SUBMERGED-Janice Hisle

Former Cincinnati Inquirer reporter Janice morse Heisel, who covered the sag of Ryan and Sarah Widmer from the start, returns ten years later to dig deep to tell the untold story. Dozens of interviews, six thousand pages of trial transcripts, and previously unrevealed records such as Ryan's first written statement about Sarah's death, attorney's notes and trial preparation documents, Ryan's personal journal notes, and correspondents, more than a thousand pages of

police notes and reports. Submerged will draw you into the depths of a stranger than fiction story that you will ponder long after turning the final page. The book that we're featuring this evening is Submerged, Ryan Widmer, his drowned Bride, and the justice system, with my special guest journalist and author, Janice Heisel. Welcome to the program, and thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. It's Janice Heisel.

they bought a house that was already constructed. And one of the reasons that I became so enthralled with this case is that this subdivision is near where I live, which is right about forty five minutes north of Cincinnati, Ohio. It's kind of a smallish town, and a lot of people started to start to wonder whether quote unquote small town justice was at work here. Because it was a smaller police department, they only had one detective to investigate

this unusual death. And that was part of what kind of wrapped everybody into this. This is a weird way to die, drowning in a bathtub age twenty four. How does this happen when there's no sign of drugs in her body or around the scene, There was no sign of an intruder. Husband must have done it. Seemed kind of like an open and shut case right from the start. But the more people found out about this, the less that seemed true in some people's minds.

and Warren Counties. Warren County is where this particular incident occurred and happens to be where I live, So I remember hearing as part of my job, I would make regular checks with various sources, police, coroner's office, secretaries, people like that, oftentimes by phone because my territory was so big.

But I remember hearing a little bit of scuttle but just there was something weird that happened down the road, but nobody would really come out and tell me exactly what this was at first, and then finally we heard that maybe it was a drowning, and if I recall correctly, one of my editors said, well, let's just wait and

see what happens. And then sure enough, then next day after we first heard about it, is when this press conference was called and the media just flocked to this small courthouse so we could hear what was this mysterious case, because it wasn't very often that you would hear about any kind of incident of a big consequence in this little town. In fact, this was the first quote unquote fresh homicide in a decade in this community.

something along those lines. And what was very unusual about the content of the press conference was the prosecutor and the detective Jeff Brayley, both kind of concurred that there was evidence of a violent struggle at this scene. And that was the thing that left everybody really wondering what was this mystery evidence? Now? I was kind of known for being that annoying reporter at the press conference who

wouldn't let the public officials off very easily. So I kept grilling them and saying, well, how did you you know? Was this something obvious? Was it at the scene? Well, it was something that required the skills of the coroner to reveal. And I thought, wow, So it wasn't something on the outside of the body. It was something on the inside of the body. What could that be? And that was the thing that made everybody wonder really deeply about what is this mystery evidence of a violent struggle.

the ranks in the county government. It was kind of unusual, I hate to say this, the kind of the good old boy network for a female. She became the first female prosecutor in this county, and a lot of people thought that she had a lot of ambitions to become a judge, and she eventually did become a judge. Now, I had a very good relationship, I would say, a very good working relationship with both Rachel Hutzell and with

the lead investigator, Jeff Brailey. Now, neither of them were the kind of people that I would you know, go out with socially, and I think this was a professional relationship. They were my trusted sources. However, in Rachel's case, she played a lot of things very close to the vest, and I had a hard time ever getting to really

go off the record and speak candidly to me. But Jeff, on the other hand, he was somebody who, even though he worked for a very small police department, he was somebody who I had the impression and so did many other people, that he kind of liked being in the limelight when he could be, and he was actually a very good interview and I considered our relationship to be pretty what I would call symbiotic, meaning, Hey, I need stories, he wants to be in them and give good quotes.

So that's a good relationship when you're a news reporter. So Jeff also it was kind of interesting he was a minister on the side, and in fact, his role as being a minister was what led him to be on the police department. As odd as that might found. Jeff had been the chaplain for the local fire department, and that kind of his responsibilities morphed over the years until he became part of the police department, and there are a whole lot of questions that were raised, especially later.

I didn't know him very well until he ascended higher into the ranks about how that happened, So it was kind of an interesting progression from his career.

