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You are now listening to True Murder, The Most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them Gasey Bundy, Dahmer, The Nightstalker BTK. Every week another fascinating author talking about the most shocking and infamous killers in true crime history. True Murder with your host, journalist and author Dan Zupansky.
Good Evening. This is your host Dan Zupanski for the program True Murder, The most Shocking Killers in True Crime History and the authors that have written about them. Victoria Redstell is a glamorous model, actress, filmmaker, and investigative journalist who has spent years visiting high security prisons and interviewing sadistic killers like Gary Ray Boles and Keith Hunter Jefferson,
the Happy Face Killer. These hardened killers have opened up to her in a way that they would never do to psychiatrists, prosecutors, or other authority figures, and have as a result, revealed terrifying chapters of their lives that might otherwise have stayed hidden forever. In this chilling book, she shares every detail and insight, bringing the reader up close and very personal with some of the most dangerous and
disturbed serial killers that the world has ever seen. The book work profiled this evening is serial Killers up Close and very Personal, My Death Row Interviews with the most dangerous men on the planet with my special guest journalists and act journalist and author Victoria Redstell. Welcome to the program and thank you for agreeing to this interview. Victoria Redstell, thank.
You for having me, Dan, Thanks so much.
It's a big thrill, is very very interesting book. Let's get right to probably the question that most people have asked you or probably been asked as many times, and I think our audience is interested as well, especially with your background, why were you interested in writing this book? And moreover, why were you, with your background, interested in interviewing some of the most dangerous men on the planet, serial killers, convicted psychopathic killers. Why were you interested in this endeavor?
Well, I would say when I was eleven years old in England, we had very close family friends that were actually murdered by mass murderer and another family was also murdered, a family that I didn't know. This has discussed very profound effect on my psyche at such a young formative age that it shocked me, It upset me, it toward
my heart and my emotions when I was eleven. From then I started to study books and use paper articles and magazines and shows, and I found the most bizarline set in the world is that all a mass murderer, a serial killer. And I found it to be horrible but also very interesting because it's so hard to understand.
Right now, how did it? How did for this book itself? You've picked five notorious maybe not completely well known, but very notorious killers. What is there was a criteria for the book in terms of the people you chose. I mean you went in and interviewed these people. So but tell us how you came to interview these five people, or pick these five people, or have these five men cooperate with you. How did it come about for these five subjects of your book?
Well, I probably started out with about twenty people that I'd read about, heard about, or seen on television or whatever it was. I studied them on the internet and if they have killed at least three people with downtime in between, or convicted of that, that makes them a serial killer. And I wanted to focus my first book or my main book that I was doing on my own on serial killers, not mass murderers, and nothing else. So I wrote to about twenty, so you have to
understand it's a numbers game. Not everyone responded. Maybe about eight responded, and then a few I got bored of or I fell by the wayside. They're saying they're innocent. There's some that interested me more and some that didn't. And what it really is, it was all down to can I fly out to that state, can I get them on camera? Can I go on their visiting list? What's the protocol with that particular death row or prison?
And it was basically the five people I chose, which took me just over a year to fill that up, and then I wrote a book. And I also I've got them all long camera, so I've also got hard drives filled with exclusive interviews or possible future television shows. So that's why I chose those five. But really I probably chose about twenty.
Incredible. Now, just before we start, name the five subjects, and then we'll go probably in ch chronological order, just like your book, because there's probably good reason, and there is good reason why you start with who you start with. So tell us the five subjects, introduce the five subjects that are in your book.
Okay, I'll try so many of these serial killers because I'm writing a current book as well. So with the book that you're specifically talking about, it would be Wayne adam Ford, Keith Under Jefferson's, Gary Ray Bowles, Bobby Joe Long, and Robin Gex And yes there is an order. And the reason why Wayne adam Ford is number one is because he's actually the very first serial killer that I ever met in the flesh, and he was somebody I
wanted to create a documentary on. I found him to be highly interesting because he had a conscience enough to turn himself in from remorse, and that to me, I'd never heard of it all my studies, all my life. So I found his story not only very redeeming and him as a person redeeming, but also there was a victim that never was identified. So with those two main bullet points of this person's makeup and story, I thought
I cannot just create a book on him. I can actually go out there and create TV documentary And that was my original plan, and there was a lot of restrictions with the Sam Beernardino jail, not allowing Camerton, and then him go to death row again not allowing Camerton. So I had my moments in the courtroom. I spoke to him every day on the telephone, and I built
up footage enough where I could compile. I thought to make a documentary that didn't quite work out, so instead he became chapter number one of my book.
Well let's lose that as an introduction to Wade adam Ford and tell us about this. This is an incredible case, incredible killer. Tell us about Wade atam Ford, and especially tell us how your correspondents start with that, How you began corresponding, What was the tone of your course, your initial correspondence to him to try to convince him that you were a journalist and it was in his interest to be able to speak to you and that he could trust you. How did you go about doing that?
Well?
I actually.
Went after waiting forward because he was the only serial killer in the vicinity of La southern California.
That I could actually meet.
Because there's so many few people in California that are usually all on death row or life in prison. I wanted to start in the county or in a surrounding County where I lived. I wanted him to trust me, but I didn't want to give him my name because I didn't want myself to go on camera. I wanted to be behind the camera for the first time in my life. I wanted the serial killer to think my
last name was Smith. I went by a fake name called Claire Smith, and I wanted to just win him over, win his trust with just him looking in my eyes and trusting me. But that didn't work because he didn't trust me initially, and he got very cross that I would not give him my last name, and I was certainly not about to give him my last name nor anybody, so when I wanted when I met with him in the jail, I did tell the deputy, I'd like to go on a tour of the jail, which is an
area I went to. You're not allowed to go as a civilian or even anyone touring that jail cannot go to a certain unit because it's administrative segregated inmates highly dangerous, and they're kept away from all other inmates. So any other unit I cout I could have gone to, but not that one. I convinced the deputy because it was a Sunday, nobody was around in authority. Please let me in. I just want to meet Wayne Adam Ford. I did push the limits, push the envelope, say what you will.
I'm a journalist. You know you've got to push those doors down. And I met with this man and I said, in my innocent way, I had no makeup on and my jacket was done up to my chin. I said, you know, mister Ford, would it be in a fake American accent? Mister Ford? Would it be possible for me to write a story about you? And he said, only if you don't officialize me. I said no, no, no, mister Ford, I won't. And he said, well, what's your name? My name is Claire, my last name is Smith. And
he's looking at me like you're right. And from then on he was determined to find out my last name. And I never gave it up. And I was sitting in the courtroom every day. The media wanted to know my last name. The defense was suspicious it wasn't no last name. They went jailed to find out my last name, but I kind of secretly went in on my middle name. But I did not want my last name out. But then when I was put on the stand in his trial. In the penalty phase, I had to state my name
for the jury. And then of course all the papers got hold of the fact that you know, I do modeling as well and hosting and on TV, and then scandal broke out across the world, and then they made up a romance story between me and the serial color, which is so far from the truth.
Is well, yeah, so was your first daste of the media backlash or yeah, it's not even a backlash, doesn't even make sense, but.
