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You are now listening to True Murder, The most shocking killers in true crime History and the authors that have written about him. Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker VTK Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host journalist and author Dan Zupanski, Good.
Evening from his cell on Death Row in Florida. Confess serial killer Danny Rowling started writing and illustrating this novel about the daggerman Secarius in nineteen ninety nine, seven years before his two thousand and six execution for the five
murders he committed. In nineteen ninety drawing on years of research, Rolling follows zoologist Sir Windsor Ashmole to the African island of Moritus to assist doctor Borgum Konoff in saving endangered species, but the doctor's dabbling in sinister forces, torturing the island's girls in a mad quest for immortality as an alien relic, gives him the superhuman powers of a cecarius. Caught in the act, Konoff escapes to Boston, where he goes on
a murder rampage. Ashmole helps police track him, but the power of the Relic is still protecting the elusive Secarius. As the powers that be close in on the crazed killer, a deal with the forces of darkness is broker by a witch whose name is cath a nod to the woman who served as Rollings muse in real life at
the time he dreamed up the tale. The novel was published in two thousand and two by Plot Digger Publications, a corporation owned by Canadian film maker Ryan Nicholson, who died in twenty nineteen without renewing the copyright, so the book was orphaned until twenty twenty two when Sondra London gave new life to this tale that Rowling had originally asked her to publish. The book that were featured in
this sevening is Sicarius. Sondra London presents Death Row Fiction by a Serial Killer, with my special guest, journalist and author and true crime author Sondra London. Welcome to the program, and thank you so much for this interview. Sondra London.
Oh, thank you, Dan, You're my favorite podcaster.
Thank you so much, Sondra London, and congratulations on this very very interesting book. Let's talk about right from the very beginning, you in the introduction call this warnings about free speech and the new normal, calls for warnings on anything that might offend anyone. You write about Securius was written by a serial killer on death row tell us why free speech is so important as actually in regards to this book.
Okay, well, I'm a free speech radical. I don't believe in any form of compelled speech or limited speech at all. So that's my personal bias. I've been punished in court,
had my life ruined over this issue. So I'm entitled to speak, and I speak about this book and introductory terms specifically because the world has changed so much since Danny Rowling wrote it, and there are forces at work in our culture that are demanding compelled speech and demanding that things not be said, the words not be used,
and I'm not going to honor any of that. I've published this myself because anytime a establishment publisher gets a hold of materials such as I've produced over the years, they want to they really want to censor it, let's put it that way, and it's not helpful. I think that censoring the thoughts and expressions specifically involving violence. I don't think that it accomplishes what they imagine it should,
it doesn't stop violence. Instead, it drives the violent impulse deeper into the darkness, and in the dark side of the personality is where all the powerful drives are that we lose control off. So the more that we are able to deal with things consciously and openly, at least we won't have these shadow impulses coming along from we don't even know where and causing so much trouble. So I think the impulse to censor all expression until it
is inoffensive is very wrong. And I think it's very very wrong when it comes to violence because at this point, violence is easy to commit at a distance and without any visceral involvement. And I believe that there's a lot of people who are seduced into committing violence because they don't realize what it means and what it does and what it does to themselves. And so I think if we really listen to people like Nanny Rowling who've been there and done that, there are things that they have
learned that we need to learn. We can't learn them. And we're not going to cross that fatal line and we're not going to break the law and become killers. But we would like to know what they learned from the other side, and the way you do that is by communication.
You write about transgressive writing that criminal behavior is transgressive for involves violating the boundaries of the social contract. Tell us about transgressive fiction.
Well, I'm just giving an official notice. That is very nature of this document. We are dealing with the behavior that crosses boundaries, and so please do not bring in an inappropriate censorship mindset to this book. If you don't like that, then just close that book sooner the better.
Tell us about your first book, death Row fiction.
My first book was Knocking on Joe Voices from Death Row, and I had set out in this Zene revolution. Remember in the eighties, I coached venes which were like a self published small magazines that you could order directly from the publisher. That was viens right, And so I was doing that and I had imprint called Media Queen. And
so this is gentleman. Paul Woods from UK writes to me and says, I want to become a publisher and I want to publish your stuff you published on your Media Queen, and I want to call it Knocking on Joe Voices from Death row because there's a Nick Cave song about it, and I'm like whatever. So that was the book. That was how it got published. Got published in England to very small circulation, but it made a big impact because in England no one's allowed to talk
to prisoners. Interesting, this book was full of all this inside baseball, you know, inside American prisons. So in England it was quite impactful.
