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You are now listening to True Murder, the most shocking killers in true crime history and the authors that have written about them. Gasey, Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker DTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupanski.
Good evening, Think Nothing Ever Happens where you live. Suburban Nightmare is a collection of stories that are hard to believe except they really happened, and all in the streets and home of the Australia. Many of us know and live the suburbs. These cases range from recent murders to some historical stories that will shock and surprise. One of Australia's best young true crime writers, Emily Webb, probes the black underbelly of our towns and suburbs and exposes the
darkness at the heart of Australian life. The book that we're featuring this evening is Suburban Nightmare, Australian True Crime Stories with my special guest, journalist and author Emily Webb. Thank you for a green disinterview and welcome back to the program. Emily Webb, thanks for having me down.
It's the wise of pleasure.
It is always a pleasure. And you've outdone yourself with this collection. As I just spoke to you, I was outraged with some of these stories because, as I had mentioned, Australia has a similar system it seems to the Canadian judicial system as opposed in start contrast with the American system. Congratulations on a fantastic collection here. Let's get right to this.
Let's talk about a story that you titled mad and Dangerous, a killer named Kurt Dumas, and it starts off in September nineteen eighty five in Melbourne at a shopping center washroom and a woman is at the stall and cleaning up in this shopping center washroom and maybe you can tell us what happens from there.
Okay, So yeah, this is quite an unbelievable story.
Sorry.
This lady was in a shopping senate that's on a main street in Melbourne. It's called Mete Plaza, which is in Burke Street, and so this was in the nineteen eighties. She was in the washroom washing her hands and suddenly she felt like a pain in her back and she turned around and there was a man in the toilet and you know, staring at her. And she was absolutely terrified that he was about to rape her, and it turns out he'd shot her with a crossbow. Now she managed to escape.
He left, he got I guess.
Spooped in a way from doing anything. But yeah, so that happened, and that went unsolved for a while until this man actually committed a really really awful, awful crime and was arrested for it.
Now you talk about Kurt Dumas meeting Lindell Martin, Miss Martin, and they became friends, and they met at a Parkville adolescent unit, so they both had psychiatric issues. You say, so, yeah, tell us of all this meeting here and where Dumas their friends. They haven't seen each other in a while, and he Dumas is invited to Miss Martin's for dinner. So tell us a little bit how people discover that something went to miss at that dinner.
So basically, so, yeah, Kurt and Lindale had met, yeah, in this Parkfield psychiatric facility. And now they were both young.
They were sort of.
Like, you know, late teenagers, you know, early twenties when they'd met, and so they re ran into each other, I guess is how you describe it.
And they're both living.
Sort of living inner city areas in Melbourne, and kurtit invited her Lindell to come over and have dinner, you know, whether or not I think they were in some ways romantically linked at one point, but yeah, stayed in contact. And this basically what happened is, Yeah, Kurt had invited Lindell over and during the course of the night, don't know it. We only have Kurt's version of what happened.
He basically murdered Lindell, shot her with a crossbow, you know, as seems to be his with his weapon of choice as in the first attack, and then more horrifyingly as well as that actually ended up raping her as she was dying, and she was basically how it was found out that Lindell had died was Kurt's mother had gone around to his flat because he had fled. She'd been
trying to get in contact with him. Now there's a big history to him and his mom and his childhood, quite a disturbed childhood that I can go into in a bit as well. And she basically went to the flash and found Lindell's body covered under under towels, and Kurt had gone missing a few days.
Prior now they find they're looking for Dumas and he flees to Tasmania and staying at a youth hostel and that's where they arrest him. And as you're writing a book, they find a crossbow, ten arrow, some bullets, pair of panties, a lock of miss Martin's hair, a pair of handcuffs, masking tape, and a knife. And right from the beginning he starts admitting certain things and you write something that's
again very amazing. He was speaking to someone. He was saying, well, she was still alive and resisting and the police officer asked why he did that, and tell us what his response was to this question on why about the tell us a little bit more about what you write in the book about this.
So basically, yeah, he'd gone on the run. So Tasmania, for those who don't know, he's a state of Australia, but it's actually an island, an island at the bottom of the country, so he would have had to you know, get a get a ferry. It actually also sort of made a bit of a flip to a country town called Oyan, and he'd actually been stopped in the course
of that by a police office. But yeah, he was actually, so I really apologize my alert on like a computer and I'm trying to turn them off and I will, I will get to.
That, but sorry for that noise interruption. I think the update did something to it.
So basically, he was actually arrested in Tasmania and they found this kit.
Of stuff and he.
And and that that kid of you know, weaponry and I guess a rape kit or a murder kit you would call it was part of what he did to to Lindell and she'd and he bound her, bound her mouth and basically said he got something that he fired the crossbow at air when the police were like talking to her. He really he said that he was so distressed at her death he couldn't eat for days. And he denied actually raping her after he'd shot her with the crossbow. But basically he'd said that tried to claim that,
oh that was sick, that he'd never do it. But you know, the police were quite shocked basically that he'd done that. So it was quite sickening to the police who interviewed him.
Yes, now you talked about Kurt Dumas's mother and she gave evidence at trial. Obviously trying to mitigate the severity of his crimes and hence the sentence. But she did say that he had a severe head injury. So tell us a little bit what she said about his early life, these injuries and other psychiatric contact that he had with the thor So tell us a little bit about what she said at court.
Sure, So, Kurt de Musse was actually born in America, so he's an American citizen. He was born in Michigan in nineteen sixty five, and they had moved to Australia I think when he was about eight or something like that. But his mother had told the coroner's court so that in the coronial inquest into Lindell's death, she told the coroner's court that her son had actually suffered a really severe head injury when he'd fallen from a table when he was only a little baby, about three months old.
So I don't know what he was doing on a table.
Maybe they were, you know.
Changing his nappy or resting him there, whatever, I'm not sure. But she had said that since that accident he'd had several brain operations. That was in America, and he actually had to have.
A plastic plate put into his head because.
There was fluid leaking in the brain. So I guess it was a shump you call it. And shed the inquest that the operation really changed her child. I mean, I guess you don't really know what a baby's like when they're three months old. But he had grown into quite a violent, predictable child, and he had kept getting expelled from school because of his violent outbursts and had had several stints in mental hospitals in Australia and the
United States. Because they'd sort of moved to Australia, then he returned to America and stayed with some family members for a little while, and then he returned to Australia, so he kind of flip flopped around. And he actually had been caught in America when he was like probably a teenager. He'd actually been involved in an incident with two little girls who had basically almost really sexually assaulted and so he was then sent to a child and
family for assessment. So he's quite you know, he had a very checked past.
He was quite dangerous.