Yeah, the model in the seral Killer. I mean, I can understand for ratings or for you know, getting me people to buy the paper, and but I mean they really rate me through the cold, and it caused a lot of problems for companies I represent, like Lamborghini and Ralph Laurence Hughes and all these companies they put they couldn't have me associated with their car, or with their shoes, or with Harley Davidson. And I was dropped by a number of company because now I'm associated with a cerial color,
which then makes LAMBORGINI associated with a serial color. So it was absolute hell, and I all I wanted was to stay behind the scenes go buy a different name and not even go on camera. So that was my whole point. And then, of course, because I was going to do this whole show with the documentary, people said no, add that to the story. That's what documentaries are. It's saying the truth. It's saying the hell you went through.
So I did, and I exposed it. And this is why I've put myself, my personality, and my life into the book is I want to connect with people from all walks of life so they can see that I'm not oh, going in and asking a bite of questions to a serial color. I wanted to know what hell I went through to get there, and the how I went through during the process. And here I am, you know the world. Here I am for you to pick
out if you want. I'm mostly going to tell you a story and hopefully you can connect enough to steal that you were right there with me.
Yes, I mean this is interesting what you're saying. This is normally not the peruse of journalists. Journalists sometimes the Ten Trials, often the Ten Trials, but very seldom interview the subjects of their books. And you are doing You're going over and beyond that with this. Now, with Wayne adam Ford. Let's get back to Let's get to the crimes of Wayne adam Ford and how he came to the attention of the police.
Well, he was never a suspect, that is the whole point. He had to turn himself in because they weren't looking for him. And he has got tart him. He's not schizophrenic or any of that, but there's a part of him that's got such a strong conscious that he knew what he was doing was that wrong. Everything he was doing was wrong. So he took himself out into the woods so he didn't see any more people that he wanted to kill. And he went out into the woods for days on end and tried to stop this feeling,
this overwhelming feeling to murder. We don't know what that's like being normal people. Let's hope we don't. But we don't know what that overwhelming sensation is. But because of his childhood, because the belieful combination, the leathful cocktail of abuse, of a neglect, of abandonment, of a brain injury at the age of seventeen, all these things get together in
someone's head and their brain and a matap. But later one in life something small or beat could happen, and books you become a math murderer, or a serial killer or a crime of passion killer. And that was weighing Ford's leathful cocktail. But the other side of it is he did not want attention. He did not want the media to know him as any great name, or make up a name on him, or taunt the cops. He did not want to even keep killing. And this is
why he did it. So this is why he is more fascinating than any serial killer I've ever met so far. Hence he is the chapter number one of my book.
Right, yes, now, how did he come to the police's attention? What did he What evidence did he bring into the police station so that he really didn't have to say too much.
He bought in a woman's severed breast into the police station in a zitlog bag and took that out of his pocket and put it on the desk. That was enough to say, I'm obviously not here for robbing a liquor store. I have obviously killed human beings. There's no one I'm not a doctor, you know, I don't do
breast enhancement surgery. I am obviously clearly in army surface outfit which he was out of his mind, but I'm very calmly placed it on the table with his brother by his side, and his brother did not know what he'd actually done. So his brother probably feels guilty for something that he didn't do. But Wanne Ford's intention was to turn himself in and to be with the man he loved on his last day, which is his brother.
And all he could ever tell his brother was I've hurt people, and I know that Rodney kept saying, well, how bad? How bad? And even Rodney, his brother, did not know he had that breast in his pocket until they were in the chair station and it was placed on the table.
Now what in terms of the confessions, how was he eager to give those confessions up? Or how fast did did the confessions come under what circumstances?
Well, the confessions were never as clear as he would expect a serial feller to confess. Who is now in police custody. So what it was was he kept going on and on saying, I've just hurt people, has hurt peopil, I've just hurt so many pupils. He knows never and I have all his belongings so I've seen all the t transcript and there wasn't a time where he said I killed this amount of people. He just can only
say the word hers. And actually a lot of serial killers who speaking the third person, they're not in things, but they'll say the head was buried there, or that person was cut into fifty five pieces, or stabbed thirty eight times. And I used to stay the way in hololize you stabbed said thirty eight times, and it's like, all right, in up already she was stabbed thirty eight times, and I've no, no, no, I want to hear you say it.
Oh no, you stabbed past thirty eight times? Why? And this is where I'm different to a reporter or a journalist or a car because I am not afraid to push these guys to their limits, because they are human like that, and that's what gets the story out. I get them use my language, a bit pissed off with me, I get them worked up, I get them wanting to hang up on this, and then I saw them out. I mean, some of these guys are like kids, but
you've got to get a story. And I'm not going to sit back and let these guys get away with murder with me. He's the point. But I'm not going to let them say, oh, I hurt people. I mean, I understand he said at the beginning, but I'm not going to waste my time hearing at zero killer hurt people. He took four innocent lives and he needs to account for that. And he's got the conscience, he's got it on like a lot of serial killers to say it
for God's sake. And that's where I've got worked out with each and every one of these people who's been convicted of films.
For our audience, that people that don't know about Wayne adam Ford, who haven't heard about him, in fact, people that listen to the show. Caitlin Rother, a guest on the program two or three times now, has written a book called Body Parts about Wayne adam Ford. But what I found interesting is when another author talks about Wayne adam Ford, it sheds all kinds of light on the character that I didn't know, even though I had read
that entire book Body Parts. Now, what I found interesting was some of the things, how one of the body If you don't mind giving this up, because this is very very unique. I mean, for all the books I've read this is a unique aspect. There was body parts missing from one of the one of the corpses was found they couldn't identify because no arms, no legs, no head, But there was a couple other interesting things that were also missing. Tell us what was also missing from one of those bodies.
Well, the mound in between a woman's legs is missing and both breasts is missing. Yeah, is that what you're faring.
Yeah, yes, I've never heard of that extent of mutilation. And I mean there are a few killers that are notorious for that. Uh and and some of the other aspects of Wayne Adam for too. That that they found and you found was something about cooking body parts. Tell us a little bit about that as well. That was found out.
Well, he was left with a body that he had its men lists for the reason to get rid of it. And this was the first person he killed, which is why the lady was not identified. What happened was he did cut the head off and put it in the fridge and then went to work the next day. But he strained the blood out of the body in the battu put the head in the fridge, but he also
cut the breast off to render them. I hope this came out of the trial, because I mean, anyway, he put them to make them smaller in the oven, and then he drained the fat into a coffee can. The mounds between the woman's legs he put in a saucepan. I mean, I think that was really as far as I want to go with that one. I mean, it's quite shocking. I think a lot of it is because I think a lot of it if if it's terrible to say, but it's just intrigue, you've got it in
front of you. You've got to get rid of it. What does one do? So making my aunt to rather vague on this one, I believe that that could have been a lot of part of it intrigue and also to make the person a little bit smaller.
Yeah, so you think there was some interest in anatomy though certainly I.
Think there was an interest in the anatomy.
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Yes, because it was right there. But he found the whole situation so grotestfully far fetched and horrific of what he'd done and what he was left with that if you noticed, he didn't dismember anyone again until the last one went to moove the breast, but he didn't dismember anything, So yeah, I think he learned his lesson on the first but obviously he didn't learn his next lesson. Well, enough.
No, Is it possible for you to read just a little bit of correspondence that you had with Wayne that you include in your book, just for our audience to get a real example of what is offered.
Yes, absolutely, I would love to do that if you'd tell me what page to turn to, and I will. But let me just go back a second if I could. To Kaitlin Rosa. She was a woman in a trial that did her best to get an interview with Wayne Ford, and Wayne Ford refused her. I wanted to help her as much as I could, but because she felt that I was stalking her interview and Wayne, she was very vindictive and made something up about me in that book.
