you know, but most of my research I've always done come to law enforcement records and things like that. I I've talked to a few retired gangsters, but I I my main choice for years with the gentleman Alis Clifton, because I was before he passed away. You know, he really sat down and let me and uh my brother who was filming it, really dig and
get a lot of info from him. And I was able to use a lot of the things he told me to build on a lot of the stories that I've written over the years. So I haven't really interviewed a lot of retired gangsters, but you know, if you do get hold and they are willing to talk, give it all times.
You know, well, I think a few of them are just tiring, you know, getting writers and writing their stories. So basically, you know, get it out there and uh there's you know. So I've had that a couple of times where guys are just, uh, there's pretty to some information and here it is, and so there's lots of tales. So this is very fascinating. Now when I want to ask you, hopefully this is h the gambling game that you had, You just threw the name in and I have to look it up to see what it was.
But you can tell us about this game. This is it called balto Believe?
Actually, But yeah, that's you know, my article because it was mostly for a Tampa audience. Here in Tampa people know bleed is. So it's not the type of thing I really need to describe too much in my article. But uh, Ballita was Belieit is what the lottery is based on. If it wasn't for the game of Blita, you would not have a modern day lottery. And what Bleita was is they took a hundred ball wooden ball.
This is how original started. They would take a hundred wooden balls, put them in a sack, and people would gamble on a combination of ball. If you could bet on anywhere from one to three balls, like if you're betting on a horse race, you can bet the trifecta. You know, you bet the trifecta box everything like that.
So you bet it with the balls and they would take the sack of balls and they would throw it across the room and one guy would catch it and he would he would try to catch it by just a handful of balls, and then he would slowly, slowly just grip three balls through the sack. So he would come with a pair of scissors and they would snip it and whatever three balls he was holding in his hand were the winning numbers and you know, payoff for anywhere from eighty five to we're at the best eighty
five to one. So if you hit the checkpot, you'd win a lot of money, you know when you know, you'd bet anywhere from a few cents to a few dollars. But we're talking early nineteen hundreds, really blue collar immigrants, you know, rold cigars all day. So for them to win a couple hundred bucks or something like that, you know, that was huge. And this is the game that overtook Tampa. It became the biggest pursuit in the city. It's all people wanted to do. This was their most popular pastime
was this game. And at first it started off people would just play it, you know, for fun. Not for fun. They would bet on it, but it would just be a couple of guys would hold a game and people would bet on it. And then I mentioned earlier with Charlie Wall. He came in and saw if I organized this game and started taking control of the games, there's a lot of money to be made in this. And so he organized it and started really the first numbers
running d and people literally would run numbers. They would you'd have one guy and he would walk you know, well, they had multiple guys. I'm just thinking, like one guy would walk into the barber shop and he'd say, hey, I'm selling numbers for Charlie Wall's game down on seventh
and fifteenth tonight. Who once in and people would say, okay, I'll take three, forty five and sixty seven and in that in that order I went in box and they'd write that down, and you know, then he'd keep a list of everybody and he'd take their money collected, bring it, bring it to the game that night, and then they'd pull the numbers and whoever you know bet the waiting numbers would win. And then over the years it evolved
or they didn't even use the balls anymore. When law enforcement started to really catch on, they couldn't really have like these big games in in a league of casino anywhere when law enforces started cracking down, So they would start doing things like whatever, three horses went running the races today, one, two, and three, those are the numbers, or they would you know, they would do stocks like they would they would pick three random spots in the
stock market and they say those the winning numbers today, or you know, whatever the score of the baseball game is in the third inning, you know, We'll be the first two numbers, and then the number of the batter who is opening up the next inning, that'll be the
third number. And they would come up with these clever ways to do it till finally Cuba started a national lottery, and they at that point they would just whatever numbers were announced on the radio, because Tampa could pick up Cuba's airway this time, whatever the Cuban national lottery numbers were at the time would become Tampa's belet in numbers. And that was the game, you know, Like I said that spurger organized crime, that was where the money was at.
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People were making millions of dollars a year by controlling these games. I think in nineteen twenty five they said twenty seven million dollars was bet on the game in the city of Tampa. To really show you, you know how big this was. I mean, you're talking as those as the modern day lottery, but.