Absolutely now in ninety six finally the trial is in December ninety sixth and by that time, again he's despite the statements that he made unprovoked a police that would indicate this super blase and casual attitude about what he did, and also to intimate guilt. At court it was a little bit different story. But they did have letters that were written to a work colleague that you say revealed
the depths of his disordered and violent mind. What was some of the stuff that were written in those letters.
That I'm I'm just going to I'm just getting to the book. I'm flipping through it as we speak. This is actually one of the cases I think that really got me going on writing another book. So I sort of felt quite, I don't know, shocked by it, but yeah, it's almost like you want to put these things out of your mind from times when you so you don't have to think.
About it again.
But you're right, he actually did write to a work colleague he'd worked at it's like a factory that he'd worked with this colleague, and I think this colleague.
Was named John.
I'm just trying to find the actual exact reference, but it basically when they were tendered as evidence, it was it was said by the judge that, you know, the letters provided graphic evidence that there was something very wrong with his applicants' mentality. So his friend was a man called John Bejo and he they'd work together at like a small goods factory like you know that makes you know,
meats and salamis, things like that. And he actually gave evidence at the trial about a letter that Kurtjim Massid sent to him and in that letter quite sick. But Kurchi Massid actually signed as William Tell. That was his prison nickname obviously because of the crossbow, you know link and you know, in prison, I guess they're quite you know,
very very dark humor with their kind of nicknames. So basically in this letter, John Beato gave the evidence and said that in the letter it was written, I'm sorry what's happened. I didn't plan it. The chance was there and I took it. So John, I'm capable of killing someone and I'm not even feeling guilty. I'm not a mad killer. So that was, yeah, that was one of the things that you know, was further grist for the mill for you know, the evidence that Kurt was you know, quite a calculated killer.
Now with that, the court was convinced he was convicted. He was sentenced to life. And I want to preface that with very much like Canada we spoke just before the program, it's not really a life sentence, it's not an actual question. So he was sentenced to eat eighteen years before parole eligibility, eligibility, and then he got another sentence again, this is another thing we see in Canada A three years additionally concurrently, which means nothing in real
practical terms. And he was released right exactly. And now he was released as early as he possibly could you write in two thousand and three. Now, yes, I think this story might be ending. So let's tell us what happens with Dumas when he ends up back in his home country of Michigan or apartment of America, and back in Michigan. Tell us what happens after he gets out of prison and when he's back in Michigan.
Sure, so, yeah, he was released from time in two thousand and three. Now I'm not exactly sure. I couldn't find out, and if anyone doesn't know, I'd love to know you. So I'm not sure if was actually deported because in Australia they do have cause to you know, if you have been born in the other country and
you may not be an Australian citizen. Like we've had a situations where people have emigrated, as you know, ten pound Poms had come over committed crimes and then when they finished their sentence, they're actually deported back to their home. And that it doesn't matter if they'd been a baby, you know, when they came to Australia and they hadn't become an Australian citizen, they get deported. So whether or not he was deported or whether he left of his
own volition, I'm not sure. But he ends up back in America. Now there is actually mentioned that he has a daughter who was living in Hawaii. Now I'm not sure if this was a recent thing or if he'd fathered a child, you know, on when he was a teenager living in America. That stuff I couldn't find out. So he ends up back in America and he's living, you know, he's sort of working in some you know,
you know, just blue collar jobs. I guess he's doing, you know, living in renting a basement of a house from a woman whose name was Denise and rock House and she was in her mid thirties, and this was in the township of Redford in Wayne County, and so he was living in that basement. Missus Howe's was was separated from her husband, but she was in a new relationship with a man. You know, she had a boyfriend. So she had known Kurt through one of her jobs.
So I don't exactly know how it came to be that he rented the basement.
So what happened.
So this is in December two thousand and four, so you know, a year and a.
Bit after he gets released.
And so the man called Todd Newman who's in the relationship with Denise, is trying to contact her and he just can't get on to her. She hadn't shown up to her workplace. He'd driven by the house and her vehicle wasn't there, so she wasn't home and he was just quite baffled. So basically what he did with he was driving around the streets and he spotted her car, which was a Jeep Cherokee, but she wasn't in the car.
It was actually Kurt Jamass in the car.
And he knew Kurt obviously because he was the border in the house, and he basically chased it down, chased the car down and blocked the car off in a sort of coulder sack, you know, where he could where Kurt Jamas couldn't get out, and he called police basically, and so the police came, and you know, it was quite a suspicious situation. You know, Kurt Jamas had tried to evade the police, and you know, the police officer who was first on the scene had written in his incident report.
That he approached the car, saw the man he was.
This man was trying to rev the engine to get out of the ditch that he put himself into. And basically, so Kurt Jamask gets out of the car and they pat him down and you know, look at his identity and find out who he is. So they're obviously very worried about Denise at this point. So Todd's beside himself. Clearly he can't find her. So they all go back to the house. And so two officers went to the house to check on her. And this was probably quite late at night at this stage, about eleven pm. The
house is in complete darkness. The keys to the house are in the car, so they use these to you know, get in the house. First of all, they ring the doorbell and then they you know, that Denise's got a dog, a very big dog, and it's barking. It's barking like mad. So they wait for Todd, the boyfriend's come to the house so he can come the animal down, so, you know, so they don't want to get anyone injured. So they get in the house and they're calling out Denise's name
and there's no answer. So they're moving around the house and what happens is one of the officers goes into the bedroom and they find Denise on the bed. She had a towel over her midsection, her clothes were pulled up up, you know, she was naked from the waist down. There was blood, a large pool of blood near the side of her head, and she'd been bound sort of. Her arms were behind her back, and she was dead. She had been killed. And you know what had happened
was this is Kurt Jamas. He'd murdered her in a very scarily similar way to what he'd done in Melbourne, you know, all those years ago in the nineteen eighties.
So basically, yeah, he'd murdered again.
He'd been let out and he'd murdered again in a very similar way. So these women just had no idea how dangerous he was. No one did, and I'm not sure whether that's because of lack of information sharing between countries. I don't have all those details, but I just find it quite shocking, you know, that he killed again he was I don't know if he was being monitored when he went back to the United States because he'd been in jail in Australia. So these are sort of unanswered
questions for me. But I did get quite a bit of information from the Palace in Redford County that were very helpful with what they could give me under a freedom of information application. So that's how I got the details about what happened to Denife.
Yes, as you're right to do miss again at court tried to portray things differently than reality, but in the end they realized that and the outraged mister Newman, Todd Newman publicly you know, pressing for and and outraged over that somehow or other he could have been convicted before and then to do this again. And he had found out that when his girlfriend was still alive, that Dumas removed her clothes and had sex with her and put duct tape on her mouth and her hands. Taped behind her.