I must say it was settled out of course. It was defaming me and it was not true, and it was proven to not be true because something was written by another person pretending to be me, and that person wanted a response from Wayne, so she wrote a love note that love Nope, never came from me. But poor Katon Rossa didn't know that, and she had one way to slam me in her book because she thought I withheld Wayne from talking to her, which I didn't, and
she slammed me. But she was proven wrong because it was settled out of court financially. So if you read that pliant book, it is so not true.
Okay, you know what, I really do not remember reading that aspect of the book at all, so it didn't resonate with me. I think maybe it's not that I skipped through books, but it certainly didn't register with me that aspect of it. So I think, I don't know.
I think she's a very good right tress. She's written some lovely books which I've read, but I don't think she's ever met a serial killer. But she writes books on other people too, and I find them very interesting. She's a good author, so I'm going to give her respect there, which just that one little paragraphs you wrote I didn't appreciate.
Yeah, you know, I don't want to ever slag any true crime authors because they have their point of view, and if they get close to a subject, they have a certain viewpoint on the offender. It's themselves. But what I find is that I have of the camp from my experience, my research, and my own experience interviewing someone for a true crime book that I considered to be a serial killer, is that I just don't, and I think we can talk about this a little bit later.
I don't side with the psychiatrist, let's put.
It that way.
I just really, I really don't because I think that if under the right circumstance, and again, lots of psychiatrists are just paid well to give a certain viewpoint. And I think that the more psychiatry has a place in the courtroom, the more you're going to have, I think controversial. I think it's going to damage the process itself by having psychiatry have too big a role in the courtroom itself.
Oh that's a good point. I never spose to that. One very interesting point.
You don't see it in America, and I don't know about England, your home, but I know in Canada it's a different thing. But again, people have heard my opinion on this, but this is for a different time. But it's definitely I can see that in America that there's a very hesitation to take very many people seriously in terms of insane and then not responsible for their crimes.
It seems that regardless of whether the person's insane, it comes down to the decision that they knew what the difference between right and wrong and that's the end of it. So that's the end of the argument.
I've started agreement with you. I could call I am Oh you are voiceing exactly what I'd like to So, yes, I agree with you there.
Yeah, we'll talk about that a little bit later once we go through this, and then we'll give reasons why we both think like that. And certainly i'd like to hear what has shaped your opinions on that. But I'm certainly interviewing serial killers surely will have some effect. Now let's talk about the next Let's talk about Happy Face Killer, because a lot of people, a lot of people don't know about him, and how I came to learn about the Happy Face Killer. Killer is the Keith Hunter Jessperson.
A fascinating case and a fascinating killer, one of the most fascinating. So I applaud you for me able to get to talk to this guy, because the late great Jack Olson, one of the best true crime writers of all time, really let Jessperson talk in his book I The Creation of a serial Killer, and you've got some stuff that's just incredible, incredible. So talk about let's talk about Keith Hunter Jefferson.
Yes, I will again a truck driver like Wayne Ford, killed prostitutes like Wayne Ford, but the complete opposite type of serial killer. To Wayne Ford, he is very, very proud of his crime. He enjoyed taunting the cops. He enjoyed the process of getting rid of the bodies and going to truck stops and talking to cops knowing that's a dead woman in his truck. He enjoyed all of the game, the aspect patrawling to the victims and then the getting rid of the body. But the actual killing
he found quite distasteful. I find him the most distasteful passionate ever met out of all serial killer. He's got a sense of humor. But to be proud of killing someone who did not ask for it, you know, it's just terrific for me. So it was very hard to swallow to sit there across from him, seven hours a day at a picnic table, day after day after day, knowing that he was rushing and just telling me it all over again. And I was horrified, But I didn't
show that on the face. He's a six foot eight man, probably three hundred and thirty pounds. Oregon State Penitentiary. I found him interesting because of what I'd read up on him. That's why I wrote him a letter. In writing him one letter I received probably ten back, terribly arrogant, terribly
big ego. No brain injury, which is a surprising no sorry, no regless in his childhood, a bit of abuse because he was teased because he was so tall, not at alcoholic, never take drugs, nothing, nothing that would give a reason for him to be a typical serial killer. Should I say, but a totally distasteful personality. Oh, but I'll say something else.
I forgot to say. He manipulates that system so badly that when he knew I was not going back to Oregon, he told me on the phone, I'm coming to La California. I said, yes, right, I believe it, mister Justerpan. You know I believe it to do.
You know?
Within four months the guy had cost his state nine thousand dollars, and he shoved himself out here with this pretense that he killed in California and he hadn't. And he was used to look at the bodies in the photographs until they slept him out here to California and put him in the riverside jail. Now, if that is not the most master of all manipul manipulating serial klet on Earth. I don't know what is.
He's right up there. The other thing was is that anybody that knows the case knows that, and you should explain this to the audience. Where the first Happy Face Killer came from? Why is he called the happy Face Killer?
But I found it interesting that I did not know your participation in kind of stirring up the muck a little bit in terms of the first confessions, and so you do an admirable job because that's a story I didn't I knew of the two characters, but you shed incredible amount of light on these two characters and their involvement with the Happy Face Killer. Very very interesting story.
So please explain that the couple that were convicted and how on earth that happened when it was the Keith Hunter jesperson, and how he contacted police and why what?
I will definitely tell you everything, And it was the twenty minute story. You remind me of the two people, and I'll tell you everything. I got too many serial pillars and too many stories and too many you know to concentrate on the names.
But yeah, No, the thing is is that he didn't come to the attention of the authorities because the victims were the murder was two people came forward and said, hey, listen. One other time came forward. So that's what I'm referring to.
Yeah, yeah, I know, I know what you're finding. When I was just asking what the name of the girlfriend was because I've just got a mental block right now. A boyfriend and girlfriend. Woman of about sixty five, boyfriend a lot younger, as an alcoholic. Tranya Bennett was a woman of the in the neighborhood. And gosh, this is in the early nineties back in Oregon, Martinoma County. And she was found to be killed. Okay, she was dead. Now the problem is there was some police corruption that
I cannot validate. But I know for a fact because I've got the trial transcripts and the court records and all the documentation. What happened was very suspicious, Okay. And what happened was he killed Tanya Bennett, and he disposed the cart in some heavy brush in Moltinoma County. About a week goes by, they went out on the news that this person had been killed. And this old lady, who has got nothing to do with murder, wanted to get rid of her boyfriend, who lived in the house
and was an alcoholic. Good for thing. It didn't work. She called the cops. She said, my boyfriend did it, and he said, how will have you know? She said, well, I know that my boyfriend did it because of what. Well, somehow she must have been given information because the jeans where the buttons were were cut out, because Keith Jefferson cut the buttons out of Tanya Bennett's trousers when he
disposed of her. So the only people to know that the buttons were cut would have been the killer, Keith Jefferson, the real killer, and the cops. So how would this lady the name escapes me. How would this lady know that the buttons had been removed if she had not been told up by the cops. So the cops said to this lady, she said, he said, you know, we'll come back, you know, because if you find that piece of material that was where the genes had the material removed,
we will then take you seriously. So they came back the next day. After she called them up. She said, I've got that materials. She gave the cops some material and it did not match at the climber. So they said, I'm sorry you too. You know obviously you you you have not a coloma. Her last name was Proloma, Plansky or something. Laverne, Laverne. Her name is Verne. She said, you ob if you weren't, pardon me, because this is a setup. We don't believe you. But she kept calling
the cops. She said I know it, and she got frantic. She said, I know he killed them. That's because I was there. I watched him strangle her and dispose of her. Well, now she's admitting to a murder. So now she and a boyfriend are locked up. John Tasnowski is the name of her Boyfriend's just come to me and they lost him botha Now, Keith Justerson, minding his own bus, is in a truck stop. He sees it in the paper two people have been arrested for the murder of Chinya Bennett.