You read about your next book, killer fiction with the serial killer's actual fantasies and false confessions. Tell us about that.
Gerard John Schaefer is where I started because I knew him when I was a teenager and he was a nice boy. I dated for a year, and it was nine years later that he hit the headlines as a serial killer. It was a roague cop of practice, seeing his homicidal line passes behind the badge, and we see in nineteen seventy three that he went to prison for life. And then the only thing that happened of interest to our story here is that we came up to nineteen
eighty eight. We'll just have to skip a lot, folks, because we only have a little time. So up in eighty eight, I was making a good living as a technical writer, consultant, but the economy was bad. So I was looking around and they executed Bundy, and all the news was about serial killers, and so I said, I knew a serial killer better than Anne Rule did, so let me just see if I can write a book about that. I thought it would just be, you know, a project, one of many projects, and I would go
on other things. But it was not to be. I started out with Schaeffer, and it's just that one thing led to another.
Tell us about the beginnings of the five years you spent with Danny Rowling. Tell us about the origins of your correspondence.
Listen, yea, how quick I can make this transition. So I'm working with Shaeffer. Along comes Bobby Lewis, who says I have better stories than Shaeffer. Published my stories, and he said, I escaped from death row and when they brought me back, they put me alone on death row with Ted Bundy. So I have these stories. So I'm like, oh, okay.
And so I worked on stories of Bobby's for about a year or so, and then when they brought Danny Rolling in after he'd been charged with five murders that he had committed nineteen ninety they put him with Bobby Lewis, and Bobby Lewis showed Danny Rowling the screenplay I had written about Bobby Lewis's escape from Depth row It was called Redbone, and it's a great story, but I don't say so myself. But Danny Rowling saw that script, Redbone, and he said, whoever wrote this, I want them to
help me write my story. And he wrote to me and asked me to help him work on his story with him.
Now, ideally you would have wanted to visit with him personally. That didn't happen. Tell us why and how was this book written and how did you collaborate between you?
Naturally, everyone knew that we wanted this pation. So therefore that was used to manipulate Danny Rowling, the fact that that's what he wanted. And so it's a long story, quite a long story, and really beyond the scope of a few minutes together here. But the desire to visit was manipulated by the State's Attorney's Office Number one, number two.
Danny Rowling had death wish and you want he was guilty and he wanted to be executed and to pay for his crimes and Danny Rowling insisted that I cooperate with him and the State's Attorney's office to ensure that he'd be executed. Now this is the story you will hear about my role with Danny Rowling. You won't hear it because of certain reasons that were timely at the time. But now I can talk a little bit more about
really happened there. Our desire to visit was used to coerce a confession from Danny Rowling that led to his execution. Both Danny and I were very frustrated and found it very difficult to work together. But look unintended consequences, y'all. That's what made the story I have so rock solid, because every single thing isn't writing and it's in his words.
You don't have to rely on me going into a visit, not allowed a pencil, not allowed of paper, much less a tape recorder, talk to him for eight hours, and come out and try to write about it. Okay, you don't have that with this case. Absolutely you have is it had to be in his own words, and that makes it all the more authentic. The forces that were posing Danny Rowling and myself didn't want any good at all to come out of our interaction, but their very efforts to stop it made it better.
Now, tell us about your writing coach, you as a writing coach, and how you introduced him to the world of self expression. He had told you about his songs. He was very proud of the songs he had written. Tell us about this introduction into the world of self expression. Why did you do this, what did you believe you might gain from this? Tell us about this project?
