SURVIVED BY ONE-Robert E Hanlon

US history. Odell was sentenced to death, and, after seventeen years on death row, expected a lethal injection to end his life. However, Illinois Governor George Ryan's moratorium on the death penalty in two thousand and later commutation of all death sentences in two thousand and three, changed odal sentence to life. Prior to the commutation, Odele lived in denial, repressing any feelings about his family and his horrible crime. Following the commutation and the removal of the weight of

eventual execution, he was confronted with an unfamiliar reality. A future. As a result, he realized that he needed to understand why he murdered his family. He reached out to doctor Robert Hanlon, a neuropsychologist who had examined him in the past. Doctor Hanlon engaged Odel in the therapeutic process, which became

the basis of their collaboration on this book. Hanlan tells the gripping story of Odell's life, the life experiences that formed his personality, and his tragic homicidal escalation to mass murder. The book that we're featuring this evening is Survived by One with my special guest, professor and author, doctor Robert Hanlin. Welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing this interview, doctor Robert Hanlin.

his final execution date. And I was retained by his attorneys at that time to conduct a neuropsychological evaluation of him and as a last stitch effort to determine if there was really anything that was mitigating, you know, any psychological neuropsychological factors that would be mitigating that his attorneys could you try to use in their appeals. And it turned out I really didn't ide them with anything that was uh, you know, significant or uh meaningful with regard

to uh, you know, to that uh that strategy. He was actually highly intelligent and really showed no evidence of any kind of cognitive impairments. And what he did demonstrate from the personality testing that I did with him at that time was that, you know, he showed he continued to show uh some anti social personality traits and features. And so as a result of that, really my my findings were were not of much use to his defense

attorneys at that time. As it turned out, then the the Governor of Illinois, due to the fact that there had been a kind of a very distressing and con concernful series of exonerations of death row inmates in Illinois over a period of about ten years, he self compelled at that time to establish a moratorium on execution, so that basically saved tom Odele's life. And then over the next three years I had no contact with him. I had,

you know, I'd basically done my job. I'd conducted my evaluation, and then the governor, in a blanket commutation, commuted all of the death sentences of one and sixty seven death inmates in Illinois at that time, and he was one

of them. And it was shortly thereafter then that he, out of the blue to me anyway, I received a letter from him asking me to provide him with some information if I would be willing to do that, regarding anti social personality disorder and some quote since he had regarding uh, why he had committed this crime and what I thought might be some of the factors that led to this, you know him, why he became who he who he was, and uh I learned subsequently that that

he had kind of arrived at that this kind of psychological state because of the commutation of his his death sentence and then suddenly being faced with the fact that you know, he's going to you know, he was going to live, and he was going to potentially live a long life in in brisaon which he had never anticipated

or or confronted before. And so I found that to be a rather kind of interesting development, uh for individual like him who had lived for many years on death row and and kind of uh basically lived in a state of denial and repression because.

in in in exploring and trying to understand you know, his his development and his particularly the aspect of his personality. It'll let him to commit this, uh, you know, incredibly horrific crime.

I had evaluated a couple of other mass murderers at that time, but they were not. You know, they're not family, as you probably know and if you're listeners probably know, they're you know, two fundamental types of mass murder, you know, at least in terms of the classifications had come from

the UH the FBI type of classification system. There are there are family mass murders, and then there are what are what are called, for lack of a better term, classic UH mass murders, which which are the kind of mass murders that we all too frequently hear about on the you know, through the media, and mass murders that occur in in schools and shopping centers and UH workplaces and theaters and UH places like that, where an individual just to some degree randomly murders multiple people that he

has no basically had no relationship too. So you know, I had had some experience with individuals of that type. But but these are, you know, these are very very different, even though they both fall within the realm of mass murder. And I guess fundamentally that is because of a number of victims that are involved. That are that are you know, murdered at a single UH location, at a single at

a you know, single point in time. But clearly the motives and the agendas of the fender, of the individual of the murderer are are very different.

eldest male child. Uh So they are these cases of paracidal familicide are are relatively rare, even among family mass murders, because probably between eighty to ninety percent of family mass murders are committed by the husband or father in the manner that I described a moment ago.