So and and when he denied premeditation, they did a computer check and so it at least it show that the information that they had in Australia again was incredible that this person was ever let out of prison, that he wasn't given a life sentence. This idea that somebody could have been rehabilitated from the kinds of crimes, given his background, given what he had done, given everything that he had said about the crimes, incredible, at least this time.
In America, he was sentenced to a minimum forty three years, maximum eighty and as you rate, earliest parole date two thousand and forty nine.
And he'll be most well dead by that and so I mean there's no real chance of him getting out. But he very very mentally disturbed man, very dangerous man. And there has been a lot of a lot of publicity in Australia Melbourne, especially in recent years because we have had some murders committed by people who were on parole and were not really being monitored closely enough. So now the parole conditions are extremely much much tighter.
So for instance, there was.
A murder in twenty and twelve of a young woman.
She was Irish.
She and her husband lived in Melbourne called Jill mar and she was actually murdered by a man who.
Was on parole.
He was a rapist and he was on parole. Really hadn't been checked and so that was really the case that blew open this whole issue of you know, whether parole is a bit you know, being properly monitored, and that the fact that they're walking out on the street and a real danger to the community. So there's been
an immense amount of publicity here. But in terms of, you know, when they jail someone for like your life without possibility of parole, we do have prisoners in Australia who do have that sentence.
In Victoria in particular.
There are I can think of at least probably ten that have that sentence, but that you know, it's the worst of the worst, and they deemed so dangerous that they can't be let out. But I mean, in my mind, Kurt jim Ass would have fitted that bill.
I thought he'd probably.
Needs psychiatric help for the rest of his life. Really at least.
Yeah, I think that any judicial system that wants to take chances with killers is irresponsible. And when this sort
of thing happens. Not that you can bring anything back or or convict these people of negligence in some way, but this demonstrates clearly why the US system is at least superior in this one way, despite the best intentions, maybe even the reformed, hopefully the killer would have changed in prison, but regardless, there's very little understanding in the community, and they listened to the community outraged to never let killers,
or rarely let killers ever out of prison. Some states are different, but certainly given all the circumstances with this Dumas, I cannot see how he was ever released the first time myself.
Yeah, And it's interesting because it's the case that really hasn't had that much publicity. In fact, I think this might be the first time it's been written about at length. But the way I found out the link was I had come across the initial case where he'd murdered Lindel Martin in the course of my crime rey search. And you know, as you do, you file stuff, you like, put it in a put it in a group of things, and think that could be you know, that could be
interesting to write about. I need to find out more. And it was when I was just you know, as we do safety Internet, you're typing things in. I found this link to Denise House and then I you know, did a little bit of you know, tracking back, and that's when I found out that yes, it was Kurtji Mats and I when I made the approach to the Redford County Police, I wanted to obviously be absolutely sure it was the same person, because you need to make sure.
There could be too Kurt Giamases. You never know.
But yeah, I was really really shocked because part of the documents, and they're the picture of it in the book that I got from the police was the actual facts to Interpol to check whether you know about his prior convictions in Australia and ended up yes, it was the same.
One particularly cinematic part of your of that story was when Kurt Dumas is the person that informs the police, and a senior.
Official like that said, hey, listen, I've got a criminal record in Australia. So that official call Paul, he almost can't believe. He can't believe it.
Yeah, that's right. He was shocked. I mean, when he was interviewed, Kurt Jamas was.
Basically he said he was saying to the I guess the officer who was booking him in he said, oh, how's jail and the man the officer responded, why is that? And he said, oh, you know, you know, I'm guilty. I mean, he's clearly crazy as well, but quite calculating with it. And at this stage they did not know
about his violent past. And then yeah, just a few hours later, I guess they would have found out from faxing into pol and you know, during the police interview, he he you know, obviously was talking about it and did mention that he'd been arrested for, you know, arrested for a similar crime.
Many years ago.
Now let's move on to We're not going to cover all the stories obviously in this book incredible collection, but I thought I picked out a few four and the next one I think that it really is one of the most amazing ones in the book is called the Ultimate Betrayal, The Murders of William and Pamela Weightman.
So let's go through.
This a little bit. I will say that in nineteen seventy nine this couple adopted David and they went to immigrate to Sydney, Australia, and she had a sister named Margaret Irwin and her husband was Alan. So tell us a little bit about who the Weightmans were and their life with David, what did it seem to the outside world, and the relationships she had with her sister and her brother in law. Tell us a little about their life before this tragic murder.
Sure so, as you mentioned, Pamela and William, who was known as Bill, adopted David as a baby in England in nineteen seventy nine, and then they emigrated to Sydney when he was about three years old and they settled into, you know, quite a nice life in Sydney. They ran a successful childcare center. They lived in a nice part of Sydney and really did give their son, you know, all the things that you know, you would want to give a child, and so it seemed like a fairly
good upbringing. And Pamela's was very close. The family were very close to her sister Margaret and Alan, who still lived in the UK, but I think they got together quite regularly. And yeah, so that was what life was like, and then it changed pretty tragically. In January of the year two thousand.
Tell us what happened that day and how Pamela's sister got the information the news tell us about that and the details of what she learned.
Okay, so what had happened is on the ninth of January two thousand a ranger was just doing a normal patrol of a national park in Sydney, Southwest and he noticed that there was a section of a wire a mesh fence that had been broken, I guess or was missing. And on investigation he found a car. It was on a fire service road, so quite out of the way of the off the beaten track as we say in Australia, off the beaten track of the main roads.
And he actually.
Found this car down an embankment and there was two people inside, a man in the driver's seat and the woman in the passenger seat. So they were slumped slumped over. The man was in the footwell and the woman was still secured by her seat belt. And these people were identified as as Bill and Pamela Weightman. And you know, they'd been married a very long time, they were childhood sweethearts and here they find them. They've they've died together.
What happened then is Pamela's sister and her husband had to identify them. They room as straight at the time they attended the morgue. The night they were found, no one could find David the son to let him know what had happened to his parents.
Obviously they were very very you.
Know, distressed and wanting to get in contact with him, and so they had to identify the bodies, and.
You know, their bodies were quite badly.
Bruised, and you know, they looked like they'd been through a real ordeal. But basically what happened was the coroner put it down to a car accident, and this just didn't sit well with Margaret Irwin. She thought, this is not right, this is not how my parents die. My sister and her husband died. This just doesn't sit well
with her. And basically David seemed to be very detached when he was told the news, like oddly detached when he found out his parents had died, you know, not the expected reaction you'd have when you find out some awful news like this. And then that set really in motion this quest by Margaret and Alan, and it really overtook their lives.