Okay, I had come off or let's said, started with John Shafer. John Jafer had a degree in creative writing along with criminal justice. He wasn't as smart as me, but compared to your average prisoner, he was the regular Einstein, and he was very creative and prolific in expressing himself in writing. Then you're Bobby Lewis, a high school drop out but mister personality and had a winning way with words, very fluent and easy. And then your autist Toole, who
was illiterate and required a whole different approach. And so then came Danny Rowling. And Danny Rowling's problem was that he was psychologically in very poor condition. And he says himself, he's had dozens of shrinks plowing through his mind, and they all come to different conclusions. But you can just say that he was very mentally ill, and he was a trauma veteran. He had been abused since before he
was born. It's on the record witnessed and sworn that his father kicked that pregnant abdomen, that his father strangled that pregnant woman and threw her downstairs. So the abuse on Danny started before he was even a real baby. So he had in some no self esteem and he didn't have enough self esteem to express himself. And his very first record though, he was so excited about a tape he had made with songs on it that that was in his very first introductory letter to me. I
have this tape. I can't wait for you to hear it. And so that was a that went on and on and on, but just to say that's how important it was to Danny Okay, that he had reached out in this way to the world to express himself and that he wanted to share that with me immediately. So as we went along, we started working and asking him prompts and working back and forth and showing him better ways to get across the things that he was trying to
do interactively. And there was a little sentence that I thought was kind of cute that I've put excerpted for the Making of a Serial Killer, Reese, and look where it comes to writing, and you're like a Ferrari and I'm more like a go cart that you know, it was funny, but that was true. But he handled it in the best way possible, and you know, to laugh at himself and to continue to improve it was It's like bringing water for the first time to a plant
that had been wrongfully thrown into the desert. And the way that he grew with his skills was just it was gratifying to me, okay, working with him, but it was also quite astonishing. I mean, you just really wouldn't believe the human creature would be capable. When I first started with him, he could barely write a letter, and by the time we got to the point four, about four and a half years later, he wrote his confessions,
The Murder Confessions. He wrote twenty twenty three page documents that didn't require a single change in a coma of phrase nothing. They were published exactly as he was able to come to terms with being able to do it now with his art work again. It was heartbreaking to see how all this talent was married. And he'd be writing a letter along and then he would burst into pictures like you know on a play where they burst
into song, right, would burst into graphics. And to start, you know, he's writing words and then he's it's a picture and everything, and I'm like, and then he draws really good ones, and then I'm like, Danny, you're an artist. Now what I want you to do? And you want to draw a picture, Take a page all by itself, draw the picture, sign it and date it, okay, And like a dream student, he'd just suck that right up, and anyone who asks anything from Danny Rowling knows that
it's dated and signed. He'd put his initials on the bottom of every one of the five thousand pages of letters that he sent me once I gave him that instruction, and then he began because he could see himself reflect fit in my eyes, and he could see the value there, and that gave him the confidence to go ahead and try things. And that he wouldn't dare. He wouldn't dare do anything. He was like a huddled up, little dry shell of a person. It's a drawing he did of
a tree. Half of it is dead, the other half is haunted, and the only animation is a tiny, little, tiny little face about as big as a baseball at the heart of the tree. And that's how his true spirit had to hide from the constant trauma that had been visited upon him. So that was a condition he was in, and so the work that we did was
able to just rehabilitate his condition. In general, and of course, being incarcerated I think is healthy because you have a regular schedule, you have regular food, you have a place to sleep, and everything is predictable, well everything, of course, but you know what I mean. And so a person doesn't have to make a lot of decisions and maybe
foolish decisions. And so I think I've seen a number of cases whereas after the person is taken into custody, after about sixty days there they are stable enoughter where they can a real personality. He's able to be exhibited.
Right, tell us what the secarious title, where it comes from, Where it's derived from, Where likely Danny Rowling had read about it or heard about it.
Okay, we're talking about the Middle East there, and that area would cover many countries at this point, but broadly in the Middle East. There was a word sicca as i CII would spell it in English, but it crossed both your Hebrew and your sandsprit and various language Rootstika means a knife, okay, means something you stick with, hold it in your hand and stick somebody with it time and time again. That was called a cicca. So were you to go on Google and search the word sicca,
the pictures that would come up would look different. That merely speaks to how broad this phenomenon was. That you looked different in different times in places, but they are sicca. So here's how this came down. This was when the Romans conquered the Jews and they occupied Jerusalem. Okay, many of the Jews fought this occupation, and they were called Vella. They were very vellous about fighting to keep Jerusalem Jewish. The sekari I were the first to cloak and dagger assassins.
They wore a cloak and they carried asika, and they a sicarius would go into the marketplace, a crowded venue, maybe in the temple, where there are many people bustling up against one another and pull dagger out and stab the victim, and then further ends to pretend to be scared and run away. Everybody runs away and it's all confusing and they never get caught. The thing that made them different from Zella's was the Sekarii. There at Masada,
we're killing collaborators. Okay, they were killing the Jews who were going along with the occupation. So that's what differentiated them from the Zoahs. Today we hear the word sicario used in pop culture because it's used in Latin America and it means the same thing, an assassin stabber. Now, where did Danny Rowling get the idea of secari eye
in the first place, kind of an exotic word. Well, we will point out that Paul the Apostle mention the Secarii and the Book of Acts, so it's quite possible that that's where he first heard the word.