So let's go back to the beginning of tom Old's old Odele's life. And because it's this is the huge part of this book is the why and why on Earth? And and so you've provided every single conceivable detail. Also take us back to the very strange family of Tom Odle.

This is the first child, and she had been also raised in a very oppressive and very strictive type of house hold by by her parents picking her father, and was restricted from uh a great deal of social activities and and so she had very limited exposure to uh to uh parenting styles and techniques, and so you know, she was really kind of you know to create shooting

in the dark. And with regard to you know, how she was, you know, how she was going to raise her child, and what she did then was basically kind of followed the similar pattern that her parents did. But she then took it to uh a unfortunately a very

devastating extreme uh in which she was. She would uh force uh social isolation on him, uh forced him to uh stay in this room, would not allow him to socialize with other children, would not allow the children to come to their house, would not allow him to go to other children's houses, and particularly before he started the school, he really had minimal exposure to other children his age.

At the same time, she was also uh also physically abusing him to uh beatings uh frequently, and then over time that became combined with a a great deal of verbal and mental abuse, very uh statistic type of demeaning statements that you know, she wished she'd never been born, and wished he would die, and wish she had wish she was not in her life, and uh she regretted

ever having him. Things like that. So these are the kind of things that that that he experienced from a very from very young age, the physical and mental abuse.

And you know, unfortunately for a child like that who particularly it was socially isolated, he you know, he doesn't you know, because like that don't don't know that that's that's wrong and that that's unusual and that's not the way that that you know, most parents and at least many parents treat their children and kind of assume that this is the way life is, and this is this

is this is how families are. And so he didn't really come to realize that there's anything unusual about the way his mother treated him until he uh uh started school and and started interacting with the other children more in uh say, in the in the second third fourth grade, and had an opportunity to observe how other parents interacted with their with their children. So that was really the foundation of his personality development. Uh. This type of abuse by by her, and at the same time, his his

father was really uh several steps removed. His father worked uh work, work, nights, and and uh it was it was very uh it was it was I think probably a very affable, likable man, but he was uh passive and submissive uh in his relationship with his life. And despite the fact that he knew that that she was executing this type of abuse on on tom during during those early years, essentially did nothing to intervene and and that pattern continued over the next you know, for for

the rest of their life. Basically because she then Uh, she abused her uh, their third child, Sean, and she actually I think somebody abused him more physically than she had actually even abused Tom. One of the things that she would do she would chain She would chain them to their beds at night so that she could, you know, she would go out with her friends, or she could go out bowling and then go out to socializing because her husband was at work and she was going to

go out of the town. And uh, so she would you know, she would change his voice to the to the bed at night. And so the other thing that she would also deprive Sean of food in the house and punish him if he did anything to try to obtain food, uh in the house. And as a result, then you know, of hunger. He would you steal other kids' lunches at school and that ultimately brought attention to to the abuse and led to Sean ultimately being removed from the old house by the DCFS.

though more a socializing. But and I'm glad you mentioned the chaining to the bed, because when people talk about verbal abuse and and physical abuse, it's good we get the details of this because this is where I say, this is maybe not as uncommon as some people would like to think, but this is quite unusual by most people's standards, isn't it.