It was just sad to me that I never got to know her, and the more I spoke to people, the more I had wished I had had the opportunity to know her. She was described as being very feisty, but also had a little bit of sweetness tor the kind of person who would make cookies for someone who was sick or at Christmas time or whatever. Just a sweet touch tour but don't cross her kind of thing. And she grew up in a town called Trenton near Trenton, Ohio,

where there's like the Miller Brewery. It's kind of very blue collar area. And likewise, Ryan Ryan Widmer, who later became her husband, he grew up in a very blue collar community as well, but his was a larger blue collar community known as Cole Raine Township. And this is on the west side of Cincinnati. And Ryan was a very talented athlete. From what I've heard, he was the kind of guy after I got to talk to him, that doesn't like to kind of toot his own horn

very much. But a lot of people thought he was a pretty talented athlete. He ended up going to college and the playing baseball in college, and that is where he met a man named Chris Kissed and Chris was his college roommate, and Chris was married to a woman named Dana Well. Dana ends up working with Sarah Stewart at a dental office, and Sarah and Dana became very

good friends. So Dana and her husband Chris thought, you know what, their personalities, Ryan and Sarah's personalities are very similar to ours, where Ryan's kind of reserved and laid back, and you know, Sarah's more feisty and likewise, the same could be said of Chris and Dana, and they thought, well, since we get along so well, hmm, they're both single, why don't we play matchmaker? So they kind of arranged a safe double date, so to speak, in case it

didn't work out. It was that the four of them went out to have a few drinks and some appetizers kind of thing, and they were amazed to see how well that Ryan and Sarah really hit it off from the start.

gleaned from interviews after the fact. However, you start. There were some records that I was able to obtain later that started to give me some insight that Sarah's mother may not have been entirely thrilled with the idea of her daughter marrying Ryan, And it didn't seem like there was anything personality wise or relationship wise that she didn't like, but rather, according to the documents that I saw, she expressed misgivings that her daughter was making more money than

her husband to be and kind of had a belief, I think that the man should be the breadwinner. So, as far as I could tell, though, the families got along pretty well, in fact very well. There was never any no one ever brought to my attention any kind of friction between these families, and it seemed to be two big, happy families melding together as a result of

this romantic wedding, and you know, people were thrilled. The wedding pictures show a lot of exuberance and joy, and it was really sad later on for me to get to see those and know what the eventual outcome would be. Only four months after that wedding day.

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and what a seemingly preposterous thing to say. So, but then it might not seem as preposterous if you're a reporter like I am, and you start to talk to friends and they tell you that they were concerned about Sarah's health, that she would fall asleep in odd places. They would say, what kind of twenty four year old woman falls asleep at a tailgate party in the daytime? And also in a crowded football stadium, and Dana kissed

the coworker who ended up playing matchmaker. She even justified on the witness stand that Sarah would go into a darkened room to try to ease her headaches. She would get these terrible headaches and see spots. And the day that she died, Dana was no longer working there. But that very day everyone at the dental office said that Sarah didn't feel well, that she had this odd pain in the back of her neck, and that her stomach was upset. And look, some people might see that as

being those are kind of everyday complaints, maybe not anything sinister. However, there are a lot of people who are familiar with seizures, and they say people who have seizures can develop what's called an aura, or a collection of symptoms that let the person know, hey, I'm about to have a seizure. Now they become familiar with this aura. But what if this was a first time incident. Maybe the things that were happening to Sarah were many seizures, all of those

sleepiness incidents and the headaches and whatnot. So again, what seemed like maybe a little of a clear cut case for some people. If you start to layer onto that the facts that were coming out about Sarah, maybe.

that sounds, what if there's an explanation for that? Ryan Widmer would later provide that explanation, and his lawyers would through some documents that I saw, But that was a fact that didn't come out until the case went to trial. About the dryness of the scene, They kept that under wrapped pretty well.