It actually broke.
Their marriage up in the end, but they were dedicated to finding out what exactly happened to Bill and Pamela, and unfortunately their suspicions were that someone very close to him that had killed them.
You talk about such a fascinating story because they really did have a fight, you know, Alan and Margaret Irwin really fought against everybody, even the coroner's report, to say, listen, she didn't have the ring on her finger. She would never left home without that, and Alan question why they were even driving in this park. And so what did happen was that t He pushed and he pushed and he persisted, and finally in two thousand and one, as you write, there was a re examination of the case.
They couldn't really they're not going to bring back the body because they were cremated. But the original coroner had to look at the information and realized his mistake, and so tell us a little bit about that mistake and his clarification of that mistake or correction of that mistake, and what that led to.
Sure, So, as you said, Margaret Erwin and her husband just kept pushing. They were pushing for people to reopen this and in between and amidst this, David, who had inherited all his parents' money, was you know, living the life of Riley, traveling, you know, border house, all sorts of stuff, just living the high life. So what has happened was, eventually they did convince the coroner, whose name was a doctor Kaylor, to have another look at the case.
So he brings up the original.
Post modern file on his computer and this is when he realized he's made a really awful mistake.
So in his.
Report, when he had said that Pamela Weightman, David's mother had died of head injuries from the car crash, he'd actually been looking at autopsy results from another patient and he typed, he typed an incorrect report number into the computer. You know, you know what it's like, you hear it time and time again. Just one wrong number, you know, one wrong number can mean the difference between you know,
a global financial crash or something like that. So he'd actually made this dreadful mistake and really botched the initial investigation. So the irwins kept pushing and pushing, and during this time they had really come to believe that David had killed his parents or arranged their death. So it was an incredibly you know, traumatic time for them. But basically, the injuries on the Weightman's bodies just did not match
up with coroner's report. So Bill Weightman had bruises on his face, but they didn't match up with the steering wheel, you know, so that suggested that they've happened before the car accident.
He had other bruises.
On his body and it actually on re examination, it actually looks like, you know, someone had held him down, like someone's knee was on his chest of bruises, or he'd been gripped or pinioned by another person. He had these bruises on his arms, so really they couldn't be caused by a car crash. And Missus Weightman as well, Pamela had also had bruising, similar bruising on her arms, on her legs, and there was also sedatives found in their bloodstream.
So this this new report.
Really vindicated the Irwins with what they strongly believed that Bill and Pamela were actually murdered. They weren't, you know, didn't have a car accident.
Now as well, one of the most dramatic parts of this story is you say this increased suspicion from Margaret and Alan. At one time, right after the murder of her sister, they had brought him into the family and tried to carry on as normal, but their suspicion grew and grew and grew, and so at one point the Margaret asked him and what it was. It's very dramatic. What does he say? How does she confront him? What does she actually say? And what and what does he how does he respond?
Sure?
So you know this this took quite a few years. So this is now in two thousand and four, so it's four years after they died. The couple, so they're still keeping David in the family fold. They're at a barbecue at their home. You know, it's Australian tradition, you know, a barbecue in summer and February, and basically they're pushing him. She's saying to David, all I want to hear from your mouth is what you did to my sister and her husband. And she claimed, you know that he David
said Terry killed them. So Terry turns out to be a friend of his, sort of a loose association who became kind of close to him, and they hadn't been friends.
For long before the deaths, but they had.
Bonded over a love of motorbikes, and this Terry Dnay had actually done some work, you know, for the for Bill and Pamela, like done a bit of driveway work for them. So basically, when Margaret Irwin heard this, she you know, ushered David away to a quiet spot and wanted to find out more. And she said that David told her I killed them. I'm an asshole, basically that's
what he said. Sorry for using that language, but that's a direct quote that that's what he finally cracked and revealed to her that he had killed his parents.
Now they have a trial. There is obviously this Terry Denay. It's a back and forth. David testifies against Terry. What isn't in the end, what is the result of the trial?
So basically they're both they're both in jail. Terry Denay actually got a longer sentence David Weightman, so it's quite you know, one of the things that really stuck in my mind about this case is, you know, the realization for Bill and Bill and Pamela that it was their
own son who organized their murder. And there is there was evidence that you know, he was fighting for his life Bill, but he was sedated, so he would have been obviously not been able to fight it off, and as soon as he found out, he just was like, you bastards, That's what he said to them. You know, he must have been imagined that just so shattered that, you know, his own son was involved in this. It
just would have been horrifying. So basically, Terry Denay is going to be eligible for parole in twenty thirty nine, so he's got a pretty long sentence, and David Weightman his earliest parole date is actually twenty twenty six, so in ten years.
So they've been.
There was a retrial that there was a few swarded trials, but Terry Denay was found guilty at a twenty twelve retrial. So yeah, they are they are going to be away for quite a while.
And the Irwin's, you know.
Obviously just left devastated by the fact that their nephew the child, but her sister and brother in law had adopted and loved and given a really good life to have done this.
So yeah, and her I think the most.
Telling quote I finished the chapter with was that Margaret il when I told a newspaper that her sister couldn't couldn't have her own children, and she was the happiest she'd ever been when they got David. And then you just have no idea that years later this baby will grow up to you know, you know, my child, my killer kind of thing. I think it's quite horrifying, yes.
And and why you call it the ultimate retrial too, is just to add even more horror to this is that he was present when his mother was being killed, and then the killer of Dunay came and said, listen, that was a lot of hard work. You know, there's a lot harder than you think. I need help with your father. So there was evidence, at least it seemed that he held down his father and killed his father because jeez, he wouldn't have wanted to go on without the mother and super twisted projects.
Yeah, and it was I think there's you know, there's guess questions about, you know, what heavy drug use does to you as well, because clearly he'd been an habitual user of marijuana and stuff like that. So I mean, you know, it's no excuse, but you do wonder what all this stuff does to your perceptions and your thought processes.
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Dot com, slash unsolved to listen now, Unsolved Murders Now, Emily, we talked about the ultimate betrayal and the incredible case of someone being released after murder to commit another murder. Let's jump to this case almost. This is incredible. I had no idea. This is one of the most shocking and unbelievable stories that I've ever read. Incredible and you call it The Butcher of Wollongong and Mark Valera. Yep,
this is amazing. In New South Wales, in June nineteen ninety eight, a housekeeper finds the body of sixty eight year old Frank rkel And she had worked for his father in the family. She had worked for him for forty years. He has been bludgeoned to death, hit thirty four times. Now he's the former Lord Mayor of Wollongong and he's a lifelong civil servant, worked in finance. He was the mayor from nineteen seventy four to nineteen ninety one and also elected independent member of New South Wales
Upper House. And he was passionate about his city. Now despite this seven years after his political career, tell us what happens, what is he linked with? And so tell us first about the murder itself, what police find, who finds the body, and then you can tell us a little bit about his very illustrious past.