So he sits there in the rest stop, in the bathroom and he put a happy face saying I'm the real killer of Tanya Bennett and I'm still out here too. He went on to kill seven more people after that. I think he killed eight. He killed seven more people because re enforcement wanted to rush to close the case and lock up the wrong people. Now that is what I think could have happened, but that's pretty much fixed
with what I've seen documented. When years go by and Keith Justicson, they were hot on his tail because he did slip up on writing somebody his name on a pink slip of a car. He then says, by the way, I killed Tanya Bennett. Now this is nineteen ninety eight, versily well nine bench four, my dads might be wrong. So the cop said, no, no, no, no, you did not kill Tanya Bennett. You may have killed d seven, but
you didn't kill Tanya Bennett. We've got two people locked up. Well, Keith Justicson was not going to let someone else take his crime, so he shouted about it and he said, no, I killed Tanya Bennett. And the crops are like, well, look, whatever you do, you didn't kill Parania Bennett. We'll do what you say. You said, have all these bodies that
you killed, but you didn't kill Tanya Bennett. It got to the point where he wanted to prove it so badly that he remembered where he threw the driving license and he's got the man on outside, a very good reporter for the Oregonian newspaper called Phil Sanford, and I believe he wrote Phil's down for the letter and described or some people out on the outside describe whereabouts the driving license was found was buried. He told the cops it was a different direction. He went out with the
cops one direction. They couldn't find this driving license, but he'd written a letter to someone on the outside, and they had a group of scouts, boy scouts find the driving license and in walk Peath Justerson's brother holding the driving license to Tanya Bennett, saying, my brother did kill Tanya Bennett because here's where he threw the driving license. So now a Laverne Paplinet and their boyfriend Johnson Snovski were released from prison after serving a period of time.
And did they ever get restitution. No, neither of them got restitution. And Laverne Kadillac has now since deceased.
Yeah, it's it's the lawyer I saw a couple of years ago. A lawyer said, you know, it was incredible. He said, I had to argue as the first time I had ever argue for my client of about about his guilt. I had to prove he was guilty. It was incredible.
Yeah, it's quite shocking. I mean it's close the case. I mean, they basically let a serial kill seven more people because they didn't do their job that great.
And believe me, I am.
Very pro low enforcement. You know, I'm incredibly pro low inforcement. But they are the occasional cop that doesn't do the best job. And I'm afraid to say whoever that was mentioning their names, I don't think they did the best job because a serial color went out to kill seven more innocent people, and that is no forgiveness there.
Yeah, the one thing you've included in your book too. Again, it's very, very horrifying the crimes of these people. Keith Hunter jesperson. I agree with you that he is the most there's people say lack of remorse. It's way beyond that. It's callous disregard for humankind. That he really did throw
out these women like trash. To dispose of one of the women, he tied her to the undercarriage of his transport and calculated how long it would take and Kay, you know, very much like if he were to have a deer trapped underneath and literally disposed of this woman on the highway, and he thought nothing of it, just washed off the remains and figured that no one would really regard it as anything but roadkill. And he went on his way and spoke very, very candidly and casually about that.
Yeah, Angela Sabreeze was probably the most shocking, awful killing that I'd ever heard about in my entire life. And yes, he went seventeen miles down that freeway, knowing that that would be enough time to make her body disappear, however, and look like roadkill. However, this girl had got a hip operation when she was young, so there was a serial number in the pit of metal in her hip,
and that was what was found. And then that was traced back to where she would last and the phone call that she'd made to her I think, to her boyfriend in Keith Justicson's truck was traced back to Keith Justson his calling card, And that's another thing that tied him to the crime. And that's what started law enforcement looking for him. Was thank god she'd had that hipper operation, or she would have never been found.
You know what, if you could, if you could be so kind, page eighty seven. He talks about angela subrieze in Nebraska. Would you like to read that?
Yeah? Where are we? Like? In January ninety five, I'd kill angela su breeze in Nebraska, Remember the one I dragged under my truck for thirteen miles. She ended up looking like a two legged deer. Anyway, I was strained from my point. Two months after I killed him, I killed Julie Winningham, and a few weeks later, on March the twenty fourth, to ninety five, I turned myself in for Julie's murder. No, not quite. She didn't turn himself here.
But first I sent her letter to my brother Brad, confessing to eight murders in five years, a letter I wish now that I had never written. Arrested in Wilcox's Arizona, they flew me back to Vancouver, Washington's Clerk County Jail. In jail, I was about to get a cash course, a cresh course in proper courtroom procedure, what to do and not to do, move my case along. I was a fast learner. My brother had gotten a letter and
I had called him telling him to destroy it. He didn't destroy it and gave it to the police.
Maybe you can read just after that as well, because he's talking to his brother.
This is the handwritten note that Keith Justerson wrote to his brother Brad PI Brad, seems like my luck has run out. I got into a bad situation and got caught up with emotion. I killed a woman in my truck. I killed a woman in my truck. It looks like I truly am a black sheet. I am sure they will kill me for this. I'm sorry I turned out this way. I have been a killer for five years and I have killed eight people. That's what he wrote to his brother.
Yeah, and he's a happy face killer. Why tell us why?
Because of the day he killed Chanya Bennett and he's waiting to be caught and he wasn't caught. And when he read the newspaper in that truck stoff while he was in the bathroom, he had the two people had been put in prison for China Bennett's murder. So he just wanted to say I'm the real killer. I'm still out there killing. And he just put a smiley face by that. Those words that he put on the on the store of the toilet, that's when he became known.
From that point onwards, he became known as a happy face killer. But also when he wrote letters to taunt the cops saying the same thing, he put the same happy face. So the happy faces were what he wrote when he signed off his name, but he didn't sign his name. He signed and filled his name. He put a happy face.
Now just for you know again, I'm in Canada, I'm naive, and I've I've seen I've heard of this before. Why on earth would they allow anyone, regardless of safety or not, maybe just for why would they allow you to be so up close and personal with a with a monster like Keith Hunter Jasperson with nothing to lose?
I said that to him. I'm going to very upset. I actually did say that to him. Because serial killers do.
Have a victim type.
They nearly always have a victim type, and the ones I've met so far, I wouldn't sit into their victim type. You know, a lot of these people would never kill a child, would never kill an old lady, never kill a young a young man. They'd never kill a girl that doesn't sleep around. They kill mainly prostitutes or mainly gay men, or mainly homeless people, or child molesters. And they don't. They very rarely deviate from the victim type.
So I wouldn't want to sat in a room with no glass with Ted Bundy because he killed college types. I mean, I wouldn't want to do something like that. But he's one of their very few. So when you know the minds of cerial colors and whine in the warped state that they're in, you can somehow try to understand. Although there is no forgiveness and no right, you try to put yourself in their shoes for a moment, you can understand that I wouldn't sit in their victim type even if there.
It is Ryan here and I have a question for you. What do you do when you win?
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Were not necessary dally revoid. Where Ever, if I lost the terms conditions, eight plus met me on the outside.