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do something else. So uh it is you know, I think the important thing is to try to you know, try to imagine, and I think it's difficult for many of us to try to imagine what that you know, what that experience must must be like with your when your mother, your your your primary female role model, behaves in this way and and acts this kind of behavior on you as a young child, you know how that affects your self image and your self concept and and

your you know, your understanding of how you know, what kind of a relationship you have with your with your parents when you know, when a parent does something like this, So it's it's uh, you know, and what happened in Tom's case then is is uh he then? Which is which is very common in in in children who are who sustain this type of abuse, particularly at a very young age, is then they start acting out aggressively at

at school. It's it's kind of like there's you know, there's this this need to release this this frustration and anger and resentment that is just you know, building up against the mother and and it's not it's not safe to release it toward her directly because you're going to suffer more abuse if you do. So what happens is then these kids at school, you know, start getting in fights,

they start a niche and become more aggressive. And and that's what happened with with Tom and uh again, you know, and I'm not not trying to have proposed that this is you know, exclusi civily and you know, one hundred percent due to the abuse that he sustained. I mean, he's he's you know, he has a genetic makeup that I think also is contributing to some of his some of his behavior and some of the antisocial tendencies. I think.

You know, we now know pretty well that that approximately fifty percent of the in terms of the factors that contribute to violence, particularly in adolescents and then on into adulthood.

You know, about fifty percent of that comes from your you know, is biological and comes from your genetic makeup, but the other half is derived from your environmental experiences, your you know, your family relationships and you know, so it's the nature nurture you know, conflict, which is is always you know, debatable but you know, the science that at least in this point in time, certainly supports of

that type of division. So you know, when you when you add then the two together, so you've got, you know, somebody who's kind of you. You know, he's he's he's the he's the biological offspring of a satistic, emotionally depatched.

when she was when she was pregnant with Sean. This actually came out in the trials the next door neighbor. She stood in the in the in the driveway between the two houses of the next door neighbor and and and told the the you know, the the next door neighbor that she she hated, uh, the fetus that was to be Sean before he was even born. And uh. And and Tom would hear that mm hmm.

so we had that you know, experiential learning. Then she observes her abusing Shawn and and hears her talking about how much she hates sewn On even before he's born, and then continues to make those kinds of statements after he's born, and and then forces Tom to uh basically kind be the pseudo parent to Sean because she didn't

want to be bothering him very much. So she is still a great deal of resentment in Tom towards Sean, which is uh you know, makes it all the more uh sad that, particularly for for Sean, he was just set up to uh you know, I mean, his his short life was was clearly filled with with pain and uh you know, and an extreme lack of love.

How does he adapt? And for example, you talk about his sexual relationship even of course his parents have kept him socially inept or and and so what what happens to him at a young age in terms of sexual relationships? How does he adapt? And talk a little bit about how he adapts sort of trying to survive despite his background that he now realizes that is there's something definitely missing.

engage in you know, a lot of promiscuous sex with you know, with with young uh you know, adolescent girls, and which is which is a typical part of the the development of involvement into a conduct disorder. That that's one of the classic uh uh features uh of that in addition to some of the you know, the shoplifting and the uh uh burglar ring and the drug abuse, uh and and all those kinds of behaviors. They're all

they're all fairly classic. But I think, you know, I I I uh, I think what you may be asking about, uh and and and I think it's probably true that that he was you know, seeking some you know, affection and physical contact you know, through his you know, contact with girls, particularly in uh junior high school and and high school as he as he grew older, because he didn't you know, he didn't experience that kind of uh

that kind of affection in the home. He did experience received some some affection of that, you know, just maternal affection from his grandmother's So there there, he did have that experience. It just was it was always his time limited, and it was you know, it wasn't it wasn't as as often you know, he he loved going and and uh spending time at his grandparents house because he felt he felt like they cared for him and they loved him, and he didn't feel that at home.

And I was enumerating previously. He is you know, he's he's lying, he's acceptive, he is manipulative, he is you know, he will steal, uh, he will uh uh you know, he's he's breaking rules and he's violating laws, and he is uh you know, he is acting out in many ways, and he's getting in a lot of fights and uh, and that that is, you know, it's this part of the classic course there and and he did, you know, he he stole from his grandmother despite the fact that uh,

you know, I mean she's one of the you know, one of the few people that uh I think he did feel love from. But yeah, I mean he he you know, stole money from her and and wrote bad checks on her checking account and uh and got caught doing it. Uh and uh you know it was also it was primarily doing it to, you know, to get drugs.