And then the next court appearance, very similar thing. You know, we have the brother of Sarah saying, you know, in our heart of hearts, I still remember this quote, in our heart of hearts, we don't think he did this. We don't believe he did this. That that really struck with me. It was a very touching and sad thing to have the brother, the only brother of this reported victim of homicide up there saying, hey, we want this

guy out. We don't think he did it. And so eventually the bond did get released to about four hundred thousand if I recall correctly, which then was enough for the family to put together. You have to put together a ten percent of that and he was allowed out. But get this, he was released just a couple hours too late. They delayed the memorial service and they were trying to get him there, but he was released a couple hours too late to attend.

violent struggle. I write in my book that I remembered thinking, well, maybe her head was kind of like bashing and you couldn't see it because her hair covered up the damage, or you know, something like that. I thought was going to be something very very dramatic and clearcut undeniable. This guy is going straight to prison. Do not pass go, do not collect two hundred dollars if he was going

to prison. But when it came out in court, the corner said that what he thought was evidence of a violent struggle was actually bleeding inside her neck and upper chest area. And he said he believed that there were actually two areas of bleeding. One that was attributable to a needle stick that the prosecute that the I'm sorry the paramedics made in her neck to try to start

an IV. But the other part, he says, was most likely the result of force, somebody forcing her into the water by grabbing her in the neck slash chest area. Now the interesting thing though about that is it depends

whose expert you believe. The defense put on an expert witness who is actually world renowned doctor Werner Spitz, and doctor Spits wrote what is considered to be the quote unquote bible of forensic death investigation, and he actually came in unbeknownst to the prosecution and did a second autopsy after the coroner's autopsy on Sarah Windmer. He said he didn't think there was any way to determine the manner of death. Now, a lot of people confuse manner of

death and cause of death. In this case, the cause of death no one disputes is drowning. There was water in the lungs and that's the cause. But the manner was it accidental? Did she slip and fall, did she have a seizure, or was it homicide? Which is what that coroner ruled it. However, doctor Spitz said, wait a minute, not so fast. He believed remember that in area and the neck that I mentioned. He believed that all of the bleeding in that neck area was attributable to the

attempt to save her life with that IV. That it was one area of bleeding, not too one caused the IV not too So that was a very interesting conflict. And there was actually no sign of trauma whatsoever on the outside of Sarah Whindmer's body, which was another very odd thing. Her nails, her elbows, her knuckles, her knees,

no damage, no sign of struggle there. So I was kind of expecting you again something more dramatic, something bigger, other than this neck injury which is disputed and disputed by an expert that a lot of people would say was extremely credible. So again, which expert do you believe?

to the laundry. They found that there were no drying, freshly dried towels in the dryer, for instance, that neither of the car's engines or hoods were hot, indicating that maybe that the evidence was taken away from the scene, so there were no wet towels found anywhere. So the defense version of this is this was a silent slipping into the water, not a violent gas and that explains

why there's not water splashed everywhere. If this is a violent struggle, as you contend, mister and Ms prosecutor, then water would have been splashed everywhere. Correct. So there are so many things about this case that you look at it one way and you go, wow, that looks really bad, But then you hear the explanation and you start to wonder, wow,

that sounds like that's actually plausible as well. Having been a reporter for our gosh over twenty years, I would see defense lawyers make arguments that I would call bs on. I would like no. But in that case, that made a lot of sense to me, and I think to a lot of people who followed this case closely. So that was, you know, again the wetness versus the dryness. As you mentioned about the bathtub being brought into the courtroom, it was very interesting to me as I began to

research this book. I didn't know until I researched the book that the defense knew that it the seizure of the bathtub by the authorities was actually probably not legal, but they chose not to fight that at the time because they didn't want the headline in the newspaper or online to say defense tries to hide evidence, and so it was actually a tactical decision for the defense to

not fight the inclusion of the bathtub. But as I bring out in my book, I really believe that that bathtub just became such a tangible, visible piece of evidence that the jurors would play over in their head what happened in that tub, what happened in that tub? And without that bathtub being there, pretty much staring at people, if a bathtub can stare that, they may not have felt as strongly as they did about the handprints in

the bathtub. And I know you know about that the finger streaks that were found in the bathtub, and the inclusion of the bathtub and the finger streaks were very much disputed. Later the finger streaks were said to be Sarah's as you supposedly clawed out of the tub, and then the argument is what she clawed or attacker instead of clawing at the tub. So you can, again, you can look at this two ways.