So I mean, you've got to remember, these guys love their girlfriends, a lot of them. They love their wife, their neighbors, their coworkers, their friends, beautiful girls. They would love anybody. They have their own children, they love their own animals. So they have any opportunity there to kill anybody they want. But for whatever reason, they either hated prostitutes, or they hated gay men, or they just thought that the world doesn't need them. That's their makeup why they
did it. It's mental, but that's the point. It's one type. So this is why I think they are allowed to sit with people and have contact visits. And again, schizophrenic people aren't allowed that because they're not. I haven't met a schizophrenic serial killer. I haven't met a serial killer that doesn't communicate normally, that have had lives with people that knew them that said, oh my gosh, it's such a shock. We thought he was the nicest guy in town.
It fits into that demographic, which is why they're graded sometimes graded a's what they call it. But they are given permission to have contact visits with their visitors. They're not taking drugs, they're not passing drugs, they're not in gangs. They have a victim type on the outside. They don't even have to be urged to kill on the inside, not anyone. So that's another reason.
M hmm.
If you're fitting John Wayne Gacy when he attacked that boy, that's because that boy was John Wayne Gacy's type. You remember that John Wayne Gazy killed thirty three boys and put them on the floorboards. And there was a boy in the outside that wanted to write to John Wayne Gacy, and he kept writing and kept taunting him, kept flirting with him. He got to the close contact level with John Wayne Gacy, and John Wayne Gacy attacked him. I'm sorry, but that's putting yourself in the lion's mouth.
Yeah, And he knew he was being deceived John Wayne Gacy, and that was not something you wanted to do with John Wayne Gacy.
Well, I mean deceive or deceive? I mean, am I deceiving these serial killers by writing about them?
I mean no, what I mean I think that that I think that the young man I mean Wayne Gacy, I mean John Wayne Gacy was homosexual. So if you're if you were going to again flirt as a homosexual then and and if he doesn't think that that's the case, or he doesn't think that the relationship was genuine, that's what I mean. I mean, you're not going in and die. You're not going in and talking to these killers like again potential boyfriend material. I mean, no, that's not what
you're going that's not the premise you're going in. And I know what you mean. I corresponded with someone. We weren't pen pals.
You know, Oh you are pen pals with somebody.
I'm saying, No, I was not pen pals. So I understand if the relationship when you go in to see Keith Hunter, Jefferson, tell us what the premise was. Why did he agree to be interviewed by you?
Because he truly believed and I truly intended to expose the case of Laverne Kavlnik and John Sisnowski and how these two discent people will put in prison for a crime that he committed and he helped and aided in getting them out, and he wanted me to expose that, and I honestly promised him I would and I don't make promises that I don't keep. I promised him I'll do that, but I obviously wanted to know a bit more about what I was focused on. It is why and how and what went wrong to make you kill
all these people. So that was my focus and that was his focus, and I said, I will do my best, and I got both out in my book. And I planned also to do a documentary on the situation where the crops didn't quite they went on the up and up. I wanted to do a documentary to sell a show on that subject, where justice went hopelessly wrong. I wrote
a treatment called Justice Gone Wrong. But what happened was I suddenly get a letter saying I'm no longer allowed to go to the jail, which is why I told Keith, I'm not coming back to Oregon, and he said, fine, I'm going to get myself to California. So that's how it happened. I did say what I promised, but they record the phone line and they knew that I wanted to expose their Dishonesty is really the word.
A lot of these serial kills though too. If you notice they're all fighting for in you know, against Injustice. Meanwhile, they are serial killers. Seems kind of ironic.
Well, I spoke to Wayne Ford on the phone yesterday and he's very happy that the death penalty is in place, believe it or not. And I said, cold on a second, you are a serial killer sitting on death row happy that the death penalty is in place because in California, with the election, it was about to be abolished. I said,
why will you tell me? He says, well, I wasn't given a fair trial the first time, and I'm now going to have another trial to explain that I've got a head injury and all that, and we get treated better and I'm less likely to be killed where I'm not here on death row by another inmate. Because if you remember, Jeffrey Dahmer got killed in the nineties with a toilet brush because he got life in prison without parole. Now, if Jeffrey Dahmer had got the death penalty, he would
have been safer, more protective. It's totally angonic. It massed a sense, but I thought i'd share that with you.
Yeah, very interesting. Now let's talk about Gary ray Balls because I was not aware of this serial killer. So tell us about Gary ray balls and your interaction with him.
Yeah, my interaction with Gary was again, he actually approached me. He's the first serial kaer to approach me. First he saw me on Montell Williams Wantelle Williams Show, and he wrote me a letter and he said he'd likes someone to write a book on him. So I said, I will be happy to try to find someone to write a book. But I don't write books. I actually do on camera stuff. I like to interview people on camera.
So I thought, well, maybe one day I'll write a book as well, and I went out to Florida, went through my background check, hired the camera people, interviewed him on camera, and then I also visited him the following weekend in the visiting area where we sat down at the table from eight am to four pm on both Saturday and Sunday. So I did actually start doctor him for a book in the visiting room and on camera for a potential TV show. When I interviewed him, he
claimed that he killed six homosexual child ministers. I could not believe that he could meet six homosexual child molesters in less than a year. It's maybe he met one or two. And I was going to get to the bottom of it and what I found out, and after realizing that he has a screw loose where he seems to think that homosexual men have to be child ministers, and that is not so far from the troop. It's like saying straight men molested little girls, all of them.
I do believe he meant one man. The first man he killed, I forget the name, but he did put in a videotape because he was this man's roommates, and this VHF tape he put in and saw this guy having sex with an eight year old boys. From that moment it triggered when he was molested as a child by somebody, and he waited for him to come home, and he took a big stone and he killed him. And from then it was just the messiest serial killer that I've ever known. He didn't cover his tracks, he
left fingerprints. He just kept going from faith to place, and he did outsmart the cops. But he's got the lowest queue of any serial killer I've ever met.
But he is the sweetest one as well. I know that sounds hard to believe, but he's got a very sweet disposition because he was filled up with drugs, which drugs and alcohol is just the root of all evil, and he was filled up with that and his wires were crossed from a very.
Young age, believing that homosexual men are also child molesters. And I told him, after he told me the fifth killing and how it happened, I said, for Gary, that wasn't a child molester Number two, three, four, five, and six. They weren't trial with Leicester's. He said, but they would have Waine. I said, how do you know they wasn't then, because naw I could tell that I would have been
a child molester. I said, but you spent ten minutes with them when you were hustling to He was a hustler and he wanted to give a hand jub to some guy for a certain amount of money, and they said, I'm not paying you. So that's when he killed them. He said, there's nothing to do with him being a child monaster. You kill that guy because you were on drugs and alcohol and he didn't pay you the correct amount of money.
You killed that guy because he got wrong with you.
You killed that guy because you just didn't like the way he spoke to you. Where on earth could these people have been child monasters outside of the first one. And he didn't have an answer for me. I said, you hate gay men, don't you, Gary? And that was it. I mean he he just stumbled. I mean, it's the truth.
And you have this kind of stuff on camera too.
I do I have all this on camera? Yeah? Again, explosive interviews of all my hard drives waiting for to put it with a show. Let's just say so, I've got expensive views. Let's they sign to me they're not going to interview with anyone else, and they're very loyal. There's a loyalty that these guys have had. I've known him for about five or the I can guarantee you nobody will ever interview with him because he won't interview with anyone else but me. That goes for Wayne Ford,
that goes for quite a few people. You know, you've got to give a bit of loyalty to receive it. And I always send them a postcard when I go to different places. I know that sounds bad, but I send them a postcard.