And it's just kind of the uh, the negative spiral that you know, such individuals end up in where there's you know a lot of drug abuse and uh, you know, need money to buy drugs, and you know, I'm going to do it to get that money. And you know, however however you can and in this case it was it was, you know, basically stealing from one of the few people that really cared for him.

some defiance? What's the dynamic at home and how what what's the situation wation in the household itself, say, you know in his teen years or sixteen years old or so, yeah, in.

her physical abuse of him. But he had, Yeah, he had established himself as a problem child years before, and he wasn't really you know, he wasn't developing out of that. In fact, he was you know, getting worse if anything, and particularly with the drug abuse he was. You know, he's tom Oldos is a you know, he's he's a smart individual. He's intelligent, and you know, he could conceal his behaviors. I mean, most of the drug abuse, and most of the drinking was done you know, outside of

the house. I mean he would often he would come home drunk, and he would come home you know, high and uh uh you know, intoxicated with various drugs.

there you know, in the evening. And the mother as he got as he go into adolescence, the mother is she's out, you know, she's out with her friend, she's out bowling out of the town. So so it wasn't you know, there there he could, he could arrange it so he would you know, could avoid them. Hm.

for him, and he joins the army. So tell about his experience with the with the army.

and you know, she ended up then, you know, having an abortion, and you know, so he went off to the went up to the army, and uh, it's it is extremely unfortunate that he didn't uh stick that out, because that was probably the best opportunity that I think tom Ouldle ever had. That you know, he could have stayed in the army and uh and and worked through that and then you know, never actually returned to live in the the oldal house, and that would have probably

prevented this crime from ever happening. But unfortunately, uh, you know, he was still uh you know, relatively immature at that time, and you know, his girlfriend is still back in uh, you know, back in his hometown and writing letters saying how much she misses him. And the next thing, you know, he's you know, he's doing whatever he can to uh uh try to get out and basically uses the fact that he's got a bad knee and saying that, you know, he can't do some of the physical exertion that required

basic training. And the next thing, you know, he gets a you know, he gets discharged, he gets the medical discharge, and so then he's back, you know, he's back at home, and so you know, in his mind, to some degree,

he'd kind of it kind of failed there. And then as soon as he as soon as he returned to his hometown, he realized that, you know, his girlfriend really had moved on, and she had you know, she wasn't really just waiting for him, and uh and uh, he's really done that for nothing and uh and and and at that point, I think it was kind of a it's kind of the beginning of the uh of the

decline that ultimately resulted in the murders. I mean, he he made that decision, he went back there, and then he basically rejected and he then turned to a no holds barred type of drug fueled existence and returned to the property crime and the drug crimes that he had been committing when he was younger. And it was really a downhill ride for him emotionally and then psychologically overall.

something he felt really he belonged to. But yet when he saw her, she's what she wanted to tell him was that she had been fooling around with somebody he knew and she had moved on. So I thought, if anything's gonna you know, snap this this man to a certain degree, it said he if he said it felt like he broke his heart, and of course it led

to this decline. But is this Is there any talk or any research about how people perceive what one person might see is a traumatic event, another person might just shrug off that type of event.

to just lose it over this. And yeah, I've a little more will power and I've got some ego strength to to push me through this, and I'm gonna be okay, And may take me a little while, but uh, uh I'm going to recover and uh and you know that's what that's what many of us do. And we had that that resilience. Tom Little didn't have that that resilience.