check that he was going to collect. If if he had, would you know, kill her and then get away with it sort of thing the other and but again that was kind of it seemed to me to be fairly well neutralized by the defense because that was their argument that, you know, how is this guy going to benefit from her desk that you know she actually applied for it, And there was some testimony that Ryan was putting pressure

on her to get this life insurance. However, this didn't come out in trial, but I thought it was interesting. I found out later that the couple had met with a financial planner, and most people who've ever done that note that, you know, planning for unfortunately one person or the other dying is an important thing to take care of, and it was a benefit available through her work, so

that life insurance never took effect. The other thing that was raised again as a kind of a sliver of a motive during the case was Sarah's mother testified that she was out with her daughter once and that Ryan called her immediately after she made a purchase. I believe that Target. I don't remember if Sarah's mother said Target, but I believe Ryan told me that later, and friends told me this later, and kind of, according to the mother, gave her crap over. You know, hey, what do you

do and spend one hundred bucks at Target? You need a stene hundred bucks at Target. But that was couched as being a joke that a lot of people joke. A lot of couples or you know, women who like toff or whatever, say hey, I can't get out of Charget with I'll spend one hundred dollars. So again, was it him being controlling him, you know, kind of monitoring

her financial transactions, or was it instead just an innocent joke. Now, people who knew Ryan insisted that that was it was a joke, that Ryan was kind of a goofball personality and that that you know, Sarah would say jump and he would say how high he that? And she made more money than he did. So again they're saying, this makes zero sense that she makes more money and he's coming down on her for expenditures. So that was the only you know, they weren't able to really bring out

much of any motive. Now they're not required under the law the prosecutions that required to prove motive, but it sure helps the jury to justify a verdict.

was upset at a baseball game or something. But he was described as being one of the most passive and laid back that I heard that term laid back many many times as I did my interviews and as well as you know, the testimony of people who knew Ryan and Sarah would say that about Ryan, that he was very laid back, that Sarah would say, I want to do this, and he would just acquiesce because it kind of wasn't worth to him, are you In Plus, he, according to everybody, doated on her and just wanted to

please her was one of his primary missions in life. Yes, yes, dear, yes, dear. So quite a different portrayal from the people who knew Ryan than people who would look at that target expenditure, for example, and assume that he was a control freak.

always appreciate that. But one of the problems was when this case actually went before it went to trial, there was a gag order issued, so it prevented Charlie from even talking to me or anybody else off the record at that point. None of the players, Rachel Hustle, the police,

everything was clamped down at one point. But Charlie to this day has very strongly defended Ryan, and in fact, I was part of a when I did the launch of my book last year, he spoke out and said that he really strongly believes that some of the evidence that didn't come out during the trial should be released. So that was kind of to this day he stands by Ryan.

and talking about how innocent I am. However, I did later come to learn that even the most passionate defense from a defendant, a lot of times a jury may not tend to even care about that very much, because there does seem to be in a lot of jurors minds a tendency to think, well, this person if they sound polished because they're rehearsed, if they don't sound polished

and they stutter and stammer and they are upset and crying. Well, that's because they're guilty, and that's their guilty conscience showing up on the witness stand. So a lot of people were wanting to hear because there were a lot of missing, a lot of gaps in the whole storyline that it seemed like the lawyers were kind of trying to hint at through their questions, but what was Ryan's actual story?

And when he didn't take the witness stand, there were quite a few people who said that it was because he certainly must have something to hide, and I wasn't so sure of that. I thought that was quite possible, but I also thought it was possible that there might be some other explanation, and later I learned that there was.

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we are at the culmination of the first trial. Because there are as a story does not end at the first trial or the appeals, and certainly we've alluded to that in the introduction. So tell us what happens in this first trial, what did the what did you expect, what did the public expect? And then what happened? And tell us about the the charge that murder guilty of murder, but the aggravated murder. Tell us about that distinction.

the verdicts were read. It was one of the most visceral, powerful experiences I will never ever forget, and I know anyone else who is there would agree with it, because originally the courtroom was actually packed with Ryan's supporters, and in fact, I remember trying really hard to find anybody who was there for Sarah, which made me kind of said. But a lot of the people that were friends with Ryan and Sarah were very supportive of Ryan. They thought

he should be acquitted. And there were two charges that were available to the jury to decide. One of them was aggravated murder. Now aggravated murder under the State of Ohio law says that the person had some premeditation, even if it was only for a few moments. Doesn't have to be planned months in advance. And I've got poison or whatever the person you know it is. You know, you have an opportunity to kind of stop yourself, and then you don't. There's some premeditation, you think for at