I don't write long letters, I don't.
Do any flirting, none of that. But every six eight months, if I'm on a convention or doing a traveling. I will send a postcard and that's it. I do not condone their crimes. I think it's terrific. But to get these people to speak, to really open up, which is what the world we want to know. How these people take You've got to open up a bit of yourself. You kind of got to just treat them shaming humans
because they are. Yeah, and Gary's about to be executed probably next year anyway, and he wants me to.
Go to the execution, so that would be a first.
Experience of my life. And I would go because again four years ago, I made that promise for him, and I do keep my promises.
Wow. Interesting, Yeah, I don't think they'll let you can to take the camera in there though.
No no cameras in the execution cham anywhere in America anywhere.
No, no, no. Now. Another interesting serial killer is this Robert Bobby Joe Joseph Long. So Robert Bobby Joe Long, Bobby Joe, tell us about this person. This is a very interesting guy. Unlike your last person that you said had a very low IQ. This this guy's a lot a very interesting guy. Tell us about Robert Bobby Joelong.
Bobby Long is a very arrogant guy. He loved I think two women in his life love and adored them because they were these respectable ladies if they waited before they slept with him, and he had good relationships with them. However, when it became a stripper that he met or a prostitute, he would wipe them out like they were just trush. And it's horrifically so, and yet he's in denial. He
claims that it was not him. So really, although he sent me numerous letters, he's got really nice handwriting, he's not somebody that I could get anywhere with because he's in denial of doing anything, so I don't be waste my time. But I did bump into him, and I mean that I did bump into him in the visiting park.
They call it the visiting park in Florida Death Row, where we're all sitting at tables, not in a cage like California Death Row, you sit inside a cage with your inmate, but Florida Death Row, you're at tables and there's about twenty and there's one lady at the end, one officer and that's it. And you've got twenty killers with their visitors. Well, because he knew I was visiting Gary ray Boles. He dragged his poor mother from another state to go there that we can for both days.
So we ended up in Lying for lunch, and there I was with Gary and I said, Gary, you know Bobby Bobby, Gary, and they don't like each other. And yeah, I know him from the yard. But okay, all right, you too obviously don't seem to get along, so let's sun that burrito. Anyway, Bobby and I had a chat with him. Gary went back and sit down, and then I find out that you're not allowed to talk to other inmates, but you know, I had a chat with him, and then I chatted with his mother and he looked
very like his mother. And then I went back and start with Gary. So yeah, there was a few serial coillors in the room that day. I met three of them. I forgot the last name of the other one, but not a likable character. Know. He asked me to wear a blue dress, or do wear a blue dress? I wore a red one, just because I do not want to be told what to do by a serial color. I wore a bright red one, not an ounce of blue on it. And he can blue on me with
my eyes. You know. That's it. So they can tell me other people what to do, but they're not going to tell me what to do.
Yeah, I guess not. Now, why is Robert Long in your Why Why did you deem it necessary to put him in your book? You say that he really couldn't get any headway with him. Why did you choose to include him in the book? Then?
Ah, because I spoke to a lot of crops surrounding his case. I've got some of his child transcripts, and he'd written a lot of letters. So I included him in my book because I'd met him, I had a lot of correspondence with him, and I know people around him in law enforcement that would tell me about how horrific he was. So I thought I found him an interesting guy. But he was one that says he's a serou pulat, that he didn't do it at all. Yeah, I feel he's very guilty, very guilty.
What was he convicted of and what was his signature? Like, what was some of the horrific aspects of the crimes that he did commit?
Well, I mean he takes it was always strippers and prostitute and he would strangle them and he would beat them up. I don't think he had a signature. I don't think he had a specific signature. He was not nessy. He covered his tracks well and again typical. He quite had quite a high IQ from what I remember. But
that's that wasn't the most intriguing of my book. But I can totally number five if you want to go there, because I do want to go to Robin Ghex because I must say I put him in my book because he's been convicted and he's been charged with and he's accused of being the leader of the Chicago Rivers. I sat with this man, I know him well, and not just that. I've got all histrial transcripts, and I really
really do find it very suspicious that things changed. And the reason he's there is on the eyewitness testimony of one of the prostitutes that survived when her breast were being cut off and she in a drunken state, you know, meaning she had just come out of surgery to put
the breast back on. Picked Robin get out of the lineup due to the shirt he was wearing, and only that, and I believe the real perpetrator who has who is the real perpetrator wasn't actually the last one I believe to be executed in Illinois before they did away with the death penalty. I think that person did it. And what happened was Robin Gheky's not a likable man. He's not likable. And I can see that he was the boss of a number of guys and it was the
employees he had that committed the crime. But Canada boss in now, I am just saying that this is I do not believe that robn't Get was the one who orchestrated those killings. He had a wife, and I believe he was home with his wife. I know his daughter, and he was a very good husband and a good father. And I'm truly in my heart or what I'm saying is I think there is grounds to open up another trial and to test his DNA. And he sat there for now thirty years with a ninety year sentence waiting
to get his DNA tested. So he's you know, he's not likable because he's pretty angry. He's pretty angry. But you know what if I was innocent of the crime that I've been convicted of and I am sitting there with fifty sixty seventy more years ago, I'd be pretty angry too. So my point is I would like to find a way to get the DNA tested, but they don't want to do it because too many people say they're innocent when they're not.
Well.
I've sat with that guy for five straight days, hours and hours an hour again at a table, no glass, no cage, no nothing, and I firmly believed that there's a lot of suspicion around him as well. Maybe he did not have anything to do with it. So that's what I wanted to say on that one. It's quite important.
What was the Chicago for our audience and myself, what was the Chicago rippers? What was the crime? Referring to tell us about the details of the crime.
In the early eighties, there were four men going around killing prostitutes in the Chicago area. Their signature was they were cutting off both breasts or one breast when they were left for dead. Well, most of these ladies died. One survived, Beverly Washington. I have tried to track it down, and obviously he cannot because she has since died. I found out through law enforcement she has passed away, but
years later and that's what. There were two brothers involved that worked for Robin Ghek, So of course the two brothers are on each other side. One was executed for the crime. One is in jail and I don't know if they received a plea deal, but he is due to be released in the next five to ten years of being part of the Ripper Crew. They called them the Chicago Ripper Crew, a group.
Of serial killers, and they say the alleged leader of the pack was Robin Ghekt, and I.
Do not believe that that is the case.
Now, this case has affected you in as far as that you are dedicating a fair amount of your time and focus on the wrongly convicted. Maybe just explain that for us.
Yes, that's where most of my focus is right now, is on the wrongly convicted. Inspired by a man in Oklahoma death row who I met in twenty ten by the name of Jeffrey David Matthews, I will put my name to the fact that I know he was innocent. Man, I know one, not ninety nine percent. This is where I'll put everything on this. I did get help in getting him three days of execution. I proved that this person had no motive to kill his uncle. I proved
who probably did. And I also found the arresting officer from seventeen years before who went on camera for me saying about the corruption in Oklahoma at the time. And I sent this to the governor, the Lieutenant governor, the ACLU, the kevil Lemancy Board, the Pardon and Parole Board, and I sent it five days before he was scheduled for his first execution. Then he received a thirty days day. I came up with more evidence within those thirty days. Then he got a sixty days stay. I got in
three stays. I became close friends with his mother. I did everything I knew in my powers to come up with what the defense hadn't and I did it. And I was dealing with a lovely governor called Governor Brad Henry Well. In twenty eleven, Jerry, I think the seventh a lady justah And took over and she'd seen that Jeffrey David Matthews had received three stays of execution, and on Channel's eleven's twenty eleven, she executed an instant man. And I'm telling you he was innocent.