You were talking about there's all kinds of ways you're talking even as it evolved into horse racing, if there was ways of the mobsters having the advantage or making the advantage, making it advantageous for themselves. But Belita was even better because you talked about weighted balls and all kinds of already in the rhymative.
Stage in the early days to fix the games. You know, let's say the numbers runners wow, and they came back and they said, boy, we had about fifty people bet on the number fifteen tonight, and so of course, you know, I control the game to the ones number fifteen drawing. He wants to win money, he doesn't want to lose. So they would do things to make sure they could pull the right numbers by putting maybe heavier balls in
the bag. So when the person grabbed them, he could feel around and find the heaviest bag one, or they put empty ones in. Sometimes they would do it where they would freeze three different balls so that when the guy grabbed the bag, he could feel the cold balls. You know. So they're always of always of fixing the games to make sure that the right numbers that they needed got pulled. It was, you know, it's funny when you read these stories about some of the clever ways these guys came up with it.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a hand over fist money because everybody was an accepted thing. So the people were all doing it. It was an accepted part of society, and then had all kinds of ingenious ways of making even more money out of the deal.
So I had one of my friends who owned a little store in Aybor City playing to me. Is said this, and this is another reason why these gangsters became so powerful. Is these people owed these gangsters who ran these games more than anybody else because some people did win the game. So let's say, you know, you know old missus Rodriguez around the corner. She's been here for two generations. Her family has never been able to own a home because
they're just blue collar immigrants. They can't afford anything nice. And then one night she decides to bet you know, two dollars on the game, and she hits it, and suddenly the next day she's got enough money to put a down payment on the house. So even though with a game of chance and it was luck that she won, whether the game was rigged or not, it wasn't rigged
in her favor, but she wins. She now whoever ran that game, she's looking at them as the greatest person in the world because of their game, she got to buy a house. So this goes back to the Alasko story when I mentioned how roy Velasko murdered at the very beginning of when we start talking on roy Velasko
murdered this guy, Florentino Martinez. So if there are witnesses out there and roy Velasco had a gambling house and some people depended on his gambling house to win money and you know, the help pay their bills, who are they going to give in? Are they going to give in the guy who's helped them buy a house, or are they gonna look at the guy who got murdered and say, this guy's never done the thing for me.
So let's just turn turn our ahead. And this is one of the reasons crime was able to flourish here is because these people, you know, this was their chance, this was their chance out of the poorhouse. This is their chance out of the lower class. And you don't want you don't want to kill that chance because once gambling disappears, your dreams are shot. You're just gonna have to be keep working and stay in your spot forever.
But as long as there are these games a chance, you always have a hope of one day fulfilling some of your dreams. And so they protected these guys withever, and then they.
Had not much different than the government controls casinos these days. You're right, the same thing.
Well, that's why they end up coming with the lottery, because I don't think we just tamp that did these types of games. I guess finally the government said, look, if people are gonna be gambling, we might all make the money off of it. But I mean, another great example again would be the roy Velasko when he murdered the guy of Florentino Martinez. The reason nobody said the thing is because he murdered him in the most popular
casino in ebore City at the time, El Dorado. It had the best games, the best liquor, of the best women, and the police knew the place, you know what they were doing there, but you didn't go inside. The police, you know, they didn't go inside. As long as they didn't walk inside and see what was going on, they wouldn't have to bust the place because, David, we've never been in there. We hear illegal things going, but we've had no reason to go in there and check it out.
But if somebody's murdered inside the club, the police have to. You have to go in and investigat a murder. There's no way around that. So this guy, Florenceino Martinez is murdered inside the club. They drag him out to the curb and when the police show up, everybody says, oh, we didn't even They said, was he inside El Dorado. No, we didn't see him in there. We don't see We didn't see a thing. He would just laying on this curb dying already. Because if they say he was ens
at Eldorado, police have to go in. They have to shut the place down, and everybody in Tampa's going to lose their favorite casino, so they covered up a murder because they wanted to keep going there and gambling and drinking, you know. After That's how the town operated.