And given his background, I think and uh, the the personality development that he had had previous to that, this was this was another in a long line of failures and rejections. And it was this kind of I think, almost you know, some degree confirming to him that you know, I'm I'm I'm not I'm not really worth i am worthless and I'm not you know, my mother's right, I'm I'm a loser and you know, so why why should

I try? Uh? And that's uh, with the perspective that he take that he that he I think that he took at that time, and I think that that's what

that's what he thinks he did at that time. And and there was there was one then, you know, final uh you know attempt that he made to you know, kind of get away from the family, and it moved to uh, Kentucky with some to you know, be a because he knew a guy down there that he had met in the army and and then that that kind of felt through and and uh, he felt like he had been manipulated, and that then just became got turned

into you know, another other personal failure. And and in my opinion, he at this point is he's becoming progressively.

people can't be trusted. And uh, it's you know, it's kind of him against the world and and you know, and that's what I was talking about earlier in terms of this kind of this is this uh, this spiral uh downward that you know occurred following his uh departure.

And uh, you know, he had, by all events, you know, basically given up and then you know, as you know, then, you know, as as time went on with you know, his his basically his his his refusal what is what his parents perceived as as his refusal to attempt to initiate anything productive and attempt to move on with his life.

and then just doing them immediately. And uh. The night before, uh he did, he had the the idea of of killing the uh, you know, at least some of the family members. I think primarily the idea at that point was to to kill his mother. The the the impetus behind the the Odal family murders was clearly to to kill Carolin Odele. Uh. And that was That's very clear, and that was very clear in his mind, uh at the time. But he did have that idea the night before.

It wasn't it wasn't a well planned it wasn't he didn't really have a strategy. It was more of a you know, it was an idea that you know, you know, I could I could just you know, just kill her and and then kill myself and and that would be uh you know, and that'll get the end of it. Uh And uh So there was you know, there was this uh you know, brief really somewhat fleeting uh premeditation of the of the murder that he did have the night before.

breakfasts and gone up school. And and Carolyn, the mother, had gone off to run her errands. And you know, she had uh to deposit some uh you know money from the bowling league, and she had to go to the school because she was at that time the parents she was president of the parent teacher organization at the elementary school where all the older children had attended, and and and the PTO had their meetings in the in

the school library. So that's what that's what Carolyn was doing that morning, so that Tom and his father alone in the in the house. And so his father was, you know, sitting in the kitchen, uh you having some having some coffee and having a little breakfast. And and Tom gets up and you know, as usual, smokes the smokes a joiner too, and and then you know, comes into the kitchen and and uh has some you know,

super visual interaction with his father. And then as he is uh finishing this this brief talk with his father, he he looks over and he sees the uh, you know, a rack of knives on the on the counter, and he uh, I think at that point it just kind

of registers with him. He remembers what he was thinking about the night before, and he uh he takes one of the knives, a uh an old Hickory butcher knife, that's the brand called Hickory, and uh, you know, tries to conceal it behind him and then uh and hopefully, you know, hope that his father doesn't doesn't notice it.

And then then kind of his surprise, and his father gets up to to move or to answer the phone or or or or something, but uh, you know, and Tom tries to kind of hide the knife, but doesn't do a very good job of it. And then uh the uh the next thing, his father turns around, Tom just uh just pulls out the knife and uh and

stabs him in the neck. And you know, his father, you know, looks at him in shock, and you know, sits back down, you know, backwards into the uh the uh chair at the kitchen table, and you know, looks at Tom and and you know, and disbelief and and and tells Tom that that he loves him, and and Tom at that point, uh uh thinks to himself, it's really you know, that's that doesn't make any difference, and

stabbed him again. And then uh his father due to massive blood lost because he's he's had his jugular vein severed,

bleeding peasely from his neck. He then slices the floor and and buys on the kitchen floor, and uh, Tom at that point then uh puts the knife down and drags his father by his feet through the living room, down the hall and into the master bedroom and then on into the master bathroom and h uh places him on the floor in the master bathroom, and uh then goes about cleaning up the the dragon arcs and the

blood's the blood that's pooling on the kitchen floor. And because he knows that his mother is going to be coming home within an hour and he wants to be prepared for her arrival.