Yeah, so you're right. So Wollongong is an area in New South Wales. It's quite heavily industrial, not as much so now, but it's time to the HP which is the Broken Hill petroleum still so it's known as Steel City. So it's quite heavily industrial, but it's starting to change. So Frank Carkel was you know, mister Woollongong, they used.
To call him.
He was was the city.
He was quite dedicated to it.
So yeah, he his body was found by his housekeeper. He was sixty eight at the time. He was in the bedroom of his granny flat, which is like I guess what we call a it's like a little bungalow, I guess, at the back of a property.
And he.
This housekeeper had worked for him for more than forty years and lived a few doors down, so she knew him very well. He had been bludgeoned to death, so it was an absolutely brutal murder.
You know, there's blood spattered everywhere.
And so he this crime did shock shocked the city. But Frank was quite a controversial figure because several years before he had been linked he'd been named him Parliaments by a fellow member of Parliament. He'd been sort of
linked to pedophilia. So there'd been a wood Royal commission into the New South Wales Police Service several years before, and basically his name had come up in the investigation because there was allegations of there being pedophile wings that were run by you know, high level people, so there was a cloud hanging over him. And to this day, obviously no one knows, you know, if it was true or.
Not that he was a pedophile.
He was a lifelong bachelor. That doesn't necessarily mean anything, but often that can be euphemism for maybe he was a man who you know, a gay man. I don't know, but yeah, he had been a controversial figure. But yes, so he was found dead and it definitely shocked the city. And then there was more to come. So people wondered, was this because you know of what had happened with the Royal commission of the allegations, was this a potential form.
Of victim of him that had done this?
And then there was more shocks to come for the city.
Now you talked about him being outed in parliament and that person's name was a miss franca Arena, and she also named and it's very interesting how the stories link in this book. A couple of stories that we will talk about this one in the next one where she also names a former and this is a very popular Again, you talked about r Kel being a popular person in
his city. This is a popular judge, I guess nationally or at least this is a very popular judge this name named David yelled him and so miss frank Arena names him as also as well. And then another former mayor apparently was a key player in this pedophile alleged pedophile ring, and his name was Bevin. And in his death in ninety one, you write, there was tape recordings and other communications and notes from customers and from the
boys they abused were found. And I proved that Bevin had abused boys and then shared them with other men for a fee. And then days after Miss Arena's claims, former judge David Yeldham gassed himself in his car and he said before he confessed to sex in public washrooms, but he denied having sex with minors. So this pedophial ring seems to be growing and more salacious contention all the time. Tell us what happens in the midst of all this next.
So basically you're right all those things that you mentioned in David Yaudham was a very well nine judge in Australia. He'd actually presided I've been many very high profile cases and you know, I did make make it clear in the book that there was never any definitive linking of him with this. It was just that franko Arena had
named him. But he had lived you know, he was a family man, but he had lived a private life of you know, private homosexuality, I guess, and had you know, he had admitted to the Commission that he had paid men for sex and was bisexual, but never never engaged, you know, in abusing minors. So it was actually I guess the shame of what had happened was probably too much for him, I guess, And that's what happened.
So anyway, in the midst of.
All these two weeks so Frank Carcale, that gets a lot of publicity that that murder, But what had happened was two weeks prior to that, another man in Wollongong had actually been murdered and mutilated.
He was a shopkeeper. He was very popular. He had like a little you know life, a.
Milk bar kind of shop thing in Wollongong, and he had been murdered and mutilated in his suburban home. It
was a suburb of Newcastle called Albion Park. And police were really really reluctant to publicly link those two murders because they actually were very fearful that there was some sort of revenge killer out there because mister r Kel, so mister O'Hern was gay as well, but just very you know, quietly, so you know, no word that he was involved in anything that Frank Arkell had been, you know, connected to. But the police thought, well, these men, you know, there's these links and they were.
Both brutally murdered.
So the police were actually really worried and they didn't want to get the city so scared that there was a killer on the loose.
Now you talk about this guy was mutilated, but as you detail, his head was found in the sink, he had been disemboweled and mutal leader's penis kind of off his left hand. A hammer was inserted in his rectum and some of them. O'Hearn's bowel was left on a silver tray along with pieces of intestines. Satan was written in the victim's blood on the mirror and wall and a pentagram and inverted cross and the killer this is. I couldn't believe the killers used O'Hearn's severed hand to
trace the bloody messages. Now what the police feel that there's there's some connection with the r Kel murder and they believe it again it's some in revenge of some abuse. What is their idea and how do they proceed in the investigation from there?
Yes, so basically, so obviously they've got the you know, the quite quiet suspicions that they could be linked, that yes, it could be possibly someone who had been abused and was the exacting out revenge. But there was no real link between Frank Carcel and David O'Hern except that they were you know, well known and popular members of the community. So they've got these definite concerns about this, and they there was another murder of another pedophile in Sydney and
they thought, oh, maybe that could be linked. It ended up they were not linked at all. But the brutality of the murders I guess got them extremely worried that this was someone wreaking revenge basically, and you know, there was some people who you know, offered up profile thinking that this was probably a Youngish man who was you know, committing these murders. So they also concentrated their investigation into people who had an interest in Satanism and the occult
because of the I mean that murder scene. It's about as horrific as you could ever hear about. And because of the you know, Satanism written on the wall, they started to look into people in the area who might who had an interest, and that actually led them to a man called Keith Schreiber and he actually didn't live that far from mister O'Hearn, so they are thinking, oh, okay, maybe he's good for this murder, and they knocked on
the door. Keith Streiver's flat mate answered and his name was Mark Valera, but at the time his name was Mark Vankreevil. He changed his name and he was nineteen, and he spoke with police and he let them have a look around the place, let them look inside his flatmate, Keith's bedroom. You know, they saw some satanic inspired music, posters, pretty disturbing hand sketches that depicted beheadings and things, so
they were starting to think, wow, this could be the guy. However, Keith Striver actually had a very solid alibi for the time of the murders. So the police are now just you know, on high alert. They really need to find this killer because they are very, very frightened that he
will kill again. So they're basically appealing to the public after this for information, and this this drew out some pretty pretty solid tips for them from from someone including a woman who said her ex boyfriends wore clothes that were very similar to the ones that the offender had been seen wearing, which were basically, you know, boots and Nike track pants, and they had been found at the murder scene at Frank Carkel's and they were not obviously
in keeping with any of the other things that mister r Kell's clothes, but like the shoes were a different size, and you know, he didn't wear night tracksit pants, so they thought that these must have been the killer's clothing.