Now you talk about Secarius when you were his writing coach and his editor and encouraging his artwork and the inclusion of that in this story. Did he tell you why he chose the title Secarius?
No, he never did. He just wrote it to me. This is something starting to write now called Secarius, and I didn't know what it meant. I had to look it up.
So tell us more about this process of encouragement and this writing coach and the development of this story.
Okay, so you remember we were working together, collaborating by correspondence in order to do this book. I was sued before the book was written, so that mistake could threaten me to stop, stop, don't do this. And as I pointed out to them, I'm not doing this for the money. I'm doing this because you're telling me not to and I'm not going to allow you to do that. That this is my project. And they said that they were going to seize my profits before it was even written,
and that's you know, that's not lawful. You might be aware of that, but that was what was done. So we proceed working in that manner, disregarding all the difficulties that were being put upon us in that way. Meanwhile, be any World and continued to petition for visitation, and we continued to go through an elaborate rigmarole every time, with new made up rules and new made up reasons and all that. At one point they said that okay, we were friends, but our friendship was not leading to marriage.
So that's why they would refuse us visitation. So we consulted among ourselves and said, okay, it needs to make marriage, and then they had another new rule, right, so it never ended. During the time I was working with him, he became very wise about what I meant about an
exclusive story. He saw all the suffering I was going through because I was working with him, and he became more and more compassionate of my position and very very protective of his own story in order to keep our project going, and because it had to be exclusive, and that put him in another kind of isolation because he
was by me, he was correspond with anyone. And once we got the confessions written, once we got Making a Serial Killer published, then there came a day where the warden came to Danny Rowling's cell, which is very very rare, but he did and told him he might as well give it up because he was never going to see me. And at that point Danny Rowling conceded the battle and said he was going to have to just give this up,
this exclusive arrangement. So at that point we both said, okay, you can write anyone, you can do anything you want. You're free no obligation to me. He still had an obligation to me regarding the murder confessions up in Louisiana, which he respected until the moment of his execution. He gave me those confessions and he would not give them to anyone else, although he did, for the record admit his guilt, but he did not give the full twenty three page account of what happened there and went on
in his mind. I still have that he gave it to me, okay, So he had a complete respect for our relationship, but he was corresponding with other people. So then during that period was when he wrote to me about Secarious. It said in his letter, when I get done, i'll send it to you. But because of the pressures going on behind bars, and we have no idea what that's like, you know, living at the pleasure of status, in power and things you can't say, there are things
you can't say. So one thing and another happened, and the manuscript wound up in the hands of an individual who's well known to be of low character. His same as Tim Carning And I'm not going to say anything libelous. It's all through story. He had that manuscript to Secarius on his website for sale for five thousand dollars or years.
And I don't know what happened to that manuscript. And Ben Carnig is the same individual who put out a story that Danny Rowling was gay and that he had love letters from Danny Rowling to these others inmate was it's not true. And I had the classification officer in charge of the whole fair confirmed to me that this alleged gay lover of his had never even been on the same wing as Danny Rowling. But Ken Carnig was running up and down the world telling everyone Danny Rowling
was gay. And so at that time when that was going on, I'm going to read you what Danny Rowling had to say about King Carnig. King Carnig said, Danny on right the day for Christmas in nineteen ninety six, and give himself a hydrochloric acid in amu. For all I care that lion piece of gutter slime. I wouldn't dirty a blade on him. The only reason that Punk runs his mouth is because he can feel secure that I'm paged on Florida's death row How would low life if I could get my hands on him, I'd beat
him to death. Okay, So that's how Danny Rolling felt about the person who held this book prevented it from reaching our listeners and our readers. That was Ken Coronick. So somehow or another, the book, the book's contents, wound up with a man who did special effects makeup out of Canada. He published it and then very very very
small circulation and then died. And then so as I was moving around the world, I kept asking these collectors and fans, anyone know whatever happened to that book Secarious, And all through the years everyone said they didn't know, but they were looking for it too. So it just became up to a gentleman by the name Wade Gardner who was kind enough to send me his very very very rare book. So that enabled me to bring this to print at last.