least some time. It could be a momentary premeditation that you purposely kill another person. So that particular charge, the first verdict was on that charge and it was not guilty. The courtroom actually erupted in tears, like sighs of relief, and the judge put out his hand like stop to shush everyone, and then everybody was absolutely I remember my hands were shaking so hard I could hardly type. It was a very strange thing because I didn't have any

dog in this hunt. I didn't per se, you know, have any you know, feel like, oh, Ryan Woodmer should be convicted or when we should be acquitted. I was kind of puzzled and didn't really know what direction the jury would go because I found myself kind of going back back and forth like did he or didn't he? It was. It was a very I was on the edge, and I think a lot of people were that way.

And I also think though that because of that back and forth back and forth, that there were a lot of people who said, Okay, well maybe he did it, but they didn't prove it, so that that was a pretty strong sentiment among some people in the community. In fact, there was a poll uh later that that did show that most people thought Ryan should not have been convicted.

So when that second verdict was read and that it was guilty, the tears in elation that were literally a moment or two earlier just changed to this complete anguish. People were wailing and crying and that, you know, somebody shouted out small justice, and Ryan's uncle slammed open the courtroom door and like just burst out of the court in disgust, convict an innocent man, and there was just all these you know, it was an absolute cauldron of

emotion boiling over. It was I get chills even right now telling you about it, just being there in that room with those emotions flip flopping like a light switch. Unabsolutely unforgettable. And then when Ryan Widmer had the opportunity to address the court, it was absolute. People were just completely like hit in the gut. And that's how he appeared. He doubled over and then he said, I did not do this. I love He said it in present tense, which struck me. I love my wife almost as the

so he was in denial that she was dead. That's how I interpreted it, and that's how some other people interpreted it as well. I love my wife. I would never hurt her. And he was tearful and shaking his head, no, no, no, again. It was a courtroom verdicts are often emotional, but to have absolutely elation one moment and then flip flop into this anguish on the part of the majority of the people who were spectating there, that's pretty much unheard of

in my experience. It was absolutely incredible, unforgettable, sad, and it was even hard, like I said, for me to take notes and to send a message to my editor and say, Okay, put this out on Twitter. Here's what happened.

actually take it back. The trial was in two thousand and nine, so it was ten years ago this year that the trial happened, and jas had changed a lot in these ten years. Back then, it was a really big deal that one of the local TV stations started a live blog. So this guy in the court was sitting there typing in testimony a lot of verbatim, and he did it almost like a cult following, so a

lot of people. It was the first time I can remember in our, you know, area of the country, that that people had the opportunity to kind of real time follow a local case like this. And it was interesting because the judge forbade any live TV broadcast, so this was kind of a way around that, right, So there was one one TV camera in the courtroom and that it was by Dateline NBC, and they were required to share their footage with all the other local media each day,

but they were not allowed to broadcast live. So what happens after that is shortly after this verdict, one of the jurors, a guy named John first initial C, comes forward and says, something's been really bothering me. He actually kept a journal that he later shared with the court about his misgivings about the verdict and the way it happened. He actually revealed he ended up faxing Charlie Rickers, that defense lawyer, and saying, there's something I'd like to talk

to you about about the case. If you want to talk to me, you know, give me a call back. So he ends up talking the lawyer, of course, talks to the guy and he comes out and says, well, you know that instruction where the judges tell the jury that you're only allowed to decide this case based on what is presented in court, Well, I'm kind of concerned that maybe that rule was violated because some of the jurors did home experiments on how long it takes a body to air dry. Remember I told you about the

duryness of Sarah's body as observed. People wanted to know how long does it take a body to air dry? And so literally some of them would shower and and either allow themselves to drip dry, and reportedly at least one der ended up on the carpet, lying down and

trying to see how long it takes to dry. To see if Ryan's story and all of the events recorded on this nine one one call tracked with the dryness of the body as observed by those first responders when they first got there, and so one of the that this is pretty much an absolute no no. And although the prosecution fought mightily and there were months of court

battles that ensued after this. At least five hundred pages of documents were filed after this, and there were affidavits from some jurors saying that yes, this changed my vote, and other jurors saying, look, this was such a small part of the deliberations it didn't really even matter. And eventually though, this resulted in the verdict being thrown out. So now Ryan Woodmer is back in the position of being supposedly innocent until proven guilt. He's just now a