uh he positioned himself behind the door. And Carolyn came in and closed the door and turned and saw him, saw him there behind the door, and uh uh you know, stared at him, and then he very quickly stabbed her two or three times in the neck immediately, and she staggered backwards, managed to stay on her feet and threw her car keys at him and and screamed at him, you know, are are you trying to kill me? And

and he said, he said, yes, I am. And at that point then she tried to maintain her balance and tried to escape from him by running into the living room, and he just attacked her while she was trying to escape from him, stabbed her some more. She eventually fell in the in the hallway, and he then dragged her into the master bedroom and and in a uh you know, rather sadistic manner, while she was still conscious, forced her to look at her dead husband lying on the bathroom floor before she died.

home earlier than the other two siblings. And so uh you know, Tom was Tom was there at the house when Scott arrived home. And uh and and Scott was probably Tom's favorite, Uh he was Tom really had no affection for his sister Robin. They really had no connection that they kind of resented her. She was the second child and and and his mother had, you know, showed her a lot of attention. And I think he had kind of resented Robin from a very young age because

of that. And then uh so Scott came home and and uh, you know, although you know, Tom had cleaned up a lot of them blood that uh was there. It's you know, given the amount of blood loss that occurs with with these kinds of stab wounds, you know, there was blood spatter on on walls and on uh you know, on the TV, and on the dining room table. There was you know, uh there was blood spatter and and and Scott could see it and what what what's

you know, what's what is this? And then Tom just kind of tried to point it off that this was solid. It was it was it's just paint we were painting earlier. And uh It's probably unlikely that Scott really believed that, but he probably was just confused and trying to figure out what was the situation he was in. And then uh, Tom eventually uh again, you know, I mean Scott's ten years old at the time, and and and and Tom eventually said, college, come back to the come back to

my room, want to show you something. And and so he is he alured Scott back to the uh to his dead room, and then uh when he was there, he then uh grab a pair of Pagana bottoms and uh started strangling Scott and eventually strangled him to death with the with the pagama bottoms.

I think in the before Scott had gotten home. Carolyn's best friend UH lady, a woman named Yvonne Uh, arrived at the old house, and unbeknownst to her, of course, UH, Carolyn and Robert already uh lay dead inside the home, and she was stopping by to share some news with Carolyn, and Tom basically went out and intercepted her in the driveway to an you know, so she wouldn't even get anywhere near the house, and and lied to her and and uh and managed to uh send her on her way.

I think it's it's probably an experience that that Vaughan looks back at and uh Uh. I think it's probably a a an event that has haunted her for only most of her life, because I'm sure I suspect she believes that if she had if she and Tom had not realized that she was, she had built in the driveway, and if she had gone up to the little back door entered the home, she would have probably she had

probably been killed. Right. So, after after the killing of Scott and Uh, Tom then Uh went Uh over to he went to pick up his other two uh siblings. He went to pick up Robin and Sean at at school and drive them home and uh, so he drove his father's car over to their uh to the to the school, picked them up, drove them home and then surprisingly they're at least according to Tom, there they had

two of them. Didn't really notice you know, the uh bloodstains or uh you know, changes in the uh you know, in the house environment, and kind of Robin went on her on her own way, went into her room and was doing something in her room, and and and Sean was talking to Tom and and then Tom said, uh, you know, you know, got Sean to come into come back into his room, and uh then basically blindfolded uh Sean, and then as soon as he had blindfolded him, and

he just started stabbing him repeatedly in the neck, in the back. And uh it's the point where I think Tom thought that he had killed Sean. And then kind of closed the door and went to uh find Robin, and then, much to Tom's surprise, heard Sean up and moving in the room. And so Tom then rushed back into that room and then uh stabbed Sean repeatedly in

the face and the neck. Uh and to extreme degree uh uh and uh and killed him then and then then he went to uh then he went to get Robin and uh right or he had uh uh placed Sean in the room with the rest of the family, and then went to Robin and was then alone in her room. She was an in her room watching television, so she was kind of unaware of all this, you know, that this was going on between Sean and Tom in

the other room. And uh he went to Robin and again in a in another kind of sadistic manner, told Robin and the other surprise for her and that to come with him. And he walked her down to the the parents' bedroom and sit behind her and put his hands over her eyes and and said, uh not, I've got a great surprise for you, and then and then released his hands and so that she saw her entire family lying dead and uh pools of blood in the

master bedroom. And then uh Robin started screaming for her life and and then Tom stabbed her death.