You say there was considerable work that you had to do, and you talk about that incredible work and using software and restoring the art and the original text and daunting, daunting project that you had.
It was this book crudely printed on paper that had yellowed, and the print had you know, faded to gray, so it was sort of between the orange page and the gray print and the art org was degraded. But fortunately Wade had his hands on the original artwork and he provided me with high resolution scans to use for the book. Instead of scanning the way it was printed in that tiny, little paperback book, I was able to get good, strong images.
And then I also included in this book that I put out fifty or more other images from my collection of Danny Rowling's art org. They were not in the original.
You right that this is offered. This book is offered for you to use as as you have, for others to use as you have, as a glass to peer into the mind of the homicidal maniac. Brought it forth by hand, word from word from a dungeon at the dead end of murder Road. And you say, although the genre is fiction, it's provenance is all too real.
Yes, well, I'd like to analyze that, basing my analysis on a commonplace observation by Sigmund Freud he relied on when he did his psychoanalysis of dreams. According to Freud, it was productive for him and his patients to go over their dreams and think about every person that was
in the dreams some part of their own self. So I wanted to take that approach when looking at the characters that were brought work in this fiction by Danny Rowling, and also look at even current day psychological practice treating children with a sandbox therapy where you put the child at a sandbox with an infinite array of little figures and toys, and the therapist just kind of watches as the child makes up dramas with the figures and acts
them out. Because there's more to telling the truth than just words. And I don't believe that you can do anything without revealing who you are every gesture. That's why we have grapho analysis to look at your handwriting and go from that to who you are. And you know it can be a nonsense, but you know there are also corporations to employ graphal analysis for applicants, so it's
not at all invalid to take this approach. Literature, we have a thing called a fallacy, which means it's like a pitfall you could fall into, called the intentional fallacy, where the earnest to a student of literature is not to try to plumb the intentions of the author, but to allow the work to stand on its own two legs and leave the author out of it, because I think they come up with that fallacy because I think it's only natural to look at a work of art
and to wonder what in the world was the artist thinking when they did that. But where caution is students of literature not to practice that, because it's a fallacy. So let me explain to your audience. And I'm aware of that, and now we're going to do it anyway if you don't mind. Absolutely, I think it's useful, and the other reasons is very useful. It is because they Rowling literally had multiple personalities, and you can quibble over that on your own time. You didn't have to deal
with him day after day, year after year. And a person who really has multiple personalities, it's just a part of them, and Danny Rowling did so there. So when we come to the characters that he lays out here, I can explain to you how each character would exemplify an aspect of Danny Rowling in a way that helps us understand him and the terrible loss of control that ruins so many lives that he experienced. Just to start with this analysis, I want to go into the very
idea of knife crime. The dagger man, why did he choose to title it and to focus it on the use of that particular weapon, the knife. Okay, so if it was just about murder, just about anything would do, so long as the target was rendered dead, right, But no, there's something about a knife for Danny Rowling. And I find myself once again quoting from what he wrote for me in the Making of a Serial Killer, and so pointing, and I just really want to share it with you,
Danny says. I'll say this much. Once a knife's blade has tasted human flesh, it becomes transformed from mere metal and leather to an entity which thirsts for more and more blood. In fact, it even smells different, sweeter, the sickening sweet smell of power to take life word out on its tempered edge.
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dot com slash true murder. You just quoted from Danny Rowling and the power and the importance of the knife in this secarious story and in his crimes, and we were talking about his disassociative identity personality disorder, and these fragmented character of Danny Rowling at the time that you had met him, and all of the characters that you said you experienced in this five years of collaboration with Danny Rolling, tell us about the basic premise of this
plot and some of the characters that he introduces.