suspect again. He's no longer convicted. He ends up he was in prisoner for these first few months after the verdict, and then he's released on bond. And guess what the family had to pony up the money again because the first bond is now I'm all and void and over with, and they're just out that money. A lot of people don't know that that when you post bond, you just lose that money. It can't be applied to something again later, and you don't get that money back if the guy

shows up for trial. For example, it's just payment period. So then you know, some people thought, well, to you, will the prosecution even try to go to a second trial? And they were, oh, yes, certainly, we're going for a second trial. So that's what happened next.

was kind of a remarkable lady in my opinion. I didn't get to know her very well, but god, she ended up. She started out as a secretary at this one company, ends up becoming the vice president of marketing for an international company. So that's pretty impressive from a person who starts as a secretary. That's a person who has some hutzpah. And she fought mightily and absolutely defended her son. She just said, you know, I don't care.

She lived by our standards here. It was a pretty, very very nice home in one of the most upscale subdivisions in the region. It was over three hundred thousand dollars home. She re mortgaged that she got dipped into her own retirement and depleted all of it. She was willing to risk everything for her son because she absolutely

believed in him. What was very interesting too to me was the fact that even though Ryan's parents were divorced, both his parents described Ryan as being their favorite son. They said there was a sweetness to Ryan, which doesn't seem to track with convicted killer. So they both thought he was a very sweet person. So but then again, we've all seen people who seem to be very sweet on one side, and then on the other there's something

very sinister. So you know, again I didn't know these people at all, but I'm just telling you this is what was relayed to me. And I did find it to be significant that both parents, even though they had three children, for whatever reason, Ryan just endeared themselves to people. And he was kind of again a goofball kind of person who happy, go lucky, goofball personality that people who when they got to know him did seem to really like him.

us relied on him for commentary. There were other attorneys who were actually attending the trial who ended up providing some interviews for interview star reporters. And it was the second trial involved a new legal team, and a lot of people wondered why that happened. Well, part of it is because it's kind of, you know, in some ways it's hard to kind of second guess your own work. But I think that the trial actually just took a huge toll. In fact, I know it did on Charlie

Rickers's health. Even he fervently believed in Ryan's innocence and felt awful that he had somehow failed Ryan with that guilty verdict, and then when they were able to get that very overturned, he fell like, Okay, let's let someone else have a crack at this. I think that was the consensus of pretty much everybody involved on Ryan's side of it. So they the new set of lawyers, three lawyers, went you know, full on it tack mode against the

emergency responders. They really picked apart every single document, every mistake, every any little anything that just didn't seem consistent or seemed sloppy. They were hammering home those points. So and the prosecution, though, they saw some of the things that the and I know that they were following live blogs and they were following the comments from the public, and so that enabled them to kind of tighten up some

things that they were doing. For example, I believe that they got a different in fact, I know they got a different expert witness to talk about whether Sarah could have fallen asleep. And this was a person then who could talk not just about the alleged falling asleep as being preposterous, but about some other possible scenarios and an expert who could address not just the alleged falling asleep. Although again, the defense, I will say, never alleged that

Sarah fell asleep. They just said that was Ryan's supposition, that was his theory, his way of perceiving what happened. Again, if you believe that he's making a cover story for murder, that's one thing, or you might believe what the defense says, which is that he just perceived that she had possibly fallen asleep, because that's what she did. She fell asleep all the time. So both sides did tighten up their game quite a bit in that second trial, but it

actually got very heated and very contentious in there. It was a quite different nature, and I think that anybody who saw the two trials, it was very, very different in character. It was a lot more contentious.