Sure, you know. And the thing is too that for the other people in America, they know of notorious cities like Chicago where you know, judges were paid off and lawyers were paid off, and any kind of mobster was getting powerful mobsters were getting decisions that seemed really actually ridiculous. But basically because everybody was paid off, they got acquittals on you know, major and important charges. But we're not
talking about Tapa Bay. It seemed to go much later because we're talking about nineteen forty eight when this happened, and things didn't even they didn't have a whiff of impropriety till nineteen sixty when the Kaffer Commission came to Tampa. So so it seemed to be a little bit later, if I'm not if I'm not incorrect.
You know, Tampa in terms of organized crime crime and their role in it nationally never really did get the respect to deserve. But I think because people did try to keep it hush hush for so long. Remember all organized crime figures at the time in the forties and fifties and into the sixties were funneling their money into into the Cuban casinos because that was their way of avoiding the government. They would take their money and they would invest in in things going on in Cuba, so
that it was where they were laundering their money. Tampa, not Miami. It is Tampa. Is the is closer to Cuba than anywhere else in the United States because of the sail wins. So Travacante, because of his role in Tampa and because of his role in Cuba, was one of the most powerful organized crime figures in the country. So if you wanted to do anything in Cuba, you
needed to have some sort of friendship in Tampa. So Tampa was playing at the time the biggest role organized time crime in the United States, Bigger than Chicago, bigger than New York. Everything had to go through Tampa in order to make it to Cuba.
And then it.
Became especially yeah, and it became especially important when you know, in the sixties when cocaine the seventies, Yeah, cocaine became real prominent. It became even more important as a you know, mob controlled city for sure.
And what you know, I I've talked to old law enforcement officers and they say, probably a really unpopular school thought for Cubans here in the US to hear. But uh, they say, the most important thing, that the best thing ever happened law enforcement in the US was Fidel Castro, because they said he expelled all the gangsters and all the casinos, and without anywhere to launder their money anymore, and without a safe haven to run their crime syndicates,
they had to do it from the US. And they say, from that point on, those individuals really started losing their power and it was kind of the death of you know, the heyday organized crime. I say, you know, Cuban Americans
would never want to hear it. And you know, again, these law enforcement people are not saying that Casho was a good person, but they said, if Casho had never expelled organized crime, I mean, my God said that the could that those particular families and those enterprises could have grown completely larger than we could ever imagine because they had a safe haven and they had a place to put their money, and without it, they lost a lot
of their power. So they said, thank Fordel Castro for bringing it all to an end.
Yeah, that's very interesting, very interesting. I guess they would wish something like that might happen in Mexico right now, Yeah, because that's yeah, so much bigger threat, I think.
Well now, yeah, now a bit in The main issue we have in Tampa talked of crime is human trafficking. That's uh. I think where Florida's the third biggest hub in the country for human trafficking and Tampa Bay is a leader in that. So yeah, I guess we haven't really cleaned up the city too much as it's falls in a different area now.
Yeah, yeah, it gets worse.
Yeah.
Yeah. And the name of your book that you did above the Tampa Bay Dark City.
So dark Side of Sunshine called the Dark Side of Sunshine. And you know, I know your show. There's a lot of true crime on uh and you know, some stuff with some serial killers. So if you are in a serial killer history, the first African American serial killer in the history of the US is from Tampa and I have history in it. And then there was an action murderer story to an action murder of story in it in which the story of him murdering his family of five with an Act ended up leading to the first
criminalization of marijuana laws in the United States. So you can people who are mad that they got a hide smoking joints, you can blame an action murder from Tampa and my story I wrote in that for the book, and then I'm making High Times a few months ago as well. They kind of wrote about the chapter in that book too, So if you're into that stuff, my
book has that for you. Organized crime. I do tell the complete history of Charlie Wall who I've mentioned, and then I go into the Cuban revolutionaries and you know, the sheriff's deal with Castro, and then I move into the strip club industry. As you know Tampa, you might not know Tampa at one point with the strip club capital of the world. We went from from being the cigar capital the world to the strip club capital of the world in nineties. So I tell their stories as well.
A lot of presties going on in Tampa, that's right.
You know.
I don't just write about crime. I write about nice things too. But you know, whenever you write good stories, nobody seems to care. You write about a murder, and man, the Internet hits on those websites really pile up. It's fun to read, you know.
Yeah, absolutely yeah. And then like you say, you've been featured in you're a freelance journalist, but you are featured in the Cigar City magazine quite a bit, and they've been very supportive in sort of your investigation into organized crime in Tampa.