Okay, well, the camera if you will, and the first person speaking is a character that he calls Sir Windsor Ashmole the third and you know, he is a little bit like Dickens in that the names he chooses allude to certain qualities. This one alludes to a higher class. First all, he's a thirst so that's something. But Windsor he supposed a w I in se er, I know that he knows it's Windsors. The Royal Windsors is wy and d. But he's supposed at Windsor, so that brings
it in the association to Winsing Mincing. Okay. So he is a proper, a proper person with a secure position, a good education, Okay, very privileged, but essentially he's moral person who's trying to do the right thing. Now, if we compare that to Danny Rowling. Of course he's not privileged, but he was capable of the kind of scholarly introspection that is required to write a book, because after all,
he did. And so in that sense he even become stable enough within himself that he could be familiar with that kind of personality within himself, someone who could be a reliable narrator and carry the plot forward. Okay, so that's I'm not saying that's the Danny Rowling who cut of girls had off. Do you understand right, Okay, that in this disorder, those different personalities do not blend, do not mix, do not know each other, and frankly don't
like each other. So try to remember that so that this character is are really our men carry is the pivotal point telling the story. But it's a good thing he's a little dull because that puts more contrast on the main character, the real interest. And he starts out as introduced as a doctor borgum Kana kind of name is that no one's ever been named that? I what does that remind me of? Boris Carlos? Yes, absolutely, And so I'm thinking Danny's reaching around for a sound that's
gonna sound connor like a big most guy. Uh and he comes up with this doctor borgam Kanna. Okay, so this is a really the criminal side of Danny rolling. I don't mean the murderer, but the robber will gun swinger, running around taking all kinds of crazy risks and on his motorcycle and all that kind of stuff. And that would be the other side of Danny's personality, that would be borgham Kana. But there's more to boredom Kanna because he is a multiple personalities scene. And then in the
book he is going mad. When we start the book, he's right on the edge of losing it. Okay, He's been torturing girls and he's getting caught and he isn't handling it well and he's misbehaving. And then he jumps on a plane and escapes from Mauritius, the island Kingdom, and goes to America. By the time he gets to America, he's no longer bored fun Off. He's doctor Victor Grigory, and he also is a phony and he pretends to be respectable, a veterinarian. Okay, he uses that social credit
to get by he come to America. Now, compare that to what Nanny Rowling did by robbing grocery stores and banks, filling Hiss with a lot of cash. He was playing the free wheeling tourist in Sarasota, Florida with a new identity and passing himself off as a respectable person. So that is really what this Grigory is. Still the same guy. I remember, right, he's known as Gregory, doctor Gregory. That's what he was doing in America. He's passing himself off.
Now you look at the all right, he the mythological, fantastical, science fiction level supernatural abilities that emerge from him is Secarious. Okay. So Secarious is like a spirit that comes out of doctor Knoff of Grigory, that character, all right, And in so doing, you compare that to Danny Rowling housing a murder demon that he called Gemini. Yes, now, in the book Secarious, the supernatural spirit has some very flashy powers
that he uses. In the true story of Danny rolling Jimi, he attributed the powers to Gemini that were very trivial. And the example is when he went to the first door in Gainesville and tried to open it. It didn't open, and so he prayed the Gemini and said, okay, Jemini, you really want me to do this, then open this door. So then when he tried it again, it came right open. So he said, well that proves it. Say that's the
way the psychotic mind will work. But at any rate, that was how Danny thought of Gemini, and he felt that Gemini was some alien spirit that took advantage of his broken hand mind to invade and to will his puppet flesh to do evil things. Okay, so it's out of his control. Now. I mentioned earlier that flashy aspect, high risk aspect that was he called Enad. Inad is the word Danny backwards, kay, But he distinguishes Ad that is a pretty rough guy. Inad is the guy who
knew how to do time. Quite frankly, he little Danny was not the kind of person who could handle being in jail. Little Danny is curled up somewhere, completely silent inside, and Inad walks the yard like a man. Okay, So that's Inad. But Gemini he has uneasy relationship with. So that's the comparison I make to the character that from which the murdered demons Curious emerges in a similar way.
Okay, insecarious there are elements of Frankenstein, it seems. With the electrodes attached to the women's temples, Yeah, you create this different character. Yeah, But throughout this entire story he seems like a decent writer, a very good writer. But the immaturity of the sexual relations in the book is noticeable. Yes, and it does demonstrate something about Danny Rowling and how he views women, especially because he has all the freedom in the world to write about them anyway he wants.
Yeah, because because I gave him that freedom, and so that's why. And so that's the only way you're going to find out what's in there. You can't be standing their wagon your finger. Oh no, No, that's naughty. You can't say that. You know, you have to say I respect your standing as someone who's committed heinous, horrible crimes people can't even imagine. And you are sitting there facing your execution for this. You were sitting on death row
in the worst neighborhood in the world. Everybody around you is crazy and homicidal, and there you are. I respect that you.