Yeah, And the girlfriend went on to say that the boyfriend was fascinated with the murder and became aggressive when she questioned them about the bloody clothes that were shown on TV. And as a result of that, Mark Valera surrendered himself, as you write, as a killer of mister r Kel Annilhearne. And he had confessed apparently to his Taekwon Doe instructor, and they went to police and it
was a twenty hour interview where he confessed. Tell us about what Valera said in that twenty hour interview, which was incredible.
Yeah, it's pretty scary that actually found. What was really.
Frightening for police when they're very lucky that that he handed himself in, because it turns out that Valera was fashioning himself into becoming a serial killer, Like he'd made notes in a book called The eighthes It of serial Killers, and he'd written notes in that book that was some key evidence. You know, he'd written a list of people that he'd wanted to kill, and that did also indicate that people who were gay were on his hit list. So these men were targeted really for no more reason
than they were gay. Frank Carkel obviously very high profile, and because it was a you know, it's a smaller city, not the size of Sydney. People knew where Frank carcl lived, you know, that kind of thing, so it wasn't like he was not accessible, I guess. So what was really disturbing is that he told the police that on the day he killed mister o'hearne, who was the shopkeeper, he was very quiet man, went about his business privately. His reasoning basically was that he just wanted to kill someone
and it was just a random attack. So he'd seen mister o'hearne by sight when he was walking around the neighborhood, and really that was all it took for him to target him, which was really frightening. And he said that I had it in my mind that I just wanted to kill someone that day.
Yeah, that was that was an incredible At least people got that bit of closure as to the motive for this incredible crime, despite what the media had sort of more than intimated. Now, the thing is is that he said he had At the trial. However, of course, Valera claimed provocation as a defense, didn't he, Yes, he did so, particularly in the in the cases mister Ohanne, and this was must have been incredibly distressing for his family.
Valera tried to claim that mister Hearne had tried to you know, come on to him, I guess, and put him on the spot and asked for sex, which was absolutely not the case at all, like the forensics proved that. But that was his basically one of his defenses, that that that's why, yeah, he killed mister Ohan in self defense. But you know, it came out in the trial that Mark Valeria had had.
You know, a pretty.
Pretty horrible childhood no excuse, but these these things do get taken into account during trials, as you know from you know, Canadian trials.
But it actually also.
Claimed that he'd been sectually abused by his father as well, and this was apparently a real shock to people who had known the family, and he'd never before mentioned.
This, so that was also brought up in the court case.
Now if you even have the father goes on the stand to deny that there was any of this abuse, and then just when we think we're going to wrap up a story, he gets life with old parole and then ten days later tell us what happens ten days later?
Okay, so well you're right.
So Mark Falera gets sent in to life in prison and he is actually.
Never to be released.
So he's one of those prisons in Australia who will.
Never be released.
And he was the youngest person in the country in New South Wales the state where.
Wollongong is to get that sentence.
But yeah, so's he's in jail. So ten days after that sentence, his father's murdered. So Jack van Creevel is murdered. And what happens is it's even you couldn't think this story could get worse but basically the killer was Keith Schreiber, who was his flatmate and also the boyfriend of Mark Zilari's sister, Belinda van Creeble. So she had convinced Keith Schreiber to carry out this murder and it was brutal in the extreme where mister Van Creeble was almost decapitated.
And she was twenty at the time, Belinda, and she'd basically been the mastermind of this. She'd claimed that the father had also sexually abused her for years and had even started to turn his attention to her young daughter. And basically she told this to Keith Streiber and said that you know you need to kill him. You know, he was killed with a fire poker, a knife and a tomahawk. And Belinda van Kreebele and her little daughter were actually in the house as their father was killed.
And apparently Keith Striver told police that when he killed mister Van Kreeble, he did it for his friend Mark, who was in jail, and he said, I told mister van Kreebel, this is from Mark.
You bleef used an.
Expletive, pedophile, pedophile, expletive. You'll never molest another kid again. So Belinda had sort of, you know, said to Keith, you know, this is what's happened. You've got to like avenge what's happened.
To Mark kill my dad? This is the reason why it's all happened.
And she's actually sort of known. She's quite notorious in Australia. She's actually was the inspiration for a film that was made called Suburban Mayhem. It was like a black comedy about a manipulative teenage mother who gets her boyfriend who's pretty stupid, to.
Murder her father as she sits in the next room.
So she Yeah, she is a bit notorious in Australian circle. She is out of jail and they called her, they dubbed her Blinda like Evil van Creevel.
So yeah, you couldn't think.
It would get any worse, but it did. So this family certainly very very disturbed.
Again disturbing sentenced. Striber gets twelve years minimum. Again I guess it's a life sentence with twelve years for all eligibility minimum and she gets six years for so litening them. So yeah, scary sentences, scary stories, scary killers, scary sentences, and you know, to add even more horror to this story, we're not finished yet. Blenda and Mark win three hundred thousand from her father's estate.
That's right, and then.
It too, Yes, in twenty thirteen, you right too, that she attacks her boyfriend, stabbing him five times and winds up three years in prison.
Sorry, yeah, I can tell you about that.
Tell it about that, about when she attacked the boyfriend.
Is that what you want me to talk about?
Well? And also a sixty minute interview that was very sure, very very interesting.
Sure, so sixty minutes. It's similar to you know, the American version. It's one of our current affairs shows. So yeah, Blinda, she's out. She's with a man called Marshall Gould, and she attacks him. She basically stabs him during an argument, and he's still very protective of her, so he tells the police that he's been mugked and attacked by three men.
But obviously, when the police search the couple's home, they find a blood stain, and he basically tells the reporters when she was sentenced that he still loves her and he supports her, and it's because she's had a troubled childhood. Now they're not together now, so she does her jail sentence.
And further fuel to.
The fire of Belinda being quite a notorious woman. It was reported in a newspaper called The Daily Telegraph that she whispered to her boyfriend, if anyone asks why you're sticking with me, tell them it's because I'm sexy. And that was yeah, I'm one of those saalacious details of
this case. And so when she was released from prison in twenty fifteen, she gives this exclusive interview to sixty Minutes and the reporter you know, says to her, well, can people feel safe with you out in the community again, And he sort of smiles and says, oh, why not. And it's described that in one of the most dramatic moments of the interview. So the reporter hands Belinda the book that her brother had written his killing list in the eighth deet of serial Killers, and that had the yeah,
the handwritten list of his intended victims. And she'd never seen this book before up close, apparently, and written on the hit list was her name. And so she looks really shocked in the interview, but then quickly brushes it aside and says, well, that's.