It started to create a lot of doubt about the perhaps competency and or you know how observant some of these people really were. Things along those lines, just creating a lot of doubt, which is their job to poke holes in the prosecution's theory of what happened here. And the consensus was that maybe Ryan Woodmer would come out of this with a not guilty verdict, but that didn't happen.

to use the term windmred out. They were exhausted by the emotional rollercoaster of this case, and people followed it super closely, very very closely. And Ryan's reaction in this case he just said, well, obviously he didn't really say a whole lot at the end of this one, but some reporters caught him as he was walking away from the courthouse and he said, well, obviously I should have found not guilty. But I think that in his mind and in the mind of a lot of the supporters

and lawyers, that they were getting closer. They went from a guilty verdict to at least a hungury with some more people you know, in his or his corner, so to speak, among the jurors. And there was a big dispute about how many jurors actually would have been in his you know, willing to vote not guilty, because there was no actual vote taken, and there was a lot

of controversy and confusion over that. But what was very fascinating and very unusual several of the jurors that voted or would have voted if they had actually taken a vote,

a final vote that would have voted not guilty. Came to the third trial, and they actually had provided affidavits that were trying to discourage the prosecution from proceeding because, in the words of Wonder quote, it was like they gave us a bunch of crap evidence and said, you figure this out, because, as I mentioned earlier, the prosecution's theory about what happened here they offered several different Well, it could have been this, it could have been that,

could have been in the bathtub, the toilet sink. I mean, it went kind of all over, but then they ended up kind of settling on the bathtub. But still there were some jurors who said, oh, I think it happened in the toilet because only your head was wet, But there was no evidence presented about the toilet, which was so weird to me. How do you end up thinking that? Again, it was a very bizarre case in so.

trial because they're obviously more confident. Tell us what happens with those motions and those strategies to do that, and then the third trial again the players that are for defense and for prosecution with this third trial.

It actually later came out that a recommended follow up of that heart murmur, which was discovered when she was an infant, was never done. So again we have a bunch of question marks that can never be answered, like that one, did Sarah really have some kind of a heart issue because she was never If you don't have any kg a lot of heart issues are not a parent maybe with just a stethoscope for example, so it

could be, you know, some could be. But again there were no specific tests ever done outside of it at one EKG when she was a child, and then the EKG that was done, which unfortunately she was what they call flatline. She never ever regained a pulse while the paramedics were trying to you know, work on her, other than of course the compressions they do on her chest

during the CPR. So yeah, they did try to get some you know, say hey, look, you know, we don't believe because of these affidavits from these jurors that any jury could ever reach a verdict because of the state of the evidence here. There's just too many unanswered questions. But the judge didn't allow that. Then they also were trying to really attack that Lieutenant Detective Jeff Brayley that we mentioned at the very beginning of our talk today.

A lot of information had come out about his background that raised questions about his credibility, but the judge just would not allow that into the trial. So another very interesting thing, and this was not something that the defense fought for, but rather the prosecution offered Ryan Widmer a plea deal, and I didn't know this until later, and

he flat out turned it down. In fact, according to the people who were in the room with Ryan, when his lawyer his dad was there, I interviewed him, and the one lawyer was there, I interviewed him, and they said that the lawyer could barely get the words out. Hey, you know, hear me out. He's like, no, I'm not going to admit to something I didn't do. So some people would look at that as being compelling evidence that are not compelling evidence, that copelling fine, that perhaps Ryan

Wimer is really innocent. But then other people could look at that and say, hmm, I wonder if he thought he could just outsmart everybody and beat this. So again, they're just about everything in this case. Everything that looks one way, you flip it over and you can look at it almost as compellingly the second way.

there was people were just rampant with speculation. A lot of people thought it was a jail house snitched and that that Ryan Woodmer had somehow admitted, you know what he was in prison or you know, before he got out, after that verdict was overturned, you know, admitted to somebody or somebody else was speculating that maybe was somebody in his family and you know that he confided in And as it turns out, they kept this identity secret until

the trial. After the jury was actually selected and seated, there was a recess which then allowed the defense to check into the background of this witness, and they I later found out that they of course asked their client, who in the world could this be that, you know, the prosecution's alleging that you confessed to this person that you did this. He's like, I didn't confess, said no, boy,

no one, what do you mean? And so this witness comes forward and says that, you know, she testified it during a phone call that she's at her home in Iowa, and that Ryan Woodmer admitted that he killed his wife, and he sounded drunk and upset. So the defense puts on a witness who had spoken to Ryan. Ryan had

a phone called. Emails from across the country from a lot of these people are femal, and it makes it look like he's some kind of casanova, and that was how some of the local radio talk show hosts portrayed him. But as I got to know Ryan, he's pretty much I would not describe him that way. He again goofball

personality is closer than casanova. So you know, this other woman was on the phone with him in a call that concluded six minutes before the phone call where he allegedly confessed, and he was, according to her, neither drunk

nor upset. And then it comes out that this mystery witnessed actually was on methadone and had a history of some convictions for some minor offenses involving not being truthful, and so there were a lot of things that were raised as to her credibility, and the jurors that I spoke to universally told me they pretty much discounted everything

she said they did not find her credible. And it was interesting to me though that if you don't find this person credible and it's being coubted that this is almost like the star witness, doesn't that make you doubt the entire prosecution's case. But that wasn't what happened.