Wow.
And this is what has compelled me and inspired me to go on to the innocent people in this country today, because believe me, there's a lot on death rose and there's a lot with life in prison. And if anyone is going to find those people, it's going to be me, because I'm going to dig deeper than anyone's ever gone before, because this is what I do.
Yes, I applaud you for that. And you know you're not the first journalist and author who's come on the program to talk about I mean, there are the padd O'Connor is has come on a couple of times. He has written books about the wrongfully convicted. In fact, he introduced me to a gentleman that's on November twenty eighth, mister Griffith, and he anyway, not wrongfully convicted, but we're talking about the wrongfully convicted and just in general injustice.
You know, our judicial system is a beloved system. We cherish it, we want it to protect us, protect us from these monsters. And yet at the same time we know of numerous cases and America is rife with this, that there's all kinds of students in universities working for nothing, for free, dedicating their time and energy to the wrongfully convicted, and there's enough cases there and enough information. Of course, no one approaches these things frivously. They want to know
that there is a really good case. And I applaud you too. When you read all the trial transcripts, it's an incredible the amount of information it's contained therein And how many people don't review those transcripts. In fact, all the appeals, they wouldn't go through all the transcripts of the trial itself. That's not really what the appeal process is. So it is a very interesting what you're doing on behalf of some of these people that you are firmly convinced are innocent.
Yes, I really do, and thank you for that. That's where my heart really, really truly lies. I mean, one person executed out of one hundred is one person too many. It just cannot happen. And if I'm the one to help stop it and make a.
Big old noise and be a troublemaker and ruffle feathers.
Yeah I'll do it. I'll do it because it's saving someone's life and giving them back to their families, which is where it belongs. But I want to fight for them to get restitution as well.
Right now, the thing is this serial killer is up close and very personal. You've talked a little bit about some of the people that have criticized you, and especially in one particular case we spoke about this evening, But in general, what is the what are you finding in terms of with this book that came out a while ago and actually in twenty eleven, but with this book, what kind of response have you gotten and in terms of attitude wise, in terms of interviews that you've had
about this book. As for people's perception changed since you've written this book.
Yes, it's because of the media making up some terrible lies and stories on me. The book gave me the credibility back that I've always had and the reputation, the pristine reputation that I've always had and built up. So the book was good. I have I respond nearly to everyone that writes to me on my website that is the Victoria Restore dot Com, and I respond if it's
good or if it's bad. But I honestly, I get usually ninety eight percent of people writing really good things, and I respond in exactly the same way as I responded Mius two percent to say, are you sick? You're talking about these people that nobody is the world I want to know about. And I write back and I explained here's why I do it. And I've had some lovely responses back from the people that attacked me originally and said, I'm sorry to be hard on you. I
didn't mean too. I've said, no, no problem. It's a subject matter which I expect people to be mean and hard. But you know what, we can't hide these people away forever, because then when are we going to ever learn as to what forms these horrific monsters if there's not someone like me writing about it, or incredible networks like Investigation Discovery, which is based on just that. People are addicted to investigation Discovery. That's why they think ideatic. I mean, I'm
addicted to that network. You know. I'm not making this stuff up. I'm not writing books, you know about the wallpaper. I'm writing books about what the public wants to know, what they want to read, and what they want to watch. And there's a fascination that will always be there. But the underlying fascination, which I'd like to think is redeeming, is that we really want to start these monsters from
being made. I don't believe it form like this. I think they're formed and made with a childhood that's neglected, and they're abandoned and abusive. And this is why I think I'm little help just asocting, but not be even more of a bigger help when I go after those innocent people. Trust me.
Well, I don't want to play devil's advocate. But for those you know, what is the difference between what's the difference between pushing these killers for information while at the same time, you know again, you can blow the myth away making all this money from writing about this. Is there some balance between the incredible wealth you're making from
writing true crime? You know again, tongue in cheek, but the benefit of interviewing these people, who lots of times obviously want to talk, even if it's just to you. They still not every killer wants to say anything about
their crimes. For those that say, you're just giving these people a venue to be able to wallow in their narcissism and their need for celebrit what exactly do you believe if you haven't gotten it already, what do you think you can believe and ascertain from interviewing these people?
Because every single serial killer, math murd or a crime of passion, killer gang them with killer.
Satanic worship of a.
Killer is so different. Even in the group serial killers is themselves are so different. It's the most bizarre mindset on earth. You learn from each of them every day and you learn that this life and what I've learned is human connection is the most important thing in life. And each and every one of them has something common, and that's called they've become isolated. Isolation comes from not saying hello to someone when you walk into a gym
or a coffee shop. Isolation comes when the world ignores you and then you could end up an aborted state of reality or go around killing people to feel powerful. We are losing the connection with human beings in the world today. I've got with these iPhones and these Facebook accounts and tweeters and twitters. I'm not on Twitter what it is, but it's something all of this people can't communicate anymore. So therefore there's no human connections and a
lack of it's going to be recording isolation. I want to bring back the connection with human people. I want to bring that back, and if I really can bring it back to a few people there are going to be happier people. They'll be less depressed people, less isolated people, less people having an altered state of reality or hateful because if you bring someone out of isolation, they really
don't have much to hate. Because when weigh a's a truck driver and keep justice in the truck driver, they're isolated in the world of their own with no one to talk to, and they confester in their desia sports. But yet can't fester if you're always connected to human beings. So I feel that by learning so much about these killers, talking to them one on one, going in deep, I've learned and involved myself because my goal in life is also to bring back that human connection with people. So
that's another reason as to why I do it. And I haven't made worldly well for my book. I can assure you it's not the rage of the book ten fifteen years ago, I was about twelve, maybe, but I you know what I mean. But anyway, so this is why there's many reasons as to why it is a fascinating subject. But as I said, I'm also branching out into other areas of where I think the whole world would want to know about and that's really the people who've been serving times for a time they didn't connect.
That's a much much more vast audience, and it's a much more interesting, redeeming thing for me to write about next time.
And yeah, and it's not like you've just done this and scratched the surface. You've you've for contacted twenty of these serial killers. You've gone in depth, You've you've really rolled up your sleeves and done some incredible research getting the kind of information that's contained in this book, the kind of just gripping stuff coming right from these monster's
own mouths. We talked just briefly about psychiatry, so I'll just go back to it because I think it's important because in your very first chapter you talk about a doctor Berg and he was talking about Wayne adam Ford and he was saying he didn't believe that he really was aware during the murders of what he was doing, and he was like automatic pilot unconscious. Of course, I know from my experience that this is a consciousness that
are unconscious, but not like the dictionary version. It's a different one where you certainly are physically medically conscious, but apparently legally and psychiatrically unconscious. Again, I wanted to talk about not so much because what's interesting about America. A difference in Canada is then a fraction of one percent of all murder cases are deemed someone's deemed not criminally responsible.
And unlike what some people's perception is, there really isn't a lot of people ever that are put into mental institutions and let out a few years later, just let out free and to be able to walk and maybe possibly reoffend. But what we were talking about is that is your reaction in the book. And you add your own voice. Obviously, you are a character in this book, all your adventures going through prison security, trying to get
around the rules. Like you say, you're a journalist. You do what you have to do to get things done. But you did talk about your conclusion as opposed to doctor Berg with Wayne adam Ford. So tell our audience what you think about that assessment, the psychiatric evaluation or assessment. And after interviewing Wayne adam Ford and all the people in your book, what is your conclusion about that you wrote about in this first chapter.