Just him being angry. So there's this very odd.
I guess sibling bond between them. Yeah, that defies all the things that have happened.
Yes, fascinating, fascinating. Now we have time for one more story, and there's a whole another amazing one called The Killer down the Street Debbie Keegan murder, and you open with a very dramatic scene. Basically there's a crowd outside the courtroom yelling kill him, kill him, to a man who towards a man who had murdered and raped the little girl.
And you also include a eighteen months before this date, in nineteen eighty seven, another rape, but far worse, tell us about as you do in this introduce this story the Killer down the Street and the crowd outside the courtroom asking for someone's head.
Sure, so this case was from the mid nineteen eighties. It was nineteen eighty seven, and there's a very stock photo in the newspaper report. It's this line policeman trying to hold back this crowd who.
Are basically buying for the blood of this.
Offender who is being driven to court, you know, in the back of the back of the police wagon, and you know they're basically chanting killing, killing, So they're at Blacktown Court, which is in Sydney's out of West and you know that's a bit of It's always been known as a bit of a hard scrabble area, so real, real working class, really some pockets of real I guess social deprivation, but yeah, they're very, very They all gathered and they were just, yeah, wanting this guy to be killed.
What the reason they were also so upset was because eighteen months before there had been the murder of a rape of a young nurse called Anita Copy And this case remains one of still one of the most shocking cases in Australian history. It absolutely horrified the country. And Anita had been abducted on her way home from work one night by a gang of men, some of them were teenagers actually, and they had it's very disturbing. They had basically gang raped her and murdered her in the
most brutal fashion. So that community and Australia was really still reeling from that. So what had happened with this particular murder in nineteen eighty seven was of a little girl called Debbie Kegan and she was nine years old. And what has happened is she lived in a suburb too culture Gear, which is kind of in the Mount Druid area of that area of Sydney, So yeah, very yeah, quite quite a you know about a Batler kind of town, a Bautler suburb. I guess you'd described it at the time.
And so she had been murdered in her house. Someone had got into the house and basically raped and suffocated her and you know it wasn't discovered till the morning by her mother. So that just absolutely you know, devastated, you know, New South Wales again and Australia.
Yes, you aptly described this in vivid detail. And his mother had been separated from her husband and she had four little girls living in a house. And when she woke up in the morning after she put the kids to bed, the Debbie was sleeping with her sister, Sarah, which was seven yep. And when the mother came to wakem in the morning, her daughter was unresponsive and then she discovered the brutality, the savage murder, and also that the window had been open. But anyway, the outrage in
the community is obviously natural. But as you say, the police didn't find any forced entry, so they have to speculate that they knew the family, but there was something that had happened on the night that Debbie was killed next door, So tell us what police thought about that possible connection from that break and enter that same night.
So yeah, on the same night that Debbie was killed, there had been a burglary at the house next door to Debbie's Debbie's house, and a video recorder had been stolen. So the neighbor had woken up at about four am to feed her baby, and she'd seen her front door and land room window wide open. Now, you know, back then, simpler time, you know, maybe people didn't lock their houses
as much as they do now. But the police just found it quite interesting that this had happened on the same night that Debbie had murdered, So they were trying to work out if it was connected or if it was just a coincidence. And there was no sign of fourth century to Debbie Debbie's home, so yeah, that led police to believe that the killer knew the family, or
they knew they possibly knew the family situation. That there wasn't like an adult male in the house at the time, so obviously they might feel, you know, it was easier to commit a crime. So yeah, they think.
That possibly the killer just really walked in the door.
Oh you know, Debbie's mum had fallen asleep in the ta you know, in front of the taba.
We've all done that before.
And yeah, the killer it possibly got in the house.
Now two days after while people, you know, the community is reeling and the police are are are running around trying to look for suspects. Two days after, a seventeen month old was abducted in Liverpool and the person who took them also in that case stole the video camera. Now that baby was found, but there there was an attempted sexual assault. So now and then we take it from there. You take it from there that Now we're at the funeral for Debbie. Yes, and tell us what happens at this funeral.
So yes, obviously there's like more than one hundred people at the funeral, very emotional. The media were there and on the cover of the service booklets Debbie used to do little tapist reason, they had a picture of the
tapestry she'd done when she was six years old. So it's just heartbreaking, you know the innocence of that match with the you know, how she died and during the funeral, so all the media there there was a handwritten note that was basically thrown into a television then part near the cemetery, so they handed the letter to detectives and the note was written in three different colors of pen
and had quite a few spelling mistakes. And this letter letter writer claimed that the killer was known to the Keigan family and was actually at her funeral service. So look, the funeral was widely covered in the newspapers. And the letter also made mention of another case in nineteen eighty seven prior to Debbie's murder as well, a little girl had been killed in her house while she was helping
to set the dinner table. Someone had driven past the house and basically fired into Lack a drive by shooting. Her name was Testabrinkat and she was five years old. And that that was another very very high profile case in a hit. You know, people were absolutely appalled and it really called into question, you know, the violence around Western Sydney.
What was the government doing about it?
So basically what had happened was it actually never really a lot of the charges got dropped against these people, but it was apparently a you know, some sort of payback I guess against Tess's father, who was allegedly having a feud with one of the people who had been arrested for shooting.
So it was a really, really horrible, horrible story.
Of an innocent, a little innocent girl like Debbie being murdered.
So, yeah, so that happened.
They didn't really work anything out more from the note, but it did gave them stronger cause to believe that, yeah, the killer was going to be close by. It wasn't someone who traveled from out of the area and committed the crime.
As I mentioned before, what's interesting is that that person that was convicted of manslaughter in that shooting of that child was again life, but served only twelve years, and he was sentenced by the judge David yelled him from the previous story. Now it tells you that now you jumped to the police have or get a suspect for Debbie's death, and it's Rodney Thomas Clark. How did they come to he become a suspect and once they have him, once they questioned him, what does he do?
He basically confesses. So they'd interviewed him a few days after the killing, because they'd obviously gone around in campus the area and interviewed lots of people, and then again a week later he went to the police station, the local police station, which was Mount Droit PlayStation. He went voluntarily, so he was a twenty one year old. He was with his parents and younger brothers in the same street. And in this police interview he admitted he killed Debbie.
So he told them he climbed in the back window to get access.
To the house.
He just walked through the house, noticed that Debbie's mum was asleep, and he claimed that Debbie had disturbed him, like whether or not he was there to rob the house.
But then it.