But what I'm saying is that it's very interesting that how his attitudes towards women. Ultimately, this murderer of women, revealing his attitudes in this book and the absolute immaturity that he has about sexual relations itself. He's talking like he read he had only read Penthouse Forum back in the day, and that's how he understands the relationship with a woman.
Yes, it wasn't just women. Going back to making a serial killer, he relays out he thought maybe joining organized crime would be a good idea at one point, and that was just the carnival. It's just the clown show where he tried to get in with the mafia and really fell on his butt like a bozo, and he reveals that he just didn't know how to act.
You write about some of the things that he had said later Danny Rowling had said about his experience as a killer. There was some controversy and about whether he had accidentally killed Krista Hoyt or that it was a lucky cut, but he explains exactly what that was about.
Oh, those experts really were in a tizzy over this case, and there were a lot of careers that were ruined because it was Keystone Cops. From the very beginning, Danny Rowling and stood up in the middle a broad daylight Stritcher's shirt off, took a big honking pistol and ran to a bank, screaming everybody did, vaulting over the counter, smashing the camera with his gun, give me all your money.
He goes okay, making a huge spectacle of himself as a gunman robbing a bank, and in that very same night, the very same guy is creeping around in the dark with a knife committing sex crimes against females who are at home in bed. Now, the science of profiling might as well just go home and take a nap, because they cannot make head nor tails out of that, you see.
And the reason is because he's multiple personality. That was a different personality who committed those two very very different types of crimes.
You're writ in this book that he was raised with some type of religious background, but sense of that, and he was religious at for a time anyway, And throughout the story there is this again struggle between good and evil. He still has that within his mindset, doesn't he He was.
Very religious and up until his death, when he died, he was singing a song of thanks and praise none greater than the Oh Lord. Okay, he never his religion was never far from his very very deep commitment. And I think going to his analysis of the figures in the book when I talk about the law enforcement figures, because it's we find out that he Danny roll In. In the center of Danny Rowling, he has a respect for the law and a respect for the proper behavior
and for honorable behavior. So he has created a character the FBI special agent that he is the ultimate good guy caught. And then you have a couple of other policemen in there that are for comic relief, they're idiots' rules. And then you have a bureaucrat cop that sits on the top and doesn't do anything. But in all those police you never have a James Harrold Rowling, the giant with the big stick, the making of the serial killer.
There is no character like that among the law enforcement officers, okay, which is really noticeable with the dogs that didn't bark. And if you pick those in the conglomerate of all of his characterizations of those in law enforcement, you would find that part of Danny, who would have been just delighted to have been a cop, to enforce the law, to be responsible for correcting people when they committed these crimes. Remember, he came to me wanting to be killed for what
he'd done. He did not come to me proud of it or happy about the situation. He was very, very religious, and it was not a posed. It was the central fact of his life. But if there is a if this troubles the listener to try to wrap their mind around the evil behavior along with the worship of godly qualities,
I would have to direct them to Romans seven. And I'm not going to sit here in a quote scripture, but in Roman seven, which is something Danny Rowland grew my attention to the sinner, the bad guy bemoans the fact that he loves the law, he loves God, and that's what he wants to do, and yet his behavior is bad. And that is the peculiar situation of the sinner that believes in right righteousness but finds himself the one doing unrighteousness. Okay, that is Danny's rollings existential pernundrum.
That justus has an opportunity to stuff for a second for these messages.
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You talked about this respect that throughout this story, it seems for law enforcement, but also that we didn't mention that his father was a police officer and he was traumatized by an event that even though he was attacked then as a child, later as an adult, he cites a particularly traumatic event where his father in the squad car in uniform. He was sleeping and he came into his house and gave him a savage beating which he.
Jumped on him. Dan he was sound asleep in bed with a knife, jumped on him, put a knife to his third.
But despite all of this, he still said that he loved his father, that there still was that despite this trauma, despite nothing but horrible childhood memories. He still loved his father, so this respect for law enforcement seems to be theming from that.