Even I think I'm getting what you're saying, I'm going to go with what I think you're thinking has stop me if I'm wrong. But doctor Burg is a great forensic psychiatrist or psychologists, and he analyzed Wayne in the way that he was trained to analyze way you can't be trained to communicate. And that's the talent that I have, and it's a good one, and communication with people opens them up to really a lot more than what a
psychiatrist can learn. So I understand that doctor Bird did put Wayne in that category that he I think he blacked out at the time, But you know why did he black out? How much did he black out? We weren't there, so I don't know if I'm answering your question correctly. I'm doing my best here. But what point was he blacking out? Or was he saying that he blacked out? Because you know, everyone's responsible for their actions and if their schizophrenically should be punished just as much,
it makes no different. But I'm with you on that, But I don't really know the question what you're saying. I mean, the analysis that I come up with is just having human communication. I don't have this. I have not been trained in a psychiatrists. It's farther on me. I'm not saying that I'm, you know, highly intelligent, because I'm not. I'm just able to communicate, and I'm really good at getting people to open up to me. So that's where I probably got a lot more out of
Wayne than any doctor ever could. And that includes all the people in my book and more. So that's where I'm coming from. I don't ever answer your question.
Well, basically, you know that the psychiatrist had this. He's not responsible because of course he can't remember. And again you say, he interviews him for a few hours and then he makes this assessment that's totally unprovable.
Well, I don't believe a word of it. I don't believe that. I don't agree with that. How do you keep working out killing someone? I don't understand that. That is something about Wayne I do not understand, and I've never focused on it. I focus on he turned himself in from him mors. I think that's ridiculous. I mean, who kills somebody and forgets about it? The only way, the only reason a person should kill him up as human being is only in self defense, nothing else, no
reason for it. We need to bring fact, the love to this world and not the hatred. I mean really, I really don't know why psychiatrists want to put them in a box, because no human being is worthy of going in a box because we are all so different, every one of us and chillers included. So it's just you can be trained what you want, but you're not going to get out of the serial killer what I can or a person.
Well, I think there's just a move towards believing somehow that you can fully comprehend the mindset of these people that you and I and the researchers and the authors and the academics have not been able to figure out. Of course, we can see here's maybe a recipe for disaster. Here's some things that you know, again, isolation, neglect, abuse, alcoholism, drug use, incest, poverty, you know, no stability in terms
of home life, you know, witnessing horrific events. But then again, there's a multitude of people that have experienced far worse and are ordinary, productive, regular citizens. So again it's it's not like psychiatry steps in there like they can offer an explanation and I won't go too far into it, but in Canada we actually believe that we have now psychiatric rehabilitation and if you do a little bit of research about the person that killed on a greyhound bus
and cannibalizes victim. This person, after three years, is walking with an escort outside the institution with the promise of unescorted visits in a short period of time. It's like psychiatry, the psychiatric industry in Canada is trying to turn this pert into a poster boy for psychiatric rehabilitation and reintegration
into society because he'll never face the charges. He's not criminally responsible because of insanity, and in a short period of time they were marveling at his response to these Again, I think it's ridiculous. Antipsychotic drugs.
Oh my gosh, I am in such shock. I've got to get myself up off the floor in my chair. I know about this case. That guy should have been shot at the I cannot believe you're telling me this. This guy does not deserve to greeth another day. I know about the case, and I just forgot about it because it was what.
A year or two ago, it was three years ago. But I don't agree with the you know, I think there should be a difference between the hunter jesspersons and this person, and very much I can agree with the insanity if it's proven. You know, there are some people that have done some incredible things and they are insane. But again, I still think you have to be responsible. And I just do not see the difference. It's like rehabilitating a serial killer or rehabilitating an insane killer. And ironically,
I have a program next week. Shavender Sem, a person who was accused of murder deemed not criminally responsible in the US and Iowa, I believe, is released and has written a book. He's gonna be on the profile. So I'm you know, I'm maybe I'm going to hear him out. I'm going to listen to his argument, and there is
differences in the degree of again detachment from reality insanity. Again, I have an open mind, but this is where I have less of an open mind, especially when I see a case and I see the development of psychiatric defense in Canada. So I'm not to say America, watch out for the liberalization of your courts, but if it gains ground anywhere in any jurisdiction, you can be assured that some defense lawyer is going to try to trot it out in another jurisdiction.
I know it's pathetic in this country too. It's pathetic in England too. And let me tell you that that horrible human being, Jared Loser, who tried to kill that darling Giffet lady and kill the all those innocent people and the child as well, that guy went to court last week and he did not get the death penalty. I don't know what this world is coming to. They are all rolling over because they yell at they're weak.
I think that Keith Justinson, Jared Lotna, your guy in the bus, all of them have to be held responsible for what they do equally. It makes no difference that they don't need to be proven to be criminally insane. They killed an innocent person. We don't need to waste our time to find out if they're criminally insane. They kill them and it's a person. It's done. It's done. We don't want to we don't want them to ever
come out of the building again. It's not even for a breath of fresh air, like you're saying, guys walking around the back ground. He doesn't deserve to. I don't agree with the death penalty because they can get it wrong. So so I'm not saying that I'm just saying cases like this they should not see the life of day. Equally, I don't care, insane or not, I don't care.
And that's well, that's my that was my opinion until till it I have any kind of evidence to disprove that, because I am just not confident at all. Number one of our rehabilitation of killers too, the idea that that there is such a drug to render this person harmless, I see. I've never seen any evidence of that, and that's that's where I stand on that. And in terms of death, definitely I do not agree with it, because again,
you can get it wrong. And in terms of if life in prison is not enough, then I think that the people who criticize that have certainly not done very very little time in prison. I would think if they're if they're thinking that again, I just talked about it last week. The threat of imminent death, like Jeffrey Talmer experienced, it is something that these people live with every day. So there is no picnic in prison for killers. I really don't think there is.
There is there is. I hate to say it. I'm not going to tell you what goes on in California. I'm not going to say that at other places, but in some prisons there are yet Flora and Texas there is not. So there's a little bit of a picnic going on in certain areas, let's just say that. And again, they should have these family members. It's the most important people in the world, of the family members of the victim. And they do not want to know that there's a
picnic out there. They really don't. And I know I write books on it. Someone actually almost contradicting myself, but I'm really doing it to learn and to teach other people and to show other people. But seriously, they should not be famous for this as all nobody, none of them should. But they should all be locked up and definitely the key thrown away. And I mean that with insane, not in say mis no different.
Yes, well, Victoria, it's fantastic speaking with you tonight. Your book serial Killers up close and very personal, your death Row interviews with the most dangerous men on the planet. This is an eye opener and incredible read, and you get if you want to get close to a serial killer, it really is via Victoria Redstall, because she's right there in the room admonishing these killers for an explin asking
for an explanation for their horrific murders. I applaud you if you're one brave cookie here and you've brought us a great, great, great story, and I applaud your new sort of direction. I'm sure you won't give up on the serial killers, because they certainly won't give up on you. But I applaud you in your new direction. I look forward to your next project, which should be right around the corner, no doubt. But thank you very much.
Thank you for having me on the show, and I great you appreciate you inviting me to be on your show, so thank you to that.
Thank you very much, of Victoria. You have a good evening, you two.
Okay, bye bye, good night, good night, good