Yeah, Cigar Citymagazine dot com. I do a lot of writing for them, and then the Gentleman I mentioned a few times, Scott Ditchy have a lot of writing for them. If you're in the true crime I want to learn more about Cuba and then tamp organized crime, go to Cigar City Magazine dot com. We have there's a lot of other stuff on there, but you'll find a lot of stuff, a lot of articles written by myself and Scott Ditchy. And you know, if we don't write small articles,
these aren't one thousand word articles. These are in depth, long articles like almost like chapters and books that you can to this website and spend hours on it.
And you have scans of the articles themselves as well for people that are really into that as well the authenticity of the of the time as well, and read the headlines and see everything there and so it's great and some great photos.
Yeah, Lisa does a great job laying out the magazine and then with the website as well. You know, she scans all the old newspaper articles and so you can kind of see what the headlines of the times were when we're kind of looking back on these times in history.
Yeah, it's very interesting. It's kind of kind of similar to a magazine that I'm involved with is a crime magazine and very very interesting and there forever as well too not you know, it's great now that like programs like this or our interview will be archived and probably available indefinitely, and especially when people can download it, and so it's much better than terrestrial radio I think for you know.
Who was that?
Can I remember? You know, you're able to listen to it over and over again and then look either.
One of the first things I ask any publication asked me to write for them, I like to see myself in print and hold it. But I just I also want to know what their website traffic is, because you know, Internet, like you said it, there forever and an article on a magazine just people on Tampa can read. But we put these things online and suddenly people from all over the country are reading it. I mean, I've gotten comments from people in England on some of my articles before.
So the Internet that's the way to go.
Yeah, I think it's there's a there's a you know, a world audience that's interested in America because America always looks inward. America often even romanticizes criminals over fifty or sixty years after the fact, you know, or at least at least what Hollywood does with these characters, you know. So it's America has this fascinating reputation and the world
is drawn to stories in America. Not that you know, America created serial killers or America created gangsters, but America created the ability to look at themselves and not shy
away from it, you know. And that's what I think people throughout the world look at and again, fascinating information like the little nugget that you just talked about, where uh you said that the DAA or you know, officials in America said, thank god that Castro booted out the mobsters, so that America, with its you know, overachieving law enforcement could get their hands on them and basically squeezed the life.
Out of them.
Because like you say, if they would have been able to remain in Cuba and just flourish, the amount of power that comes with all that money really does affect everything.
So yeah, people people like to call Cuba a terrorist state now, but uh, if the if the if the casinos were still there being run by organized crime, uh, Cuba would have been I mean it actually would have been a danger. I know there's might. Yeah, people AnGR Cuba is not a terrorist date and people like to
say and they're not a threat to us. But if organized crime has stayed there and they were, I mean, it would have been a rich country run by criminals with within an our plane flight, So then it really would have been dangerous.
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely Well, Uh, Paul, I want to thank you very much for this interview and for the great article and the great read, and I want to thank you very much. Do you have a website or can people contact you via Facebook? Is there are other ways of.
Them on Facebook if you've got to look, look for the Dark Side of Sunshine Tampa is my book's Facebook page, or you know, you can contact me through Cigar City Magazine dot com as well. If you go on there, you can find my email address and contact info and again my book, you know, if you had a town's available on Amazon Dark Side of Sunshine, but go to Cigar Citymagazine dot com. You can read a lot interesting stuff and you know, again all my contact information is on there.
Well.
Great.
I want to thank you very much and please get in touch with me on any kind of newood developments on this story and whatever else you're going to be working on in the near future. It was great having you on. Thank you very much.
Hey, thank you so much for having me on. You have a great night, you too. Good night.
With the Lucky landslopts. You can get lucky just about anywhere.
This is your captain speaking. We've got clear runway and the weather's fine, but we're just going to circle up here a while and get lucky. Oh no, nothing like that. It's just these cash prizes add up quick, so I suggest you sit back, keep your trade table up right, and start getting lucky.
Pay for free at Lucky Landslips dot com. Are you feeling lucky? No purchase necessary void. We're prohibited by Law eighteen plus. Terms and conditions apply. See website for details.