That's why he was a divided person. That's why it was not well mentally. Okay, the people that you meet, and most of you will never meet anyone whose personality is completely divided. Most of you will never meet anyone. But if you do, you only meet one part of them anyway till you go your way, and you'll never know the difference. It takes prolonged exposure to a person to really realize how profound this condition is. And fortunately it's very rare that you jumped to the part where
James Harold attacked him with a knife. But if you don't mind going to the precursor to that, yes, because there is a concept that everyone should study up on called epigenetics. Epigenetics we know how our DNA carries traits from one generation to another. Epigenetics is the new twist on that where we're learning how the events of our lives change the messaging that's carried by that DNA, and when the child inherits that DNA, they're inheriting messages that
it came through the life experience of their sire. Okay, so we have to go back to Danny Rowling's sire. His name was James Harold. Okay, James Harold Rolling. When he was a little boy, sitting at the dinner table with his family, his grandfather got up and hut his grandmother's throat right there at the table, yes, and filled her right in front of the family. Now, listen, when someone does something like that, they are not just committing murder.
They're not just ending the life of the victim. They are transmitting a message. Okay. They are using that knife to cause fear. Okay, that is terror rison, that's what we call terror vison calling it causing fear. So this is how the knife is used and Danny's DNA messaging. Okay. Because James Harold never let the family forget it. James Harold would take out his gun and waited and say I'm gonna get you. Or he'd take that knife and he'd flip the blade out and needs slide down and
he'd said, somebody open, just like that. This is the way he talked to his family. He used the knife and would constantly remind him about how his grandfather cut his grandmother's throat and went to prison for the rest of his life. Okay, so those are as deep, as traumatic and as significant as they can be when it comes to a knife man, the secarious after all his life of crime and all the things he did, the term is secarious. It's about the knife.
Yes, it's interesting. The character the servant girl and this flat theme about pituitary gland seems smacks of bathory and supposed motive that again she is killing young servant girls to gain immortality.
To recapture the youth she saw she saw slipping away.
But also the name of that one woman, that servant girl was Seka, which has a reference to Secarius and the knife as well.
Yeah, it's full of little Easter eggs like that. But if you don't mind, deliver a little bit of a spoiler, because it's interesting and people may not want to read the book, but they may want to think about this. Absolutely at the end, at the very end of the book, I talk about the characters, as I mentioned that they're
all fictional. Okay. The only character and here is real, was a woman named Kap and Kath really was Danny Rowling's girlfriend, and she really was a Saicanic witch, and that was what she called herself, and that is how she presented herself, and that is how Danny Rowling saw
her as a Satanic witch. Okay, So I know that one of the most profound parts of Danny was his spiritual commitment to his Lord and Savior, and that he knew he was facing the end of his natural life, and that he told me many times that he wanted to clear the slate. He didn't want to go to
his maker without confessing to everything he had done. Now, when I read this book and I see what this character that is one of his surguts, has done in the pages of this fictional scenario he contrived, it makes me wonder if Danny Rowling has found a way to put that confession on the record in the way that it is encrypted as fiction. I knew the young lady cath and we talked on the phone and we corresponded.
I never met her in person, but there was one occasion where Cap told me that Danny Rowling had not told me everything that happened at the Christa Hoyt murder scene, and that it was much worse. She said, it went much further, and I just took her comment. I did not probe, and she never said another thing. Missus Cath disappeared off of the Internet after her work was done, and I had not heard from her since then, and I wish that she would contact me and see if
she would share with me what Danny told her. But here's the suspicion I put in the pages of this book in my reflections. But Danny Rowling was afraid to tell me that he had eaten human flesh because he was afraid that I could not tolerate it and would abandon him. And my company was the give that I
brought him right. So now I wonder that when he had a companion who was admittedly a Satanic witch who held rituals invoking the presence of Lucifer, that maybe that made him believe that she would still accept him if she knew he had eaten human flesh. So I opened the door on the very last page to wondering what really happened to the pituitary gland of Krystal Hoyd. And guess what It's going to be an unsolved mystery because that topsy is sealed.
Wow.
I called his lawyer and told her I just really wanted to know if I could find out if her pituitary was intact, and she said it could not be done, that the autopsy was sealed.
Fascinating. I want to thank you Sondra London for coming on and talking about Secarius. Sondra London presents Death Row Fiction by a Serial Killer. Tell us about any social media you do, and if you have a website, tell us how people might find out more about books that you have written, and this book in particular.
I wish everybody we'd go to my website, and that is Sondra London dot com s O n d R l O n d O in Sondra London dot com. I have so much content on there that you can read, and on each one of those items that concern us one of my books, you will find a link that says buy this book and that will take you to Amazon.
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Sondra London. Secarius. Sondra London presents Death Row Fiction by a Serial Killer. Thank you so much for this interview. It's been a fascinating time speaking with you. Thank you so much for this interview, and good night