He laid the knife on the uh you know, the the the bureau in the uh in the room where all the bodies lay, and walked out of the house and uh gott in the got in his father's car, which he had always been prohibited from driving, and you know, went to pick up his uh, his friends and uh and his girlfriend at that time, because he had previously made arrangements to spend a night in a local a

local motel with his uh with his young girlfriend. And so uh what they did then was, uh, you know, he picked up his and his friends, They drove around, they smoked some weed, They got high. Uh I picked up his girlfriend at the burger king. They drove around some more, and then eventually they went to toy Yes, and he then also bought some more, bought some more weed, and uh I bought some PCP, and then they went to the the uh uh you know, a little local kind of mom and pop type of uh motel in

uh in Aunt Vernon. And so they went there and uh checked in and uh uh proceeded them to this you know, sit in the motel room, smoked some more weed. And then eventually the the other couple, the friends, uh you know, needed to needed to leave, and you know, Tom drove them, drove them home, and I left uh his girlfriend at the motel, dropped the friends and off went back to the hotel, and then uh you know,

he went to uh eventually went to bed. I don't according to him, he didn't really sleep at all uh that night, and uh, but I just didn't think he was still between the between the drugs that he was doing and and I think just the emotional state of this, of the aftermath of what he had done. Uh he was he still was in somewhat of a derealized uh

state of mind. And I think it really wasn't until the following morning then, when uh his uh his girlfriend called a friend of hers and was informed that the it had been now on the news that the police were looking for Tom Odle because his family had been murdered.

That the awareness hit him that, you know, what, what he had done, and he still had a hard time accepting it, I think, and it really actually took him, I think, a few days after he was arrested in jail to kind of fully understand and accept what he had done. According to him, his plan was that he was going to drop off his girlfriend that morning and then he was going to go out, and he had planned to kill himself and really didn't have but he

didn't have a really very formulated plan. But most likely I think he was probably gonna he would just probably do a high speed car crash and and kill himself, and might very well have done a hit on collision and killed yet somebody else.

and why he did this and specific reasons.

woman and I was rejected and my father could have stood up for me, but I was rejected and unloved. And so there's all these events. But when we get to the actual day of the murders and how he could think like that to murder his whole family, it seems that tell us about the I mean, I think that there's so much detail except for that in terms of why. And I mean, I think that's the big question what everyone asked from any killer is why. So, after doing this entire thing, what is your conclusion on

tom Odle's conclusion on why? How he could do this?

And you know, in my opinion, and I think, uh, you know, I think tom Otle agrees with me, for you know, I think having learned what he has learned from engaging in this process, and and and and some of the insight that he has gained from engaging in in this process that I think there are you know, there there are a number of key factors and uh the uh you know, the first of all, there are the factors that that that led to to him being who he he was at that point in his you know,

in his development and in his life, and those factors that all I've already you know mentioned, you know, the fact that you know he's got a you know, his his his early personality development is uh is is formed with uh, you know, a life of you know, physical and mental abuse, and that then influenced many of his choices as he you know, as he continued to develop and and the acting out behaviors and the aggression and the violence, and the drug abuse, uh and so on, and then uh,

the you know, the failures and the growing depression. So you know, in my view, uh, you know, they're there are all those factors that kind of you know, just formed who he is or who cumly who he was at that time. And then but I think what what really escalated uh it into a to a homicidal level for him to want to kill was the fact that you know, this this abusive mother whom he hated, uh

for for many reasons. Uh and uh uh that his father who when he was young, he had a religationship with his father, and he trusted his father, but his father was you know, allowed her, allowed the mother to

do what she did. And I think, you know, unless you're really familiar with kind of the dynamics of child abuse on a household, particularly with boys, boys will often in a situation where where there's an abusive mother and and there's a passive father who allows the abuse to go on, boys will often end up resenting the father as much, if not more, than they do the abusive mother, because you know, he doesn't protect them, and he doesn't you know, he's the father, he's dad.