You know, he claimed that he put his hand over her mouth and he didn't mean to kill her. But then obviously police are questioning him about, you know, she was sexually assaulted, and it basically turned out that it was while this was happening, she'd been suffocated because he was like holding her head down into a pillow. So it's just the most awful thing, like, yeah, and that's how she died.
There wasn't back and forth too, of course, to mitigate his sentence. Of course, why not. They found him borderline mentally returned guarded, but he was sobbing in court, as you report, his family was supporting him all the way, and they talked about his history of drugs and alcohol. At first he had said he was not alone, but later admitted that that was a lie, and there was some attempt in appeal court to say that this was
opportunistic and not yes that he had ended to kill. However, tell us about this, how they authorities find something that's contrary to that a list?
So is this when he gets it's the appeal for the sentence or the initial sentence. I'm just trying to remember the.
Well, what I'm talking about is that he provides that someone provides a long list of the sexual fantasies with where he mentioned abducting underage girls.
Yep, that's right.
So he basically had had talked about that and it was in I think an offender. So he's in jail, he's attending he's attending something called a custody based intensive treatment program, which when people undergo that, I guess it goes more favor favorably in there. You know, it's more favorable to them when they want to go for parole. And he basically admitted.
In that.
In that that his offenses were not opportunistic, as he'd said at the time of his arrest. So he'd revealed during these these this program that he'd actually had, as you said, a long history of these kind of fantasies with a violent scene underage girls, and he had he knew, he knew Debbie, he'd seen her around.
And he had thought of abducting her.
So it shows the premeditation there, not that he just strolled into the house, you know, just on a whim and was disturbed by her, you know, while he was trying to rob something.
Certainly, Now, again, the most horrifying part of these stories, I think is the judge thought, despite all of this, that this guy should be eligible for parole. Yes, yet I have to see about this well, the.
Public did not like it and does not like it because.
He is eligible to apply for parole again next year. So you know, one of the justices in the appeal said that, you know, because his family has stood by him and they believe that we continued counseling and his family support, his mother still around, his father had died, that he could possibly establish a laura abiding.
Lifestyle in the community.
Yeah, I'm not sure about that, but basically, yes, this has not gone down well. And I think the most horrifying thing is every time this comes up for Debbie's family, it re reopens the wounds. So what as well as public outrage with people like calling in talkback radio, some people have actually also started petitions, so you know, online petitions.
Are very popular now.
So last year a woman started a petition to lobby for his parole to be denied. Lots and lots of people, hundreds of people have signed it, and you know, people you know leave messages about how the crimes impacted them, and basically the thoughts.
The thoughts are that you know, he's a.
Monster, you need to keep him behind bars. So look, he is actually yeah, he's up for parole next year. Whether or not he gets it is another story, but I guess it's his legal right to do that. But yes, there are questions about whether whether you'd really want him living in your street or not if he gets out.
It's incredible to me that the parole board ignores the public, ignores the family's intentions, and then seems to compartmentalize the behavior of this killer and confine it only to the behavior in prison in a controlled setting. With these so called rehabilitative programs. Now, I believe in rehabilitation, I just don't believe in rehabilitation for these people at all whatsoever. And the horror of a family and friends having to make an online campaign every two years, like they do
in Canada, the same thing we have. Again, it's thank god it's popular, but again it takes this incredible effort to get these people which are unlikely to get parole. And there are high profile cases in Canada like Paul Bernardo and Robert Pickton will never get out and there would be an incredible outrage if they were ever considered to be out. But despite that, there is still slim possibility.
And that's why it is so good to have a provision of parole, of a life sentence without the possibility of parole, and all these stories illustrate that and demonstrate.
That so right, And you really, I mean for Debbie's family, you know, her sisters are adults, have grown up without their sister. I mean, I can't I've got two children myself. I can't even imagine what it would like.
To be lived through this.
But I you know, I do believe in rehabilitation as well, but in certain cases like this, you've got a question, you know, would you be able to not act out on your fantasies or you know, the fact that you've killed a child before?
I mean, how can.
You really be let out in society?
That would be my question.
No, there's no I see no need, in no demand to risk even if it's a slim risk, a statistically small risk, regardless, and put the family through anything more than a murder and a court case. And in some of these cases, the victims' families have to go pursue and hound the courts and then hear again a quarter
appointed defense lawyer lie for their client. I know they're just doing their job, but lie for their client in again the most outrageous offensive ways to denying what this perpetrator has already omitted.
Incredible, that's right, And you know you've got to think of when if indeed, you know, they've got great family support, and I'm sure that does go a long way for offenders and they come out to rehabilitate. But what happens when the parents aren't around, you know they've died because they're elderly. These people are, you know, left without support. I just don't really see without absolute scrutiny and supervision,
you could really prevent them from doing something. I don't know this this case, Debbie's case is just so horrible and that's what I included in the book because it just seems outrageous to me that you know, he is eligible for parole.
And it did.
It really really hurt that community. They were already hurting from the previous murder of Anita Cobby. It shocked them and they were they were the spotlight was put on them as a community and they're really just you know, pretty pretty down to earth people, you know, working class people looking out for the community, and it really I guess it really shocked them that this could happen.
Well, I think the best supervision is you know, an eight by ten cage and that's guaranteed that they're being monitored and supervised forever. I want to thank you Emily for coming on and talking about this latest suburban nightmare Australian True Crime Stories for those that might want to find out a little bit more about your work, or do you have a website and do you do Facebook? Let us help I do. Let's I will.
I'd love to let you know I have a Facebook page called Emily web Books, so.
You can look that up.
I have a website called Emily web Crime which just details the stuff I've done, and for North American listeners, the book is available on ebook. It's not available in hard copy unless you want to order it and pay the postage. But it's just had its print run in Australia. But it's certainly available by ebook, and I do have a lot of readers overseas who get the books that way, so I'd really love to get some feedback if you
want to talk to me about anything. But yeah, if you go over and light my page, that'd be great. I also have a blog that I've been doing for a number of youths called True Crime Reader.
I just review true.
Crime books and there's a Facebook page for that, so that's that's another avenue to contact me.
Well, thank you very much, Emily. It has been an absolute pleasure talking about Suburban Nightmare. I know I will be speaking to you again fairly soon. Thank you very much for this, and.
Good night, Thanks jan good night, good night.
Do you like true crime or mystery podcasts, movies and TV shows? Well, let me recommend a podcast I love called Unsolved murders true crime stories with the help of an ensemble cast of voice actors. Follow hosts Wendy and Carter as they take you on an entertaining journey through real crime scenes an attempt to solve the case. Listen now on your favorite podcast directory, or by visiting Parkast dot com slash unsolved. That's spelled Parkast p A R c A s T dot com slash unsolved. Goodnight, m