trial thirty hours, third trial. I'm putting my money on at least maybe forty hours because this was the longest trial yet, and each trial got longer and more complex, and I thought, you know, it's going to take them a long time to go through all this evidence, and you know, maybe they won't want reach decision for like forty hours. People were shocked when this story came back

in twelve hours and it was guilty. People were absolutely shocked. Now, there were some people that believed this witness, or at least thought it was unsavory that that Ryan was having communication with these various women across the country and that that didn't look good and maybe he was having an affair with his wife or something like that was going on behind the scenes, and so that that started to

fuel some more anti Widmer sentiment about Ryan Widmer. But it was just it was a very similar reaction to but there wasn't that same outburst that was that happened during that first trial. But Ryan responded again very similarly, shaking his head saying I didn't do this, you know, protesting his innocence, and he does to this day.

parameters on how this interview is going to go. He's not going to set the rules. So what are the rules that you set before you were going to interview him? The grounds on which you were to interview him, what does he agree to and tell us just a little bit about that interview.

allows us. And it became very interesting to me. This was the first time that I really had a chance to talk to Ryan because of the gag order. I think I had said hello to him a couple of times during the course of all this. It was almost surreal because obviously Ryan was somebody I saw every day for days on end during all three trials, and he saw me every day for days on end during the three trials, but we were never allowed to talk until this moment when I'm in visiting with him in prison

along with a photographer from the Inquirer. And one of the things that became apparent to me when you have one of those light bulb moments in life where you say aha. I had always wondered a little bit despite what I said about the fact that I know that there are valid reasons why someone might not testify, and there are also suspicious reasons why someone might not testify in his or her behalf. It became apparent to me

during this interview why Ryan didn't testify. When he stated to me, you can't jump to a gun like they did with me, I knew what he meant, and it wasn't just that there were several things like that. There was like a pattern or speech with Ryan that made it clear to me that he just doesn't present super well and that that kind of odd sentence structure would make some jurors wonder about whether he was being honest. Perhaps, and with his permission, I said, Hey, I would like

to talk to your lawyers. Will you give me a permission? He said yes, and I asked, and universally all of the lawyers said that that is why they did not put him on the witness stand, because he had a tendency to misspeak to correct himself, which this doesn't come across very well if you're on the witness stand, and he might stay right when he meant to say left. And I didn't have the impression that he had that

he's stupid or anything. I actually think Ryan Woodmurre is a fairly intelligent guy who was a pretty much a pretty good student in school from what I understand. But he's just one of those people for whom communicating isn't

necessarily verbally isn't their strong suit. I think that his communication has improved over the years, but at that time, the very first interview I did with him in twenty eleven, it was obvious to me that there were some communication glitches as I would like to call them, that would make him be not the best presentable witness, you know, just doesn't come across as being super polished. So and actually I kind of figured out in my own head that jumped to a gun he actually thinks so quickly.

I think that he will put together two phrases that are similar. For example, in that case, jump to a gun may have been the result of jump to conclusions and jump the gun melded together. That was the theory that I kind of developed after I noticed his communication patterns.

of it. As well. They have a case they believed in, there was no need to jeopardize it with him on a witness stand, and no need really in their minds to have him up there really anyway I want to exactly that.

this case. Is it possible that she may have suffered from some of the disorders, that there's one in particular that she has a lot in common with a cleft palate, low set ears, small lower jaw, and a possible heart rhythm disturbance which can be associated with drownings. According to the Neo Clinic, the first sign of this disorder and a family could be an unexplained drowning. But yet she was never tested for this disorder. Isn't that interesting? Yes?

Is there a Facebook page or website that people might go to for more information.

And I have just things of interest to people who have been following this case and the criminal justice system and changes in journalism.