but he was going to be abandoned. And the father who he had always kind of wanted to trust and wanted to love and and uh, you know, and wanted to align himself with, was now uh not on his side anymore. And and that was that was it. So he was he was all alone. He was uh you know, he was he was depressed, he was uh, you know, it was influenced by drugs, and and it was this you know, this revenge and hatred that that just came pouring out of him in this kind of drug fueled, nihilistic type of rage.

to him. But I think that's when you know that that's what happens with uh, mass murders, and you know, after the trigger is pulled or after you know, the knife is plunged, and after that first killing, first one or two killings, there's no coming back. It's you're, you're, you're, you're over the bridge, and you know, it's you know, uh, then it's it's then it then it becomes kind of an all or nothing type of phenomenon in the mind of uh, someone who is actively homicidal, and uh that

was the case for him. I believe in that it was you know, it's it's now I I now just need to take out the entire family and terminate this, this whole and terminate this family because there there's no coming back from this and my life is over and I'm gonna kill myself off tomorrow.

an explanation that makes makes sense. And and uh and and I can tell you that Tom Otle agrees with that.

And not to say he's being disingenuine, but it's just again, while we look for the answers, he looks for the answers, we look for the answers. In the end, there's not really any real concrete answers except other than this is a kind of a background that created this confluence of events that created this tragic event. And that's about all you could say. That You've done a splendid job of

really analyzing this as much as anyone possibly can. And it's very interesting the articulate and introspective letters that tom Ode writes and writes you and become the really the backbone of this book as well. And so I commend you for for both of you doing a great job and trying to understand this, at least looking at one particular case and saying this was the you know, the recipe for disaster that created that surely was the factors in contributing to this very very very sad event.

And and you know that's what that's of what we tried to do here.

is not what this is about. This is about, you know, uh, you know, an individual who looks back on uh, a life that is filled with mistakes and problems and bad decisions and you know that had horrible effects on many many people and five people died and uh you know he knows perfectly well that you know, no one is going to sympathize with him, uh, these whatever he endured. Uh you know he knows that perfectly will and he's

not looking for that. He is his his objective was is pretty much the the same as mine and and and that was really why we we did this book that you know, if if if if sharing the story can can possibly you know, and increase awareness uh for people, uh to understand how these kinds of crimes uh you know may end up being committed and and uh and and help people maybe I identify behaviors uh and tendencies that that uh that that may end up uh you know,

resulting in extreme domestic violence. If if that's what this you know, that's in any in any way and that you know, not to be grandiose about it, but if that can you know, help anyone, uh prevent crimes like this, then certainly I will be thrilled and Tom Odle will be very pleased that, you know, his story had some positive impact.

Certainly that you know, killers seek out typically, So again I just I got to commend the guy for being as truthful, because this is really what we're always looking for, is somebody to in retrospect try to look at this and try to explain basically something as horrible as this for those that might be I don't know, if you're person and it uses Facebook, or if there's a website, somebody might be able to contact you, or somebody might

want a more personal copy of a books. Often there is that possibility, I know, Amazon and Barnes and Noble in your local bookstore. But tell us if there is any way to contact you, if anyone is uh uh considering contacting you for any reason.

lot more information there that there. There are videotapes of interviews with media, and there are you know, other articles and reviews and and you know that type of information on the website. If you know someone who's interested in contacting me directly, you know my email address is UH our dash Handlin H A N L O N at Northwestern dot E d U.